Carol: We figured out how to separate. You know, my brain says, this is okay, but my heart is just having some feels over this. We came up with the expression for us using the word "wonkies". Like, if I'm feeling wonkies about something, it means, okay. I'm having an emotional reaction to this, but intellectually, I know this is fine.

Fernanda: Hi, everyone. I am Fernanda, and this is Polycurious. Today, my wonderful co-host, Mariah and I chat with Carol and David, who have been in a polyamorous relationship for about eight years. So, as you can imagine, they have learned a lot in their journey and also had a lot of fun experiences. And in this conversation, we go back to the beginning of their relationship. We chat about their boundaries and agreements and how they evolved from a three page document to simply having to communicate and check in with one another. They share some of the difficulties that they experienced as they navigated having more than one partner.

We talk about an accidental breach of trust that happened because of a miscommunication early in their relationship and about how that experience taught them to set clear expectations. And last but not least, we chat about all of the reasons why being polyamorous adds to their relationship. This is one of those episodes where you can actually see in real life the evolution and growth that non-monogamy brings, no matter your relationship dynamic.

I think you will enjoy this conversation, but I think it will especially resonate with people who have multiple serious partners. Here's our interview with Carol and David.

F: Hi, Carol and David. We're super excited to have you tonight. As many of our guests, you are also part of the community and always good people to be around. So I'm excited to get to know you better.

C: Thanks. Excited to be here.

David: Yeah.

F: If you'd like to tell us a little bit about yourselves.

C & D: Sure.

C: I'll start. I'm Carol. I'm 52 years old. Had to think about that for a second. And I've been married to David for... we've been together since 2014 and married since 2017. And I'm a TV producer and grew up in New York and still live in New York.

F: Yeah. And just in case someone listens to this, in a few years, it's 2022. So that's how many years of marriage?

C: Together?

D: Well, that's five years.

C: Eight years, married, almost five years.

F: Nice.

D: And I'm David. I'm a real estate agent around here. And I'm 50. I did not grow up in New York. I grew up in Maryland, but was born in Israel. And here I am in Bushwick like everyone else.

Mariah: I didn't know that you were born in Israel. That's so interesting.

D: Yeah, I was born in Haifa.

M: Wow.

D: Yeah. So interesting story there. The reason why I ended up in the US is because the 73 war broke out and ended up in bomb shelter.

M: Whoa.

D: Yeah. And my mom after that was like "Yeah, I'm not staying here, so I'm going back to the US". And it was like, to my dad: "You can either come with me or stay here". So they chose to come, I was like two. Really.

M: Oh my gosh.

C: Crazy.

F: Have you been back to Israel?

D: Yeah, like ten times now. Yeah, nine or ten times.

M: Amazing.

F: Yeah, and before you guys met, what was your experience with non-monogamy? Or when did you start thinking that that might be something that you might be interested in or even learn about it? Because also, I guess when you guys were growing up, that wasn't even like something that was in the media or you guys probably didn't even know the name of it or that existed.

C: Not at all.

D: So the way my journey started is I was actually married before, so white picket fence, house in the burbs, the whole

C: Monogamous

D: Monogamus way of being. And then when my first marriage fell apart, I had some very dear friends of mine who are still in the community. I've known them now for over 25 years. I was just having a beer with my friend. He was over. We had this joke band and we would play stupid songs, and I was like: "How do you guys keep it together?" Because they were high school sweethearts. And he was like: "Well, let me tell you something".

And I was the first person in the Muggle world that they came out and said, well, they opened up their marriage about two years before and it was wonderful. And it's Burning Man community and the King community and Poly community, all these communities that they have found. I was: "Huh, okay, well, I know how long term monogamy works, and it doesn't really work that well for me. Let's try this". And when I actually entered the community, I've actually never had a one night stand. I'm poly, but I've never had one night stand. Doesn't do anything for me. And I also realized that I was not ready for a relationship that could have that escalator.

C: Wait, did you say in there already that this was after your divorce?

D: This was after my divorce, right.

F: Yeah. I was going to ask if you entered with your wife.

D: It never really kind of crossed my mind until my friend told me about this. I was like: "Okay, well, this is interesting. Maybe this is something worth exploring, at least.

M: I'm actually curious if you don't mind sharing. What was it that broke you guys up? Was it because of the monogamous type of traditional relationship and something that didn't resonate with you two as a couple?

D: I don't want to get too much into it, but we do have a child together and there was an amazing amount of postpartum depression.

C: But other factors that had nothing to do with monogamy or non-monogamy.

D: Yeah, exactly. But it definitely was a factor in the sense that there was a restlessness that I felt, and we had been together almost eleven years when we got divorced, and that restlessness had been there for years. So anyway, I digress. Yeah.

So I was introduced to all of this and I realized that while I was never into the bar scene and like the one night stand thing, I realized that there was a lot of healing that I needed to do and that I was not available for anything past a relationship that had no expectations of going any further than companionship. And at that point, and I found that when I came out of my divorce and started dating again, doing the whole "match.com" thing, I had to end things a lot of times because there was that expectation like: "Where's this going?" I was like: "Look, I've told you from the get go, this is not where I'm at right now, and it's going to be years before I get anywhere near that". So when I was introduced to the poly community, I was like: "There's a solution. I'm only going to date people that have primary partners". And that's what I did for years. I only dated people that had primary partners, so that was my introduction to the whole poly community.

F: And how would you meet those people out at parties or when you were like, your friend told you? What was the first step to get into the community?

D: Well, so there was a poly get together called Polycocktails, and that's where my first introduction to it, and pretty much, I'd say 90% of the people I ended up dating I met through there in the early days. And that was, like I said a decade ago.

M: Are they still around?

D: Some of them are, in fact, actually I went to a festival down in Florida. Carol was off on a shoot, and this is someone that we both know for a long time. I dated her for like three years, but she lives down in Florida, so she came to the festival with me. And this is someone that I've known for eleven years now.

F: And this was this year?

D: Yeah, that was this year. Yeah.

F: Awesome.

D: Yeah. There's plenty of people that, you know, still in contact with.

F: Yeah. I think maybe Mariah was asking, like, if the Polycocktails event is still around.

D: No, it's kind of fizzled out. I think it fizzled out, like, right before the pandemic, but it might be revised. Happen again.

F: Yeah. Because I do get emails from people asking me like: "Oh, how do I get into the community?" Or "What's a good play party?" And I'm like: "Oh, I'm disconnected a bit". There was some stuff before the pandemic, but who knows if they're still around. I feel the same way. Yeah.

D: Right.

M: It seems like it's a lot more intimate settings now of, like, very intentional, very small gatherings.

C: Yeah, I think so. And I think also while people are still being a little COVID cautious.

M: Yeah, that's a factor, definitely. So how about you?

C: So I also had never considered. I did have one boyfriend at one point before David, we briefly talked about it, there was some infidelity by both of us when we got back together. And we thought briefly: "Well, could an open relationship be an option?" We didn't know anyone who had done it. And I think I did a little bit of online research, but didn't find anything that seemed useful. So then we never attempted it. Broke up shortly after. But for me, when I got really active in the Burner community, the Burning Man community, in around 2014, I was already 44 at that point, but I started just meeting people who I'd be at a cocktail thing, and: "Oh, yeah, my husband's there with his girlfriend". And my mind was blown, actually.

I remember the first time I even heard about poly it was at just some party, chatting with someone, waiting online for the bathroom, like: "Oh, how do you know the host?" "Oh, through the poly community". And I think I said: "What's that?" And she said: "Well, ethical, non-monalgamy". And I remember thinking at the time: "You need a community for that?" Oh, how much I've learned since then. But at the time, I really didn't know. And at the time, my first thought was: "Oh, that's interesting, but that's not something I could do".

But then more and more as I was meeting people who were doing it, it just became a little more normal. And I thought: "Wow, this is really something". And was chatting with some guy on some dating app. It wasn't in his profile, but quickly after we were chatting, he said: "By the way, I am engaged. I'm in a serious relationship". And my first thought was: "Well, okay, that's not for me. But, you know, what? You seem like such a cool person. Let's have a drink anyway". And we met for a drink. I think it was the first time I really talked in depth with someone about their open relationship. And the way he talked about his fiance was so loving and open and honest that I thought: Wow, maybe there is something to this. I see this love that they have for each other, and it's really beautiful". But again, my mind was blown. I was like: "Okay, so she knows that you're on a date with someone tonight". And he said: "Yeah, she's on her own date. It's totally fine". So we wound up dating for a few months after that and have stayed friends since then.

But then, as that year went on, then I started dating someone, actually, yeah, someone else who I'm still friends with, who we saw at a party on Saturday. Someone who was married, but I think I met his wife around the same time. It still felt a little weird. One time, we were at a festival together, and this guy, I was there with him, his wife, and his wife's boyfriend. And the guy said to me: "Hey, oh, well, why don't we go off and do our own thing?" In the back of my mind, I was like: "Is that really okay? Is that actually okay with his wife?" Of course. Knowing that she's fully on board with this, it just took a while for my brain to kind of catch up with this.

It's like learning a new language. You're retooling. At least for me, I felt like I was retooling everything that I had ever learned. So after a while, I guess I was poly single for, I don't know, less than a year or so. Had a fun little playa of romance at Burning Man that year, as you do, as one does. But that kind of put the spark in my head to think: "You know what? I think I'm ready for a serious boyfriend again.

I think I'd like a boyfriend, but I think I'd like to try something in a serious poly context. Yeah, I think this is something that I want". I was actually working with a life coach at the time, and she said: "Well, okay, if this is what you want, kind of on one hand, put it out there, manifest it, but also practically, who are people that you can ask for introductions to this type of person?" And so one person that I reached out to was someone that I really only knew in passing, but she's very active in the poly community, and I asked her: "Hey, is there anyone that you could introduce me to?" She said: "Okay, yeah, let me think about it". Then happened to go to Polycocktails that night. He was there. David was there with this other person. And then she wrote to me. This woman wrote to me the next day and said: "Hey, what do you think about David? You met in passing last night? He and I used to date. He's a wonderful person. What do you think?" I was like: "Sure".

D: But this is the fun part of this because then she emailed me and it was like: "Hey, remember a Carol from last night? She thinks you're really cute. What do you think?"

F: She was like a matchmaker.

D: Yeah, exactly.

M: That's so cute.

D: And, boy, did she match well!

C: Yeah, so then she matched us. We both said: "Okay, yeah", he wrote to me. And actually we realized, I know this is a little "woo woo", we realized months later, I went back: "What was our first message anyway?" Scrolling through my messages. His first message to me was that year on 11-11 at 11:11 a.m.

M: Oh, my God! Was that planned?

D: No.

C: Which is pretty amazing. But actually, funny side note, I think months before, I was dating this first friend of yours, and this friend said: "Oh, you should meet Carol".

D: This is so funny, so the couple that I told you introduced me to this, actually, he dated Carol for a little bit.

F: Oh, I see. And kept telling me, like: "You got to meet her". I was like: "Well, I'm kind of like, well, when it happens, it happens". I'm kind of, like, laid back with.

M: Were you ever weird out that he was dating her?

D: No, I dated his wife. In fact, it was a real funny. Real funny story about that. So, I mean, we're all good, really good friends. She was out on a date, so we were hanging out and we went to "Drunk Shakespeare".

C: Yeah.

D: "Drunk Shakespeare". Have you heard of it?

M: Like, Drunk History?

D: No. Well, it's Shakespeare, but all the cast members like

C: It's a live show.

D: Have to do, like, Macbeth or something.

C: But this is after we started dating. This is different.

D: And you were out on the date too.

C: Yeah.

D: So, but so then we were hanging out, right? So we're at the show and the guy who harasses the audience is like: "So what's your two stories here? Why are you here tonight?" I'm like: "Well, my girlfriend's out on a date and his wife's out on a date". Just look like: "Excuse me?" And then, yeah, like: "Well, we're poly and they're off on a date and we're hanging out together". "And you're fine with that?" I'm like: "Well, yeah, I mean, I date his wife, too". And then he was like: "Yeah, I date his girlfriend". And the shock was amazing. It was so much...

C: Actually, It was funny, then didn't one of the actresses said: "Let's call her?"

D: Yeah: "Let's call her. We need to verify this".

C: And he call me. So I was actually on this date, actually, the guy was a drummer. He was giving me a drumming lesson, so. Right? He was about to take a picture of me behind the drums, and he said: "Oh, here, you have a call" And I saw, let's call him Jack. It was his friend Jack calling on his phone. He's like: "Oh, Jack is calling". And I'm like: "Oh, okay, that's weird. I'll let it go to voicemail". And so I just let it go to voicemail. And then later, when I listen to the message, I just hear a woman who sounded really drunk. "Carol, Carol. She's not there. I'm hanging up". Something like that. That was the actress. Anyway.

M: So funny.

C: We digress.

D: Right?

F: It's a great story, though. So did the four of you hang out? Did you play the four of you together?

D & C: No.

D: I have my dating life outside of our relationship. She has her dating life outside of a relationship. We really very rarely, we have had some "unicorn" experiences.

C: I hate to say "unicorn", because it had such a negative connotation, but we have a female friend who we dated together for a short period of time. But besides that, we don't really.

D: And a few friends that we.

C: Yeah, like some threesomes, things like that.

F: Why does "unicorn" have a negative connotation?

C: I think it implies unicorn hunting, unicorning, I think it's typically, say, a couple, usually a heteronormative couple, a man and woman looking for another female to join them. But I think the implication is that this other female doesn't really have a say in things, doesn't really have agency.

F: But what's "unicorn hunting"? Because it's so elusive. It's a magical, elusive thing to find, like if you find this "unicorn", supposedly this other female, who's okay with dating a couple. Yeah.

M: Which is actually interesting because we had the interview with London where she said about her experience of being a unicorn was really wonderful. So there is all sides of like.

C: It can be, for sure.

M: But definitely.

I totally hear you. It's been a thing that people talk about, a lot of it being "unicorn hunting" of, like, I think it is kind of somewhat predatory behavior as well as the couple, like, trying to hunt someone down to bring them in.

F: Yeah, that's good to know. I didn't know that, actually.

C: Yeah. Even this friend of ours, when we first started dating, I don't even remember having.

F: You guys were the unicorns.

D: We had known her for years, good friend of ours, and then at a party, she came up to us and was like, I don't unicorn for just anyone, but I want a unicorn for you guys.

C: Yeah. I guess we had had a little flirtation by then.

D: So it was kind of the flipped of the usual script, because we don't do that.

M: Right.

C: But I guess also, so then going back when we first met on our first date, there was definitely a spark right away. We just right away felt like: "Oh, there's something special here". But we were very open about talking about. We had talked about our poly experiences so far to that point, but both agreed that, I think it even came up on our first date, like: "Wow, if this is something here, then that's something that we would want to do". Ando so we did.

M: And you do.

C: And we do. Saying that, God, we've changed a lot over the years.

D: We used to have three pages of agreements.

F: Wow.

C: Yeah.

F: Tell us, maybe one of those pages.

C: I think a lot of it then came out in the very beginning. We weren't really discussing things that made us feel uncomfortable. I think it kind of came out a month or so into it, and I think they were little things. Like, he had had a date with Jane, say, on a Tuesday night, and then the next night, we all had a camp meeting together. We were all camping together at Burning Man, and we met for dinner before this meeting.

I know he had had the date with Jane the night before, and I think I was wearing leggings with cats on them. And he said: "Oh, how funny that you're wearing cat leggings, because Jane is wearing a cat sweater". And, of course, he knew that, because he had spent the night with her and saw her that morning. And I felt really uncomfortable about that, knowing: "Okay, we're seeing her at this event the next day. You just had an overnight with her and saw her this morning, and now I'm seeing her at this event". It just felt a little too close to home.

M: And did it feel that way when you actually saw her, or was it like something that you just kind of feared and then it kind of dissipated once you actually experienced it?

C: I think when I actually saw her, I think it was okay. She and I even joked, like, we took pictures of our cat things together. I think that wasn't so bad. And I think it wasn't so much that I had a feeling having to do with her, it was more having to do with him. So when we had this discussion, I felt really uncomfortable about that. This discussion came up maybe a month or so later, we came up with the rule of: "Okay, no dates with someone if we're then going to see them at an event the next night". That was one of them. But then after a while, we realized, that's ridiculous.

F: So, maybe in that case.

C: It is too controlling. Scheduling is hard enough as it is, but to throw something like that in it, I think one of the other ones, actually, this is kind of funny. I think at one point we had said, like, no a*** sex with other. Okay, whatever, fine. Like, that's something we save with. Um, so he had dated this other Jane, like, pretty steadily for a while, and one time, I think they had a date, like a Friday afternoon. I asked him: "What are you doing on your date?" He's like: "Oh, I think we're going to have a picnic". And for some reason, that felt really, I was like: "I want to go on a picnic". It hit me hard, and I was kind of like: "I don't care if you have a*** sex with someone, but a picnic feels too intimate".

F: That's so funny.

C: Yeah. And then anyway, we realized: "Okay, picnics are fine".

F: Yeah. It's funny because.

M: From picnics to a*** sex.

C: Should that be the name of this particular podcast?

F: If you guys want it, I'll make it happen.

C: This was pretty early on where I was really learning a lot, learning a lot about poly and what I was comfortable with and wasn't. And I think at the time, though, I mentioned earlier, when I first heard about poly, I thought: "Why do you need a community around this?" When I was struggling with little things, it was the community that got me through it. Knowing that I had so many friends that I could talk to about their own relationship structures, and knowing that, you know what: "It's okay to have feelings about this.

It doesn't mean... jealousy is okay". It just means that, okay, you just have a discussion about it and just see what happens. Just because you feel jealous, it doesn't mean you should not do x thing. It just means thinking: "Okay, why? What's the fear here? What am I afraid of?" And actually, someone gave me a really great line along the lines of, okay, when you were going on a picnic with Jane, okay, like: "If Jane and David go on a picnic, the bad thing that will happen is x". Fill in the blank. And thinking of it that way, I thought, well, what is the bad thing? There really is no bad thing. It's. It's fine.

F: Yeah.

C: It took a while to get there, though.

M: But what would you have said the bad thing is at that time? Because there must have been something that was there that was making you feel that way.

C: I think that was more of just an emotional reaction, and it took us a little while to get there, but I think we quickly determined, you know what?: "I'm having an emotional reaction" that we figured out how to separate. My brain says, this is okay, but my heart is just having some feels over this. We kind of came up with a language once we really worked on our communication early on, we came up with the expression for us using the word "wonkies". Like, if I'm feeling "wonkies" about something, it means: "Okay, I'm having an emotional reaction to this, but intellectually, I know this is fine".

F: And does your heart eventually catch up to your brain?

C: Yeah, I think it took a while, but it did.

D: Yeah. I mean, also, this Jane, I dated her for years. In fact, almost like, right up to the point we got married. We dated.

C: But you started dating her around the same time you started dating me. But she had a serious primary at the time, so I didn't feel so "threatened".

D: So there was a lot of learning that happened in that dynamic.

C: Yeah.

M: I think that it's also very important to note in the side of jealousy, especially in these things. Like: "Oh, a picnic is very intimate, and a*** sex is fine". It's FOMO in a way. It's like: "I want to experience this really lovely thing with my partner, and yet they're experiencing it with someone else. And I am sad for myself for not getting to experience".

F: Yeah, that's what I was going to say. It was like: "Oh, I haven't had a picnic with David".

F: Yeah. In a while or ever. I don't know. They are having that. It actually reminds me of, this was also early in my relationship. It was so early that I wasn't even actually dating, but I had, "date" with someone who was interested in me, but I had told him I have a boyfriend, but we had drinks on my rooftop or something, and then I was like, oh, this is so nice.

I want to do this with Seth. And then next day or something, I'm like: “Babe, do you want to go up to the roof and have drinks?” I told him, like: “Oh, yeah, I had this idea because I did this with this other person”, and he kind of felt bad about it. That point of comparison was a little weird for him. And I was like: "Babe, but I wanted to do it with you. I much rather do this with you than with that other person. But I just had the idea because I did it with him".

And it's kind of like overcoming competitiveness mindset that we have, that there's only one person you can have a picnic with or drinks.

D: I think that also kind of gets even broader, that different people have different dynamics with each other. I remember this is kind of funny. Someone, actually, the person that introduced us, she was doing a TED talk, and she was doing a TED talk on polyamory, and the gentleman she was dating at the time, me being one of them, we called ourselves the "man harem", went to this TED talk, and she was like: "And everyone here who's my partner is a different way in my life".

She would say: "So I have my baby boy, who I kind of dominate, and that's our dynamic". And all of us were like: "Oh" and talk about it. And then: "I have my primary partner, and he is bisexual". Because she's bisexual. She was like: "I wanted my primary partner to be bisexual and to be extremely intellectual". He was a researcher and professor.

And then she was like: "And then sometimes I just want to be enveloped and feel like I'm protected and cared for, and I have a rock". And they were all...

C: Pointing at you.

F: Yeah, that was David, for those who cannot see.

D: Yeah. But the thing is, these are completely and utterly, completely different dynamics, if you think about it. And how are you going to do that with one person? I don't think it's even possible.

M: Yeah. Because we all have those different sides of us, the more dominant or the more vulnerable, and the more that you can open up to people in those different facets, it's really nice and just can unlock a lot in yourself. Right?

F: Yeah. And it also takes away pressure from your partner to do those things for you. It's like, you don't have to do sports with me anymore, because this other person.

C: I was dating someone once, I run, he hates running. And at one point, I was dating this guy who was a runner, and he was like: "Great. That's perfect". I mean, I like to usually run alone anyway, so that's besides the point. But you said: "That's great. You go running with him". And actually, there was one time when we were on the boat, I think he and I went for a run, came back to the boat, and you were there. We all had breakfast together.

F: That's great.

D: I was like: "Cool, you have someone to run".

M: That's how I am. I'm like: "James, you like working out? Great. Find yourself a workout partner".

C: When he was dating Jane, I think a few months in, you started dating both of us around the same time. I think.

D: I think it was, like, literally within Two days.

C: Or a couple of weeks from each other. So we had been together. We'd been together a few months that we had a threesome with her, and I felt fine. I didn't have any "wonkies" about the threesome. I think we got together for lunch the next day. This first threesome was just like a hangout at the apartment, I think.

And I remember going to the bathroom and coming back and they were spooning and just feeling like: "Oh, again, the head/heart divide". Right away I had some "wonkies": "Like, oh, that looks so intimate". But then my brain kicked in, like: "Duh, don't be a dummy. Of course. Just go ahead and join them". It was like that 2 seconds before I went back and rejoined them. It's like: "Oh, that looks so nice and cozy. Okay, go ahead. Go be a part of it again".

F: Yeah.

M: I think there's a great point, and really good advice, too, is like, sometimes when you're in a situation where you're feeling somewhat left out, or that's usually not the case. It's just. No, I just have to initiate a little more than I'm used to, and then it just falls into place of, like, this is accepted, and I'm also involved in part of this.

C: Right.

D: It was interesting also because it became a tradition: the birthday threesome.

C: Well, then yeah.

D: The red dresses.

C: Oh, right. No, I think we did two or three birthdays, something like that. There was one time when she and I planned, we were all going to a play party, like one night anyway. But he had been in the army reserves, and he's still in his uniform. So I came up with the idea. We surprised him. I took two of his army jackets. She and I each wore one.

M: Oh, my God.

C: Gave you, like, a little sexy scene. Sexy dance.

M: Wait, with red dresses?

D & C: No, sorry, that was a different one.

M: Okay.

C: That was the one. And that was actually at a play party where I had the idea. Okay, we're going to both come out at this party with the army jackets. But there was another one, I think we just all went to dinner, and she and I made the plan: "Okay, let's just both wear cute, hot red dresses". And so we have a picture of us in a booth in this restaurant and you in the middle just looking super happy, s***** and grit on your face. And the two of us in the red dresses.

F: Blending things like that with Jane helped.

C: Yeah, she's really amazing at putting together Burning Man costumes, for example, so she helped me design a jacket for him for his birthday, and that felt really nice, like a little thing that she and I did together as a surprise for his birthday.

M: I love that. Yeah. And that's a lot of it is, like, there are really special moments in polyamory that it is a lot of work, it's a lot of communication. It is a lot of hurt, because we're all trying something very new. We don't have a book to go by or society go by. So just remembering that it is a give and take of how special is this for you? But a lot of these moments specifically are just like: "Wow, this feels really good. And how nice is it that I can please my partner in this way that I can't do on my own?" Even our wedding was, like, very poly.

C: Kind of polycentric. Well, we had two weddings, so we had a very small family one.

D: It's like, we're not going to get in all this with all of them, but, yeah, so we were married. The couple that introduced me that I've known for 25 years, and that she dated the guy in it, he's the one who actually married us. His wife, who's one of my besties, walked me down the aisle, and we also dated.

C: You dated for, like, a hot minute years early.

D: Yeah, I mean, for a hot minute, but, like, a few times over several years. But we just decided it's like, you're like my sister. We can't do this. So she walked me down the aisle. Then you were walked down by your girlfriend.

C: A woman I was dating. She was still my girlfriend at the time.

D: And then Jane was our flower girl.

C: Yeah, that was a very poly situation.

F: Instead of having the itinerary and paper, you should have had all the connections. I'm curious because you mentioned Jane and how it was a process to figure that out or figure the dynamic out, because I recently had someone asking me for episodes in which we talk about having two serious partners, because most of our guests are more, like, dating. So I don't know if you guys have any tips on that, on actual.

C: Well, we have a story there, I guess. Sure, I'll start it. So this was just a few months after we got married. We were at a small, mini local festival, and I think she was the one, I don't know let's call her Anna. And she was someone that I had known for years. She was someone who was in our friend circle for years. She came up to me and said: "I think David and I are kind of vibing". Like: "Is that cool?" I said: "Oh, yeah. Great. Thank you. That's really sweet of you. Thanks for coming up and telling me". So then I guess they smooched or whatever that weekend. In the weeks after that, it got serious pretty quickly.

D: Yeah.

C: They were seeing each other weekly. I think there was a point when I said: "Whoa, this is going really fast. I'm having some feelings about this". I knew, and I could tell without him even telling me, oh, he's developing really strong feelings for this person. But again, she's someone that I really liked and respected. And actually, she and I would, we'd get together about once a month and have lunch and talk through it, and she would say the feelings that she had, obviously she knew that he was married. I think she was at our wedding. Was she?

D: Yeah.

C: She was even at our wedding, she admitted that, yes, she had very strong feelings with him, but she would also love, she wanted a primary at the same time. It's kind of a head heart divide: "I know this guy cannot be my primary, but I'm developing strong feelings for him".

Anyway, when she and I would get together and have lunch and we'd both talk about how we're feeling, I'd feel great. For the rest of that day. For the rest of that day, I'd feel fine. This is good. I'm glad we communicated. But then the "wonky" feelings would start to creep back real quick.

F: Who had that idea to get together and talk about it?

C: I think she did. I think she did. She's just someone who's in her line of work. She's a really good communicator. So I think she was the one who brought it up at first, which I really appreciated. And David was fully honest with me. He said: "Yes, of course we're using condoms". But I also knew from conversations with her, I forget she was in her mid to late thirty s at that time. Really, really wanted a baby. Wanted a baby, like yesterday. And she admitted they were using condoms, but she wasn't on any other birth control. So it became apparent that if she got pregnant, again using condoms, there's whatever very small chance, if she got pregnant, that she would want to have that baby. And I was in the back of my head, I was like: "No way. Obviously it's her choice, but this is not what I signed up for". We even talked about this earlier tonight.

I think that would have been the only thing so far in our marriage in almost five years, if she had gotten pregnant and had a baby. That's something I could have seen breaking us up, potentially. Who knows? Maybe not. Anyway, she eventually, it was about five or six months, though, she broke up with David, I think saying, because it got too hard, she really wanted her primary. And I remember you. Obviously, you were upset. I felt like you blamed me a bit.

D: No.

C: Yeah.

D: I was just upset.

C: I think you blamed me. It was an emotional reaction, I think. Again, head heart divide. Anyway, I guess at the end of the day, actually, she ended up finding a primary and had a baby and so happy for her. But I think that's probably the toughest thing that we've ever had to deal with. Well, that and also the situation in Thailand.

D: Oh, yeah.

C: Yeah. Well, anyway, going back to the Anna, anything else that you want to say about that before we switch to a new story?

D: Yeah, I mean, everything that was said is true, and we fell in love, and it was a very intense relationship.

F: Thank you for sharing that, because I feel like that's a lot of the fear that people have, like: "Oh, if I open up to polyamory, what if my partner falls in love with someone else? And what if they leave me?" Or even if they don't leave me, just the idea of your partner falling in love with someone else is very threatening. You mentioned that talking things through helped, but were there other things that helped you feel secure in your relationship, or what was the part that was difficult?

C: I think it was one, knowing that if she got pregnant, that would change the dynamic of everything. Even from a practical standpoint.

M: Totally.

C: I wasn't so bothered by you falling in love with someone. I think a little part of it, in a way, was jealousy, that I also didn't have something like that, because at the time, I thought, well, that's something that I want. I want two ongoing lovers who love me as well. But a little bit of jealousy, I think it was more the potential pregnancy, and I think one other, from an emotional viewpoint, was that it happened only like a month or two after we got married. So even this good friend of ours, you're a good friend, a friend, said to him: "Why did you feel the need to get into this new relationship like this right after you got married?" And I get it, it just happened. There's no real answer for that. I mean, saying that we talked about this a little bit today, I joked with him. I said, well: "Okay, even if you were in a situation like that, you're getting old. So your sperm isn't as strong as it used to be". Less likely to get someone pregnant now. No, but I think these days also, now we've been married five years.

I think also our relationship is in just a much more stable, grounded place, and thankfully that's happened with time.I think in the past, I just had a work trip where I was away from home for two months. I was out of the country and he asked me: "Hey, I'm going to Love Burn, is it okay if I go and if I camp and share a tent with this friend?" this woman that he used to date and I had no.

F: A different woman, right?

D: Yeah.

C: Oh, yeah. Someone different altogether. But this time I felt like, no jealous reaction at all. More like: "Oh, good. That's great. Good for you to be with someone and not be alone during the festival and be able to share that with someone".

F: Yeah. Because that's a big thing. The stable ground is really important. And a lot of that is not just how much you love each other. It's just time sometimes, right? I see it with my partner. We went from what I shared, like, him being jealous of me doing the same activity with this other guy or whatever, or not wanting me to date other people to now, even this week, I don't normally do this.

This was actually the first time I went on two dates in one week. He was totally fine with that. He's fine with it because at this point, I've come back to him so many times. We've been together three years and a half, almost four years. I've gone on many dates and I always go back to him. It's also training your brain to like: "Oh, it's fine, she'll come back to me". But also just like: "Okay, we've been together for three years and a half. We live in the same house". It's less threatening for him to let me do whatever I want to. And did you ever experience that? Did you ever fall in love with someone, Carol?

C: I don't think I've really fallen in love with anyone. I would potentially be open to falling in love with someone. I mean, there is someone else that I care about, but it feels more like a sexual friendship. Actually, there's someone we had been dating, like, eight months at the time, and he is married and poly. But we see each other maybe every three or four months at most.

We don't see each other that often. It's really infrequent. But, yeah, it just feels more like an occasional sexual friendship, I guess, also backtracking, I think there was one time that was definitely more challenging, Thailand. But that was also early on.

D: Yes, that was quite early.

M: Tell us what happened in Thailand.

C: We had been dating for about six months at that point, so it was still pretty new. We knew that we were serious.

D: This is where we had the three pages of...

C: The three pages of agreements. Yeah.

D: And one of the agreements was before something is a thing, that we would talk about it.

C: Yeah.

D: So in my mind, before something is a thing means before you sleep with someone. But in her mind, it was more like, no, you could sleep with someone. But it's like, if this is going to be an ongoing thing.

C: We didn't really clearly define that. So he was back at home. I was in Thailand on a work trip, and there was a guy I had met briefly in New York before, and we kind of, like, hit it off really quickly in New York. And it just happened. He was going to be in Thailand at the same time. And I didn't mention anything to David because also, I thought, well, one, I don't know if we're even going to meet up. I don't know if we meet up in Thailand, is anything going to happen? Is there going to be any chemistry? Anyway, long story short, we met up, and there was chemistry. And then I told him about it.

M: And this was afterwards.

C: This was while I was still away. This was kind of in the moment.

M: So you guys hooked up, and then you told him?

C: Right, yeah. And he was livid.

D: I was devastated. I was like, yeah, I was in a bad, bad state.

C: And in my head, I thought: "Wait, we're open and, poly, isn't this okay? Isn't this what we do?" And we talked about it, obviously, a lot more when we got home. And I think that's when I realized that. Oh, you ended up telling me that it came as a surprise and just you don't like surprises.

D: I don't like surprises at all. I can handle anything, but I need to know, need to be.

C: Yeah. In hindsight, had I known that going in, I think in hindsight, even before I left for the trip, knowing what I know now, I would have said, hey: "I'm going on this trip. I might meet up with this guy there. I don't know if anything's going to happen or not. But just FYI, this is where we are right now".

D: And it was interesting because this guy was also in the community, so we would see him at stuff, and I couldn't be in the room with this guy for quite a while. I would clinch. I'd feel like I wanted to punch the guy or all these kind of things, right? And then once that started calming down, I was like, you know what? I want to sit down with him. And I told him, I was like: "Look, it's not you. I had this reaction because I got blindsided. And I know you had no idea what was going on here, but this was". And we started talking, and we actually ended up being friends.

C: Yeah. After that happened, I actually started dating him a little bit again.

D: And when he was out of town, we actually cat sat for.

C: We stayed at his apartment together.

D: He's been on our boat, too, things can change up.

M: Yeah. I think that's really important that you went for that move of just kind of stepping up and being like, you know what? This makes me really uncomfortable right now, and I just want to punch this guy in the face. But you know what? I'm going to put that emotion aside, really get to the bottom of it. And being vulnerable with him of what you were struggling with, which then allowed you to come to a different side of it, which is really cool.

C: I think that was also just for both of us. It was just a way of still figuring out how we communicate with each other. That made me realize that the hard talks are the ones that are the most important to have. I think there were so many times I'd come to you with some hesitation like: "Hey, is this okay? X, Y, and Z?" And you were fine about it, that it made me realize: "Oh, wow, you're easy to talk to". You really are communicative. And it just made me a better communicator in other parts, other facets of my life overall.

M: Yeah, I love that. It's like: "Is this okay? Is that fine to you?" I think I struggle with that myself a lot, because then it feels like I'm asking permission. And I am very strong about feeling that way.

D: Yeah, I get that. I see it more like: "Hey, there's a road there, and cars are zipping by, by the way, there's a car coming down the road. It's not asking permission, it's just informing that you could get splattered by this car crossing the road.

M: Is that okay with you? Good.

C: Yeah.

M: Okay.

C: I think it's more of a check in. I think at this point, 99% of the time, whatever we ask, I think we know the other person will be okay with. Part of me still feels every so often again, because I was monogamous and learned a monogamous lifestyle for years and years, there's still a little part of me that feels a little funny. Like a date came up, potential date with this person for next week, this person that I've been known for years. And I asked him today, hey. Because he doesn't have the opportunity to host at his place. So if we hang out, if it's a sexual date, then it will be here at our place that we share. So I asked him: "Hey, is it okay if we have this date next Thursday?" He's like: "Yeah, okay, I'll clear out. I'll make other plans". There's still a little part of me that feels not bad, still a little my own personal "wonkies" in a way, even though I know it's okay intellectually, I know it's okay with you. I would do the same for you. I have done the same with you.

M: Well, that's tough, too, being in your space, because that can be a very. I want to refrain from saying territorial, even though that can be what it is. And just like: "No, this is our space". Then attaching those memories almost to your space, too, can feel just kind of like the same thing as the FOMO of the picnic. It's like: "Oh, that feels so special. This is our space". And I can totally see how you can still feel guilty over this, even after so much time.

C: Yeah, I think so. I think there were also times, like, other examples of FOMO, like, when you were seeing Jane for example, like, David He's a really good date. He's. He's really thoughtful. And I remember, I think you got her tickets for some show for her birthday. And I think for me, it wasn't so much the FOMO of you going. It was kind of like: "Oh, I want someone else besides you to also take me on dates, like that".

F: And on that note, actually, because we've talked about what you guys have learned and what has been difficult and all the progress that you've made, but we started off with David coming out from a marriage, and you also coming from other monogamous relationships and feeling like those relationships didn't give you what polyamory is giving you. So can you tell us a little bit more about that? Why do you think this helps your relationship?

C: I think. Well, one, I think it's because you're a better fit for me than any of these other people have been. I think, two, it feels like we give each other this freedom. It's like fewer restrictions, I guess.

Even though these days I'm not really dating much, I kind of can't be bothered right now. But knowing that I have the option means a lot to me. And every so often, I'll mention there's a couple of guys in the community I semi had my eye on, but I don't feel compelled to act on it just yet. And he's like: "Oh, yeah, that one. I know you have your little crush on him".

D: With polyamory, it's almost like there's chess and there's 3D chess. I think with polyamory, it actually makes you better in your primary relationship because of all these dynamics and all these things that you're confronted with, need to deal with and learn from, you learn more.

It's like AP relationship, whereas monogamy is like, for instance, when I was married before like eleven years, it was like it just kind of chugged along and there was not much opportunity even to learn and to figure things out because the rules were like, these are the rules. That's it.

M: And you fall into those patterns.

D: Right. Yeah. And if you don't get what you need out of that, your choices either get divorced or just deal with it.

C: I think something that actually also really helped me a lot early on when I was still having some struggles and I had felt some "wonkies" over Jane for a bit. But I remember you coming home and telling know, every time I have a date with Jane, I come home and I feel like I'm in love with you even a little more. And that meant so much to know. Not that I wanted to detract anything from her, not in that respect, but just more of like: "Wow, this is something that's actually bringing us even closer". And I really felt like it has.

F: Yeah, I mean, I feel that way as well. And it's kind of hard to explain. I mean, sometimes it literally is, because I'm like, well, if I compare this person with my partner, my partner is better. Sometimes, to be completely frank, sometimes it's that, but sometimes it isn't, and sometimes I have an amazing time out, but I just come back loving him more. And it's kind of a weird thing because it's like: "Why would you feel that way if you just felt that way for someone else?" And it's almost like love is this expansive thing. If you are feeling love for someone else, then you also feel it for your partner. Somehow I can't wrap my head around it.

C: I know what you're saying, though. Yeah.

M: I think it comes from, because I've experienced this, too, where you have your nesting partner or your primary, and then you have these adventures you're going on. So you're getting that NRE, the New Relationship Energy of reminding you, like: "Oh, this is exciting and fun" and all of that. And then you get to also go home to somebody who you're comfortable with and you love so deeply and you've been through things with, and it gives you both, again, those facets of being able to experience both of those things. So it does feel like an expansion of love in that point. Because you're like, I'm loving this adventure and new experience. I'm learning so much. I'm getting to learn also with my partner, and that's making us grow.

And then also, I know I'm very comfortable with this person as well. So I think that's where it kind of comes from, of, like, feeling, I wouldn't say whole and complete. I think that you can feel that way. I think you can also feel that way without it, but, yeah, I think that that's kind of a well rounded way to look at it.

F: Yeah. And also, now that I'm thinking about it, I think that when you go on a date with someone new, you kind of put a little more effort on communicating better or shaving or looking better or coming up with interesting date ideas, and then you kind of remind yourself, like: "Oh, I haven't done this with my partner. In a way, I should be doing this with my partner". It kind of brings you back to be more intentional. As intentional as you are with someone new, you are meeting, you are trying to connect with.

C: Yeah. And I think it's when I do that, when I do have a date with someone, it's sort of a reminder of, like, oh, yeah, we should definitely have a date night soon. And I think we usually do do that after that.

F: Well, you guys seem to have mastered it. I know that it's not perfect, and I'm sure that you're still learning, but I'm glad that you got to have all of those experiences and that you have seems like a very strong relationship.

D: Well, she's my "bishar", which is a hebrew word for basically twin flame or your soulmate.

C: I feel the same way.

M: Well, I've known you guys for a while now. I've actually seen you guys at some play parties, and I just always remember you both as just wonderful, warm humans. And, yeah, I've always seen your relationship as very strong. So I'm so glad you guys were able to meet with us and share your story.

F: We do have the last question.

M: Oh, yeah, that's right.

C: Sure.

F: So, with all of that journey and all of that love that you have, what would you tell to a polycurious person?

C: I think, well, something I would tell someone else is be as honest as you can be brutally honest. If you're dating someone and you want to be poly and you don't think they will, well, then that's not the right match for you. I think it's about being really honest with yourself, being honest with yourself first about what it is that you want and need and then sharing that honesty with other people. And you know what? You don't have to figure it out overnight. It's challenging.

I mean, one thing that helped me for sure, I mentioned knowing other people in the poly community and having friends that I could go to and asking about their poly journey. I guess not everyone has this, but hey, you can look up things online, or hopefully there is someone that you can ask and connect with. And knowing that it's okay to have these feelings. Maybe it's jealousy. Maybe it's wonkies. It's okay to feel those feelings. Just talk it through. Jealousy, for example, I know that's, I think, a number one thing of non-poly people or monogamous people, whatever you want to call it. Well, don't you feel jealous? Like. Yeah, sure you do, but that's okay. It doesn't mean that you should break up. Jealousy can mean a number of things. Maybe I feel left out. Maybe I'm feeling FOMO. Maybe I'm something or another sad that I am home alone or whatever. Yeah. I think just being honest with yourself and everyone else and just know that it gets easier.

D: I would say the biggest piece of advice I'd give about poly is that take it slow and go as slow as the slowest person who you are involved with.

C: That was my advice with Anna when you were dating.

D: So that. And also, mistakes will be made. They always are. Poly is no different than anything else. And just learn from the mistakes and try not to make the same mistake again. You still might. And just be kind to yourself and your partners.

M: Yeah. And I think along with that, too, that resonates with me, because I think mistakes, like you said, are always made in everyday life. And we need this space to make mistakes as well. So forgiving yourself and also giving yourself the space to learn from those mistakes and actually learn from it, but also, if you're on the other side of that mistake is like, give that person a little space and just acknowledge that they know that this is a mistake and something that you both can grow from.

F: Well, thank you guys so much.

D & C: Thank you.

C: Thank you for having this. I've also enjoyed hearing all the other stories and hearing other people's experiences. So thank you so much for doing.

F: Oh, I'm so glad to hear that, means a lot to us.

F: That's it for today's episode. I thought Carol and David were phenomenal, so I hope that you enjoyed that conversation as much as I did.