Ariella: I remember, like, the first time I was hooking up with people outside of my relationship, I was like: "Oh, I feel like I'm doing something wrong".

Fernanda and Mariah: Yeah.

A: But I'm not. I'm just doing the thing that my partner and I had said was, okay. There was a bit of a learning curve there too. To be like, all right, no, this is within the confines of what we're allowed to do, and I just need to process this with myself of, okay, like, this is okay, this is safe. What is feeling uncomfortable here?

F: Hi, everyone. Welcome to Polycurious. We are so excited to be chatting today with Queer Dating Coach Ariella Serur. Ariella is a certified life coach. She's also currently receiving a graduate advanced certificate in sexuality, women and gender with a concentration in LGBTQ issues from Columbia University. In her practice, she works with queer people, navigating the dating world.

So dating becomes an enjoyable process and part of their personal growth journey. We wanted to have Ariella on the show because a lot of non-monogamous people also come out to discover their queerness, and they might not really know how to go about it when dating, but also because Ariella's work is focused on understanding what it is that you want from dating and more importantly, how to communicate it, which is something that everyone can benefit from.

In this conversation, Mariah and I chat about Ariella's own queerness and non-monogamous journey. We talk about how to deal with feelings of infatuation, especially when you have a primary partner. She gives tips around what to do when you're not 100% sure that you are queer, but also you don't want to be playing around with people. We also get into a really interesting conversation about how to make the first move and also how you might try to get nonverbal consent from your date when you aren't really sure if they're into you. So much to talk about, so let's just get to it.

Here's our conversation with Queer Dating Coach Ariella Serur.

F: Hi, Ariella. We're so excited to have you. I've been listening to a bunch of other interviews that you've done on podcast, and I have so many questions. I have so many things to say, and I also just want to learn more about you because I feel that as much as there's information out there about your work, there's not that much information, at least, that I could find about how you came to become a Queer Dating Coach. And that's obviously informed by your own journey. And I know that at least at the time you recorded previous podcasts, you were non-monogamous, and I'm sure that was also another journey.

A: Totally.

F: So why don't we start from the very basics? Where are you from? Where did you grow up? What kind of family did you have? Because I've also heard comments about your mom that actually reminded me of my mom, about her being proud of your dating life and things like that. Sounds like a progressive mom, but I have no idea. I'm just making assumptions. So if you could let us know more about that.

A: Oh my God, what I say about my mom? Yeah, sure. So first, I'm really happy to be here. Thanks for having me. So I'm originally from Long island. My folks live in the city. I live in the city, so I feel very much like I identify as a New York City person, hopefully Brooklyn person soon. My background is in acting in theater.

M: Oh, my God, me too.

A: That's fun. So that's kind of what I did my whole life. It's also what I still do now to an extent. And I'm also composing my first musical in this moment.

M: Awesome.

A: A wild time. So that's kind of like my personal life. I am non-monogamous still. I am proudly queer. I have an awesome family. I could tell you more details about any of those things. Is there somewhere that you want to dive into first?

F: Yeah. Why don't we start with your queerness? Is that something that you knew early on, or how did that process of understanding yourself better start?

M: Yeah. And with that too, I guess I'm curious, kind of which one, as far as, like, non-monogamy goes and queerness, which one you kind of came out with first and what that transition was like, too.

A: Totally. Queerness definitely preceded non-monogamy, so I did not consider the fact that I could be queer. When I was growing up, I was surrounded by a lot of gay cis men in theater, as one is, but I had no alternative representation of queerness. So I remember the first time I heard the word lesbian on TV when I was, like, 8 years old, which I have a terrible memory of my childhood. So the fact that I even remember the first time I heard the word lesbian, I was like: "Why is that sticking out to me now?" Now we know. But I remember asking my parents about it at the time when I was really young, and they were kind of like: "Yeah, this is what it means. Is that how you feel?" And at the time, I was like, no. So that's kind of when I heard about the other options of queerness besides being a gay man.

But it wasn't until college that I really started to explore my sexuality. And by college, I mean, like, my senior year of college. So I was, like, very straight laced, very tightly wound, very type A personality until senior year. And basically, even though in high school I would have a lot of boyfriends, and one of them was like: "I heard a song today that reminded me of you". And I was like,:"Oh, what was the song?" And he was like: "I kissed a girl by Katy Perry". And I was like: "Oh, is that because you like kissing me?" And he was like: "No, I think it's because you'd like kissing girls". Completely oblivious to the end. I was like: "Oh, that's an interesting thing to say". So it wasn't until my senior year of college where a freshman came in and they were really out and proud as bi.

And up until that point, I'd obviously still been surrounded by a lot of cis gay men, but there wasn't a lot of queer folks other than cis gay men in theater program I was in. So basically, this freshman came in when I was a senior and they rocked my world, and I was like, I guess I need to explore this. So I made a series of really bad decisions and was really still closeted and just having sex with queer people for a really long time. But not identifying as queer and just going down to my friends in the bathroom at parties and still being like: "I'm straight. This is my favorite hobby, and I'm straight". So that took a long time for me to actually come out as a queer person. I just really thought that I just loved this activity, and I thought everybody else loved it, too. And no, I'm just really gay is what that means. So I slept with queer people for years and would kind of date, but not really take anybody seriously. And then I came out officially when I was in my first queer relationship, which was in 2017.

M: Wow. So I'm just curious about that. I guess it's more like you said you were really into it as an activity or something that you knew that you liked, but what was the block from making you think that this was potentially, like, a romantic interest as well? Was it just purely sexual at the time?

A: I think that part of it is that, and this is an experience I've seen with clients, with friends. Sometimes when we don't feel romantic for a person or sexual for a person, we discount an entire gender or an entire group of people.

M: Absolutely.

A: So I think that's what was happening for me. I mean, a combination of things. In retrospect, I can totally see that I had feelings for that person, that freshman that had come into school. But I think that wasn't enough feelings. Did it feel like the feelings I had had previously? I'm not sure. And I was probably also wrestling with a lot of internalized homophobia and a lack of role models in queer spaces that I didn't know kind of where to fit or how to move forward with that information.

So I think it was like a few different kind of Venn Diagram, type of circles, pushing in on me, making me think that I'm just straight with, like, a dedicated hobby of hooking up with queer people. So basically what happened was this freshman, we had, like, a year's long saga, like, many years. There was one night in 2016 where we hooked up and they basically grabbed me by the shoulders and is just like, what are you doing? You need to be dating queer people. Why are you not dating queer people? And I was just like: "Oh, God, you're right. I probably should". I should be giving this a real shot and not like, I should just be... I want to try this and see if this feels right to me. So basically, I went to Philly to do a show. I was hired as an actor, and I knew I was going to be there for a couple months. So I was like: "I will not date non queer folks". I will not date cis men during this time here, and let me just see how this is feeling for me. And it felt great. So then I identified as queer for a while and would date all certain types, all types of folks, and now I'm pretty firmly gay.

M: That's wonderful. I love that you kind of made that challenge for yourself, too, because I think that's something that a lot of us don't do often enough, is kind of cut out what is comfortable to try something full on. And I think that's really great that you did that.

A: And I think that comes up a lot with clients and a lot of by clients where they'll say, I'm getting so many more matches with men, or I'm getting so many more messages with men, and I really want to be getting messages from queer people. And I'm like, then only allow the messages from the queer people. Stop swiping right on men or take men out of the deck for a bit and just see how that feels for you. Because if you're weeding through a bunch of people to get to a queer person every now and then, then you're not really allowing the best filter for yourself. If you're only going to the queer people inside this anyway.

F: Can you tell us a bit more about your work and how you work with clients in that way?

A: Yeah, totally. I think it's so important for people to investigate what is it they want from dating? What is it that they think they want from relationship? Why do you think that relationship is going to give you the things that you think you want in your life? Where are all these pieces interconnected? How can we feel the way that we want to feel outside of relationship that we think we're going to feel in the relationship? How can we feel the way we want to feel outside of dating that we think dating is going to bring to us? How can dating itself bring the things to us besides finding a person that we want to date in the process of dating?

So that's kind of the beginning stages of it, and then we get into more, like, logistics. So basically, I teach queer people or anybody under the LGBTQIA+ umbrella how to date or how to date better. So if you've dated before and you're just like, this just isn't working for me, I'm not enjoying it, this is hard, I feel like I'm totally alone in my problems with dating, then I want to teach you how to date better. If you've never dated before or you're new to queerness, you're new to dating in a different way, or if you're new to non-monogamy, then I want to help you date period.

And a lot of this is through my Instagram and free resources that I give out, but also through a six week bootcamp that I run called Date Better Bootcamp, where it has a few different components, like 35 video modules where I teach people how to date and then live group coachings, guest workshops, an online community platform, a whole bunch of stuff that kind of goes into giving us a bit of a map. I'm, like, helping you create your map based on what works for you and based on your personality, your values, your preferences. So that's kind of the big picture of what it is that I do.

F: And what are some of the challenges that you encountered dating as a newly queer person and some of the challenges that you also might see in your practice?

A: Yeah, I mean, there's a lot for me, personally, I think something that I found really difficult was, like, how do I navigate being new to a thing, still understanding my own level of desire in it, while also treating someone else as well as I can be, knowing I'm on kind of a journey with this. So that's something that comes up, but a lot of times it's people not knowing where to start, not knowing how to talk about what they need, what they're looking for, not knowing what it is that they need or what they're looking for.

I think the problem is that we've been fed one particular image of what love and relationships look like predominantly through media. And though that's shifting now, obviously, with the rise of content creators as legitimate media that we're taking in, I think there's still obviously a huge lack of representation of how do I actually do this thing? And a lot of dating coaches and people out there creating content around dating don't have content that is applicable to queer folks or applicable to non-monogamous folks or trans folks. So there's just still a big gap.

So I think that the gap and the not knowing and sometimes the lack of community surrounding those topics is probably what's most challenging for folks these days.

M: Yeah, I think that we find that a lot in just the non-monogamous world as well.

A: Totally.

M: Being able to kind of step in and know how do I meet people and how do I approach people. And I am in this exploratory stage right now. I don't even know what's right for me or what I should label myself. So I really see a lot of parallels there as well.

A: For sure. I think one of the biggest things with non-monogamy and polyamory is the fact that there are so many unique challenges that face people in these relationship orientations that to try and go at it alone with no resources and no community is oftentimes disastrous for someone's mental health because there are frameworks out there and there are ways that you can be supported. And I think that it is so important, particularly with these folks, myself included, to have resources, have community, have books, have podcasts, have other people that have been like: "Here, try this". You don't have to be making this up from square one in your living room, just with your partner. There is information out there and I think it's really helpful to turn to resources like that and resources like this.

M: Yeah.

F: Yeah, for sure. And what were some of the challenges that you encounter being non-monogamous? First of all, how did that come up? Was your first relationship non-monogamous or who brought it up? How did you think of the idea?

A: Yeah. It was a little bit more organic in the sense that I didn't know what it was. I just knew that I wanted it. So when I was a senior in college, I had asked a boyfriend at the time, to be open. When I was a senior in high school, sorry. When I was a senior in high school, I asked a boyfriend to be open. When I was a senior in college, I also asked another partner to be open. Then when I was in Philly with this partner, I had asked them to be open. So I kept asking for this thing of, like, I want to be able to maintain some kind of openness, to connect with people in the way that I want to, with less limitations or with not abiding by the "traditional expectations or limitations". I'm putting that in quotes for the people that aren't looking at me right now. So I knew that there was something about this structure that wasn't working for me, but I didn't know what it was called. I didn't know how to handle that responsibly.

So, basically, in 2017, in September, there was a Polyamory 101 Symposium hosted by Curious Fox. I'm not sure if you're familiar with them.

F & M: Yeah.

A: Yeah, okay. I'm obsessed with Curious Fox. I was on their podcast as well. I just think that they were an organization I was really involved with pre-pandemic, and then volunteering for events got tricky, so they had a Polyamory Symposium 101. It was a full day of speakers about polyamory. So it was literally just like a crash course in the thing. And I took a friend who I had kind of dated a bit, and I remember her being like: This seems like it's for you". And I was like: "I f****** know. It does, doesn't it?"

F: Sorry to interrupt, but what made you think that it was for you? I mean, you mentioned you wanted more open, but what characteristics of your personality or desires made you think that?

A: Yeah, basically it was Effie Blue who runs Curious Fox, one of the two folks that runs Curious Fox. They had talked about this concept called relationship by design, and there are books about it. Effie talks a lot about it. What I remember Effie saying was, if you were going to get a new apartment with someone, and your partner really loved to cook and you really love to play music, when you're looking for an apartment together, you're going to make sure that the kitchen is really nice for your partner, and that you're going to have a place like hang up your guitars and put your keyboard and whatever.

And that creating relationship should be as specific, as intentional, and as creative as creating a home. So that concept felt mind blowing, because in the past, I have tried to abide by the construct of what "I thought relationship should be". In quotes, and knew that it wasn't working because I would ask for these extra things that partners would say yes or no to, to varying degrees of comfort, understandably, and with no resources or really any support in that, in me asking for that. So when I heard that concept, I was just like: "Duh, this is the thing. This is the thing". And even now, I identify as an non-monogamous person my partnership right now, we're primarily monogamous. We have threesomes and go on dates with other folks and go to play parties and stuff together, but we don't date one on one, at least not in this moment.

And that's looked different in various partnerships in the past. But I was determined from that point on to always be creating my relationships, regardless of what they wind up resembling, to be very foundational in what is it that we're agreeing to, what do we want this relationship to be like, and how can we make it perfectly tailored to us, the people involved in it? And how can that be flexible and change over time as we change? So that, to me, is non-monogamy, that creative process. So that's what resonated so much with me that day and still really does.

F: I think that a lot of your work is also focused on communication, and I feel like that's a very important key, especially when one is starting to see someone. I've realized through trial and error that at least for the moment, I'm not really looking for partnership outside of my primary partner. I'm kind of, like looking for fun more than anything.

A: Totally.

F: I'm not close to the idea of one day having a secondary partner. But you also don't want to lead people on when you might have certain boundaries that you know well, or maybe you don't know them that well, but you want to be respectful towards that person. Another thing I've noticed is that I tend to want to see new people all the time, which means that because we only have so much time and energy, I might not want to continue seeing someone who wants to continue seeing me because I want to make space for someone else. And a part of me just wants to come on the first date and be like: "Listen, this is just for fun". And I kind of do say that, but also I don't want to come across as being close to things being different.

A: Totally. How has that been working for you? When you've been transparent in that way?

F: Well, I feel like I've only done it more recently because I've only come to that realization through trial and error. So at first, I didn't really say any of that because I didn't really know, and I had a lot of issues dealing with. And this is also something that I wanted to ask you about, feelings of infatuation, because as I'm sure you are familiar with many of your clients, especially at the beginning, one has this flood of emotions that just kind of take over your body, and sometimes you cannot really think about anything else and what has happened to me and what I've realized with time, and this is also something that I like to put out there for whoever is feeling those feelings, especially if you have a primary, because then those feelings can also come with the fear of: "Oh, is this going to affect my primary relationship?"

And what I've realized is that for me, I feel like it's the fourth date that the bale comes up, the hormones level out a little bit, the infatuation kind of fades away, and I'm able to see things more clearly. So now, even if I do have those feelings at the beginning, I don't feel so blindsided by them because I'm like: "Okay, I'm going to give myself until the fourth date to start worrying if there's anything to worry about". But how do you deal with those feelings?

A: Yeah, there's so much in what you just said. What I'm struck by, though, and what I'm obsessed with, is that you have figured out for you what it is that you are actually looking for. You're starting to figure out, or have started to experiment with communicating that to other people. But also what I love is that you've figured out for me personally, date four is where I kind of check in and where I'm like, how are these feelings of new relationship energy calibrating or not calibrating? How does this work or not work with my current and existing relationships that I already have? So I think that's the work, is to not necessarily be like: "Okay, this is how long your relationship energy lasts. This is how to handle it". It's like: "What does it feel like for you? When does this fade for you? How do you want to handle it?" So I think that you're doing a really good job in being honest with yourself and receiving the information that your body and brain are communicating with you about what's right for you at a given moment. So I just want to start by saying that.

F: Thank you.

A: Yeah. Okay. I feel like there's a few different directions that we can kind of ping pong in here. What's on your mind?

F: I mean, I think I'm talking more generally about people who are in non-monogamous relationships, and then they start dating and they might love their primary partner very much, but they have very strong feelings of infatuation for this new person they just met, and they fear that that might affect their relationship. Which of course, one of the reasons why I make this podcast is for people to understand that the fact that you might have really strong feelings for one person doesn't mean that that's going to necessarily affect your relationship. But in the moment, it just feels overwhelming, and it feels overwhelming on it's own if you didn't have a primary partner, but then on top of that, you have a partner. So I don't know if there's a way to not let that infatuation make you feel guilty about your primary relationship.

A: Well, first, I would say that having that infatuation and New Relationship Energy (NRE) is super normal. If you can already understand that what your body is going through, being flooded with hormones in this way about a new person that centered your life is what happens most of the time, unless you don't like the person. But this overwhelming sensation for new people, if you're getting along with them, is just a really normal thing to happen. So if you're going to be poly or if you're going to be non-monogamous, we don't want those feelings to be coupled with anxiety about what's going to happen to the relationship that you're currently in. Because, yes, we can hold space for all of that, right? But more than that, the fear of having it affect your relationship. Everything in life affects your relationship. If you get a new job, it affects your relationship. If you have to move to a different city, it affects your relationship. If you lose access to your cell phone, if it breaks, that affects your relationship. So the fear of affecting the relationship that we need to be worried about, it's like: "Okay, what is not working in the relationship?" Or "Where can I find more creativity or more freedom here to allow space for the things that I'm experiencing?" "Is my partner willing to meet me on that?" "What needs do I have in my own life separate from the relationship?" "How can we create something that accommodates that?" "Is my partner willing to do that?" So I think that transparency with your partner about what it is that you're experiencing, to whatever extent you all have decided is comfortable for you, is a great idea. And your partner also naming like: "Hey, I'm feeling a little this way about this thing, and I think I might need this, or this might be helpful". For me, as you're experiencing, this is also a way to go about this. There's an amazing TikTok account called Decolonizing Couples who are poly focused. I'm not sure if y'all have seen their content.

F: No, but I'll link it in the show notes.

A: Chef's kiss obsessed with them, but they just had a TikTok about one of them coming back, being like: "I am obsessed with this person I'm seeing". And the couple, and you see them kind of work through. I don't think that they're actually working through this thing in real time, but you see them kind of act out what this conversation might look like for them. When this person comes back, says they're obsessed with the person they just went out with, and the other partner is kind of like: "I'm feeling a little bit uncomfortable about how many nights you're spending with them compared to me". I think that when you're with them, I could use a little bit more words of affirmation every once in a while so that you kind of see what some options are for navigating certain conversations like this. And I think it's really dependent on the couple, but they've got some great frames, so I would definitely recommend checking them out.

M: Oh, I love that. I love the fact that kind of putting it in real time, like you said, where it's a real conversation or like a conversation that they've had, because I think that's the most difficult part, is a lot of us do not know how to communicate properly, and that's something that we're all learning and trying to be transparent when you do feel guilty or just saying what it is that you need without diminishing your partner and their needs. So I think that's a great resource.

A: And I think that also, if you're new to non-monogamy or polyamory, guilt is an interesting emotion, because guilt is, I think what psychologists say about it is like, guilt is useful for if you want to make a change, then having guilt is an important emotion. But sometimes we experience guilt when there isn't a change that's actually needed. And in that case, guilt is not a super helpful emotion except to understand where you're at emotionally. So for people that are new to non-monogamy and polyamory, sometimes you might experience guilt about things that you really don't need to be experiencing guilt about. I remember the first time I was hooking up with people outside of my relationship. I was like: "Oh, I feel like I'm doing something wrong. But I'm not". I'm just doing the thing that my partner and I had said was, okay. There was a bit of a learning curve there, too, to be like, all right, no, this is within the confines of what we're allowed to do. And I just need to process this with myself of like, okay, this is okay, this is safe. What is feeling uncomfortable here?

F: Yeah. But you know what? What's interesting is that sometimes it isn't within what you are allowed to do. People request from their partners that they are free to have sex, but they cannot have feelings for the person. And that's not something that one can control. Right? And this is not something that my partner told me explicitly, but obviously I knew that he felt more comfortable about me having sex with other people more than me having feelings for other people. And so I felt like, in a way, I was, like, betraying him by having feelings for someone else, even though he didn't explicitly said that. And I know couples, non-monogamous couples, who have that explicit agreement, and that can be very difficult. And the way it played out for me was that I did bring it up with my partner and I felt great. I felt like a weight had been lifted. But then those feelings of infatuation for the other person kind of faded out. And then a part of me thought, like: "Was it even worth bringing it up?" Because sometimes we just have to give it a little time before knowing whether it's actually significant enough to bring it up to your partner. Because having that conversation of: "Hey, I'm having feelings for someone else" is a very difficult conversation to have.

A: Totally. So this is like talking about agreements and relationships. So, yes, you can experience guilt because what you're doing isn't exactly within the confines of what you decided. You can experience guilt because you're just doing a new thing. And our bodies haven't been taught how to do the new thing, especially when we've learned that there's a one right way to do it.

So I think that all of the above is true, and I think that you figured out what works for you in like: "I'm not going to talk to my partner about this until I go out with someone four times or whynot and allow that infatuation to kind of simmer down a bit and see where I'm at". I think that if that's the thing that works for you too, then that's the thing that works for you too. I think that also, yes, you can't exactly control if you have feelings for someone, but there are definitely ways to not be available for that, and constraints you can add to how you are seeing people outside of your relationship, to not really allow the space for feelings to develop. And that, I think, is also another option here.

M: In what ways do you find you can give yourself constraints in that way?

A: Well, actually, I had a therapist that sent me this podcast back in 2017 or 2018, I'll try to see if I can find it. Basically, it was like how to have casual sex responsibly, and it was shameless sex. I forget how to pronounce his last name, but Reed, I can't remember in this moment. Anyway, he gave a lot of advice in this podcast. It was great. You can link it.

F: I'll link it.

A: Though I haven't listened to it in quite a few years, so I can't promise how it's aged over time, as these things are. But anyway, basically, some of the things that I think I remember him saying are like not to have sleepovers, or not to text between dates, or only to see someone every two weeks or once a month, you can put actual constraints around your time on your interactions, on the level of vulnerability you have with each other. From my experience of non-monogamy, I was in a relationship for almost three years where we would actively date other people, but we didn't identify as poly. We identified as non-monogamous, and we would date people together, but primarily date people separately.

You can also just not be open to developing feelings for people, and that can be okay. But I think that if you're secretly hoping you will develop feelings or, like, you really want to maintain a lot of openness around that, then that might be actually shift in agreements that needs to happen with your partner, that might be something that you are actually craving more of in a legitimate way, versus knowing that I'm actually good with just having casual sex. So that's something else to keep in mind.

M: Yeah, I think those are really good tips and especially very specific tips of what you can actually do to help with that, especially if that's something that you're worried about. I know that for me, I fall very quickly, and I definitely get into that infatuation stage and just jump right in and, yeah, I think that if I were non-monogamous right now or dating other people, those would be really helpful for me specifically to put in play.

F: Yeah.

A: Totally. And that was also how I, in part, took care of the people I was dating. So when I wasn't in a place to develop feelings for someone, because my relationship agreements didn't allow for it. I also would try not to see someone more than once, period, or more than once a month because I don't want you to develop feelings for me either. This can be a bit more brief in our interactions.

M: Yeah. And that helps with what kind of, you were talking about Fer about being transparent with people that you are dating and telling them kind of where you're at. Setting up those boundaries with them as well just makes it very clear for everyone involved.

A: Yeah, I would try to do that pretty at the get go when I was dating in that way, and that was just kind of what feels best for me. And also, it's like a big value I have around transparency. So I would try as much as possible to give people as much information as they might need in order to consent to what's going to happen if I have that information myself. Like what you were saying before, you didn't necessarily have the information that you weren't available for these things. And me, when I was figuring out if I was queer, I didn't have the information. So sometimes we don't have the information. Sometimes we have the information. For me personally, if I have the information, I like to share the information.

F: Yeah, for sure. And I think that there are ways of sharing it that's not necessarily like: "Okay, let's sit down and have this conversation". You can do that if that feels right. But at least for me, normally when I share this, I might be talking about my own non-monogamous journey if they ask about my relationship structure, and then I can talk about how it has evolved and how with time I've realized of these things and there's ways of making it so it's not like this super heavy conversation, but you are still being honest. And you also talk about how there are certain things that you don't have to disclose necessarily. Like, something that you've talked about is if you are new in your queer journey and you are in that first date and you are nervous, you don't necessarily have to say that. "I came out last week and this is my first time". And I do think that there's a certain point in which it's useful context for the person you are interacting with. Like, many people might feel more comfortable just sharing that piece of information, but it doesn't have to be like this big thing that I'm going to dump. It can just be like: "Yeah, I just recently started exploring" and you can just say it casually and it doesn't have to be this big, heavy thing.

A: Totally, totally. Yeah. As far as that goes, I have some theories on this, but this is opinion, right? And I did a lot of polls on this on my Instagram account to kind of actually hear from queer people themselves. Like: "What is your preference?" "Do you want people to share that information with you?" "Does it matter?" "Do you care?" "Do you not care?" So, basically, my theory around this is, if you know you're queer, regardless of how recently or how long ago you received the information or you knew that information about yourself, you don't have to share where you're at in your queer journey. If you know that. If you're someone like me, where I really didn't know if I was queer when I started really taking queer people seriously, then I would say to share so that someone is able to fully consent to being in that experience with you and being on that journey with you. So that's, like, a difference between. You use the word exploration. I know I'm queer. I'm exploring versus experimentation, where I might dip my toe in and out of this before I totally understand what's going on for me. So I say if you're in that kind of camp, that it's kind to be transparent to the people that you're with, because a lot of queer people have been burned or hurt by folks who didn't disclose that they were really on more of an experimental journey, and then they realized that they're straight, and that's hurtful. Versus someone being like: "I am more on an experimental journey. Do you want to be on it with me? If not, that's okay". And that makes sense. You might not want to spend your time with me. So I think that that's best practice in my opinion. As far as the polls that I had done with my followers, a lot of people agreed with that, where if you were experimenting, they want to know. But as far as if you're exploring, they also kind of wanted to know so that they can handle the date or the sex or whatever it is with a bit more tenderness and a bit more care and consideration, maybe at a slower pace, which we should always be calibrating with the person that we're with anyway. But in general, there was a lot of really sweet comments about, like: "I would want to know so I can take better care of you", or things along those lines. But my last point I'll say about this is, I also loved what you were saying about not saying it as if you're like, I have this huge piece of information I need to give to you. It's more like, this is a part of my identity that I'm cool with. This is a part of myself that I'm cool with. And how you receive that information will tell me everything I need to know about you. So this is like we can share as more matter of fact when we're disclosing things like that.

M: Yeah, I'm actually curious to kind of bring this back to the idea of sharing this type of information on a first date or when you first meet someone and are exchanging numbers or whatever it might be when it's appropriate to disclose your relationship status. And is that something that you owe someone or is that something that you kind of decide with your partner? Like you don't need to share that you're in a relationship until it gets to a certain point where you feel like it's important. Where do you feel that those boundaries are ethically best used?

A: I would ask if you were the one asking me this question, if you were my client, I would say if the situation were reversed, you were the single person and you were going on a date with someone, at what point would you want to know that they were in a relationship?

M: I would want to know right away.

A: Me too. Yeah, it depends.

M: Yeah. And I'm very upfront. I'm a very big person on transparency and just like laying it out as it is. But I know that it is a tricky thing for a lot of people.

A: But it's like this is where we want to have right and wrong. We want to have ethical and non ethical. But a lot of times it does come down to personal choice. There's no research on this that tells you when's the best time. This is all like, we're sourcing this from ourselves. This is qualitative data. There is no right and wrong here. It's a lot a matter of preference to me, but I think that it's so important to navigate preference from the other person's point of view. What would I prefer if I were in your shoes? And to me that's total transparency. I don't want to go out with anybody who I don't know they're in a relationship before we go out. That feels like I didn't get a chance to really agree or not agree fully to this, but do I need to know someone's in a relationship if we make out at the club in pre Covid times? No, I don't really give a s***. I'm probably not going to see you again. So I think that it just depends on preference.

M: Yeah. And I think there's also a situation where it's in the reverse effect. So I'm thinking back, I made out with this girl at this club and was really into her. She was kind of really into me. I mean, we were doing all the things and she was like: "Oh, I would really love to take you on a date". However, I knew that her partner was also there, so I knew she was in a relationship. And me being upfront and knowing that information, I also was just like: "Okay, I'm cool with that. I would like that. But I cannot date your partner". So that is another thing that you can do. Kind of just upfront is just say your boundaries right away so that it didn't lead to a date. I don't think that had anything to do with it, but totally, it's just something to keep in mind for sure.

F: Yeah, I think the way that I deal with it, I think if you are going on a date with someone, you should definitely let them know that you are in a relationship, if that's the case, because that person has already put time and effort on going to wherever you guys are meeting, and it's kind of disrespectful. If that person is not interested and close to be with someone who's non-monogamous, then it's a waste of time for them and it's kind of an unpleasant surprise to have. You might want to talk to them because you might know that they're a little bit reluctant to non-monogamy. But you want to explain: "Oh, this doesn't mean that we cannot date or whatever", but you can have those conversations before you actually go and meet that person in person. And as you say, if you are at a club and it's someone you're never going to see again, maybe you don't need to disclose it. But for me, I normally don't disclose it right away before I even made out with this person. And I just said it because I feel like I need to put it out there, then it does create a barrier. So for me, it's like after we kiss, if we do kiss, then I'll be like: "See, I'm really enjoying this and we can totally see each other again. But I just want you to know that I have a partner". Because you don't know what's in the other person's head, right? And if the other person makes out with you and is like: "Oh, my God, I really wish she can be my girlfriend or my monogamous girlfriend or whatever", you kind of have to put a stop soon enough so you don't disappoint that person.

A: Or they'll be like: "I just wanted to make out, and I never want to see you again either". Or they could be like: "I'm also poly, that sounds great". So we never know. I think that's why it's so dependent on what we feel is best individually and through experience. And I think that the three of us seem to have, okay, we can make out, but then we need to disclose. Or if we're planning a date, like through a dating app or through a friend of friend, then it seems like we would all disclose before going on the date with someone.

F: Yeah, well, there's a couple of other topics that I'm interested in talking about. One of them is, I heard you mentioning that when two newly queer women are going out, because we are used to dating in a gender normative way, it's hard for the woman to make the first step, especially physically, right? Because we're used to have the guy make the first step, or whatever. So we might be a little bit more shy. I was wondering if you had any advice on that.

A: Yeah. So this is something that I only know this because people tell me this, right? So this is not in the data. This isn't like, my theory. This is like, clients say this, and then I realize it's a problem for many people. So I guess I specify that because I try to stay away from a lot of my content, a lot of my dating theory and education is really gender free, and I really pride myself on that and think that that is the future we should be moving in. We should be moving away from these traditional gender roles, particularly in queer dating. So this is something that some queer women have brought to my attention in this way, which I think is a really interesting thing. Someone I recorded a couple of podcasts with Cindra Banks on a relationships show. She calls this getting stuck in the shit. And she's australian, so that's how she says it. And when she said it for the first time, I was like: "I am obsessed with the idea of getting stuck in the shit". And she kind of talked to me about having this woman over at her apartment, and both of them just talked for hours and hours and hours, and neither of them made a move. And I was like, what hours and hours and hours? We need to figure out how to do this better. And so there is a few things that I would say, and there are so many options here. Automatically, kind of, you can sense this might be my style. I would be like: "How do you want someone to kiss you?" "Would you want them to say". And then you can be like: "Oh, I don't want them to say this". And I'm like: "Say that". So that's one way to get at it. But there's a few other things. One is closing the physical space between you two. So if you're at someone's house and someone gets up to go to the bathroom, then you can sit closer to them when you get back from the bathroom or whatever it is. Also, this can be the kind of thing that if you're out to eat or getting drinks or whatever, this could be also like crossing that physical barrier. It's like whatever we would consider to be our personal space before you kiss someone, you can kind of play with, like, how do I get closer to your physical space? What does that feel like? Where is the electricity here? What feels like it might be too much. Like, did they pull back? Does it seem like that made them uncomfortable? If I pass them a menu, what happens if we're both holding the menu at the same time? Or if I show them something on my phone? What happens when I'm really close to them, right next to them that way? So the, there's all these things that can happen, getting closer to someone before actually kissing them or making a move. So I would say, like, try to close the space between you two. Experiment with what that feels like.

But the other main advice I have here is to name what is happening. I just watched this Instagram reel the other day, I think from Awaken Sexy. This is what I've been doing in teaching clients. But I thought the way that they explained this was so good of breaking up your desire from the ask. So basically saying: "I want to kiss you. Can I do that?" Versus can "I kiss you?" Where then you have to make a couple of decisions all at one time. So it's saying your desire, I really want to kiss you. Can I do that and ask? But again, I would encourage you listeners to think about how would I want someone to kiss me when we've been talking for 5 million hour? And what would I want them to say to me? Why don't I try that first?

F: Yeah. And that also ties into the conversation of nonverbal consent, right? Maybe without crossing the boundary of touching them, or maybe if you feel like it's safe, like a very friendly touch or whatever, but kind of like trying it a little bit and checking in to see how the person is feeling. And this is a tip that I also feel like guys should know when they are like, especially guys when they are approaching a woman, if they're hetero, sometimes in their nervousness, they just go for it and they don't read the signs when it's very obvious. If the other person is attracted to you, you just have to make a really small move and then take a second to check how the other person is responding to that. And you've also talked about a situation in which you don't know not only if the other person likes you, but if the other person is queer and you actually wrote an Ebook about it, which I'll link in the show notes. And I think that that can work as well in those situations. And also for couples who might be looking to hook up with other people more typically, at least in what I've seen with my community, is like a couple wanting to hook up with a girl or myself. My experience, like being approached by a couple. They might know I'm polyamorous, but they might not know if I'm bi. If I'd be interested on playing with a couple. And I do think that it's important to have that conversation of: "Hey, would you be interested in that?" But before having that conversation, you can also kind of play a little bit with those boundaries and check how the person is responding.

A: Totally. I think that's so important. And it's shocking. Sometimes when I'm doing research to prepare for modules and prepare for the video lessons and stuff that I do, I see information telling people to touch each other and I'm just like: "What are you doing?" You shouldn't be touching people right away. That's not how you flirt. You can't go right into touching like that. We need to totally be calibrating before we ever get to that point. Sometimes I call this pre-flirting, like the stuff that you do before you actually flirt with someone, which can be nonverbally. Like, we're talking about crossing the personal space barrier, I guess is the best way to say that, or testing the personal space barrier a bit without touching. Also, there's ways to do this with actual communication, like conversations. See if someone's picking up what you're putting down. This is all pre-flirting. We don't need to go right into like: "You look so good". We can gauge someone's interest first. So I think that is super important, what you're saying about taking a moment to recognize what that is and understanding that that's not a skill we're taught. So this is something that I go over in the bootcamp that I run. But also if you're someone that has trouble picking up cues like this, I just want to say that is totally normal that you would have trouble with this. This is something that we are really not taught. It's all based on what we've seen or what we've been able to be receptive to. So there are people that can teach you this. Mia at Consent Wizard or the Consent Wizard on Instagram, teaches a nonverbal consent class. So that's a great resource. If you kind of don't like listening to this conversation, or you're: "Huh, I don't know if I would be able to tell how someone's responding". If I took that moment to check in, then I would definitely recommend checking out Mia's work.

F: Yeah. And also you can try it, and if you're still not able to tell, but after you try it a little bit, then you can be upfront and be like: "Hey, I'm interested in you, or me and my partner are interested in you, and we are not really sure if you are".

A: Totally

F: Something else that I liked a lot about what you've mentioned specifically with not knowing if the other person is queer or not. Sometimes it's not just whether they are queer or not, but: "Are you interested in me?"

A: Exactly.

F: The question doesn't have to be: "Are you gay?" Because they might say yes, but then that doesn't mean that they like you or they might not be or not know whether they are.

A: And you might like me.

F: Yeah, but they might be like: "You know what? Never tried it. But now that you bring up that idea, maybe I want to".

A: Exactly. I totally think that's what we should be assessing people for versus assessing folks for queerness, because some people have different levels of access to that information at different times. So, yeah, I totally, totally agree with that.

Also, I want to name, too, that, yes, we might be folks that have difficulty picking up social cues, but also people do not express these social cues in the same way. And this varies greatly, especially as it relates to disability or neurodivergence. So if you're having trouble either picking up on someone else's social cues or you're seeing a social cue, that it feels ambiguous to you based on the way that someone's expressing it to you, that is okay to just ask, to be upfront about what it is that you're looking for and trying to get clarity on what it is that the other person is experiencing.

F: Yeah, for sure.

M: Yeah. I love that because I know that we deal with this a lot in the community here. The sex positive community here is there are situations sometimes where I think it's just people who are not able to tell and so they're working in what they believe is right, but they don't know because they can't pick up those cues. So I think knowing that there's a resource out there too, that can help with that and help people who are not innate with it, that's great.

A: Yeah, totally.

F: Something that I've encountered is that I'm also very much on your camp of approaching relationships in a very communicative way. But often people are not like, on the same camp as you are. And I've had experiences in which I've just been very open and honest from the beginning. And then I see that the other person doesn't receive that well and it's kind of like playing the game. Despite me opening up the conversation, it seems like that person still just wanted to play it cool or might take my directness as like: "Oh, she's too forward". So I was wondering if you had any advice on that, because there's a lot of things like: "Oh, I'm going to wait to respond the text". So that person, the waiting game and things like that, I don't like playing games. But then you do text back immediately and then that person does take 3 hours, even though you know that they saw the text. And you are like, you feel kind of hurt because you are like: "I'm trying to play straight and this person's still cheating".

A: Totally. So I think that this comes down to a matter of preference. Like you, I don't like playing games. I don't advocate playing games. I advocate transparency. That's like really non gameplay. That's really non mysterious. I think there are other ways to create intimacy and mystery that don't have to do with you guessing how I feel about you. So I think that when you find yourself in a situation like that, I would really ask yourself: "How do I feel when interacting with this person?" Because that might give you all the answers that you need. Like: "How do I actually feel when interacting with this person?" Not "How amazing do I think this person is?" "How am I feeling?" Because if you're texting with this person, they're not responding or they're playing a game with you and you're saying that you feel hurt. What is it that's keeping you there? We have more agency and choice around these people that we choose to interact with or not. And if someone has a vastly different communication style than us, especially if we voiced a preference in this way, then it just might not be a match.

M: Yeah, absolutely. I think that's a good tip, too, is to actually communicate. If you are feeling like, oh, this person might not like me, or I feel like they're playing games, just point it out and just say: "Hey, I really like you. I noticed that it's taking a long time for you to respond. Is that usually your communication style or what's going on here?"

A: Totally. I think it's like there's a bit of wiggle room, maybe is how I want to say this. I'm not sure, but leeway in the beginning where you're also seeing what is this person's norm and calibrating against that. So I think that exactly what you're saying is, is this the type of texture that you are? I just want to be in the know, so I'm not taking this personally. I think all of that's okay. And to handle those conversations with a sense of lightness versus a sense of you're doing this wrong, or, I don't like this, with a sense of curiosity of, like, I think you're cool. I'm trying to get to know you and understand the way that you like to talk to people, like: "Are you a texter?" "Do you prefer phone calls?" "Are you a 'let's just talk when we meet up? kind of person' " "What's your style here?"

M: Yeah, I remember when James and I started dating, within the first two weeks, we definitely, we went in really fast. But he did get to me one point and was like: "Hey, I just want to let you know that I'm really a bad texter, and if you don't hear from me for a few hours or a day or whatever, it means nothing". So I really appreciated him saying that because I am a huge texter and he has to remind me that all the time because sometimes now.

A: Totally.

M: We've been together for over a year, and it still is a thing, and sometimes it still hurts just because I am such a texter. But he just gives me a gentle reminder. It's interesting in that way.

A: Totally. Yeah. It's great that he communicated that with you.

F: Yeah. And I love that you mentioned to also think about how you're feeling. That's another thing that I love about your work, that instead of approaching dating in an outcome based mentality of this is what I want to get out of this person. Really question yourself. Like: "How is this person making me feel?" And that sometimes tells you more about whether that person is the right person or maybe about what you need to communicate better in the relationship to feel more comfortable.

A: Yeah. And knowing ahead of time, how it is that you actually want to be feeling when you're on dates and when you're in relationships so that you have something to match it up against.

M: Yeah, I love that.

F: So there's one last question, which is one that we ask every guest. What would you tell to a polycurious person that can be someone who's new in their journey or just yourself? When you were starting and you were curious about non-monogamy but didn't really know how to go about it, you.

A: Don't have to do it alone. Read the books that are written, listen to the podcasts that are made. Find the people who are exploring in the way that you are so that you feel some kind of support moving through this journey, or find a polyaffirming therapist.

F: Thank you so much, Ariella. This was truly great and there's so much insight and so many resources just like packed in this. So like, I really appreciate your time. I'm sure listeners appreciate you and your knowledge, and I'm sure they all want to connect with you. I'll link your Instagram, all of that. But if you want to tell us how best to connect so they can hear it as well.

A: Yeah, definitely through Instagram is the best way. I'm not sure if by the time this episode comes out, if I will have just started the next round of Date Better Bootcamp. But if what I was saying sounded good to you and you're curious to know more about that, you can feel free to send me a DM or there's a chance I'll have another waitlist up in my link and bio on Instagram. So feel free to fill that out if I started the next round and then I'll invite you to the round after that.

F: Right? And your handle is Queer Dating Coach. Easy to remember.

A: That's it. Queer Dating Coach.

F: Amazing. Thank you so much, Ariella.