Marcela: When I met Lola, I remember being like: "Oh, this girl is so cool". Like really connecting with her and just really liking her vibe and obviously thinking that she was so beautiful and like being attracted to her and everything. And I think it was actually one of the first times that I was the one who started flirting with someone that, and it wasn't just like Brad doing this thing for us. Like, I remember being like: "Hey babe, like I was flirting with this girl. You would have been so proud of me".

Fernanda: Hi everyone, this is Polycurious and I am your host, Fernanda or Fer, for short. In this episode, I chat with Marcela, also known as The Hypnoqueen, on Instagram. Marcela is actually a friend of mine and I think a truly special person. In this episode, we talk about her experience having a relationship with a woman throughout college. She tells us about her relationship with Brad and how they went from having occasional experiences with other women to building a more meaningful long term relationship with someone we call Lola in this episode. Marcela also shares how she learned to own and communicate her desires throughout her exploration of non-monogamy.

And she tells us about the process she is going through with Brad in which they decided to separate after over four years and are now figuring out what the next phase of their relationship looks like. I know a lot of people are going through breakups, especially after the pandemic, and I think her advice around navigating that will be really useful if you are in that situation. In this conversation, you'll hear me talk about a group called NASP or Not a Sex Party and we'll talk about where that name came from. But NASP is an intimate community from New York that focuses on deep connection and co-creating amazing experiences.

I have been part of that community for the past couple of years and have had the most magical experiences with them. And talking about magic, they are actually having an event during the 4 July weekend called CAMP or Calling All Magical People.

They are collaborating with several other groups in New York and this is their first event that's fully open to the public. I get a lot of listeners asking how they can find community and although NASP is not a sex party as the name states, there's a lot of polycurious and open minded people in that community, many of whom have been interviewed in this podcast.

So if you want to learn more about CAMP, the link is in our show notes and you can use the code STAYMAGICAL for a discount.

Also, if you are interested in Marcela's hypnotherapy services, which we also discuss in this episode, feel free to reach out to her through her @thehypnoqueen Instagram also linked in the show notes and mention you're a Polycurious listener for a 20% discount. Okay, let's better get to this interview.

Here's my conversation with Marcela.

F: Hi, Marcela. I'm so happy to have you here finally. I feel like it's been a few months, maybe even a year since we thought of having this conversation and we're finally here. And you're one of those people that I know we've been friends for a couple of years now, but I haven't had the chance to actually sit down and go into detail about many things that I've been wondering. So I'm excited that we finally get the chance to do that.

M: Yeah, me too. I feel like it's been in the works for a while, so I'm excited to finally get to have this conversation with you.

F: Great. Tell us a little bit about yourself.

M: So my name is Marcela. I'm 34 years old, and I've been living in New York for almost twelve years now. Grew up in Miami, and yeah, just love it here so much. I've really built a life here and a community and just a life that feels really good and authentic to me. I'm a hypnotherapist, so that's a lot of what I'm doing these days is building my business and working with this tool that has really changed my life.

F: Nice. And I know that you quit your job about a year ago, maybe to start your own hypnosis practice. Can you tell us more about that? Because even I'm not really sure what that actually means. Cause of course we see in the movies, but the little you've told me about it sounds like we actually don't really get it.

M: Yeah, absolutely. I think one of the biggest things I've had to do with hypnosis starting out was to just do, like, the education piece, because there are so many misconceptions about what it actually is. And I think that pop culture really portrays this image of this gimmicky stage hypnotist who's making you do things against your will, like cluck like a chicken or do something embarrassing. And of course, that is not at all what I do. That is its own branch of almost like an entertainment stage hypnotism.

And so what I do is a lot more like a hypnotherapy. It's a therapeutic exchange where I'm helping people learn how to work with their subconscious mind through this tool that really is like a guided meditation in a way. So, so much of the things that we do and the ways that we show up, the behaviors that we've learned from a very young age, so much of that programming and so much of that kind of like just rules of conduct and beliefs and all of these things, all of those live in our subconscious. And our conscious lens is kind of filtered through this, like, programming that's really happening in the background. And hypnosis is a tool where you move into this meditative state and you connect with the subconscious and you're able to do that kind of work of reprogramming or just changing things from the inside, if that kind of makes sense.

So it's very empowering and kind of puts the power back into your own hands to get to have a more active choice about who you want to be and how you want to show up and create so much opportunity for liberation from these patterns and things that we have.

F: How does a typical hypnotherapy session look like?

M: So with me in particular, you know, I'll speak to how I do it. You know, people come to me and they have a particular intention of something that they want to work on within themselves. That can be any number of things. It can be just having more self love, overcoming self doubt, or connecting to your own inner wisdom and intuition, and really being able to feel more confident and empowered in our decisions and in the ways that we operate in the world. And first, we'll kind of explore that. So through some journaling, through some, like, writing prompts and different activities, discussion, exploring what that change really looks like.

And then from there, we'll move into the actual hypnosis, which, like I mentioned, it's a bit like a guided meditation where I take you into a state of very deep relaxation through a number of what we call inductions.

There's a lot of, like, visualization, embodiment practices where I'm guiding you to almost do, like a mental rehearsal of what this change is going to look like once you've achieved it, and you're almost bringing that future reality and projecting it onto the present, and then you're training your body and your mind almost to invoke that. And the more that you do that, the more that you're able to just create that reality for yourself.

F: And what were you doing when you decided to quit your job and dedicate to hypnotherapy full on?

M: Like, what was my job?

F: Yeah.

M: So I was working for climate change communications nonprofit at the time, so we worked with the media to help inform the narrative around climate change is the easiest way that I can explain it. The organization is an amazing organization, doing such great work. I really loved the mission, but the work with hypnotherapy felt so fulfilling and so rewarding in a way that no other job ever truly had. So I knew that I needed to follow that.

F: That's awesome.

I'm so happy for you.

M: Yeah. Thank you.

F: And sounds like this was, like, the most recent part of your journey. But if you can take us back to when you started to become interested in non-monogamy or when you learned about it, was this something that always, like, seemed intriguing to you, or was this something that was unexpected?

M: I think it was a little bit, like, not direct. I think something that feels important to mention for me is that growing up, I had a lot of confusing feelings about the longevity of love and marriage and these traditional relationships that I grew up around. I just saw so many examples of it not working, like, in my family, so many divorces or even with my parents, so much fighting. And I think I often questioned from a really young age: "Is this the right way?" So many people just seem unhappy, or they stay in these long term relationships and they're not really satisfied. They're not really happy. The love kind of dwindles. People just stay in these relationships out of convenience. And I always grappled with that, and I think it created a lot of fear for me around falling in love from a very young age. I was like: "Oh, I'm just going to fall in love and end up getting hurt and being in this tumultuous relationship with someone that won't last.

What's the point?" This very existential worries that you have as a younger person who's just trying to figure out how to live in the world. And I remember that when I moved to New York, it took me a few years to discover, but when I started to come into this more, like, non-conventional community of people and started to hear more about non-monogamy, something in me was like: "Oh, okay, this isn't the only way.

It's not just these long term monogamous relationships. There are other options". And it was the first time that I realized that there, there could be other options. And I'm such a curious person. Like, I always have been about just all of the different ways that you can do things. Like not just doing it the way that everybody does it, but just finding a way of doing things that feel right for you and just feel, like, in alignment. So I think that was an initial curiosity, but it took many years to actually arrive at a place of actually exploring non-monogamy. It was more of like a seed that was planted.

F: Well, I know that the first time that you got to experiment with that a little bit was through your relationship with Brad, who I'm not sure, actually, when you met, how you met. So maybe you can start telling us about that and whether the non-monogamy conversation was something that was there from the beginning or something that kind of came up later?

M: Yeah. So we were friends for a while before we started dating. When I originally met Brad, he actually had a girlfriend at the time, and we met through a mutual friend of ours. Didn't really talk to him that much. And then we kind of kept crossing paths because we were part of this same group of friends, so we would be at similar events. And actually, our, our initial interactions were quite funny. And he tells the story way better than I do, but they... So essentially what happened was that Brad was in a relationship, but he had a

Like, his partner at the time, she was traveling, and she had given him, like, a free pass. Like, while she was away, he was allowed to have one hookup or, like, explain, explore one opportunity if there was someone that he was interested in. And at this time, him and I had been seeing each other more and more at out, at parties, at events. So he had decided that he was going to use his free pass on me. He was going to try and approach me and just kind of was flirting with me and all of this stuff. But the funny thing was that I had mistaken him for somebody else.

Like, I thought that he was someone that a friend of mine had hooked up with, my best friend who had hooked up with. And so when he approached me to, like, I think he said something like, he wanted to kiss me or he asked if he could kiss me or something at this party that we were at. I was like: "Oh, this is so sleazy. Like, this guy was like, you know, had made a pass at my best friend, and now he's just making a pass at me. Like, no, absolutely not". And I kind of shut it down really quickly. Later came to find out that this was a huge misunderstanding and it was not the same person at all.

F: Oh, my God. Were you like: "F***"

M: Yeah. Well, you know, I don't know what I thought about it. I just. It was funny. And apparently he said that the way that I said no just felt like such an intense rejection that he was actually kind of scared to talk to me for a while after that. And I had no idea about any of this. I think we were drinking, and I just thought it was funny or whatever.

We ended up rekindling later at some event, started talking, and then from there, we really started building more of a connection. Him and his partner had broken up. And so at some point in that journey, we had started getting closer, first as friends. And it wasn't until New Year's of 2017, like 2017 going into 2018, that was when we really started in earnest and kind of things really turned a page, you know, just going into, like, a new chapter of our dynamic, because we planned this house, which was like, the first house of the, you know, what has now grown into this whole community of events.

We had talked about not wanting to spend another New Year's in the city paying $100 for a ticket to an overcrowded warehouse party where it's loud and you're just trying to find your friends all night long. We were like, we've done that. We've been there. Let's do something different. Why don't we organize a house away?

We can invite a bunch of people, and we can just have this amazing experience where the people that you're looking for at the party, they're just all in the room with you, and you're just. You are the party. So we threw that party, and that was the first what then came to be known as "Not a Sex Party".

F: Which I should say that name, the "Not as Sex Party", I think that you can't just say it without clarifying what that actually means.

M: Yeah. It started off specifically as a friend of Brad's who she saw the event description, and it was like, come get warm in the hot tub or whatever. And the language was kind of funny. And she's like: "Wait, are you inviting me to a sex party?" And he was like: "No, of course not". And so it became almost like it started off as this joke, this kind of inside joke that then just grew into the name. And, of course, at the time, we didn't expect end it to kind of go beyond this group of friends. So it didn't matter that we were calling it that.

It was just kind of like an inside name, but then it just stuck, hilariously enough. So that is why it's called that. And it truly is not a sex party.

F: Yeah. And that. I mean, as you said, it was 2017, the first house, and then you guys kept doing houses. I joined the community in 2020. We rented out a summer camp, 60 people, middle of the pandemic. Of course, we all got tested and, yeah, and it's just been so wonderful to get to know everyone and really find a community that I feel like I resonate with. And you've been a very important part of that community. Brad, who we're talking about, has also been one of the main organizers. And now we're not doing the houses anymore, but it has evolved into this festival organizing group that has, like, all sorts of great events that now are, like, a lot bigger. But, yeah, just giving some context on that.

But anyhow, you went to this house in 2017, and that's where you and Brad actually started becoming a thing?

M: Yeah, that was like, something just changed. Like, we had already been flirting and whatever. Like, there was already an existing dynamic there, but it was very casual and, like, wasn't clear that anything would come of it. And after New Year's, Brad at the time, was traveling a lot for work. He was still doing, like, food and travel writing. So he was actually away for the better part of that beginning of the year.

But we were in contact. And he actually met up with me in Nicaragua for my birthday. So I had seen him. But once he kind of came back to New York after those travels, we had just a check in. Like: "Okay, what is this? What's going on between us?" And kind of like, the start of our official relationship was around that point.

F: And when did non-monogamy come into the picture?

M: So, actually, pretty much from the beginning. The first time that I had approached someone about non-monogamy it was not Brad, it was someone else that I had dated, this guy we dated for almost a year, and he was very much just, like, wanted a traditional relationship, in many ways, we just weren't aligned, which is, you know, why we ended up kind of going our separate ways. So I had already tried it once, and it didn't work. So when Brad and I, very much toward the beginning, you know, I kind of brought that up again. I was like: "Hey, this is something that I've been so curious about, and I've never explored it, but I would love to". And, like, you know, let's talk about that.

F: How did he respond?

M: So we kind of had to talk through, like, the ideal situation, what that might look like for us in a ways that felt comfortable. And what we kind of arrived at from, you know, a lot of talks about that and safety and everything was that we would begin by kind of having shared experiences together. So that was what, those were the parameters that we came up with that felt like it honored both of our boundaries and felt, like, good for both of us and felt like a fun exploration and a way to kind of, like, kick off this journey with non-monogamy.

And, you know, it kind of ended up staying there for the most part of our relationship, but it led to so many beautiful adventures and growth. So that was how it kind of started off. Yeah.

F: And when did you get that first chance of having an experience together?

M: Yeah, I was at Burning Man that year. Nine months after we kind of, like, started more romantically, like, connecting with each other.

F: And tell us about that experience.

M: So the kind of fascinating thing about this community is that we do have so many open, curious, amazing people with whom there is also just so much trust and respect and love as friends. And so our first experience was with a friend. And the funny thing, too, was that, like, at the beginning of all of this, I was so shy about, like, I always wanted Brad to be the one who would, like, initiate or, like, make these things happen for us because I was just, like, so shy at the time about, like, voicing desires or, like, if I did want something to happen with someone, I was like: "Oh, but what if they don't want it?" Or, like: "How do I say this?" Or "What if they think it's weird because it's a friend?" or whatever. And so I kind of always would have him, like, do. I'd be like: "Go, go, make this happen for us". So I remember, yeah, we just had, like, a flirtation going on with this friend. And I think at some point Brad kind of voiced that we had this, like, curiosity and, like, asked if she was interested, and she was. So that was our first, like, shared experience.

And it was super fun and super sexy and was just amazing. Like, it was amazing for it to be with someone that we knew that we loved. It just made it, like, playful and fun and sexy and yeah, it was a really good first experience.

F: And at this point, had you ever had an experience with a woman?

M: I had. I actually dated a woman for almost four years.

F: Oh, okay.

M: In college.

F: Great. So you already knew, you know, that was something that you were into. How was your experience also just dating a woman? Because I feel like we don't hear that much of people who are bisexual who, like, date a woman, fall in love with a woman, then date a man, fall in love with a man. You know, like, it's either, like: "Oh, you know, we play with women" or "Oh, I'm fully lesbian or I'm fully straight, you know?" So how was that experience?

M: Yeah, it was an interesting, like, exploration of my own sexuality. You know, when I started to feel feelings for this woman, she was a friend of mine, and she identifies as a lesbian. So she doesn't date men. She only dates women. And I remember, like, at one point, we were just getting closer as friends, and then she started, like, coming on to me, but I kind of, like, liked it. But I didn't want to admit that I liked it because I didn't know what that meant for my sexuality. And it was a really confusing time, for sure. And I think, like, we've come such a long way with, and maybe this is also just me living in our New York bubble, but I just think as a society, we've come such a long way in more, like, fluidity and sexuality and being open about that and talking about that. But I think at the time when this happened, it was still such a big deal to, "come out of the closet" or talk about these things.

And so it felt like a huge, almost like grappling with my identity. Like: "Oh, what does this mean that I'm a lesbian now?" People were trying to box me into these labels. They kept asking me: "So you're lesbian now?" And I always felt so confused by that question because I didn't feel any different. I was like, I just feel like myself but myself that now has feelings for a woman or this curiosity. So we started dating in secret, and we didn't tell any of our friends. I was so nervous for them to find out. Finally had to start telling people. And in that, we started developing a more serious relationship. And then, yeah, we fell in love with each other and ended up dating for almost four years.

Toward the end of the relationship, I knew that I would not be satisfied by only dating a woman. And I was starting to crave, like, interactions with men again and exploring my sexuality with men again. And, you know, ultimately was pretty much the reason why our relationship came to an end. And it was really painful because I did really love her so much, but I knew that there was a part of me that I wasn't getting to explore. So that was also interesting because then when we broke up and I moved to New York, I was like: "Oh, well, I could never be with a woman, so I guess I just shouldn't date women anymore". And I kind of closed off the part of me that did like women, and that was, like, you know, excited about that or, like, excited about that exploration.

And it wasn't until years later that I refound that part of myself and felt comfortable exploring it in a way that wasn't like: "Oh, well, you're dating a woman, so you're a lesbian now, you know, like this kind of, like, binary".

F: Right. Like super black and white. Right? Like: "Oh, dating a woman doesn't feel right to me. Okay. I guess now I should date only men" I'm glad that you have come so far, and also, we've come as a society, or at least as a bubble.

M: Exactly. And it was also because I found a world in which that exploration was embraced and encouraged, and I felt like I didn't have that before, you know? So it was, like, really beautiful to get to come back into something that had been closed for me for, like, a long time.

M: Right. So after you had that first threesome with Brad, did you feel any jealousy? How did things evolve from there? Did you continue seeing this person after Burning Man?

M: I remember at some point, like, he was spending a lot of time flirting with her, and I remember almost feeling a little, I don't want to say ignored, but a lot of his energy was going into making this thing happening and flirting with her and showing her attention.

And so I do remember at one point being like: "Hey, this is making me a little bit uncomfortable". And him just immediately recognizing that that was happening and changing it and just showing up for me in the way that I needed. And I think that's been such a huge part of exploring non-monogamy, being so willing and able to recognize what's happening and just voice that and just having the other person really put your needs first and foremost, being like: "Okay, this is what you're feeling. What can we do? What do you need from me in order to feel safe again?" "Okay, you just need me to spend a little more time with you right now. Of course". "Amazing". "Let's do that".

And I always felt like if anything would arise, it was very quickly resolved, typically because it was just a matter of voicing it and having that feeling be received and be acknowledged and then just doing whatever needed to happen to switch it around.

F: Yeah. That reassurance people talk about. I think that it's scary to ask for reinsurance because it's very vulnerable to be like: "Hey, I feel left out" or whatever it is that you're feeling, but sometimes it's as simple as asking for it, and then: "Oh, okay". And then they hug you, and then it's fine, you know, or whatever needs to be done. So, yeah. For those out there who might be feeling a little jealousy or feel like they need reassurance from their partner. Remember that you can always ask for it.

M: Yeah. And I think sometimes even just saying that I felt a certain way with nothing changing just made me feel better to know that I could always had a safe space to share what I was experiencing and that I always knew that he cared so much about that and wanted to make sure that I felt good. And to have that level of care just made everything feel so safe.

F: Right. Because I'm sure there's also people who, you know, if they express that they're feeling that way, maybe their partners are like: "Why are you so jealous? You are getting too much in your head. You're making all these stories that are not true" or whatever, you know? So it's also not only on the person asking for the reassurance, but the partner providing that space, that safe space for the person to express that and acknowledge and, you know, deal with that together.

M: Yeah, absolutely.

F: Yeah. That's great that you had that. So how long did you see this person for?

M: We didn't really see each other. Our early experiences were, they weren't, like, ongoing situations. It was more like a fun experience there. A fun experience there. We did have another threesome with this person after that, but I think then after that, we didn't anymore. It was just like a more circumstantial thing that happened and was fun when it did. And then, you know, we just evolved into a friendship. Yeah.

F: So after that, what other kinds of experiences did you have? So after that, we had a couple of other friends that we had, again, not, like, ongoing situations, but a few fun experiences with a couple of different friends in. And this is, like, spaced out over the course of many months, I think we weren't super actively seeking. It was more like when there was a dynamic that felt flirty or it felt like: "Oh, okay, this has a potential". Like: "There's something happening here". It's clear that we're all kind of giving each other some kind of attention or that there's a vibe happening here or whatever. Then when that happened, I think we would go down that road, but it wasn't like we were actively seeking it out, if that makes sense.

F: Yeah, that makes total sense. And you also mentioned that at first you were shy in approaching people.

M: Yeah. The shyness, at some point in 2021, I think, is when I kind of started to feel more comfortable and more empowered to just, like, speak desires out and be like: "Hey, this is something that I'm interested in. Like, what do you think?" Which was a really cool thing to finally feel like. I could do. And I wasn't, like, hiding behind Brad because he has just so much more of an ease and, like, a directness with this kind of thing that, you know, that I just didn't have or didn't feel that I had.

F: Yeah. Now that you're saying that, it just makes me think what happens when there's two hot people like you and Brad, but you are both shy. Like, let's say you were both shy. I'm sure there's, like, couples out there. I'm sure people would be interested in them or whatever, but maybe they're both shy and they're both can't actually make the step to, like, ask someone or, like, whatever. But what created that shift in you?

M: Honestly, Brad was a huge part of that for me. Like, just really encouraging me to own my desires and own what I wanted and to feel comfortable speaking that out into the world. I learned a lot about that from him. And also just, like, my own process with hypnosis and with all of these tools that I mentioned kind of at the beginning of my own discovery of really coming into my power and really feeling empowered, for lack of a better term, to use my voice and just own who I am and what I want and to not feel like I needed to be apologetic or shy about that.

I think that was just a process of personal growth and discovery, and that really led to a lot of shifts, not just sexually, but in, like, so many areas of my life.

F: Yeah, that's great that you've done that work. But for those people who might still be working on it, do you have any tips as to how to ask for what you want in this sort of situation?

M: I think, you know, one, you have to be willing to put yourself into a vulnerable place. It's always vulnerable when you do this, right? You don't know how the other person is going to respond. And so I think that's one thing. It's just like being comfortable in the discomfort of vulnerability and just being willing to have that interaction anyway. And, you know, I think what helped for me was also knowing that if I was approaching someone, it was someone who I had a lot of respect and love for or just, like, knew and I felt safe with and was able to kind of, like, just come into a more, like, flirty, playful place with that person and just, like, lean in, lean into the discomfort.

And I think, yeah, I think it's a matter of just kind of doing it, so to speak, like, acknowledging that there might be some, like, insecurity or, like, fear around it. But just, like, starting it as a conversation, even, it can be like: "Hey, this, you know, like, I am curious about you in this way. Like, no pressure at all, you know, maybe you don't want to cross that boundary with me, but, like, what do you think? Like, is that is that something that you're interested in?" or finding a way to just open it up to have a conversation that doesn't have to be a scary thing. It can just be like: "Hey, this is what I'm feeling. What do you think?"

F: Yes. We complicated so much in our heads, right?

M: Yeah, we complicated a lot. And I think that if you're able to just be honest, open it up, see what that person says, and also feel into it. Of course, I only did this with someone that I could feel that maybe there was that energy being reciprocated or you kind of feel into it intuitively. Like, is there something here? Okay, I think that there is. Let's start that conversation.

F: Yeah, for sure. And was there ever a conversation with Brad about maybe you also seeing men? Because, of course, in your case, you decided that you wanted to do some things together. But, you know, even if Brad doesn't want to interact with another man, you could still have a threesome with another man. Right? Like, there was more focus on them interacting with you and you interacting with them. So I don't know if you ever had a conversation around that.

M: Yeah, we did. And I was more interested in having separate experiences than he necessarily was. And I think we kind of talked about taking steps to move in that direction. So starting to have these shared experiences was a way to build trust and kind of slowly push that boundary and not go from zero to 100. But then what was funny was that when we had talked about maybe me having my own experiences with men, we had talked about: "Okay, maybe first we have a shared experience with another man, and, like, let's see how that goes, and, like, take it from there".

But part of this was, like, this was the part of, like, me feeling more confident and empowered to, like, make these situations happen and not always relying on Brad to make it happen. And so part of the agreement was like, let's do that. But the deal is that you have to initiate this if you want this.

I want you to feel, like, empowered to get that for yourself and to make it happen. And so there were some kind of potential situations that had arisen, but because of my shyness at the time, I kind of never pulled the trigger on it. And it was always, like, a finding an excuse or, like: "Oh, well, maybe now is not the right time". And I think it took, you know, in many ways.

Like, I wasn't able to have those uncomfortable conversations at that time when push came to shove. Like, I just didn't make it happen. And so it really took a long time of being in that process, if that makes sense.

F: Yeah, that's so interesting.I think it's really awesome that he pushed you in that way to feel empowered and that it seems like it did help you in that journey. So I want to move on to talking about your relationship with Lola, because when I met you, I remember you, Brad and Lola, like, sharing rooms at the getaway weekends or festivals or whatever we were organizing. And I don't know much about your relationship with her. I just know that it seemed to be something really special and something that not only the three of you had together, but that you had with her and she had with Brad.

So, yeah, I'm just curious how all started?

M: Yeah. So after Brad and I had had these experiences that I mentioned were a bit more like one off or here and there, we had both talked about how it would be nice to actually get to develop a little bit more of a relationship with someone, because I think also when you have more of that shared connection with someone, it also creates more intimacy and allows for more of an exploration versus just these one off experiences here and there. And we both thought that that would be a really fun path to go down, to be able to not just, like, randomly sleep with people. And not that it was random. It never was. But you know what I mean? Instead of having these one offs, having something that we could develop a little bit more and develop a relationship and go on fun dates and just get to explore a new chapter of this non-monogamy kind of exploration. So we had talked about that. It was something that we had, like, in the back of our minds. And when I met Lola, I remember, you know, being like: "Oh, this girl is so cool". Like, really connecting with her and just really liking her vibe and obviously thinking that she was so beautiful and, like, being attracted to her and everything.

And I think it was actually one of the first times that I was the one who started flirting with someone that. And it wasn't just, like, Brad doing this thing for us. Like, I remember being like: "Hey, babe, like, I was flirting with this girl. You would have been so proud of me". Just this little cute thing that we had back and forth, because it wasn't really typically me who was doing that. So we had met. It was in the fall of 2019. And her and I talked about having a one on one. We, you know, she came over. We, like, hung out.

And I remember at the time, she kind of mentioned that, like, she was a little bit overwhelmed because she was, like, new. And I think that she had been approached by a lot of people. And so I remember when she said that, I was like: "Oh, okay. I don't want to just be, like, another person that's, like, approaching her in this way". So instead, I was like, I am definitely interested. And I hadn't said anything. I hadn't said any of this yet, but I was like, maybe for now, I can just become her friend and get to know her more.

And there can be a flirtation, but I don't want to just be another person who's approaching her in this way. So we started a friendship, and I remember hanging out, and then Brad and I had talked about it, and so he started hanging out with her, too, and flirting. And I remember I shared this concern with him. I was like, I don't want her to think that we're just, like, trying to sleep with her because we also wanted to get to know her and thought she was awesome. And then I was going away. Like, I don't remember where I was going, but I was going to be out of town for, like, I think, like, a month or something. And during that time, Brad had talked about, like, kind of, like, connecting with her while I was away and kind of, like, flirting with her and seeing if there was anything there. And we were in agreement that that was good.

F: Did she tell you whether she was into women? Did she know you guys were open?

M: We talked about it. In that first conversation that we had, we had talked about, like, relationships and interests and dynamics and things like that. So I think at that time, I had mentioned that Brad and I were what we used to call ourselves, like, monogamish. So we weren't, like, fully open, but we also were not-monogamous. So she knew that. And I think she had shared some of her own experiences with me, so I knew that she was interested in women, and, you know, there was, like, a flirtation there, but I wanted to be careful about that, and, yeah.

So then when I left, Brad and her, like, started hanging out more, and they were, like, working on a project together. I remember that he was kind of keeping me up to date on how it was evolving, and he was like: "Yeah, okay. I was flirting a little bit more, and it seemed like it was well received" and, you know, he was feeling into it. And he could feel that there was an interest as well.

F: What was this project?

M: So Brad had had this idea for our house. I lived in this apartment with, it was four of us, and we called ourselves "The Queens of Heart" because we lived on Heart street. And Brad had this idea for a house warming gift that he had had for, like, a year, but he couldn't find anyone who knew how to execute on the idea. So he had never done it, but he had never told me. He's like, I'm not gonna tell you what the idea is because I'm hoping that one day I'm gonna meet someone who can, like, make this thing happen. And the idea was to create this disco unicorn. So, like, instead of, like, a disco ball, but, like, a disco unicorn. And so him and Lola. So he had, like, mentioned this to her, and she was like: "I actually know how to make, I actually know how to make that. Like, I can do it". And so they worked on this while I was away. And I think it was, like, a really cute and fun way for them to, like, also build more of a friendship and a flirtation and have, like, something to work on together.

F: Yeah. Actually, this reminds me, the first time I went to one of the events, the summer CAMP I mentioned. I remember Lola made a hat for Brad. Like, on the spot. Yes. Like, we were at a pool party. I was around also crafting, I think. And, yeah, she made this really awesome hat for him in, like, five minutes. It was incredible.

M: Yeah, she's very, very crafty and just a wizard of creating beautiful things. Yeah. So that was how that started. And then I remember Brad basically, like, in a way, like, just being upfront. He's like: "Hey, Marcela and I are really interested". And she was like: "Yeah, I'm interested, too".

F: After a while of courtship.

M: After a while of courtship.

F: Like, how long?

M: I'd say that this happened over the course of, like, three or four months. We had all done, like, an acro class together. We had had some group hangouts while I was there, and then they had had the hangouts while I was away. And then it was New Year's was approaching, and so we were doing another house, you know, and that was finally when, you know, we, like, actually all shared an experience together and that.

And, you know, and there was so much chemistry and attraction, and it was so fun, and, like, finally took it out of this long courtship. And it was clear that there was a really good dynamic between the three of us. So that was the beginning of that story.

F: And what's the middle of this story?

M: So then we talked about asking her if she wanted to go on a date. We were like, okay. That was awesome and fun and so cool, and, like, why don't we see if we all go on a date and just see how it goes? It was very much a like, let's just take one step at a time and see how it goes. What was really fun about it was that Lola and I planned this date for Brad. So we, like, we're like: "Okay, like, let's plan a whole evening together". We planned to, like, pick him up from his place and, like, show up with flowers and, like, had planned, like, a whole evening for him. And that was super fun. It was, like, so fun to, like, get to work together on that and.

F: You guys got him flowers?

M: Yeah, we got him flowers. Yeah. Picked him up and took him on this, like, really lovely date, and it was just so fun. It was so, like, natural in a way.

F: What did you guys do?

M: We went to dinner. We picked this really cute spot and had dinner and drinks, and then we went to a jazz show in Brooklyn. So we went to the show, and it was really good. And then we all went home together. And I remember it feeling, like, just easy and natural and fun. Like, you know, I was worried, like: "Is it going to be weird? I had never done this before. I had never gone on a date with another person". I just was, like, so pleasantly surprised by just how fun and playful and easy and nice it was.

The whole thing, and one thing just led to another, and we developed this beautiful relationship with her that was so full of just, like, yeah, fun play, discovery, planning fun dates, going on these little adventures together, and also just the way that she was able to show up with so much respect for the relationship, with so much care. To bring someone so close and intimately into your relationship is a scary thing. It's a vulnerable thing. And I was always so impressed with her ability to just do it in a way that made us both feel really seen and cared for and with so much respect. So that was really important, and it established the safety for us to have this exploration and to go into a deeper kind of relationship.

F: That's awesome. Did she have any, I mean, you mentioned that she had some sort of experiences with women, but had she dated a couple? Like, proper, or was she also, like, new, but had this higher awareness of the importance of keeping the couple feeling respected?

M: She had not dated a couple before, so it was a first time for all of us, which I think also made it really exciting. Right? Because we were all like: "We've never done this before. Like, let's learn along the way. Let's just have a lot of communication". And we made sure to have check ins along the way to see how everyone was feeling and make sure that, like, everyone was feeling, like, good and taken care of.

And so there was just, like, so much communication and, like, care that went into it, and that allowed it to always feel like it was happening from this very, like, open, transparent, kind of, like, beautiful space of just sharing a lot of intimacy and navigating it together.

F: That's awesome. Did you ever worry that the relationship of Brad and Lola might kind of override your relationship? Or did you ever feel left out? Or did you ever have any fears that any of that could happen? Because, as you mentioned, you brought her in in a way that was very intimate. And, you know, Brad and Lola had their own connection. So was there any fear around that? Or did Brad have any fear that, you know: "Marcela is gonna leave me for Lola" or whatever?

M: So, of course, there's always gonna be some fear and jealousy that comes up when you're opening up in this way. Cause it is a risk. You know, it's a calculated risk, but I risk nonetheless. When you are involving another person, you just don't know. You can't control emotions or how things evolve. But, you know, with Brad and I, things felt so solid and so good between us. Like, we've always had such amazing communication and an ability to just navigate things from a place of just, like, so much honesty.

Like, I always knew that if anything came up, I was gonna. We were gonna be able to work through it and to talk through it and that nothing was gonna be hidden. There weren't gonna be, like, lies or anything that feels kind of like happening behind the surface or beneath the surface. So, like, just knowing that made me feel really good. And, you know, when we set out on this whole journey, we always said, like: "Our number one priority is our relationship and making sure that that's solid and that we're good.

And these experiences are, like, in addition to us as a couple". And so, like, also knowing that we had set that boundary and that we were in a really good place allowed any moments that did come up of jealousy, which there weren't that many. But it did happen sometimes where, you know, just, again, little things of, like, maybe feeling like I wasn't receiving as much attention as I maybe was going to make me feel safe. Like, that I wasn't being forgotten about or that there was more excitement about her than for me these little things that can kind of show up in these microwaves.

And whenever that did happen, it was just a matter of saying: "Hey, I felt this thing. Maybe next time you can make sure you're checking in with me" or just little micro adjustments. That, and it really never became, like, a big thing. It was always, like, instances here and there, like, maybe I felt a little jealous, maybe I felt a little insecure and just a lot of check ins along the way, a lot of communication all the time of just making sure, like, checking in again and again. And, you know, it did require a lot of communication. And it really helped us grow also so much as a couple, because we had to learn to communicate through everything. And just knowing that you can do that with your partner, that there's nothing you can't talk about, and that you always know that you're going to bring so much care for the other person into it allowed us to grow in a really unexpected way Like, it was almost like a welcomed surprise or different side of a benefit that we got or a growth that we got from this open exploration.

F: Yeah, I hear that a lot. And I don't think that people really understand how much just exploring being open, can just bring you together. And, I mean, I don't think that you should do it for that reason, but, yeah, I mean, when you have to, like, step in, into your vulnerability and really express how you feel and really think about how the other person is going to feel, it translates into other aspects. Not just dating other people, but whatever decision you make, you know, you have this awareness of how important it's to check in and how important it is to voice what you feel and. Yeah, I'm glad that sounds like you had an awesome experience. I do know that, or I think that you guys are not having that dynamic anymore. So how, how did that end?

M: Yeah, so I would say that the relationship between the three of us went on for about a year and a half. And around that time, things just started to kind of shift in where actually Brad and Lola developed more of their own dynamic and their own relationship. And, you know, my relationship with her turned into one more of just friendship. You know, there was just like a shift that happened in the relationship, which, you know, happens.

F: Because before that, you guys would meet up, just the two of you, and be sexual and all of that, but then at some point, it just didn't feel right?

M: Most of our experiences were actually shared. Her and I did have a few on our own. And actually part of the agreement in the beginning was that they would not have their own sexual experiences without me at the beginning, just while we were establishing that safety. And I think that actually maybe lasted for, like, a a year or so. I don't remember the timeline exactly, but that was an agreement that we started with. And then at some point, I was like, okay, I feel comfortable. Like, we don't need this boundary anymore. Like, now we're at a place where I feel so safe and comfortable in this that, like, they also just started to develop, like, their own dynamic, their own, like, special relationship and their own intimacy.

And so that happened at around the time that, like, the three of us were kind of, like, fizzling out as, like, one shared, like, unit. And then it kind of developed in that way where then he and her had their kind of, like, their own dynamic that went on for a while, and her and I just continued with more of just a friendship. And then, you know, then that went on with them for a while, and Brad and I actually had, like, taken a break in our relationship at the end of last year or in, like, the fall. And so, you know, then everything kind of shifted where they, you know, kind of impacted them a little bit, but then they also continued, and now their relationship is one of, you know, there still is an intimacy there and a shared friendship and everything, but I think that kind of stage of the relationship where it was more, like, active in that way, has also kind of shifted into something that's different now. So it went through, I guess, various phases, if that makes sense.

F: Yeah, I think that it's great that you were able to just be, like, whatever made sense or whatever felt right and whatever was organic, as opposed to being like: "Oh, this is saying something about me". Right? Like, I feel like other people could get if, for whatever reason, the relationship started to change in a way that you weren't part of their dynamic anymore, other people could have been like: "Oh, this is about me. They are excluding me. This is saying that I'm not worthy of their love" or whatever, you know?

And I think it's great that you were able to be like: "No, I mean, it just doesn't feel right, right now to be the three of us, but it feels right for them to be the two of us, and that's fine. And that doesn't say anything about me or myself worth" or I don't know, or maybe you did have a little bit of that, but maybe you were able to work through it. I don't know what your process was.

M: No, what you're saying is right. It was kind of like the three of us, you know, it's not feeling quite right anymore in the way that it did. It's transitioning into something else and just allowing that transition to happen. Like, it was just, you know, kind of like a shift in the relationship. But then being like, if you two still have this, like, special connection with each other, like, you should totally continue to explore that. And because we already had such a history of, like, building toward this place of trust and respect and admiration for all of the people involved, you know, it felt like kind of almost like an easy. I don't want to say easy, but, like, it felt like, yeah, this feels safe. Like, this feels safe.

F: Right. Because you knew that they wouldn't betray you, whatever that might mean.

M: Exactly.

F: You know, that they were, you know, looking after your feelings and respecting you and respecting and again, as you said, Lola, from the beginning, was always very respecting.

M: Yeah. And even during this time, she was, you know, we were really communicative with each other. Like, she was really communicative with me and, like, checked in with me. Like: "How do you feel about this? Does this feel okay?"

And so I think just, like, continuing to have that conversation, even when I wasn't, like, involved in the dynamic as much anymore, that communication still continued.

F: Yeah. So putting Lola aside, I know that you and Brad are going through a process of decoupling. So before, you know, I ask you how you got to that point, what does decoupling actually mean to you? Because I feel like that's a term that's thrown around, and it might mean different things for different people. So what does that mean to you and Brad?

M: Yeah. So when we decided to go through this process, you know, we didn't even know what to call it. We were like: "Okay. We reached a point in our relationship where we had kind of been grappling with somethings for sometime". And there was almost, like, these loops of these issues we kind of kept coming back to. And taking our break was like an attempt to maybe find some more clarity about that. And I think, in retrospect, we probably ended that a little prematurely. I think we were at these crossroads where I was no longer feeling that happy in New York. And I kind of wanted to leave and explore a new chapter, a new life. And Brad was really creating his life here with events and things and so just some stuff around, different life direction things, and not really being sure that we were going to be able to bridge those gaps.

There were so many stressors and so many things that were, like, really affecting him and that he was bringing that into the relationship. And there was, like, my own s*** that I was doing as well. But, you know, for whatever reason, around New Year's, like, we had a check in again, and it was just clear that we both felt like we're spending so much time processing and trying to kind of fix things and tweak things, and this just. It feels like we're not really making each other happy right now, and we just need to be present with that and own that and acknowledge what's happening and what do we do with that now? And this was done from a place of so much love. There's always been so much love between us. It never felt, like, full of tension or anger or anything like that.

I think there was just a recognition that while we still really loved each other, things were just not working, and we needed to accept that.

And so we didn't want to have, like, a breakup or what called, like, you know, what I guess is traditionally thought of as, like, a breakup where we were just, like, cutting each other out of our lives and going in separate directions for many reasons, I think because there was still so much love there, and we're so important for each other, and we wanted to find a way to, like, transition out of the partnership that we were having, but to be able to still find space for each other.

And we also kind of said, like, you know, maybe if we actually release each other and go through our own processes, maybe that will lead us back to each other. Like, we don't know. And so, like, kind of approaching it in a little bit more of an open ended way. I was like, I don't want to just do this the way that anybody does it.

I want to do it in a way that makes sense for us, and we might not do it perfectly. And that's okay. We'll figure it out. And if we continue to do it from a place of love and respect, we'll figure it out, and it will all be what it is meant to be. So, you know, we ended up kind of doing our own travels during this time, and we stayed in contact sometimes more than others, but we kind of both went on our own healing journeys that included, like, retreats and, like, we both did, like, meditation retreats, and we both, like, kind of really dove into, like, our own practices. And it was incredibly rewarding and beautiful and fruitful and obviously, like, devastating, too, like, so much grief.

F: Right? Because at this point, how long have you or had you guys been together at this point? It was, like, four years of partnership with someone who I have grown so much with. And our lives completely changed with each other. Like, I don't know where I would be without him if I hadn't met him, if I hadn't had our partnership. Like, just the ways in which we have helped each other grow creatively, personally, sexually, like, in so many ways, is so rich and so deep. And so to, like, really sit with the potential loss of that and be present with that was a lot. And then from that place, who do I want to be now? How can I focus on me for a bit and just me, not me in partnership, not me in relationship to anyone else. Just who am I now? And what is it that I want to take away from this time? And I think we were both able to do that in a way that felt huge for the both of us as individual humans in the world dealing with their stuff. And we had kept that door open. Like: "Hey, maybe once we're both back in New York from our respective adventures and travels, maybe we can just reconnect and see how that goes".

And I think what was interesting was, like, I think when you're going through these situations, people kind of want to tell you how you should do your breakup or how you should approach things. Like, you should do it this way or you shouldn't do it that way, or you shouldn't talk that much or whatever. And I think also just trying to honor what it is that we wanted and how we wanted to do it and just do that and learn the lessons along the way. Because regardless, I think we both want to be in each other's lives, and we share, you know, this community of friends. We share a life we share so much. And so also just finding a way to be able to do that.

F: When we're talking about breakups or whatever, when it comes to, like, non-monogamy, people always wonder, like: "Oh, is it because of the openness" or whatever? So I think that it's important that we address that in some way.

M: You know, in so many ways. Like, our exploration and non-monogamy actually made our relationship so much stronger and allowed us to grow so much as a couple. One of the ways in which it may have been a source of just different opinions about how to do it was that I kind of did want more openness in having experiences outside of their relationship as the next step of having more of these shared experiences. And I think toward the end, there was of more of an openness and a willingness to kind of go there. It just. It did take a while to get there, and a lot of, like, building safety and building trust. So we weren't always on the same page about, like, the pace at which we wanted that to be happening with, but ultimately, that was not, you know, why we decided to end our relationship.

F: Yeah, you mentioned that you just wanted to kind of do your own thing and then learn the lessons along the way. Again, I agree with you that everyone's process is different, but I know a lot of people right now are breaking up or decoupling or there's, like, a lot of shifts happening. I think partly because of COVID we see a lot of breakups around, I think, not only in our community, but I think, in general. So is there any lessons there that you think others might find helpful when it comes to that shift in relationship?

M: I think being willing to admit when it's not working anymore, and that takes a lot of courage, because it's not the easy choice, and it means surrendering a lot of the things that you thought about how your life was gonna look or who you're gonna share it with.

F: Yeah, it's kind of like an identity crisis.

M: Absolutely. And just being willing to, like, even have that initial, like, both coming to terms with that, really listen to yourself and listen to your gut and listen to, like, what your body is telling you. And it's a process. Like, it's. We're humans. Maybe some people are in that for a really long time before they're willing able, you know, before they're able to admit.

Throughout our relationship, we had these check ins that we would do. And I think that was also really important because it gave us a space and set a container from which we could check in. Like: "Hey, this thing that we've been saying that we're working on, have we made any progress? Is this still an issue for us? Do we feel better about it? Do we not?" And having those check ins along the way, I think, also was almost like, this barometer.

F: Yeah, I also have a check in. I don't know how often yours was. Every two weeks. Seth and I just talk, and sometimes, like, it's like we have nothing. You know? Sometimes it's like: "Oh, you know, remember to close the shower curtain" or whatever. You know? Like, sometimes it's, like, really silly stuff, but it allows us to have a moment in which we're both, like, ready to receive whatever criticism might come and think about how we're gonna say it, as opposed to, like, in the moment, just being, like, p***** stuff about something and then just saying something when the person is not ready to receive it.

So for listeners out there, highly recommend it, even if it's not every two weeks, like once a month, once a week, whatever works for you. But I think that it's a, it's a good practice.

M: And I think that point you made is so important about someone being in a space to receive feedback, because I think that was a learning that we had. You know, it's definitely something I did along the way where sometimes I was just feeling some in the moment and I was like: "Hey, I'm feeling this thing". And then maybe he would feel like he was being attacked because he just didn't even know that I was going to share this thing. And it's like that could have been handled in such a better way.

So just having a space to talk about things that are coming up and within that space, also setting certain guidelines: "Okay. We're both acknowledging that anything that we bring up during this time is for the benefit of our relationship. And we'll do our best to receive it with an open mind." And just setting that context to have a productive conversation versus finger pointing or blaming or doing things that might just feel insightful instead of feeling like it's helpful for the relationship.

F: Yeah, definitely. So where are you and Brad standing now? Like, what's the situation now you're both back in New York. How is that process going?

M: Yeah, so we are, you know, talking again and kind of reconnecting. And it's an open question. Like, we certainly don't plan to, like, rush back into any kind of relationship, even if that's something that we felt we wanted to do. Like, we would take our time to get there and make sure it's the right choice. So for now, we're just, like, reconnecting and spending time and just seeing how that feels after a very transformational last few months of both of our lives, in many respects, not just in our relationship, but I think a lot of things were shifting for both of us. And so it's been really interesting and, like, nice to kind of almost like, re meet each other as in some ways, like new people in that trying to be aware, like, not fall back into an old pattern. And so, yeah, that's where the story is right now. And we'll see how it evolves. But just taking it step by step and, yeah, figuring it out along the way.

F: Thank you so much for sharing all of your journey with me. I feel like I finally can make peace with understanding what's going on because as I mentioned, I got these little glimpses here and there of, like, you know, not just your relationship with Lola, but kind of like, what you were going through. Like, oh, now it seems like they're decoupling or waking up, but had, you know, no context. Or, like, when I met you and when I, when you were with Lola, I was like: "Oh, what, what is this relationship like?" A lot of, I had a lot of questions around, around this. So thank you so much for being open with me and for being open with the listeners and, and with all of this journey that you've been through and all of this self awareness that I can see that you have.

What would you tell to a polycurious person that might be listening? And what piece of advice do you wish that you had starting your journey or something that you learned along the way that you feel might be helpful to other people?

M: Yeah. And thank you so much for having me. It's been so fun to have this conversation with you. I would say that there are no rules about relationships. You know, like, if you have a curiosity, I think it's important to follow those things. I think that often when we do follow these curiosities, it leads to really rewarding and enriching situations or explorations that teach us a lot about who we are. And I don't know, just, like, make our lives full of meaning and growth opportunities. So I feel like one. Just being willing to be really honest, to have a lot of open and vulnerable and raw conversations with whoever you're doing this exploration with.

If it's with a partner, if you're doing it with a couple, if you're on the other end of that spectrum and you're the single person who's exploring with someone else, communication is so important. Respect and just being able to, like, yeah, own what you're feeling and be honest about that. And I think that with that communication and with that honesty, you can really navigate any situation and learn a lot from it. I know it's been so beautiful for me, and I would never trade any of those experiences. So, yeah, I would say follow your curiosity.

F: I love it. Thank you so much, Marcela.

M: Thank you.

F: Thank you guys so much for tuning in today. I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Marcela as much as I did.