Seth: You're free to do something. You schedule time with people. When I'm free to do something, I schedule time mostly with myself.

Ana: For us, I would say it hasn't been balanced when it comes to who actually goes outside of our relationship, our connection, and actually plays or meets people.

Alejandro: I would recommend that you understand that that lack of balance is always going to be there and to continue moving forward.

Tarynn: I think that I was just expecting him to do what I was doing. Like, we would go to parties and I would be like, why isn't he as outgoing as me?

S: I can't say for a certain if I won't catch feelings for someone. So I understand where the fear comes from, but at the same time, it was also very frustrating because I was being held back from doing what I wanted because you had those feelings of jealousy or fear.

Fernanda: Hi everyone. This is Polycurious. I am Fernanda, your host, and today I have a special episode for you. One of the things that I have noticed in interviewing people for the podcast is that one of the main challenges they experience, especially when they start opening up, is that they realize that they actually have two different ideas of what that actually means. So today we're listening back to some episodes from our first season that explored this topic. Hopefully, if you're struggling with having different desires from those of your partner, you'll find some things here that really resonate with you.

And if there's a particular voice you hear today that you want to hear more of, you can just go to the show notes where you will find all the episodes we mentioned.

So I'm starting off with a clip from my interview with Dr. Zhana. She's a sexuality and relationship scientist, writer, and consultant, and her work is all about finding the type of relationship, whether that's monogamous or non-monogamous, that works for you and the type of person that you are.

Dr. Zhana: We really are different in the needs that we have, which is why I highly recommend to people to have that conversation from the beginning. Early on, before things get very serious, I think people should have the conversation of the kinds of relationship, in terms of monogamy or non-monogamy, they're going to want in the near future, and what they expect will happen in the more distant future if things are still going well right between us. And even if they don't want the same thing, are they going to be okay with each person having what they need? Because very often people, when they open up, they think it has to be the same, and it really doesn't.

The ideal scenario is where every person gets what they need from that relationship and are hopefully okay with what their partner needs, even if it's something different. And if you're not on the same page, then there are no ideal solutions. There are four options, pretty much: You break up and go your separate ways and find someone who wants something closer to yours, okay with what you want; You restrict your, you repress your desires for what you want so that you get your partner what they want. Your partner represses their desires so that they can get you what you want. Or you both repress parts of your desires to meet halfway.

Fernanda: As Dr. Zhana notes, it is rare to find someone who's exactly on the same page as you are. You might end up falling in love with someone who has a completely different ideal relationship, and that often creates conflict in a lot of couples.

And those four options that she mentioned are all completely valid. But obviously breaking up, it's a difficult choice. And when only one partner is making compromises, it often feels unbalanced. So a lot of people choose instead to meet halfway, to compromise a little bit on both sides, although that is not always easy.

The next clip I am going to play is from my interview with S & J. In their case, they enter non-monogamy, having experiences together. But at some point, S realized that she wanted to meet people separately, so they both started dating people separately. But J felt pretty threatened around the idea of S being romantic with other people. He would get really jealous, and that made dating very difficult for S. Here is us talking about her experience.

S: I also remember it being really frustrating for me when I would keep reassuring you, I am not going to leave you for somebody else.

J: I was so nervous.

S: I'm really happy with you. I'm just slutty. I'm just like hooking up with other people, whatever.

J: And I did, too.

S: Yeah, right. We were both doing the same thing, but you just always had those nerves. I mean, to be fair, it is totally plausible for, let's say, me to catch feelings for somebody else. That is a possibility. I'm not saying that it's totally not, but it's always something that's going to be spoken about.

I can say for certain that I will not leave you, but, you know, I can't say for certain if I won't catch feelings for someone, you know, so I understand where the fear comes from. But at the same time, it was also very frustrating because I was being held back from doing what I wanted because you had those feelings of jealousy or fear, whatever they were.

And I remember there was this one time that kind of changed everything, where we sat down and we made a list. Because I remember every single time we would try speaking about this, we would just be arguing so much, just yelling over each other: "I want this". "No, I want that". "You want that". We weren't getting anywhere because a conversation just turned into an argument.

J: We weren't addressing the issue. She was saying: "I want something", and I was saying: "Okay, but I want something else". That's not me answering her, that's me saying something else that I want. And her comment was left in the wind.

S: Right.

J: It wasn't useful.

S: We decided to sit down and make a list of, I remember I wrote down all of my desires of what I wanted in my open relationship, and then I asked you to do the same. And then we also made another list of our hard noes because actually a friend in the poly community told me this. He gave me this advice. He said, instead of saying what you want to do with someone else, because that list can go on and on forever. Like, yes to blow jobs, yes to, I don't know, whatever, but that list can go on forever. So it's really important to discuss the hard noes. Let's say, like

J: Condoms.

S: Condoms, right? Like, there always needs to be a condom.

Fernanda: No condoms. No. Yes, condoms. Yes, condoms.

S: Right. So that's a good hard line right there. So that was an important part. What else was on that list? Right. So there were the desires, and then there were the more realistic parts where the compromises of, like, what would we be okay with?

And, you know, with each desire, we went through each one and tried to make it possible, as most know. So let's say I wanted the ability to see whoever I wanted alone. And J would, let's say, um, okay, that's fine, but I don't know. We once tried this thing where it was like, only three people a month or something. We tried to limit the number or just to give it some sort of structure.

Fernanda: I love this little exercise S & J mentioned of writing down desires and figuring out where you can adjust to meet your partner. It probably won't be perfect, but remember that it is a process, and with time, you'll find that you can get closer and closer to meeting those desires. But even reaching that initial compromise is easier said than done.

Next, I'm going to play a clip from our conversation with Tarynn. Tarynn is a psychotherapist, coach, and consultant who specializes in alternative lifestyles and sexualities. And in our conversation, she shared her and her husband Abe were having a difficult time compromising for one another. Here's Tarynn.

Tarynn: I started dating this guy, and I was really into him. And at the time, this was really in the beginning stages. So I didn't really have as much knowledge about non-monogamy or polyamory. I wasn't really being so considerate of Abe. I was really just kind of like a kid in the candy store and really just excited and selfish. And that relationship really kind of messed up our dynamic a lot. He wanted me to stop seeing this person. We started to continue therapy, and we were at an impasse a lot because he was feeling really threatened, which is something that happens a lot. And we were fighting a lot. And ultimately, we actually decided to separate.

And it was more than just the non-monogamy. I was kind of, like, going through my own journey, where I think that for the majority of my life, I was kind of just focused on doing the right thing. And making my family proud and going with the notions about what they expected of me. That I sort of started to feel like I don't even know who I am. And I felt like I really needed time by myself. I went by myself to Burning Man. We were separated for about six months. And at Burning Man, as people typically do, they learn a lot about themselves. And I just really missed Abe and realized that it wasn't just that he wasn't accepting me for who I was as I was going through these changes, but I wasn't accepting him for who he was, as he wasn't going through these changes.

Like, I had this expectation that he should be on the same page as me, that he should be asking similar questions to me, that he should feel uncomfortable being complacent. And at Burning Man, I kind of realized that I needed to start accepting him for who he was. And then we got back together after Burning Man.

Mariah: That's amazing, because I feel like usually when people go to Burning Man, it's just like, forget my life before I'm going to start all over.

Tarynn: Well, we also have a child, and we have this really special love for each other. It's like we are each other's family. There's just so much more to it. And so at that point, we started to really accept the relationship for what it is. And to kind of get out of this construct of what marriage is supposed to be.

Mariah: So I want to get into that. A little bit more. But I guess I want to understand, too. What was it that shifted so you understood that you needed to kind of consider him more, but what did that actually look like?

Tarynn: I think that I was just expecting him to do what I was doing. We would go to parties, and I would be like: "Why isn't he as outgoing as me? He's not this partner in crime". I think I was really worried about how other people were perceiving us. But that's all bullshit. What we have is really strong and really real. And I just started to take that at face value. And to also just be okay with being different. And I guess I also just explained to him. And I think over the years, he realized this about me. Is that I am like a constant, evolving human being.

If he wanted to stay with me, he would have to accept that I don't want to be held back from my growth. And my growth doesn't have to threaten our relationship.

Fernanda: You have another partner that you've been seeing for over a year now, right?

Tarynn: Yeah. We have a really serious relationship. And Abe is my nesting partner. We have a child together. We pay bills together. We kind of, like, strategize our lives together. My partner is, we'll call him Jay. He is a very serious relationship. There's no hierarchical thought about that. Like, it's as significant of a relationship.

Mariah: How does Abe feel about that?

Tarynn: Abe actually feels great about it. Jay is at our house all the time. They have become very friendly. Everything's really on the table out in the open. We'll host dinner parties and things like that. And Jay is there. They will text about stocks. It took a little bit to get there. But everyone's really connected. And everyone's really accepting about what the relationship is. I really, really push for radical honesty and active communication at all times.

And so very early on, expressed to Jay what it was that I needed, how it was that I needed him to communicate with me. And same thing with Abe. And so we were kind of, like, all on the same page about the way we communicated. We would have difficult and awkward conversations just all out on the table. I think it's just about kind of like taking your ego out of it. And just being really real. And supplying a comfortable environment. So that everyone feels safe. Talking about all different kinds of things. Maybe I got lucky in the specific relationship dynamic. But they both Abe and Jay root for each other.

Fernanda: I love Tarynn's story, because it is an example of how things really change when you accept your partner for who they are and reach compromises. They went from her husband being really uncomfortable with her having another partner. To reaching a really comfortable poly kitchen table dynamic.

Another example is my relationship with Seth, as you might already know, even though we are open and I date other people, he hasn't so far been interested in dating himself. Ever since we met I told him I wanted to be non-monogamous. And even though at that point, he probably would have preferred if we were monogamous, what we did was to find a middle ground where we could both get a little bit of what we wanted.

So what we decided first is that I could go to play parties once a month. I was sacrificing dating other people, and he was sacrificing his ideal monogamous relationship. But after a while, when we became comfortable with that, we moved on to me being able to meet up with friends I was sexual with, but only people that he didn't know. And once we felt comfortable with that, we moved on to the next thing and the next thing, and now I get to date whoever I want, and he's totally okay with it. And in fact, he actually enjoys it because it allows him to have some time on his own, which is something very important for him.

The point is, relationships do change, and sometimes the sacrifices you make are just temporary. But of course, you have to have conversations around that. Like, for me, I knew it was important to have a relationship that allowed me to have the freedom to connect with other people. And even though I couldn't do it in the way that I wanted it at the time, we knew that that was the goal, and we both just work slowly towards that point. And you might be wondering why, even though we're open, he's still choosing not to act on that freedom.

So next, I am playing a clip from our episode where he answers this question for us.

Seth: I guess for me, it's not that I'm not open to being open. I'm not saying I'm not going to be, but I am not necessarily needing that or seeking that out. I think I get a lot from our relationship. It gives me what I need in terms of love and affection and sexual connection and that kind of energy. And when I have the opportunity, if you're going out, I would rather just spend that on me or doing things that I am looking forward to do.

I don't know. For me, there's something so recharging about being alone for a time. It's not something I want to do forever, but it's just like I need that. Work is very social. Like, I'm in meetings constantly, and we have our great time together. And I love living with you and sharing that life, but I also need that time I actually I am recharging my batteries when it's just me and I'm not thinking about anybody else being around me.

Fernanda: Yeah, and we've talked about that, how for me recharging my batteries, I mean, sometimes it's also being on my own, which is something that I don't get to do as often because you are often home.

Seth: I've claimed my land.

Fernanda: Well, you're going to Miami this weekend.

Seth: Yeah. You make use of it.

Fernanda: Exactly. No, but I already booked myself this whole weekend to be with people because that's kind of my nature.

Seth: When you're free to do something, you schedule time with people. When I'm free to do something, I schedule time mostly with myself, also going out with my buddies or whatever, but not necessarily if I were to pursue another relationship or want to meet somebody else, yeah, that would be fun. And I think there's a lot of reward in that connection that can happen as a result of that. A lot of reward. That first time connection or the first sexual encounter, all of that is incredibly energizing and rewarding.

I'm not saying I don't enjoy that, and I very much do, but for me, that's a lot of work to get to that point. And there's a lot of, I'm very empathetic person, and I'm always paying attention to what people are thinking and how they're thinking about me. And a lot of it is unhealthy, too, or not like something that I would choose to feel, but I do, and I pay attention to these things, and I pay attention to people's perception of me and how they're feeling, and I'm wanting to make people comfortable. And so it's a lot of energy for me. And right now in my life, I'm really happy with things. I really feel like I've honestly found a great balance.

Fernanda: So you just heard an example of how people have different needs, and it is okay for only one partner to be open and for the other person to remain closed. But in cases where both partners do want to be open, that still doesn't mean that they are going to be open in the same way. A challenge that many guests have shared is dealing with some imbalance in terms of how much they engage with other people.

Most often than not, there is one person that, for whatever reason, is going to go out more or has more partners or engages more deeply. And I think that it is important to accept that everyone's different and let go of that competitiveness of: "Oh, you've gone on one more date than I have" or whatever it is that you are dealing with.

So next you'll hear from Ana and Dustin, a couple who was able to do just that. So why don't you tell me about some of those challenges that you've encountered?

Ana: Yeah, tell us, what are those challenges? I'm like, it's been smooth sailing over here.

Dustin: Well, there is, again, generalizations on male things, but there is a male fantasy of: "Oh, yeah, I want to be an open relationship because then I get to have my cake needed, too. I can have a great primary relationship and then go sow my royal oats in every which way I want to". And one of the very interesting things that shouldn't come as a shock, if you think about it for 2 seconds, is that it's going to be easier for a cute girl to get an extra partner than it is for a guy to get an extra partner.

And so that's something that I've had to kind of navigate where it's like wooing someone is hard enough already when you're on Tinder or something. Women get a lot of matches. Men don't get as many. And then they have to kind of be up there and putting in the effort to try to get that match and get that date and get that connection. And so it became very apparent early on that it was going to be more work for me to get. It's like, already wooing a girl is hard enough, but then it's like: "Oh, and by the way, you're going to be my side chick".

Ana: That's not what it is.

Dustin: That's not how we're going to present it, but that idea.

Ana: That's how someone can hear about.

Dustin: Like: "What? You want to be in a relationship with me, but you already have a relationship". And so that is something that has been harder to navigate. And now, in aggregate, over the years, I think you have had more relationships outside our couple than I have.

Ana: Yeah, I mean, it depends on the couple. It depends on the two people involved. For us, I would say it hasn't been balanced when it comes to who actually goes outside of our relationship or connection and actually plays or meets people and connects in that way.

I feel like, for example, with Dustin, he's more interested in more of casual interactions, I would say, whereas I like full on other relationships. I like to have someone that I can connect with, someone that I go to the movies with and have ice cream with. And I like to build trust. I like to have the communication. And that was something that was kind of, I would say one of the hiccups like you said at the beginning, was understanding that we both are wanting different things from being in a poly secondary relationship. So that has been an interesting thing. And my relationships are longer.

I'll date someone for three years or two years, but then I'm not necessarily out dating a lot. And I feel like, Dustin, he hasn't tested me so much in that way. Like, I haven't had the experience of him fully dating someone. At one point, he went on a date with someone and he comes back and I was like: "Babe, how was was it?" I was so happy that he was out there connecting with somebody and having a full on date because I had already had a lover for a while. And he comes back and I think he might have told her: "I don't necessarily want to whine and dine you because I have a wife at home". And I looked at him and I was like: "That line is not going to work".

Dustin: "That is not a good line, Dustin".

Ana: No, that's not going to work. You definitely are not going to see her again.

Dustin: Did I say that? I don't remember.

Ana: Why do I feel like you said that? I mean, maybe you didn't.

Dustin: No, I probably did. Lessons learned early on.

Ana: Because he's still trying to navigate how to be in a polyamorous relationship where he's able to go out and explore and just not wanting to necessarily invest so much of himself. For me specifically, it doesn't happen every so often, but when it does happen, it's usually something that will last a longer time. This is something that I feel I like about the way that we interact.

If I've already have established intimacy with someone, there isn't a like: "You have to tell me every time you see them, every time that you connect with them in that way". I'll just be like: "Oh, I'm going to go see this person". And he's like: "Okay". I'll be like: "I'll be back by this time, or I'll call you if suddenly I'm staying later".

So he's been very patient with me because I feel like he hasn't really tested me in a way where it's like: "I actually would prefer you stay home tonight because I don't feel comfortable with it".

Dustin: Or you've been on, like, three dates this week.

Ana: Or: "You've gone on three dates this week"

Dustin: "Can I get a date?"

Ana: "Can I get a date?" Like, we haven't had situations. Neither of us push it to that level, and we're really good at knowing where we're both at. Like, acknowledging and reading our body language and our communication is very clear.

Fernanda: I hope that Ana and Dustin showed you an example of how it is okay for there to be a difference in how deep you engage with non-monogamy. I especially love hearing from men like Dustin or my partner said, who are okay with their female partners being more open. And don't let that fact make them feel insecure, because, sadly, in our society, the dominant narrative is that the man is the one who wants to be open. And women are often shamed for their desires. And as Dustin notes, sometimes, although not always, men have more difficulty finding women to date.

Next you'll hear from Alejandro and Ruth, who are another couple who experienced this imbalance.

Ruth: Like, at the beginning, it was like there were some guys I had vibes with, and as soon as I told them that I was opening it up, they'd be like: "Great, let's f***". And he had to spend a lot more time, especially because we weren't in a community of people that understood this. And also, both of our types are like girls next door.

Alejandro: And also, this is back then when open relationships were not as mainstream as I think they are these days.

Ruth: Yeah. So he would come home super frustrated because he'd be like: "I was talking with a woman, and then as soon as I told her, she was like, I don't believe you". I think that's changed a little bit also, because now we're in this community of people who know us. And five years ago, I'd wake up to text from people being like: "I saw your husband or I saw your fiance, and he was making out with another woman". And I'd be like: "We're open. Thanks". Now everybody knows we're open. We're always open to answering questions. And it's gotten to the point where a lot of women really trust Alejandro, and they know me.

And so we have this openness that allows women to hook up with him and know that he treats women with respect. But, I mean, he had to earn that. He would come home and he'd be so frustrated, and he'd be like: "I got so angry" and I'd be like: Yeah. I mean, if you approach women as this transactional, like, I am trying to find a partner to have sex with because I'm jealous that my partner is getting to have sex with men" you're not going to get anywhere. It's not sexy or awesome. You have to just feel this abundant. Like: "She can say no and it doesn't matter, and that's her prerogative". And there'll be other women. And so it took a really long time to get through that part. And meanwhile, I was having a grand all time hooking up with men.

Alejandro: As you're going in open relationship, in order to cope with this kind of lack of balance between genders from women to men, as a man, I would recommend that you understand that that lack of balance is always going to be there and to continue moving forward, approaching women with joy and from a place of abundance and from a place of legitimately being happy about the fact that you have this huge privilege in a relationship that most men in the world don't have, which is you can go flirt with a woman, you can go be sexy with her, you could go all the way and have sex with her.

And the fact that you are just trying and most probably 90% of the time failing, but then 10% of the time finding something that is way better than what most men have, because that's a huge privilege. It's not a right.

Fernanda: Okay, guys, I hope that you enjoyed today's episode and that it made you feel more comfortable where you're at, even if it is a totally different place than your partners. I want to go back to what Dr. Zhana said at the beginning. Figure out what it is that works for you, depending on your personality.

Then figure out where you might compromise or where your partner might compromise to meet those desires and trust that if you are open and communicative, things might change over time and you might find a point where you are both comfortable where you're at. But there is also the reality that you might not be able to reach that point. And then you have to decide: "Do I actually want to make this sacrifice for this person?" Or "Is this something that is really important to me and that I'm not willing to let go of?" Just make sure to stand up for your needs and your desires, but also be willing to compromise for whatever your partner might need or desire if you feel like they are worth that effort. That's it for today's episode. Please let me know what you thought about it if you like me to create more similar content. If you found it useful, please share it with a friend, a lover, or even a family member.