Mariah: Now that I've seen this world, I think things are so much different. But back then I felt like I had to be so angelic and virtuous and you know, all of these things that are looked at as you the perfect innocent girl. And that's kind of what I tried to portray for a long time. Even though I had a lot of desires and was super curious and wanted to flirt and wanted to make out.

Fernanda: You were polycurious.

M: I was very, very, very polycurious. Yes.

F: Hi everyone. Welcome to Polycurious, the podcast for people who are curious about non- monogamy. Before we start with our first episode, I wanted to tell you a little bit more about myself and about why I decided to start this podcast. So my name is

Fernanda. You might have noticed by my accent that I am from Mexico and I came to New York about four years ago to do my master in journalism. As soon as I arrived I randomly met some people who were in non-monogamous relationships and became really good friends with them. Even though I was single at the time, they introduced me to the non-monogamous community in Brooklyn. I had just come out from a long term relationship and kind of figuring out what I wanted to do next and I learned a lot from seeing how my friends managed their relationships and from the conversations that I had with them and I continued to learn from them even now as I navigate my own non-monogamous relationship in which so far I'm the only one who is non-monogamous. My hope is that you find those conversations helpful as well, whether you are in anon-monogamous relationship already and are looking to find out how other couples are doing it or even if you've never experienced non monogamy but you are curious about it.

In this first episode I chat with Mariah, who is my best friend and is also going to be a, uh, co-host. In some of the episodes of this podcast we talk about her journey in non-monogamy and her current relationship. We talk about stigma around non-monogamy and why coming out to one's family can be hard, which is the reason why she decided not to use her full name for the podcast. She even tells us a little bit about going to a play party for the first time and how that was like.

I absolutely love Mariah and I really enjoyed our conversation so I really hope you do too. We have here my best friend Mariah. So I'm very excited for you guys to start learning a little bit more about non-monogamy first, would you like to introduce yourself in whatever way you'd like?

M: Yeah, absolutely. So my name is Mariah. I, um, actually have been in a open poly relationship for the past three and a half years. I have a hard time defining it myself, so I'm not even really sure what to call it. But, uh, yeah, I'm really excited as well. I've always been super curious about just this whole world. I mean, especially once you kind of get introduced to it. There's so much to really unpack and to learn about. And, you know, I'm really excited to dive in and not only just to share my story, but to learn from others as well. So thank you for having me.

F: As far as you feel comfortable, uh, can you tell us about yourself? Not yourself, but, like a little bit about your background?

M: Yeah. So, Mariah. Yes, that's my name that I'm using for the podcast. And that's because just to kind of bring back to who I am. And, um, all of that is I come from a family that's very conservative. And, um, it's just difficult to think that people will find out without me having the conversation. So I'm not necessarily out of the closet about being open or polyamorory. Um, it's difficult because half of my family knows. My mom and I have such a great relationship. I've always told her everything, and I mean everything. Not only am I poly, not only am I not monogamous, whatever you want to call it, I also go to sex parties, and this is something that I feel very comfortable sharing with her. She might just be like: "Okay, that's enough information for right now," and then we'll have to revisit it later. When I first told her about it all, I think I kind of just like, word vomited because it was. It's hard.

F: You were nervous.

M: I was nervous, yeah. And I talk a lot when I'm nervous. It was difficult, for sure. Um, but she definitely listened. But then she was like: "Okay, hold on, hold on. Let's just take a break. Let's visit this another time." And we did. The next time I brought it up, it was a very easy conversation. She has always been really good about letting me know where her boundaries are.

F: Well, I'm just surprised because I thought our moms were very similar and my mom is like the opposite. I haven't actually talked to her about me going to play parties. Sex parties, play parties, however you want to call them, because I feel like she'd, uh, have some sort of, like, stigma around it, I'm not sure. But in general, she. I'm sure if I did, she would want to know every single detail.

M: Yeah. So it has shifted over time, I think. Again, it was just kind of like that initial introducing because it's a whole her world and then actually opening up other people's minds that: "Oh, this actually does exist." Even though you might have watched the Eyes Wide Shut or whatever, and you have this idea of what a play party is, it's actually not like that. Or well, some of them are like that, I guess. Um, yeah, no. So I think that it was just a lot for her at once. So there was a few times, but now I'll tell her pretty much anything. Um, you know, I don't get into like, the nitty gritty details of the sexual things, but I'll let her know if I'm going to a party and like, if I met someone that I'm crazy about or whatever, I definitely share that with her.

F: That's awesome that you can have that relationship.

M: Yeah. But then on the other side, like my father's side, you know, they were divorced when I was you four maybe. I don't know. So with, um, with my father, it'just I don't know. Part of me feels like he might accept it, um, or just wouldnt t want to know. I don't know. Its'really hard to tell. Its not even necessarily about him so much as it is my whole family on that side. Um, know. So, yeah, I just, I have a hard time being completely open about it. Um, and then my professional world, I am in an industry that know is white male dominated, uh, mostly by older white men. And I'm really like the 1 or 2% being a female in the industry.

F: Wow, 1 or 2%?

M: Yeah. It's a very small amount of people who are in the industry who are female. And uh, yeah. So it's just tough because especially I worked for the family business before for seven years in the same industry. I've now just recently switched over to a new company, just recently. And it's LGBTQ friendly. I mean, it really. I feel a lot more at home there. So now I'm starting to feel a lot more comfortable with being open about it and sharing more, which is why I'm open to being on the podcast. Um, but yeah, I still haven't crossed the line of letting my father know and with that, letting that whole side of the family know.

F: Yeah, a little bit more pressure, right?

M: Yeah. And I just can remember there was like a specific moment where I told my sister about my boyfriend when we first met. Uh, his name is Logan. And when we first met, we weren't official, we weren't exclusive for six months. And that was our choice. And that's kind of how we got introduced to being open, um, is because I just got out of a really bad relationship. So I wanted to be single, I wanted to date around. I wanted to see what that was like. And then I met Logan, who'this incredible guy I fell in love with pretty much immediately. But I had made a promise to myself to be single for six months and to date around, and I wasn't at stick to that. And so when I told my sister that, yeah, I really like this guy, he's incredible, but, yeah, I'm also dating these other guys and, you know, whatever. She was like, if you love him or if you really like him, what are you doing? Like, in a way, it kind of just made me feel really bad about the decision to continue to date, even though I really liked Logan. So that always I am always just kind of reminded of that. Anytime I think of sharing.

F: No, I can totally identify. Um, actually, I have, uh, somewhat the benefit that my mom and I guess most of my family doesn't speak English. So even if they were to find this podcast, they couldn't really understand what we're talking about. So, you know, just putting that out there, you know, if things were different, uh, maybe I wouldn't use my name. I don't know.

M: Well, that's something I always ask people to, um, you know, not only what is your relationship like, and, you know, what is it? Cause it is very interesting.But does your family know?

F: Yeah, I feel you. I mean, what my family has said, uh, especially my mom, is like, kind of like telling me I'm gonna lose. I'm gonna lose my boyfriend.

M: So does that mean, like, you came. out?

F: When I've mentioned I want to be in a relationship like that, I mean, I am to a certain extent. I haven't fully shared the details of how that works. So for everyone listening, I have a, uh, boyfriend who I love dearly. We've been together for almost two years now, and he is just, I don't know, the perfect boyfriend. I mean, obviously no one's perfect, but he's just so understanding and loving, and even though he is not interested at this point on being with other women, he understands.

M: Or men.

F: Or men. Well, I don't know if he could go that way, but, you know, maybe in the future. But, you know, he understands that even though that's not what he necessarily wants, that's what I want. And that's also. I found pretty rare. So, you know, I think the fact that I'm a woman adds to it. So whenever I tell people, people are like, what? I don't feel like it's the same reaction that I would get if I was a man. You know? Um, I think there's this preconception that the man is always the one that wants to be in the open relationship. And in my case, that's not true. So we were talking about this because when I started dating Seth, uh, and I told my mom about it, and then I'm like: "Yeah, but I want to be in an open relationship." She could be like: "Oh, Fernanda. Like, no, I mean, that doesn't work. Don't do that." Like, kind of like. Like they see. Like, it's a face.

M: That's actually something that my mom said, too. It's just a phase, you know? And I don't think that she believes it anymore. Um, I think that when you first introduce someone to it who isn't used to it, that's kind of the first reaction is, oh, it's something they're trying out, something they're curious about. Which it might be.

F: It might be that I've never said no, but I'm like, that doesn't take away the fact that I want it right now. Right. You know what I mean?

M: Right. Exactly. Like, saying it's a phase means that you will get over it.

F: No. Yeah. It means, like, don't give importance to it. Don't ruin your relationship over it. Which is what they tell me, kind of.

M: Yeah. Well, something else my mom said that I'm just now remembering, because it has been so long and we have come such a long way, was that. Does he actually want that?

F: Right. People are incredulous about it. Like, they underestimate.

M: Yeah. I mean, and it's also because, yes, they're underestimating your partner, but also it's kind of like underestimating your judgment of that person. So I think that frustrated me more even than her saying that this is just a phase, or is it just a phase or asom me? You know, I'm very lucky that my mom has always been very, um, open to me sharing things. And she usually asks rather than tells me, but she, a lot of times was like, I don't know that he actually wants it and that he's just going along with it because that's what you want, and he just wants to be with you.

F:: And have you asked yourself that as well?

M: Yeah, yeah, I mean, ah, definitely at the beginning. I think that we're very, I mean for the moment we're very clear about what we want.

F: Let's backtrack a little bit. So tell us how you first became interested in non-monogamy.

M: Yeah, well, like I said, I feel like I've always kind of been dancing with the idea to go way back in, uh, my college days. I actually had this guy that I had dated for like four years, was madly in love with him, but then was going to college and was just like I need to, I need to explore myself again. I need to figure out. And then I met somebody else. I ended up breaking up with both of them to basically have a relationship with both, but I had to break up with both of them to be able to have that. So my second boyfriend, um, we were together for four years. So it started in high school and then it went into college. And then in college I met another guy who I ended up breaking up with my original partner and then having a relationship with this new guy and realizing that's not what I wanted either. And then once I broke up with him, I was kind of back with my ex and with him. They all knew about it.

F: They knew about it. And what did they say?

M: Yeah, I mean, uh, they didn'really they couldn't say anything because I wasn't with either of them. And then I also, you know, would go to a party and hook up with someone else or not hook up but like, you know, make out or whatever. And uh, yeah, everyone knew I was always super flirty. Like I'm just a friendly person and that can be read as flirty and then I feed into it sometimes. So, you know. But yeah, no, I think that at the time they didn't obviously like it and they thought I was being manipulative when in reality I was just doing exactly what it was that I wanted. And they all knew about it. So if they chose to engage with me, that was their choice.

F: Oh my God. See that's what I've encountered too. And that's why one of the reasons why non- monogamy is appealing to me because I'm also a very friendly person and it doesn't mean that I necessarily want to have sex with every person I meet. But you know, being a flirty woman, or however you want to call it, you just want to engage with people and then that can come across as you being a slut. Yeah. You know, and I feel like I've struggled with that, you know, because even if I don't want to have sex with someone, but let's say I have a boyfriend, I'm at a party and I, uh, get approached and then I start talking to this person and then I go and talk to this other person or whatever that can already be judged, you know, like, why is she, why has she spent half an hour in that corner talking to that guy when she has a boyfriend, you know?

M: Yeah.

F: That's how people see it. And it's really hard to deal with that judgment.

M: Yeah. And I feel like also now that I've seen this world, like I think things are so much different. But the person that I thought I had to be back then, I mean, even though I was having these like two non official relationships, whatever, back then, I felt like I had to be so angelic and virtuous and, you know, all of these things that are looked at as the perfect innocent girl. And that's kind of what I tried to portray for a long time, even though I had a lot of desires and was super curious and wanted to flirt and wanted to make out with people.

F: You were polycurious?

M: I was very, very, very polycurious. Yes. Yeah. But I didn't even. Again, I didn't know what it was at that time.

F: And when was a point in which you kind of like crossed that line of admitting to yourself that that was like a thing that you were interested in?

M: it was after my last relationship. Um, you know, I've just been in a lot of very toxic relationships, you know, where I felt like I really couldn't have friends. I didn't feel comfortable having friends, girls or guys, especially guys. But, you know, just having friendships in general. And, um, yeah, just in a place of not being able to be myself and not being able to be the social person that I am. Um, so after my last relationship, I won't get into the details of that, but I really felt that I again needed to date other people and actually see what other people are like because I felt like I was getting in a routine of dating the same type of guy, of jealous and controlling and all of these things. So I've decided to break away from that and date as many people as I can before I decide who my next big relationship was going to be. So then when I met Logan, literally I met Logan the day after I decided that. And when we met, I was like: "Wow, this guy is really incredible." But I told him right away, listen: "I just made this promise to myself, so I'm going to be dating other people. I really like you. I would love to continue this conversation, but just know that this is going to be a thing." So when six months passed and we had been talking every single day and falling more and more in love with each other as that went, as I was dating other people, it was just a natural thing that we then kind of were like, maybe we should just try being open. Like we can be official and still have it like it is, because we really enjoyed it. Um, he was not dating at the beginning. You know, that was very much my thing and my exploration. He knew that he didn't want that and he was fine with me. With me dating at the time.

F: Yeah, and I think that's important. You know, I was thinking about it, um, I was listening to an interview and then this woman who I actually really admire was talking about how she's only had sex, you know, officially with her husband and how they started dating when they were like teenagers. I mean, if that's your situation and that works for you and you are happy being monogamous with that one person and just fucking one person your whole life, that's great. But I honestly feel like for me, that period, I also had a similar period kind of in between boyfriends, in which I was like: "Okay, I just need to date. I just need to see what's out there and kind of explore not only in terms of relationships, but maybe also my sexuality." Right. Because when you are with different partners, you kind of like learn also what you like, what you don't like, both sexually and in a relationship. So then you are better able to be afterwards, like: "Okay, this is the type of person I want. This is the type of sex I want." And I don't know how other women who don't have that period of exploration and kind of dating around and stuff, how can they be sure that whoever they're with, that's the person they really want?

M: You know, I totally get that because I think the same thing. Like, I don't understand how that could be possible. But just because I don't understand it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. So I do understand that there are people who are like that. Not that I understand it myself, but yeah. And if that works for them, that incredible. But what I know is that it doesnt t work for me. And I know that I’m constantly changing what that is for me too. You know, it's not that Ive ve decided that I'm open and that's going to be what I am for the rest of my life. I don't think that I can go back to monogamy, but I need at least the option of being open so that I can date when I'm ready and also take a pause when I'm ready as well.

F: Okay, great. So you, you met Logan. Uh, you were like, I need to date other people. He was accepting of that. So how did you decide that that was going to be a thing that you were going toa continue doing even after you actually solidified your relationship?

M: Yeah. So before we actually, like, hit the six month mark, where then we started dating, like, more officially, were you like.

F: "Logan, it's been six months now? No, now we can be official."

M: No, actually it was like five and a half months. And I was like: "Okay, like, we get it. Like, can we just be in a relationship?" He's like: "No, you have a half a month."

F: Oh, wow. So he was actually helping you?

M: Like, yeah, that's how I was like, okay, you're a keeper. Uh, no. So before that, though, um, before we were like, really. Even in that stage, I met another guy who I had gone not on a date with, but went to dinner with and then went back to his place. And it was supposed to be super casual friendly. Um, but we did get into the conversation of just play parties. He had just brought it up and I had not heard about it before. I didn't really know that that was a real thing.

F: What, so he came up to you?

M: He came on to me at his place and I was not interested.

F: Oh, I see. Okay.

M: And then that's how we segue into, by the way, there's these things called play parties. So it was kind of like, it was awkward in a way, but at the same time, I was like: "Oh, tell me more," because I was very curious about it. Definitely want to go to one of these. And he was like: "Well, it is, uh, you have to go with a wonder buddy. You have to go with somebody who. Or you have to go with a buddy who has been before so that you are. You have to behave."

F: Yeah. And did you think that because at this point you were already dating Logan. Did you think that he could be accepting of that?

M: Well, no, at the time, we weren't exclusive.

F: You weren't exclusive, but you were already dating?

M: Yeah, that was in the back of my head. But I've already. Logan was already so accepting of everywhere I was at. And I knew that what being single for six months meant was that I was going to make my own decisions on what I wanted rather than anybody else. So that was really important to me.

F: At, uh, this point. Logan had already proved that he was okay with you going on that journey.

M: Yeah. But to me, it didn't matter because it wasn't about what Logan would be.

F: Okay. Yeah, exactly. You were doing your own thing, which I think is great.

M: Yeah. It is wonderful that he was also accepting of it, and that's wonderful. But that wasn't the name of the game at the time, and that's why we work so well now is because we went through that where I was really able to focus on myself and who I was without thinking about, you know, of course, I kept him in mind. Of course. Because I did care about him and I did love him, but he very much knew that that's where I was at. So kind of going back to. So he introduces me to. Okay, there's these play parties. I'm like: "Okay, tell me more." He says: "Yeah, so you have to go with a buddy." You. That's been before. And I'm like: "Okay, fine. I'm happy to go with you. Can you be my buddy, please?"

F: Oh, that's why he brought it up.

M: Yeah.

F: He was like, she won't have sex with me right now, but if I take her to a party, then she only has access to if I come with her.

M: Right. And he was like, well, it's very important that we set intentions prior. And I was like, great. Uh, so then it was like the party was gonna be a month later. I showed up, and we went shopping together. He bought me this, like, really sexy outfit. Like, my favorite pink, furry coat that I own that I wear everywhere.

F: He bpought you that?

M: Yeah, he bought me that.

F: I know which coat she's talking about. I think I might have wore it.

M: Oh, absolutely. I think everybody's wore it. It seriously comes with me everywhere. Uh, so he bought me my favorite coat and a very, very sexy outfit. Uh, so we had a really great day, just, like, going shopping and everything and then setting intentions for the party.

F: And had you kissed at this point?

M: Yeah, we had kissed, but it was like a kiss and then like: "E... No, thank you."

F: Right. You were no, thank you.

M: Yeah, yeah. So. But at that point, it was very platonic. Like, I was being very clear about that. Um, as much as I could be. It is hard to say no, uh, sometimes. And that's just kind of. I feel like the way that I was brought up, and I'm sure many women feel the same. Um, but, yeah, so I just. So anyways, we went to the shopping spree. That was fun. And then we set the intentions, and the intentions on my side were that I really want to go. I really want to experience this. I don't want to sleep with you. And he was like: "Damn, my plan ruined." Yeah. And honestly, even going, I feel like that boundary wasn't necessarily respected fully.

F: Oh, really? Yeah.

M: Yeah. But, you know, it was still such a beautiful experience, right?

F: I mean, you did well because you kind of did what you wanted to do and you didn't feel pressured because that's another thing, right? If, like, a guy invites you to a party and he pays for the ticket, he pays for the clothes you're gonna wear, you might feel like you kind of have to, you know, in return. And cheers to you that you were like, no, you know, I never agreed to that. If he wants to do that for me, great.

M: That's wonderful.

F: Yeah. But, uh, you know, I'm going for myself.

M: I think that's something that was really important that I acknowledged that I needed to learn during my six months. Again, like, this was during a time where I was like, this is about me. And like, of course I'm gonna respect other people and of course I care about other people, but I need to do what's right for me. And I think that that's why that part of my life was so important is because I did really stick to my guns in a lot of ways. And, uh, that's just one of them. And, uh, yeah, it was actually interesting because when I went to the party, I met this guy who, you know, I was attracted to, but I wasn't really. You know, I was nervous. I was wearing this, like, sexy outfit that barely wish. You know, I was barely wearing anything. And, uh, all these people are naked around me. And some people are spanking each other. We're in the dungeon. You know, there's just like so much going on where.

F: Okay, let's just like, give some context here. The particular party she's talking about. Um, I mean, I think it's fine if we mention the name. Um, well, whatever. Just to be on the safe side, we won't mention it. If you want to know, email us and we'll let you know what this party is about. Uh, I mean, obviously it's not happening right now, but, you know, for next year or whenever we start going to.

M: Play parties, when things are normalish again.

F: Yeah, exactly. But, well, uh, basically the way this party works, which is also this first play party I went to, as, uh, Mariah mentioned, you do have to have a buddy that has been there before. And it's kind of like someone that is looking out for you, and you kind of feel in a form before saying, this is my body consent. Like, I won't touch anyone without their consent. But also, it's a real party. Like, there's a DJ and you can dance, and there's, like, a playroom where people are having sex, but there's, like.

M: Cushions there on the floor outside of that room, too. So you have to go in with somebody. You know, they're very protective of that space as well.

F: Right? And it's bring your own bottle, so you bring your own boothe. And there's that room. There's also, like, a, uh, kinky room where there's this spanking going on. And there's also the DJ room where people are just dancing. And if you want to just be there all night and never go in. I mean, of course, if you go there, like, most people want to peek, at least.

M: I mean, it's a great intro party, for sure. No doubt about it. I just. I feel like I was just in it, and I was just like, what? There's just a lot to take in, you know, when you're not used to that world. And literally, I tend to do this with everything, but I just dove right in. I was like, oh, play party. Polyamory. Interesting. Yeah, let's go. Uh, it's just my nature. So I'm in this party, and then I met this guy. He comes up to me, and he just starts this conversation, and I'm just like: "Wow, really cool conversation." Then he asked me: "Do you want to go in the back room, which is the playroom?" Uh, and I had. Was like, uh. Because I was nervous, you know, and he was like, okay. And I was like, I mean, it's not that. Like. And I tried to have this conversation. Like, no, it's not you, it's me. It's like, you know, trying to justify what your choices are. He's like, no, no, that was not a yes, and that's okay. And then he continued to just have a conversation with me. We sat on the. What they call the dungeon floor, uh, where people are spanking each other, and we're just having this, like, real conversation with all this going around us. That wasn't sexual. That wasn't. You know, I ended up then going to the back room with him later that night. Uh, but it was.

F: Right, but as opposed to the other guy who took you, it was clear that that was not his end goal, that he cared about you as a person and that he respected your boundaries and, uh, he didn't even try to push.

M: Yeah. It was just that really defined or like, really showed me that, wow, this is such a beautiful thing and something that I had never really experienced.

F: Yeah, that's great. So you ended up going to the playroom with him. And if you don't mind sharing, how much did you do? Because I actually, um, I went to the same party. Not the same day, because they do this party. They used to do it every month, I think. Um, and I actually did not have sex. My. Oh, no, wait, wait a second. No, I did. I did, but with a friend that, um, I had already had sex with previously. And I wasn't really planning on it. Uh, I just met him and it happened. But there's been some play parties I've been to in which I have not had sex. And I feel like that's also something that people should know about. But anyhow, did you have sex with him? Uh, or.

M: I didn't have. I mean, I didn't have like, penetrate.

F: Intercourse.

M: Yeah. Ah. I didn't have intercourse. I don't know whatever that definition is. But so, yeah, we did have a lot of fun. Uh, we didn't have sex per se. Um, but yeah, we were in there for a while and then the guy that I was with kind of started coming up and.

F: Right. I was gonna ask what was the guy you came with doing this whole time?

M: I mean, we had split up because he already. I mean, he's been in the community for a while, so he had already had friends there, um, that he was then connecting with and people who did want to sleep with him. So he went in that direction, I went in mine, which was really great and the purpose of me going and wanting

to go. Um, but then once we were all back in the back room, that was kind of when it got a little. The lineionss got a little blurred. I'd feel. I remember, like, being in. Eventually being in this orgy type ordeal where there was definitely more than probably five people. I'm not even really sure. Uh, again, I'm not really having sex because I'm very careful about that. Um, but just like making out and just being touched.

F: And the same night.

M: Yeah, the same night. And then, then like coming up for air at some point and looking around and I'm seeing mirrors. I'm seeing all of these bodies. Not only just like our little pod going on, but there's other people doing that. It's huge room, you know, where there's people doing their thing. And I came up for air and I was just like, what is happening right now? But in a good way, you know. But it was just like again, me diving right in. It was just so much.

F: It is very mind opening, if I must say. Um, that was also the first play party I went to again, not that night, but a different night. And I remember you, like, I feel like what I came out with was not so much, oh, what a sexy experience and what a, uh, you know, like sexually satisfying experience. It was just like, what a mind opening experience. Like realizing that people can pleasure one another. Like you can pleasure people that you like. And it doesn't mean anything. I mean, obviously it means that there's some sort of connection, but it doesn't mean that you have to be with them. It doesn't mean that you don't love someone else. It's just people giving each other pleasure. That was like mind blowing for me. When I went for the first time, I was like, we have this capacity to give each other pleasure and it's kind of a gift we can give to one another. Like we give gifts to our friends. Why can't not we do that? And it being normal. I understand there's a lot of complications, but that was kind of like what I took out from my. That first experience I had. Um, kind of what got me interested as well.

M: Yeah. And I think that what's important too is like, as this is becoming more and more talked about and coming to the light more, and people are becoming more open about it coming out of the closet, all of that. I think what's important to know too is that if you do decide to go to a play party, if you are interested in that and you want to dip your toes in, just be safe, you know, um, understand what consent is and not just consent of like, you know, understanding that their body language is saying yes. It's like you actually have to ask before touching someone's arm, even, even to go into a hug. Like all of that needs to be consensual. And then on top of that, it's just like being safe with whole, uh, sexual ordeal about it. Just make sure you're getting tested and all of that. Um, I think that.

F: And you know, using a condom or whatever method to prevent.

M: Yeah. And that's like a wholeher episode in itself. But just keeping that in mind because I know that we're talking to a lot of curious people right now and this might be something that interests you. Just do your research and just make sure you're staying safe. But absolutely, uh, feed into that curiosity.

F: Right. And also if you come to the right non- monogamous community you might find, I mean there's still know assoles out there like everywhere. But you'll find that surprisingly you would think like, oh, I'm going to display part. And it just feels like this dangerous affair. And you actually go there and it's like for the first time I'm being asked whether it's okay if someone puts uh, their hand around my waist which is something that guys would do to me as like clubs without ever asking.

M: And you know, and we feel like it's normal.

F: Oh my God. I know.

M: And it's so different. And that's what I loved about figuring and again with this guy, you know, just me studyuttering or like me not saying yes right away meant no right away. You know, it's just so different. And we're very lucky to have this community of people who are so understanding. Not to say that everyone is perfect but you know, I think that we're very lucky to be part of it.

F: Yeah, for sure. You know, and even if you just want to open up in your own relationship, it's a good experience. Again, this party, you don't need to have sex if you don't want to. You can just go and see or.

M: Really any other of the parties like.

F: Uh, that any of the parties. Like there's no play party. You know, like people obligation, these idea parties and I mean I had that idea two of play parties being this huge orgy, right that you come in and you just see naked bodies and everyone. Everyone's fucking. No, like there's people hanging out, there's people talking.

M: I've gone to many of the parties and not slept with anyone exactly. Sometimes I go just to see my friends and just to like, you know.

F: What I love doing because I love giving massages. I just bring my massage all and like it was does everywhere like for a while I could like carry like in my bag wherever it went. It didn't matter if it was a party or not. But anyhow. So you went to this play party. Let's try to um, get to your relationship with Logan.

M: Sure, sure. Yeah. Went to the play party. Yeah. So anyway, that was, I mean that was the magical moment. That was the play party and that was wonderful. Um, so yeah then skip forward to uh, we were now official but still dating. He was in uh, D.C. at the time. We had this long distance relationship as well. So uh, he finally moved up to New York a couple months after that. And yeah, I mean, I guess just to kind of jump forward to what our relationship is now. Um, or what it has been, as far as what it looks like, open. Uh, and poly, is that I always see our relationship with the potential of being polyamorous. And for a long time I called our relationship polyamorous, but I guess it's just not the right definition because we haven't neither of us have found another partner that we fall in love with. You know, it is a very fine line because I feel like our group of friends and like our polycule or our constellation, whatever you want to call it, it has. Everyone loves each other so much, you know, But I haven't found someone that I'm like, I really want to build a relationship, a secondary relationship or one that, um, would maybe turn into a primary relationship.

F: Right, but you've dated people, Right? So even though those relationships haven't become partners, you have also dated people not only for sex, just dating, but it just kind of like, has never become anything either than that. Yeah. And, you know, I guess just like, to sum up a little bit, what have you learned? What has been, like, the good parts of it? What has been the hard part of it? Okay, I do want to talk about this, actually, because, uh, I feel like this is like the biggest question people have. Jealousy. Like, how have you guys dealt with jealousy?

M: Yeah.

F: Um, do you experience it?

M: Oh, absolutely. Yeah. So jealousy is a human emotion, period. Like, you're going to deal with it whether you're poly, whether you're monogamous. It doesn't matter. It is there. Um, that being said, how you choose to deal with it is where that work really comes in. And another reason why I love of this type of relationship is because your're constantly looking at yourself and building yourself. And what I see as jealousy is insecurity, you know, is feeling like your're less than or that someone might leave you because of or whatever, or someone's better. You know, there's so many things that create jealousy. And if you can just take a step back and see, like, okay, I'm feeling jealous because not because someone's flirting with Logan, it's because I'm afraid that he might like her more or that, you know, whatever comes up at the time, so it's going to be there. It's just that ability to step back and actually see it. Not that I've been able to do that all the time. I've had some really tough, uh, experiences where I felt crazy and I kind of was crazy, to be honest. I mean, it's.

F: Tell us about that.

M: Yeah, I mean, um, it's just every relationship has its quirk, you know, And I do have this insecurity of like not being in the know, you know, I'm definitely not a Don't Ask, Don't Tell type of relationship. I want to be open and I want to know all the details. You know, Logan's not necessarily that same way and he doesn't really feel comfortable sharing all the details, uh, if he goes on a date or something like that. So there is a balance there. Um, but yeah, it just, you know, it has been hard. Um, in some situations I think I feel like I've gotten a lot better at it. Um, and that really comes with two way communication. You know, Logan's found ways that make me more comfortable and I found ways where I can kind of check myself and say I'm validated of feeling what I feel. You know, it's not that it's wrong or anything. It's just that, you know, I also need to give Logan the space to have that same type of freedom that he gives me.

F: Right. You know, it's interesting because I thought before really knowing about non- monogamous relationships that they didn't experience jealousy and that's why they could do it. And then I remember, uh, one of the first people I met who were in a non- monogamous relationship saying: "Oh, no, absolutely, we experience it all the time. But it's kind of the trade off, you know." And yeah, that kind of like switched my perspective. Is that how you see it? Do you see it like as a trade off? Yes, I get jealous, but, you know, it's something that I can work on. And also he'll be a little jealous when I do it as well, but then I get to do it, you know.

M: No, I don't really see it as a trade off, honestly, because I think that there was a lot of guilt that was associated when I went out at first. And I think that that's what he was experiencing when he first started dating because it happened like a half a year after we started dating was when he really started opening up. Um, so I think that, yeah, I mean, I don't really see it as a trade off, really. I see it as, uh, I understand that I'm jealous right now and I understand it'something that I have to work on and I'm taking these opportunities to work on it. Not saying that they all, I don't like, work on it. I'm like, yes, I did a great job. Like a lot of times I don't do a good job. But you, that's something that we work on together.

F: Yeah, I mean it's hard because as I mentioned previously, we are socialized to be like if this person wants someone else, that means I'm lacking. Right? That person is going to go elsewhere to look for something that I am not giving, I'm failing, I'm less because this person wants this other person. And I felt that too. I felt jealous. And at the same time I've also been on the other side and being like the fact that I really care about this other person or that I want to have sex with this other person or uh, relationship with this other person does not mean that my boyfriend is lagging on anything. You know, it just means that you don't always, I always make this comparison. You don't always feel like eating the same food. Right? So like even if you, you love burgers, you know, you sometimes don't feel like eating a burger, you sometimes feel like eating a sandwich.

M: That's such a great analogy.

F: I mean that's how I see it. I'm just that type of person who wants to taste it all, you know, like if I'm gonna uh, buffet I'm gonna have every single dish, just a little bite of everything. And it doesn't mean that, but because I want a different one, I don't want the other one. No, obviously there'sn to be one thing there that I prefer and then that's my favorite but it doesn't mean I don't want to experience all the other things. You know.

M: Yeah, and that's a really good point too. And I think that's something that non-monogamy is teaching me in this relationship in particular is that we're not all the same. I think that me going into relationships of the past, like yeah, I said that they were toxic or it was toxic, the relationship was toxic but they were controlling all these things. But there was also a part of me that was like we need to be exactly the same, we need to like the same things. Or I just had this mindset of like thats what relationships look like is that we both enjoy the same thing and we spend all of our time together and all this stuff. And now that Im in this non-monogamous relationship its just I'm changing the way that I think about relationships in general and that we are two different people who might want to eat different things sometimes. And that's a very simplified version of it. But yeah, I mean, that's something that I didn't really taken into consideration before. And so I feel like without the sex side of things and without just being able to date other people or whatever, I've still learned so much just of me of a person and just being with another person, you know, and what that actually means and what that actually can look like. So even if you're not poly, even if you're not monogamous, just like giving other people the space to be themselves, to have their own decisions, to have their own choices and all of that, I mean, it seems like everyone should know that, but I didn't.

F: I am m loving this conversation. We could go for hours. So I'm going to ask this question to every single guest on the podcast. Uh, because it's for polycurious people you might not be in an, uh, open relationship with, but you might just be curious about it. So what would you like to tell to polycurious people, to those people who just don't know much about it, maybe to yourself a few years back, before you were introduced to this world, what would you tell them?

M: Yeah, I think that what's most important is that understanding, if you're going to be exploring it, whether you're single and want to explore the non-monogamous, whether you're in a couple and you want to open up or whatever stage that you're in, understand that whatever direction you're going, whatever works for you is right. And I think that that's really important to know because when we do have so many reference points of what we think a relationship would be, and most of the time that is monogamous from what we understand, that we get turned away from what actually works for our unique needs and wants. And I think that's the most important thing that I wish I would have known before I understood what open was right.

F: Don't try to fit into a box.

M: Yeah.

F: Just understand that everyone's unique and don't feel shame about not wanting what other people want, what you think that society wants. I love that. I love that message. Um, yeah, I think that's a great point to stop this wonderful conversation.

M: Thank you so much for having me and I'm so excited to actually learn about other couples and just, I think this is really wonderful. So I appreciate it.

F: Yeah, of course. And you guys, this is not the last time you'll hear about Mariah. Um, as I briefly mentioned, she'll be my co- host in some other conversations. Not all of them, but you'll hear a lot more about her relationship, a lot more about my relationship, a lot more about other relationships and topics that you might be curious about. So thank you so much guys. Please write us your questions or if you want to be featured on the show or just your comments what you thought about this episode. Our Instagram is @PolycuriousPodcast and our email is polypcuriousodcast@gmail.com

Rate and subscribe to the podcast. Share it. If you think someone could benefit from this conversation, leave us a review. I'll see you again on the next episode. Yay. That was great.

M: We did it!

F: That was fun.