Fer: [00:00:00] when we are in NRE, it's good to be aware that we are handing someone the keys to our nervous system a little bit.

Oh, yes. We're giving this new person, and when they text us, it's amazing, and when they don't text us, it's terrible, and they like, you know, the rollercoaster.

I'm really controlling of that shit now.

I used to just be like, "Here, here, anyone, have my heart, have my nervous system. You're great. You're hot." Yes. "Like, you'll deal with it." And now I'm like, "Mm, I don't really fucking trust you." Yes. "Like, I'm holding onto this thing for a while. You can have a little bit. I'll give you a little bit 'cause that's what it takes is some currency of connection, but I'm holding that shit mostly for myself."

Yes. Yeah. 100%.

 Hi, everyone. Welcome to Polycurious. I am Fer, relationship coach and host of this podcast, and today I'm talking to my friend Sam Charles. You actually might know him as Tom from my last episode where I talk about my experience domming at a kink sober party. [00:01:00] In that episode, I called him Tom, but since he's given me his consent to, to be named.

So, basically that's how we met. We met at this party where I ended up domming him, and if you haven't listened to that episode yet, It's the one right before this one.

And after having that experience where I dommed him for the first time, obviously there was some sort of connection, And I was very interested in getting to know him better because I also know that he is also a sex and relationship coach.

He is non-monogamous, and I figured that he probably has a very interesting journey, which I confirmed during this conversation. So today we talk about many things, but one of the main things that we talked about is new relationship energy. Big topic in non-monogamy. Why? Because we, or the majority of us, really experience it a lot and it can be [00:02:00] very destabilizing.

So what I really liked about today's episode is that we talked about the shadow side of NRE, basically the part of NRE that is not as fulfilling and enjoyable

 as one expects And I really liked what Sam said about NRE being for a lot of us, like handing the keys to our nervous system to someone else.

 and that's one of the reasons why I've actually been taking a break from non-monogamy

And why I've had my doubts about whether non-monogamy is worth it. Because yes, being on an NRE can be very exciting. It can feel amazing. As we talked about in this episode, it feels like being high And some people really love that,

 but that also means that you tend to idealize a person

And that you tend to put a lot of your emotional capacity on whoever you are into So if you identify with that,

this episode is for you. Both [00:03:00] Sam and I have experienced it, and both of us have learned to manage it better, so I hope that you find that helpful.

There was so much that we talked about in this episode that I actually have some bonus content for you.

And usually I release bonus content from my interviews on Patreon behind a paywall, or actually now on Spotify for paid subscribers. But in this case, I decided that I'm actually releasing this bonus episode for free because it is on a topic that I feel like we need more information about, which is men coming to terms with their bisexuality.

I think that it has become a lot more common, at least in the non-monogamous world, for women to be bisexual or bicurious, have sex with other women. But I find that there are less examples of men who are openly bisexual, who have had [00:04:00] that journey of realizing that they might be interested in men when they are adults, and having to overcome homophobia, having to get comfortable with their queer identity and all of that.

So if you're interested in that, make sure to listen to the bonus episode from this interview, which comes after it. And listen, you don't have to be a bicurious man to be interested in this episode. I think generally speaking, the episode is about coming to terms with who you are, with your desires, getting real about that, and also learning to relate to people in a different way,

And if you want access to all of my bonus content, not just from Polycurious episodes, but also recordings from our meetups, you can go to Patreon to subscribe.

Or again, now you can go to Spotify,

And subscribe to access many more episodes All of them are already available on my Patreon, [00:05:00] and I will be releasing on Spotify the 50-plus episodes that I have on Patreon every week. I've already started. You might notice there's a few episodes with a little... If you're on Spotify, with a little

 lock symbol. Those are the ones that you will be able to access if you subscribe and this might actually be the perfect time for you to subscribe because I'm taking a little summer break, just a couple of months to unwind. I'm actually recording this intro

 from a Greek island.

But don't you worry, I'll be back before the fall. And in the meantime,

I will be releasing all of that bonus content from my Patreon for subscribers. So if you don't want to miss out on two. episodes per week Make sure to subscribe on Spotify so you can catch up on all of that content while I'm away

 Okay, guys, make sure to listen all the way through Because Sam [00:06:00] has really great tips at the end. He has five tips for anyone navigating non-monogamy

 that I feel are so, so valuable. And if you want to connect with him as a coach, you can of course find all of the links in the show notes, as well as all of the links to my Patreon, his bonus episode,

And actually I'm going to drop the link to my episode on new relationship energy there as well. So if you want to dive deeper into that topic, you can go and have a listen.

Okay, guys, let's get into it. Here is my interview with Coach Sam Charles

 Sam, welcome to Polycurious. I'm so excited to have you. Thanks. Nice to be here. Yeah, you know, I bet listeners will be very curious about you if they listen to my last episode ... where I talked about, the experience that we had. Was it last... No, it wasn't last weekend.

A couple weeks ago. The weekend, couple weeks ago. [00:07:00] where I went to this kinky sober party, and you were working there. And you helped me create a scene and enact a scene where I was dominant for the first time. I still cannot believe that was your first time. You were so good at it. Such a natural.

Thank you. You helped me, you helped me a lot, so I appreciate that. but yeah. So I was like, "Okay, well let's get to know each other outside of that environment."

 and I can't wait to hear more about your journey because I know that you are a sex and relationship coach now.

And- You are non-monogamous. but yeah,

Fer: I really don't know much more about you except for, you know, again, the experience that we had , the friends in common that we have.

And that's, that's all there is to know. We're good. You are a really good sub. That's, that's the one thing- Thank you. Thank you. The, the one thing we need to know about you.

Otherwise, we don't really care. Yeah. Okay. awesome. [00:08:00] So yeah, let's start from the beginning. So tell us about your beginnings with non-monogamy. How did you find out that this was something that you, maybe you wanted to try, and what was that, that experience like?

Yeah, so it was even-- It was an attempt at non-monogamy, I would say. It wasn't, it wasn't non-monogamous, although I wanted to be. So basically, I had, I had quit my job. It was a lifelong dream. I've been obsessed with rock climbing. I was to quit my job and go and live in a van. That was something I'd always wanted to do, live in a van and just go rock climbing all the time.

So I was maybe 20, 21, something around there, and reached out to a friend who I knew from college, and I said, "Hey, I wanna quit my job and get in a van and go rock climbing. Do you wanna join?" And she said yes. Like, immediately she was down, And this was in Colorado. Are you from Colorado? I was at the time.

Sam: I'm from New York, grew up in New York. Oh, okay. College in Colorado. Oh, okay. And I used to be an engineer, so that was an eng-- It was like a process engineering job. I've gone very left brain to right brain in my evolution as a human, and so I'm still, [00:09:00] I'll still have some nerdy references, and I still am proud that I was an engineer at one point, but I don't really identify that way anymore.

Fer: You are a recovering engineer.

Sam: Recovering engineer. Yeah, exactly. I've learned the benefit of having a lot of feelings. Mm-hmm. So that's been enjoyable. Mm-hmm. So yeah. So I took this trip, and her and I were climbing together. We were super close friends, best friends probably, enjoying ourselves on the road.

And yeah, we had some curiosity about dating each other, and so we started to do that. And so we got involved, and we didn't have a s- very specific container, but we were starting to get involved sexually and romantically and experiment and try to figure out, yeah, what was right relationship for us. And it was a really just, in general, very freeing experiential time for both of us.

And so I had also had a f- had someone who I had been romantically and sexually involved with who lived in another state, and she would come out, and we'd take climbing trips together. We also didn't have a container As you'll [00:10:00] hear, this is probably some of the challenges with doing this, not defining the relationship and, and seeing what you are.

But yeah, so her and I would have these trips where she would fly out to Colorado. We'd go on a climbing trip. It would be super fun, connective, romantic, sexual, all the things, and then she would fly back. And we did that for, on and off for a couple years, and, and I think we both had feelings for each other.

And so my first attempt at non-monogamy was when both of these two worlds collided. So I was in the van living with this one woman, and the other woman was gonna fly out and take a trip to come and hang out and climb with us. And I just navigated it very poorly. I had feelings for both of them, and I remember just being really clear in myself.

So this is before I knew the word polyamory. I didn't know what that was. I didn't know, but I just knew in myself that I had feelings for two people, and that felt very easy, like just the, the fact of having feelings for two people was- And you communicated that? [00:11:00] Well, this is the This is the challenge. So yeah.

So I communi- the one I was living in the van with, I communicated with, and we had talked about it, where like we, we had come to an agreement. Like, we're not in a relationship together. Like, we're experimenting and we're connecting, but there's no container here. And so what we decided would be the simplest route was for us to just, while the other person came in, her and I would just sort of go back to being friends.

We wouldn't hook up.

It was just like, "Okay, you and I are connecting. Let's put that on pause.

You and her can connect for a couple days, and then she'll leave, and you and I will go back to connecting." Mm-hmm. Like it felt simple that way. And how long had you been living in the van? A couple months at that point. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. With her? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

 the other person flew in, and pretty much immediately, it was like night one of me and this other woman connecting, the next day- We wake up and the other person had been sleeping in her tent, and so she came out and was just like right away, like in a terrible mood. And she's like: "I hate this.[00:12:00] 

I hate everything about this. I'm not gonna lie anymore." So she normally slept with you in the van? No, no, she had a tent, so she stayed in her tent anyway. Every night? Every night normally. Yeah, yeah. Oh, okay, okay. I was in the van, she was in her tent. Okay, okay. At least where she preferred to sleep. Yeah, yeah.

So she was still in the tent. It was still-- Nothing changed there. but pretty quickly- Well, something changed there- Yeah, yeah ... because there you were in the van- Emotionally, a lot of things ... fucking another woman- Exactly, yeah ... while she was in the tent. Yeah, that changed. And so she pretty much right away was like: "I'm not okay with this.

I'm not gonna lie. I'm not gonna pretend. Something's not happening." Like, "And you need to tell her." And at the time like: "Okay, I guess I just have to tell her." So we had this day of climbing that was horribly awkward- Oh my God

where one person would go... We were rope climbing, so one person would go up, I'd be belaying, and the other person would have this weird tension at the base with me. And I think she also-- I think, you know, both women are smart. They intuit things. I think she knew something was up. So like one person would go up, and then it'd just be this really tense moment at the bottom, and then she would come down, and then one person would go up, and there'd [00:13:00] be another tense moment with two other people.

We would try to be like cheering each other on. It was terrible. So much tension. And I remember rehearsing it in my, in my mind of this is what I'm gonna say.

I'm gonna say that I have feelings for you, and I have feelings for her, and that's it. It's very simple, and I'm capable of having feelings for both people, and we're just not able to keep that a secret. And we had planned on keeping it secret, and we don't want to.

 And that was just the first time of really orienting and being clear on that of, yeah, this feels true for me as-- and I know it's not for everybody, but for me, I can have feelings for two different people.

 And so the day goes by, all the tension, very tense day. And, I was walking alone with the woman who flew in, and I said just that. I said: "Listen, I have to tell you something. I have feelings for you, and I also have feelings for this other woman. and to me, we can all coexist.

That's totally fine." And she just fully shut down.

 she ended up leaving, and she ended up hating me for years after that.

Like, we were friends and romantic for a number of years before that, and then [00:14:00] after that, she hated me for, a number of years. Some of her friends still hate me. Like- Yeah. And where I really went wrong, it was clear, is obviously she did not have, which I didn't have the foresight to consider, she was staying with me in the van.

I was her ride. I was her home. I was everything. She had no safety without me. So there was no consent, and that's something that I really, if I look back and say, "Where did I fuck up in this situation?" it's because there was no consent.

It was like, "Here, welcome to the situation. You're now in the middle of it. Make a decision." And really, obviously, that's a fucked up thing to do, and we need informed consent, which is ahead of time, before we go into these situations. so it was a really terrible attempt at polyamory. And what I also realized, which I think might be true for some of your listeners, or a lot of them, so we live, right, and most of our culture is very heteronormative and monogamous, and that's the current, that's the current that exists.

That's the water that we're swimming in all the time, whether, whether you [00:15:00] realize it or not. And so in order to swim against the current, you have to know things. You have to be educated. You have to know yourself a little bit. You don't have to know every poly term that's out there, but you have to have some idea of things because you're swimming against a current, and that's also what I didn't realize at the time.

I thought it was enough to just be a person with feelings and be honest, and In some ways that isn't enough. you do need to have some sort of information. because you can get yourself into some situations that are quite challenging and end up with people hating you for years.

Oh, no. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Yeah. And at the same time, I totally get why she was upset. Oh, yeah. You know, because of this consent thing, you know? Yeah. And I think that that's one of the things that I think us women complain a lot about men, that it's like, "Why couldn't they just tell us?" You know?

Because if you had approached the conversation before she got there, right? Yeah. Maybe she would've been like, "Okay, well, maybe I can be on board with it," or, "Actually, no, I'm not okay with it. Let's [00:16:00] plan a trip separately," or whatever. It doesn't- Yeah. Anything ... but, like, she would've been a lot more open.

 it kind of reminds me- Yeah ... I mean, it's not at all the same, but, I had this experience with a guy in Miami where he invited me to a party, and we had hooked up at this point, so I'm assuming, okay, well, I'm his date for the party.

Mm-hmm. And then I get to the party, and he's, with this woman, that apparently he also worked with. And we kept going from one party to another, and I was like, "What is happening?" I think they are dating, but, he invited me, and, I'm really confused. We ended up at his apartment, and he's expecting us to have a threesome just because, I had told him that I'm, non-monogamous and he just assumed that because of that I would be okay having a threesome with whoever the fuck he wanted, you know?

And it's like, maybe if he had told me before, "Hey, like, I have this other woman that I'm interested in, and, I was thinking maybe we could play," I'd be like, "Okay." But it just created this situation where the woman and I were kind of, in competition [00:17:00] with, with each other. And then when, obviously the vibe was totally off and he realized that that wasn't happening, he basically, kicked me out of his place, which I was planning on, staying there.

And I was, drunk, and I, had driven there, and at that point I was, super broke, so I didn't have money for an Uber. So I ended up having to, drive back drunk because he was like, "Oh, I work with this woman, and, I don't wanna, mess my relationship with her, so therefore I gotta eliminate you from this dynamic."

Of course, not the same. You didn't kick anyone out. You had good intentions. But all of this to say that I think that-

 whatever your intentions are, just, talk about them, you know? Yeah, yeah. There's so many reasons why we get into that trap, and especially men, right? We don't communicate certain things. We have a hard time just communicating our feelings to begin with, so that's already a baseline of challenge.

And then when we put people in uncomfortable situations or unsafe situations like you were in, where you're forced to drive [00:18:00] drunk because you don't have money for an Uber, you just really get people into fucked up situations, and it's not okay. And it's also-- It's really common. It, it just happens a lot, and it's, it's terrible.

I'm sorry that happened to you. It's okay. I'm sorry that happened to you- Yeah. ... even though you, you created the circumstances. Yeah. I, I know you had good intentions. Yeah. And, you know, we forgive you. Yeah. Us women, I forgive you even though I had nothing to do with it. Thank you. but yeah. How old were you when that happened?

I wanna say around, like, 20 or 21 I mean, I always joke that like men under 30 are not men, they're kids. Yeah. You know? Like, I, and I'm always like, I don't date men under 30 even though I'm- Yeah ... only 31. It's a fair rule, honestly. Yeah, so I mean, 21, you know, I think that- Yeah

a lot of men really fuck up at that time, so you know, totally understandable. Yeah. So anyhow, so that happened. You learned- Yeah ... from the experience. Well, and one of the things, yeah, one of the things I learned specifically on that one was, something that's come up more recently in other poly [00:19:00] situations, which is to just have super clear intention.

So when you're, this is when you're like, just on your own first, like what is my intention? If I have a new connection, if I have an existing connection- Yes ... like, what is my intention?

 getting a little nerdy, a vector in physics.A vector is just an arrow, and it has two characteristics. It has a size or a magnitude, and it also has a direction. And if you don't have those two things, you don't have enough information, and I feel the same way about poly with just having an intention and a direction for your connections. Like, what is my intention?

Again, do I just wanna have sex? Do I want something else? And then what's the direction we're heading in? Are we gonna hang out weekly? Are we hanging out monthly? Are we totally unsure? Which also is fine if your intention is just to explore and be with open possibility. That's a great intention. But just naming that.

But you have to communicate it. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah, 'cause also it creates so much anxiety, right? Uh-huh. I think, I think especially if the other person actually wants something more serious then it becomes a [00:20:00] situationship as people, people call it. But I really like that, point of, you know, naming the intention.

Mm-hmm. And if you have a partner as well, like naming your intention with other people to your partner, right?

 because otherwise other, other surprises come, and then your partner is gonna be like, "Oh,

But I thought it was friendly," or, "I thought you weren't having sex tonight," or, "I thought that this was just sex." And then the moment, that starts changing, maybe you're like, "Oh, well, now I'm catching feelings for this person, but I told my partner it was just sex." Yeah. And I don't want my partner to- Classic.

Classic. And I don't want my partner to- Yeah ... stop me from doing this or get mad that I lied or whatever, so maybe- Mm ... I better not say anything. And then you just, feel guilty that you're having these feelings, and then- Yeah ... your partner finds out and, so yeah, intentions change, and that's fine, but just- Yeah

as they're changing, you also have to communicate that. Just having it right off the bat. And I also, this is for my nervous system. Like, I wanna know if my partners are doing something. I wanna know, the range of possibility, so [00:21:00] overestimate rather than underestimate.

If you're like, "Well, I'm going for a friendship, but maybe we could hook up," like, I'd rather you just say that as opposed to being like, "Yeah, it's a friendship thing. Like, we're just going on a date to, go get to know each other," and then I hear later that you made out or you hooked up in some way.

Like, that is so much more impactful for my nervous system than just being honest upfront of like, "Yeah, I'm not sure what I ... But I'm open to hooking up," or, "I'm open to this," and this is like, that's the range of possibility. I can, like, overestimate a little bit, That way I hear about it and I'm not, like, surprised, 'cause surprise just sucks in polyamory.

Yes. Surprise is kind of the worst. Yes. I think it's, the uncertainty. Yeah. Literally, to me, the uncertainty is the worst- Yeah, that's the worst ... about, about polyamory. Yeah, me too.

 And we do just have to be I think all certainty is false. even monogamous relationships where like, "I'm certain that my partner will be with me forever, and that they'll never..." It's like we don't know that. Like, at some point our partner could just break up with us

Yeah, exactly. So tell us. Oh, God. [00:22:00] You were 21 or something. Yeah. And then you took a 10-year break, I think you said, right? Yeah. Well- From non-monogamy ... and I don't even call it a break because I hadn't been, right? I was just trying to be polyamorous, but it didn't quite work, and then I just didn't know how to do it from then on.

And then after that, I would say I was a serial monogamist to where I was sort of jumping from, I would do one three-month period with one person, and then a two-month period with the next, and we'd break up, and then another three-month period.

And I did that for years. That was probably my about maybe five or six years of that. And I didn't realize in that also that I think I ended relationships because of having feelings for other people. Hmm. And so I'd be like, "Well, I, I need to end this now because now I'm having a relationship with someone else."

So, so did you bring it up at some point of, "Hey, I want to be non-monogamous," or you would just assume, "Okay, I tried the non-monogamy thing. It went terribly, so now I must redeem myself and go back to monogamy like society has told me to because I really fucked up," you know? Yeah, I [00:23:00] think I just didn't even consider it, honestly, as a possibility.

 I think it was just this is the world I'm in, and also I had some self-esteem stuff, some self-worth stuff that didn't really help, where I, I didn't feel worthy of ha- like the idea of me being worthy for one relationship was hard enough, and then the idea of me being worthy of multiple romantic partnerships where I had feelings for people was, I think, too much for my younger self to comprehend.

And so I would just-- I didn't question it a ton. It was just like, "Well, I'll just date this person for a few months and then, and then I'll have feelings for someone else, and then I'll end this and do it again." And and, I don't know.  This is Been kind of an obsession of mine f- all up until really a year ago I stopped, but I was obsessed with NRE.

And I didn't know the term at the time, but I just loved- Yeah, new relationship energy for those- Oh my God ... new

to, to this world. Where all the, yeah, all the brain chemicals are ... I mean, it's free drugs, right? Your brain is just shooting chemicals, and it feels so good connecting with someone new. And, I [00:24:00] used to really get wrapped up in NRE, and I'm not gonna say I'm immune to it anymore, but I have just seen all the sides of it now, and I've seen the shadow side of it now, whereas before it was just like, I just loved it.

I was like, "I just love to love, and I just wanna, love a new person and love a new person." And I would just have these relationships that were just pure, I was just in it for the NRE, and then as soon as that would fade a little bit or I'd have feelings for someone else, a new NRE was on the horizon, just end that, go to a new one, and just have it all over again.

 so yeah. So I was, I think I was just kinda NRE hunting for a while and would do that quite a bit. Yeah. Yeah. Well, let's talk about NRE because I feel like- Yeah ... I'm on, of the mind that, yes, it feels good, but also I kind of hate it.

You know what I mean? Like-

Oh, why do you hate it?

Fer: Because it's so distracting. Yeah. You know? And then you're just, waiting for that person to answer that text or just, thinking about that person all the time, unable to focus on work. Yeah . And sometimes it can be really good.

Sometimes, like, that, like- Yeah ... e- erotic energy kind of [00:25:00] translates into other aspects of life, and- Yeah ... and you have that- Mm ... you know, that kind of, I don't know, like, twinkle in your eye or spark in your eye,Oh, you're glowing . Yeah, yeah, yeah. That glow or whatever.

And sometimes- Is that glow or just NRE? Yeah, exactly. That NRE Yeah ... glow. And, you know, that can be good sometimes, but it often is distracting, right? and also is not very, calming to your nervous system, right? No, it's a lot. I'll link in the show notes, but one of my Patreon episodes or recording from a meetup was on NRE So I was, like, doing research on it, and your cortisol levels are up.

Oh, yeah. You know? So, like, basically your stress hormones are elevated. so yes, it's happy stress if there's such a thing, but it's still stress, you know? Mm-hmm. And I think that after doing this for years, I'm just tired of my nervous system having ups and downs, and I feel like I'm, I'm, like, a sensitive person, you know?

So- For me too. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So it's like, oh, if, I was supposed to, meet up with someone and then, they can't or [00:26:00] they cancel the date they take days to answer my text or whatever- Mm-hmm ... that really, like, hits my- Yeah ... you know, my internal peace.

Mm-hmm. Which is one of the reasons why I'm like, "Ugh, maybe I don't wa- I don't want non-monogamy- ... because I don't wanna be, like," you know? Yeah. But of course, then there's the, you know, again, the, the happy hormones of, like- Mm-hmm ... you know, being really excited about someone and, Mm-hmm ... whatever. Like, it's also, it can also, it also has a positive side, but it's just, it's a lot for my nervous system.

It's a lot for anybody's nervous system. Yeah. I don't know. I feel like some people take it a little bit easier. Yeah. I must say, though, that it does get easier. I think that, like, the first time that I experienced an NRE, also in the context of having, a primary partnership- Mm-hmm

I was, freaking out. I was like, "Oh my God," "What if I'm, I wanna leave my partner for this other person?" And it wasn't because there was anything wrong with my partner, with my- Mm-hmm ... primary partnership. Yeah. It's just because, like- It's so exciting ... yeah, it's so exciting- Yeah ... and you're, like, thinking about the future- Yeah, yeah

and, you know. And, and I remember, the very first time I had, a crush on someone, [00:27:00] and I think he was the first person that I had sex with outside of my relationship with Seth. And, you know, I met him at a festival. We had sex once, and then he, found someone to be monogamous with and, like- Mm

broke up with me basically. but you know, before he broke up with me, broke up, right? This relationship of- ... of one festival and one date. Yeah. you know, I was like, "Oh my God, but, what if I wanna go on trips with this person?" And at that point- Yeah ... Seth had expressed that he wasn't comfortable with me, going on trips with other people.

That has since changed. And then, you know, I, went on this whole, rabbit hole of "Oh, what if I can't do this or can't do that?" Right. And then, like, all of the sudden was like, "Oh, hold on. It's not relevant anymore." Yeah. Like, he broke up with me, you know? Yeah. So it's like, I've, I think I've learned ever since- Mm

like, now when I feel NRE, I take it with a grain of salt. I don't believe everything my brain and my body is telling me. Mm-hmm. Also because, it changes not only because they break up with me or find someone to be monogamous with- But also because maybe I don't find [00:28:00] them as attractive anymore.

Yeah. Because then, like, the fourth date, I, you know, I have this, fourth date rule of, I don't take my feelings seriously until I've had, four dates with someone. Right. Yeah. It's a great rule. Because, usually it's around that time that, all of the sudden they, make a comment or, do something-

that you're like, "Oh, actually, I don't like that about this person." Yeah. And it kind of, like, bursts that bubble of like- Yeah ... oh, this person, person is perfect for me. Yeah. You know? Anyhow, that's my experience NRE. What's- Yeah ... what's your experience? 'Cause you said the shadow side of NRE. You talked about that too.

Yeah, I think I've really had a big shift around it just in the last year. And I don't know, I think it's a multitude of factors. I've seen myself go through the cycle of meeting someone.

 building up the fantasy bubble, building up that whole world and the whole life that we're gonna live together, and, and then as soon as it pops, it's, like, devastating. And so I think I've just been through that enough times for me and my nervous system to [00:29:00] really know at first that when I am constructing the fairy tale and we're gonna live happily ever after and all this stuff, I can notice that a little more.

And so it, it does sort of take away the f- a little bit of fuel from the NRE where it's not so powerful. 'Cause I think one of the things that we get swept in is we are, as a society, super conditioned to the fairy tale and to this, happily ever after story. I'm gonna meet the right person and they sweep me off my feet.

Yes. They know my needs without me saying them. They look into my eyes and they know exactly how I'm feeling, and they, you know, anticipate my needs before I have them, and they treat me like, you know, royalty. Yeah, and the sex is explosive- Yeah. ... but also they are my safe space- Yeah, yeah. ... and my support system and, you know.

Yeah. They are my everything. Oh my God, so sweet. but we are really susceptible in that. So we get taught as kids, that's what Disney makes their money off of is creating these fairy tales, and kids love them because they're... Who doesn't want that, right? It's like, you know, we're going through our lives as children and we're having unmet needs, and we can imagine how powerful would it be to [00:30:00] meet someone that would just meet all of our needs and do this.

So I think just knowing that we are so susceptible to that is super helpful. And then can we see it? Can we go through a few of these cycles enough to see, oh yeah, when I have a date with someone and I'm attracted to them or I connect with them, that I just build a whole world and, and I don't know them.

And like you said, at around the fourth date or maybe whatever that timeline is for you at some point where the bubble gets a little more permeable and you realize Oh, this person actually isn't perfect. They're just a human being, and they also have flaws and challenges, and maybe they're great to relate with in certain ways, and maybe we're really good partners anyway.

But there's still, there's just so many things that we just magnify and create and make such stories out of that really sweep us away.

yes, 100%. that's also- Yeah

been my experience. So listeners out there, if you are experiencing NRE right now- ... don't freak out. don't take your feelings and your [00:31:00] thoughts too seriously. Don't make any important decisions. Don't, compromise your other relationships. That's a big one, too. Just- Yeah ... you know, just give yourself some time before believing whatever your brain is telling you or your body is telling you, you know?

Yeah, and on the, on the receiving end of NRE, let's say you have a partner who's experiencing NRE with someone else. That is also really hard because your partner, who you're not experiencing NRE, right? Or maybe you are and you're lucky, but, but most of the time it's one at a time. So your partner's experiencing the thing, and they're getting swept off their feet, and they're probably leaving you behind a little bit.

They're probably not quite as excited about you as they maybe once were. And so that can just be really hard to receive and really hard to be on that side of. And so just being cognizant of that, of, yeah, it's, we get swept away in our bubble, and everything's amazing, and this person's so great. And, don't forget about the people that have already loved you, that have demonstrated that they love you and care about you and are together with you and have maybe agreements with you.

Like, all of those [00:32:00] pieces don't just go away because you're swept up in somebody else's current. Right, and then the NRE person might end up actually not being reliable or not treat you so well, and then you'll be like, "Ugh, why did I sacrifice my other relationship?" Mm-hmm. Or, "Why did I prioritize my time with this new person just because I was excited, and it turns out that they're not-- they haven't shown up for me in the way that these other people that deserve my time and- Yeah.

and care." Yeah, and have proven it over time. Exactly. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, did that happen to you? not in a noteworthy way. I've, I've experienced it, but not in any stories that I'm, like, itching to tell.

 I have more experience being on the, like, I'm the one with NRE side, and I'm maybe forgetting about my partner a little bit and getting swept away a little bit, and something I wanna say to that effect as well is when we are in NRE, it's good to be aware that we are handing someone the keys to our nervous system a little bit.

Oh, yes. We're giving this new person, and when they text us, it's amazing, and when they don't text [00:33:00] us, it's terrible, and they like, you know, the rollercoaster. And it's not a bad thing. It's just to be aware, like, yeah, I'm a little bit, like, giving someone the keys to drive this nervous system. I don't really know them.

I don't trust them. I think this is why I've also just been a little bit out of NRE with NRE and just a little bit more phased onto, I think just a more slower paced version of this and not getting swept away so much in my old age is that I'm just aware of this, of like, yeah, I'm, I'm giving this person the keys to my nervous system, and, like, I don't fucking trust them.

Like, I'm choosing myself. I'm trying to- Yes ... I'm trying to take control, as much control of my own nervous system as I can. And I'll acknowledge, like, it is hard to connect with people without giving them some version of keys to your nervous system a little bit. But I, I'm really controlling of that shit now.

I used to just be like, "Here, here, anyone, have my heart, have my nervous system. You're great. You're hot." Yes. "Like, you'll deal with it." And now I'm like, "Mm, I don't really fucking trust you." Yes. "Like, I'm holding onto this thing for a while. You can have a little bit. I'll give you [00:34:00] a little bit 'cause that's what it takes is some currency of connection, but I'm holding that shit mostly for myself."

Yes. Yeah. 100%. Oh my God, yes. I'm the same. I feel like--

 I'm like that too, and I've had to learn to be like, "No, you know what?" As you said, "I'm gonna give you a little bit, but I'm not gonna give you all of it." Yeah. Because then if you don't reciprocate, I feel like shit, you know? And like- Yes, devastating

 I've had so many experiences where I've rearrange my whole schedule or something to, like, see this guy, you know? Ah, it's the worst. And then, Yeah, and then they cancel or- And then they fucking cancel, and it's like- Yeah ... I fucking, changed my trip plans or whatever for you, and I don't even know you, and then you're fucking canceling.

You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. Or whatever. Yeah. And then you feel, like, I feel, I feel really resentful towards myself, right? Like- Yeah ... like, why the fuck did I give so much to someone that didn't prioritize me in that way? So now I'm much more like, "Okay, let me make sure that you are prioritizing me- Mm-hmm

before I give you anything," which actually was part of the reason why- This made me think of this too. Yeah. You were thinking about it too. Yeah. Yes, yes. 'Cause [00:35:00] we talked about it, but yeah. Yeah, yeah. yeah, why when we were at the party, I was like, it felt so empowering to be in this, goddess dom dynamic, you know, because that's kind of the journey I'm in right now of, you know, you either, like, prioritize me and you, treat me like a fucking goddess or a queen- Yeah

or else I'm not wasting my energies with you because of what we were just talking about because it just, you know, it's, like, a lot for my nervous system. So, you know, that also includes not, jumping into, relationships right away or even, having sex right away and, and just taking your time to get to know the person to make sure, okay, this person does prioritize me.

This person does care about me. I like this person as a friend. Okay, I'm gonna open myself to them- Yeah ... as opposed to, as you said, they're hot. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. They're hot. Crazy. They want me. Yeah. Whatever. Like- Yeah ... let's go, you know? Yeah. And then it's like, yeah, you, you save a lot of heartbreak.

Mm-hmm. well, I just wanna say, I felt that from you so clearly 'cause I wanted to brat when we were in our scene. I wanted to brat so badly 'cause there were things I wanted [00:36:00] to do, but I just sensed from you this like, oh, if I don't do exactly what you're asking me to, you will leave and you will never come back.

I felt that so clearly from you, so I was like, "Nope, no bratting. I'm gonna do exactly- ... what she wants me to do." Yeah. I mean- Yeah ... that's pretty much how I feel right now. And- You know, again, it, it's not like in real life, and I talked about that in the episode as well. Yeah. Like, it's not like in real life I'm gonna treat people like that, and, like, I'm gonna be like...

You know, 'cause there are some women that are like that. Like, "You either pay for everything- Right ... or I'm not with you," or whatever. You know what I mean? And it's like, I'm not, I'm not like that at all. I'm actually, very, collaborative and sweet- Yeah ... and whatever. But it's like- ... you know, for, for example, something that, I'm realizing, something that I need in order to, be in relationship with someone is communication.

 we were talking about- Yeah ... so my nervous system is not, like, hyped up, like, waiting for that text or whatever. if I'm going to relate to someone, like, they need to be communicative. They need to, respond to my texts. acknowledge what [00:37:00] I say. show me that they're, like, engaged and interested in, in me in that way.

Yeah.But, I mean, this is new, you know? This is new for me. before I'd be like, "Oh, well, you know, maybe they're busy or whatever." And maybe they're busy. Right. And that's fine, and Maybe they, totally wanna be with me, and they totally care for me, and they're just bad texters.

Okay, fine. But it doesn't feel good to me. Yeah. So and, and this is, like, what, you know, people talk about boundaries and how boundary is, like, it's not like, "Oh, you better text me." It's like, "No, if you don't text me, or if you don't respond to my texts, I rather not, interact with you in that way," right?

And it's more about, what you do than, what, you know, you are asking the other person to do. so yeah, that's where I'm at. Yeah. And the, the texting thing in particular, I've very much appreciated for our little communication that, like, I feel like you acknowledge my texts or you text me back in some, what my nervous system would deem as a reasonable timeframe.

And I've had that come up with a few different scenarios, and it's really hard on my nervous system when someone doesn't text me back, or they [00:38:00] don't acknowledge a thing that I say, especially when it's vulnerable.

And it does limit how much I wanna connect with people for sure. That's, like, a huge factor actually is, in communication these days is how do we text, and do you get back to me? And, and again, if we're just on a dating app, you know, less important there, but if we've established some connection or are gonna meet up, and I, I'm kind of waiting for 24 hours to hear whether you're gonna, like- Confirm the meetup time that we've already suggest- whatever, like those little things.

I'm like, "Nah, I'm out." Like, I'm not giving you any more keys to the nervous system. Exactly. I love that analogy of maybe I give you like a little key to a small part. But I'm not giving you the keys until you show you are worth it. Yeah. Well, and, and I'm just at a, a point in my life where I'm feeling immensely picky about who I have sex with, who I spend my time with, who I connect with, because, yeah, it's just that thing of I- I'm also trying to keep my nervous system well under control and handled myself.

And if it's up and down, like I want to [00:39:00] be the one who's in charge of that, and I want to be the one who's managing that and not like depending on other people. Because, yeah, I've just had so much... And especially I had a hard, really hard breakup in the last, year that kind of spurred a lot of this, and now I'm like, I'm actually the most picky I've ever been, and I'm not trying to get into NRE, and I'm not trying to, lose myself in connection anymore.

And, so there's a, a tiny bit of fear of like, "Oh, am I gonna make it too hard to connect with me?" But if I do, I'm okay. I'm choosing me all day. Yeah, I mean, whoever- Yeah ... you know, passes the tests

 is gonna be worth your connection, and you're just saving yourself heartbreak and, and- Yeah ... you know- Yeah ... time and, and all those things. But anyhow, okay. So you took this break of Back to, yeah ... yeah, back to your story with- Yeah, yeah ... you took this break of 10 years, and then- Well, so, so it was, it was five or six years of sort of serial monogamy, and then I ended up in a monogamous relationship, which

 lasted about five years. And with [00:40:00] her, I wanna say pretty early on, it was maybe in the f- second year, I started asking for, "Hey, can we be a little more sexually explorative? Can we try these things? can we connect with other people? Can we have threesomes? Can we go to play parties?" Like all this stuff I'd been really excited about and starting to hear about more things or being invited to play parties for the first time.

And, and she was a no to all of that, It would cause a really intense reaction for her. And so I ended up thinking like, "Oh, it's because I'm asking wrong." Like it's, that, that's sort of my thing. So this is the thing, and, and I teach, people I coach. In relationship, we tend to point...

When conflict happens, we tend to point our fingers in two directions. One is at the other person, "It's your fault. You fucked up. You're to blame." And one is at ourselves, "I fucked up. It's my fault. I'm to blame." something wrong with me. And I'm pointing inwards. I'm always like, if conflict happens or that's m- kind of my default mode, like I look at what did I do wrong, as opposed to like what's [00:41:00] happening with the other person.

And, yeah, so I had just realized, I, for years I was like, "Oh, I'm asking wrong." And eventually I got to a point where I realized that I had asked for them in every possible way that I could ask for them, and she was still a no.

And I just had to choose, do I wanna be in this monogamous relationship and let go of those things? And we'd been dating for five years. I was deeply in love. we had talked about getting married and, you know, we were already living together. So it was sort of that choice point of am I gonna give up these things that are important to me or, or leave?

And I chose to leave. And then immediately, as soon as I left, I was like, "I'm polyamorous." Like I p- I planted the flag. Like, I am polyamorous person. And then every person I've dated since, like that's one of the things I lead with is just like when I connect with someone, I'm polyamorous. You don't have to be.

You can be monogamous, but, you have to be okay with me being polyamorous, otherwise we're not gonna keep connecting.

I've had a lot of partners where they were polycurious and they're [00:42:00] like, "I don't know what it's like, but I'm down to try." But then they've asked me, "Oh, will you do it at my pace?

Will you date people at my pace and only connect with people? Can we have like these sort of tighter agreements?" And in the past, again, I've been very willing to compromise to help meet my partner's needs and- And in my current moment, I feel mostly unwilling to compromise, and there are certain things I'm open to considering.

But I value freedom so much, and from this place, I've dated folks, and it's been really, really empowering for me to just be like, "Look, I don't wanna control you, and I don't wanna be controlled." And so that's where the kind of relationship anarchy kind of comes in.

I still have a desire f- to meet eventually someone who I'll sort of like build a life around and be more of a nesting partner.

I, I like living with partners. So I do still want that as a desire. And, I'm also just really the foundation of my connection with people right now is I wanna be free, and I want you to be free, and I want us to both be free and able to celebrate [00:43:00] each other in our freest expression, even if it's hard, even if I don't necessarily- Mm-hmm

k- have compersion for everything that you do. I wanna be able to like, at least at some level, celebrate you for living your fullest life, and I wanna live my fullest life. and not have all of these compromises and slow down for people.

'Cause, I'm also a faster-- Like, my nervous system is fast-paced, and my emotional processing is kind of-- I'm like kind of quick with things, and I've had partners who tend to be slower. And so right now I'm like, "That's great that you're slower, and I don't, I don't in the moment feel, excited about slowing down for you.

I have a pace that I wanna connect at. And, if you can hang with it, great. I would love that. I would love to connect. And if you can't, also great. Like, we will go our separate ways." Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's really interesting to me because I'm actually more on the camp of compromising and, and- Mm ... you know, kind of meeting your partner, where they're at- Yeah

and going from there. And that's kind of what I teach my clients as well. Yeah. But that's also, you know, from my experience, which is a unique experience in a [00:44:00] w- way. I mean, not fully unique, but uncommon, which is that my partner Seth is monogamous. I don't know if you know- Yeah ... if you knew this. Yeah, yeah.

 so, you know, I think when the other person is monogamous, going from monogamous to dating this poly person who's going at their own pace, dating as many people as they want, you know, that can be really difficult. And I've never seen it work, right? and at the same time, I think that it depends on how important your polyamorous identity is to you, right?

Mm-hmm. Because for me, even though when I met Seth, I was polycurious, and I was very excited about this world, and I was going to play parties, most of my friends were poly and whatever. Yeah. I was also like, "I'm into you. You want us to slow down? Fine." I was okay with it, even though I g- I got frustrated at some points.

But, you know, you have a different journey. you- did that. You, did the compromising- Yeah ... for years and years on end. You must compromise. Yeah. And, like, right now you're at a point in your life when you are like, "This is my path. And, you know, you [00:45:00] either, jump on this train with me- Yeah ... or not, and that's fine," as opposed to, "Okay, let's, build that train together- Yeah

and then jump on it together," you know? Yeah. but yeah, how did that happen? Like, how did you go from, "I'm okay compromising," to actually, "I don't want to compromise"?

 I think for me, I just went-- I would tend to abandon my own needs and connection and just lean towards like, oh, just, like the compromise if there's a scale and on one side is my needs and on the other side is their needs, I would just collapse to their needs. Right. And so the compromises were always like really extreme.

So it wasn't really a compromise. It was you acquiescing. That's where I started. Yeah, that's where I started. And I, and eventually started to like build more and build more and build more and go more towards the middle where like true compromise was. In my last partnership, I would say, the last like serious partnership, I generally felt really good about the compromises that I was making.

I was like, "Yeah, these are like compromises and they're mostly meeting my needs." Like I f- I felt really good. Can you give us an [00:46:00] example? we as a couple were identified as polyamorous. We're like, "We are open. This is us." and there were times when there were periods of conflict or periods of low trust where she would ask for me to not connect with other people and to like really rein it in and not open new connections.

 and I, I-- That at the time felt really good to me. I was like, "Yeah, this makes sense. We're in a period of conflict. It's just gonna be messy if I add more people in. Like I, I'm gonna self-restrain and I'm not gonna do that." And so there were some compromises there that like actually felt really aligned.

And that was a big relationship for me. I felt like, she was the first person I was like, "Oh, I am like, I, I would be life partners with you.

Like I, I don't see anything that would get in the way of us just being partners for life." And I, we were anchor partners, and I thought that was, you know, to me a very cemented thing that we were gonna continue. So with that, I made a lot of compromises with who I would connect with and the pace I would connect with other people.

And I just really looked back on, [00:47:00] after that relationship ended, I looked back on a number of other relationships I'd had where I'd done something similar, and I think it used to be, like, way more extreme of, like, abandoning all of my needs to meet the needs of my partner and take care of their nervous system versus my own.

And I realized, you know, with her, it had not been so extreme of giving away a ton of needs and not honoring myself, but I just got to a point where I was like, "Yeah, I just, I'm done doing that. I wanna honor myself. I wanna honor my own needs. I use this analogy with people. So I climbed for 20 years, and I rock climbed for 20 years, and I can go out rock climbing with a beginner, and I can have a fun day.

But what we're gonna spend half the day doing is I'm gonna teach you how to tie knots. I'm gonna teach you, like, how to grab holds. I'm gonna, like, focus on the easier routes because that I know you'll be able to do. Maybe at the end of the day, I'll get something that a little bit is, like, more in line with what I'm wanting.

 and it'll be a fun day. It'll be a great day [00:48:00] in the sun out in the world climbing. But what I'm deeply craving at this moment is I wanna go out with somebody who's like, "Yeah, I know how to rock climb, too." Hmm. Great. Let's find something- Right ... that is challenging for both of us, where neither one of us has to, like, really...

There'll be areas where it's like, okay, you don't know this technique or this thing or maybe this method. Like, there'll be areas where I will wanna slow down for you, or you'll wanna slow down for me. But I wanna feel met in my pace. I wanna feel like I want to date people with a similar level of relational skill that I have, which is a lot.

I've been professionally trained now in relationships, so like- In polyamory. Yeah, in polyamory. So, like, it's a high bar for sure, and that's just where I'm at right now. I'm like, if you can't meet that bar, like, that's great. Like, I want you to go climbing, and if you wanna pay me to be your guide, I would love that.

I will go out and teach you the knots and do the basics all day for my job. But for my personal relationship, I wanna be met.

Mm-hmm. And of course, I'll make little compromises- Right ... here and there. I'm not saying I'm unwilling to compromise. But in general, like, I wanna be met and then [00:49:00] go from there-

 looking back on that relationship, when it ended, I saw a lot of ways in which I was compromising past my own needs so that I would be in, stay in connection with her.

And the conflict came from non-monogamy? Yeah, probably the biggest conflict that we had came from, came from non-monogamy. Yeah. Would you mind sharing a little bit more about that? This is probably a little painful to share, but I'm happy to share it. So yeah, the-- we had been having some struggles, but overall we were doing pretty solid I would say.

 So we were primary partners and she said, "I wanna shift things. I wanna be primary partners with myself and I wanna focus on my work and my business and these other aspects of my life. And, you can do whatever you want. Like I-- that's just for me." Like I wanted to choose that.

And at the time I had a very hard time hearing that and understanding it and it, it triggered a ton of insecurity for [00:50:00] me I felt very abandoned in that connection because of that. And in hindsight, I'm like, "Oh, I actually said this to someone else," like maybe, I don't know, four months ago, where I was like, "I wanna be in primary partners with myself, and I wanna focus on my business."

So now I totally have more empathy for it, and I see the other side. At the time, I didn't. It just felt like pure rejection of me and abandonment. And she was like, "Yeah, do whatever you want, like connect with other people. I'm just gonna do this." And so from that place, I started connecting with someone else, and this is where the kind of like intention and direction thing came in, where I was not super clear with either partner.

 I just deeply wanted sex. That was just the thing that I wanted. I felt a little rejected in my primary partnership, and I felt, unmet on, on some sexual needs. And so, yeah, at the time, I had a hard time just being like, "Yeah, this is actually just what I want." I think it's hard for, especially for men, and maybe for women, but especially for men to just name like, "Yeah, I do just want sex," because there's so much cultural stigma- Mm

[00:51:00] around like, "Oh, you just wanna fuck other people," or, "You just want this." You're a fuckboy. Like, "You're a fuckboy," whatever. It's really hard to be like, "Yeah, that is actually my deep desire," to claim that. You know, that's so interesting because, you know, I think it used to be kind of the other way around.

Like- Mm-hmm ... women couldn't say like, "I just want sex." Yeah. And, and it was just assumed that men w- we just want sex. But now I think culturally, at least in the non-mono- liberal, non-monogamous cir- circles that we- Yeah ... find ourselves in, it's become much more taboo for a man to be like, "I just wanna fuck"- Yeah.

than for a woman to do it. at, at certain points, I would just say that, and it would just be, and men would be like, "Fine," you know? Right. "Whatever." Yeah. Sounds good. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I empathize with my clients a lot because this is something we work on, is how do you get clear on your desire, and then claim it for yourself.

And there's some desires, if you flow along with the societal waters, it's like easy to claim. Like, "I want a marriage, and I want kids." Like easy, right? We can just go, and there's no shame in telling people. But if we just want sex, then there's so much shame involved, [00:52:00] and it's so hard to say, and it's like, "Oh, I don't want you to judge me for what I want and feel like I'm just a fuckboy or feel like I'm trying to use you or objectify you."

Exactly, yeah. I'm like, "No, it's just a need. Like, I'm just a man. I'm just a human and I have needs, and one of those needs is sex, and I love sex, and it's great." So yeah, so I think I was connecting from that place and just being a little dishonest about it, I would say. I was not super upfront, with either person, the new person or my, my partner.

And with the new person, you just wanted sex or was it, yeah? Yeah, yeah, I just wanted sex, and I-- and it sort of morphed into something else and this kind of play partnership thing, with a lot of feelings. And if I was being deeply honest, I was just compromising a lot because I just wanted sex. And so I was like, "Yeah, I'm here."

And I also... It was confusing at the time because I have all these, you know, skills and relationship skills, and it's been hard for me to figure out, like, yeah, I have all these tools in the tool belt. Like, when do I use them 'Cause it is easy for me if my partners have lots of feelings. I'm great at being supportive.

I can [00:53:00] empathize, I can support, I can just... it's like a really easy role for me to play, and that's also work sometimes. I get paid to do that. And so, I think at the time I was unclear about how much of that I was actually willing to take on, and I took on a lot of this and- So- ... a lot of, like, relational stuff.

Right, right. Yeah. Right. So you unintentionally, even though you wanted the relationship to be mostly sexual, because you were using your coach skills- Yeah. ... and, you know, empathizing and supporting this person emotionally- Yeah ... and just, like, showing up. You were like, "Oh-" I was just showing up, yeah. Yeah. Even, even though...

Did you communicate like, "Oh, I just, I want this to be mostly sexual," but then your actions were giving the- Exactly ... the, a different... Yes. Exactly. This happens so much. Yeah. No, I would just say it's really hard to have a purely sexual relationship without that stuff, right?

So that's, I think that's just- Yes ... a hard thing to do. And so again, like intention and direction, know where you're going, and if it gets a little-- if the course gets [00:54:00] altered, like you have to be willing to shift and meet the moment if you want to meet the moment, or if you don't, and make clear decisions.

 and at the time, I think I was just acting out of a lot of scarcity and, if I say no to this connection, then no one else is gonna wanna have sex with me, that kind of thing. or I'm not gonna get this need met elsewhere. And I f- like I said, I felt very abandoned and rejected in my- Mm

primary connection, and so it was, like, low self-esteem and low self-worth a little bit and, okay, I'm just gonna, you know, compromise too much and abandon myself. What, what was the word that you used? Acquiesce? Acquiesce, yeah- Yeah. Mm-hmm ... a lot to, to meet their needs and, and get that.

So it just became a really, really messy situation, and I just wasn't, I wasn't upfront and clear with either of them, I think in different directions. With my partner, I was like: "Oh yeah, I'm just going out into the world to find sex." And then with this other person, I was like: yeah, I'm down for m- I'm down for more relationship- that's fine."

Mm-hmm. And so it just got really messy, and that was ultimately, I think, the, the downfall, like a big downfall of that relationship that I had that was, you know, that, [00:55:00] that last big relationship was just being a little bit unclear in that and being dishonest, and it caused a lot of rupture, and we were never truly able to repair it.

 did you end up breaking up with the play partner? I did. I ended up breaking with the play partner.

I-- It, it was kind of tricky. So with my regular partner, I had over and over asked her, like: "Do you need me to end this relationship?"

 And she would say no. I'd say, "Okay, I'm not going to then." And then another week would go by and things were well, and then another, she would just get deeply upset and go through the whole phase again and say no.

So why would she get upset? Like, how would she see your relationship with the other person? She saw, the challenge for her, and this was... I, I don't wanna share too much about her in particular, but basically, because of the way it started, she never trusted it. So because the foundation of me connecting this, with this other person was dishonest, right?

 the foundation of that connection, where we met on the dating app, like, the [00:56:00] communication we had leading up to that, and I should just add in too, if I'm just taking accountability for the public here.

I, on my dating app, did not put that I had a partner. Mm. Like, I d- I didn't put that because I, I, I just felt rejected and I was like, "I'm just gonna go on this dating app." I don't have a partner anymore. She said that she's her own primary partner. Yeah, yeah, exactly. It, it might- Which is also, like, how did that, did that actually change your relationship?

Or, like, what did that even mean in practice, you know? Yeah, yeah. I don't think we, we stayed long enough to figure that, in that phase long enough to figure it out, because then it was like, then I started to connect with this other person, and then there's a bunch of conflict around it, and so it was just a big old mess.

Yeah, because I feel like, I mean, I feel like there's this trend of people being like, "I'm solo poly. I'm my own primary partner." And like, I know you said that you, you are there kind of at this stage. But I'm al- always like, what does that actually mean practically? You know what I mean? Yeah. Because I could say that I'm also my own primary partner in the sense that I prioritize my [00:57:00] wellbeing above everyone, like including my- Yeah

my partner, right? Yeah. sometimes it's, tricky, like when we use- Yeah ... like, terminology like that. Yeah, absolutely. Because then it caused this whole debacle- Yeah ... where you, like, felt rejected. But, did it actually change anything? Yeah . Or, or like, was she better off just saying "Hey, I would like to spend more time focused on my career and less"- Totally

"less time with, with you. We're still partners. I still love you, but I'm-" Yeah. That would've been a lot less triggering to my nervous system, I'll tell you that much. It would save me a lot of heartache. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. Then that, that's where I just try to get people, because the more you rely on the labels and the terms to communicate what you need to communicate, the more confusing it gets.

You do have to just define like, "I wanna be a primary partner and this is what it means to me." Or even just starting there, this is what I want. Like you said, I wanna spend more time with myself. I wanna focus on my business. I wanna hang out less. Like whatever that is, is just so much more clear than the labels, and the labels can really impact us.

 Yeah. But anyhow, sorry, I kind of interrupted you. No, it's great. So, so you were saying because the [00:58:00] foundation was- Right. So- Was, there was no trust there. Right, 'cause I was on the app. I didn't, you know, represent her. And I should say whoever I connected with the, on the app, my, my idea was to meet them and then have that be one of the first things I share.

It's, "Okay, I didn't put this on the app, but I do have a partner." And I did that, and I get why she didn't trust it, right? Like that's kind of fucked up to go on a dating app and not say like, "Hey, I have a partner." Again, informed consent. I didn't, I wasn't clear- Mm-hmm ... about like, hey, this is part of my life.

Like I have a person in my life. Right up front and center, right? That should be up front and center on a dating app, I think, for most of us. so yeah, because the foundation of that was not trustworthy, she never trusted it, and it did not matter that we repaired and then I took accountability.

So I would say, "Hey, I'm gonna go hang out with this person for a night."

And we had, we did have an agreement at that time that I wouldn't have sleepovers with her. And so I'd say, "Hey, I'm gonna go hang out at her place for the evening and come back." And then she would say, "I don't, I don't trust you. Like I think you're sleeping over there," and stuff like [00:59:00] that where I was like- Mm

you know. And from my side I'm like, "No, like I, you know, I, I fucked up. I took accountability and like I'm not doing it again." You know what I mean? Like, I'm telling you that I'm gonna go, which sucks.

 So it just became really challenging for me to not be trusted, and of course for her to have to be like, "I don't fucking trust you. Like you're not being trustworthy right now."

You know? Like- Yeah ... ugh, it's hard for both of us. I work with a lot of clients who've had that. Like for example, that, you know, they cheated or whatever, and now they're trying- Yeah ... to do it- Yeah ... openly and ethically, and it's really hard to get out of that dynamic- Yeah ... of, mistrust. And you know, like I always kind of tell my clients, "You h- kind of have to fake it till you make it."

You know? Wow. Yeah. You have to kind of like fake that you trust your f- Yeah ... your, your partner. Yeah. You know? If you really... Yeah. 'Cause otherwise it becomes like almost like a self-fulfilling prophecy. You know what I mean? And also you're, you're creating... So what she would do with me is create a bunch of situations for which she could find something that wouldn't be trustworthy. So like it's the same thing as like let me like go through your phone and look at [01:00:00] all your texts and some- then I'll find something that you said that was slightly incongruent with what you told me.

It was that kind of vibe, where it was like she would ask me What did you guys talk about? And I would share some of the things we talked about, and she would sort of like nitpick a thing and find a thing that was like maybe seemed different to her or I represented slightly different. It's something.

It's like if you're looking for like I'm just gonna find something to not trust about you, I'm sure you can find it. You know? Yeah. And if you're gonna like nitpick through- And also then you become hesitant to tell the truth too. Yeah, then I don't wanna share. Yeah. Yeah. So, so then, so then you start sharing a little bit less- It's an awful cycle

because you know if like you share openly- Yeah ... like she'll might get upset about this one thing or whatever. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Like, so again, it becomes like a self- Self-fulfilling ... self-fulfilling. Totally. So yeah. Yeah. And I mean, obviously not everyone can just, you know, should fake it till they make it because- Right

like maybe their partner is actually lying ... But like a lot of us, as you were saying, like fuck up once or twice and then learn our lesson. Right. And then like if, if you're in this relationship, you gotta trust, you know? Yeah. Yeah. We, we have to be willing to [01:01:00] be in relationship with agreements, in relationship with boundaries.

Like, I think a lot of us think of boundaries as a if you cross this line, you die. If this thing happens, then ... You know, if you break an agreement, then like your life is over. We're gonna break up. Like, it's a very ... It can be for some of us. Like, there are some agreements, sure, if you break it, like I'm just gonna end this relationship.

That makes sense sometimes. And I think in general we do have to be in relationship with our agreements. Like, sometimes they are unclear. Sometimes we go right up until the edge of an agreement. Sometimes they're, sometimes they're super clear and easy. Have sex with your partner with a condom. Okay. Like that one, there's not a lot of fuzziness on that.

But even on that one, right, it's like, well, we were kinda like dry humping on the couch, and we were grinding, and like we didn't put a condom on for that. Is that a broken agreement? I don't know, right? There is gray area. In, in, in human connection, there will always be gray area. As much as we wanna be super clear and clean on all this stuff, it's so important [01:02:00] to, and it's important to acknowledge there's just gonna be gray area, so we have to be willing, if we wanna be in human connection with other humans, to acknowledge that, that, some of this stuff is challenging, and it's gonna take a few iterations, and it might take a minute to clear up.

And I know that sucks to hear because we want our agreements to be like so clear.

There's so much gray area. Yeah. So there has to be room for having relationship to this stuff and not being super- Yeah, you're gonna fuck up

rigid on everything. Yeah, you're gonna fuck up. Yeah. And that's also what I tell my clients when they open up. It's like, you are most likely- Yeah. ... going to-- Exactly. There's gonna be an- Yeah ... agreement that's gray area. You're gonna go one way, and then it turned out- Yeah ... you shouldn't have or whatever. Yeah.

 okay. So- Since y- we've been talking about your coaching.

 how did you end up doing that, and what kind of work do you do? Yes, I think it was really, from the evolution of my own sexuality. I got to a place where in my early 30s where I moved through a lot of my own shame, where I claimed, yes, for myself, I am [01:03:00] polyamorous.

 And because of that, I decided to follow a career in that and be able to do that for other people.

So- Yeah, I think I'm in my third year of sex and relationship coaching, and my practice continued to shift and move along with the evolution of my own sexuality. But I love it. It's super, super fulfilling. And, yeah, I work with poly couples, I work with men, I work a lot with women. I have women who wanna work through trauma and women who want to, be able to connect with men in a way that's contained and feeling safe, and feeling like they're actually going-- their desires will be respected and honored and centered, and it won't be about the man's desire.

Yeah, like sexual trauma, which unfortunately are extraordinarily common in our society. to help women work through that a lot, that's a big part of my practice. And yeah, and get people really in touch with their desires and what- what's, pleasurable and enriching to their lives.

Yeah. Beautiful. Well, people should definitely reach out to you if they feel like they have some desires that they're having a hard time expressing [01:04:00] or realizing or, you know, if they feel like they need help also in their non-monogamous relationships.

okay, so now for real, my last question.

Okay. Great. One last question. What would you tell to a polycurious person? So basically- Um.. ... you know, it can be you at 21, you know, before you- Oh, yeah. ... you, you made that mistake or, or just, like, people who are listening who might be just, like, new to the podcast. Can I go through my list? I brought a list.

I have five things. Yes, you can go through your list. Okay. I got five things that I would tell someone who's new to polyamory. The first one is be really clear at first with yourself on your intention and your direction.

 The second thing is vary the pace. Like, if you're new, go slow.

 honor your pace. Go slow. Go slower than you think you need to. And slow doesn't mean arbitrary rules. Slow means, like, really taking your time. Yeah. What your body is telling you that feels good. What your body's telling you.

Yeah. Yeah. And, like, laying the waves, like NRE, like letting the [01:05:00] waves, like riding them all the way up and all the way down before you go and take action- Yes ... before you go and do something. So, like, pace. Like, if you're new, go slow. You just really cannot go wrong, I think, by going too slow. Mm-hmm. You can go wrong by going too fast.

Mm-hmm. That's the second thing. The third thing is learn how to hurt people. And this one sounds really shitty, but I have caused so much p- extra pain to people because I'm trying to be the nice guy. Mm-hmm. So I will hold back my feelings and I'll hold back things because I wanna take care of them and I don't wanna s- upset them.

Like, you are going to upset people. That's part of just being in a relationship. You will upset people. My clients hate to hear this. I, really force this a lot. But it's like everyone's "I don't wanna hurt anybody." you will, and you probably already are. And you can do it better. So when you hurt people- You might do it already

you're doing it right. Yeah So don't even say that you don't wanna do it 'cause you're already there for whatever the idea. Yeah. I get it. We don't wanna hurt people. It doesn't feel good. And, like, to be [01:06:00] in connection means to love people and to let them down. It means to hurt people and to heal them. All of these things are true.

It's all a part of it. So get used to that part. Don't shy away from it. You're gonna hurt people. Hurt them well. Hurt them with care. Be kind. Be direct. Say what you feel, even if it hurts them, especially if it's gonna hurt them. Just be kind, but say it. Like, holding back is not kind. Holding back just causes more hurt down the line when they find out or when something blows up.

So clear is kind. hurt people well. I like to give this analogy of, like, we are dancing. Like, when we're in a relationship with someone, we're dancing, and we're gonna step on their toes. Like, if you're learning how to dance. If you're an expert d- if you start day one and you're amazing and you're a perfect dancer, great.

But most of us have to learn how to dance. If you're learning, you're going to step on people's toes. So when you do it, you're not a bad person. You don't have to, like, shame spiral about it. You have to own, like, "Hey, I [01:07:00] stepped on your toe. Are you okay?" Check in with the other person. If you immediately go to shame spiral and like, "I'm such a bad person.

I stepped on their toe. Oh my God, I hurt them," like, you're also leaving them behind. So step on their toes. You're going to. You're not a bad person. And then go get them a fucking Band-Aid. Like, go take care of them. Go like, "Can I, can I care for you? Do you need an ice pack?" Like- Yeah ... "I hurt you."

 give them a hug. Have a conversation. Like, it's not all about you. so that's a piece. Okay, the fourth one is jealousy is a teacher.

So jealousy teaches us so much, but one of the biggest things is it teaches us what we desire. Jealousy is unclaimed desire. So if I'm jealous that my partner is out connecting with someone else and they're having fun and they're having sex, maybe I wanna have more sex with my partner.

Maybe I wanna go out on dates and have sex and, and have more fun with my partner. So there's, like, use your jealousy as a teacher to tell you what you deeply desire, and don't use it to stop them from doing something else. So if I'm jealous because my partner is doing something, [01:08:00] what I don't wanna do is go and say, "Stop doing that thing," because then it just kills their erotic energy, it kills their energy, and, and nobody wants extra boundaries like that, in that way.

So if you're jealous, take that as learning your own desire, and that's beautiful. Now you have a great desire. Go and tell your partner when they come back from that date, like, "Hey, there's something-- There's more things I wanna do with you." That just leads to more connection. Who doesn't wanna hear that their partner wants them and wants to take them out on dates and do more fun things and have more sex?

Like, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, you know, I really love that, and at the same time, what I've also experienced is that, you know, as much as I'm all for people's autonomy and all of that and, and, you know, as much as possible to try to focus on your relationship instead of, like, what your partner is doing with s-someone else.

Yeah. At the same time, I do think that if you're feeling, like, really jealous and you know that that's something that you have to work within yourself, it is okay sometimes to ask your partner to slow down- Yeah ... while [01:09:00] you work on it, right? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So it's like, whenever you go on a date My nervous system is going nuts.

And yes, I know that, like, I need to work on that, But, I don't wanna go through that every week.

Like, can you please just, like- Yeah ... do it every couple of weeks or every month while I get used to that- Mm-hmm ... and while I work on it.100%, yeah, which leads me to number five.

Oh, look at that. That is number five, yeah. Which is own your needs. So if what comes out of this is like, "Oh, I actually just need you to slow down here. I need this to happen less. I cannot sustain this level of tumultuousness in my nervous system," like, ask for that, and ask for really what you need, which might be that.

Might be like, "Hey, I need my partner to slow down." And they're an autonomous person. They get to say, like, "Yes, I'm gonna slow down," or they get to say, "No, actually." That's up to them. They get to have their choice. but it's really up to you. Like, no one's gonna slow down because your nervous system is going crazy.

Most people won't. But if you specifically ask, like, be really clear. Ask [01:10:00] for your needs. Don't just say like, "Hey, I need you to slow down." Like, what does that mean? I, I can only sustain one date a week for you, you having one date a week with other people. I can only sustain this. be super clear, and, own your needs.

Just own it and ask for it. And again, your partner gets to say yes or no. They get to opt in or not.

 hopefully they're able to, to opt in a lot, more than they're able to opt out. But it's up to you to advocate for your own needs. So, like, ask for what you need, and be really clear about it. Yeah. Beautiful. Thank you so much. That was amazing. Well, Sam, it was so great to have you, and thank you so much for all the tips.

I'm sure listeners are gonna get so much out of this episode. So a, a pleasure, and I'm sure I'll have you back at some point. So thank you so much for sharing today. Yeah, I would love to. Pleasure to be here, and thanks for having me.