Jeshua: Whenever I come back from a date like that, this is usually how it goes. I'm like: “I have such a crush on this person. I'm so excited”. And Ari's like: "Oh, I'm so excited for you". And then I think probably half the time, she's like: "I actually have a crush on them too".

Ari: I think probably every time.

J: Almost every time.

Fernanda: Hi, everyone. I am Fernanda or Fer for short, and this is Polycurious. Today's episode might be actually one of my favorites of the season because our guests have a very flexible relationship that allows for a lot of exploration. And even if you and your partner don't have this type of relationship, I feel like there's still a lot to learn from them. So today I am speaking with Ari and Jeshua, a polyamorous couple that has been together for two and a half years.

And in our conversation, we talk about their journey from being polycurious to becoming polyamorous. We talk about their experiences dating people together and separately finding a polyamorous community, and how that led Jeshua to embrace his bisexual side. We talk about all the things that they are gaining from their relationship, including learning and growing from secondary relationships, having feelings of compersion, and exploring their sexuality. And we have a very interesting conversation about getting more comfortable in expressing to your primary the feelings that you might be having for someone else. I can't wait to hear what you guys might have to say about this episode. And we really do cover a lot.

So here's my interview with Ari and Jeshua.

F: Welcome, Ari and Jeshua, my neighbors, which is amazing. Like, I had never had the chance to just walk a few steps and be already at the interview. I met you guys through common friends who just realized you guys also lived in the building. And I think we've met once before at this gathering we had, and you guys just kind of popped in, and it was really nice to meet you and learn that you were non-monogamous as well. But besides that, I don't really know anything about your journey, so I can't wait to dive in.

J: Sideboard.

A: Yeah.

J: You get to know us at the same time as we get to be on the interview.

F: Exactly. So why don't we start by just learning a little bit more about yourselves? What do you guys do? How old are you? When did you guys meet? How long have you been together? So many questions already.

J: Yeah, well, I'm Jeshua and I'm 35. What do I do? I do a lot of different things. My main profession is in machine learning, engineering in the tech world. And also I teach at city college, teach machine learning. And I also do a lot of. Put a lot of time into sketch comedy. I just recently did a sketch comedy show, so my hands are in a bunch of different things right now, but... And this summer I'm working on a film version of that sketch comedy show. Yeah. So that's a bit about me.

F: So you directed that?

J: Yeah, I wrote and directed it.

F: Oh, that's amazing. That's awesome. Yeah, I wrote and directed a play in college. Obviously, I'm sure that not as good as your comedy sketch, but you're saying that now you're gonna, it's gonna be made.

J: Film version that I'll release online. Yeah.

F: Oh, my God.

J: That's my main project right now.

F: Oh, wow, fun! That sounds amazing. Congrats.

J: Thank you.

A: Hi, my name is Ari. I'm 31. I'm a physician assistant. I work in transplant medicine. Yeah. And currently trying to start a uterus transplant program, which is, like, my professional goal right now.

F: Amazing. Amazing. And before we go into maybe when you guys learned about non-monogamy, how long have you guys been together and how did you guys meet?

J: About two and a half years now. Yeah.

A: Yeah. And we met on Feeld.

F: Okay, cool.

J: Yeah.

F: Feeld is an app. I've never actually used it, but it's cool that you tell your sexual preferences. Right?

J: And most people on it are non-monogamous in some way, I'd say.

A: Yeah, it's definitely for a lot more poly, non-monogamous people and people.

J: And queer people.

A: Yeah.

J: Queer people in there.

F: Yeah.

J: Yeah.

F: Well, great resource for those out there looking for alternative dating apps.

J: Yeah. I got really lucky. Ari was the first person I went on a date with from Feeld.

F: Oh, wow.

J: I got so lucky. I had, like, originally gotten on it because I was seeing someone else who was poly, and she recommended trying out Feeld, and it just went so well. It was right before the pandemic too.

F: Awesome. What date number was Jeshua for you, Ari?

A: Oh, my God. There are a lot of people on Feeld. I actually was on Feeld before it became Feeld. It used to be something called, like, 3nder, and it was just for, like, finding threesomes, basically.

F: Oh, really?

A: Yeah. And then it morphed into Feeld.

F: Okay.

J: Tinder sued them or something like that.

A: Yeah.

F: Really?

A: Yeah, I'd been on there for a while.

J: Yeah.

F: So obviously you were already in the scene. How did you come across this world?

A: I'd been in this world for, when I met Jesh, probably, like, close to five years. I was in the kink scene for a while and going to play parties and things and just kind of, that was my first introduction. Somebody I went on a date with invited me to one of those kind of open play parties, and I just didn't play and just talked to people the entire night and learned I had no idea that polyamory or non-monogamy was a thing. Never even heard of it. And that was just down the rabbit hole for me, of just exploring all of the possibilities and the whole spectrum of casual dating to trying to be fully poly and everything in between. And I had no idea that any of it existed and just kind of exploring what all of that was.

F: And what do you think was what attracted you to that world?

A: Just the freedom of it. I always felt wrong in a monogamous relationship. I always had been attracted to other people. I never cheated on somebody in my relationships, but always wanted to and always felt like: "What's wrong with me? Why am I attracted to all these people? Isn't my partner enough?" And just always felt like I was a terrible person and then would have to end my relationship. And they would be like: "Why? This relationship is going so well". And I'm like: "I know, but everyone else is awesome, too." So that was so freeing to me of, like, wow, everyone is a possibility of, like, you don't have to limit yourself to one person, and there's so many incredible people in this city alone.

F: And how did you navigate that period? Like, going to play parties and I assume, like, kind of dating different people? Were these people always from the play scene, or were there people that you had to kind of, like, explain, like: "Hey, you know, I'm seeing other people" because especially recently, I've had a lot of people asking about solo-poly, like, how do you date when you don't have a partner, but you also don't want a partner necessarily, or don't want a monogamous partner? How do you, like, express that to other people? You know.

A: It's really hard. I didn't have the terms at the time for what I was doing, so I was kind of just, like, flying blind, and I was actually just talking to Jesh about this recently. I was like, it was really hard to. I didn't want a serious partner at the time, and I just wanted to explore all of this. And I definitely did not do a good job at it because I definitely... There were a few people who I got closer to and then had to sort of pump the brakes or end things because they wanted more than I could give them, but I didn't have the vocabulary at the time to be like: "No, I want to be solo poly and don't want a serious partner right now".

So definitely did not do a good job managing that. But over time, I met more people who had the vocabulary and the communication skills that I think I definitely needed. I mean, I was young.

F: How long ago was these?

A: It was probably, like, seven years ago now. But, yeah, I think just exploring through meeting people and seeing the different types of relationships that were available and, like, how people navigated those lives is kind of how I figured out what I wanted. I didn't figure it out until kind of right before I met Jesh, of, like: "This is, oh, this is the kind of relationship that I want". So it took a while.

F: Yeah. Sometimes you don't know until you experience it. Right? Like, I think for me, before I started seeing Seth, even though he's monogamous, you know, I was like: "Oh, I think I want, like, a polyamorous relationship, or try". Try that, you know? And then I was like: "Well, I think at this point, I think I just want, like, friends with benefits, you know?" I don't know if, like, maybe one of those friends will become more than just a friend, but you don't really know until you actually experience it.

A: Yeah. Especially for a long time, I was joining a lot of couples and how they navigated those spaces, and I think those were a lot of really interesting scenarios of watching what worked and what didn't for a lot of people and just the options and also how things went poorly with, like, bad communication.

F: Right. You have those examples of the healthy and unhealthy couples and... Yeah. And how did you navigate that? I mean, well, first of all, why were you so interested in dating couples?

A: It was just kind of fun. It sort of happened. I met one couple and dated them for a while, and then eventually things got a little messy and ended things, and then it just kind of met another. There's a lot of couples looking for women.

F: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

A: And it was kind of just, like, a fun. You're almost like you're entering someone else's life, like, to join two people who have, like, a fully formed relationship and kind of, like, stepping into this new world and, like, kind of being a spectator of, like, how their relationship works and what they do well and what they don't do well, and. And it was kind of fun.

F: Yeah, no, for sure. I totally understand, but I was just curious how you got into that. But for people who might be, like, dating couples, because you mentioned some of the couples were more healthy than the others. What do you think? Are some of, like, maybe red flags that some people who are, like, secondary partners to couples might want to watch out for?

A: Just making sure everything is very open communication. I always really liked the couples that put the three of us in a group text, and that was it. There was never any side texting. It all felt kind of out in the open and just setting the ground rules for exactly what they were comfortable for, what the expectations were. If somebody doesn't feel comfortable about talking about boundaries or expectations, I feel like that's not a great sign that they don't exactly know what they want, which I feel like is setting you up for a possible disaster.

F: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. So you mentioned that you, even before you met Jeshua, you weren't exactly sure of what you wanted. Like, where were you at that point in your journey in terms of what you thought you wanted?

A: I thought I was just gonna be, like, solo-poly and not have a serious partner and didn't want anything tethering me down. Then that switched.

F: Yeah. Where were you at in your journey? Jeshua, you said she was the first person you dated on Feeld, but did you have any experiences in non-monogamy before?

J: Yeah, I had been exposed to non-monogamy maybe a year and a half before I met Ari. I was dating someone who was poly and had a serious boyfriend, and that was, like, really eye opening into what this could be like. And it sort of started to click for me that that was what I wanted, seeing how it worked for her and how I was thinking about all of my past monogamous relationships, of how I felt the same thing, of just, like, never feeling totally satisfied, always wanting to, like, flirt with other people, always wanting to just get to know other people in other ways, and feeling really just not fully living the life that I wanted to live in monogamous relationships. And I had seen it with this partner. I just sort of took her advice. My partner's advice of, like: "You should meet someone who's poly and explore this. This is what you probably want". And so I kind of just took her advice on that.

F: And she picked up on that because you were enjoying.

J: I think, because of how easy it was for me also, and how much I wanted it. Just the navigating jealousy and all of that was really easy for me from the beginning, and I think it was just now that I've been fully in it, I realize that it is very natural for me that it's been quite easy and has made so much sense, and I think she saw that because she had dated a lot of people. And I think seeing. Seeing that what I wanted was pretty clear to her. So I was really appreciative of her kind of giving me that advice and pushing me in that direction. I was also in the same mode as Ari at the time, where I was kind of like, I'm new to this. I want to explore. I don't want a serious relationship. And then I just met Ari, and it just really, really clicked.

And there was a great benefit of the pandemic in there, and that we got together and had a really great immediate connection. And then three months in, the pandemic happened, and we were sort of in this forced monogamous relationship. When we were totally locked down. We weren't seeing anyone else. We both had partners separately, but we didn't see them during the height of the beginning of the pandemic, when we were all super cautious. But then I think we both started seeing those partners four or five months in.

F: And when did you guys move in together? Did you move in together, like, because of the pandemic?

J: We actually don't live together.

F: Oh, you guys don't live together. Okay. Okay, interesting. So who's, who's apartment is?

J: It's my apartment.

F: Oh, okay, cool, cool.

J: We spent a lot of time here, though.

A: Yeah, I basically have, I'm a by girl liver [?] Live in Manhattan now, but I'm moving to Brooklyn. I'm moving to Bushwick at the end of the summer.

F: Oh, okay, cool. Yeah. Welcome to the dark side.

A: Yeah, no, I'm excited. Well, like, I'm gonna live here for, like, a year. I've never lived by myself. And then we're gonna move in together.

J: That's. Yeah, that's the plan right now.

F: Yeah. I was wondering because, yeah, it sounded. For a moment, I thought maybe you guys just jumped in, like, moved in together because of the pandemic, because a lot of couples did that, even, like, people who had just met, you know.

J: I and honestly, I think this is one part of just the good relationship we have. And, like, the value of poly for me is I've had some difficult experiences moving in with people quickly in the past, and our relationship's been going so good. And I just sort of communicated, like, I really like how it's been going. I don't want to rush this. I think we have plenty of time. So our plan is kind of this, like, one year out. It's been so easy to communicate that, and I think this is something that's been so good about poly for me and about Ari in general, having taught me really good communication in everything in a relationship.

And it's not even just about dating other people or having sex with other people and communicating about that, but just communicating about my wants and needs in a relationship and being kind of open to having that sort of relationship escalator be something that I have a say in. And I'm putting thought into rather than sort of a falling into this, which is, in all my previous monogamous relationships, it was always this, like, it just felt like this falling. Yeah, like, onto the slide of stairs or something, that it just sort of happened. It sort of just went in some direction that it was supposed to go. And I never really felt like I had control over creating the relationship that I wanted. And now with the communication and good, just being comfortable with saying what I want, and Ari is just always so, like: "Tell me what you need, that's all I want". And I feel very comfortable in expressing those wants. And I've never had that in a relationship before, where I always felt scared of expressing what I really wanted because my partner would get angry at me or misconstrue it as something else.

And in this relationship, I never feel, I've never really felt that way. I don't think even once felt that me communicating something has made things worse. It's always made things better. And I've learned over the last two and a half years of just being much more comfortable after a kind of emotionally difficult monogamous relationship where I think I learned a lot of really bad patterns of communication.

F: Yeah, that's awesome. And it's hard, but it becomes easier as you do it, right when you want to say something like: "Oh, I want to see this other person, or, I don't want what you want from their relationship", or whatever it is, it's like: "Oh, it feels so heavy, and it's, like, so difficult", but you just kind of have to be like: "Okay, just say it" and, like, the moment you do that, first of all, the weight is, like, taken off your shoulders. And second of all, it just becomes easier with time.

You know, it's like a muscle that you have to practice, and it's almost like, unlearning a little bit what we've been taught, which is not necessarily like, don't talk about your feelings, but kind of like, only talk about the feelings that are appropriate for monogamous relationship. Especially talking about desires when they involved other people, can be really hard. Like, telling your partner, like: "I'm really into this other person". Like, that's like, scary to do, you know?

But you have to remember you're not doing anything wrong for being into another person. You know, even though we're conditioned to thinking that you're doing something wrong. Right?

A: Yeah. To, like, kind of, like, almost look out of your partner and be like: "No, I'm not interested in anyone else". Like, no, we all have eyes. Everyone's attractive.

J: And for me, the thing that's been most mind blowing about the positivity of the relationship is the being able to advocate for myself of what I want personally in my life. In a previous monogamous relationship, I remember a moment in which I expressed, I want to go hang out with these friends without you, or, I need more time to myself. And I remember both of those conversations turning into these horrible arguments of: "Oh, you want more time to yourself? Do you not love me?" Da da da da da da. All this, like, horrible things. Or, like: "You don't want me to hang out with your friends. Like, you know, why not? You don't want me around them", when in reality, it's just, I don't want to be in a partnership in which we're joined at the hip.

I like having my own time. I like having independent relationships with friends and realizing that I can advocate for my own boundaries. And the things that I want has made the relationship work so easily. And Ari makes it really. She does this little trick that I would recommend everybody. She just like, at some very regular interval, she's like, relationship check in. Let's talk about stuff out of the blue. And it's just so nice because I just remember never even knowing how to start those conversations in monogamous relationships because it always felt like such a big deal. Like, we have to talk, right?

And she just opens up the communication very regularly, like, maybe like, once a week is like, relationship checking anything you want to talk about. And it's just like: "Okay, this is great". And it's such a simple thing, but it makes such a big difference. Cause it takes off the sort of entry point to start some kind of conversation.

F: Ari, do you do it at points when you feel like you want to say something or when you feel like he might have something to say or just randomly?

A: All three, actually. Sometimes you'll notice something's obviously wrong with your partner or something's bothering you, and that's just an easy way to transition to it instead of: "I have a problem, I need to talk to you about this". And just sometimes in your mind, you think everything's fine, but something may not be fine with your partner, and you're just completely oblivious, which I feel like we all are at times. And I totally stole that from a couple I dated where they did that. And I was like: "I love this". I was like: "This is so great".

F: We have that, but we have it scheduled. Not spontaneous, but it's funny you say that because I literally released an episode today with Marcela. She talks about it, and we talk about it in the episode.

And actually, right before I came here, I had my relationship, which I'm gonna actually start calling it relationship check in. I like that, because now on our calendar is relationship talk, and it sounds very serious. We couldn't come up with something else I'm gonna change it to check in. Relationship check in. And, like, what I was saying in the episode that I released today was that sometimes it's deeper stuff and sometimes it's silly stuff, but it's just good to get it out of the way. Literally, our check in was, like, all good. I love you. We had a great birthday weekend with friends, but I hate it when you shoosh me. You shooshed me the other day, and I'm like, it's my pet peeve. Please don't do that. So sometimes it's just silly stuff like that, and some other times it's like: "Okay, so how are you feeling about this person that you're dating, or how are we doing sexually" or things like that?

But definitely highly recommend the relationship checking whether you do it, like, spontaneously, like you guys do, or you have it, like, scheduled in your calendars.

J: Yeah.

A: And I like it even not just for, like, if something's bothering you or you think something's bothering your partner, it could be positive too. Like, it doesn't just have to be, like, a negative thing.

J: Yeah you do that really well too. Yeah, I think, yeah. Like, in particular the other day, I advocated for myself, saying I, like, needed a night to myself or something like that, which is really hard for me to do. And I remember you just being like: "H***, yeah. Thank you for that". It's just, it felt so good to be like: "Oh, yeah, I did something good, not like I'm doing something wrong".

F: What kind of conversations did you have about the type of relationship that you wanted to have?

J: Yeah, I think the first conversations I remember about it, and I remember them being difficult for me because I was newer to it, was with someone else I was seeing at the beginning of the pandemic, talking to Ari about this person and just expressing that I had feelings for this person. And I remember those first conversations being really hard for me. But then when I brought it up, it was so easy. It's something I shouldn't have been scared of, I remember Ari being like: "Oh, that's great".

F: Yeah, I mean, let's talk about that. I mean, Ari, you had experience in the non-monogamous world, so you were receptive to it. But I think that even people who say they are non-monogamous might not be as receptive to their partner being like: "Okay, I have feelings for someone else". Some couples even have that boundary, which to me is ridiculous because you can't control how you feel about someone. Right? Any tips as to how to say that? And from your perspective, Ari, why do you think you were able to be like: "Oh, that's great, that you have feelings for someone else".

A: I mean, I think there always is If I know Jesh is, like, going off on a date sometimes there'll be, like, a couple seconds of jealousy and then I'll be like: "Wait, no, this person is amazing. And they're having a great time and they're doing x, y or z" and that, like, compersion feeling of like: "Oh, no, this is great. This is awesome". I mean, I think to say, like, I don't feel any jealousy ever. Like, that's irrational, but it's definitely something that I'm like, this is a silly feeling, or this is a feeling I'm having.

And then maybe addressing, why am I feeling like this? And often, if I do ever experience any lingering jealousy, it's often a personal insecurity that is something I want to work on myself for and try and spin it to positive and being like: "Okay, why do I feel like this? Okay, how can I address this?" And how can I work towards fixing something like that? And it's often never my feelings about Jesh or doing anything. It's often generally something about myself, which I think is really interesting. I think just the whole idea of this poly world of just taking the weight off of yourself, of being the whole person for someone else. No one is everything for one person. We have this one partner that we both see, but Jesh also sees them solo. And they're like, this super artsy, creative person.

And it's like, that's their livelihood. They work in puppets, and they're so creative. And it's like, I'm a creative person too, but that's not like my, it's just something I like to do. And Jesh is super creative as well. And for that person, to inspire him and to kind of push him in that creative direction is something that I wouldn't do. So to have other people from, like, all walks of life push you and inspire you in different ways and, like, just open you up to different parts of the world, I think is, like, the best part of this. And, like, to know that somebody can provide that for him where I can't or wouldn't naturally is something that I think is really important to me. And, like, just, like, this whole lifestyle.

J: Yeah, you brought up that person in particular, and, yeah, it was a really special moment, and I actually think that was one of the first, like, one on one dates I went on with someone in that community, and I remember it being this overwhelmingly positive experience where I was like, this person is amazing, and I don't think that I would want to have a primary relationship with them anyway.

But having this experience with them and getting to be inspired by their work and pushed by, you know, her creative dreams and getting to, like, talk through our creative dreams was such a special moment and really pushed me. I think that was one of the moments that really propelled me to make my recent show happen, was having that. And again, I think it's just this beauty of having these relationships that are various levels between friendship and romantic, where I think it might have been harder to have reached that point with a purely non-romantic, non-sexual friend, where we would have pushed each other that same way. I feel like it really allows this type of emotional connection with somebody so deeply because you're allowing yourself to be intimate with them in lots of different ways. And I think that's what's so beautiful about it for me is this ability to get to know so many different people, so many inspiring people, and have many people in your life in a deep way with it just really being a positive force.

F: That's kind of why I'm into non-monogamy, because I like to connect with people in whatever way feels organic and in ways that are fulfilling. And I feel like some people are like: "Well, but then why can't you just have friends? Like, if it really isn't about the sex, why do you need to have sex with these people or be romantic with these people?" And it's just that even if you don't have the sex, just the possibility creates an intimate environment that allows for so much more.

J: You're not putting all these blockers up about what this relationship is going to be with this person. It can be limitless. There's so many possibilities of what it could be.

F: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Thinking like: "Oh, you know, I wouldn't want to be primaries with this person, but I can see how I gain all of these things from my relationship with them". That's great. But has it ever happened to you that, like, because it's happened to me that I'm really into someone, I'm just, like, starting seeing, and that's when that conversation of, like, telling my partner, I really like this person, it's difficult because when it's, like, I'm really into this person, but, like, I'm not as into them as I'm into you or whatever, it's, like, easier. And of course, like, at the end of the day, with this situation that I'm talking about, it was just like, the New Relationship Energy, probably.

J: That's what I was gonna say. Yeah, yeah.

F: But then for me, it was like, being really nervous about it, just telling, Seth: "Listen, even if it's not with this person, I'm going to probably fall in love at some point with someone" because it wasn't the first time I had had feelings for someone, but it was the first time that I had told him, and it felt like such a heavy thing, and it was difficult for him. It wasn't like, Ari, like: "Oh, that's so great that, you know, you have feelings for someone else". Like, he was, like, hurt by it. But then after we had the talk, I was, like, so much lighter because, you know, I was honest and I said how I felt about this person.

And also then I realized it was maybe just a New Relationship Energy, and I don't have to freak out about it, but I feel like a lot of people who are, like, new to polyamory or non-monogamy start seeing someone new, and then they start having a lot of excitement and feelings for this person, and then they kind of, like, freak out. Cause they're like: "Oh, my God, like, does this mean it's gonna, like, f*** up my relationship with my primary?" I don't know if you guys have gone through, like, a process like that at all.

A: I mean, we've definitely gone through waves of, like, being very excited about people. And, like.

J: Often together.

A: Yeah.

J: We're both being excited about the same people. We date together a lot. I think for me, it definitely has not been a problem yet. I could see it being difficult at some point. The way that it's worked is definitely, I have this New Relationship Energy, and I'm very excited about somebody. I said before this idea, you have a new relationship with somebody, it can be any type of relationship, but I think with the way that our relationship is set up, it can't be quite any relationship.

It can't be a primary relationship. And I think that it does put a little bit of some level of emotional boundary for me, even if it's very slight. I just kind of know that, yes, this can be anything within this spectrum, which is this person's not going to be my primary partner. So far, it's been very natural to navigate that New Relationship Energy and really take it as something exciting and fun and meaningful and really deep.

I feel like I have really, really deep relationships with all of my partners and at the same time realize that it is different than the relationship and the feelings I have with Ari. I can't say that it's always going to be the case. I don't know. I've heard lots of examples of where it becomes really difficult, but I don't think we've had a difficult version of this so far.

F: Yeah, and I think you have a good point. You know, with this awareness of: "I'm really into this person, but I have a primary, and I'm not looking for a primary in this person". And this is New Relationship Energy, and experiencing New Relationship Energy is fine because I think that was probably the issue. Like, talking about my situation was that, like, I didn't realize that it's fine, and it's normal to feel that. But then you go on a date with someone you have New Relationship Energy with, and you feel all these things and butterflies and stuff, and then you go back to your partner, and then it's just mundane because it's not new. Right? And then you kind of forget that it's not about the person, that it's just about the situation. The fact that one is a shiny new object and the other one, or not object, subject, a shiny new subject, and the other one will never be a New Relationship Energy again.

J: Yeah. I mean, this maybe sounds kind of cheesy, but I feel like there's so much, like, magical sparkliness in our relationship also, that I haven't really, like, no, it's true. It's true.

A: I know, I know.

J: There's, like, so much, like, sparkle to it and, yeah, it's different. It's not that New Relationship Energy. But whenever I come back from a date like that, this is usually how it goes. I'm like: "I have such a crush on this person. I'm so excited". And Ari's like: "Who? I'm so excited for you". And then I think probably half the time she's like: "I actually have a crush on them too".

A: I think probably more than probably every time.

J: Almost every time. I don't know. I think that we also are very, right now, I guess I only have one person. I see one partner who we don't also see together. I think that's also changed the dynamics. I think we're very fluid with this poly friend group. It just really feels like we share in each other's excitement for our feelings for other people. And so some of that magic comes back into our relationship, too, at the same time. But I think also what you said of that other feeling of too, of just sort of also coming from that bubbly new relationship feeling and then coming back and remembering also the, like, deep feelings for this really solid, long relationship.

F: Yeah. The New Relationship Energy kind of spreads to your old relationship. That's amazing. But if you don't have that and you're new to poly and you go on a date and have these, like, bubbly feelings and then go back to your partner and you don't have them, you might be like: "Does this mean that I'm gonna break up with my partner? Blah, blah, blah", you know? So I think that, for me, at least, was a process to be like, no, this is New Relationship Energy. It's fine. I'm not gonna break up with my partner. It's okay for me to feel these feelings. And I did have that conversation with him, and I did tell him, like: "I'm having feelings for this person", but now I don't even feel like I need to say it. I mean, our structure is different, right? Because we have a little bit of a "don't ask, don't tell situation". I think Seth prefers just not to know. If, like, he notices that I'm getting really serious with someone and he, like, wants to know, he'll ask: "What are your feelings about this person?" But before, I almost felt like I needed to say it because I felt guilty, because I felt like it wasn't right for me to feel those things.

Now I'm like, I don't even feel like I need to say it because I know I'm not doing anything wrong. And I know that he knows now that we had that conversation, that that's a possibility, that I might fall in love with someone, and we're comfortable with it, with it now.

A: I think something really lovely about this kind of relationship, kind of, like, echoing what you're saying, is that you get to experience that. And I don't know. To me, it feels so safe because I know I have Jesh, and, like, getting to experience that with, like, multiple people is such, like, an incredible way to, like, build a friendship or whatever we call them, entanglement. I don't even know. Just, like, with all of our friends, and to get to experience those emotions with someone and kind of a safe capacity, especially once, like, we're pretty good at communicating of, like, what, what our allowment is. What like, our expectations are in, like, a relationship outside of our own, and just, like, kind of entering that with, like, very clear communication of, like, what we can give to other people. And then, all right, these are our limits. And everything else in between is, like, let's do it. Being able to, like, freely share that, like, joy with other people is such an incredible thing, and then share it back with each other is.

J: I definitely remember the first times I had to communicate that. It's just gotten easier ever since. I think at first I was worried about saying I have a crush on somebody. We're very open about our relationships with other people, and I remember at first being a little nervous. I felt like I almost had to play it cool a little bit. I had to be like: "Yeah, it was great. I like them". And then eventually, after some date where I was just, like, so bubbly about it, and I was like, try to hold it back. And then I was like, I was like, whatever. And I just let it out. And Ari was just really receptive to it and excited for me. And I remember, yeah, I think you mentioned a couple moments of jealousy, and I really appreciated that honesty of that, of just being like: "oh, I did experience a couple minutes of jealousy, and then it went away. I thought through it".

But that moment of jealousy was when I was on the date, not when I was telling her about my feelings. And so then realizing that I didn't have to hold back or hide, that made it so much easier. I felt like it brought us closer, too. I think being able to share something that you love with your partner and telling that you're excited about or an experience you had that is really wonderful is such a great feeling. I love talking about, we didn't see each other for a couple days, and we talk about something that happened during our week that was fun. That feeling is so good, and it's a similar feeling to that of, like: "I met this person. I'm so excited. This is what we did. I'm excited to see them again". And then I was scared at first, and then her reaction was so positive, so, like, so much compersion in it, that it's just my natural barriers there from monogamy days and all of that, you know, break down. The more or the more we experience this, the more I see that feedback and the more we communicate about it.

F: Yeah. And it's awesome that you were both able to feel compersion for him and also say: "I did feel a little jealous". Right?

A: Yeah!

F: Like, I think that, you know, some people say that compersion is the opposite of jealousy, but, not really, because you can kind of feel both at the same time. Right? And, like, I bet there's a lot of partners who are like: "I want to feel compersion, and I want my partner to be able to come back from a date, tell me that they are really excited about this person", but then when they do it, they might feel, like, jealous or whatever, you know, and being able to be like: "Okay, you know, I feel a little jealous, but, you know, I'm also happy about you". I think that's a good thing. And also, again, everyone has different boundaries. Right? Like, my partner doesn't want to hear you guys are okay with it. So also determining where you stand in that spectrum of, like, how much the person is going to share, I think it's important.

J: Yeah, I think it's really important to be on the same page. And I think we are lucky in that we're both, I think we both practice it pretty similarly. Yeah, I think for me, it's usually, like, again, like a moment of jealousy, even just like 20 seconds, and then, like, it gets overwhelmed with this feeling of excitement for Ari, because I just love that she's having a good time. Like, when you text me, like, you know: "I had a great date" or something like that.

A: I think something that I've never had to talk about, but just something that I've experienced with other partners of, like, trying to navigate any kind of, like, open poly relationship with people because there have been some people that I've dated more seriously in the poly world. I had one partner do this to me where we were kind of dating seriously for a little while, and then he started going on dates with other people, and I felt jealous. And he asked me why I felt the jealousy. Exactly what reasons? What did I think that would lead to? Or was I feeling insecure about myself? Or was I thinking that didn't mean that his feelings were real towards me and just really breaking that down and kind of dissecting it and figuring out it ended up being okay. I needed more from him than he was willing to give.

And it was like, okay, this isn't going to work, but just kind of acknowledging that, of figuring out why you feel this way and what you can do to try and alleviate that. I mean, it's never going to go away, but just trying to break it apart as opposed to it just being a negative thing on the table rather than something that could be constructive [?] in, like, your relationship.

F: Yeah. And, you know, if you actually break it down, sometimes you realize how irrational your fears are. So many good, good topics already. Yeah. Well, I'm a little curious about how, how you guys have approached, like, dating together. So when you were in the pandemic, you were each kind of seeing other partners, and then at what point did you start dating people together and how, How did that evolve?

A: So we both agreed to start kind of like opening back up, not so much like of like a relationship point, but, like, say, from like a pandemic point of view. And Jesh went on Feeld, and the second person he met on Feeld was a very good friend of ours. Now, I mean, you should be telling.

J: Yeah, I mean, it's gonna sound like an advertisement for Feeld.

A: We're not paid by them.

J: Well, we were both on Feeld, and we were both looking for individual people and couples, and I met this now partner and best friend of ours on Feeld. And again, it was the first person, when we opened up again, that I met on Feeld. I don't know how I got so lucky, but she and I had just this immediate goofy chemistry. We went on a amazing first date and just hit it off so well. Immediately, she's like, I want to meet your partner also. And we all three did a dinner, like a platonic dinner, and then we had another one, which we all cooked up, and it was so much fun. And we just had this incredible time. All three of us had just this incredible chemistry together. Just joking and just as friends and chemistry, and all of it was just, was just so great.

A: So we went on that date with her, the three of us, and then it was like a couple days before Valentine's day, and she's like: "Oh, I'm watching our friend's apartment. We're having a Valentine's day friends get together", and she's like: "Come over to this apartment that we're watching". She's like: "I have the best friends". And just. And I were like: "Okay, sure". And we...

J: She did say it was going to be a play party ahead of time.

A: Oh, yeah, she did. Okay. Yeah. And Jesh has never been to anything like this. This is his first one. Or she prefaced it of, like: "It'll be a hangout, but probably will turn into a play party"

J: I think so, yeah.

A: And we walk in and it was just, like, this incredible group of friends that just welcomed us with, like, open arms, and it just kind of.

J: Yeah, we just hit it off with everybody so well, immediately, like, instantly, we were, like, We, like, had, like, 4 hours of fun conversation, and we're like: "Everyone here is great. Why do we get along with them?"

F: Awesome.

J: And then, like, a really fun, sexy night together. It was in February, 2021, 21.

A: Yeah.

J: And so it was, like, right when I feel like everyone was kind of, like, coming out of their hibernation, and then we just, like, this big poly community kind of developed from that core group and, like, another little group sort of joining.

A: Because we met all these people so quickly that we wanted to get to know them together better, that we would just kind of, like, have, like, small, intimate dinners with people. Jesh and I would just, like, have people over and, like, or just, like, go on, like, dates, which is, like, one or, like, a couple people of, like, dating them that way. And it kind of just, like, felt something so natural of just, like, we had developed this relationship and then bringing people into it just felt so, like, I don't know, it was just, like, this really fun.

J: It felt like share, sharing the love so much. And we've had a lot of different partners of different levels of sort of seriousness that we've dated together. Like, in this community, we usually have similar tastes. We're usually into the same people, for one thing. We have just a really good dynamic, I think, dating together. And I think one thing that I really like about it, and we've had, I think, feedback from people, too, is that I think we both very much prioritize having individual relationships with anyone we're dating in the fact that it's not like a couple and a person.

It's three people who all have relationships together. And I think that's something that's really important when you're dating, that it's not that it's this single unit and then you are dating a third person together. Yeah.

A: There's also opposite advice I gave to people looking to dating couples.

J: It is, but I think it works really well for us.

A: For us, yes.

J: I think it's because we have such a strong, primary relationship and people see that. I think that maybe that makes it easier.

F: Yeah. I mean, it's like, you guys maybe do text separately with that person or whatever, but you are not hiding anything. I think it's more about the having the things out in the open.

J: And I think it's very clear we're not hiding anything in the way that we communicate, too. And I think we could probably get better at it. But, I mean, we usually have really good communication too with, with whoever we're dating and just hearing feedback. And I think that we haven't heard that, that there is any feeling of that they're worried that there's something happening with us. Because I think we give off a very authentic air that it's like there's no hidden emotions here that are happening.

F: Jeshua, I have a question for you, because before we started recording, you mentioned that non-monogamy has also helped you kind of open up to your bisexual side. So I just wanted to learn a little bit more about that. How did that journey start for you?

J: Yeah, it was really an amazing journey. I pretty recently started exploring with men and started identifying as queer, really only a year and a half ago or so. And it really was through this relationship, this poly relationship, that I think it made it so easy to happen, both because of the poly relationship and because of the community. I think the first thing I would say is, in this poly community, there's a lot of really great role models of bisexual or pan men who I think having those role models really helped. But also having the ability to explore, being in an open relationship made it so much more safe and accessible and easy to do. If I'm in a monogamous relationship with a woman, I can't go explore even if I'm interested.

I had my first sexual experience with a man during a play party that Ari was at and all of us were at. It felt so supportive, so loving, so easy that it just made that exploration not scary, which I think it would have been scary otherwise.

I think the other piece of it was just going to this idea of having these openly bi role models and being able to meet them and talk to them in a setting in which sexual exploration was possible, made all of that very, very comfortable. I think it's really easy as a man who's interested in women to just identify as straight. It's really been quite a journey since that first moment of exploration till now.

F: So had you kissed men before that you had the sexual experience?

J: I hadn't. That was my first time kissing a man that time, a year and a half ago. I always had thought that I was interested in men. I think I'd always found men attractive, but I think I always sort of shut that side of me down because I identified as straight and was very into women. And I think I sort of never had the opportunity and never really had the right environment to explore it.

F: So was this someone that you were attracted to, and it just kind of happened organically, or how did you?

J: Yeah, I was very attracted to him. It's funny because I'm just going to say who it is because he won't care. He's professionally a bisexual influencer. His name is Zach Zane, and he'd be so happy that I'm talking about him. But anyway, he was there on that Valentine's day play party, and we just hit it off so well. I was attracted to him, and we were just getting along so well, and it was just such a positive environment. And, yeah, I just sort of asked him if I could kiss him, and it was great.

F: So was it just a kiss, or did you guys also play?

J: I think that event was just a kiss, but we played more later.

F: So did you ask him out later or how did that event?

J: I didn't. Most of it has been within other group settings.

F: Awesome. And have you ever thought of maybe going on a date with a man?

J: I have, yeah. I actually haven't yet gone on a one on one date with a man. I definitely want to. Yeah, I should do that.

A: I think something also just about this poly community and just non-monogamy in general and just letting men be emotionally vulnerable with each other is also a beautiful thing to get to watch where I feel like in modern society, it's something that's so frowned upon and something that's so shunned. And just to watch men be emotionally vulnerable and intimate with each other who otherwise have never had this experience, I think is a really beautiful thing to watch and see happen because I feel like it's definitely something that needs. It's something deprived from them, and everyone should be able to experience that openly and to get to see that is really fun.

F: Yeah. So you were probably happy to see Jeshua with this man, and I'm just curious, have you guys ever thought of maybe finding a guy that you are both attracted to and maybe having a threesome?

J & A: Oh, I guess we have.

F: Oh, you have? Okay. Okay.

J: I think. I think I've just. I was just trying to think when you asked me the question of whether I've gone on a date, I think. I guess I actually have gone on a date. I don't have. There aren't any men who I'm dating the same level of regularity or partnership as women. And I'm still, I would say still early in my exploration of that. But, yeah, we've definitely had threesome experiences with men and also just in group settings. I think one thing that's just so wonderful about this whole community is almost everybody is queer at some, some level. So it is like a very fluid point environment where sort of everyone is potentially attracted to everybody else. It makes it really easy. And, yeah, I think that beyond that, just that ability to open up emotionally to other men and not have the same kind of barriers, I feel like I can have the same depth of relationship, the same depth of emotional and maybe romantic relationship with men. It's just been such an amazing, amazing, comforting, inspiring change in my life. I just feel so much more connected to my fellow men.

F: Yeah. Even with the ones that you're not hooking up with.

J: Yeah, I feel so much more.

F: This dimension of connection.

J: Yeah, I feel so much more comfortable just sharing emotions. I don't have those same barriers. And I think also the other thing that I've really appreciated is never really feeling like I fit in as a straight man and not really being able to put a finger on it because also not feeling like I identified with gay men. I was like, neither really made sense to me.

F: Right, because, like, it's almost like a bisexual man is not in the in the psych, it's not in the media. Like, you know, that's why I wanted to talk to you about this, because we need more examples of bisexual men out there that are not gay or just that, you know, are more fluid in the way that they relate. As you said, it's almost like you didn't even think of it as an option before, you know, even though you knew that you had some attraction towards men.

J: Yeah. And I think it's like the being able to express your feminine side as a man still feels very difficult or wrong or something like that in society. And I think being able to identify as queer and be able to really lean into both masculine and feminine sides is very freeing. It feels much more natural, and I felt much more like myself than I ever have in the past because that's who I am. And I think it's just not having to hide it and not having to pretend something that's not true.

F: Right, because it also comes with, you know, if you're embracing your feminine side, at least what we consider as feminine, as a society, which is sharing your feelings and crying and all of that, then, you know, you are free to do that, which is like, I think what probably the biggest trauma that men have, right? Like, that they can't cry. Like, boys don't cry. You know, that. That sort of mentality, if you can just, like, let go of that and be like, I can be masculine, f*** women, and, you know, whatever.

And I can also be feminine and f*** men, you know, and be vulnerable, and, you know, I'll do all the things. I can be aggressive, and I can be tender. I can be. And again, I'm putting this in a dichotomy. That's kind of how society sees it. So. Yeah, that's awesome. That's awesome.

J: And I think that the connection to poly is really strong, too. I think the fact that this idea of non--monogamy and polyamory, especially this idea that it's okay to share love with multiple people, I think makes that so much easier, because I can share my love with men and women and friends and non-binary friends, and it's just about loving other people and having that queer poly, both of those things together really gives this feeling of so much love to give and receive from everyone around me, both friends and partners.

F: Well, you guys sound amazing, but I'm sure that it hasn't been as easy as it sounds right now. Are there any things that have been challenging in your journey that you might want to share with us?

J: I think the hardest thing is some of the stuff I talked about up until now was just my difficulty in communicating. At first, we sort of started off with this more idea of non-monogamy, and I think it's evolved into this idea of polyamory.

A: Yeah.

J: And I think that that's something that has the fact that we don't hold back the types of romantic feelings we can feel for other people and the types of depth that those relationships can get. And it's definitely not just about sex with our other partners. I think that some of the things that have been difficult for me was just being afraid that I had to hold back, and I was lying to myself. And then because I was lying to myself, I was lying to Ari. I never felt like I was lying to Ari purposefully. It was more like: "Oh, I actually feel something exciting and tingly and romantically for this person". And I felt like I was holding that back.

And I think learning to communicate that honestly, and I think it's really like learning to be honest with myself foremost and not just kind of do the thing that I felt like was easier. And I think that has been the hardest thing in this relationship for me, generally, has been listening to myself and recognizing what I actually feel and communicating that rather than kind of shutting a lot of things down, that I think a lot of my instincts would tell me to do about my own space, that I needed my own boundaries, but also my feelings towards other people. I had to learn to be honest with myself before I could be honest communicating. And every time it happened, and I did communicate, it was so easy. Ari made it so easy. It was so accepting and so good at listening and so good at also stating what she needed from me.

I think, like, the other day, I think I happen to have, like, two dates in a week or something like that, which is unusual. I usually don't have that much time, but Ari stated: "Oh, I want one more day with you this weekend. I think I would feel neglected if I didn't get that". And that was so great. It was so helpful to hear that from her. So I think that two way communication has made my, my ability to communicate so much easier. Feeling like I always get what I need back in the other direction.

F: Yeah. Because when I hear people talking about that, like, you know how once they said it, it was all great? It's great that you communicated. I always think, like, yes, but also the person you're communicating with has to be receptive to it.

A: Yeah, for sure.

F: So, like, I'm not saying that if your partner is not like: "Oh, I'm so excited for you and your new connection", then that's wrong. But, you know, like, for listeners out there, if you feel like your partner is not providing a space where you feel like you can be honest without them, like, lashing out or making you feel wrong for it or whatever, that's a red flag, you know? And I think it's great that you guys have the space to actually talk about things.

A: Yeah, I think something really important too, just to remember in this kind of world is like, your partner is doing everything that you've agreed to, but what you need changes every day, every week, every month. And you just kind of have to listen to yourself of, like, I don't know, you might be going through something tough and you might say, hey, I need more time with you. And just voicing that. And sure, maybe they can't meet you all the way of everything you need, but just voicing that out instead of ignoring that and feeling like you're being needy, it changes. Sometimes we spend several days in a row, just us, and that's amazing. And we have a great time, but sometimes we spend maybe, like, two days together. But reading what you need at the moment, I think is really important.

F: Right, because it's not just like, you know, creating boundaries or asking for what you want once. It's like, what you want might change all the time. So it's like that continuous check in, like: "Okay, how am I feeling about this? I know I said I was fine with it, but am I actually fine with it now?" As long as you are being honest in the moment, you can always change. So, yeah. So with all that amazing journey, you guys have been dating separately, dating together, finding a polycule. What do you wish you knew when you started your journey? Or what message do you want to put out there for listeners?

A: Learn how to communicate. Well, if you know what you want, don't be afraid to ask for it. I feel like a lot of people are afraid to feel like they want to ask more of a partner than they think that the partner is willing to give. And I feel like often people want the same things, or if they don't, like making compromise, and I feel like just putting out your wants and what you need sets you up for, I feel like, just better results, rather than not saying what you need and trying to compromise, I feel like that's something. Like, it took me a while to learn.

F: Yeah. I feel like a lot of people, when I tell them: "Oh, yeah, I'm open, they're like, my partner would never accept that. They would never be open to that". And I'm like: "You might be right. I mean, you know your partner better than I do. But have you asked?" Just ask. You really don't know? Because I've also heard a lot of people being like, you know, when I finally, like, opened up and said that, they were like: "Oh, I've been thinking about the same thing". You know, and you just have to do that. Or, you know, as you said, even if your partner is not, if that's something that you want, then can they compromise a little bit for you, even if it's not your ideal situation. So, yeah, I think always opening that door of communication is important. Yeah.

A: That, and then also realizing your relationship doesn't have to fit into exactly one of the terms, like, are you poly solo, poly hierarchical? There's so many different vocabulary words that you can use to describe your relationship, but in the end, it's just making sure it's what you want. And I feel like a lot of people put stress on the vocabulary rather than what they actually need or desire or, like, what works for them. And people have this idea of like: "Oh, this is what I want". But then when you actually think about it and they break it down, it's not what they want, and they get stuck in the terminology and just going by what you feel and what your requirements are, I feel like that's an important thing to learn.

F: Yeah, yeah. That's, that's a good one as well, because I feel like there's also people who are like: "Oh, but you know, we're poly, and this is what poly people do". So I just made this assumption or whatever, and it's like, well, everyone has their own version of non-monogamy, right? That's why I like using just non-monogamy, because that just means more than two people. And that's it, you know? And after that is whatever you define it to be.

J: Both of those things too. But to add another piece of advice, getting in touch with what you actually want and feeling like what you want is valid because I think this is a lot of the journey into the world of non-monogamy, of realizing that maybe what you want non-monogamy is valid. And I think once you open up your mind to what you want is okay and doesn't make you a bad person or doesn't make you a bad partner, then you can communicate those wants. And I think for me, and for a lot of people, listening to your own wants is really difficult. So really investing in listening to yourself and unpacking what you deeply desire, what you deeply want, and understanding what is actually important, what's not important, what might be acceptable, and communicating what that is, you can give your partner, partners or friends or family or anyone the way to treat you in the way that is going to make you flourish and make you happy.

F: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a really good point. Because it's not just communicate whatever it's like, okay, take 1 second Journal. I mean that, at least for me, that's what makes me understand what I want and what I need. Or just identify those moments in which you feel very happy and those moments in which you feel unhappy and question yourself what was about that moment. Right? And how can I ask other people to provide me more of that? And how can I ask other people to provide me less of the unhappy moments? And of course, there's always sacrifices, especially in relationships. But yeah, I think those are great advices. So listening to what you want, not putting your relationship in a box, and then learning to communicate those desires and happily ever after. Yeah, I love that. Thank you guys so much. That was really awesome.

J: Thank you so much.

A: Thank you.

J: This is really fun.

A: Yeah, yeah.

J: It was great to get to talk through it all.

F: That's it for today's episode.