Seth: For me since I'm not balancing this out by me going out on dates and me being open yet, at least. So then it's a focus exercise for me, right? Like am I going to focus on this thing that I feel like I'm wired to focus on, which is like thinking about you out there with somebody else, or am I going to be focusing on enjoying that I have a solo night or that I have the space to enjoy the apartment by myself and do whatever I want, want and enjoy that as my introverted self does.

Fernanda: Hi everyone, this is Polycurious I am Fernanda. And today's episode is very special for me personally. It's been such a wonderful journey to learn from so many couples who opened up to us about their relationship and I felt like it was only fair if I did the same. So in this episode I interviewed Seth, who is my partner of almost three years. And so far he hasn't seeickd out to be non-monogamous despite having a partner who is, that's obviously me. So many people have asked me so many questions about, our very unusual relationship. And in this episode we attempt to answer some of them. We talk about sets upbringing as a homeschooler and the son of a pastor in a small midwestern town. He tells us how he went from that to discovering other ways of looking ah, at life. We talk about how we met at Burning Man. And of course we touch on the reasons why he's not seeking out non-monogamy. We tell you what our boundaries are and how they have evolved. And lastly, we talk about how it has been really important for us and our relationship to maintain our independence and allow each other to be ourselves. This is our second to last episode of the season. Next one will be another interview with my wonderful co-host Mariah. So stay tuned for that. But first, I am so excited for you guys to meet Seth. I can honestly say I have never met someone like him and I hope that you learn from him as much as I have. Here's my interview with Seth. Hi my love.

S: Hi baby.

F: I'm so excited for this and it's also a little weird to be talking to you. It definitely feels like you are a special kind of guest.

S: Thanks for having me in your lovely.

F: Studio meaning ar apartment in Bushwick set is my partner who I love very much and he seems to love me a lot as well because he truth because he agreed to do this interview and he's such, ah, an inspiration for me that I just wanted everyone to meet him and learn from him because we need more men like him in the world.

S: Well, I don't know about that, but, I'm glad to be here. It's been quite the experience, learning experience for me to sort of enter into this world with you. And it's good to talk about it. So I'm glad to share our unique situation, which I think is pretty unique.

F: I don't know anyone in our situation, babe.

S: But, yeah, I think, Wouldn't have guessed I would be here in this state, and this type of relationship, but I'm, grateful for it every day.

F: Awh. I'm grateful for you every day. So why don't you start telling us who you are outside of being my partner?

S: Well, I am a product designer. I actually work at Facebook right now. I'm originally from Nebraska, Middle of, nowhere. A small town of about 900 people. So I am also a DJ. I haven't been playing a whole lot lately, mostly due to Covid and moving to New York. But, I'been DJing for about 12 years, so that's a big part of my life too.

F: Yeah, I mean, I do want to get into your background a little bit more as the son of a pastor in a, small Midwestern town. And I met you at Burning Man, so obviously you've been through a lot, but can you take us back to your upbringing?

S: Yeah, so I'm actually, as you said, my dad is a pastor. My mom is a stay at home mom. I mean, was. They are retired now, but I mean.

F: She's still staying at home. She's still staying at home and she's still on.

S: She's not retired, but my dad's retired from being a pastor, so she got the raw end of that deal. no. but I am the second youngest of six kids, so definitely a Midwestern Christian family. I was homeschooled all the way through high school. I graduated from Laos Academy, which is the name of our homeschool. We had a name. Yes, it was official. And, generally very strict growing up Christian household, Very loving household. My parents are absolute treasure. I love them to death.

F: Yeah, they're great.

S: My sisters, I have four older sisters and a little brother. All of my sisters were married by about 22, 21, and me and my brother are the youngest and we're still not married. But, I'm obviously with you, my life partner. And yeah, so that's kind of the background. But it took me a while to sor of obviously get to where I am. Now, I guess when I think about how I got here after that type of childhood and being limited, like in high school, for example. Even in high school, technically I wasn't allowed to have a girlfriend until I was like 16 or something like that. I don't remember what the age was, but I had like a secret girlfriend when I was 14 at the skating rink that I would meet every once in a while, and have secret phone calls with her in the basement, in the cellar. pretty sure they totally knew that that was going on, but, they played as if they didn't. so it wasn't like a harsh, strict, it was just like there were definitely rules, that we were supposed to abide by.

F: And when do you have your first non secret girlfriend?

S: I think it was 16 or 17. And that actually ended up being one of my longest relationships. I was with her until after I graduated high school. And so I was with her for like, three and a half years. Ish.

F: You were with her for longer than we have been together, which is crazy.

S: Pretty weird.

F: And all of that time waiting to get married to have sex, if I'm correct.

S: Yeah, I was definitely bought into the Christian lifestyle until it started to shift. So before I go into like the next phases, I think it's interesting to talk about what type of person you are. because I think it really drove my journey. Coming from a sheltered background that I was is like, how can I get away from what I'm used to and how can I experience something new and like move beyond my comfort zone and find new adventures. Right. So that's one side and then the other side that drove me was wanting to understand how things worked or understand other points of view. And I think that's what pushed me to leave Nebraska when I was I think it was like a sophomore in college. I transferred to Parsons out in New York and started to discover new lifestyles, new ways of living and new points of view beyond very far right, very religious type of community that I was from. So it definitely started there, but it was a slow build even then. I was abstinent until I was 26, 25 or 26. And I definitely shifted away from my, more strict Christian, right wing sort of background way before that. Probably as early as when I was 21 or 22.

F: And it was through music from what I remember. Right.

S: Yes. So after New York, I went back to Omaha to work for a while. I met some guys throwing a party on my rooftop in Omaha and I'd always been into music. There's a lot of indie shows in Omaha on indie rock, but that's very different than this. And I quickly became friends with them and they started to teach me to dj and I became their marketer and designer and created a brand. And we started to throw these parties all over Omaha, like these big parties, and started to play out with them and got into that nightlife scene. That's really, in the end, what changed my life and showed me what else is out there. I mean, we threw raves, but also I met this really forward thinking, progressive group of people that were a part of this community in Omar that I wasn't even aware of and became really close to them and just really opened my eyes to other ways of love living and other ways of looking at life. But even then, it took me a while to open up to the idea that I was going to go so far as to now have sex before I was married. That was a big deal. that was a big shift.

F: That's so crazy to me, babe, because I'm 26, imagine if I hadn't had sex, up to this point. I always think about that and I'm just like, it's so crazy.

S: Yeah, it's pretty wild. It's wild for me to think about now too, for sure. And I'm very much of an introvert anyway. It wasn't like I was necessarily still committed to being abstinent all the way up until 26. It was just that I didn't put myself out there or try to put myself in a situation. It just kind of happened gradually. And then I was in a relationship with this girl in Omaha and it just kind of happened as naturally as it would if somebody was, with somebody for the first time. Except it was like she knew that I had been abstinent for all this time.

F: And so she and you guys were roommates.

S: Is this okay? And we were roommates.

F: Cause that's another thing. You didn't even have to put yourself out there. She literally, you. You.

S: The barriers were gone. And that was my. The only way to break my abstinence was if, like, there was no, absolutely zero barriers.

F: Like, basically, if he.

S: That's what it took.

F: If he lived with a roommate who wanted to have sex with him, that was the only way out of your abstinence.

S: Yep, yep, it did. It did. I mean, obviously would have happened anyway at some point, but I guess I needed that lack of barriers to. Yeah. To let it happen.

F: Yeah. And it's also interesting because I think that even after you had sex, I think that you were also not putting yourself out there. And I think that we live in a culture in which women are used to the man really putting himself out there and kind of reaching out.

S: Yeah, that was never me. Never me. And it still isn't, It definitely still isn't. I think it's probably a range of reasons. I Natural very and very much introverted. Having four older sisters, too. I heard tons of stories of, like, disrespectful guys coming up and, like, catalling and all of this other, like, like, ways, to hit on a girl that are not flattering and not respectful. And I think I was just like, I never want to be like anybody like that. I think it's also related to my religious background, also related to being homeschooled and not growing up in a community of high schoolers. I never really learned this. This is how you hit on somebody or this is how you, you know, approach a girl that you're interested. So it took me a while, but eventually the barriers were gone and I had that opportunity and broke through that thing that I was holding ono from that belief or way of life. And, Yeah, that was like, nine, ten years ago. About ten years ago, yeah.

F: Even after that, you wouldn't approach women much, which is why you were such a good catch. And you were single when we met.

S: I was just waiting for you, babe.

F: I mean, I don't understand how. But you were single for seven years before we met or something like that.

S: Yeah, so I didn't have a steady girlfriend for that whole time, but I did have flings during that time. I had a few Burning Man relationships that were pretty serious at first and then fizzled out when I realized, or we realized, that we were different people off the playa. So when I met you, it was my fifth year at Burning Man, and I had decided to go to Burning Man with the intention to not necessarily not connect with somebody or meet somebody or come home with somebody, but just that I wasn't going to seek it out. I was just gonna go to just focus on myself. It's funny because you hear people say, like, that's when it happens, is when you decide to focus on yourself and not focusing on putting yourself out there. And it was like, well, yeah, that happened. That's how it was.

F: Yeah, it's true.

S: So I guess we could tell the story of how we met. Is that what's next? Are we doing that?

F: Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course. Because I think it also has to do with that, looseness of being at Burning Man. That made you a lot more open to being forward. Cause I wouldn't say you weren't forward with me. I mean, I'm also a forward person if I like somebody, but I never doubt it if you like me or not. And I feel like from what you've told me, maybe other girlfriends weren't really sure that you were into them because you weren't, ah, as assertive. Or is that, a, misconception I have?

S: I think what you're thinking about is one specifically where, in terms of reaching that point to connect sexually with somebody. I put that off for a little bit too long because I was misreading the signals. And she just, decided that I wasn't attracted to her and, decided that we were just going to be friends. And that was a hard lesson for me too, because I was really into her, but just like, totally misreading her, sort of pulling back. But she was playing a game and wanting me to chase her down. And like, I mean, it's a standard game, right? But for me, I was like, I don't know. I'm just trying to be respectful here. I'm notn to cross that line unless I feel like it's soah. That didn't end well.

F: Oh, I'm sorry, baby. She missed out. But, even with us, I feel like that's something that we had to work with at the beginning more than now. I think that we still. You still could be a little less, Polite.

S: Yeah, yeah, it's true. It's something that is so, I think, built to me. So, yeah, if that's what you're talking about, then yes. But when you grow up that long thinking and having these certain limitations. For example, when I was living at home, we were trained. Trained, but we were told, or there was rules around for watching a show, watching television, which television didn't even come into my household until it was like 13 or something. But then when we would be watching things, we would have to, look away when there was any sort of promiscuous scene or sexy scene of any kind. or we would just have to fast forward it, right? So it was like always built into me that I needed publicly. This is why it's messed up. I think it's like publicly or in front of people. I was this certain way because I was just trained over time. This is how you don't do those things. But I was looking at porn, like, and masturbating but yeah, I was taught to hold back that type of signal or emotion or acknowledgement or whatever. And so, I mean, as you said, it's been something that I have to think about and push myself forward, you know, to continue to try to make progress and know that you want that.

F: Yeah. And it's so interesting because I grew up kind of the opposite. Like, you know, I grew up in a Cuban family. I grew up in Mexico, but, my parents are divorced and I grew up with my mom and my aunts and all the Cubans that kind of transited from Cuba to Mexico. But Cuban culture or at least in my family is very sexual. So my mom would like cut my skirts short since I was little and she could let me have my boyfriend sleep over when I was 13.

S: And so pretty much same m as my child did. Yeah, exactly same.

F: But anyhow, back to when we met at.

S: Yeah, we were saying when we met. So it was my fifth year. It was your first year at Burning Man. We were both at Won at the same camp. It was a large camp that was like one.

F: 120 people.

S: 120. And I had seen you around and noticed you for sure. And I was like, who is this girl? I hope that I have the opportunity. But as I mentioned, I wasn't going to Burning Man with the intention of connecting with somebody like that. I was going with just like, this is for me. And so I didn't seek it out. I saw you doing acro yoga. I think I'd seen you before. But that's when I was like, wow, she's gorgeous. And you just had to really great energy around you and like this light and bright. I don't know. I was like, wow. I again didn't approach you at that point because that's me.

F: And this whole time I had no idea you were in my camp because you were never around. Like I remember once we were eating.

S: I like to go out at Burning Man.

F: Yeah, we were once eating and then someone said something like, and thank you to Seth for having worked so hard on the build up or whatever. And everyone was like looking around where it.

S: I wasn't even there for when they thanked me. That's the way it is. at Burning Man I'm out with my friends constantly.

F: So I didn't even know you were at camp until you djed and I was like dancing to your music. And then someone was like, oh yeah, he's in our camp. And I was like, really? And I was like, oh, how cute. And this is good music.

S: So we had a couple chances to notice each other. And I had had an all nighter Thursday night. I think it was right because we met Friday, right? Yeah. A psychedelic journey of sorts that was just magical. And psychedelics are an incredible gift because I definitely deal with anxiety in my life fairly constantly. And the next day I'm usually super clear and free from anxiety, which is like one of the few moments in my life that I can say that that's true. It's like just gone sometimes. And so the next day, Friday, I was so clear headed, totally sober, I had great day of sleep. And I remember walking out, I think I had dinner first or something and walked out and there was a DJ playing. We have this beautiful tent area and I was walking from one side of the dance floor. And it'be interesting to see if you tell this story the same way or if you have any corrections, which you know is Burning Man kind of.

F: But we were both sober at.

S: But we were both sober, that's the thing. And we both walked towards each other and met literally in the middle of the dance floor and the DJs playing tunes and people are dancing around us and we just talked and I was just like, wow, I'm really feeling connected to this being right now in front of me.

F: Yeah, I remember meeting you and I think I said something like, yeah, I can't believe we haven't met even though we're in the same camp. And then I don't know if you said or I said. I mean, I would say that it was probably me, but maybe you were feelingly loose this night because of your psychedelic trip. But one of us was like, oh, well then let's just hang out tonight.

S: Yeah, we just decided within 30 minutes, which we talked for 30 minutes on that day.

F: I don't even think it was like 30 minutes. We were just like, oh, we haven't met. Oh yeah, well we should meet tonight.

S: It wasn't even like should. We were like, we're going to go out, we're going to go out tonight, let's go see the sunrise or something. It was.

F: That wasn't part of the plant, it seem.

S: Rem I remember going into that was like, we're going to go out all night. That's the expectation. So even if you didn't say that, that was what was going through my head. Cause that's how I also, I guess how I do Burning Man.

F: But I mean, obviously we were gonna go to the sunrise if I was gonna stay with you, it's a different question. It was just, let's swing out for a little bit. No, obviously not. Obviously not. I mean, I couldn't get apart from you for the rest of the burn. And, yeah, even when you left, I didn't wanna leave you. But I remember that night we ended up watching the sunrise in this little, car looking structure in the middle of the desert. And I remember crying, telling you about my life and my, struggles as a young journalist. And just very deep connection from the very beginning. And at that point you lived in San Francisco, I lived in New York. And I told you that I was interested in having an open relationship because I already knew, like, this is gonna go somewhere. So is this something that you are into?

S: I really appreciated about you that you kind of opened up, that first night and I sensed that you are a very genuine person, which is something that I really seek out and I connect to. I really believe in being genuine and transparent and sharing openly. And you definitely did that. And then you told me that you wanted to be open and I was like, wow, I have no idea what that would be like, but I feel like I could do that with you. Just because I felt from the beginning that you don't hold back your feelings. And I think that you don't give any room for me to wonder how you feel about me. You're really good at expressing that and that really counters worry really well. Or like an anxious person like myself, who can overthink things. You don't really give room for that. That's why initially I was like, okay, well, never imagined I would be considering that. But also, we can figure that out together. I don't know what that looks like.

F: But I discovered later that you didn't want to be open yourself.

S: I was just saying I was being, open to you being open.

F: Yeah.

S: But I guess I wasn't necessarily thinking about it that much either. I was just like, okay, I don't know what that looks like, but, I'm down to try whatever it is you're talking about.

F: Yeah. And then whatever's in your head. You seem cool. You seem, good enough for me to try whatever you want me to do. and then we just kept going back and forth from San Francisco and New York, like every two weeks or so. And I wonder if it was like, after the first time I came to San Francisco that you actually asked me to be your girlfriend.

S: Yeah, I was official like that.

F: That was so cute, baby. Because I don't think I'd been as that since I was like, 13 or something. You know, it's funny because at the time, to be honest with you, maybe I've never, What is it?

S: Name?

F: Yeah, exactly. Maybe I've never confessd this to you, but I was like, yeah, of course I'll be your girlfriend. And then afterwards I was like, wait a second, does this mean I cannot have sex with my friend anymore? And you were like, no, I wouldn't feel comfortable with that. And I was like, what? What? Did I just, like, sign myself abort? But at that point it was too late. Yeah, no, no, but you were super open to those things from the beginning. But I think that at the beginning, we figured out that the m. Middle ground was for me just to go to play parties. Right. That's something that you felt okay with?

S: Yeah, that was the first step we made. That was probably, what, like, few months into our relationship or something. It wasn't too far in, but I think for me, it's the, romantic side that has been the harder thing for me to picture or give up. I don't know. I mean, I think the sex party thing for me was just more of an accessible thing. So we decided on that as being your first, I guess our first step to you having that freedom. which the first time, it was a little difficult even at that stage. And what's continued to be the case, too, is for me, since I'm not, balancing this out by me going out on dates and me being open yet, at least. So then it's a focus exercise for me. Right. Am I going to focus on this thing that I feel like I'm wired to focus on, which is like, thinking about you out there with somebody else? Or am I going to be focusing on enjoying that I have a solo night, or that I have the space to enjoy the apartment by myself and do whatever I want and enjoy that as my introverted does, I can focus on either. It's very easy to focus on you being out there with some guy and feel jealous about that. Even from the beginning, that's been an exercise, but it's been something that it works because it's true. It gives me space, and I like to have that space every once in a while. It's a nice, refreshing thing for me, and I just have to learn to focus on that. I have to train myself to focus on that.

F: Yeah, but you jumping ahead a little bit because at the point that we had that rule about play parties, we weren't even together. You were still in San Francisco. Why did you choose not to take those liberties as well?

S: Yeah, and I guess for me, it's not that I'm not open to being open. I'm not saying I'm not going to be, but I am not necessarily needing that or seeking that out. I think I get a lot from our relationship. It gives me what I need in terms of love and affection and sexual connection and that kind of energy. And when I have the opportunity, if you'going out, I would rather just spend that on me or doing things that, you know, looking forward to do. I don't know. For me, there's something so recharging about being alone for a time. It's not something I want to do forever, but it's just like I need that. You know, work is very social. Like I'm in meetings constantly. And we have our great time together and I love living with you and sharing that life. But I also need that time. I actually am recharging my batteries when it's just me and I'm not thinking about anybody else being around me.

F: Yeah. And we've talked about that how for me recharging my batteries, I mean, sometimes it's also being on my own, which is something that I don't get to do as often because you are often home.

S: Claim I've claimed my land.

F: No. Well, you're going to Miami this weekend.

S: Yeah, you make use of it, but see.

F: Exactly. No, but I already booked myself this whole weekend to be with people because that's kind of my nature, you know.

S: Like when you're free to do something, you schedule time with people. When I'm free to do something, a scheduled time mostly with myself. Also going out with my buddies or whatever, but not necessarily, if I were to pursue another relationship or want to meet somebody else, like, yeah, that would be fun. And I think there's a lot of reward and that connection that can happen as a result of that. A lot of reward. That first time connection or the first sexual encounter, all of that is incredibly energizing and rewarding. I'm not saying I don't enjoy that and I very much do. But for me that's a lot of work to get to that point. And there's. I'm very empathetic person and I'm always paying attention to what people are thinking and how they're thinking about me. And a lot of it is unhealthy too, or not like something that I would choose to feel, but I do. And I, Pay attention to these things, and I pay attention to people's perception of me and how they're feeling and wanting to make people comfortable. And so it's a lot of energy for me. And right now in my life, I'm really happy with things. Like, I really feel like I've honestly found a great balance and life is great.

F: I wanted to talk about how our, rules changed. So obviously, we don't have that rule that I can only go to play parties anymore. And, that changed because at some point I realized, and I've talked about this, during the podcast, that I just didn'tnna just go to a play party and kind of see who was there and put myself in uncomfortable situations. At some point. I have a talk with you because before I met you, I had friends with benefits. I was single, but I'd see friends and I'd be intimate with them, but I didn't want to have a relationship with them. So in my head, it was like, why can I not just see those friends? Why am I at this party looking for a, sexual connection when I already have sexual connections with other people? So that was a conversation that we had. And then I think the rule became that I could only see people who had a partner, and I could only see them once a month.

S: Yeah, I think you're talking about our phases and our stages, and I think that's something important because for somebody like me who was not coming from this way of doing relationships or anything close, really, this was very intentional for me because I didn't know how much I could handle or how far we could go. I said that from the beginning. Like, I'm down to explore this with you.

F: And that's also something that I said. We both went into it like, okay, well, let's try and see. But, always, like, seeing it as an experiment from the very beginning, as.

S: An experiment is exactly right. I think that thing that I was cognizant of and trying to be sensitive to was I don't want to build resentment or be surprised by the fact that my feelings for you are slowing or that, can happen in relationships. And I don't know how much I can take or what jealousy will do to me or what these different situations are going to make me feel like in the long run. I've been trying from the beginning to set. Okay, here's our expectations for right now. I think working with you on this, you've been really good at this, too. Is like, what structure can we provide for this Next phase. Every stage, we open up a little bit more. We reach a new space, a new. Like, now you can date other people, now you can stay overnight somewhere. These have been intentional steps that we've said, okay, let's. We've talked about it, and let's take this step together and let's hang out here for a little bit at this step, because I think it's important not to do something, okay, I feel great next day. So let's go further. It's like, no, you don't know how that's going to affect you a couple weeks from now either. So for me, it's been really important for us to commit to those steps and commit to those steps for a certain amount of time before we choose to go further to make sure that we're not, impacting our relationship in a way we don't understand or don't see.

F: Yeah. Yeah. And I think for me, I knew, and I appreciated from the very beginning how open you were, because you've been just incredible throughout this process. But I knew from the very beginning that at the very least I wanted to have friends with benefits. And what I didn't know, and I guess I still don't know, is if I wanted something else, something more like on the polyamorous side. But I think that at the beginning, my frustration was that I knew I would feel comfortable with friends with benefits. And then I was getting play parties which were not fulfilling the same need. My need was for deep connection, even if it's just sexual, but you don't get a deep connection with someone you meet at a plea party and see for a couple of hours. So I think that at the beginning, that wasn't fulfilling any of us. It wasn't making me happy go to play partis, and it wasn't making you happy that I was going to play part. So that was like a readjustment. But yes, it was, to your point, kind of like to try the less threatening thing, like level one, which for you, the easiest thing for you to think about what's of me going to play party. So we tried that for a little bit.

S: It's compartmentalized. I think that's why. And it doesn't really seem like something that will last beyond the time that it is.

F: Yeah, so we tried that for a little bit. I mean, we tried that for a while, actually. I think people sometimes they are surprised because they think that we'being as open as we are for a while. But I think that the first time that I was Able to actually have a date with someone in which I could go and have sex with them and not even stay over. Was September or something. It was like last September. Now it's May. So. Yeah. So I guess it's been a while. But I mean, we've been together for two and a half years, so the majority of our relationship has been more monogamish than where we are now, which is a totally different stage that we've been exploring more recently.

S: Yeah. I think, communication is so key because your idea of a timeline is very different than my idea of a timeline. I'm thinking, okay, we'll try this phase for a period of months and we won't worry about the next thing until six months from now or something. And you always or have been thinking on a faster scale. And that's fine, I think. But the important thing is that we're coming together and talking about these things. And then we arrive at, when is right and you hear me out and see what I can handle. Hear me talk about what I think I can handle. And then we come to a yeah, no, baby.

F: And you've been so good and so accepting of all of it. I feel like something that I've really loved about this process is that when you. You have these feelings of jealousy. I don't feel like you have ever put those feelings on me except when.

S: I have a cool down period. Typically I need some, like a day after you get back to feel the desire to be affectionate with you again. And that's.

F: But that's notting. But that's not putting it on me. That's the opposite.

S: The reason why you'refying for people. I think that's important to, like, it's not just a piece of cake. And you come back and I'm like all like, hey, welcome back. You. Let's be intimate. I have to adjust a little bit.

F: Yeah. And I come back, like, horny.

S: Y. we kind of meet at different points there.

F: And that's. That was like a realization that we had at some point. I was like, okay, a little disappointed. Cause I miss you. When I was away and I would come back horny, and then you'd be like, I feel a little weird that you are horny because you had sex with someone. Yeah.

S: It's just too near. I mean. But I think that feeling is fading. But it's still there. And so that's something that we talked about. And I said, when you come back, I don't expect us to be intimate that night.

F: And Just setting that, yeah, setting the expectation. Because now that I know, I don't mind at all, like if that's surprise for me to go and have an experience with someone else, like, I'll pay and then we'll have sex the next day and it'll be great. And I mean, as you said, you are getting more comfortable with that. So it's not even that much of an issue anymore. But to my point, you don't put your feelings on me. Even though you feel jealousy and even though you feel weird about having sex. And yes, sometimes you're a little, less, affectionate. Affectionate as you normally are. But I know why it is because you've told me so I don't take it personally because it's normal that you feel that way. It's understandable that you feel that way. And the fact that you are putting yourself through a little bit of hurt for me to have this experience is like something that I really appreciate. And I'm just like so proud of the way that you've approached it because you've been very mature about it. Because from the beginning, being like, okay, if you go out and I feel jealous and we just continue doing it in a way that's consistent for me, I get used to it and then I can move to a different level.

S: That's the thing. It's like adjusting and getting used to it and making sure you're not building calluses. You don't want to build calluses and be less affectionate. You want to still be yourself and be genuine and expressive. But I think, I don't know, I guess I'm open to this because I genuinely believe that uncomfortable situations lead to knowing yourself better and understanding your feelings better. And putting yourself through that little bit of pain or uncomfort actually helps you grow. And if done right in this way, that's like manageable little bite sized chunks at least. And I think it's not like something that I seek out, but it's something that I see. And I'm like, yeah, that's a good opportunity for me to train myself a little bit more on how to manage my emotions. And it's just an exercise really. And it's an exercise in the sense that it takes some focus and it builds muscle and builds. Helps you train your mind and train your heart, I think too. So in the sense it's good for me in a way. So that's why I think like, I'm fine with it.

F: Yeah, I guess that we've just evolved like that. And one thing that I did want to talk about is how at first one of the rules we had was that I could not be with people that you knew.

S: No. Yeah.

F: And that changed because I had a friend who you also knew who I wanted to see sexually. You. I had kiss him at, one of those festivals or getaways or whatever.

S: One of them festivals.

F: One of them festivals I knew you guys knew each other, but I just asked if I could see him. And you had agreed that I could have sex with this person. And we weren't sure if it was better to do it before or after going to this festival together in which both this person and you were gonna be there. And then we ended up deciding that it would happen before.

S: Yeah, we decided it would be a good atmosphere for us to test this.

F: Exactly.

S: To test how if we're going to do this, we might as well do it in a fun environment where, well, there'be enough people and the atmosphere is right. It seemed like a good way to test this, sort of next step sort of thing. Yeah.

F: Yeah. And how was the experience for you?

S: Yeah, it was pretty okay. I think it was easier than I thought it would be. I think there was maybe some moments of awkwardness for me just internally, but it wasn't something that lasted beyond once we started chatting or talking or hanging out. It was like pretty natural after that.

F: Yeah. And I think that it did help that this person was already friends with you or like he knew you already. and he had come to our place twice to parties here. So you guys were already comfortable around each other.

S: Yeaheah. I think that probably helped, break the ice, so to speak. There was no ice to break really. It was just like I already knew them, so there wasn't a weird like, hi, I'm Seth. which I'm sure that will be fine too. But I think every situation like that may have some little bits of awkwardness just because you're thinking about things a little bit more than you otherwise would. But I don't really think it's really much more than that. Seems to be okay. And I guess I think you're probably right, that it makes it easier. I think that's something that you were sharing with me before, was that knowing the person removes the mystery and therefore makes it more tangible. Not in a bad way, but in a good way. That then you're not left wondering who this mystery Man is and how you may feel about them, but it just makes it more like, oh, he's that person. And the mystery is greater than reality in terms of worry and fear. Right. So if you know who that person is, then you. It grounds those anxieties.

F: Yeah. And it's just another example of how our boundaries have changed. Because one expectation was that I would only be with people that you didn't know. Now you are realizing that in a way it makes it less threatening if you know that person. And that's just like true trial and error. so that's also something that I hope that people take with them, whether if it's because of an age difference or a personality difference. You are 35, I'm, 26. And you are not as interested as I am on going to festivals and going out. So it happens a lot to my.

S: Fair share of festivals and I do like to go. But yeah, not near as much as you right now. For sure.

F: Yeah. I mean you've. You organized parties, you went to Burning Man six times. You've lived through it and you are kind of like slowing down from that. And I'm, Not at all. So. Happens very often that I not only go to festivals on my own, but I also just go out to parties on my own. And to this day that's something that happens a lot. And I think that it helps our relationship to have that space. And yeah, we even have a solo night, which is like something that you propose, which is basically just a night during the week in which, we.

S: There's no expectation to be together. I mean'sometimes have dinner together, sometimes we'll have dinner separate. But it's mostly just like a set night with the expectation that we're going to be doing things on our own. And I think you could look at these sort of things as rules or talk about them as rules, but it's not about having rules. It's just about frameworks and like setting expectations. And these things are tools for us to be able to get what we need. and also know what to expect and not be blindsided or surprised. Because I think one thing was challenging. Maybe I'm going off on a tangent here, but I think this is good to share, is that there's definitely been times in this journey where, you know, maybe misjudged the right time to bring up a question or ask if something's alright or if I'm okay with this or that. and it's caught me off guard and maybe it was the wrong time because we were on a date and I just didn't want to have that come up during our date.

F: Oh, yeah, that was a rough one. I was still terrible. No, there is even a worse one that I was thinking about and thinking of mistakes that I've made in this relationship. remember mistakes? We've both made mistakes. But I'm gonna give you guys a juicy one. so I was, like, on a date with someone, and it wasn't even a date because at this point, I think we weren't fully open, but it was kind of like, platonic date. Caus. It was Covid and we couldn't kiss. And I literally texted you during the date, babe. We just, like, shared smoothies by mistake. Can I just kiss this guy right now? And, like, obviously I was like, wow, what a setup.

S: So you've got an excuse.

F: Planet Rightus.

S: Oh, we accidentally had a shake together, so might as well make out.

F: And I was like, no, nous. So I had already made out with this guy, and the reason why I couldn't make out with him again, according to Seth, was because of Covid But then I accidentally shared a drink with him. So if it was because of Covid I was gonna get it anyway. So I, like, literally texted sa during my day, like, hey, can I kiss this guy? Terrible, terrible move.

S: I think I just responded no. Like, period. Which is.

F: No, no, you responded in a very nice way.

S: Because in my mind, I was just like, nope.

F: Yeah, I mean, you responded. Yeah, you responded.

S: I mean, I was still learning the stage that we were at. And so I think that's the thing is, like, setting up expectations and putting frameworks in place so that you know when and where and, like, how it's appropriate.

F: Yeah. I must say, like, that was probably, like, our biggest struggle. The fact that I never knew how to bring things up or when.

S: Yeah. Because no time is a good time unless the time has been set as an expectation. Right. And so that's something we realized and ultimately why we landed where we are now, which is our current phase, and we'll see where we go from here. But, like, right now, it's every other week is the expectation. It's not a rule. If it happens outside of that, that's fine. And that's why I think it helps us, is it provides structure, but at the same time, it's not a limiting thing. You can still ask or bring something up outside of that, but you know that you need to be sensitive about that, because I'm not expecting that. Whereas if you stick to the pattern, I'm not surprised. And I'm actually already planning on that and so it doesn't throw me off to think about you wanting to go on a date with this guy when I'm like, well, did you just go?

F: So you like it because you know that it's been two weeks. I'm probably going to go on a date. It makes rhythm and I like it because I don't ask, but I just say like, hey, well, I do ask. I still check in checking it, is it okay? But he's expecting it because we have these two week rules. So having that two week rule, not rule. What? Not rule, framework, rule agreement. Actually, I. Guidelines actually used to tell people I have this rule with set that I can only see people every two weekends. And I recently changed that. Now I'm saying agreement. I have this agreement with Seth because that's what it really is. I agree to this as well.

S: But I guess I'm just trying to stress that it's not like you're not allowed or whatever you want to say to go outside of that.

F: It's just, I mean, no. And I mean, we started I could only go to play parties once a month. Now it's like I can have proper dates in which I stay over once every two weeks. And yes, it's taking us two and a half years to get there, but it hasn't been very problematic for us. There haven't been many, discussions. It's just been communication. And you've never put your jealousy or your resentment, even though you ve felt it a little bit, but you got kind of used to it. You've never put it on me. So it's never been an issue. And that's why I wanted to have you on this podcast. Because especially as a man, it's really hard to not let your ego get the better part of yourself. And I think that you are a very egoless person. Not egoless. I've seen your ego, see your ego. I see your egos every once in a while. It picks out. But you've never made me feel guilty for doing something that we agreed upon or even for making a mistake. You are always, even though I hurt you, like you are forgiving, like I am with you. I feel like both, we're both just communicative. And you know, I think that, yeah, I'm not saying that it hasn't been hard at points, but I think that we've had it a lot easier than a lot of couples that have, well, I think ventured into non-monogamy as.

S: I think, number one, you never make me wonder how you're feeling, about me. I never feel like I'm left, you know, something changed. Does she feel different? Like you're super expressive and affection y of my affection. Yeah. And so that counters a lot of worries that would normally be present. Takeaks that too.

F: In a way, I'm more affectionate with you when I'm with other people. Because I'm thankful.

S: Yeah, maybe.

F: Yeah, I guess I'm m horny but.

S: And the other thing that I wanted to say on that was that as a couple, when you're in a situation like this, it forces you to have harder conversations more often. And I think that is how a relationship grows stronger is when you have deep, real hard conversations with each other. And we even have to like sometimes create structure around that. Like we have our every other week we have, it's called relationship talk on our calendar.

F: No know how embarrassing is that? Like the name. But like I was just like, this is what it is. Like it's a talk about our relationship. Like, what's wrong with it? But was like, no, it's not good. So I was like, okay, babe, let's. Let's name it. I don't know, I've come up with different names. Then I was like, relationships.

S: I think I'm just like, nothing is right. Because anything you see on the cal that's like, let's talk hard to heart. It'just like, okay, that's. Anyway, yah, enough about the name. But we do have that on our.

F: Calendar those hard conversations scheduled. So when something comes up and it doesn't have to be about non-monogamy When something comes up, instead of saying it while we are in the heat of the moment and annoyed with one another, we just keep it to ourselves and like maybe write it down if we remember and then we bring it up. And obviously we can bring up things outside of the two week conversation, but to it. But you know, we both come into it prepared to receive criticism and ready with criticism. So it creates a better atmosphere to discuss problems. As I'm sure people have realized by listening to this. We've come very far and we don't know where we're going, but we just take it day by day, step by step. And so far it hasn't been dramatic. And I think I've experienced more drama on own in my own world. Oh, actually I wanted to talk about this baby because we also kind of have done us don't tell kind of policy. I mean, not in the sense that that you know what I'm doing, but, like, I never talk about my dates with you. I might mention it, but it's not often. Andeah, I think that you've resisted the temptation to want to know more about it, or maybe you don't have temptation at all.

S: It's not really a temptation yet for me. I think things change, and as we get more comfortable with this sort of situation, it could change. But I, don't have really any desire to want to know any of the details, which is something we're figuring out. I think you naturally want to share, and that's your form of being affectionate to. Is talking about and sharing experiences and talking about those experiences. But it's not something that I really necessarily am looking for right now. Like I said, for me, it's a focus thing, and it works when I'm focusing on. When you're gone, I'm focusing on the right things. I'm focusing on what I get or, the fact that I get to be alone or whatever. So it's not a positive experience right now or yet for me to really think about what's going on. It's not like I don't. But I focus up my energy elsewhere and that works.

F: Yeah. And I've always thought that there's no reason for me to tell you about maybe the more intimate aspects of my relationship with someone else. I think the part I would maybe like to share more is when I have experiences outside, and especially when I go on festivals or things like that, and I come back and yeah, it's a whole journey, and there are parts of that journey that I cannot share with you. And I think that's the part that I wish I could share a little bit more of. But at the same time, I cannot expect you to be in the same page than I am when I come back from a festival after you've been.

S: All weekend, your voice is half gone, and you're trying to tell me all the stories that you've.

F: Yeah, yeah. And like. And he's like, yes, I also had an adventure, and you start telling me about your video game adventure. I was like, yeah, babe, I met these people and then reconciled this trauma, and we created this fairy forest and all of this. And he was like, yeah, well, I saved the last of us. I saved Seattle and went on this journey to try to. Whatever it is, whatever the video game was. So I think that it's important for us to have that separation and that time away. But I think that at least now I'm, in A point in which I want to start sharing more things because I want you to be part of those experiences as well. And you don't come out as much as I do, but yeah, I think that we're doing good. And I'm honestly very proud of our relationship and honestly just, like, amazed by you, baby. Like, whenever we have any difficult conversation, just by the way you communicate and never made me feel wrong, which is something that I never felt in any other relationship. Like, you just make me feel like I can be myself and you trust that I have good intentions and you listen to me and you care for me and you love me and know that we'perfect but I wish there were more men like you in the world.

S: Well, that's sweet, babe. I think this works because, I mean, I'm totally in love with you and I love my life with you. And you are such an independent spirit and you have so much energy and love to give. And, you are infectious to be around and an inspiration to me constantly. And I want us both to be happy. I want you to be happy just as much as myself. And so, I mean, it's never really a question to me. It'like well, if this is the way that you want to go, then we just need to figure out what I can handle and what I can live with and how we can continue to have a healthy relationship with us getting what we want. I mean, you do the same thing for me, though. You totally accept me for who I am and you never make me feel like I am, a strange character, which I kind of am in some ways. I mean, I feel totally supported by you and I'm totally enamored by you. And so as long as we are continuing to communicate and keeping that communication open, which is what you also do really well, you have zero filter. Sometimes that can be a problem. But most of the time that's good. And most of the time that's exactly actually what I need. And the type of partner that I need is somebody who is genuine and speaks their mind and doesn't hold back, dealing with these little bits of jealousy, like I said too, that I experience along the way when we're pushing the boundaries is, in a way, it's good for me too. I see that as growth. it's not something that I feel at all, like, forced down. We talk and you've told me before, if this has to stop or whatever, like, if we hit a the ceiling, then we'figure that out and thats fine. And knowing that thats not a pressure or a situation that I have to worry about. Is also big. Right. As we both know that were looking out for each other first. And we both know that were each others life partners. Thats what were looking at this as. who knows what the future has, but thats the way were treating our relationship as. As such. And that gives confidence to me and I'm comfortable. Life is good.

F: Yeah, baby. I, really appreciate how you really want me to be myself and just let me flourish in whatever weird ways thatus. I'm definitely like the weird one in the. Well, we're both weird in the.

S: That's why we work.

F: Yeah. That's way we work. That's way we work. I guess. But we let each other be weird, you know, and we kind of find the middle ground. And when we don't find the middle ground, then we separate and we each to our weirdness in a different way separately and then together.

S: The independence is great.

F: I think that one of the key takeaways that I feel more relationships could benefit from is that the independence. Well, it's been so wonderful, baby. I had no doubt. I was so excited. You were probably a lot more, nervous about this. It was funny. I was just like, giggling, excitement for.

S: Up the microphones, just grinning, literally ear to ear. And I'm kind of sitting back a little grumpy like, this was a long day. I'm going on vacation tomorrow. I want to get my last job done. That's harsh. But I was also looking forward to connecting with you like this. But it was funny because we were a little bit on separate pages when we started this.

F: Yeah.

S: but this was great. Yeah, it was really good to talk about, and share this. I hope people find this, I don't know, inspiring or helpful.

F: Yeah. Well, before we wrap up, I do want to address something, which is another question that a lot of people have asked me. How do I feel about you being monogamous or whether I wish you were with other people? And to be completely honest, I know that if you were or when you are with someone else, I'm going to feel jealousy. in a way, I'm kind of glad that I kind of have best of both worlds right now. I can be with other people, but I don't have to experience jealousy of you being with other people. But I really wish that you had that experience as well because it's a beautiful experience and also because it would make you understand my side better. And I would love for you to come to, Play party with me and have that. But also, like, maybe just once, you know, because I also like to be on my own and having my own experiences. And again, I haven't had to test my jealousy with you. And yeah, I mean, I'm sure that it'll happen at some point, and people remind me of that, you know, it's gonna happen, right? I mean, some people, it's got to.

S: Just be zero barrier, you know, like.

F: Yeah. I mean, girls out there, no, I mean, know he's not gonna make the first step, so you gotta go straight to him. Make out.

S: Yeah, that's not what I was trying to say, but okay, sure. But yeah, I mean, I'm going to Miami tomorrow, so we'll see what happens out there, huh?

F: Oh, okay. Okay. Setting expectations. Okay, good. Well, babe, I ask every guest, what would you tell to a polycurious person? I know that you are not polycurious.

S: But, I mean, you could say I am. I'm with you, and my life is being impacted by it. And that's with me, right?

F: For sure. You are. Ah, Polyc. Curious by. By mistake.

S: Only curious. but yeah, I mean, I guess I would just say look at it as, I just like anything, it's a chance to experience something new, but look at it as a chance to grow as well. And I think, yeah, I'm sure for people who are interested in that, it's very fun and it's very rewarding in that way. But even for somebody who's not interested in it and maybe in a relationship with it, it's still a chance to grow closer to your partner through deep, hard communication, which is always good. And also a chance for you to grow in terms of how much you know yourself and your limits and your own emot. And your own ability to control your jealousy and maybe the negative aspects of the relationship. And you can learn a lot about that if you work through being in an open relationship, whether you want to be open or not. So I think just, in anything, there's a chance to learn and grow, and there's a positive in everything. If you look at it the right way and challenge yourself in the right way and keep you focused on the right things. I don't know. I guess that's my answer. That's what I got.

F: Your answer. was great for you. Yeah, I know you were gonna be great. I love you so much.

S: Love you too.

F: Thank you for coming to Polycurious

S: Thanks for having me on the show.

F: That's it from us. I hope that you enjoyed this conversation as much as I did. We try to answer most questions, but if you're still curious about our relationship, write to us and I promise that I'll do my best to answer your questions. Please stay tuned for our next and last episode of the season with my co host and best friend, Mariah. She'll update us on so many things that have happened in her life. As usual, our instagram is @PolycuriousPodcast podcast and our Gmail is polycuriouspodcast@gmail.com thank you guys for listening and I'll see you, all once more next week.