Mr. K: I mean, if it were up to me, I would have two primary partners long term for as long as I could, and they'd be best friends and I'd be best friends with their boyfriends. And that's like my utopia. But in reality, you have to compromise so much of your wants. Rarely do I think, like, people come together on the same page. And I think that that's where like, most of the turmoil and complication comes around from poly and like, why in a lot of cases, like the juice isn't entirely worth the squeeze.

Fernanda: Hi everyone, this is Polycurious. I am Fernanda, your host. and today I am bringing you a unique episode. When I started the podcast, I set out to find stories that gave a true picture of non-monogamy Both the good parts, but also the difficult ones. and in this episode, Mariah and I talked to Mr. Kay, who is a friend of ours and someone who tried polyamory and realized that it might actually not be for him. He told us that unlike other people in the community, when he started his journey, he wasn't really looking to have many sexual partners, but rather he wanted to have two long term committed relationships. And, he actually tried that and had a primary and a secondary partner for about three years before breaking up. Most recently, he also dated someone who had a primary, but they also ended up breaking up that relationship because they weren't really aligned on what they wanted. So from his personal experience and five years observing the polyamorous community, he tells us why he thinks that having two long term committed relationships is actually very difficult, if not impossible. And why now he's ensure that polyamory is for him, despite considering himself a very poly person. I can't wait to hear what you guys think of this episode. So here's our conversation with Mr. K.

Mariah: Welcome, Mr. K. this is one of my best friends. We met a few years ago and have just really hit it off and has been my partial therapist whenever we hang out. we're just always there for you.

Mr. K: Likewise.

M: So I'm so happy to have you today. I think you such an interesting story.

F: Yeah, I'm so excited too. I feel like I've been meaning to have this conversation with you for a while now and I feel like we might have started to have this conversation at some point, but we never finished. So now it's the time. And now not only do I get to have this conversation, but so many people get to hear it. So I'm so excited.

Mr. K: Yeah, I'm excited to

F: So Mr. K, can you just, maybe tell us a little bit about your background, what you do for work? Anything that you want to share about yourself?

Mr. K: Yeah, I grew up in the Northeast. I moved around a lot as a kid. I think I was probably not in the same town for more than three years at any given point in my childhood.

F: all within the U.S. yep.

Mr. K: Within the U.S. at the time. That is frustrating for a kid. But also as an adult, I'm very grateful for it because I think the best parts of my personality are a result of having to constantly reinvent myself. Yeah. Let's see what I do for work. I run a company, and we do kind of venture capital and finance consulting for a bunch of different funds and portfolio companies. What else can I tell you about myself? What else do you want to know?

F: That's all I need to know. I mean, I know that you are a great human.

M: Oh, and also really into creative projects. We've worked on so many huge projects together that I'm always so happy to be part of.

Mr. K: Yes. I ran stage production when I was at college. 4. I did a master's there, too. So I. For five years as I was doing stage production. And I love building and creative projects, for sure.

F: Yeah, I. We like to get weird.

M: We like to have fun.

F: Creative fun. yeah. I think one of the first times that we actually had a proper conversation was when you guys were painting a huge mural. UV Mural that's in your backyard, right? That's still standing there that Mariah designed.

M: Oh, yeah. It was such a fun project because we were just together one night, and Mr. K was just like. He had just moved in after his breakup, and I really just want a mural in the backyard. And I was like, can I try? I've only painted one thing in my life, but I was just like, I want to try it. And so you ended up building this huge 8 by 12 by 12 foot. Yeah. Wooden pose for me to just get creative on. I'm obsessed with UV Everything, so I, of course, made it UV But I'm also very, inspired by anime. So it had this, like, moon in the center of the forehead and these, like, glowing eyes with these plants kind of growing into them. And, yeah, it was just such a fun project. Me, Mr. K, and Fernanda all worked on it together a lot of the time.

F: I mean, it was mostly them. I just, like, came to help at the very end. But I remember that they clearly also, because it was the day that we found out that, Biden had become the President.

Mr. K: So we was that the same day.

F: It was that day. And we were all in a festive m mood and I went there and help paint that, beautiful mural that's still standing there and that, will be there forever. And I feel like also that, mural project is what brought you two guys together even for sure.

M: More.

F: Yeah.

M: It was such like art therapy for both of us. It was.

Mr. K: That's when we got really close because we would just come over and be therapists for each other the entire time we were painting. yeah. I have like the most creative friends in the world. I'm just constantly humble by them. I don't feel like I'm nearly as creative as they are, but I feel like I'm a very good executor. So anytime I can enable my friends to do really cool art projects, I'm allard.

M: Are you kidding me? You're so creative. So we just did this event called what a Drag, which was like six to eight contestants. I don't remember how many, but we all performed and it was just so much fun. And then we're also doing Dungeons and Dragons where you created this whole story from scratch. Like, give yourself some.

Mr. K: That's true. I have my moments. But my favorite thing is because we have such amazing, talented friends is I just love building the greenhouse and watching the trees grow.

M: Yeah. And I think that a lot of the Poly Community, it kind of merged with the Burner Community as well. Like people who have gone to Burning Man and that whole community is just so weird and creative and just like we all have our full time jobs that are very serious, but then we have this creative outlet to just connect with people and work with each other on projects.

F: That's amazing.

M: So just to get started, how you kind of got introduced into poly or into non-monogamy

Mr. K: Oh, Man. So this is like a five year journey for me. five years ago I had gotten out of a long term monogamous relationship with, the partners very close to me. And we were very in love when we broke up. But it just like clearly we were going to different directions. She wanted a very white picket fence kind of lifestyle and that was not obviously what I was going for. so we broke up and I kind of moved on with my life and I reconnected with a friend that I had known in college who, had been introduced to poly already and had experienced some of it. We kind of talked a lot about poly concepts then and they appealed to me in really important, in big ways. I'm a naturally pretty non jealous person. and when I got into poly, and I'll talk about that more later. I have a lot of natural tendencies toward compersion. So it just seemed like it made sense to me. So I started dating around, in New York and then eventually found a girl on OkCupid who ultimately became my partner of three years. and we talked about having a open relationship pretty much from the get go. and from there that's when I really got into the poly scene. Got it.

M: Was that Lucy?

Mr. K: That was Lucy, yes. And it was interesting. All things. I think it's hard at first. I remember I went to my friend's bachelor party LA and I came back to New York and we had the first conversation about another guy that she slept with when I got back. And it was a little bit weird having that first combo. But then honestly after that everything felt very, very natural. and it just kind of fit for me in a lot of ways. I didn't mind when my partner went out and saw other people and my genuine, honest first reaction to hearing about when she would have fun with another guy would be excitement for her. So I kind of felt like, okay, like maybe this is the lifestyle for me and something that I want to pursue. And that kind of started my five year journey into poly. Yeah.

F: Nice, so how old were you when all this happened?

Mr. K: I think I was turning 30 at the time.

F: And what was it that attracted you to the idea when you were introduced to it?

Mr. K: I have always had in the back of my mind that like I always thought that it was so strange watching movies when someone would cheat on their significant other and it would be this disaster and it just didn't make any sense to me. And I'm like, if you love someone, why don't you just let them go? You know, go for it like a couple of times if they're going to come back to you anyway. It just, it always mentally and practically in my mind, philosophically just kind of fit. I never really deeply understood what the big deal was if your partner went and slept with someone else, if they still cared and loved about you. I didn't even realize it was an option like a lot of people, I think until you. I met that girl from San Fran and she kind of opened my eyes to like a lot of the different relationship structures that she had sort of experimented with.

F: Yeah, it's interesting. Why do you think that you are not as jealous as other people?

Mr. K: That's a really good question. I think a lot of poly has to do with wiring. I actually am a, very strong believer, having been through this and had multiple poly relationships, that some people are naturally very wired to this lifestyle. They're communicative, they're naturally compulsive and some people just aren't. And both things are totally okay. And I think that like the kind of people that this might work for, it's a very double edged sword and it's very tricky. I actually think that a lot of the values around poly where people are like, oh, you know, you can work through your jealous tendencies and you can kind of like rewire your brain a little bit to think more poly and kind of be more open to it. I think that's true, but I think there are significant limits to that reality. some people need more mental protection around their relationships when there's nothing wrong with that. And so if you know, you have a partner who's naturally very jealous, or you yourself have a lot of jealous tendencies, but you're intrigued in the concept, foray into this is probably going to bring a lot more pain and suffering than it is happiness.

M: When it came to your relationship with Lucy, I know that you said that you pretty much got over the jealousy aspect after the first conversation. Yeah. Or conversation. And was it really jealousy or was it just kind of like a little bit uncomfortable and unknown territory?

Mr. K: Yeah, I would say it's the latter. I think it was just having that first moment where I wasn't used to talking about things like that. Don't get me wrong, I'm not impervious. There's definitely been jealous moments in my relationships. there was one with Lucy in particular where she was dating a person. I'm very kitchen table where if I'm having a poly relationship, it's really important for me to be friends with my metamours like super, super important to me. And I think that that takes like the boogieman effect out of it a lot and makes things a lot easier. And there was one time when that particular partner was dating someone who didn't have any interest in meeting me. And I got really jealous at that moment because I was like, why wouldn't they want to meet me? I don't understand.

F: So that was so interesting. And what was their reason?

Mr. K: So I just don't think that they were super poly at the end of the day. Which is another reason to be jealous, I guess. Right. Because I'm just like, okay, well this partner's approaching it from a very different angle. It was a short term relationship on their part anyway. So it never kind of came to a head. But it's not like I'm completely un jealous and I don't care what my partner does any of the time ever. But I am much more open minded and flexible, I think, than a lot of people around those concepts naturally. which is good.

M: Yeah. And it seems like it wasn't in kind of what you wanted out of your relationship to something that isn't aligned with how you see this kitchen table vibe going. Yeah, it's jealousy, but at the same time it's not aligned.

Mr. K: Yeah, yeah. I think that's my general issue with poly in general, over the years is that I'm a huge math toor. But if you think about it just structurally, when you have two people, there's one connection. And if you have three people, there's three connections. If you have four people, there's six connections that you have to worry about. And every time that those things happen, the complexity around the relationships is like significantly more. And I actually think that because there's so many different ways to do poly. Like you can be emotionally poly, you can be open, right. Like where you're just seeing other people and casualually date, you can, you know, just be sexually open. Right. Like there's so many different ways to do it because of that truth. Rarely do I think like people come together on the same page. And I think that that's where like most of the turmoil and complication comes around from poly and like, why in a lot of cases, like the juice isn't entirely worth the squeeze. Because when you walk into a situation where everyone has different ideas about the relationship, which is every time, I'm sure there's some utopia where three people got together and they're just in a perfect situation, or four people or whatever it is. But the vast majority of the time people are in different pages and in terms of their objectives and wants. And that causes way more emotional distress than it does a lot of comfort a lot of times in my eyes. In my experience. My view on it is that a lot of people, when they first get into poly, look at it, is that, I can have my cake and unit two situation, which is the furthest possible thing from the truth. Because in reality you have to compromise so much of your wants based on the relationship structure that you find yourself in. So I actually don't think long term things work out when people have different wants and needs. It can with two partners. So what I mean by that is like for Instance, so you and your boyfriend, if you have a very strong relationship with your boyfriend and you care about him deeply and he's monogamous, never wants to meet people, but then you have another partner who is like very kitchen table and has to actually meet and know their metamor in order to be comfortable, then at the end of the day, in all likelihood, and this is like a harsh truth, but it's what I've found to be, typically what kind of unfolds is one of those relationships will break down and if you're hierarchical, that primary partner, which is your boyfriend, you'll let the other one break down. But it will. Unless you're lucky enough to find someone else who's very comfortable with having a situation where your boyfriend and your other partner don't hang out. Sure, like that can happen for some time, but imagine a 10 year relationship where you're in love with two men and they never actually talk to each other, ever. it's really unlikely. I think in my opinion now there's also nothing necessarily wrong with that. And what I mean by that is I think that poly lends itself to people who are comfortable having several short term relationships and maybe one long one. So if you're prioritizing your primary partner, that partner you could be with for a very long time but constantly break off the other relationships that may not coincide exactly with what his needs are like poly I think is very good for avoidant attachment. People like, who don't really want to be super close, they want to be close but not, you know, they're okay dating someone for a couple months or for a year here and there. and if that's what makes you happy, I actually don't think there's anything wrong with it at all. but I don't think that at least in big cities like New York and San Fran or LA, where there's a Poly scene I don't see a whole lot of like healthy structural relationships that lend itself to strong long term partnerships.

F: Why don't you tell us about your personal experience and how that informed these insights that you are sharing. Because I think you mentioned you wanted two long term girlfriends, right?

Mr. K: Yeah. When I first heard about poly, I have like a really big heart and I'm like, well you still do. I still do.

M: Golden retriever.

Mr. K: Yes. And I.

F: Not anymore. After poly, I don't have a big.

Mr. K: No, no, it's still there. But it's funny, like what was so appealing to me when I first had those initial conversations That I feel very capable of loving two people at one time. I know that that's something that I can do. And so when I got into the scene, like, what I actually was looking for is like having a couple. Like, I think what I quickly learned is from a time constraint perspective, like two is the absolute maximum if you really care about people. For me, but having two partners, long term relationships, both of which I invested myself in. And so I set out to do that and I did it. I dated two women for three years. and they were, you know, they were friends. They weren't super close friends, but they definitely were friends.

M: And that relationship was. You had your primary and then a secondary.

Mr. K: A secondary, correct. Yeah. so my secondary.

F: And your primary was Lucy.

Mr. K: Correct. My primary is Lucy and we'll call my secondary Corinne. And so I dated both these women for three years. At the time that I started dating Corinne, she had another partner who I was close friends with. They ultimately split off in the middle of us dating, which was hard to navigate, but we were able to do it. It's interesting when I got into the scene, being that that was my objective, I was really disappointed in meeting a lot of the people in the ``yene because what I found out was most of the people in the scene, I think men and women were using poly as an excuse just to sleep with as many people as they possibly could. Not that I'm knocking anyone's lifestyle or choices, but when I got into it I had a different view on kind of what I would expect to walk into. And when I found in the scene is that I was actually an anomaly as a guy that was just trying to have two women partners that I cared about mostly and spend my time with most of the people were having hundreds of short term relationships, left and right and burning the relationships, their primary partners just because they weren't able to manage their primary relationship in a reasonable way. A lot of the people that I think that I've seen in the Poly scene are enticed by the idea, but are engaged in really toxic relationships. and they're doing it for the wr reasons.

F: Yeah. And what are some of those wrong reasons? Like if someone listening is like, I think I like this, but am, I one of those people that believe that they can have their cake and eat it too, but actually it might not be right for me? What do you think? Are those wrong reasons?

Mr. K: Yeah, I think one thing I've seen over and over and over again with many, many examples is partners who are looking for something outside of their current relationship and they pursue it because they don't want to leave that current partner. But in reality it ends up being a situation where it just causes more pain and suffering. Like that happens a lot.

M: I think that I definitely experience that. Yeah, I can totally see it. It's just like, because there's part of it that you understand that every relationship brings something different out, in you. And there's something really enticing about that. And especially if you can make it work where you're accepting both relationships as being different and can make that work 's great. But most of the time it really is coming from a place of like, I'm missing this 100% and now I need to fill it some other ways.

F: But why would that be wrong? I mean, it depends on what you're missing, right? Like if, oh, I'm missing love or I'm missing some very basic characteristics of what a healthy relationship looks like. It's one thing, but in a way the reason why I'm non-monogamous is because I'm missing some things with my partner. And it doesn't mean that I'm missing anything important. But my partner is a certain kind of person and I'm missing being with a different kind of person. It doesn't mean that, it doesn't mean that I would necessarily want to be with someone who's not like my partner all the time. But sometimes I do want to be with that type of person, you know, so in a way I am fulfilling a need that my partner is not, providing. In a way it's nothing important. Like I feel loved, I feel, seen. we have great communication. But that's why I'm asking what are the wrong reasons? Because fulfill one need for the other. It's basically why we do it. Right?

Mr. K: Yeah, right. I think there's something very seductive about the concept of like there's different aspects of, of personalities that fulfill different parts of you. and I experienced that. So like that's very. Even when my relationships, my two long term relationships, like I said, they both last about three years. Both of those women gave me tremendously different things that were incredibly gratifying. I think where the trick comes is if you are feeling unfulfilled in a current relationship somehow and you start to pursue another one and you're not necessarily going back to that initial relationship to giving it what it needs, it's very tricky because that first relationship you feel like you might be, I think sometimes paying enough attention to it or saying to yourself, okay, well I'm getting XYZ out of this initial relationship, so it's meaningful enough for, to me. But the second that you have two partners, you might be getting what you need from both partners. Right? Like you might be getting like, like a good sexual relationship for one partner and intellectual stimulation from another or whatever it is. But that first partner, when maybe what they actually needed is, you know, like a better sexual relationship and you know, more sexual attention, but the second that you get that second partner, all of a sudden that shifts to them and now you're getting fulfilled, but they're not. Right. So that's where I think it becomes incredibly treacherous and very difficult.

M: Yeah, I just wanted to say too, I want to remove the idea that it's wrong. You know, it's not that it's wrong, it's just, it makes it a lot more difficult. And I think especially because people who are non-monogamous we are a very small percentage of the type of relationships that are out there. And because of that, we don't have too much of a guiding light of what those relationships should look like or can look like until this podcast. But it's just a way of making things a lot more complicated and not necessarily having the tools to be able to sustain all of those relationships.

F: Yeah, I think what you just said actually, made sense to me because for example, something that I'm very conscious of that I don't know if everyone would be able to do this is like, I might be having a good sexual relationship with a partner, but then the day that I have a date night with my own partner, I am conscious of still doing the same things I do for or the other partner. I'm still going to shave and put makeup on. And I often try to remind myself and be like, okay, I'm gonna think of my primary as if this was a new person with the new person. We tend to, put that extra effort and then it's very easy to get comfortable if you'getting it from one person. So that's something that I'm conscious of that I can see how other people might not be conscious of and might do all the things to be sexy the night that they are with someone else, but the night that they, with their partners, they're in their pajamas and don't really put that extra effort because why I have a date coming up or whatever it is.

M: Yeah, well, it's interesting too because a lot of the times when you're meeting a new partner or you're starting to get in the groove with a new partner, you have that new relationship energy which I think we've talked about before, but with that too. A lot of the times that does bring new color to your current relationship as well, which is one of the beautiful things about it. What I experience experience. When I started dating someone new in my previous relationship, I found that communication became a lot more important and a lot of the attention that I was giving to this new person, I was also recreating that in my relationship as well. Did that last long? Not necessarily, but you know, I think it gives you the opportunity to kind of reassess where you are at in your primary relationship as well.

F: Yeah. And another important thing that I feel like I've learned is do put the same effort into your primary or more effort if you are hierarch into your primary relationship. But also don't expect your primary relationship to be your secondary relationship or your other partners. Right. So I'm still gonna bring in all the effort to make my primary relationship work, but that doesn't mean that set is going to act like the other person. And I feel like there needs to be an openness to the differences between the two people. So you value them both for the way that they are and all these are attributes and things that you develop and that not everyone has the ability to see those things and to not get too comfortable and stop really putting the effort or caring for your relationship because you have another relationshipeah.

Mr. K: I think it requires a tremendous amount of intention if you're getting your needs met from two different spaces, that you're also meeting the needs of both partners. I think that's very tricky. It can be done, but it's hard. The way I think about it is like most long term relationships fail, right? Like monogamous relationships, if you think about marriage rates and let's say it's half, that means that most people are not able to even maintain long term relationships. So then if you introduce this tremendous amount of additional complexity because if in a completely closed off environment, you will probably be able to maintain your long term relationship through its hardest moments. But if you're getting a lot from another partner and your other relationship goes through one of its hardest moments, it's much more likely to break down. And I don't. And again, I just want to be clear. I don't think that there's anything wrong with that. Meaning that there are lots of people that would be much happier in situations where they have several medium term relationships with different people. And if that's the kind of person you are, then poly probably a good option. Right. But if you're really trying to have significant long term relationships, it's definitely workable. It is doable, but it is much, much, much harder. And so I think it's about prioritizing what is important to you.

F: Yeah. So, yeah. So tell us, how was your experience trying to maintain two relationships for three years and what were some of the challenges that you encountered in that process?

Mr. K: Yeah, I think it was difficult. in a lot of ways it definitely put additional pressure on my primary relationship. For me, I don't think that primary relationship, even if it was a monogamous, was right for me in the long term anyway. So I think it's okay. But for sure, when I wanted to see my other partner also given that my primary partner was much more open than poly, it definitely put a lot of emotional distress in the relationship. That was obvious to me when I wanted to see Corinne, my other partner.

F: And I mean, you mentioned that anyways, that relationship wasn't meant to be. But, was that one of the reasons why you ended up breaking off their relationship or did you find any ways to manage that? Like when you wanted to go and see Corinne and Lucy was disturbed or maybe not very happy with it? Like, how would you deal with that?

Mr. K: Yeah, I mean, like, clearly we came up with a system because it lasted for three years. So, it worked. but a lot of it was negotiation and compromise. I mean, if it were up to me, I would have two primary partners long term for as long as I could and they'd be best friends and I'd be best friends with their boyfriends and that's like my utopia.

F: And they would both have boyfriends. Is that part of the deal?

Mr. K: Oh, for sure. I actually love that. I love my meatmours My favorite thing is to be best friends. My metamours And the coolest thing about poly that when it works out is like, I remember dating Lucy for a while and there was a brief period where we kind of dated another couple. Not formally, but effectively we were re spending all spending a lot of time together. There was a beautiful summer where we were all texting each other individually and as a group. And if one person was having a bad day, we'd nudge their partner to kind of, you know, make sure that they were taken care of. And because that's like bliss to me. I think that's a really beautiful moment where everyone's getting along and if we're up to me, I'd have a wife and a girlfriend and I'd be best friends with both her boyfriends. I think Mr. K realizes that situation is pretty much unattainable. Maybe, there's a world where that's real. But to find everybody who is in the exact same page about the situation is just so insanely rare and difficult to find that the process of actually trying to pursue that objective and that goal would lead me to so much suffering because everyone be on different pages and everyone would have a hard time with it. And the reality of actually taking that journey is not really worth it.

F: Right. But what was hard about it? Like you mentioned that Lucy was a little uncomfortable when you wanted to see corn and that you eventually figure out a system. what was that system?

Mr. K: There wasn't one really. To be honest. I mean I like, like, I guess, I guess in my mind there was a lot of compromises. Like for instance, if it were up to me and I could get whatever I wanted, I would, you know, trade weekends and spend a lot of time with both of them. But you know, Lucy really would rather have me see that other partner once every other week. and if I push for more than that, it would cause tremendous stress in the relationship. So that's what I mean about whatever you want, you're probably not going to get based on what the other person's needs and wants are. So even that small amount that I wanted to see the other partner I think caused a lot of distress in the relationship that ultimately contributed, but wasn't, I wouldn't say, the primary reason for its ultimate demise.

M: Yeah. And like you were saying before, it's just hard to get everyone on the same page. Cause everyone looks at Pauli and non-monogamy from a different light and from a different facet. And for everyone to like be aligned is very, very difficult.

Mr. K: Yep.

F: Yeah. So why do you think their relationship with Lucy ended?

Mr. K: I think the relationship with Lucy ended for reasons deeply outside of poly. We were just not compatible with people. and it wasn't meant to be. And even if we were monogamous, I think that it would have ultimately spun out out. So I'm definitely not blaming poly on that relationship and how it went. but I would say that it definitely contributed to it ending quicker, which may be a good thing. In that case. I think what I worry about in my next relationship, I ultimately want a long term partner. And if I find somebody, you know, depending upon what their relationship style is and what they're interested in and committing to it and adding that sort of complexity into that relationship, if I am serious about it lasting a long time.

M: And when things ended with Lucy, you continued your relationship with Corinne and what did that end up looking like? This is your secondary now. Were there expectations to become primaries from either side?

Mr. K: Yeah, that was hard enough itself. it's interesting. Corinne and I, while we were dating, in the middle of usating, her and her primary partner broke up. And I, before you broke up? Before I broke up with Lucy and navigating that was delicates because I was friends with her primary, I tried to be a very objective sounding board and not insert myself into, you know, when they were re frustrated with each other, not try to make a case for one thing or the other and just be a listener and was able to really be there for Corinne as she split with that partner. I think it was seven years at the time. So it was a very, very intense breakup. And we continue to date. The thing I think about that whole situation is because I was very limited in my ability to interact with her in the way that I would have wanted to because of Lucy. We had developed over a three year period of cadence of how to be together that was more distant than I would have wanted it to be, but that was the reality of it. And when Lucy and I broke up and I think I went into a period of my life where I needed to really explore kind of who I was again and figure out the kind of person I wanted to be with long term, if I even wanted to be with anybody and go through this whole period of new self exploration after I had become single again, that throughew the relationship with grin to a lot of turmoil. It's funny, we never had a conversation about becoming primaries because we had been secondaries for so long with each other. But I could tell that the fact that I was only dating her, but I was still trying to figure out who I was after a three year relationship, definitely. Ultimately then, not so long after Lucy and I broke up, caused the demise of that second relationship too.

M: Do you feel like it had a lot of, kind of strings attached to your relationship with Lucy in a way because you did date them for so long at the same time that when you broke up with Lucy, that it now kind of reminded you of that relationship or had some sort of connection there as well?

Mr. K: 100%, yeah. I think like I had just gotten into a rhythm with this person. Over a three year period where I was in a primary relationship and we had a certain dynamic that when I went into this next phase of my life, essentially we were effectively dating the exact same way. It wasn't some de facto thing where that relationship was like now going to be my primary relationship just because I had broken with Lucy. We cared about each other a lot. But I also had felt very limited in my relationship with Lucy, just even like making friends and socializing in certain ways that I was very eager to come out of my box a little bit after that relationship. And because of that, I think a lot of the time that I spent doing that and exploring, you know, not even romantically, just like meeting new people and making new friends, I think, that caused a lot of friction, which is regrettable, but it's just how it went down.

F: I see. Interesting. So you feel like you were somehow restricted in your relationship with Lucy and, and therefore the version ah, Corinne knew of you was that restricted version.

Mr. K: Exactly.

F: And then when you broke up with Lucy, you were this free flowing person and that didn't really match with Korean's expectations of you or what she was used to up until that point.

Mr. K: Yeah. And like in super fairness to her, I probably wasn't as attentive as I should have been as a partner at that point anyway. I was probably giving about the same, or maybe a little bit less attention than I was normally giving to her. But now I had all the space to give her more if I had wanted to. But it was so important for me to like use that additional space that was created to kind of reinvent myself and that you. No, that just broke the relationship.

F: Right. Because I mean from her perspective it was probably like, oh, now he's free.

Mr. K: Exactly.

F: To give me all this attention, but he's not choosing to do that. So I bet that that must have been hard. But I mean, you were in your own right to do whatever you felt like was right for you, right?

Mr. K: Yeah, I mean, of course I feel bad about it. that person was very important to me for a very long time. and I'm still friends with them. But yeah, I just think that I was entering a phase in my life where I was eager to get out of a relationship that wasn't working for me. And the process of me kind of growing as a person after that, relations_hip ended took a lot of personal time and that probably took a lot away from what, you know, we could have been.

M: Yeah. Becausee whenever we go through breakups whether it's monogamous or not, there is this period of, okay, what is actually right for me right nowus. You've kind of been living in a story of trying to make something work that isn't necessarily right. And when that space opens up, a lot of the times after breakup, you change as a person.

F: And how long ago did that happen?

Mr. K: Maybe eight months ago. God, it feels like longer that.

F: Right. And tell us about these eight months of, self exploration and next chapter of your life.

Mr. K: So when I was dating Lucy, I, think that there was a lot of, effort on her part to prevent me from seeing new people and hang out with new people. Because she knew, and this is not her fault's just the reality situation. She knew that I was very poly focused and I was looking for emotional connections with other people, and she was very open. So I think that she was very scared that if I got to know more people in our whole poly community, that she would lose me even more. And she was probably right, honestly. So I don't blame her at all. But what that resulted in when we were dating is I felt very constrained in the people that I could meet and the amount that I could sort of do things on my own, and kind of branch out. And so when our relationship ended, I kind of felt like myself again. That was my primary thing that I always said. When we broke up, I was just able to go out and be outgoing and meet new people and make new friends. I moved around a lot as a kid, so. So it's very natural for me to be put in new situations constantly. I really thrive on it, and it makes me very happy. Like, it's actually a huge part of my personality. So when we broke up, I went on this kind of, like, huge journey of making lots of new friends that I probably would have made years ago had I not been in that relationship. Again, like, not harping on Lucy's kind of approach, I don't blame her for any of that. But once I was out of that relationship, it kind of freed me to.

F: But it's so interesting because. Because people assume that being in open relationships means more freedom. But in your case, you were in an open relationship and you didn't feel more free.

Mr. K: Significantly less, for sure. Yep. again, because that goes back to, like, compromising with your partner and what their particular needs are. But, you know, that's even in monogamous relationships, people do that. Right? Like, if,

F: Yeah. And your relationship is less freedom.

Mr. K: Right. Like, your relationships in general mean less freedom. That doesn't mean that you should never be in a relationship. Right. You always need to compromise if you love skydiving and your partner's terrified of you skydiving all the time, but you love them deeply, like maybe you'll stop skydiving. Right. It's just a reality of once you enter a relationship, you're willing to accept those compromises. And that's what happened. But once I got out of it, that's when I really started to sort of meet, like what I would consider now my core family friend group, who I really love and spend a lot of time with.

M: We love you too.

F: That's great. I know that after you broke up with these two relationships that you had, you ended up dating someone who had a primary, which you had done already, but while you also had a primary. So I was curious how that relationship was like, because I bet there's a lot of people who are dating people who are in primary relationships and they might wonder how to do it.

Mr. K: Right, Right. So when, when I got out of my relationship with Lucy, I kind of met this new friend group. I was still dating Corinne at the time actually. and I started dating, this new girl, Riley. She has a primary partner who, is a very close friend of mine and who I love very much. This partner that I had, Riley, she was engaged to this guy who, like I said, as a close friend. And it was kind of perfect because I was coming out of a long term relationship and here I was entering a new situation with somebody where I didn't necessarily have a whole lot of expectations placed on me, which was very appealing because I, I just dated for someone for three years, so I didn't really necessarily want to get bogged down long term. My personality took over for sure. So, you know, we dated for I guess, eight months and we had like a very, very, very close relationship. So we felt deeply in love with each other and really cared about each other. Her primary, who was really close to me, I always felt like, I hope they still think this. Like, I was incredibly respectful of the relationship boundaries and really thoughtful about my approach. I think in the relationship to Riley that whole time, and in the beginning it was a total blast because I was so close with both of them as a couple. We got to hang out all the time, the three of us, and hang out with our friend group and, it was very blissful. Like I said, like that actually is my preferred poly method.

F: Yeah, I was going to say when you said, that he was a friend of your. I was like, that's exactly what you want.

Mr. K: It's exactly what I want. I love it. Like, I love it because then you're went. You can like, surprise your mutual partner in fun ways and like, oh, yeah.

F: Can you share maybe'things well, we would.

Mr. K: Go on like three way. Surprise her on three way dates where we'd both be there and like, oh, it's just so good. There's so many.

F: Also, you would not let her know that both of you and say that only one person was gonna be there and then they were. Both of you were there. Oh, that sounds great. Like we're at a restaurant.

Mr. K: Yeah. You're like a really, a nice restaurant or like, I don't know. We would do a lot of things together, three of us. And it was just fun. It was good. The greatest moments in my poly journey have been those moments where everyone's on the same page and together. And really beautiful things have come out of that. I mean, even in my last relationship, I remember when Lucy. There was s. One time she took me to Billy Joel concert at Madison Square Garden and surprised me. I thought it was just going to be her and I. And then Corinne showed up and all three of us went together and was like.

F: So she had done that for you?

Mr. K: Yeah, she did that for me. Right. So, those are like those really special moments where you're like, I feel so loved, I could die. Like, I'm so overwhelmed with love and appreciation that it's just probably one of those moments that you will never experience as a monogamous person. That is super special for me anyway. It's just really, really beautiful.

F: Yeah. Imagine to have two men on a date. That sounds great.

Mr. K: It's so good. really, really cool. And so, yeah, that relationship was really good for a long time. I think ultimately I'm, you know, going back to when I got into the scene. And I was kind of disappointed by really, I think what was really a sexual objective for most people in the poly scene. And I thought that I was unique as probably a man not having that. That same kind of concept, I think took over where I. I want a partner long term. And so over time, I was very worn down by the relationship, even though I'm still great friends with both of them to this day. And, they're both very important to me and no one did anything wrong at all in the relationship. But, it started to really fatigue me in terms of I had really strong feelings for this person. And I think that I was putting the Kind of expectations through no fault of theirs, but like putting the kind of expectations that I would want out of a primary on this person because we, you know, felt so, so strongly for each other and had such strong feelings that became really unhealthy for me. And ultimately I ended the relationship just because I felt like because this person was there, I wasn't putting the effort into really finding something that would be successful long term for me.

F: Ye. and she couldn't be.

Mr. K: And she couldn't be that. And by the way, that's not what I send up for. Right. So it's okay. It's just, I think entering that relationship long term was probably not really going to ever work for me just because what I really want is, and I'm still open to being open, but what I really want is a long term partner. And if I was putting all these emotional feelings into a person who would never really be able to reciprocate them even if she wanted to, frankly, like, she just wouldn't be able to based on the structure of her relationship. It just, it wasn't going to work.

F: Yeah, well, I feel like, it takes maturity to take that decision, so cheers. Absolutely. Yeah. Well, I'm just curious, where do you stand now? Because. Because you kind of have realized that what you wanted is impossible or it's difficult. At least from what you've told us, that having two very meaningful poly relationships long term, comes with its difficulties. But at the same time you are still that person with that huge heart and you are still very polory, as you said from the beginning. So where are you now and where do you see yourself in the futureeah?

Mr. K: Yeah. I think it's tricky. I definitely, with poly, opened a box that I can't shut. I can't even imagine being in like a monogous marriage where like my wife goes on a bachelorette party and then like sleeps with some guy in la and I'm just like, this is done. I'd be like, I'm so pumped for you. Like, how was it? Was it fun? Like, I'd be so excited for her.

F: Do you like to hear details?

Mr. K: I don't mind hearing details. Yeah, yeah. Sometimes it's even exciting.

F: Like I'm just so you've never, I mean, besides that, like, like very first time, you've never really felt jealousy?

Mr. K: My initial reaction is to be truly excited for them and get on their side and kind of cheer them on. I can't help it. It's just who I am. By default. That being said, I mean, and.

F: Also on your side, you also want to have those relationships and you also hope that your partner will cheer you on, right?

Mr. K: Yes, I think, that's true. But I think that if I having a long term partner, I am less interested in putting additional stress on the relationship by having outside parties. I guess where I'm kind of at now is I might be kind of open, but not necessarily as poly, even though in general emotionally I'm very poly. But I actually think that the process to achieve that is just riddled with landmines. And so what I think is probably like a more realistic goal not to go through a bunch of suffering, is that I would just be generally open with my partner and if they had a sexual experience with someone else, or, you know, we did together, that would be fine. But I think dating multiple people at once for both of us, I'm open to it. If I found myself with the right partner, I think that there's potential there. But I, I am jaded in my thought process around actually achieving that. And it's hard for me because I'm like a very ambitious person and I think I always feel like I can get what I want ultimately. But this is like one of those things where I've been humbled over five years, not even from my own experiences, just by watching what's happened with other people. And so I'm much more hesitant about pursuing that because I feel like you're setting yourself up for failure.

M: Yeah. And I think it's interesting and kind of funny that, that you and I are in very similar situations on how we kind of feel about non-monogamy right now. From very opposite points of view though, which is very interesting. I think that's why we've been a really good sounding board for each other because we have kind of been having the experience on the other side. Like I was very much in Riley's place and vice versa, you were in and my new partner's point of view.

F: Yeah. So in that case, Mr. K would have been your secondary who's now your primary.

M: Right, Right. So it's interesting because even though we were in very opposite sides of it, we're both now kind of falling into this thought that is it really worth the trouble?

Mr. K: Right.

M: You know, and I do still see there is a lot of beauty in it, in the perfect utopia of what we could have, that would be amazing. But at the same time it's like, like the stars just have to align so well for that to actually happen.

Mr. K: Yeah. And it's constantly enticing. There's part of me that still wants to achieve that amazing feeling that I've had several times where everyone's on the same page and everyone's really happy together. I just almost know better a little now that what will actually happen will probably not be that.

F: Yeah, it's so interesting because, when Mariah said, oh, it's interesting, we're re on the same page, I was like, actually, I'm also kind of on the same page. Although I've been giving counterpoint to what you have been saying the whole interview. But for me personally, that's why I consider my relationship open and not poly. Because I also feel like I'm a very poly person in the sense that I can very easily connect with tons of people. And like, I'm not totally discounting the possibility that one day I might have two partners. But from my experience, which is very limited because I've never actually had another partner. But from my experience just kind of exploring, I've noticed that I felt uncomfortable when things start going more the polyamorous route. I'm still trying to figure out whether that's possible. And I'm still not close to the idea of becoming polyamorous. But as of now, I just feel like open makes more sense because of all the feelings involved with two people because of time management, because dedicating yourself to your primary. To me, it's easier and makes more sense than having two relationships that you dedicate yourself to almost equally. That is very complicated. But at the same time, we just had Taryn Episode 8. If you haven't listened to it, and she's been married for eight years, she's been over a year, almost two years with a, second partner who she says that is as significant as her marriage. And it's been two years. You were doing that for three. Who knows? Maybe, Tarn, it sounded like you were doing great, but maybe it won't work in the long term. I don't know.

Mr. K: Yeah, it's possible. I just think it's like, if you want to go play major league baseball, you can do it. It's just really hard to get there. So I think that there's nothing wrong with aspiring and trying to do that, but I think that people should understand the difficulty in getting to a situation that they have in their mind that they think will work. On the other hand, if you're the kind of person that is really comfortable having a couple medium term relationships here and there that are meaningful. Right. You can fall in love with someone for two years and love them so much and really get a lot out of that relationship and then move on to another one or bounce around between people that enrich your life and change you as a person.

F: That's. I't see myself. I don't see myself finding, another partner that I'm like 10 years with or something like that. Yeah, but maybe two years or something.

Mr. K: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. I think the last thing I'd say about, like, people who are very committed to trying to find that if you're in a big poly scene and you're trying to navigate all of this, like I said before, a lot of people are in this for the wrong reasons or they love a partner so much and the partner wants something else that they're killing themselves. Sust stay in a relationship that's incredibly toxic to them. When you involve yourself with people, be incredibly thoughtful about, selective about who you end up dating and involving yourself with. So you should look at what the relationship looks like with their other partner and what your relationships look like with you and your other partner and just be super selective. And like, is this really a healthy relationship? Is this really a relationship where people are communicating? Is this something where people want generally the same concep? And that, I think is good advice on ultimately getting what you want if you are trying to do that. Because it's just riddled with landmines.

M: Yeah.

F: And something that I wanted to mention at some point, that I actually heard from a couple that came to the podcast, an upcoming episode, I think the one after this, actually, they said, like, we don't do open unless we're good in our relationship. And I think that's very important. And on your side, if you are someone who's dating someone who' in a relationship, maybe also look out for whether that person that you're dating is in a relationship that's healthy because you don't want to be that placeholder or you don't want to get involved in a, nonealthy dynamic that was there before you even came into the picture. Right. so I think that those are all great tips. You kind of already answered these question, but are there any other tips for a polycurious person? Like if you could go back to Mr. K in, his. This early 30s, 29, 30, when you started this journey, what would you tell him?

Mr. K: Yeah, I mean, the whole thing with poly is that, like, all of us are trying to play this game where we're prioritizing our rational thinking. Over our emotions. Right. So we're all saying that theoretically, poly works very well because of XYZ. And I believe that, cause I've read in three books. But in reality, like, the feelings are much different, they play out. And the heart is not connected to the mind. Like that's just true. So. So I think that the rational advice that I would give is that to enter into relationships with people who have the same view of poly that you do. And that's very hard because maybe there's 1 in 10 people who are approaching it the same way you are. but you can't really choose who you're fall in love with. So it's very difficult.

F: That's a tricky part.

Mr. K: That's the tricky part, right.

M: Especially when you're first dating somebody. It's not like, by the way, give me your list of why you're poly or non-monogamy

Mr. K: Right. You feel that over time. But I think what I would say is, like, as you get to know m people's approach, temper your expectations of what the relationship is going to look like based on what you've learned about that person's sort of approach and who they are. That'll actually avoid a lot of difficult situations where you're on different pages. And I think everything's kind of like a Venn diagram. You're not going to ever find someone where your circles match up perfectly in terms of what your approach to poly is. But if you have someone where the space between your overlapping circles is tiny, you're destined for failure. But if you find someone where in general your approaches are very similar, that's where you can ultimately find happiness and success.

F: Yeah. Well, I hope you find happiness and success. Thank you for coming to Polycurious. It was amazing.

Mr. K: Thanks for having me, guys. Loved it.

F: And that's it from the wonderful Mr. K. I hope that this conversation helps you think of what might or might not work for you and your specific situation. I would really love it if you shared this episode with someone who you think might find some truth in it. As always, our Instagram is @PolycuriousPodcast and our Gmail is polycuriouspodcast@gmail.com Uh.com. thank you all so much for your support and I'll see you all next week. U.