Ruth: Alejandro approached her and was like, I think you're really attractive. My girlfriend and I have just opened up our relationship. I'd like to take you out. And she misunderstood and marched right over to me and started making out with me. You were like, can we go on a date? She was like, let me just start this already.

Alejandro: All of my guy friends were like, cheers.

Fernanda: Hi, guys. I am Fernanda. This is Polycurious. Today's episode might actually be my favorite so far. I interviewed two really good friends of mine. Their names are Ruth and Alejandro. and they have been together for eight years and married for four. And this conversation was basically one great story after another one. We talk about how everything went really wrong when they first met and how they thought that they would never meet again. They also tell us about their first threesome and how that also was a disaster. We talk about how they went from having a long list of rules at first to adjusting to the needs of their relationship. And Alejandro shares a story that I really love about how he overcame an insecurity that he had. And we really talk about so much more. So I hope that if you are starting your journey or even if you've been exploring non-monogamy for a while, you find this interview as fun and as insightful as I did. So here's my interview with Ruth and Alejandro.

Welcome, guys. I'm, so excited to have you. I've been waiting so long to finally sit down and have this conversation because even though we're friends and I know you guys are open or I guess poly you can clarify that for us, but I actually don't know much about how this happened and how your relationship works and think you're both wonderful people. So I can't wait too learn more about.

A: Thanks for having us. Super happy to be.

R: Yeah. Excited.

F: Okay. Yeah.Why don't you guys first introduce yourselves for the listeners.

R: so for the purpose of this podcast, I will be Ruth. I'm a, journalist.

A: And I will be Alejandro. And, I am, an, architect and DJ.

F: Those sound very cool professions. I'm hanging out with this journalists and architect and DJ.

R: I told him that on our first date, and I was like, it's really hot. And he gave me this look and I was like, oh, you're so cute. You didn't realize that that was really hot.

A: Yeah, I've never thought of myself that way. And this is back in 2013 again. Doesn't so a less people were DJs back then. I didn't Think it was like a thing, like an attractive thing.

F: Well, I'm sure that by this time you've come to realize that it does help if you're a DJ and you're an architect Cause if you're only an dj, only an architect is not the same.

R: Yeah, the architecting keeps my mom happy.

F: Yeah.

R: And speaking of my mom, the reason why I want us to use other names is we're actually incredibly open with everybody in our lives about this except for my mom. So that's the only reason why we're using these names.

A: My mom doesn't speak English, so it's okay.

F: Same with my mom. So, yeah, I feel like that, gives me a lot more freedom. But yeah, that's super common. Most people, most parents are not used to the idea. And I understand they grew up in a different time. They haven't been exposed to the things that we've been exposed to.

A: It's a different generation for sure.

R: Yeah. And my sister used to be really not understanding of it, and now she's on full on poly.

F: Oh really? She's poly too?

R: Well, yeah, she's open. She's very open with her current husband. and it was so interesting to see her go through that whole process.

F: Even with my mom. Like, I don't give her the details, but it's so surprising how open people are once you actually explain things to them. Like, how can they not judge if they've never heard of it? So sometimes it's just like opening up that door to have a conversation with your loved ones. you, mentioned that it was 2012 when you guys met. 13. 13.

A: And then we open a relationship. Not much after that. I would say that you. The window is blurry in my head, but I would say between three to six months, that's like the range.

F: And I know you guys just had your four year wedding anniversary, so you've been together over all eight years. yeah. Which is a long time before that. I know that Alejandro was married for a few years, right?

A: Yeah, I was married for eight years.

F: Years.

A: That, yeah. And that was one of the reasons why I decided that I wanted to try non-monogamy because I felt very stifled, very tied up, and very much, judge. And I knew that I wanted to have a relationship that would afford me more freedom, but in a way that it was much more ethical to do.

R: I actually sometimes feel for his ex wife because I know exactly when a woman walks by that Alejandro, finds attractive. And I'll just Look at him and he'll look at me and he'll be like, what? I know his type so well.

F: Well. But, luckily you don't hold grudges against him because of that. Right?

R: I mean, I came to the relationship. What's interesting is both of our serious relationships before we met each other, we're with Scorpios, and we're both Sagittarius, so. Sagittarius. We love meeting new people experiences. And Scorpios are like, no, you stay here with me. and so I also felt really stipled.

A: Generally.

R: Generally blankets. That's a generalization.

A: It's very.

R: Woo.

A: Science.

R: Yeah, it's science. and so my boyfriend was great in a lot of ways, but also like, I would just felt like, oh, there's a lot to explore in this city. I. He was like, know, starting to talk about marriage. I was 24 and I was like, I'm too young for this. And also, I know there's a ton of super fascinating, transgressive, interesting, underground things going on in New York City. And I knew in my heart that he would never do it with me and would never let me do it by myself. And so I was starting to be like, maybe this is goingna work. And then he'd be like, no, no, it is. And then I cheated on him. And so. So I think I read the same essay that Illich did around the same time when we didn't know each other, which was something by Dan Savage.

F: Oh, nice. Will link it in the show notes.

R: Okay, yeah, I'll try to find it. it must have been like 2011 or 2012.

A: I think it's the one where he talks about being monogamish.

F: Yeah, Monogamish. Yeah, that's it. Just the idea that you are not always 100% monogamous. Like maybe only when your partner is on a trip or only with this one person. And there's like many different things.

A: Run the gammut. Because it could be also something as simple as you're allowed to flirt with somebody at a party and have that feeling of somebody finding you attractive and available, even though you have a long time partner or even like you make out with a person and that's it. That's all you do. So there's different levels, as you were saying, different levels of what that monogamish could, could be.

F: Yeah, and I love that concept because it's kind of like, you know, when people are not fully vegetarian, you know, they try to eat vegetarian, but everyone once in a while they eat meat and like, I feel like we all flexitarian. Flexitarian, Exactly.

R: Like, you know, it's a sexitarian.

F: I'm sexit Tarian. Yeah. This idea that it doesn't have to be black or white, but anyhow, you read the essay, about being monogamish.

R: Yeah. And so it put the idea in my mind. There was one guy that, I, hooked up with, and we had gone to the same conservative college. And so, he understood where I was coming from, which was from this place of deep shame around sexuality. I come from a college where if people found out that you had but sex, it was like the end of your reputation.

F: Where did you grow up?

R: Well, I grew up, in the south, and then I went to a conservative, wealthy, small college in Virginia. And so he understood where I was coming from. And so I would do things that, like, I think a lot of progressives today would just write me off as a lost cause. Right. I remember one time I was like, oh, I heard you're bisexual. And he was like, maybe, you know. And, I remember clearly one day, like, I said something around the guy you were dating.

F: Yeah, you told him that?

R: Yeah, I was like, oh, I heard you'bisexual And I had this disgust, like, shock. Right. Like, how could you be bisexual? And. And he, like, perhaps, maybe, you know, like, he wasn't offended at all because I think he just knew all the baggage that I was bringing in because he'd seen that up close. He really did a lot of work to help me unwind a lot of the things he took a Socratic approach to it of like. I think I said something around, like, you what gurgles don't do? And he'd be like, but why? But why? But why? Until I have to admit that I didn't know why I wasn't allowed to enjoy kinky stuff. Like, you know. And it didnt say something bad about me, that I did enjoy it. And itn, didnt have to be a source of shame.

It could just be a source of pleasure. He wanted to be fully polyamorous. Like he was already dating a woman. I dont think he was my person. And also I was just like, you know, Im feeling really competitive with this other girlfriend and it's making me really uncomfortable. And I don't want to be a sister girlfriend, basically. But we ended up, staying on really good terms. And when I started dating Alejandro, Alejandro and I got into this fight and he was the one I called because he was the only sex positive Person I knew, I didn't even know to call it sex positive. And I trusted him and he sort of walked me through some things and again, unwound some of my misconceptions around sexuality and open space for me to go back to Alejandro and be like, you know what? This thing that I thought was terrible is not terrible. And, I want to give this whole thing another chance.

F: When you say that thing that I thought was terrible, what did you mean?

A: So I had lived for about five and a half years at this point, with the, misconception that I thought that I was herpes positive. And they had told me that I needed to go for a second test. And I never did because the moment I just heard positive, it was like my world just kind of collapsed. And it was pretty stupid. But that's when I was married and I couldn't understand how I got it because I never cheated on my ex wife. And, then when I started dating around, I didn't know how to disclose. I didn't have the tools to bring that very difficult conversation before engaging with somebody, actually, because I was afraid that wasnna scare everybody away or whatever. So I never did, the first time that her and I were together, and then I brought it up before the second time that we werenna have sex. And then that was the mistake that I made. And.

R: And I stormed out and wrote this vicious email outlining all the reasons why he wasn't ready to have a girlfriend.

A: And in the process, she wrote several times how shitty the sex was on my.

R: I only wrote twice. And in my defense, I wasn't saying the sex was shitty, I was asking him because I also felt kind of pressured into sex that first time. Like, I think he was still operating from a sense of scarcity, of like, if I don't get this now, it's never going to happen. I mean, this was 2013. Like, I feel like in the eight years society as a whole has come so far in terms of consent, and it was a pretty typical experience, right? Like you make out with a guy, hes like, do you want to come home? And youre like, okay, but Im definitely not going to have sex with you. Okay? And hes like, yeah, totally. And then.

F: Yeah. And then he bushes for it, right?

R: So in my email, I was sort of like, why were you so insistent on having sex when you knew you had this? And then on top of that, he was having issues getting it up because he was so nervous around this new person. And so I was just like, I just don't understand how do these things fit together? Of course, in his memory, I just told him he was terrible at sex. Repeatedly.

A: Three times.

F: Twice.

R: Twice. And I think there were good points to make.

F: Yeah, I mean, also, like, first time you have sex with someone, it can be very, very different than once you get to know the person. And there are so many factors that come into play. But I can't believe you guys ended up together after that happened. How did you get over that hump?

R: Well, yeah, so I called up that guy and he was like, okay, well, it's sucksy and disclosed, but did you know that herpes is not a big deal? Half of the populations exposed to it, they don't even test for it. When you go in and tell them to do all the testing, it's hard to identify. There's false positives, there's false negatives. It's just not basically a skin condition. Yeah. It's not this disgusting thing that society has made it out to be.

F: Ah, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I mentioned this to you guys before, but it's a big stigma. So there's apparently two types of herpesie. And I have the oral herpes, so I have a cold sore. and when I got it, I did research and freaked out and talked to people. And I think that that's, an important thing to know, that if you have hairppie, if it's not manifesting at the moment, it's more likely that you won't give it to someone else. And also a lot of people have it and there's a lot of stigma. And it doesn't mean that you are dirty. It doesn't mean. But it sucks that you thought you had it for such a long time and that that caused this issue with Ruth.

A: Yeah. But the silver lining for me was that I learned to have much more empathy for people who do have it and disclose. And I think there's a value in disc closing and being open about it. But also there's a very strong value on receiving that person is closing to you and being able to honor that. Ah. With the care that it needs. So, for instance, we were at a sex party, and a woman is close to us. Before we had sex with her. She said, just so you know, I'm not having an episode at this moment. I wouldn't be here if I did, but have been tested positive for herpes in the past. And I think you guys shouldn know, before we start playing and this person is being vulnerable to us at that point. And so it's important to know, how to treat those moments and for us, myself included, I feel like after having gone through this experience, I had a lot more empathy for her and I understood that the science behind it and that she wasn't going to be transmitting to us. And at least we could also make a choice of like, well, them, we could play with this person, but maybe skip the oral sex. If we feel like that, we could say yes, but then we change our strategy around how we play. Or we could be completely trustful that this is the case and we decided that we were going to play with her and we were intimate with her.

R: Yeah, it was great.

A: And it was great. So I think there is a lot of stigma that we put into this and I think that it's good to talk about these things.

F: So real quick, how did you go from that email to meeting up again?

R: well, his response to the email was the best response that he could have sent, which was, I hear you, like, I made a mistake. I see why you wrote most of this email. I think you were unnecessarily harsh when it comes to the sex, but I'm going to work on these things. And I was like, whoa, this guy is incredibly emotionally mature.

F: ding, ding, ding, ding, dinging.

R: And you know, I've learned since then that, some of the best catches in the dating world are men who have been through a bad marriage, gone to marriage counseling, and can talk about why their marriage fell apart without speaking badly of their ex partner.

F: Yeah, it reminds me of a tweet I saw the other day. It was like, if you go to therapy, you immediately become 10 times hotter. And I actually, I think I even reposted the story on, on our Instagram because I think that that's true. There's a lot of value on having live those experience and having learned from those mistakes. But anyhow, how did you guys, meet up again after that email?

A: So I was devastated and very depressed and I have forgotten had this really big gig in Washington D.C. a couple of weeks after that email. And I started preparing for it and getting ready for it. And then I get this text message from Ruth on my way down to the sea to the gig where she said, hey, I'm hanging out with my girlfriends because it was, Mother's Day weekend that weekend. So I was playing Saturday night and.

R: I'm from Annapolis, which is nearby D.C.

A: And apparently the biggest show happening that weekend was that show that I was playing with, these artist. So she asked for comps for my.

R: Showahs, her comps and drugs.

F: Wait, I have a question. So when you saw how he responded to the email where you like, oh, fuck, I wa want to see him again and I feel bad. or were you honestly not planning on seeing him again and then you were like, oh, wait a second, but he's playing.

R: I left the door open. My email back to him was like, I think I said something like, thank you for this response. If I see you around, which I figure I will because we had met a party, I'll say hi and give you a hug, but I just don't see this going anywhere. But yeah, I wanted to go out that weekend.

A: Oh, so you saw the show was happening?

R: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, totally.

A: Okay. Y. I had told you.

R: You told me about it.

F: Oh, okay. Okay. That changes thing things. Yeah. Okay.

R: Yeah, I knew it was going to be a good show. And I was pretty new the electronic music scene too. So I was at this point where I was like, if anybody invited me to something, I would go. It didn't matter who they were. I'd be like, oh, this guy definitely wants to get in my pants. But this sounds like a fun party.

F: I'll go, yeah, yeah, I. You, you.

R: Yeah. So when I saw the way he DJed, it wasn't fist pumping DJing, it was like, so generous. He just wants people to enjoy themselves on the dance floor. Which I know sounds like a very obvious metaphor for sex.

F: Yeah.

R: But at the time I was just like, oh, wow, this guy seems like a good soul. H m. And yeah, there was a lot of things on paper that he needed to kind of grow up. And he was like, in full on I'm freshly divorced and gonna rage mode. But I could see that there was something in the essence of who he is that was really good. So, yeah, I went home with him that night and we had very creative non penet sex to get around the. The so supposed herpes. And, the rest is history.

F: Who decided to open up the relationship or who brought it up first? Because you both expressed that you were kind of ready at that point. You had both read, the Dan Savage essay. But who brought it up first?

R: I mean, I did technically. Like, I think we were just lying naked in bed one time, and I was like, do you believe in monogamy? And his answer was no.

A: No. My answer was, wow, that is crazy that you're asking this, because I was thinking about that myself. And I was thinking about how to ask you the same question. But I didn't know how, to bring it up.

R: Yeah, so we were both thinking about it and I mean, I think that conversation, that point was like, okay, well we're not going to open it up right this second.

A: Ye. I had never experienced being an up open relationship, so we had to learn a lot together.

R: Yeah, yeah. I mean we definitely approached the whole relationship as in, hot people will continue to exist even if we fall madly, deeply, truly in love. So the idea of opening up the relationship sounded really good to me for two reasons. One is I still hadnt t fully explored the side of me thats attracted to women. The second thing was I knew that I would really want the pleasure of meeting someone interesting and like fully exploring that connection. And also I've always just really believed that a sexual connection, especially between a woman and a man I feel like men, the way society is right now, men are more empowered to pull you completely into their world and show you completely new things in a really enveloping way. Even if you become best friends with a woman, like it takes a longer time for her to be like, hey, I'm going to create an entire experience for you that's in this completely different world that you're not a part of. And that's one of the things that I enjoy most about sexual relationships, casual or serious is, is entering into someone else's life in a really intimate way and seeing the way they live and what they enjoy and meeting the people in their lives. So I didn't want to give that. I mean, that's why I'm a journalist. Right.

F: I was about to say that I was like, that's exactly the reason why I'm also open. That's exactly why. And I also studied journalism and I was gonna say that's the journalist in you and that's a journalist in me. Because, yeah, I just find it so interesting, you know, even if I'm not super in love with the person or even if I'm not like that sexually attracted, it's just like, wow, this person lives this way and it's opened up this window to the world to me and yeah, I really love that. How did you realize though that you were attracted to women?

R: I think I knew it for a long time, but I just didn't want to admit it to myself because to me it felt trashy to be bisexual. right.

F: That's what you told your ex. I heard you were bisexual.

R: Oh, even worse for men, right? I mean, I don't believe that anymore, obviously, but I started having dreams about women. we should tell her about our first threesome right after we opened up our relationship.

F: Yeah, I mean, tell me about that. The very beginning. What was your first or one of your first experiences opening up? And what did that show you?

A: Well, not much has changed for us from our perspective from, I, don't know, eight years ago. Because there was always this hesitation on my end, this fear, which is the moment you open the floodgates. The woman in the relationship is just gonna get, like, dates left and right while the guy will not. And that's, like, still holds true to this day. so it was really hard for me. I think I remember asking her to give me a window of time to find dates. So it was like a few months. So I was like, can you hold? Because it's going to be really easy for you to find a guy, but I need to be out.

F: Were you like, let's plan to have a date at the same time?

A: No, it was even more like, let me just have these experiences first so that I can wrap my head around what it means to go out and walan, in a relationship. And like, a year and nothing happened for me. I never found any dates. I had to go to release, basically.

R: Yeah. Dating separately took a really long time. But I think it was a few days after we were like, okay, let's try this opening up. And Alejandro ah played this wild party that he'd put together. Everybody was just drunk and high on everything. And we went back and after partied at his place, and there was this woman there. And Alejandro ah approached her and was like, I think you're really attractive. My girlfriend and I have just opened up our relationship. I'd like to take you out. And she misunderstood and marched right over to me and started making out with me.

F: You were like, we go on a d. She was like, let me just start this already.

A: All of my guy friends were like, cheers.

F: Were you attracted to this woman? Yeah, I.

A: She was gorgeous.

R: Yeah, she was. She gorgeous. Like, good energy. So the party starts wrapping up, and people are leaving, and she'd come m with one of our friends who were still friends with to this day.

A: Everybody's, like, on a beeline leaving the apartment. So it's our friend who brought her over, and she's the last person I was so messed up, like, drunk and everything. I just put my body in between her and her friend, and on the door frame, and I go, she's sleeping over tonight. And I closed the door on him like, and then we go to the.

F: Bedroom, but she was down for.

A: Oh, yeah. She had a huge smile on her face and was like.

R: She was totally. But we were so drunk and high and so she was laying on her back on the bed, and I was on all fours on top of her, making out with her. And then Aljandro and, you know.

A: An erection is a fragile thing, especially when you are this drunk and thisism.

F: For the first time.

A: For the first time as well.

F: The first time, yeah.

R: So Alejandro is coming in from behind.

A: And after I went into an inter session of yoga breathing to find my true north and be able to gather the energies and, the concentration to summon this erection. A very fragile erection. The erection was there and I was ready to go. And this is where I'm coming from behind.

R: so he comes in from behind, and I guess you were going for her vagina.

A: I was aiming for her vagina and.

R: He completely missed and got my asshole. And I whipped around and looked at him and I was like, what are you doing? Because in my mind, I was like, oh, motherfucker, a threesome is not enough for you? You also want to do some butt sex as well in the middle of all this? Like, are you fucking kidding me? And he didn't realize what was going on.

A: So from my perspective, I just aimed for her guest of honor's vagina and I got slapped in the face out of nowhere. And I thought, oh, my God, it's finally happening. She's jealous. Because she's not very jealous at all in the relationship. And I thought it's finally, like, manifesting this way at this point, in the middle of her first three son, she's jealous and she slapped me in the face. O wow, maybe I should have aimd for my partner's vagina.

F: And at this point, at this.

A: Point, that erection is gone, Right?

F: But hadn't even realize that you were doing anal.

R: Oh, no, he didn't make it in. It was just like.

F: Was my perspective he didn't make it in?

R: No, it was. That's what happened. Like, she just lauged to that part.

F: And I was like, oh, I see. Ablly, I see.

A: Yeah, she slaps me. And so erection is gone. It's really awkward.

R: Our guest was like, you know what? Because he's just standing there, like he has't know what to do. And she was like, hey, do you think, he could leave? And my drunk, reptilian woman brain goes into girl mode. Right? If your girlfriend doesn't want a guy there, like, he has to leave, kind of forgetting that we were the partners and we were in this together. And so I was like, babe, can you leave? And we left the room, and she and I made out for, like, three more minutes and then passed out when.

A: I proceeded to go to the couch and sleep with Pancho. And we both fell asleep the couch.

F: He is right next to us.

A: And he was a baby cat at the time, and he provided me with the support that I needed at that point, because I was devastated. I also couldn't understand because. And, this is being told from your perspective a lot, but from my perspective, I just got slapped in the face thinking that my partner is really jealous and upset. However, she asked me to leave the room and is making out with this woman still, even though that I'm thinking that she's mad at me. So it was very conflicting in my head. It was a very emasculating experience when I think about it again. And so it wasn't good at all. And so I'm thankful for my cat.

R: And the next morning I woke up and I look over and see this woman. And I'm like, you know, there's that movie trope in romantic comedies where the guy wakes up next to a woman and he's like, oh, no. Why? This sucks. Like, what is she doing here? And he tries to sneak out. I felt that way. I never felt that way. And I was like, oh, no. I have to deal with this woman. I'm hungover. I feel like shit. Bad things happened last night, and so I don't remember anything after that. But I did get up, and I went and cuddled on the couch with Alejandro. And then I explained what happened, and it took a few weeks for us to recover from that. And we were like, we are never doing this drunk or high again. We need to be in possession of all of our faculties if we're going to do something that is ripe for so much misunderstanding and mistakes and emotional. Yeah, it's just a lot to take on, even if you're sober. And if you're drunk or high, forget it.

A: You know, sex is better when you have your faculties more with. You think you're more present. I think you're more present for sure.

F: Yeah, definitely. sounds like a sobering experience. I feel like other couples might have experienced that. I've been like, okay, you know, let's close this up.

A: I mean, it was funny because I didn't find out about aiming for the wrong hole until I woke up the next morning and her guest left. I was like, oh, shit. I was so out of my mind that I couldn't tell, like, you know, where I was aiming.

F: I listened to another interview that, they did. Maybe I can also link it in the show notes that you guys did. You were talking about how, you, Alejandro, had a lot more rules for Ruth than Ruth had rules for you. And it sounds like it has to do with what you mentioned, that Ruth are not very jealous, and Alejandro, you are. but I was actually curious about one of the rules, which was something like guys couldn't come on her or inside her. I don't remember the details, but can you tell us what those rules were and what your logic was and how maybe those rules changed over time?

R: Well, I don't think we're gonna be able to remember all 50 rules that he typed out on a PDF and gave to me before this happens.

A: It was just like, don't know what she's talking about.

R: Yeah, you know exactly what I'm talking about. And I was just like, go forth, babe. Have a good time. Treat woman with respect.

A: So the rule that she described is man coming on her. And there's an aspect of kind of, as a man like, obviously nobody can own anybody else, so there's no ownership, really. Like, one of the things about open relationships is that you have to understand that even though you are in a relationship, it doesn't mean that you own a person. However, for guys's. Or myself, I guess I had to speak for myself. Others is this kind of imagery of. I don't know, it's a strange kind of symbology of allowing your woman or allowing another man to do something on your woman, which feels like they're now taking more ownership of a person that you're with. And again, I don't subscribe to that idea. I don't think that there is much logic to that.

F: But I understand. We live in a society, and I mean, you are Latino. Like, you come from a machista culture. and those ideas are very prevalent, even if you don't believe them when you, after the fact, think about them. But you grew up with them, and there are things that affect you. And that's why I was interested in asking you, because I assume that rule is no longer valid. I don't know.

A: No. So we were able to negotiate it to something that worked for both of us, which was.

R: Well, first, I broke it immediately.

A: You brook immediately on the first day that you went out with a guy. and so I requested that at least that that didn't happen on her face.

F: Yeah.

A: And then related to that, this aspect of branding, or your partner coming back with bruises for instance, or marks or bite marks, even nowadays that's still something that I request that that doesn't happen.

F: Yeah, but you know, that's 'different from the other rule. Because if she comes back with marks, you'll see those marks every day or when you have sex with her. And that's not something pleasant. Right? I mean, maybe it's pleasant for some people.

A: For some people, maybe.

F: But that's different than determining the way she interacts. And again, no judgment, because I understand where you were coming from. But that's different than determining the way she interacts sexually with someone else in a, space in which she is supposed to feel free sexually. Right. And especially if it comes from this idea of he owns them more than I do. All these ideas. But I'm sure that that was ages ago. That was literally like, so many years ago. And I'm sure that those ideas have evolved.

R: We ended up just taking the rules out and simplifying it to the point where it was like, yeah, no Mars, no anal sex. Which is totally fine with me because I only trust Alejandro with that anyway. Its a really sensitive, delicate thing that involves a lot of trust. And my rules for him are more around treating women with respect. I think a lot of the growth that Alejandros, had as a feminist is because like, its the beginning. Yeah, it was like there were some guys I had vibes with and as soon as I told them that I was opening it up, theyd be like, great, lets fuck. And he had to spend a lot more time, especially because we weren't in a community of people that understood this. and also both of our types are like girls next door.

A: And also this is back then when open relationships were not as mainstream as I think they are these days.

R: Yeah. So he would come home super frustrated becausee he'd be like, I was talking with a woman. And then as soon as I told her, she was like, I don't believe you.

F: Yeah, but it's easier to hook up as a woman in an open relationship than as a guy. There are less women open to the idea of dating a man who has another partner already. Yeahah, absolutely.

R: I think that's changed a little bit also because now we're in this, community of people who know us. And five years ago I'd wake up to text from people being like, I saw your husband or I saw your fiance and he was making out with another woman. And I'd be like, we're open. Thanks. Now everybody knows we're open. We're always open to answering questions. And it's gotten to the point where a lot of women really trust Alejandro and they know me. And so we have this openness that allows women to hook up with him and know that he treats with them with respect. But, I mean, he had to earn that. He would come home and hed be so frustrated. Hed be like, I got so angry. And I'd be like, yeah. I mean, if you approach women as this transactional. I am trying to find a partner to have sex with because I'm jealous that my partner is getting to have sex with men. You're not going to get anywhere. It's not sexy or awesome. You have to just feel this abundant, like, she can say no and it doesn't matter, and that's her prerogative. And there'll be other women. So it took a really long time to get through that part. And meanwhile, I was having a grand old time hooking up with men.

F: Yeah. And it's interesting because now it's a little bit like things have flipped. I'm not sure if this is completely true, but, like, you've mentioned before that you've had difficulty of people knowing that you are with Alejandro and that being a hindrance from you developing that relationship. So it seems like at the end of, either things flipped or they balanced out. I'm not sure.

A: So within our community, it's been a hindrance for people to know. This is a theory that we have.

R: It is a theory. I'm not inside any men's mind, so I have no idea. And being inside a community that's so sexually open, and I actually haven't hooked up with any other men, since 2018.

A: Until Monday.

R: Until Monday.

F: Until Monday. Yeah. Yeahah.

R: But for a few reasons, one of them was like, I am fully sexually satisfied with Alejandro, and then all of the beautiful women that he brings home. And so that's totally fine. And the other thing was, like, for a while, it was really hard because I would hook up with a guy, and then Alejandro, would find a reason to get incredibly upset. And then on top of that, he would insist on meeting up with the man and having long, soulful conversations about his feelings around me hooking up with that man And so that man would not hook up with me anymore.

A: For the record, I heard the Frankie episode, and I thought it was such a beautiful thing that she was able to go and talk to the person that was that trigger.

R: Okay. Yeah, but that was not the same.

F: Because, he's referring to a previous episode, Frankie, episode six, if you guys want to check it out.

R: But that was different because these people were not in our friend group.

F: Yeah, actually this is a good segue because I wanted to talk about this story that you also shared in another, podcast, which I'll also link in the show notes. But it's related to this because you also approach this person indirectly though. But, it was interesting when Ruth had sex with someone with a, ah, very big penis and then she came home and she was hurting and then you ended up also approaching this guy. can you maybe share that story?

A: Yeah, absolutely. So she came home, she was hurting because she had sex with this guy who I called Charles in that episode and I'm gonna call him Charles again.

F: Yeaheah. And the funny part is that I think you mentioned as well that the first thing that your friends told you, when you told them that you were opening up their relationship, they were like, dude, aren't you afraid that she's gonna have sex with someone with a bigger penis than you? And you were like, no, I, yeah.

A: It's gonna take a while for that to happen. And then sure enough, she came back home and she couldn't have sex with me. And like I said, I did what any guy will do. I reached out to him because he is also in an open marriage and I basically asked him, hey, I'm wondering how you deal or cope with when your wife comes back home and she can have sex with you because the other guy, too big of a dick and she can have sex with you. And he's like, oh, I hope that that's not what I did for you guys.

R: Awkward.

A: I was like, yes, didn't you awkward.

F: Were you like trying to bring it up maybe unconsciously at that point? Like, were you trying to bring up so consciously? Yeah. Okay. You were just being indirect to him about it.

A: I was very passive aggressive.

F: Absolutely.

R: So embarrassing.

F: Yeah.

A: So, yeah. So I don't recommend anybody doing this, but what came out of that experience is that, basically he was very level headed and very mature about it all. And clearly he's been in the sex positive community for a while. And he said, you know, you clearly am the object of your dissatisfaction or something. I forget I'm paraphrasing what he said, but he basically said, I think the best thing to do rather than getting mad at me, he offered Help. And he said, I will talk to you about these things, but I think the best thing to do will be for a good friend of mine who has gone through similar things to what you are going through right now. He's super nice and has this abundance of good energy and advice to give. And I'm happy to put you in touch with him. So you talk about this, and then you can reach back out to me if you want after that. so it was nice because it was sort of like he was kind of diffusing the situation, but also providing help, which was, I found it to be, very mature of him, and I took him up on that. I met with his friend, and he just basically started telling me all the stories of what it was like to let his partner go out on dates with guys who were literally Abercrombie and Fitch models with six packs who you will see in the catalogs. And. And I'll be like, wow, this is incredible. Because it makes you feel like you're not alone, at least to have the support to, have people that you can talk to these things. Because I felt very isolated. I think that part of that being passive aggressive, which I don't like to admit that I did, but I did. But I think part of that, when you were asking me if it was subconscious, I think it was subconsciously me feeling like I was in the hole and feeling like I didn't know where to reach for help. We started going to therapy as well, which helped us a lot. Tremendously.

R: It's really good to have a referee.

A: Yeah. But it was hard because I was even teaching the sun classes at Parsons at that time. And when this particular night happened was a night that I was teaching and I was. So I could not concentrate on my class, that I had to end the class short and go home, basically. I remember coming back home and just breaking down and crying because I couldn't take it. It was pretty hard to digest that as a man

R: But, also, I don't think you believed me at that point because I don't think I had written that article yet about how I actually just don't like big penises. And it took me a really long time. I mean, this was a learning experience for me too, because pop culture is always like. Like, wow. Like, big penises are the best. And I was finally starting to admit, like, I don't like huge penises. I don't think that kind of pain is like.

F: Yeah, that's also. When I heard this story. That's also What I thought I was like, I mean, because I've been there, like, know, having sex with someone who has a really big penis and then it hurts, it's not enjoyable. Right? If it's too big and it hurts, it's not enjoyable. So I found it interesting. I mean, I totally understand because we live in a society that puts so much value on the penis size when you realize that it's not that important. But it's funny because you were hurting. You also didn't like it. But Alejandro was still jealous because of this societal ye that we have, that a, bigger penis is a better person that's gonna take over your partner or whatever it was. Ye.

R: Yeah. And also, like, I learned from that to have to know this boundary that I have. And now if I hook up with a guy and his penis looks really big, I'm just like, hey, this might be too big for me and maybe we can try it. You have to be very careful, and I'm going to stop you if you're not careful.

F: Whereas also just a lot of loub.

R: Yeah, A lot of loop. But also prior to that experience, I would just be like, yay, your penis is so big. I love this so much. And that wasn't true. I was lying to myself and I was lying to the guy. And I also think it does a disservice to all men. First of all, men who don't have giant penises have this body dysmorphia around the size of their penis because they only see porn sized penises. And then men who have large penises are taught this apocryphal story about how they don'need to learn how to be attentive to a woman's needs because all they have to do is ram their beautiful big dick in and the woman will love it. Which is so not true. So I learned something from that as well.

A: And, I think for me also to feel free with a woman and have free sex that I feel like I don't have to worry about my erection, is when I know this woman better and she knows me well. And we have been maybe like a second time, but always the first time, there is this association with being 6 foot 5. And we meant having this, like, projection.

F: On me that I must have a large foot five.

A: Yeah, that I must have a gigantic dick, which I know I don't. I have a regular sized dick.

R: It's literally average. I looked up the scientificage.

A: and also on top of that, I'm a grower, not a shower. So it creates this sort of pressure on me mentally of, well, there's this expectation that I must have a huge dig, so I better be ready and hard by the time the clothes come off, because otherwise it's going to be very embarrassing. What it has been in the past when I was younger and I had these experiences where there was a lot of kind of disappointed faces.

F: Do you think that it was really disappointed faces or that you were in.

A: Your mind about it? I'm sure there's a lot of like my own self projection to that.

F: And maybe, yeah, a little bit of both.

A: Maybe a little of both. But what I'm very sure is that if there is a certain type of body shaming of what you call it, like body dysmorphia of sorts for men, it's this sort of fabricated idea that the guy with the giant penis is God and is. And to it all for good sexual pleasure with.

R: I mean, it took me probably four years of consistent telling Alejandro, that his penis is literally the perfect size for me for him to believe me. And he didn't actually believe me until I wrote this article about it and it went viral. And he saw all the comments flowing in from other women being like, yes, thank you for articulating this. And then that. And then also being at Burning Man at the Human Carcass Wash. You get naked as soon as you walk into this tent.

A: And then it's a giant circus tent.

R: Yeah. And then you just wait in line for 45 minutes completely naked, dancing to disco music. And it was even better than going to a sex party because I think there's a little bit of self selection at sex parties of men who do have larger penises. And there it was like, oh, this is what the average flaccid penis looks like. Which is not what you see in pop culture.

F: Yeah, we'll, finish the stor.

A: Yeah. So then, so what got me out of all of that? So I talked to his friend and it was pretty helpful. And then I didn't reach out to Charles again. I just reached out to say I met with your friend and it was very helpful. Thank you so much. I appreciate it. I didn't see Charles for another year, and then we bumped into him and his wife at a sex party. And at this point, this article had come out already and I was in a whole other place. And what kind of like, cemented this belief and it allowed me to shed and to let go of this preconception was, Charles out of nowhere? I didn't bring any of this up. He was very nice and so was his wife. They were lovely. We'talking, but we were in a room with other people fucking. And there's a woman who was hollering who was with this guy. He's this Asian guy who. He's like a sex expert, everything. And he had these gloves and he was having sex with this woman. But he was just using his fingers at that point. And he was making her, like, calm in all forms and shapes right before our eyes. And Charles turns to me in the middle of conversation. He's like, do you see this guy here? I'm like, yeah, I see him. And I hear her too'like yeah. So, I've been thinking about what you asked me a while ago, because I didn't have an answer. But I do have an answer. It's funny that he's here right now. So that guy went out with my wife. And, up to that point, my wife, she will tell you she could not squirt. She was like, I'm not built for that. I'm not a squirter. And she went out and with him and he doesn't really have that average size D as well, but he's magic with his fingers. He knows how to use his fingers. And he made her squirt for the first time ever. And that, to me was perhaps the equivalent of this kind of inadequacy that you may have been feeling that you felt when he went out with my wife. So it was this kind of very meta. But he was putting himself in my shoes and expressing how Damos have felt for me. And it was nice because I feel like you don't see this type ofpport. This type of conversation amongst men. And I thought it was really nice and something I like about this community that meant are able to have this type of conversations.

F: Yeah, I think it's a beautiful story for so many reasons. First, I don't know who Charles is, but he sounds like a great person.

A: He.

F: But also this point of not only the pnoc size, but there's always something that men or women are insecure of. and when you are in a poly relationship, it's like, oh, this guy has a bigger penis. Or this guy really knows how to make my wife squirt or my partner squirt. And I. I haven't been able to do that. And there's so many things and the list can go on and on and on. But you realize that the beauty of non-monogamy is that you get to experience that. You get to experience the guy who has the big penis and the guy who has the small penis and the guy who makes you squirt, and the guy who's maybe not that good at in bed, but makes excellent dinner, or maybe has a small penis and is not great at making you squared, but touches you in a really nice way that really turns you on. And there's so many harn also to.

A: Do shibari and in a crazy way.

F: Exactly. And there's a reason why that person is with you. Right. And there's always something that they're gonna find in someone else that you don't have. Right. It'kind of getting used to this idea of, I'm not deficient for not doing the thing that this other person does for my partner, you know, so everybody's different.

R: You're so wise, Fernanda.

F: I know. Thank you. So are you guys.

R: Like I said, I haven't hooked up with another guy outside of our relationship, since 2018, partly because of the pandemic, obviously. I wasn't feeling sexy at all last year. It was like, me and moous all day, every day. and then with spring and getting vaccinated, and I was feeling really hopeful, and I was like, I am horny. And Alejandro, his hat reconnected with a lover. And also, even before the pandemic, I didn hooked up with other guys, but he'd been hooking up with a couple of women that were really great. And so I was like, you know what? I haven't really been able to meet a lot of men in the community. And like I said, I can't get inside these men's minds. But I think there's a couple things that could be going on. Like, one of them is Alejandro is very respected, and people love him. So I feel like there might be a little bit of bro code going on where it's like, I'm just not going to fuck with Alejandro's wife. the other thing is, like, honestly, I often feel really not great about my age compared to a lot of the women who are around. I'm 34, and there's just a lot of, like, really gorgeous.

F: You don't look women. You don't look there.

R: That's a really sweet of you to say. So I've been feeling, like, a little bit.

F: And, I mean, even if you did, I don't think 34 is old at.

R: No, it doesn't. It's not old. So I got on Feeld, actually, because I was like, I want to meet people outside of the Burner community. I was super nervous about it, but it's been great. It's an incredibly sex positive app.

F: Ah.

R: I was just like, you know what? I'm going to put my pictures up there and if somebody sees me, they see me. Like, at this point, I don't care. And I and a thousand 1,100 men liked my profile. It was literally super overwhelming. but it, was a really interesting exercise because I had this very clear vision in my mind and I just asked for it. And I kept refining my profile to be like, I want conversation. I added in that I wanted someone with their own place also. At first I didn't, and then I did put in like, I don't want anybody with more than an average size penis. And it's just going to save everyone so much time. It's been really fun. And, I've been on two dates. They are both great. And yeah, big recommend on feel.

F: That's awesome. that's awesome. and Alejandro, how do you feel about it? I justnn to maybe compare from those times that we just went back to now. I mean, are there still. And it's okay if there are, because it's super normal to feel feelings of jealousy, especially since Ruth, hasn't gone out, or been with someone else in so long. So I understand that if that's the case. But I'm just curious.

A: Well, first of all, I'm not calling any of these guys anymore. So that's one difference. So, yeah, I think, it's interesting because in a way, nothing has changed in that women are going to get literally 1,000 hits versus my Feeld is like, I've only been linked with one woman, this Colombian woman, and we were supposed to have a date and then she changed her mind and that was it. And that's fine too. But it's kind of like it shows you that stark contrast and difference. I trying to break away from this notion of like, if you get five, I get five, like, whatever. And she's having her dates. The only thing I asked was like, just give it to two man per a week. Because also she has things to do. And one thing that I really.

F: And you know, she needs a but to also.

A: And she also t needs like, pay.

F: Attention to you y as well.

A: Yeah. And that's been my only ask. Whenever these feelings of jealousyick kick in m as she's been going out, I go back to all the things that I have learned from the past. And also she's been really good at reassuring me that, I'm, the person that she really loves truly and that I'm, the person that checks a lot of her boxes as a woman.

F: And you guys

A: She loves me.

F: Have been together for a long time.

A: Y. Yeah. we're married as well.

R: You also, like, before I set up like we have, our main, main rule is like, if we're not feeling abundant and good with each other, we shut it down. So we're fighting or anything's wrong, we do not go out with other people. And it was a semi conscious thing that like, I did not feel sexy at all last year. And then this year I'm super horny. So we were having more sex than we had last year with each other before I set up this app to go out and hook up with other men. And we're still having more sex with each other even though I'm going on other dates. So it's this abundance mentality of just because I'm having sex with other men doesn't mean I'm going to have less sex with you.

A: Yeah. And I think also one thing I've found in my journey of all these eight years is found that meditation helps a lot. It truly does. And I've been able to tap into that as well. Also, I've had several experiences with women on my own, as well as with Ruth together. So I know that it may take some time for me to find dates, but when they do happen, they're quite wonderful because I would say 98% of all the women that I've gone out with, or 97% I'm still good friends with and usually still sexually active with them. And the quality of almost all the women that I've been with, it's been incredible. It's been really, really joyful and very, very in depth and very. Just fascinated and respectful to our relationship as well, which is very important to me. Women in general are so mindful of other people, other people in their relationships and women.

F: And they're always more aware.

A: And I really admire that so much from women. For me, it's interesting that I've been able to find a lot more about masculinity by having these interactions with women in an open relationship than talking directly to other guys. Because I'm able to have this window into how other women are dealing with other men by being present for other women.

F: Oh, that's beautiful. So because they shared their experiences with other men, you get these.

A: The truth, honest story behind everything. Because amongst men were always trying to be like, the most matcho ofdoing the other guy. Like, oh, I never lost my erection. Which is not true. yeah, sometimes you don't, but oftentimes you don't even get it. Things like that. And when you are on your own, you think that you are the only person that that's happening to. I start to talk to all these women who are having all these other experiences with men, and I just realize, oh, wait a minute, I'm not the only man having this.

F: And I think that's beautiful. I mean, that's why I also started the podcast, because I feel like we need spaces to have these conversations. And I would recommend for people who are opening up if they can find other people who already open up and get their advice or just listen to this podcast.

A: Exactly.

F: Yeah. So I'm glad that you've gotten that perspective from that.

A: Absolutely. Yeah. And that comes from one of the rules from Ruth, which is leave women in a better place and, where you found them. And part of that is being with women and hearing the stories of their frustrations of like, oh, I'm seeing this guy, but this happened. What do you think? Who are both laying down in bed after sex. And then I'd be like, well, I think this.

F: And that's such a beautiful feeling. Right. To feel like you can talk about your other relationships with someone that you were just intimate with. and I mean, this doesn't necessarily have to be your primary partner, because not everyone's into that. Personally, I don't share my intimate relationships with my primary partner, but I've been in that situation, and it just feels very liberating to be like, we just had sex. But you know what? I'm also talking about how I just had to explain someone else, and it's okay because I don't need to hide it. Right.

A: And, we both know that we're here for casual. And in m. One of your episodes, doctorsana was saying casual doesn't have to be not in depth or not rewarding. You could have something with value, with a lot of value.

R: And I will say, just on his point about how all the women have been really respectful. I think also part of that is we also have veto power. So if I don't like a woman for whatever reason, I can say she's off the table. So I've pulled that veto power for women who I think are too young. Anybody outing 27 is too young.

F: Oh, really? I'm too young?

R: Then darn it your turning 27 soon?

F: Yeah, my birthday is in, like a month.

R: And the other veto power I pull is just being like, you know what, babe? This woman is flaky. I don't like the way she's treating you. I think she's got some stuff to work out. I think you can do better. I want him to have connections outside of our relationship because they're exciting and interesting and new and additive and not just this sort of Neanderthal, like, woman sex. Let's do it.

F: You know, has that been an issue or has it been mostly okay?

R: I haven't felt like it's been a big issue.

A: Yeah. there was one person that, she was veto. She's not now, as I understand. I think since we talk about her, she was veto just simply because actually we were once in a threesome and Ruth so how much we were enjoying sex with each other in front, of her, even though she likes to watch, and that turns her on. And there was other issues.

R: There was like, money issues. Money issues.

A: At that point, we were. Got into a fight. Yeah, we into a fight. So she was wrapped into that story.

F: Wait, why money fight?

R: Don't know. Oh, it's just like we got into a fight about money.

A: And she happened to be the one lover that I was seeing at that time.

R: And so we have this rule of, like, when we're fighting, we don't see that.

F: Oh, I see. I see.

A: Well, she just happened to be the person, and you could interchange her with anyone else. So it wasn a t specific.

F: Yeah, you were going through a rough match.

R: but then also on top of that, I was like, we're shutting this down because we need to figure this out. And that's when we started going to therapy. It was partly because of open relationships, but a lot of it was just money. Basically, he was oversping and he didn't tell me.

A: Yeah, but I didn't hide. I just didn't tell her because I was trying to fix it. I never did.

F: Oh, I see.

A: And so that was a breach of trust that happenede.

R: So anyway, so I was like, okay, we're shutting this down. But also, I kind of used that opportunity to be like, and you can't see this woman because I had these visions of him running away with her and building a life with her because she was in Berlin, because she had been living in Berlin. And she was smart, she was beautiful and creative. His dream woman. And she would like to live in Berlin, where I've always been like, I could never live in Berlin. And then as we started going to therapy and started rebuilding trust around money, he would be like, can I see her now? Can I see her now? And I'be like, no, no. And the more he fought to see her, the more I resisted because I was like, you are making me feel worse because the fact that you're fighting for her so hard makes me feel like I have a reason to be distrustful of this relationship.

A: What El also, I must add, as a guy, you don't have 1,000, hundred options to see other people. So I had very limited choices. So she was the person that was kind of like my lover at the time. And I was just trying to like, can I reconnect with her?

F: Yeah. It's so interesting. Someone brought this up also in one of the podcasts that you guys were, at, in which he said that he was triggered by that person that his wife wanted to see. And it was probably because of that, because he could see how much she liked him. Right. So then the situation happens that, yes, we are open, but I don't want you to see that person. And it's because I see that you really like that person. And then on the other side, your partner might be like, but this is a person I do like. Why can I not see this person that I do like? But I can see the other person that do like. And it's because of that threatead. Right. Threatening to see that. I think that working on one's own insecurities helps with that because at the end of the day, the reason why you're open is maybe is because you want your partner to have the most meaningful relationship. So it's a tricky line to walk righte?

A: Absolutely. And it took a lot of therapy, a lot of communication to overcome that. And I saw her right before the pandemic. we went out for a drink. the spark was still there. we knew that, but we both very mindfully, her and I decided, to not pursue anything. and then, see, we have talked about her again, and sounds like she's not beido anymore.

R: Yeah. I think one of the benefits of the pandemic was we were pretty monogamous. We had one threeme with a lever. but it really cemented our life together because we spent so much time together and we just felt so much more deeply in love. And it just really reinforced this aspect of, like, youre re my person. We want the same things. We're going to build a life together. Dumb things like taking a road Trip, buying a car, like, talking about, like, hey, maybe we want to buy a place upate, like, all of these things, which before we had this apartment, but everything could be abandoned so much more quickly. And we inter intertwined our lives so much more. And the fact that we could spend so much time together 24 7, for a year and still be so much in love, I think also made me feel much more secure in our relationship.

F: O, that's beautiful. Yeah. I felt the same way with my partner. And I feel like the pandemic was really a test to a lot of couples. So I'm glad that you guys made it. You got an A in your test.

R: Yeah, let's do it.

F: Yeah. That's beautiful. Okay, well, I do have to ask you guys. I mean, you've kind of touched on this, but what would you tell to a polycurious person?

R: I always say, like, it's not for everybody. We have personalities that are predisposed to do this. Right. We love meeting new people. We love going out. We love new experiences. We're exploratory. Other thing is that it's so much work, it's worth it, right? It's like running a marathon, right? There are times where you're like, fuck this, fuck this, fuck this. But then you complete a race, and it feels so good where you are, and there's so much pleasure and awesomeness in there. So you do have to go into it very committed to each other and being kind to each other, and it will help you in a lot of ways excavate a lot of latent feelings that you didn't know you had. Because, like, when you're telling your partner, like, this is bringing up feelings for me. I don't want you to do this. You have to explain why you can't just be like, don't do it. In a normal relationship, it's like, don't make out with her, because that's wrong. But now it's like, don't make out with her because. Why? Well, because this brings up these feelings for me because of this thing in my childhood and because this happened to me. And you end up so much closer to each other because you have to go through all of those things with your partner in order to make this work. So not for everyone. Lots of work. But I think the rewards are worth it.

F: Amazing. How about you, Alejandro?

A: So I would say that you should do it definitely with a partner that will show you a lot of trust and who will provide you lots of reassurance within the relationship. I will also recommend take it one step at a time and baby steps are better than full steps and they are okay. And do so in a way that you can try it and always go back to not seeing other people and then assess reassessing. How did that feel? Do you think we could try it again but differently?

F: Yeah, that's exactly how I do it with Seth.

A: Yeah. Have the conversations. Don't reach out to your lovers, partners.

R: Bad open relationship etiquette.

A: Yes. I'm sorry to all the guys out there for the right cre. Well, I didn't mean you.

F: Well, redeem yourself in the podcast.

A: I appreciate all of you guys, and read about it too and find other people who are in the community. That's also helpful and ask the questions. I feel like two books that helped me tremendously. Wherear the Ethical Sl and Opening Up. I believe It'the name of the book by Tristan and Tarmino. she's wonderful as well. She even like answer an email from me before I was with Ruth. And it's a wonderful book. And also as you're going an open relationship in order to cope with this kind of lack of balance between genders from women to men, as a man I would recommend that you understand that lack of balance is always going to be there and to continue moving forward, approaching women with joy and from a place of abundance and from a place of legitimately being happy about the fact that you have this huge privilege in a relationship that most men in the world don't have, which is you can go flirt with a woman, you can go be sexy with her, you could go all the way and have sex with her and the fact that you are just trying and most probably 90% of the time failing, but then like 10% of the time finding something that is way better than what most men have because that's a huge privilege. It's not a right.

F: Oh, beautiful. I love it. I feel like you guys should come back if we have a second season because it was so wonderful. You guys are the best. Thank you so much for sharing all of your wisdom and experiences and being so open and I'm sure so many people are gonna benefit from this episode. So thank you.

A: Thanks for having us.

F: That's it for today guys. I hope that you enjoyed as much as I did because I certainly had a great time chatting with them. Please don't forget to share the podcast. I would really, really appreciate it. It would mean so much to me. You can find us on Instagram at @PolycuriousPodcast and you can write to us at our email polycuriouspodcast@gmail.com thank you guys for listening and I'll catch you all next week.