Mariah: I think that I was trying to create some sort of relationship anarchy rather than having a primary and a secondary. I wanted them both to be my life partners. I didn't want James to feel like a secondary. He didn't feel like a secondary to me. He felt like a primary.

Fernanda: Hi, everyone, this is Polycurious. I am Fernanda, and today is our very last episode of the season. But before I get sentimental about that, which I do, at the end of the episode, I have one last chat with Mariah. As you probably know by now, she's the occasional co host of this podcast and my best friend. And in our first episode of the season, which you should definitely listen to before listening to this, Mariah talked about the stigma around non-monogamy and about her personal journey up to that point. That interview was over 10 months ago, and so much has changed since. So we felt it would be great to have her own again to show how non-monogamy really is a journey and how things can really change a lot. At, the time we recorded that first episode, Mariah was with Logan, then her primary partner who she lived with. They had been together at that point for three years, but they have since broken up. And in this conversation, we talk about why that happened. Mariah Is now with someone else named James. She started dating nine months ago. And in our conversation, we go deep into what it was like to fall in love with someone while having a primary partner and all the difficulties that came with it, but also all the joy and all the learning. Although she's not close to the idea of opening up again at the moment, she's taking a break from polyamory and exclusively seeing James. So we also talk about how that adjustment has been like for her. But before we get into all of that, she also shares her experience coming out as polyamorous to her family and how that turned out. We talk about so many things. So we better get started with my interview with Mariah.

Hi, Mariah.

M: Hello.

F: Oh, my God, I'm so excited about this interview. It's been. We were counting. It's been 10 months since we last spoke. I mean, in real life, we speak almost every day. I can't wait to talk about how things are now, because things have really changed since last time we spoke.

M: Yeah, I feel like I don't even recognize my life before. And when we kind of started this whole project, it's completely different now.

F: It is. And I can't believe we have come so far. This is the last episode. Aw, it's been so great.

M: It has been. And this has just been wonderful to work on this with you and learning so much in the process. I think all of the interviews we did and even the ones that I wasn't on, I've just learned so much, and we found a lot of people have been reacting in a really positive way to it.

F: yeah, and we'll talk about that and how the podcast experience has been towards the end. but first, why don't you give us a recap of where you were at on that first episode, and then we can talk about where you are now.

M: Yeah. And I think I want to start with my family. Basically, half of my family, knowing I had already told my mom. She was super supportive, even if she needed to take a break from it a little bit here and there, but she's just grown and really has been such a support during this whole time. but at the same time, I was not able to come out to my father's side and that whole side of my family. And since then, I have. I have had that conversation with them, and that was while I was still in my relationship with Logan. So we kind of did it together, and that was just a huge change. I think that it was really good that we did that, especially before we broke up.

F: when you say we, you mean you and Logan. Talk to them. To your dad and. And my stepmom and his wife. Right over zoom

M: Yes. Yeah. Cause obviously, with Covid we. And they're in the keys, too, so it's like you. We can't really get together too much. But I started dating someone new, and it was becoming really serious. And that was when I was like, I am actually poly. And I do feel that I identify with that now and need my family to know, especially if this person, which his name is James, if we start developing something even stronger than what it was at the time. So I felt it was very important, and they weren't prepared for it. I kind of just sent a text, like, hey, are you guys available on Friday? Or whatever to just chat about something? I want to let you guys into my life a little bit and, you know, have just something to tell you, but I want to wait till we can, like, have a Zoom call about it. I think that they came to the Zoom call thinking that I was going to tell them I was pregnant or something. which they did definitely think that. but I was like, nope. So to start off this conversation.

F: Would they have been happy if you were pregnant?

M: I think that they would have been more understanding of that news.

F: Okay. Because it would have been funny. I mean, I know my mom, for example, really wants me to have kids. So if she had taugh that I was giving her that news, and then, I'm like, no, actually, I'm not even committed to one person. She could have been like, what?

M: Well, I think that they kind of knew. I think my father, especially has kind of accepted the fact that I might not ever have kids, and that's okay. And he's kind of accepted that and wants me to be happy. Either way. My dad has been really, you know, not that he agrees with all of my choices throughout my whole life, pretty much. You know, they do recognize that I'm very different in a lot of ways and always have been. But I think that he has learned to accept that about me and has really tried to let me know that all he wants is for me to be happy.

F: Yeah. Yeah. That's great. So what did you tell them and what did they say?

M: Yeah, so it kind of started off with, first off, I'm not pregnant. So, just kind of told them that I wanted to be vulnerable and bring them into my world and what I've been experiencing for the last four years, and that I hope that they approach the conversation with love and understanding and try to approach it from that direction rather than trying to make me wrong. And I kind of led up to that, and that was actually advice I got from a poly friend of mine who kind of just gave me some tips of how to kind of go into the conversation. I thought that that was a really good way to start it off. I think I just had to kind of prepare them that it wasn't going to be something that they were expecting or would even comprehend. I understand how because of the stigma, like we talked about that, you kind of have to get in the minds of other people and how they see the world and how this does not look okay to them. And it did happen to be that type of conversation. You. My father was kind of like, well, definitely wasn't expecting that. I told them right away about, I'm really excited to kind of share this part of me with you. I consider myself polyamorous. And then I went into the definition of what that is. that I can love multiple people at the same time, and that Logan and I are in this together. And this is something that's completely ethical. It's something we both agree to, and that is the structure of our relationship. And they didn't know what to say at first. It was a very one sided conversation to kind of spill everything out. I was also very nervous. So I was just kind of spilling. Right. And I was just like, you know, I also met this guy. We've been dating for I think it was six months at the time. I don't remember exactly, but we had been dating for a while and that I had fallen in love with him and that we are exploring a potential of him being another primary or just being a life partner, someone who's going to be in my life. And we were just trying to figure that out, you know. And then I did share that, you know, he's not necessarily non-monogamous So there's a lot that we are dealing with in trying to navigate that together. And it was very much an exploration at the time. Still is. And then I kind of told them how we've been open from the beginning. That was four years and our relationship was built on it.

F: And Logan was also seeing other people.

M: Yeah, they actually asked that question to him that Mariah has his partner, but are you seeing other people? And he answered with, you know, yes, I am. I haven't found anyone that I fell in love with and I definitely don't explore as much as I do as Mariah does, but I do see other people. And at that time too, because I was dating James, I found that he was dating a lot more too because.

F: Of that to kind of like balance things out.

M: I don't think it was because he was trying to balance or either of us were. But I think me dating James. Well, first off, I'm a very intense person in general. Like I have a lot of energy, I require a lot of attention.

F: And I disagree. I don't disagree with you having a lot of energy and requiring a lot of attention. But I don't think you're an intense person. You are a very level headed at least with me, you know, I don't know, maybe with your partners, you or a little bit more crazy. But to me you're a very sensible person.

M: Yeah, thank you. I mean, yes.

F: And also intense in a good way, I guess.

M: Right? Yeah. I don't find it intents to be bad. And that's actually something I'm learning from this breakup as well. which we'll kind of get into. But I do consider myself a lot to handle or a lot to be with. And I also know that that's okay and that for the right person, that that's perfect. Right. But that's kind of been a theme.

F: My whole life so you think that Logan was seeing other people because you kind of gave him the space because you were busy with James?

M: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.

F: Ah.

M: And yeah. And also kind of cleared a lot of the jealousy that I was experiencing because I was experiencing something really beautiful. And it just allowed for me to focus that energy more on a new relationship than it was on being jealous or trying to figure out what it meant if Logan's dating someone and all of that.

F: Okay. and what did they say?

M: They were quiet for a while. And I remember my stepmom was just like, well, we just don't operate that way at all. And I was just like, that is not anything that I expect or I don't even expect you to really understand. I justnna share this piece of me because I feel like I've been hiding, and that's not necessarily what I want to do anymore. I want to be able to be honest and authentic with who I am and not feel bad about it and that it is something that I need to hide. The conversation went fine, and towards the end, my dad was just like, I don't think it's going to work out with you and Logan. You know, you do what you guys want to do, but I don't agree with this lifestyle, and I don't think it's going to work out. I think it's going to make things a lot more complicated. Which he's not wrong. You know, I don't think that that's why Logan and I broke up, but at the same time, I understand where he's coming from when he said that and we talked about how my dad felt that it had been four years and I never shared this with him. And especially because I told my mom forever ago, like, pretty much at the beginning. And I've always been closer with my mom, so that was expected. But at the same time, I think that he felt hurt that I didn't feel comfortable sharing that with him upf front.

F: and why didn't you?

M: I think there was a few reasons. One was fear you that I wouldn't be accepted. But I think the main reason was I knew that I was exploring and I didn't know if it was something that was going to really become part of me, you know, it was something that. And I didn't feel it was necessary to share it unless I knew for sure. And meeting James put that in a much higher priority to now let it be known. It's interesting now because, since Logan and I broke up, my dad was just kind of like, well, we probably could have done without that information. I just saw him this past weekend and I was like, well, you know, you wanted to know upfnt and that was when I had no idea. And you saying that I didn't need to know this is kind of contradicting you wanting to know what's going on in my lifee.

F: Oh, why can't you not tell me? And then why did you tell me?

M: Exactly. And I did tell him that, yes, James and I are exploring a monogamous or monogamish relationship right now, but that doesn't mean that that's not part of me. And something that I still experience and something that I'm in a community of. He doesn't know I have a podcast or that I take part of a podcast. But, again, I'm glad that I'm sharing. I know that it can, to some people seem selfish in a way because it can cause a lot of conflict in other people who don't believe in it and can cause them to question a lot of things. But I think it's important to be,

F: So you still feel like it was a good call to do it?

M: Yeah, absolutely.

F: That's great. Well, before you tell us how you met James, why don't you tell us how your relationship was before you met James because even though obviously your relationship with James had some sort of influence in your breakup, your relationship with Logan, even before you met James wasn't really in the best of places.

M: Yeah, yeah, I think that honestly, it was a long time coming. You know, I think that we both had needs that we were not fulfilling for each other. And it kind of started off maybe two years ago or so, where we were just losing sight of communication. And we had already been together for two years, two and a half years, and things were getting stagnant, as long term relationships normally do. You. We were not really having sex very often. I'm a very sexual person, and Logan is not necessarily. I think that he can be, especially towards the beginning of a relationship, but as things get comfortable, it was not something that either of us were really focused on. And I really related to what Tarynn was talking about in her marriage and that being partially laziness and also just being really busy. I keep myself so busy. So I wasn't putting forth the effort, and he wasn't putting forth the effort.

F: Tarynn Um is episode eight.

M: Yes, very good one. And yeah, so I think that that caused a lot of distance between us and I, did voice what I needed a lot, you know, And I think that I don't know if I could find a way to do it in a loving way because it ended up making him feel not enough.

F: Right. And what was it that you needed?

M: I just needed more affection, attention from him. Loving attention.

F: You know, not just sexual, but.

M: No, and more physical as well. You know, we developed kind of a routine and a lot of it wasn't what I wanted. It wasn't explorative anymore. It was just a routine, you know. And I think a lot of people can relate to that in a long term relationship. So I think that was one of the mistakes as well. I had polyamory or non-monogamy at the time to fulfill that part of me in a way. And instead of actually focusing in on, okay, this is something we need to work on and then explore that with other people when we're ready to Again. I don't necessarily think it was bad or wrong. I think I was just trying to figure things out. And I was also really trying to accept Logan for who he was and our relationship for what it was. And I know that there are platonic relationships out there that people are partners, life partners, and it's just platonic. But I don't think that that's what either of us necessarily wanted. It was just something we were falling into.

F: Yeah. But besides the physical or sexual aspect or the attention, I think there were also other aspects. Right. Because I also wanted to give like a true picture and not make it seem. Sex with James was great. And that's why.

M: Absolutely. There was a lot of things that I realized from dating James I really wanted out of a primary relationship. So not only the sexual connection, cause again that can die over time with anyone, but also being able to collaborate in a big way of creating a potential future together or just even creating in the present, you know, really working on projects together. And it's something I did see at first with Logan cause we got a guitar together and I was learning to play guitar and he was a singerash guitaray player and all of that. But I found that over time trying to collaborate together was just not something that was easily able to happen. And with James it's just so natural. It's not feeling like I'm pushing it on someone. It's true collaboration of like, no, I want to work on things with you and I want to dream up a future and what that looks like and move in a direction. Logan and I were very much chill where it was just kind of like, oh yeah, we'll get to it when we get to it, or, you know, maybe we'll have kids someday or maybe we'll get married someday. But it was never something we were ever really planning for or visualizing. And I think that that's really important for a relationship.

F: Yeah, for a long term relationship.

M: Yeah, absolutely.

F: Yeah, I agree. So tell us, how did you meet James? How was the beginning of your relationship with him? And how did Logan take it?

M: Yeah, so we met in August last year and it was so like a.

F: Month after we recorded the first episode.

M: Of the podcast, my whole world changed. And it was right after quarantine where Logan and I were like stuck inside for like 67 days or something crazy like that because we didn't have a yard, we couldn't go outside. We were just really stuck. And I had just started a new job where I was working 15 hour days. So I think both of us were just like craving human connection in any way. And a friend of ours had a birthday party in the picnic in the park and he was there, but then we all ended up going to our friend's home and most of them were close friends of mine. But yeah, James was there. I didn't know him. And it was funny because we were, kind of talking and being cute and everything, but, you know, it's very hard to catch my attention in a way that is strong. And I remember he was just like, oh, yeah, I'm a freestyle rapper and all this stuff. And I was like, okay, well m. Prove it. And he had no problem. He just like got on his phone, put down a beat and started rapping for the whole group. And oh my God, we should include.

F: A clip of him rapping for the podcast.

Speaker C: Twin Flames. Two halves just of the same soul. We might be slut, but at least we just ethical. She said she has the capacity to love more people than me. I don't know what to think or even just what to believe. I was programmed differently, which makes it really hard to see. There's a big difference between what you want and just what you need, what you can handle, and really was just straight past your speed. She just loves me for who I am. She's as perfectly anderfect to me.

M: He is brilliant like. And my jaw dropped when I heard him. And he even said he was like, you did not look at me the same for the rest of the night. And it's true, sparked something talent to me is just like.

F: And, Logan was there that night.

M: And Logan was there. Yeah. And, I think that James was a little confused because Logan and I aren't very lovey dovey when we're in a group setting because we kind of go off in our different directions. We have our conversations, which I think is great. But he was like, not sure that we were together, but kind of thought we were, but didn't like press it. We didn't talk about it that night. I ended up like, towards the end of the night, I kind of went up to him. He was like, laying on the floor on this like, plush rug. And I was like, is it okay if I come cuddle with you? And he was just like, yeah, of course. And we did. And from there on it was kind of like we were inseparable that night. And I told him, I was like, well, you know, I could come home with you if you want. Cause I had gone and talked to Logan and was like, hey, so I'm really kind of into this guy and would it be okay if I went home with him tonight? And he was like, yeah, enjoy.

F: Yeah, that's another thing that I want to talk about because from what I. I know, ah, Logan is a very. I don't know if he's not jealous or if he's just very willing to give you almost blanket freedom. Almost from the very beginning, which actually never seen in another relationship like that.

M: Yeah, he's a very special human in that way. And he has told me that he does get jealous. Cause I had to ask him because he doesn't show it at all. And he was like, yeah, I do get jealous. But I just kind of check in with myself of why I feel jealous and recognize it as something that I'm dealing with. And then it goes away.

F: Yeah. And I think that that's something that I really appreciate about, Logan. That he probably also just wanted you to be yourself, you know, like, if he felt jealous, I feel like he's not the type to be like, oh, you can't do this because of my feelings or whatever.

M: Yeah. But I think it also came with a lot of baby steps. I mean, this is after four years of being together and being open from the beginning. And like I talked about in the first episode, that first six months that we knew each other, it was, I'm going to be dating other people. I think you're really great and I would like to continue talking to you.

F: So from the beginning, he was used to that as well.

M: Yeah, yeah. And then when we became exclusive or not exclusive, when we became an item, however you want to put it, when.

F: We became together, an item, not partners, a product.

M: Yeah, exactly. yeah, that's a good way to put it. When we became partners, it was just like, well, we've already kind of been open, so why don't we just keep it that way? But it did come to a point that we were like, no. What? We're exploring this, which is great, but we're also in our honeymoon phase and we're just like, why don't we just spend more time with that and not worry about anybody else until we're ready? So we ended up closing up, from there. When we decided to open up again, it was again, very baby steps of trying to say, is this okay? Is that okay? And it got to the point where every kiss that we had with someone else, we had to check in with each other. And he wasn't necessarily comfortable with that. Cause it's very much in the moment and to break away also.

F: He was the one who wasn't comfortable with that.

M: Yeah. Like, he wanted the freedom to be able to just go with the flow.

F: Yeah. And you wanted him to check. You wanted him to check every time.

M: Okay, yeah, yeah. And I would check in with him every time too. I wanted that same type of consideration. And we didn't see eye to eye necessarily at the beginning, but it was something that we grew into together and he did agree to do that. And I think it's important when you put these types of boundaries in place that, it's not necessarily going to feel comfortable for each person. Everyone handles everything differently and that is a opportunity for you as a person to grow. So what he wasn't realizing is, well'I want to go with the flow. I want to do this and not have to think about her and have to break away and break that moment. But what he found is in practicing that, that it's not breaking the moment, it's just like asking consent. Right. It's not breaking the moment to ask.

F: Yeah, you. You can recreate the moment.

M: Yes, exactly. And he found that too. So.

F: And is that a boundary that you kept all through? No, it was just at the beginning.

M: Yeah.

F: So by the time you met James, you did not have a boundary way before that.

M: Ok. Yeah. So we both were very comfortable that if we wanted to make out with someone at a party, we did not have to check in with each other. And that was probably the only thing that we didn't have to check in about. If it wanted to, like, go further, that's when we needed to talk about it or, like, check in. And when I was approaching things with James. I already had a primary partner that I had already gone through all these baby steps with. So I kind of forgot how that process is and how long that actually took. And I was kind of just throwing James into a place of like, hey, I'm doing this thing.

F: Yeah. And that's, actually a really interesting thing that we should definitely talk about because you, in a way, and I think not only you, I think everyone assumed that because James was your secondary, he would receive the same treatment as your primary in the sense that you didn't have to check with. If you don't have to check with your primary to do things, why would you have to check with your secondary? But before we get into that, tell us how their relationship with James evolved from that night when you met him, to something more serious and how that affected or not your relationship with Logan.

M: Yeah. So end of the night, I was like, so it's okay if I come home with you, by the way. And he was like, oh, really? And we thought about it, but it actually didn't happen. And we ended up not seeing each other for another, like, two weeks after that. And I was in a place of, you know, not thinking it was going to be anything, but I did know that I really liked him. So I was.

F: I mean, from my perspective, I do remember you telling me, you know, and you had told me before, like, oh, I met this guy. But, like, I did feel like when you told me about him, it was different from the very beginning.

M: It was definitely different. Actually, we did see each other again before the two week, kind of, like, break, in a way. He had invited all of our friends to a bridge party the weekend after he was DJing, and he was the one kind of organizing it. I remember going into that party being like, Man, I really do like this guy. Like, I'm curious if he feels this same way. Like, I wonder if he feels the same connection that we felt. I remember walking into it and he just, like, dropped everything and, like, beel l to me when I got there and just, like, gave me the sexiest kiss right in the middle of the bridge. And it was just like, I knew then that our connection was really real, you know, and that it was something really special that I haven't necessarily experienced before. So, yeah, we had a really great night. We ended up going back to his garden. You were with me and just kind of hung out. I didn't stay that night either. I ended up going home. so it was a lot of, like, tension built up in a way, you know, our paths just weren't crossing. But I remember him asking me at the very beginning that since I do have a primary partner, that I would need to be the one that kind of let him know that I wanted to see him. And he didn't necessarily want to, like, chase me. He wanted to know that this is something that I wanted, and I reacted really well to that. I think that from the beginning, our communication was really good in that way of letting each other know exactly where we were at. I have no problem sharing how I feel.

F: Yeah. Yeah. I'm the same.

M: Yeah. And it's just like, you know, I told him very early that, you know, I really like you a lot. I think you're something really special. And I do want to explore this, and not that it has to look any certain way, but I do want to see where this leads. We escalated very quickly. We fell for each other very, very quickly. I remember it was a Halloween getaway that you were also at. You've been through it all with me.

F: Yeah. Why am I asking?

M: I don't know. Yeah. And we went to this Halloween getaway, and this was, like, the first getaway we went together. He was kind of introducing me to a group that he felt very close with. And I didn't know most of the people there other than you and him, and that is never a problem with me. I was, like, in a dance video during the weekend.

F: Yeah, we recorded a whole dance video that weekend. We had a haunted house. It was a great weekend.

M: It was so wonderful, and we really, really felt hard for each other. And I think that it just felt so real and new and like we were exploring just dating each other. Even though I had a primary, it was almost something that felt, like, didn't exist when we were together because it was just something that was so strong and so.

F: And also because Logan was so accepting of it. So there was never, oh, no, I cannot see you, because Logan is not okay with it. So. Yeah, I think that's one of the reasons why whenever you guys had that realization that, oh, wait a second, but she does have a boyfriend, it was hard to process because there was never a boundary because it always. There was never restrictions in your relationship with him. Yeah.

M: And we always have had conversations in the past of, like, what would it look like if I did fall for someone else? Would that be okay with Logan? With Logan, yeah. you. How would we approach that? And I think that this is where we lacked in communication. A lot of the times. It was we'll figure it out when we get there. Which is something that's really special in a way, because in a way, you kind of feel like, okay, we're always going to figure it out. But I think it kind of disguised the fact that we weren't actually communicating with this might make me feel this way, or I might not be okay with this. It was just kind of like an open faucet that ended up being too much, and we didn't realize that until it was too late.

F: Right. And did you ever communicate to Logan your feelings for James? Did you ever tell Logan, as you were going through this process, that you were falling in love with James?

M: Yeah, absolutely. So after that Halloween weekend, I think I was feeling it beforehand and probably already communicated it.

F: and how did Logan react?

M: He was like, oh, that's so nice.

F: That's the part that I just find incredible.

M: Yeah, no, and it was. He definitely has a lot of compersion, you know, and it wasn't something that he always had. so, yeah, when I told him, he was like, oh, that's so nice. And you. I'm really happy for you. And that was it, you know? I don't know that there was a lot behind it that made him feel insecure or jealous because we didn't really talk about those kind of things because he did seem so accepting, but I don't know that that was always the case or if he was dealing with things that he just wasn't sharing.

F: Yeah, yeah, because I think that's also one of the conflicts that you had that you weren't always sure how open he was being with you. Maybe we should ask him. We should bring him down from upstairs and ask him.

M: Yeah, well, and that's another interesting point. not to sidetrack this conversation, but we still live together, and we've been broken up for a month and a half now. it was a week of it being really, really hard and really sad and really confusing, and James was trying to be really supportive, and we didn't see each other that whole week because we thought it was important that I sit with my feelings.

F: The week that you were breaking up with Logan, which was a lot later than that Halloween weekend. That was like months. Months and later.

M: so, yeah, it was really hard. But then after that week, things kind of went back to normal where we were just friends again, which kind of just validated why we kind of broke up in the first place.

F: But how did things evolve from that? what were some of the other challenges that you and James had and also Logan.

M: Yeah. So main challenges were just balancing the relationships, you know, and trying to make time for both. And I was actually doing a really bad job of it, honestly, because I had found something that I really, really wanted to pour my whole self into. And since Logan was so accepting, it kind of felt to me that he didn't even necessarily care in a way, which made me feel like, I don't know, like, why aren't you getting jealous even a little bit? You. And it didn't necessarily make me feel secure, and I voiced that and everything, but it was just something like, I'm just okay with it, you know? So as things developed, I think that I was trying to, create some sort of relationship anarchy rather than having a primary and a secondary. I didn't want James to feel like a secondary. he didn't feel like a secondary to me. He felt like a primary. And I remember we had a conversation about how that didn't necessarily make sense because, like, the word primary is one, like, and so it really is you. I wanted them both to be my life partners, and that was kind of what we distinguished from that.

F: Yeah. Because I remember you talking about how you even would have liked to, at some point, live with both of them. Like, the three of you living together or something like that, and both being your primaries. And I remember being like, love. I'm not so sure that works that way either, you know, So I think that. And, I mean, I understand the position you were in because you had a primary that you loved, but also you had someone who felt like a primary to you, and you were just, like, trying to find solutions, you know, and you're an ambitious person. So.

M: I'm very ambitious. I have ambitious dreams. And, yeah, that was something that I always kind of wanted and thought that that could be a possibility and was just trying to work towards, not necessarily that being the possibility, but would it look like if I was in something that was more of relationship anarchy? And, you know, I saw myself having kids with James and getting married and all that kind of stuff. That, again, with Logan, it was very like, maybe we will one day. And the feeling I felt with James was so strong of, like, this is something that I really want and really want to explore. And I talked to Logan about that, and again, it was more like, okay, well, we'll get there when we get there. You know, so it wasn't a no.

F: And what did James say? Because I think you also talked about that with him.

M: I mean, he saw that potential as well. But he always kind of said that, you know, I just don't see having a primary partner that has another primary or has another life partner. And again, that was him being more of a monogamous standpoint. And he really did try, though. Like, he put himself through a lot to be with me.

F: Right. Because this is not something that he chose either. You know, like, he found you, you were in a relationship, but that doesn't mean that he signed up for being with someone with a primary. He just liked you and. Or loved you. And as much as you couldn't contain those feelings, he couldn't either, you know? But. Yeah, maybe tell us how then you made the decision to, in a way, close off your relationship with James, even though you still had Logan, but you guys decided to be monogamous, right?

M: Yeah.

F: I mean, within your relationship. I mean, you were still non-monogamous because you were with Logan, but neither of you, James, or you could have new partners.

M: Yeah. It was a very confusing thing to navigate because basically we had agreed that I was not going to date anyone else unless potentially it was a woman. But even then it was something that we were like, let's just focus on us and like, get us in a good place before we start focusing on other things. But at the same time, since he didn't have a primary, he thought it was very important that he should be able to date, because who knows if we could ever be primaries. Because I had Logan and I had a really hard time with that because I wanted James to myself or not to myself, but I wanted to be that with him. So it was very, very confusing for both of us for a long time. And it got to a place where it was really not healthy, honestly, for either of us, you know, but we still just loved each other so much and couldn't stop, you know, and kind of fast forward through a lot of heartbreak and a lot of you trying to make things work when they necessarily weren't. You know, we were going on a lot of trips together, we were traveling together, and all of these trips were always so magical and so perfect. And when we're together, it's never a problem. It's when we're apart and everything else kind of starts falling into place that we start thinking about it. But I came back from Puerto Rico with him, and I had been gone for like a month or so. I was already getting ready to go to the next trip to Colorado, and I had a week in between. And me being the person that I am, I had booked almost Every night with a project or seeing a friend that I hadn't seen in a long time. And I didn't necessarily make enough space for Logan because, again, I didn't feel like he necessarily needed it or wanted it. So I came back from Puerto Rico and he's like, I haven't seen you and you're going again, and. Which we agreed on, but you also haven't made any time for me in this time that you're here. And I recognized it right away as something that wasn't right. I did ask him that. I needed him to show me that he wanted it more as well, because I wanted to feel wanted from him for years. So it was just. It got to a point where he did finally voice his needs, but it was too late. Because when I had done that week, know, there was no going back. We had planned to spend time together, but it didn't work out. And then when I got back from Colorado, I did start making adjustments and making more time for him, but again, it was just too late. It just got to the point where we got in a fight one day after he went on a date, and it was kind of the last straw, and he was just like, you know, I can't do this anymore. I'm getting less and less of you, and it's not fair to me. And I agree.

F: Yeah. I mean, at that point, you were also thinking that.

M: Yeah. Yeah. And it was. And that's why it ended up being a very mutual thing. He did technically break up with me, but, yeah. It was something that I know we both had felt for a very long time. And again, I think that I was trying to just accept it, our relationship for what it was, rather than actually see, like, this is not okay for me for a primary relationship. But once that week of hardship passed and we went back to normal, it just really showed that it wasn't necessarily right.

F: Yeah. Like, after the breakup, it was the same as before the breakup. There was no change. You guys were already friends. You. It just kind of happened naturally in a way.

M: Yeah. I mean, and even not the. For the first week, we were not sharing a bed, but then we kind of just fell into the comforts of, like, okay, well, we don't have another bed, so we're just going to share the same bed again and not cuddle or anything. But we were just occupying the space pretty much as we had before. And a friend of mine who is monogamous was like, that's a little weird. And I'm like, yeah, you're probably Right. And I went to Loguean. I'm like, this is weird, right? And he's like, yeah, it's weird. So we were just like, okay, I'll stay downstairs. Now, the more people heard about it and the more it became solidified, people were kind of like, actually, I saw this coming for a long time. I think a lot of people saw it coming for a long time. And even now when I tell people about it, they're like, yeah, I'm not surprised. But I think what they are surprised with is the fact that we are still very friendly and it's not causing a huge disruption in our world. And I think a lot of that also comes with the fact that I do have relationship with James and that he now has become my primary partner. And we're exploring that together.

F: Yeah. And just to clarify, the reason why you are still living with Logan is because you have a lease that's coming up in a few months and it just doesn't make sense to break that, for the time being.

M: Yeah. And we've been living together for three plus years and we have so much together. You. And this space is very shared and it's going to take a lot to kind of unmerge in a way. But we both know that it's September is when it's coming up, that we gotta figure out what the next moves are. And we're starting that conversation now, and we will figure it out, you know. Yeah, I'm excited for the next move. Really?

F: Ah, yeah, yeah, I think it'll be great. and how did James respond to the breakup?

M: He had a really, really hard time with it because I think he was just finally getting into a place that he was being really supportive of.

F: He was comfortable with your relationship with. Supportive of you having another primaryeah. And also. And maybe we should touch on this, how James and Logan interacted.

M: Yeah. At first, I think everything changed when we fell in love because at first James was just like, oh, yeah, we're having a gentleman's night. Like, I'm gonna go just because Logan's there and I want to get to know him and all this stuff. And we just weren't that serious then. So I think he was really exploring it to every possible way you can. You. But as we fell in love, it got more and more uncomfortable seeing Logan and being together. And I had to voice at some point that I found it important that they coexist and that we can all hang out. because I was feeling very torn between my life with Logan and all of our friends, our circle here and m now, my relationship with James and all of his friends and everything I was experiencing with them, it just felt like very two different lives that I was pursuing. And that was very uncomfortable and hard. But it was getting better, too. Towards the end there, you know, he was really pushing himself to be around.

F: Him, and James was pushing himself to be around Logan. Yeah. Yeah.

M: And Logan had never had a problem with it, obviously, but, yeah, he had to kind of push himself a lot to do that. But it was getting better. And like I said, towards the end, he was starting to really kind of accept it and was a big person to be like, okay, well, I know that you haven't been spending a lot of time with Logan and you need to make more time for him and trying to help our relationship in a lot of ways. But again, by that time, it was too late for Logan. You. So no matter what I did, it didn't really matter. And no matter what James did, it didn't really matter at that time. And so when the breakup actually happened, he felt a lot of guilt around it as well, like feeling like he had ruined our relationship in a way. And I had to let him know that this was long before we met. It wasn't because we're poly It wasn't because we're open. It wasn't because I met James. It wasn't because we fell in love. It was because I wasn't getting what I needed and Logan wasn't getting what he needed, and we just were not compatible anymore.

F: Ye.

M: But it was hard to really. For James to really feel that for a long time. And he eventually came to and realized that and has dropped a lot of that feeling of guilt. And now we've gotten to a place where we are really just focusing on us and kind of starting a fresh slate in a way, which is really, really exciting. And I just feel good because I've never really had to, and this is a fault of mine. I never really wanted to or felt the need to compromise for anyone. Just the way the amount that I'm willing to compromise to be with James. And I think that that shows a lot of growth in me as a person in general, but also really shows that it's something that I really, really want and something that I'm willing to create something new with.

F: Yeah. And what are those things that you feel like you are compromising?

M: Compromising is such a difficult word because it sounds like you're giving something up even though you don't want to And I guess that is what it is in a way, but I don't necessarily feel that way. But it's really, you know, being able to pursue polyamory with another man, you know, that's something that is not a possibility in our relationship. And I'm, 100% okay with that. And not something that I feel like I need. You know, even being polyamorous with a woman, you know, that's something that we're open to, and it could be a possibility, but it is not something that I expect or, you know, am, even wanting to pursue right now. And I think that I'm a little burned from poly right now, too. Kind of similar to how Mr. K was going through in episode 10. You know, I very much feel aligned with that and sometimes just feel like it's not worth the complications.

F: Yeah, yeah, I agree with that. I mean, yeah, I think that it works for some people, but, like, full on, polyamory like, kind of what you had in mind, like, having two people that are as significant, like, I feel like that's very, very complicated. For sure. Yeah.

M: And some people do it, and it's great. but again, for everyone being on the same page and allowing for that is very, very difficult. I mean, I experienced it very much in this relationship and trying to balance the two.

F: Yeah. I think that, one of the reasons why, in your case, though, it didn't really work is because of the lack of boundaries, just so people are not disappointed if they want to try it out. I think that there's many ways of being open. Right. This is like one story of someone who tried polyamory full on polyamory But there's so many ways to be open that are a lot more controlled and with a lot more boundaries. And I think you really just jumped into the pool writing, and it's great, and you experienced it and you learned from it. But I think that maybe yours is like a tale of caution as well.

M: Yeah, well, I felt single for two years, really, you know, I could just do really whatever it is I wanted, which was great. And I honestly, I appreciate that freedom that I was given so much, because I think that being able to, explore myself in that way for that period of time not only allowed me to explore what I wanted in a primary partner and in relationships in general, but also allowed me to explore who I was outside of relationships. And you? I kind of had to, because I had so much energy. I had to dive into projects and creativity that I never really gave that kind of time for before. And I think that that was really.

F: Really beautiful because in your previous relationships, you felt like you didn't have the space even to be creative because you were too controlled or too tied up. Ye very.

M: I was in a series of very controlling relationships before Logan. And that, I think, made me want to explore a, completely different relationship style, because that wasn't working for me. And I can fall into that very easily, too. So I think that this lifestyle has shown me really what it is that I want and that I can't have that type of relationship because I have so much to give in creative ways. And even with my friends, I love my friends so much. And I think that's a beautiful thing that came from this community, is that even if it's not sexual, you have the capacity to love multiple people at the same time. And it is platonic. But the way that you can love people is very different than when you are in a strictly monogamous relationship and you can't even feel, like you can be friends with the opposite sex.

F: Yeah. Yeah. And it's not black and white, but definitely there's a lot of positive things that come with that exploration. And I'm so happy you had that experience. So I wanted to ask you about the transition from being in a, relationship in which you were basically single and also polyamorous to now being in a relationship in which you are monogamous. I know that we've talked about how you've had trouble adjusting to kind of acting in a way that you are in a relationship. So can you share some of that experience?

M: Yeah, I mean, it is very difficult. because, yeah, actually, James put it in a really good way of, like, we were both single in a way ca. Because we both had all the freedoms, and now we're getting into a exclusive relationship and trying to build what that looks like. but me, I feel like it's a lot more difficult because it's not as black and white of, okay, now I'm in a relationship, so now I'm going to act a certain way. I've been in a relationship and still free to do whatever I want. So now I'm trying to scale back and understand what is appropriate in this new dynamic and what is not. And I've made mistakes, you know, and have definitely seen, on the back of it or like, kind of in hindsight, how harmful it actually was when in reality I was just kind of innocent in the exploration of it. Things are just seen a lot differently when you are in a Monogamous relationship.

F: I think it's an adjustment from both parts. Like, he's adjusting to your freedom and you are adjusting to having a little bit less. To compromising. You are adjusting to compromising. Exactly. Yeah, I guess it is. To having a little bit less freedom. But because you are choosing to have other things instead and you are choosing to have stability in your relationship and that adjustment. yeah, it's definitely been a process. But I think that, you guys have come a long way and I think that you guys are in a much better place figuring out what your new relationship looks like now that you don't have a primary and now that you've gone through all these months kind of testing boundaries.

M: Yeah. And I think James really realizes that I'm always coming from a good place. I'm never intentionally trying to hurt him, harm him, or, you know, put him in a place that he would be uncomfortable. He knows that I love him. He knows that I'm just being myself. And with that it allows us to approach all of these situations as they come up as. Yeah, maybe it really hurts and maybe the initial blow is very hard, but he knows deep down that I am only doing it from a place of good.

F: Yeah. Of being yourself.

M: Yeah.

F: Yeah. So where do you see either with James or on your own, do you see yourself as moving towards non-monogamy ever again or. No.

M: Yeah, I think that non-monogamy is definitely something that we're looking at in our future. I think he's more in wanting to explore more now than I am because I do feel a little burned, so. But yeah, I don't think that I've necessarily closed that door fully, even though I'm okay if it has been closed, you know.

F: Yeah, you'just taking it day by day.

M: Exactly.

F: Exactly. So with all of that journey that you've been through, what would you tell to, a polycuresious person?

M: I probably would give more advice to myself when I wasn't necessarily happy in my previous relationship, that relationships take work and it takes a team to do it. And you have to approach things from the same side. And knowing that you want to be together and you need to figure it out together rather than putting it on one person to figure it out. I think that that is something that both Logan and I had a very difficult time doing is approaching things together. And another thing I would say is also really think about why am I pursuing polyamory or non-monogamy right now? Is it filling a void? Is that what I'm doing or is it something that is actually healthy? Because I think it's a very fluid thing where it can go up and down. It can be, very healthy sometimes and other times it could be from a place that isn't as healthy. So really trying to, when things aren't necessarily great in all areas, see what it is that you're gaining from both sides and why you're looking into that and seeing if that's more of a distraction than anything.

F: Yeah. And to kind of, add to that, you have to be very, very strong in your relationship, in your primary relationship. If that's the structure that you're choosing to explore in a healthy way.

M: Yeah, yeah, absolutely yeah. It can be done. I'm not a naysayer. I'm so glad that I explored it. I think it taught me so much about myself. But yeah, it'definitely complicated.

F: Yeah, yeah. I guess, like lastly we can. Oh, this is so sad. This is the last episode.

M: I can't believe it.

F: I know.

M: I think that this has been such a great experience. It's actually interesting because this has been a journey. This has been following our journey, both of us, and what we're exploring. And I think that it's kind of funny because in our community, as people have been listening in, kind of people come to me for advice or come to me like saying that this has helped them so much or have looked for wisdom in a way because we have created this platform. But in reality it's just exploring, you know, And I know that I don't have all the right answers and I know that I'm making a lot of mistakes and that's kind of what it's all about. But it's just interesting that people see it differently.

F: You know, I do think that it has break the stigma, at least in our community. I mean obviously you were like a lot more immersing like the poly comunity there was not really a stigma, but in communities that are polycurious. Precisely. which are a lot of people in the Burning Man community in Brooklyn. I've also gotten a lot of comments and it's actually made me think of the definition of polycurious because obviously I started because I'm polycurious and I feel like the way I'm approaching non-monogamy is caution and openness. Right. So it's really like an exploration. It's kind of trying it going in one direction, pulling back, going in a different direction. And I just hope that if they are polycurious people out there, which, I mean, if you came this far, I'm sure that you are one of them. That, you take that with you and you approach it with openness, honesty and curiosity and also caution. Because we're new to this as a society and, it's going to take us a while to form structures that are helpful. I hope this is a, resource at least. And I can't even describe how meaningful this experience has been for me. I feel like I'm at the Oscars. Thank you to my parents. Well, I do want to say, like, thank you to my sister who made the beautiful PolycuriousPodcast logo. To you, Mariah, who have been my wonderful co host and have helped me with social media, set. My partner has helped me with the audio and all the wonderful friends that came to the show and were open and vulnerable and shared their stories. We are still unsure whether we're gonna have a second season, unfortunately, because this has been my passion project and, it's taking a lot of weekends and evenings that now I want to spend with friends dancing. but I really hope everyone enjoyed it and learned from it and maybe, made their journey a little more easy and a little more fun.

M: Ye, ye. Yeah. I just want to say thank you because you really spearheaded this. I'm so grateful for that because I think that this really has provided a lot of insight for a lot of people. And I just appreciate the passion you put into it and, all of the time you put into it. I think it really does help a lot of people. I remember one of the things you said when we first started was, Even if just 10 people listen to it, I think it will be great and it will help. And that was what we thought coming into this. And now we have hundreds of people that are listening and I just think that's way bigger than we ever thought it wasnna be.

F: Yeah, definitely. I mean, I couldn't have done it without you. And it definitely took a while. We took a long break, which is why your episode was 10 months ago. But it's been wonderful and I couldn't have done it without you. I love you.

M: I love you so much.

F: Thank you, everyone. Well, that's it from us and from our first season. But before we go, I wanted to ask you a huge favor. So many of you have come up to me to tell me how meaningful the podcast has been to you, and I really appreciate and love when that happened. So please keep doing that. But also, if you could just take 1 minute to rate our podcast and maybe even leave us a review that would mean so much to us because it would help us to get the podcast to as many people as possible. As usual, our Instagram is @PolycuriousPodcast podcast and our email is polycuriouspodcast@gmail.com. Thank you all so much for coming along this journey with me. And that was our first season of Polycurious.