Jasmine: This girl is like, I'm so sorry I stole your girlfriend from you. And then she looks at us, and she's like, wait, is she your girlfriend? And Felipe's like, I don't know. And so I'm like.

Felipe: I said, would you like to be my girlfriend? Which is in Chile that's like, that's how you ask.

J: Everyone is like, there's people on the couch behind us having sex, everyone is naked, and the whole party stops, and it's like: "Oh, my God, she said yes. They just became boyfriend and girlfriend".

Fernanda: Hi, everyone. This is Polycurious. I am Fernanda, your host, and I have a great episode for you today. But before we start, I wanted to invite you to check out a podcast episode I was in last fall. The podcast is called the MGC Podcast, and the host, Mark Gervino, was really new to the idea of open relationships, and I feel like that led to a very interesting conversation around gender norms in non-monogamy and how my relationship works, about how to approach the non-monogamous subject with your partner. If you're new to this and so much more, so check it out. I feel like you might enjoy it. To find it, you'll have to follow us on Instagram at Polycurious Podcast. Easy to remember, and then you just go to the link in bio. Okay, now onto today's episode.

So this conversation was with my friends Jasmine and Felipe. They have been together for about a year and a half, and with the exception of a short period at the beginning of their relationship, they have only had experiences as a couple and mostly with women. And in this conversation, we touch on so many interesting topics. We chat about how an experience they had early on made them decide to temporarily close their relationship and also taught them to be vulnerable and honest and to establish clear boundaries. We chat about how they both are somewhat open to the idea of seeing people independently, but at the same time, it feels a little threatening to them. We talk about how flirting and making moves on friends can be a little tricky and how, after the pandemic, they both feel more secure in their relationship.

Jasmine is learning to be more forward, and they are having more experiences together than during the harshest part of the pandemic. And we also hear a lot of sexy stories, like how they became official at a play party. And at the end, they tell us how they had an unexpectedly hot experience with a couple in Chile. As you can probably tell, that is a lot to get to, so we better get started. Here's my interview with Jasmine and Felipe.

F: Hi, guys. Welcome to Polycurious. I'm so happy to have you here and to really get to know you better and know your story better. And we've already had so many interesting conversations that I'm sure that this is going to be great. So thank you for being here.

J: Thanks for having us.

Felipe: Yeah, we're very excited.

F: Yes, me too. So before we go into more of your story, can you start by maybe introducing yourselves for our listeners?

Felipe: Hi, I'm Felipe. I'm 40 and a half, and I'm an immigrant. I've been almost ten years in this country. And first I moved to the West Coast, and now I've been about five years in New York.

J: I'm Jasmine. I'm from Maine, and I've lived in New York for most of the last ten years, with a little adventure in the middle where I left.

F: Which we'll get into it. But before we talk about when you guys met, can you tell me individually in your journey how you came to be interested in non-monogamy?

Felipe: Well, I'm from Chile, and being chilean is like, we've been told or instructed to always be very cookie cutter, very vanilla, very monogamous. And I've always have an interest to explore outside the box in many aspects of my life. And after living a couple of years in San Francisco, the story starts by coming to New York. Actually, I went to an I Feel Party. I Feel Neon Party, as well.

F: Oh. Which we were just at on Friday a couple of days ago. Oh, that's so funny.

Felipe: If we go back eight or seven years ago.

F: Coming full circle.

Felipe: Yes, totally. So become really good friends with this friend. We start going to some Burning parties, and he tells me: "I'm going to a play party and I'm a plus one. Everybody's in a couple. There's a lot of couples. But they're letting me in, like, as a single guy". Right. And I'm asking, can I bring another guy? And it was very, in general, there's not a lot of space for single guys.

F: Yeah. In many play parties, they don't allow single guys.

Felipe: It was a house thing, it was about 20 people. And there were a couple of single girls. So they were like: "Oh". He really vouched for me, he's a guy, but he's not going to cross any boundaries. And I was set in the mind of going as an observer, and I went there. I was really nervous. I did a little bit of a molly. It was kind of illegal because we were supposed not to be under influences. But it made me open and relaxed and happy, and I went from being the guy in the corner to basically interacting in a very intimate way with many people that day. Everybody got to introduce and everybody get to say where they were in their openness journey and in their playful journey. And because of that, I received a lot of introductory cuddles and welcoming, and I ended up having a great night. And that opened now to going back to where I was living in San Francisco to have my eyes open for opportunities where that.

F: So you were just visiting here?

Felipe: I was starting to come one week a month. I was doing by coast, and it was my first trip to New York. And now back in my life in San Francisco, I started being more aware and I started to go to more organized, maybe bigger play parties. Probably seven years ago, like, right around there, I started seeing somebody. And she was also interested. She was coming from being open in an open relationship, in an open marriage, actually kind of that dissolves, and we started dating.

F: And was that your last non-monogamous relationship before you met Jasmine?

Felipe: No. Then there were other relationships. Now I moved to New York and I went into a couple of relationships. My first relationship in New York, she definitely didn't want anything open and she was very open minded, but this was not for her and that was great. We actually broke up because for my birthday, one friend from my play group, or former play group, kissed me, or we kissed for my birthday. I was a little bit high and she saw this and she was really p*****. Then I think my previous relationship, right before Jasmine or a couple of years, was with a nice jewish girl that when she met me, I think in her mind, she thought, I have to be super open and super crazy because, Felipe, that's what Felipe is into. That's what's all in her mind. We haven't spoken anything. I didn't even mention Burning Man or anything, but just in the way I behave. We met on the first date. She says: "Oh, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, threesomes". And you can see that it was somebody not into that

F: How did she...

Felipe: I have no idea.

F: Did she know that you were interested in?

Felipe: I have no idea. So this was the first. And then she was actually pushing that agenda. Pushing that agenda. And she made it happen. However, it didn't work in her mind as she wanted and ended up with cries and with a lot of guilt and we ended up breaking up. And she will say that I was sick or that I had the wrong influences in my life, that everything was f***** up, so didn't end up well.

F: But why did she say that if she was the one who pushed for the openness?

Felipe: I don't know. She was probably trying to be very complacent. And now that's one of the things that I am very careful that I can read through and make sure that this is not just to please me. Right?

F: Yeah, it's interesting. I feel like I've heard that from a lot of people, like women not wanting to be open, but just being open because their partner wants that and thinking that if they are not that way, their partner will leave them or just devalue them or whatever. So it's good that you are aware that that's something that can happen in a relationship. How about you, Jasmine? We've spoken a little bit about it. I think you'd mentioned that you had had more experiences with couples, like being the third.

J: Yes, exactly. My relationship history was all monogamous or like serial long term monogamous dater where I had three two year relationships and one seven year relationship.

F: Wow.

J: Sort of back to back. Like, I didn't really date in between. I didn't have a lot of experience with casual hookups or the dating scene. And when I left my seven year relationship, I changed that. I decided I'm going to take some time just for me to be single and to really experiment with anything I've wanted to try, like dating women and going to play parties. Like, I started to hear from my girlfriends that they would go to play parties alone, single, and parties that are safe, where they take care to protect and encourage single women to feel okay and to feel comfortable. Like you said, most play parties, single men are not allowed or encouraged, and there's rules. So if you go as a single woman, you feel very safe. And I decided, that sounds interesting. I'll try that. So I went to a couple of those. I had a really fun time, and I had some experiences dating couples, both in a more casual way, like meeting at a play party and sharing a night together, and then with one couple seeing them more regularly, like a very close friendship, that sometimes we would just have a night and watch movies and cook and hang out together. And then sometimes we would spend the night together in bed and be more intimate. And it was very easy to flow back and forth between being more sensual and sexual or just being more friends.

F: That's nice. Yeah, it sounds like a friends with benefits situation with a couple, which sounds kind of cool.

J: Lovely.

F: That's nice. And why did that end?

J: It hasn't necessarily ended. It's more, it's location based. I met them when I was traveling. That break that I took from New York. I was living in a van for a couple of years, traveling, so I met them early on in that journey. They also had a van, and we did some trips together, and we're still very close friends. And if we see each other, there's now the opportunity that it could be more than friends. Like, they've met Felipe. We've hung out a couple of times, and I think there's this sort of simmering tension of maybe we'll lean more into swinging and playing together. That hasn't happened yet, but it's definitely not off the table.

F: Do you know if they've had experiences with couples or only with women? I think they've had more experiences just with women or dating separately. The guy in that relationship is also bisexual, so they both sort of date men and women, but not as much experience swinging, I think.

F: That's awesome that you had that experience. And actually, that ties in nicely with my next question, which is about how you guys met. And just to give some context for the listeners, when you were living in a van, that was right before the pandemic, right?

J: Yes. I left New York in the end of 2019, so pandemic was not even in our vocabulary then, and just decided I was at a point in my life where I wanted to leave my job and leave my apartment. My lease was up, and I wanted to try living somewhere new. And first I wanted to travel the country in a van and figure out where I might want to live next. So, yeah, I left, and my journey really started, like, christmas of 2019, and I just left from the East Coast and drove to the Southwest and had the plan to drive around the country, just meeting people, going to different places to national parks to hike, and having as many new experiences as I could.

F: Yeah. And it's funny because your idea was to maybe not come back to New York.

J: Yes, exactly. The goal was to live somewhere else entirely that I would figure out along the way, but realized throughout the journey that it's really hard to leave a community like the one that we have here.

F: Yes. And also, that's when you met Felipe, who lived in York. So, yeah, why don't you tell us about that? Yeah.

J: So I met Felipe at a mini Burning Man party in 2020 that when the real Burn was canceled and a bunch of friends from New York had organized this smaller micro Burn and rented a house together in Utah. So I ended up there through an invite from a friend who is in the New York community. And I went not knowing anybody except this one person just showing up at a house full of then strangers in the middle of a pandemic. And everyone was super welcoming and super friendly. Just made me feel like family, and I feel like I found 50 new friends that week and also the love of my life.

F: But, yeah, tell us about how. I mean, I know you guys met at that event, but how did you meet? Were you on the dance floor or were you like...

J: We were... I was in a cuddle puddle with

F: Great place to meet a cuddle puddle.

J: I was in a cuddle puddle with a girl that I had met there, and we had spent the day. We had had a nice little mushroom trip, and a friend had driven us around through this national park and just had this beautiful day of connecting and getting to know each other and listening to music, being outside in nature. And we came back to the house. We're in the cuddle puddle just chatting and laughing about how fun that day was. And I don't know, at some point, Felipe walks by, and this girl's like: "Oh, have you met Felipe?". I'm like: "Not really". We chatted by the pool yesterday briefly, but we weren't really introduced. And she's like: "You have to meet Felipe. Felipe, come over here and tell us jokes. Tell us funny stories".

F: "Felipe make a demonstration of how cool you are".

J: Felipe is like "Of course, I'd be happy to". Jumps over a couch, jumps into the cuddle puddle with us and shares a bunch of his stories. Tells us like: "Oh, I do amateur stand up comedy. Let me tell you some stories".

F: Oh, I didn't know that.

Felipe: First of all, we flirted. She didn't know we flirted, but we flirted, at least from me in the pool that day before. She didn't know we were flirting. "Hello, new girl". And we just interacted from the far. And then I'm coming back, walking, and I see these two gorgeous people cuddling in the cuddle puddle. And our friend said: "Oh, have you met Felipe? He's so funny. He does comedy. Come tell us jokes". So I was set up for success. It was a grateful assist from this friend.

J: Yeah. And I don't know, I just fell immediately. I was laughing all day. He's telling all these jokes, and I don't know, I could have just listened to you talk for hours. And then the rest of that night, we were dancing together, feeling closer and closer throughout the night. And the end of the night, like the morning. The next day, he asked me: "Can I kiss you?" And I said no, because I didn't want to make this impulsive decision after I don't know, it was in the middle of COVID I haven't really been meeting new people, and here I am at this party. I meet all these new people, and the first day, I had already kissed this girl in the middle of the mushroom trip.

F: Oh, that's the girl?

J: Yeah.

F: I was wondering if you were like vibing in that way.

J: Yeah. And she was there with her boyfriend, so I wasn't trying to date her. But I'm like, hey, we had a vibe. We had a thing. And then other guys asking me to kiss him. I'm like...

F: Oh so you didn't want to commit?

J: I don't want to be the new girl at the party that just shows up and makes out with everybody. I felt like this is going to be a really weird image to project, so I said no. And then the whole next day, he was working. A lot of us had a day party. We were partying all day. He wasn't there. He wasn't there all day and all night. I just kept thinking, like: "I'm an idiot. I should have said yes. Why did I say no?" And I couldn't stop thinking about him. And later that night, we're on the dance floor again, and he says: "I already asked you if I could kiss you, and you said no. So if you want to kiss me, you have to ask me".

F: That's a good way of handling the situation. Right? Because consent is important. But then obviously, he probably sensed that you did want to kiss him. So when you said no, what did you say? You were like: "No, I'm sorry" and that's it? Or did you tell him: "I don't want to be the girl kissing everyone at the party?" When she said no, then I said: "What about tiny bites?" And started giving her tiny bites in her neck all that night.

J: I said yes to that?

Felipe: Yes. She said yes to that.

J: It's hard to say no. I was just...

J: to these things.

Felipe: I took it pretty well. I kind of sensed the vibe. I've already been observing the behavior of this two butterflies, flirting and making out. So I kind of understood. Also, it was becoming a little bit fun and challenging because it was evident. And with this other girl, who's my friend, we will obviously fun competing. Like, we were looking at each other, and it's like: "Now it's my turn to flirt with her", and I will go to the bathroom and she'll sleek in, and it's like: "Hello". So it was very funny and silly, and it was clear that she didn't say no in a definitive way. And I didn't feel pushing.

J: Yeah. It wasn't like: "No". And also: "we're not going to keep dancing. I'm going to bed now". It's just like: "No, but let's keep dancing".

F: No, but everything else is saying yes.

J: Everything else, yes.

F: Yeah. That's cute. So then you had to ask him?

J: Yes.

Felipe: Oh, after I said: "I'm not going to ask you again, so you have to ask me". And she said: "Can I kiss you?" Immediatly. As an answer to that.

J: Immediately. It was like a 30 seconds delay, maybe.

F: Oh, that's cute.

J: And the end of that week, they all went back to New York, and I went back into the van, and from there, we kept in touch by phone and came to New York and came to visit and stayed with him for a couple of weeks. I was coming for a long weekend, and then it ended up being a couple of weeks.

F: Oh, really? You changed your flight?

J: I drove in the van.

F: All right, you were in the van.

J: Yeah. We actually went to our first play party during those weeks. And I don't know, just every conversation that we had had, we shared that we had both sort of been curious about this, and we've both joined other people's relationships that have been open where we're the third or we're like a secondary partner, but we haven't really had a relationship where we're the primary relationship and going to play parties together and going to or going on dates together. And that, that was something we were both curious about. So during the time I was here, it was kind of like, well, I won't be back again for a while, so let's do everything possible within the confines of COVID of course. So we had a couple of dinners and little house parties where everyone gets tested first and make sure that we're all negative...

Felipe: For COVID.

J: For COVID, obviously. And during those two weeks, it happened to be a friend's birthday party. Who's in the placing. I hadn't met this group of friends yet, but it's the kind of birthday party that's like dinner and drinks and then transforms into a play party later in the night that I've never been to before. All my experiences with play parties have been commercial ticketed events that maybe, you know, some people there, but it's not a group of friends necessarily, and this is all a group of friends.

F: That sounds cool. Yeah. I feel like I haven't had that experience, actually. I mean, I've been to smaller play parties, but with people that I don't really know that well. And even then, it was nice that it was smaller. I think the smallest one was, like, eight people. And I had a really great time, even though I didn't know anyone except the one person who invited me. But, yeah, that sounds cool. And when you were having those experiences, was it how you imagined it, or was there any tension, like jealousy, or was there any difficult part about it? Well, first of all, how much did you engage with others?

J: Not so much. We both flirted and made out with some other people, but I don't think we really went beyond that with other people.

Felipe: This was the same crew now, six years forward from my first play party in New York. Now that I'm back in New York, this became a group of friends, and this is, I don't know, 12-14 people birthday, including my best friend is there. Right?

J: And I was so nervous. He's like: "Oh, you're going to meet my best friend tonight. And then all these other friends", and I'm like... "and then we're going to have sex with them".

F: Yeah. Added pressure. As if it wasn't wrecking on its own.

Felipe: So we started... Well, she started interacting with the host or one of the hosts, and we were just admiring these two gorgeous women dancing and undressing each other.

F: Oh, Jasmine was dancing and undressing this girl. That kick off the getting undressed part.

F: One of the host. I love it. "I'm so nervous about this". And then you go there and undress the host.

J: Well, I was feeling better by that point, because I realized we hadn't really talked about what it would mean to actually go to a party together. We'd had all these lovely, fun, sexy conversations of fantasies of, like: "Oh, and if we go together, and if we find someone cute, these are all the things that we could do. That sounds so fun and so amazing. We should do it. We have the opportunity to do this. This is great". And then we're in the cab on the way over there, realizing I'm super nervous. I'm freaking out at this point. Oh, my gosh. I'm so overwhelmed. I'm meeting your friends, and all of this is too much. And first he reassures me, like: It's just a birthday party. We go, we have drinks, we have some food, we hang out. You meet all my friends, and then if we don't want to stay, we don't have to. Let's just take it hour by hour". And so we're there, and I'm like: Okay, everyone here is so nice". I feel very relaxed and very comfortable. I still don't quite know how we're going to transition from this into a play party. But I feel really comfortable here. And as things were transitioning from cocktails to dancing to undressing and getting a little more intimate, we stepped outside to the balcony to have another talk of like: "Okay, we're going to stay for this. And now what are we comfortable with? What are we hoping to achieve? Who are you interested in?" Both of us. "What would we be interested in playing separately? That feels a little scary, but let's just take it slow and check in with each other a lot".

So by that point, I'm feeling very reassured that we're here together, primarily, even though at this point, we weren't even officially dating. But we're treating it as, like, we're here together, and our priority is making sure that we feel safe together, and then we can explore from there.

F: Yeah, like a team effort.

J: Yeah, exactly.

F: So then that's when you decided to undress her?

Felipe: I didn't.

F: No, I was looking at Jasmine.

J: Yes. So during our chat on the balcony before the party, we had both sort of mentioned like, oh, this one girl is really gorgeous. I'm like: "Yes, I know. I would love to make out with her. I'd love to maybe play with her. And if we could play as the three of us, that would be great". So it was really great that she was into me as well. So we were flirting. We're dancing, we're undressing each other, we're making out, and sort of. I look up for air, find where Felipe is, like, okay, we're still... just make eye contact. He's flirting with somebody else. Like, this is good. We're all good.

Felipe: I was chatting with her husband, and we were just admiring two of you. We always flirted with each other, but we were just having drinks and saying, this is wonderful. Look at this happening. This is beautiful magic. Look at the girl I brought. And he's like: "Yeah, well done". So that actually led to a really fun moment of the night, which was when this girl and I are in the middle of making out, and Felipe comes over, and he's like: "Oh, hi". I was like: "Oh, hi. I was just thinking about you. I miss you". And this girl is like: "I'm so sorry I stole your girlfriend from you". And then she looks at us, and she's like: "Wait, is she your girlfriend?" And Felipe's like: "I don't know. Are you my girlfriend?"

Felipe: I said: "Would you like to be my girlfriend?" Which is in Chile. That's like, that's how you ask.

J: And so obviously, I said, yes. And then the whole party, everyone is like, there's people on the couch behind us having sex. Everyone is naked, and the whole party stops, and it's like: "Oh, my God. She said, yes. They just became boyfriend and girlfriend".

F: Oh, my God. I love this story. You became a couple at a play party.

J: Yes.

Felipe: To my family, I said, we became a couple at a birthday party, which is accurate.

F: Yeah, that's how you have to cover it. Like, when people ask, how did I meet Mariah? The co-host of this podcast, we actually met at a play party, and we didn't play then, but then when people ask like her parents were asking the other day, and we were like, we both looked at each other like: "how do we respond to that?" And it was like: "At a party", you just take the play out of the party and then it's fine.

J: Exactly.

F: But that night, you guys didn't go much further than that?

J: No with other people, no.

F: Just with each other.

J: Just with each other.

F: That's nice.

J: Really leaned into that because I've never gone to a play party with a partner before. And the play parties that I'd been to, I'd only played with women, so I haven't even played and had sex with a man at a play party. So this was totally new. And then to do it in such a small space where we're sort of the center of attention for a while, it was really fun to lean into that and enjoy that experience and feel very safe and very comfortable.

F: That's awesome.

J: Yeah.

Felipe: We did a couple of shows in that day.

F: The new couple. Here it is the new couple. Look at them.

Felipe: Yeah. We were active for longer, while everybody else was just resting. We were still, basically we're giving a show. Everybody was chilling and looking at us

F: With their popcorn.

Felipe: Yeah. Basically, claps. When we met and then we stay in touch through video and calls and mostly and then she visited twice. We were also, because of the pressure and because of how new this was and not jump into anything, of course, we were seeing other people at the beginning.

And after we started dating and put labels on this, we kept it like that for a bit and for a while, because I was exposed in New York to everything. Every day of the week, we were sharing stuff like: "Hey, I did this, I did that, I went on a date". And it was mostly from me because she was alone in a van in the middle of deserts or national parks, in pandemic where you don't meet new people, it was clear that this was unbalanced and somehow unfair. And we put a pause on that, right? And for a bit, even though we were remote, we were not seeing other people. That sped up. How often we had to see each other.

J: Well it's hard, from the beginning, from that first trip that I visited, and we went to the play party, and we become boyfriend and girlfriend officially. And as I was leaving at the end of those two weeks, we realized we have, like, five or six weeks apart before we see each other again. But now we're official, and it's labeled, and we have this talk of, like: "Well, do we want to keep seeing other people and keep it open?" And I'm like: "Of course. Yeah, absolutely". I'm a little nervous, but totally feel secure. And I really thought that I was and I could be. It was really hard to, I don't know, try it and realize, like: "Oh, this is actually painful and difficult", even though I feel, like, mentally, I feel secure and I want to be okay with this, and I don't think I have an issue with it. But then we would talk, and he's like: "Oh, is it okay if I go on a date?" "Yeah, of course. Have fun. Let's talk tomorrow". And then he didn't have cell phone access for, like, a whole day when that date happened. And then the whole night I'm up with a stomachache and feeling nauseous.

F: And on your own?

J: And on my own and in my head.

F: Not knowing anyone.

J: Yes. And being alone and isolated really magnified all of the feelings that I didn't expect to have in the first place. And then I have, and I'm, like, trying to dissect it. Like, I'm pretty good at self analyzing, but even then I'm like: "Why am I jealous? Am I jealous?" I guess I don't really feel threatened by him seeing somebody else, but yet I'm still having this very physical response of, like, my stomach would just be a ball of nerves, like butterflies, and we'd talk the next day. And "How was it?" "Oh, it was fun". "How are you?" And I'm like: "I'm not okay". And I don't want to be that person that's flip flopping and saying, oh, it's fine. Oh, it's not fine. Now it's fine. But actually, it's not. But, yeah, navigating how to communicate that.

F: Well, it's better to be that way than to say it's fine and then realizing it isn't and then just not saying anything. You are a bigger person for being like: "oh, actually, I feel different". And that's also something that I talk about in the podcast. And I like to remind people it's okay to change your boundaries, and it's okay to change and think that you're going to feel fine with one thing and then realizing it isn't so good for you for communicating that immediately instead of just keeping it to yourself.

J: Yeah, it felt more to me. I wasn't afraid of him being intimate with somebody else in the way of kissing or having sex with somebody else. I wasn't threatened by the idea of that, but I'm threatened by, or I was threatened by the idea of being perceived by our friends that he was seducing her and romancing her and that they'd be seen as more of a couple. And I think I still sort of have a boundary in my head of like oh, if you see somebody on a date and you go home with them, versus you spend the night with them, and you wake up together and you shower together and you have breakfast, and those things make it feel more intimate to me versus just the physical part, it's like the emotional part. I was uncertain about how that date had gone, and in my head, all the worst things could have been happening. And then when we talked about it later, I was like: "Oh, actually, the worst things weren't happening. This is what actually happened". And some of those things did hurt. It's not an easy conversation to have about why that went differently than planned and kind of learned a little bit better how to discuss boundaries. There were some questions here like: "Oh, what are you comfortable with?" And I would say: "Oh, I would prefer if this didn't happen, or maybe try to avoid this and not be explicit and direct". And that leaves it very open to interpretation. And so that taught me to set clear boundaries, like: Oh, I'm definitely not okay with this and be very upfront about it". I really pushed myself to be honest in a way that I haven't been in past relationships where I wouldn't necessarily speak up if I was upset about something, I would kind of internalize it and try not to talk about it so much until it became this thing I'd stewed on. I was like: "Okay, now I'm really upset". So with this, in this relationship, I've been open about it from the start. Like, if I'm hurting about something, I just push myself to say: "Hey, I don't know how to have this conversation. I don't know how to say this, but I'm hurt by this. Can we talk about it?" And so it led to this really amazing conversation.

About him reassuring me, like: "I really care for you. I would not do anything to mess this up or hurt you. And I'm sorry that this hurt you. Obviously was not my intention". And me acknowledging and saying, instead of just saying, oh, it's okay. Saying, like, yeah, I was hurt by this. And also, we're okay. It's not going to break us. I feel like even if we're not on the same page about something, I feel like we're on the same team and we're supporting each other and we're working towards the same thing. Even as we were having the conversation, I was verbalizing to him, like, okay, this is really challenging, and I'm not necessarily happy that it happened, but also, I can see the value already in this conversation that we're having is that we're learning so much about each other and about boundaries and how to do this properly and communicating. And even though I'm still sad and upset, I'm also happy that we're able to talk about this so well. And I feel so much trust and safety and love, and it was amazing to feel all of that at the same time.

F: And that's when you decided to stop seeing people separately, right?

J: Exactly. That was when we had that conversation saying, like: Okay, while we're in these separate places, like, you're in the city, I'm in the van, I'm often in total isolation. Let's put a pause on this and revisit when I come back to the city. And then we're more on equal footing".

F: Yeah. And as you mentioned, it also taught you to set your boundaries, this is not the case, but, for example: you can sleep with someone but no breakfast, or being really clear about your boundaries and what you're comfortable with and stepping up to the truth of your feelings.

J: Yeah. And I think also for us, it's important and helpful to explain why that boundary is, like, not just saying, okay, you can have sex but no breakfast, and it's not like, okay, if you really wanted to stay over and have breakfast, okay, we can talk about that, but not to just say the boundary because it's a scary thing and we don't talk about that, or we don't do that, but to say why? And be like, okay, I don't want you to stay over and have breakfast because that feels like a relationship that feels so intimate and that's something that I want us to share and that I feel threatened by that. And to have a bigger conversation about it than to just put a solid boundary and say, no breakfast, end of story.

F: Yeah, I think that's a great point, and I'm so glad that you guys have that communication. But when it comes to the sexual aspect, sounds like you haven't really experienced much jealousy, because you've told me about how you've been turned on by seeing Felipe with other women. If it's purely sexual, you don't feel that jealous, right?

J: Yeah. I'm not sure that it's because it's purely sexual. There's been women that we flirt with and seduce and we bring home and play with them. It's not that it's purely sexual. There's an emotional connection there that we're both feeling. But I think I'm not jealous because we're both feeling it and because I'm there. Like, I'm seeing it happen. I love it. I love watching him flirt and make out with other girls and f*** other girls in front of me is, like, such a turn on. It's so sexy, and I think I'm part of it. And part of the reason why it's so hot is that I'm there. I'm watching it happen. And there is a distinction in my mind. Like, if I'm not there and I know he's on a date with somebody later, if we talk about it, I want to know all the details. And I do think it's really hot, and I enjoy that conversation. I'm like: "Tell me more". But during the act, if he's off on a date and I'm home alone, I can't find it sexy because my brain is just spinning out of, like, because

F: It's the uncertainty, right?

J: Exactly.

F: Not knowing. Yeah, exactly. Not knowing. And making ideas in your head. Like you were when he was hanging out with this girl in front of his friends, which turned out that he wasn't even.

J: It was not the case.

F: It was not the case that people were, like, looking.

J: But then you start making ideas in your head, and it's just, like, about knowing exactly where you stand.

J: Yeah, exactly.

Felipe: Something that, if I look back and think of what went well, even though this was difficult, is also from my end, is not denying that this is something I wanted. This is like, well, let's stop this. Let's stop seeing other people, or at least my end. And she's like: "Is this okay with you?" "Well, I would love to do it, but I'm okay not doing it". It's something that I prefer. And usually I talk about food. I would love to eat a lot of chocolate, but somebody tells me, you cannot eat chocolate. It's not that I'm going to go all crazy and there's so many other things I can do and we're having so much joy out of this that it's okay that I feel a little bit selfish just pushing for it. And then Jasmine was very: "Oh, but you don't have to, let's talk about it. It hurt, but it's okay". And it's like, no, no, let's do it. And I think one of the part of we were talking before that feeling forced to say "Yes, oh, no, I'm totally okay". I was doubling on I like you for many reasons, not mainly because we met in this setting or because we have this side of our relationship is I like you and I love you for many other things before that. And using this language will let me also say, but I still want it. Right? Versus saying: "Oh, it's totally okay, I don't want it". And lying also to myself, I think keeping that as something that I wanted at that time made it much easier to create the trust and to build up the reassurance for us to say: "Oh, now maybe is a good time to revisit that" rather than: "Oh, I don't want that again", holding it the same, that saying: "Oh, I want that". And suffering inside. I think it goes both ways.

F: Yeah. And yeah, exactly. You can be like: "Okay, this is not ideal, but this is what we have to do for now". Yeah. And knowing that things don't have to stay that way forever, I think that in this situation also because you knew that Jasmine wanted to be open to it and that's why she initially was like: Yeah", it's like you knew that she had the intention. You both had that intention. But the circumstances at that moment weren't the right ones for that. And you guys were both like: "Okay, it doesn't have to be right now. We can wait".

J: Yeah. And just setting those checkpoints to reevaluate, it's like: "Okay, if we're in the same city, then we both have access to the same scene, like, the same opportunities to date and feel secure and we're nearby, so it's equal". We talk about it a lot and it feels very comfortable to broach that subject and be like: "Okay, let's talk about it now. Even though maybe I'm still feeling insecure, we can talk about why I'm feeling insecure".

F: Yeah. And how did that reevaluation when you did move in together, which sounds like it was last summer, right?

J: Yeah, the end of last summer.

F: So it hasn't even been a year. And how has that process been like?

Felipe: From the perspective of reevaluating, we visited and reevaluated, and we decided that we're not dating other people separately. Right? Yeah.

J: As we explore meeting and dating other people together, and it's not completely off the table to date separately. We just haven't done it yet. It's still sort of in discussion of, like, maybe, but how would it fit into our lives? And we don't know yet.

F: Yeah. So you're still keeping your experiences together, but sounds like you might want things to be different. You do want to date people separately?

Felipe: I'm more curious and I find it super fun to flirt and seduce, and sometimes the opportunity happens when we're together, and sometimes it doesn't, and I have to limit that aspect, and that's totally okay.

J: It's still something that I think that I want, like in my head, I'm like: "Oh, yeah, that sounds super fun". I talk to my friends that are in open relationships that date separately, and I see it working in a lot of cases, and I'm like, that sounds really fun and sexy to go on a date and to come home and talk to your partner and to share this experience that I had, it was really fun, and I still don't know how to translate that into reality because it still scares me, even though I feel very secure and very reassured and I'm not threatened by the idea of it, I think. But then also, these conversations come up. Like, one of us is traveling, and we'll talk, and Felipe is asking like: "Oh, while I'm here and alone, could I browse this app and go on a date?" And my first response is always like: "Oh, no, maybe, I guess" and he's like: "Okay, no, that's a no. It's clearly a no. So don't worry. Maybe next time". And then I get off the phone, I think about it, and I'm like: "What am I actually afraid of?" I don't think I'm afraid of anything, but I have to listen to that first response of my body is still fear and uncertainty.

F: Yeah.

J: Still working through why I have these two parts in my head. One part thinks, yes, totally, we should do that. And the other part is like, what if we hurt each other? So I don't know. I'm still feeling that.

F: Yeah, no. And I think that you guys are also early in your relationship and also exploring. And it sounds like most of your experiences together have been positive. But I'm sure that there's already a lot of things to unpack with that. First, I think in your situation, need to feel good with that before taking extra steps and kind of going too fast. Right?

Felipe: Going back to Chile and talking with my best friends over there who are very vanilla, and I share aspects of my life, and I share with some of them some details of: "Hey, we're seeing other people" or "Hey, we are flirting" and immediately they go: "But will you let another guy f*** your girl?" immediately, like a very, very It's very possessive way of thinking and very threatened. I'm like: "No, I'm super confident. I think. It's not that I will let her. It's something that will bring joy to her, and I know she'll come back to me and we're together".

F: And you've also experienced that before, right? Because you had one relationship in which you guys did things separately.

Felipe: However, and very recently, three weeks ago, we went to this festival. At this moment, Jasmine is just, like, so happy, and I'm so happy for her being so happy. But also, as part of this, you're being so outgoing and in my head, flirtish. And I thought she was flirting with this guy, which at the end, I think you told me: "Oh, no, I was being very flirty because this girl was there", right? But from my perspective, I'm seeing her shining and being like, I've never seen her be but with me. And I thought it was towards this guy. Immediately my reaction was like: "I've never seen this happen". And I have an immediate reaction of threat. And then I think, well, that's the way I am constantly to everybody, right? And on one end, there is this sort of threat, but on the other end, oh, my God, how gorgeous she looks and how happy she's being by getting. Also in, being in the situation where I thought the guy was also flirting and I was just, this is amazing, right? But also, I have that first reaction of: "Oh! it's okay, it's okay". So I haven't got the opportunity to feel that way. Mostly because we've been flirting with girls, right? Or when Jasmine's alone and I totally have encouraged, like: Just go with it. I'm not there. Don't worry. You have my entire permission to whatever". Right?

F: Yeah, but only with girls.

J: Always with girls, which is okay with me. I'm bisexual. I'm very attracted to women. And part for me, being in a relationship with a man, I've only had monogamous relationships where, okay, sure, I could make out with a girl if she's cute and if he's there, but I couldn't ever look at other guys. I never thought about it.

F: So you did have a relationship before where you could make out with girls?

J: Yes. But in a very...

F: Your seven year relationship or a different?

J: Yeah, but it wouldn't have been able to go beyond that. He was very threatened by the thought of me being with anybody else. And so the couple of times he was kind of talking cool, like: "Oh, yeah, you can make out with girls as long as they're hot and as long as I'm there". But even the couple of times that that happened, it didn't ever go beyond just making out because he was so like: "But now you come back to me". It's very threatened by it. But something within me now I'm in a relationship where we could be open. We've talked about this, but I've never dated other men or gone on other dates with other men and never even thought about it. And it's something that even though I think, like: "Oh, yeah, okay, we're open. I'm fine with that". And I could look at other people and find them attractive. I mostly find myself attracted to other women and not other men, I think, because somewhere deep inside me, I think, like, oh, I have this man. I'm with this man, and I just don't even notice other men. And we have not really confronted, like, if I wanted to date other men, how would that look? How would that affect you and our relationship? That's something totally new.

Felipe: So the opportunity for me with women has been more evident. I'm also straight, and Jasmine hasn't explored or hasn't expressed that intention for dating or maybe kissing a little bit, but not much with other guys. And going back to those conversations in Chile with really vanilla friends is: "But would you let that happen?" And my answer is: "I don't know". Like: "Would you like it? Would you enjoy it?"I don't know if I would enjoy Jasmine dating other men, but I don't know it. Right? And I know that there's a part that is uncomfortable and is unknown, and, of course, with women makes it so much easier, but it is that part of it's only fair if this is something I'm interested in, for me, it should be for her. So this is a part of what we haven't got a lot of experience and I haven't got a lot of experience in this other relationship with a primary in San Francisco, we would do more, and we will tell each other: "Hey, this is somebody". We were definitely not official, it was secret. But we will get back together.

F: How was it secret?

Felipe: Because she was in this open marriage, but we didn't bring it up. It was kind of their agreement not to know. And then I was living in New York. This happened after I moved to New York. So I was going once a month to the West Coast, and of course, it was three weeks apart. And then we came back and tell each other what was going on. And it was not easy. Neither of us was. We decided not to tell us everything. It was a different sort of relationship.

F: You were not living together.

Felipe: Not living together. So different orders of magnitude of involvement.

F: But it was still not easy. And it was still not easy.

F: Yeah.

Felipe: Right.

F: Yeah. It's interesting because it sounds like you both are interested in the idea, but the practice of it sounds, like, difficult. And you are already exploring, and you already are getting so much from the experiences you are having. For Jasmine, I'm sure it's like exploring with women, it's probably something new for you as well, or, like, newish, like with that freedom for both of you sounds a little bit threatening the idea of dating separately. So it's like, why at this moment jump into that when it's like we're already getting so much? I don't know if there's any needs that you feel like are unfulfilled or that dating separately would fulfill.

J: Not for me. I feel like we have a lot of fun together, just the two of us. And then recently, I've had a few experiences of meeting new people and sharing experiences with them that were amazing and really fun and lovely. And I don't see that there's anything missing or lacking, like you said, that dating separately would bring right now. At this time. I also noticed that the longer that we've been together and the more that we're serious, like, we live together now. We're building this life, and I feel much more secure than I did in the beginning of when I was in the van, and we were separate, we were long distance, even coming into town and going to play parties, I'm like: "I think I just want to play with you". And people can watch and we can watch other people, but I don't necessarily want to interact with them or know how to interact with them, and I don't know how. Okay, we can flirt with people online, but if we meet up, I don't know how to do that, really. And that's evolving. The longer we're together, I feel more confident myself and more confident in us together and less shy, more curious about interacting with others and acting on, like: "Oh, I think they're cute, maybe we should invite them over" and, yeah, I feel like at this rate, I could see it evolving into, like: "Oh, maybe I can imagine how dating separately would look because six months ago, I couldn't imagine playing with someone else at a play party". But now that feels fine and fun and sexy and so next year, like, later this year or next year, I don't know, maybe I could imagine that.

Felipe: I don't need anything else either. I'm having lots of fun fulfilled. How do you say "goloso" in English when you want to eat more candy? Right? It's not that you need more candy,

F: Yeah, you just want to indulge. Felipe: Indulge, right.

F: Indulgent, I guess? I don't know. Or, like, you're craving something that you don't need.

Felipe: Yeah. I'm very risk prone, and I don't consider all the time the risks of going for something. And this applies to many aspects of my life that I always like: "But more is right there. We just go and get more". I want to indulge myself, but I indulge myself in so many aspects of my life that I don't need to. Right? And it's just this, this curiosity. And because of, I forget about the risks, right. I forget about the potential things that can go wrong. I usually jump in, into the, I want this, right, but it's not that I need. And I'm very happy. We've been having so much fun. Also, part of the context of things that are switching in our life is we met during pandemic, and it was impossible or very difficult to meet new people. And therefore, a lot of opportunities or perceived opportunities would happen within our friend group. And because we're so flirty and because everybody's so gorgeous and because sometimes we're all dipped in drugs and being extremely...

F: Dipped in drugs.

J: Dipped in drugs all around.

Felipe: Like soaked in drugs, and sometimes, and I'm like: "Yeah". And so also, I was sometimes crossing boundaries with friends, right. Because we didn't have the opportunity. In my head, this is riskless and it's not. Or I can deal with this risk, and Jasmine is less risk prone. And now in the last six months or last three months, we starting to meet other people and we evaluate why to do that risky thing with, I don't know, a couple of friends who are flirty or a single friend who's flirty, when we can direct that indulgence towards newcomers. So that is also shifting.

J: Yeah. It's a great point that I feel very conscious of flirting with friends because still newish to this community. I feel like I've known everybody now for a year or a year and a half. So we have some solid friendships that I'm conscious of I don't want to mess them up. I really like all my new friends. I feel like this community is amazing, and we have fun flirting, and we come home and we talk like: "Oh, this person's so cute. Maybe we should flirt with them. Should we invite them on a date?" And I'm like: "Yes. Oh, but wait, no, what if, I don't know. What if it doesn't go well and then we mess up the friendship or something?" So, yeah, like you said, now that things are opening back up from a pandemic perspective, we feel safe and comfortable meeting new people, and that leaves me feeling freer and less shy.

F: Yeah, that's great. Yeah. I'm happy that we're done with the harshest part of the pandemic and that you guys are able to explore in that way. And I want to hear about that exploration. But also, I'm curious, because, Felipe, you mentioned that you were, like, crossing boundaries with friends. Can you tell us more about that? Because I'm the type of person who loves a friends with benefits situation. So my impulse sometimes is like: "Oh, let me just make out with all my friends". But as you said, I've had to kind of take a step back and think a little bit more of the consequences of my actions, because I cannot just be going around making out with all my friends. Right? So can you tell us?

J: Even you want to.

F: Yeah, even though I might want to, you have to think a little bit about that, but at the same time, it's really great to hook up with friends. I don't know. So it's like a line that's interesting to walk.

Felipe: I've been doing a lot of this, especially using some magical powders, and that invites me to just talk things, right? And just verbalize things that I perceive. And one of them is: "Oh, I'm flirting with this person, or we are flirting with this person". And first there's a more flirty part, but then there's putting it in words. I've said recently to some of our friends: "I'm attracted to you, or we are attracted to you". Or I said: "We've been talking about you, and we love to make out with you. Are you flirting with us?" Right? And this has happened with people who are not flirting with us or they're flirting, but it's like: "Oh, yeah, I'm flirting with". Right? And immediately changes the tone of the dancing into the "mmm not that". Right? But also, it has happened with girlfriends of friends who either we know they're open or we don't know if they're open.

And sometimes in either situation, when they are open or when they're not open, they say like: "Oh, yeah, I also find you cute or the two of you attractive". And it's like seduce mode, but going from flirt to go get it. And sometimes it just go in and then, like: "mmm".

J: Start thinking about the consequence or the potential consequence of how that could affect the friendship or if it's the girlfriend of a friend, like, how it could affect the friendship with that guy.

F: Or the guy might be like, why are you guys trying to steal my girlfriend type of situation?

Felipe & J: Yeah!

F: And also what you were saying, I think it's important to verbalize and be like: "Oh, so I'm getting this vibe, how do you feel?" And all of that. But then if they are like: "No, I don't feel that way", then, yes, it kind of can create this moment, which is better than not having said anything and then trying something and then realizing then. So it's still the best approach. But, yeah, it can create these uncomfortable situations in which you don't know if you are overstepping boundaries, right? Especially because you guys are mostly playing with women.

J: We don't want to seem like we're coming in to steal someone's girlfriend.

Felipe: Yeah.

Felipe & J: Or being known as that couple.

Felipe: Well, I was the second of somebody of a couple in our group, like, four years ago or five years ago, I was the one dating somebody else's girlfriend. I was just a threatening guy because I was a guy who will date other people's girlfriends. And that changed, right? I put a step back, but now I think I'm slightly unleashed because we both enjoy flirting.

J: Yeah, it's led to a lot of good communication between us. And for me as well, I'm typically less direct and a lot more shy. I'm flirty, but I'm almost never the one that makes the first move, which is interesting in the aspect of being in a relationship where we are flirting with or pursuing women. Like, if I was in their shoes, I would want the woman in the relationship to be the one who's sort of making the contact and establishing trust and flirting and being more seductive. And I know that, but being in my shoes as the girlfriend, I'm so shy about it. And so I've kind of told Felipe, like: "Oh, you're more flirty than me. Yeah, I'm into her. You should flirt for both of us". And this has kind of backfired, especially among our friends, because they know that we're dating, but they don't see me making a move. And so they approached me later. They're like, I wanted to talk to you about, like: "Are you and Felipe open?" And I'm like: "Yeah. I mean, yeah, we're open. Like, we're exploring that". And they're like: "Oh". And you can kind of see this relaxation of their face. Like, relief. "Okay. Because he was flirting with me or he was being direct and saying, like, I want to flirt with you". "Can we flirt?" "And we didn't know if you were open". And I'm like: "Oh, s***". I need to be more aware. We as a couple, need to be more aware of this, but I need to be more upfront and direct and also flirting and also telling these women that I find you attractive. I would love to flirt with you. We'd love to take you out. Because if it's only coming from him, it could give this perception that he's.

F: The one driving it and you don't. want it.

J: That I'm not interested or that maybe I don't even know about it. I'm like, that's totally not the case. But I could see why people think that. So, yeah, recently, I think kind of everything has been coming together between me feeling more secure with us and feeling more confident and also being able to meet new people and explore outside of our friend group. I'm feeling like I can step into this role and be more flirty and more direct, and that's been really fun to explore.

F: Nice. Yeah. So why don't you tell me about that, about your recent exploration and experience, because you've kind of mentioned you had something in Chile. Yeah. Tell us a little bit about those experiences.

J: Yeah, well, the experience in Chile was with another couple that we met through an app. And it's really challenging to meet people in this community in Chile. Like, as Felipe mentioned, it's much more conservative, much more traditional. There's a smallish community on the Feeld App, which...

Felipe: There's twelve.

J: Yeah, there's like twelve people, mostly couples.

F: Are you serious?

J: Yeah.

F: It's only twelve people on Feeld.

Felipe: Maybe more.

F: Okay.

J: But maybe 30 at most. It's small. You can scroll through all of them in one day and you're like: "Oh, well, that was everybody in Santiago". And it's very hard to know who you're talking to. People don't post their faces because they don't want someone that they know to find them on the App accidentally. And you don't know who you're going to get. So we met this couple. We chat like: "Yeah, let's get drinks tonight". And they get there. I'm like: "Wow, they are so cute".

F: Oh, that's good. Where were they from?

Felipe: Like, we got the words in words of Jasmine: "We won the Feeld lottery".

J: Yeah. They're so attractive. They're really fun. They speak Spanish and English, which is great for me because my spanish is like, I can get by in a spanish conversation, but definitely not at the level of flirting on a date. I'm not there yet. I should probably take a course on that.

F: Master class. You should put it up, Felipe.

J: Yeah. So we had this date. We have drinks, we have some snacks, and we get to know them. And we're kind of all sharing our stories of parties that we've been to, and none of us made the first move, so nothing happened. However, there's a second part to that story that you can tell.

Felipe: This is right before heading on vacation to south of Chile, away from Santiago. And we fly back home on Sunday morning, and we're leaving to the States back on Monday. And we went on a date with them again at their house out of the city. Yeah. There's a gorgeous house in the middle of the mountains with gorgeous swimming pool. And then we were there flirting a lot. Flirting and having drinks a little bit. Both couples, each up to one side of a table. Then let's go to the pool. We go everywhere with kimonos. So we got everybody in kimonos. We got into the swimming pool, and then we went back to the living room and then massage started happening. And then let's go to the bedroom.

J: Yeah. I think we were facing the same issue of, we're here. We're in the situation. We all know this understanding of we would be down to have sex and to play and to flirt or to take the flirting to the next level, but none of us are doing it and it starts to get late and we're like, oh, no, it's not going to happen, at this point and then

Felipe: There was a big limitation that we couldn't kiss.

J: Yes. So a big difficulty of that date was that I had a cold sore. I could tell them like, hey, I have a cold sore. If you get them too. Sure. If we're all comfortable, we could kiss. But it's awkward in a play scene because then you have to be so conscious of everything else.

F: I used to get a lot of cold sore. Or, like, last year, for some reason, I started getting them. And it's so annoying. It made my life very difficult.

J: Yes. It's so awful. And even though almost everyone gets them it still feels just gross.

F: Yeah, there's still some taboo around that.

J: Self conscious to be like: "Oh, and now we're here for a sexy date". It's not even like we're just hanging out and having dinner. It's like "Now I have this". Finally, we surmounted this difficulty of, like: "How do we get from flirting to the actual?"

F: Yeah. Without playing, without kissing.

Felipe: Without kissing.

J: And so this girl, was like: "Oh, by the way, you mentioned that you used to be a massage therapist and you promised me a massage. I want that massage before you leave Chile". I was like: "Oh, great, this is my perfect. This is the intro. Perfect". So we go into the bedroom, and she just immediately was like, strips off all her clothes and lays on the bed, and she's like: "Okay, I'm ready". I'm like: "Okay, this girl knows what she wants, and so I'm giving her a massage". It's wonderful. And then I'm like: "Okay, my turn". Then they're giving me a massage. Everyone's getting undressed. They start making out. We start making out, but we can feel there's this separation still. And Felipe is like, they're probably wondering why we're not trying to kiss them. And I was like, I know, but I'm so self conscious. And he's like, let's just tell them. So he just pauses like: "Okay, guys, we want to tell you. There's this thing. She has a cold sore. We would love to make out with you, but this is why we're not". And immediately, the whole vibe was just so much more relaxed, right?

F: Everyone's like, oh, it's like the elephant in the room.

Felipe & J: Yeah.

J: I was so nervous...

Felipe: That this could backfire.

J: That they'd be like, I don't know what I expected, but, yeah

F: Gross, get out of my house.

J: Yeah. But instead, this girl is like: "Oh, no, that sucks. But don't worry, I get them, too. So does that mean we can make out?" And I'm like: Well, yes, you're not going to get it from me having it if you already have it, but it means that you can go down on your partner. And he's like: "No, that's not going to fly". And I'm like: "Of course, I understand". "That's why we're not doing".

F: Yeah. Just to give some context for people who might not be familiar. So having a cold sore is basically having herpes. But there's, like, two types of herpes. So there's, like, the oral one, which is like the one that you had, and the one that I've had. And then there's the genital one. Right. And there is some risk of transmission. Like, if you have the oral one and you have an active breakout and you go down on your partner, then there's a risk that they might get genital herpes, which is a lot more serious than just the mouth one. Also, for whoever is experiencing that, I've been taking L Lysine. I don't know if you know about this.

J: Same. And it's amazing.

F: Yeah. And that prevents it. So whoever has a herpes, just take L Lysine every day, and then that prevents it. And that helps anyway.

J: So, yeah, I tell this girl, and then she's also like: "Oh, but it's kind of fun and kind of sexy that we can't kiss. I mean, it's a bummer. I really want to kiss you. But now it's kind of like this game". We want it and we can't have it. And it added this unexpected sexiness to it where we're all in the same bed. We're all in the same bed. We're playing, they're playing, and her and I are in the middle, and we're right next to each other. Our faces are like, our noses are touching. I'm like, but we can't kiss. And it ended up being this really hot cheese. I was like: "Wow, this is totally unexpected". Not how I thought the night was going to go.

F: Yeah, that's awesome.

J: Yeah. And it reminded me that it doesn't have to be this huge stigma and taboo and that you can get unsurprising answer if you're just open about it.

F: Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of playing that can be done. So that's awesome that you were able to turn things around. So did you guys end up having sex with this couple?

J: The two of us had sex, and the two of them had sex all next to each other in front of each other. We didn't interact with them.

Felipe: There were hands.

J: There were hands going...

Felipe: That's true.

J: People interacted with me. I couldn't interact so much with them. Yeah. And I think it also made it so we had this future date to look forward to like: "Oh, and next time you come back to Chile...

Felipe: You return our kimonos.

F: Oh, they kept the kimono?

Felipe: They kept, accidentally one kimono, which is great.

F: Okay, perfect excuse.

Felipe: Yeah.

J: And also, hopefully neither one of us has a cold sore, and then we get to kiss next time. This tease of like, oh, and next time we get to do that.

F: Yeah. That's amazing. Very last question. It can be sure. This is something that I ask every guest of the podcast. What would you tell to a polycurious person?

J: My advice would just be to keep the communication super open and not hide either side of it. Like you were saying before, if you want something, if you want to be open, you want to date other people, to share that and not hide that desire and then try it. But then if you have a reaction to it and you're scared or you're jealous, to be open about that too, and just trust that your relationship is strong and you can talk your way through it.

F: Amazing. How about you, Felipe?

Felipe: I think the aspect of this is not for everybody. And the only way for you to know if you and your other are into this is to talking and trying. And going back to my chilean friends in their head is: "Oh, this is the dreams". You can do it too. Right? "But how can I do it?" Just tell your partner: "Hey, I'm curious. I would love to try something else". And worst case scenario, and you can use empathy to say, this is not because there's something lacking between us, it's not because something is going wrong. It's not that because we need to fix our relationship. This is something I'm interested. And maybe you'll bump into surprise that your girlfriend or significant other feels the same. And they have this. Me too. And I didn't want to bring it up because of. So there's the first part of it's not for everybody, but just asking is to figure it out if it's for you and your partner and then having this reassurance of bringing up, like, we're going now to this. Right. But that doesn't mean that it has to, like, our current plan is to. We're in the car to this party, but if we don't like it, or if you don't like it and I like it, you can tell me and we'll leave. Right? Or if you don't want something, even if I want it, we're not going to do it. Right? And setting up that saying, I don't want this. At any moment. We talk about consent. Usually we think about people that we don't know or people that we're making a first move. It also works in the relationship. Right? Would you like tea? No, I don't want tea. Perfect. We're not ordering tea. Yeah. It could be in a marriage, right. It's not just on the first date or in the first.

F: Yeah, I love that. I actually read in a book whose author I interviewed for the podcast, this phrase, like: "Go as fast as the slowest person". And I think that when in primary type of relationships, when exploring those worlds, I think it's great to remember that. Okay. If it feels too fast for one person, the other one can slow down a little bit. Yeah. Well, amazing. I love this conversation. Thank you so much for being on the podcast.

J: Yeah, this was really fun. We're happy to be here.