London: The primary reason for me taking a little hiatus from having a partner is that I want to take some time to make sure that I'm learning to give myself the validation that I need and the space to do that, and the time to do that, so that when I am ready to have a partner again, I can try to remind myself to continue to give myself that validation instead of always leaning on them for it.

Fernanda: Hi, everyone. Welcome to Polycurious. I am Fernanda, your host, and in this episode, Mariah and I chat with London, who has been exploring non-monogamy for about two years now. She describes herself as being solopolyamorous at the moment, and you might be wondering how being solopoly is different from just being single and dating several people. And the difference is that solopoly people are not choosing to create primary partnerships and don't approach their relationships in a traditional, hierarchical way.

In this conversation, we chat about London's relationship journey and her reasons for not seeking a primary partner. At the moment, we talk about how she's working on getting validation from herself. We also discuss the importance of communicating intentions and feelings from the beginning, even when one is casually dating. And last but not least, we go in depth about London's experience dating a couple and all of the reasons why being a unicorn was so special.

Before we go into this wonderful conversation, I also have an announcement to make. In the spirit of doing what's right for oneself, which is something we talk a lot about in this episode, I decided that I am going to make Polycurious a bimonthly podcast. So you'll be getting our episodes every couple of weeks. I enjoy this project so much, but things with my actual nine to five work are actually starting to ramp up. And if I want to dedicate Polycurious the time it deserves, and I want to continue doing this for longer, this is what I have to do. So now, more than ever, it's really important that you subscribe to our podcast so you don't miss any of our episodes. Okay, without further ado, let's get to today's episode. Here's our interview with London.

London, thank you so much for being here. This is one of the rare opportunities in which I get to interview someone I don't know. So I'm very excited because then I get to learn everything about you. Mariah brought you to the podcast.

L: Yes

F: I'm actually not sure how you guys met.

Mariah: Yeah. So just through our circle of friends, we met this year, and I know London as a huge creative in our community have always appreciated her work. And then I was lucky enough to meet her at a freak show party where she was dressed up like head to toe in full on makeup as a goddess clown with a big fro. And, yeah, we've just been learning about each other ever since.

L: Very cool. Yeah. Thank you for having me. First of all, I'm super excited to be here and to share my journey with you guys. And, yeah, I did meet you at freak show, and what a cool party and a very cool place to meet you. I'm happy to know you, and I'm so happy to get to know another female artist. Yeah, I met you because of my poly journey, actually.

M: Yeah. So for about a year, I was dating a couple, and I had met that couple over the pandemic and that they were the first polyamorous people that I had dated and sort of introduced me into ethical monogamy and brought me into their circle of friends. And that somehow trickled down into me meeting Mariah, which was amazing.

F: Great. And we'll definitely get into that. But before we do, can you tell us a little bit about yourself? Like, where are you from? What do you do? iI you feel comfortable sharing or just anything that can give some context to the listeners?

L: Absolutely. So I live in New York now for about eight years, but I'm originally from the South. I don't think a lot of people know this about me, but I grew up on a small farm in Virginia, farm girl. So I also went to high school and some college in Nashville, Tennessee. I was in Florida for, like, eight years before I came to New York. And I feel like being in the northeast, I finally feel like I found my true home, at least in the city. I don't know about all of the northeast, but in New York for sure. I am a hairdresser. I've been a hairdresser for 15 years, and for the last, actually, I guess, yeah, six years. I've been teaching other hairdressers as well, other licensed hairdressers who are already practicing to continue their craft and to become stronger at what they do. I also work in a photo studio with a really good friend of mine doing hair for creative photo shoots, which I absolutely love. And that's what I just do for money. But as hobbies and things that I adore doing out of the creative soul of my heart really is. I love costuming. I love getting into character. I love crafting weird, obscure, like, super campy costumes

M: Which is why we get along so well.

L: I love bright colors. Yeah, I'm a very creative person, and I'm super stoked to have met such creative people that I get to create with.

F: That's awesome. I mean, New York is kind of the place to be a creative person, so that's great that you found your way here. Well, tell us a little bit about maybe growing up in a farm and going from that to, you know, being open to different types of relationships. Did you ever think that growing up or when did you start learning about non-monogamy?

L: Well, so growing up on a farm, I will say even my farm life was very different from most of what you would think of when you think of a farm life. So we lived in a very conservative, rural area of Virginia, and my mom was a single mom with three kids, and she was, like, this insane, crazy, biker, like, Harley motorcycle riding woman who also was a single mom. And she was, like, a veterinarian technician during the day, but at night was a go go dancer in nightclubs when they were just, like, topless bikini bars or whatever before they got really intense. And she was also wiccan, so I grew up with a wiccan mom, and so my upbringing was very nontraditional, but also in a traditional sense, if that makes any kind of sense. We were already the black sheep of the community. A lot of my friends parents didn't really want me hanging out with them because my mom was, like, the s*** who lived down the street with kids with no fathers and wasn't Christian and didn't go to church. And there was rumors that she might take her clothes off at night for money. You know what I mean? And she always had these boys with motorcycles coming over to her house. So we were already very taboo where we were. So my upbringing was a little different. But I will say my mom was always a monogamous person.

And when me and my brothers were in high school, I had two older brothers They both ended up marrying their high school sweethearts, and I was the black sheep of the family. I think I knew from early on that I wanted to try to be this monogamous person because it was what I was taught I should be, right? It was what society tells you, it's what TV tells you, it's what tradition of our culture tells you, and so I tried. I tried really hard. But what I found in monogamy was that communication was very difficult. I didn't have an upbringing where I had a safe space to communicate honestly, and that trickled over into my love and relationships. And unfortunately, watching my mom and her relationships growing up, her relationships were very nontraditional as well. Not necessarily in the sense of monogamy, but there was sort of this rotating door of alcoholics and addicts coming in and out of our lives. And so the way I was taught to love was not normal, I think. Not having a safe space to communicate, also learning, probably a broken way to love. I don't know if that's the right way to say it, but it felt broken to me. The way I practiced monogamy, I don't think was right either. I'm not sure. I just had a misconception, maybe, of what it should have been. But what I did find when I eventually did discover polyamory and learning to honestly communicate was that it felt more honest to me. Because when I would be in monogamous relationships and I didn't know how to communicate, instead of actually talking to my partner or my boyfriend or whoever, that was about how I felt and working out issues, I would just hold it in and go out and cheat or go out and do things that I knew would make me feel better in the moment, like a bandaid. But really I was just sabotaging the relationship. So later, when I met monogamous or non-monogamous people that were ethical about it and who taught me the value of communication, and I learned that just when you don't feel good about something, talking about it makes it so much easier, so much faster. And honestly, it was communication that taught me compersion with partners as well, which was really great.

F: Yeah. For those who don't know what compersion is, it's basically feeling happy for your partner to be happy with someone else. Anyone has a better definition? I don't know if I described it well.

M: Yeah, I think that it's about being happy for someone else's happiness. And I don't think it necessarily has to be in a way of polyamory or anything. I think compersion is just that general feeling of happiness.

L: I think you're both right. The way I think of compersion is when you love someone so much that you are just happy to see them pleased or happy, and it doesn't matter if it comes from them being happy with somebody else in an emotional way or a sexual connection. It can be in the form of you f****** feeding them pizza. I don't know. And they're just, like, happy because of it. So there's compersion, but then there's a compersion kink. And so I think compersion kink falls into the category more of watching your partner with another. That's when it becomes more sexually related, if that makes sense.

M: Yeah.

L: Okay.

M: Absolutely.

L: I don't know if that works, but that's how I would define it.

M: I've experienced that before, so I definitely can.

L: Same.

F: Yeah, I think that's a very good definition. And also, I want to just say that as much as it's amazing to experience it, there's also no shame if you don't experience it or you don't experience it yet, for those listeners out there who might be like: "Oh, I hate it when my partner is with someone else", obviously, you should care about your partner's happiness, but sometimes, I guess it's hard to feel it, but I think there are ways that you can develop it. But before we jump into how you learned to develop compersion, who were the first non-monogamous people that you met? And how old were you at this time? And in what point of your relationship journey were you at?

L: So I think that's a great question, and I'm so glad that you asked that, because if you really think about what defines non-monogamist, right? I consider myself, before I moved to New York, when I lived in Florida, like, in my early 20s, being a non-monogamist. But I feel like that person then and the person I am now are two completely different people with two different sets of codes of ethics and just beliefs. And I feel like the person who I was in my 20s, I was a non-monogamist because I was afraid of vulnerability and I didn't want to get close to anyone, and so I didn't want to have serious relationships. The extent of my ethical practices with that would be to just say: "Hey, yeah, we're going to go home and we're going to hook up, and I'm doing this with other people, and I can't be your girlfriend". And that was it. I didn't discuss anything further. Right? But really, I was afraid of vulnerability. I didn't want to be close. I didn't want to let anybody in. I also feel like solo polyamory gets a bad rap because some people think that solo poly is what I just described. I don't think it is at all. I feel like that's a misconception. I feel like solo polyamory is still communicating. It's still being vulnerable. It's still being very open and honest and ethical, and you can still have very deep, meaningful connections with other humans that involve vulnerable emotions such as love. I just think that it's also putting yourself first and maybe doing a little bit of your own work on yourself in the meantime. And sometimes that means not having partners, not having expectations set on you by other people that are usually involved in a partnership. Right? And so you're still allowing yourself to experience these beautiful connections with humans just without the expectations.

M: So I'm curious of what your expectations are on yourself, too. So, say you meet someone that you really do find a really good connection with. You fall in love, and you have that type of attachment that comes with that feeling. Do you feel any expectation of what you need to be for them or how you need to show up for them in certain ways, whether it's emotionally or if they ever need anything?

L: So I understand what you're saying, and I think that's an important thing to look at and analyze for sure, because currently I have a friend who is a lover who I have a pretty big crush on and I have strong feelings for. And we are actually both on solo poly journeys right now. And I think that's sort of how we connect. I mean, we connect in many other ways, but that's definitely one level that we connect on. And we were at this festival recently, and we were already in a space of feeling all the happy feelings, and I found him and I said: "Hey, I feel like I want to tell you that I love you, but I don't want it to feel like this". I don't know. I didn't want it to feel like this binding thing. I was like, I want to just tell you that I have this love for you, but it's not like I'm in an in love with you kind of thing. I don't know. I didn't know how to voice it. I was afraid. I didn't want it to come off as, like, he thought maybe I was having feelings and that it was going to interfere with his solo poly journey, you know what I mean? Because that's not what it was for me. I was just very much feeling love in the moment and wanted to share that with him honestly. And he totally understood what I meant, and he checked in with me and he said: "Hey, I just want to make sure that you're protecting your heart". And we're also very into tarot cards. And this may sound silly to some listeners, but we had a moment on one of our first dates where we had this ritual for a full moon, and at the end of it, I read tarot cards, and the tarot cards told me to be careful of this person because he may break my heart if I let my heart give him my heart too much. Right? And I shared that with him. And so he was referencing that. So I know that may sound silly, but I grew up with tarot cards with my mom, with my wicked mom. I like it.

M: I get it.

L: Anyway. And I was like: "No, that's not at all what I mean. Thank you for checking in, but I am definitely protecting my heart". And that was the moment that I brought it up to him. I was like: "I know that you and I are both on our solo poly journeys. We're just making sure that we're staying there, but I don't think we can't have deep, meaningful connections with one another. I was like, I'm not expecting anything from you. I just wanted to tell you how I felt". And he thought that was really beautiful, and he thanked me for sharing.

F: Did he say I love you back or what was his response?

L: Well, you know, I never actually said the words I love you. I said: "I feel like I want to tell you I love you or that I feel like I have all this love for you". And his response was: "I just want to check in and make sure you're protecting your heart". And he never said that back, but he thought it was really beautiful that we were able to talk about that so openly and honestly. That's what he said. And it never bothered me that he didn't respond the same way. Because there's no expectation.

M: Right.

L: I don't have the expectation of receiving it back. I just wanted to share how I felt.

F: Right. Yeah. Also, because I know I love you is a very weighted word or words, but I feel like I could tell that to people I'm seeing, too, because even if I don't love them in the way I love my primary partner, but there's so much to love about them, right? And there's feelings involved. It's not just sex. It's like an appreciation for that person in a deeper level, which, if you think about it, it's kind of saying, I love you. I wish there was, like, in Spanish, there's two ways of saying I love you, "te quiero" and "te amo". And te quiero is, like, the softer way, and te amo is, like, the heavier way.

L: So "I love you" versus "I'm in love with you"?

F: It's more like: "I appreciate you, but I have feelings for you at the same time". That's kind of like "te quiero". "Te quiero" is more for a friend.

L: Okay.

F: And "I love you" is more for a partner. Yeah.

L: Got it.

F: So there's that distinction, right? There's other ways to express love. And of course, in English, you can also say: "I appreciate you so much". Or whatever. But it sounds like you could be saying that to your coworker.

L: Exactly.

M: I think it depends on the situation, too. From what I understand of what you just shared, it sounds like this was, like, a very intimate scenario. You guys were in person, and there is something to be said about the atmosphere that is created when you share something like that versus just telling a friend like: "I love you". I tell my friends all the time "I love you".

L: And I made sure to specifically kind of say, I want to say this without saying that I'm in love with you, because that wasn't what I was trying to communicate. I wanted him to know that I have this love for him, but for me, it didn't feel like falling in love. I do feel pretty deeply connected to him. I have emotions for him, but I wouldn't say that I'm in love with him. It's not like somebody I would want. I think eventually, when I get to a place of wanting a primary partner again, because I will, someone like him would be somebody I would want as, like, a primary partner, right? But I can't say that I would want it to be him because I would only want somebody to be my primary partner who's also ready to do that with me, if that makes sense.

F: Yeah. Because you briefly mentioned that you have things to work on, but we all have things to work on ourselves, right? So why is it that you are not looking for a primary partner?

L: Okay, that's a great question. Thank you. So if you don't mind, I would like to back up just a little bit, give you a little back history on that. So eight years ago, when I moved to New York, I moved here single and jumped right away into a heteronormative, monogamous relationship, which was not sort of my normal when I lived in Florida. I've always been queer. I maybe didn't always identify as queer. I think then it was bisexual. I didn't know what pansexual meant, but I definitely knew that my sexual interest went beyond just male female gender identities. I just didn't know what to call it then. I'm 36, so a lot of these terms are new.

F: Yeah. And that term is pansexual for those people who might not know.

L: Yes. So anyway, I moved to New York, jumped into this heteronormative relationship, and I was in it for five and a half years. Throughout that journey, my mom had gotten sick with cancer and passed away. And so I was going through a lot of different transformations. One of just moving to a big city by myself, without family. Two, dealing with my mom passing away, without my family here to help me. And because I jumped into that relationship so quickly, I never really developed strong friendships with anyone. I had a few acquaintances and maybe a few kind of friends that I knew but didn't really have a lot of common interests with, that I would hang out sometimes with. But mostly my life was work. My boyfriend and the gym. Gym didn't even come until after my mom passed away. Before that, it was like my roommates, basically. They were kind of like my "friends", right? So that was about my life for five and a half years. My mom passed away, and then I went through this whole grief process. I started seeing a therapist, which I think was so helpful for me in my journey, and ended up leaving that partner for five and a half years, only to quickly jump into yet another heteronormative, monogamous relationship, like, two months later. Well, and that's not like me either. I've never been, like, this serial monogamous person. So I think when my mom died, for some reason, there was a part of me that was like, I feel like I need to be this normal, conforming member of society. That's not weird. That isn't like myself, because I've always been different. I've always like the kid that was weird in school, I got picked on, and I was always just this weird little artist girl. And so I think there was part of me that for once in my life, I wanted to feel normal. And I think part of me was trying to make my mom proud. I was like, maybe I should be this person that my mom would like to see.

F: So did your mom ever push you to be "normal"?

L: That's the funny part. She always accepted me for who I was. She never tried to make me anything that I wasn't. I don't think I ever told her that I wasn't completely straight, but she guessed it. But she never made me feel like it was wrong. She always wanted me to be who I was. And if I told her that I wanted to do something with my life that was maybe different than what society would agree with, she would just let me know. She would be like: "Hey, I think it's great that you want to do this, but here are some things you should consider: You may get this reaction from other people; They might not find it so pleasing". For example, when I was paying my way through beauty school, my mom, like I said, she used to work in go go clubs. I decided I was going to be a stripper. I was a stripper to save money, to go to beauty school and also continue to pay my bills while I built a clientele at the age of 19 to 22. So I'm 36 now, so it's been a while. So she was like: "Listen, I support you if that's what you want to do. I don't think there's anything wrong with it. As you know. That's what I used to do". She was like: "The game is different now". She was like: "You have to do different things than I used to have to do". She's like: "Just know that there's, like, a taboo in society that's going to come attached to that. You're going to catch flak from some people, and I know you're very open about who you are, and maybe it's not going to be so well for you. It's not going to be so well received". But I've always been that person where I'm just like, I don't f****** care. I'm going to do me. So, yeah, no, my mom was always very supportive, so I don't know why I felt that way. I think because my mom was always sort of the party girl. I think she wanted me to be better than she was. I think that's what I kind of knew deep down, and that's what I was trying to do. I think there was part of me that was trying to prove to her that I could be better than the party girl and I could be better than the stripper, and I could be better than. I could do more with my life, probably because I had two older brothers that married their high school sweethearts and started having kids. Part of my brain computed that to traditional monogamy or that sort of lifestyle.

F: Yeah,

M: Yeah, I totally get that.

L: Yeah. So I tried it for a minute, and I would say, like, the last year and a half we were together, I also experienced some trauma in that relationship surrounding some abortions. But he was much older than I was, and there was a lot of him not wanting to wear protection. And me being... I didn't stand up for myself enough, I didn't advocate for myself enough, and I kind of just let things happen and shouldn't have and decided I was just going to be tough. And eventually realized that having things like a few abortions can actually take an emotional toll on your body. Whether you tell yourself it won't or not, it just does. So, anyway, long story short, we ended up finally splitting up, but our last year and a half together we didn't have sex at all. And it was just because I had experienced so much trauma between the abortions and my mom dying that my libido was completely gone. For, like, a year and a half, I just had no desire to have sex. And so, honestly, I'd been sort of emotionally disconnecting from him. That last year and a half, I met the next partner two months after I'd officially broken up. So I was with five and a half years with the first person and about on and off for a year and a half with the second person. And that was also heteronormative, monogamous. Unfortunately, it became a very toxic relationship. And then the pandemic happened. And so, like many people who weren't meant to work out over the pandemic, we split up. My roommate had moved to LA to quarantine with her fiance. I don't have family in New York. I couldn't fly anywhere. Right? Because you were terrified to go anywhere. And I didn't have friends because in the seven years that I, or I think that time, almost six and a half years that I lived here, I hadn't developed friendships with anyone. I had, like, maybe one or two people that I kind of knew, but I wasn't super close with because I worked all the time. I was working six to seven days a week, and I going to the gym. The closest thing I think I had to friends were my people at the gym that I would talk to. So I was alone for the first time. I started going in dating apps, where I ended up meeting the couple that I dated for a year. I met the guy first. We went on a date. He was like: "I want to introduce you to my partner. I don't usually do this, but I think you guys would get along really well". And I was like, he's like: "Would you want to do this date with both of us?" And I was like: "I haven't been with a woman in, like, nine years. Is she hot? Can I see a picture?"

F: Yeah. What had been your experience with women up to that point?

L: Honestly, my experience with women up to that point had always been just sexual encounters. In middle school, like, middle school, I had a girlfriend, and she was in 9th grade, and I was in 8th grade, and we had this mutual friend who lived close to her but was in class with me and would pass notes between us. And then I would go to her basketball games, and her parents would drive me back home, and we would hold hands in secret in the backseat. And it was like this cute little thing and then in high school, I had my first sexual experience with a woman who was, like, this girl who was one of my best friends. She was my closest friends. And we did the whole experimental thing. Right? And we had sex, and that was it for her. She just wanted to experiment, and I think she realized that she really wasn't into women.

F: So it was just once.

L: Yeah. But I ended up having feelings for her, and I ended up developing a crush on her and got my heart broken a little bit. So my experience as a woman was pretty limited. But also, I think because of that heartbreak, I was afraid to try more.

M: Yeah. And it sounds like it wasn't just sexual. It definitely had that romance aspect to it or you being vulnerable enough to fall for someone. And so that was the last time? Until...

L: No, because when I was a dancer, there was women I would meet that I would work with at the strip clubs, and every once in a while, I would flirt with them enough to, like, I would always have to be the aggressor. And I don't mind that sometimes. But I will say in recent times, since dating women, when they pursue me, it's f****** hot.

F: Yeah.

L: So, yeah, we went on this date anyway, met his partner, we hit it off, dated them for a year. So just recently, after New Year's, we split up. So basically, since I've lived in New York from eight years ago until now, I've been in some sort of relationship with somebody. Granted, a few months of being completely alone over the pandemic. Right? And so after having heard all of my backstory, so why don't I want to be in a primary relationship? So for the first time, I'm in a place where I'm single and I'm happy to be here. I think when you're in a monogamous relationship, and I had this very codependent relationship with this person because the one that was five and a half years we worked together. We were together every day. I didn't live with them, but we might as well f****** live together. It was a lot, and it was very codependent. And I think that I was afraid to know who I was without a partner. And I think for the first time, I'm in a place where I feel like I'm excited to get to know who I am again without a partner. But the things that I have to work on are: I've noticed this, not necessarily with a couple that I dated, but with other partners that I've had that have been more on the monogamous side or even I dated somebody recently, since becoming poly that I was hoping that would become a primary partner. That didn't. But when I get really excited about somebody, I feel like I just lean a little too hard on that person for validation. And I know that it's normal to lean on a partner for validation, but I felt like I leaned a little too hard. So the primary reason for me taking a little hiatus from having a partner is that I want to take some time to make sure that I'm learning to give myself the validation that I need and the space to do that, and the time to do that, so that when I am ready to have a partner again, I can try to remind myself to continue to give myself that validation instead of always leaning on them for it.

M: You said that you were kind of afraid of getting to know yourself and who that might be, what is that fear? Like, what are you afraid of exactly? Or who are you afraid of meeting in that way?

L: I'm not afraid anymore. I think in the moment, I had just gone through so many transitions with my mom passing away and went through this thing of trying to be this normal human, but I think I struggled with that because my idea of what I thought was normal just definitely wasn't me, and I didn't know who I was anymore. We were going through some pretty crazy times with the pandemic, but even then, even before the pandemic, even when I left the person at five and a half years, I don't know if I was ready to be alone. I'd had somebody for so long, I'd been through so many changes, and I was still in this new city, really, without anybody, and I was just like, who am I completely by myself? Can I handle that? What am I going to do with myself? Am I going to still be responsible? Am I still going to pay my bills? Am I still going to go to work? Am I going to end up getting addicted? Who am I going to be?

M: That I get for sure, that resonates with me so much. Not so much on the relationship side, but I've always worked really hard in a really strict type of industry, and I always told myself what would happen if I ever quit? Who would I turn into? And that was definitely a fear. So it's not necessarily related in the way that it is on relationships.

L: You were working that much. So I get it. I know exactly what you're saying, and I think it's totally applicable because I was just like, I didn't know who I was outside of work. I worked six and seven days a week, and I was somebody who lived to work. I loved my job, but part of that also came from after my mom passed away. I got really bad anxiety, like bad, like debilitating. And part of me fixing that was working out. Like, I didn't want to take medication, and so I was self managing by working out all the time. And so I became this person. And also, I threw myself into work before I found fitness, I threw myself into work, and I was entering hair competitions, and I was winning, and I was getting ahead at work. I was becoming amazing at work. So I just focused on this thing and just did it really well and focused all my anxious energy there, and it was great, and then had to supplement it with the working out because that still wasn't enough. And it was great, but I didn't know who I was outside of that.

F: And what were some of the signs that made you realize: "I'm getting too much of my validation from this person?" Because you said it's normal to some degree, but what were some of the red flags that were like: "okay, for me, it's a little bit too much".

L: And I think a lot of this also boils down to communication. It may not necessarily just be on me now that you're saying this, but, for example, the last person that I dated, where this was happening, where I felt like I was relying too heavy on the validation, I was dating this person, and I'm new to poly, I'm still pretty new to poly, but this person didn't know what their experience in poly consisted of and how different it was from even just a little bit of experience that I had was, if that makes sense. I think when I first got involved with polyamorous people, I assumed that all polyamorous people were like the partners that I had, like the couple, amazing communicators experienced with compersion, excited to hear about me and my other dates. I just assumed everybody was like that. Little did I know that this new person that I was dating really didn't have much experience. Like, he only really dated girls who were much younger than him, who had no experience in polyamory. And so he was sort of, like, shaping what that meant for them. Meanwhile, he didn't have enough experience with it, with other people who were experienced with it to know very much, if that makes sense.

F: Yeah, I feel like a lot of people have come up to me and be like: "I didn't really know non-monogamy in this way. What I knew from no-monogamy was what my often male older partner was. Telling me non-monogamy was, and I was just kind of like, going along with it".

L: Right.

F: And it's kind of a tricky line to walk, because as much as I have people who are doing their best on the podcast to do, like, non-monogamy, well, there's a lot of people out there who are not doing it right. And who's to say who's doing it right or not? Well, that's maybe subjective, but also, it's important for people to know that there are people out there who pretend to be super consensual and communicative, etcetera. But at the end of the day, they're just kind of taking advantage and not really being ethical, whatever that means.

M: It's a manipulation play at that point.

L: It is. And sometimes I don't even think those people realize that's what they're doing.

F: Yeah, they don't.

L: They don't have the experience to compare it to. And I don't think this person knew that's what he was doing, but that's exactly what he was doing. And so the last time I felt like this was with this person. I got very excited about this person. And again, back to sort of this esoteric kind of thing. I had spoken to a psychic, like, I don't know, a few months prior to meeting this person who said that I was going to meet somebody whose name started with the same letter that his name started with and ended with the same sound that his name ended in. And there was all these connections to be made that the psychic talked about that sounded too good to be true. So I assumed this was the person the psychic talked about. So my brain was already set that I'm going to marry this person and blah, blah. There was all these expectations already floating around in my head, which I wished were never there. I was kind of mad that they were there. And anyway, number one, I had way too many expectations floating around. Two, I assumed this person was going to be as ethical and communicative as I was trying to be. But I got very excited about them. They had another partner. They had a few other partners, but they had one other partner specifically that they were very much in love with, and never told me that they were very much in love with this person. And so what I didn't realize also at the time was this was not a person who was capable of being in love with more than one person at a time, because I feel like that's also a thing. In polyamory, some people call themselves poly, but don't realize that they don't possess the capacity to be in love with more than one person at a time. And I feel like that's where you go from being, like, a non-monogamist or somebody who's open versus polyamorous. Does that make sense?

M: Yeah.

L: And he's somebody who calls himself poly, but was very much in love with this person, and maybe he is capable of being in love with more than one person. Maybe I just wasn't that other person for him. That could also totally be the case. I also was at fault because I didn't ask him what his heart was available for. We dated, like, three months, and in that time of three months, I started to catch feelings. I started to get really excited about him. I had all these expectations in my head. And I had a friend of mine who's very long time poly, very long time queer. And I was chatting with her about him. She goes: "What's he looking for?" And I was like: "What do you mean?" She was like: "Well, does he want a relationship? What's his deal?" I was like: "I don't know". She's like: "You should ask him". I was like: "Is it too soon to ask him?" I was afraid to mess it up. And she was like: "Girl, no, ask him. How else are you going to know?" And I was like: "I don't know. I feel like, I don't know. I just don't want to ask him". I never did, and I should have, because she was right. She gave me the best advice. Later, I slowly found out that his heart wasn't available for anything past, like, not a deeper connection than what we already had, as I wanted more. And so my heart kind of got a little broken there. And I felt like I was leaning on him a little bit more than he was willing to let me lean or to reciprocate.

F: Yeah. So you felt like when that happened, you were again getting too much validation of yourself worth because you felt so bad when he wasn't available there for you.

L: Yeah. Like I wasn't enough. I needed that validation from him to feel good.

F: Yeah. It's interesting because I think that you're doing the right thing going on a solo journey, which you don't have an expectation to have a primary, but also, that's so normal, even for me. I have a primary. If I get rejected by someone, I feel so bad. I also feel like: "What? How can this person control my feelings so much?" And I was talking about it with my sister as well, who was a little heartbroken because this guy kind of ghosted her. He eventually came around and now she is ghosting him.

L & M: Good.

F: All good now. But we were talking about how silly it is that a guy that she wasn't even that into made her feel so s***** just because he ghosted her. And I feel like a lot of people, both men and women, probably experience.

L: That we expect validation from people and we shouldn't. We should expect it from ourselves first.

F: Yeah, but it's hard. It's easier said than done.

L: Definitely.

M: Well, I also think that in the event of ghosting, that's just not, in my opinion, like, a very respectful thing to do. There is always communication of saying, like: "Hey, I think we're in two different places here. I think you're really cool, or, I had a lot of fun with you, but yada yada".

F: Yeah, for sure. Obviously, if he had done that instead of ghosting, my sister wouldn't have felt so s***** about it. But there's also situations where people do it in that way. And also you feel really bad about it. I think it's great that you are working to get to a point in which you are better able to not take things personally, because at the end of the day. Is that right? I think it also helps to think of yourself and how there's been people who are great. They're attractive, they're smart, they're everything. But for some reason, they're just not your person and it has nothing to do with them. So I think it also helps to just put yourself on the other side and be like: "Okay, well, it's really not about me. There's nothing faulty with me". And that's not why this person doesn't have the same intentions. Another thing that I think it's a great tip is to ask intentions early on in their relationship, even if it's a casual thing.

L: And I'm so glad you said that, because even in my recent dates that I've had with people, I also tend to get excited about people very quickly. And so I also took a step back recently and evaluated that, why do I get excited about people so quickly? And I was like: "Oh, it's because the validation that they're giving me feels so good". I'm not used to it. Right. So that's what I'm attracted to. That's also where this whole I need to work on giving myself validation thing came from, because I felt like how quickly I get attached to people didn't seem healthy to me.

M: Is that what you feel like you are experiencing now with this person that you are seeing?

L: No, actually, I'm not. So there was somebody I kind of briefly saw for maybe a few months, I want to say, at the end of last year. So right before New Year's, I think around New Year's, we kind of stopped seeing each other. And I met that person literally, like, right after the other, that I ended things with the polyamorous person who I met that.

M: The non polypoly person.

L: The non polypoly person. We'll call him that. Yeah. And I had ended things with him because I had realized that he wasn't as excited as I was. And so that just felt s***** more than it felt good. And so, as much as I didn't want to, I broke up with him. But I was out at this place where he was, and it was my first time being around him, out in a setting where I was drinking and a little bit more inhibited and was struggling to be around him because he's also quite charming and super attractive. And that particular night, he's a performer. And so that particular night, he was performing, and so he's also already put on a pedestal. Right?

F: Quite literally.

L: Right. And I'm trying really hard to ignore that, but it's really hard. So, anyway, at the end of the night, this other person comes in right at the right moment and just feeds me all the validation that I wasn't getting from this person that I was hoping to get, even though I broke up with them. Like, the weird games we play in our heads.

F: Oh, so the person who was performing is the person that you had broken up?

L: Yes.

F: Okay, got it.

L: The non polypoly. This other person just kind of came at the right time. And so, yeah, I went home with them. We had a great night, and we had a great day the next day. And we actually very quickly and intensely spent time together. A lot, like, a lot of time, very quickly. But then I also learned that that person had just ended, like, a twelve year partnership with someone. So they were sort of also. Right. They were also sort of, like, in that headspace of being accustomed to having somebody with them all the time. So we both kind of just quickly got into this, like, let's be together all the time before we really got to know each other. Once I got to know him, once I took the time to really get to know that person, I realized that I was like, I don't actually like this person. What did I like? Why was I so intensely into him, and why did I want to spend all this time with him? And I was like: "It's because he was giving me this validation I wasn't getting from my last relationship". And I was like: "That's not cute".

F: And when you say that, you mean, like attention, right?

L: Yeah. It wasn't even just attention, but it was attention. But it was also like he would tell me: "Oh, you're really smart" or "You're super talented", or "You're really good in bed". It was actual just like, validations of things.

M: Well, it sounds like maybe one of your love languages and a strong love language is words of affirmation.

L: It is my top love language.

M: Yeah, me too. So I totally get that. So there is this understanding of that does affect you, and it's always going to because that is your love language. So you do need a partner if you ever have one or if you ever decide to have one that understands that and feeds you.

L: But first, I have to learn how to give myself positive self talk. I have to learn how to feed myself those words of affirmation because otherwise, it doesn't matter who I'm with, I'm always going to depend on their words of affirmation over mine.

F: Well, but it sounds like you're going in the right direction. Right? Because the person that we started talking about when you said: "I almost feel like, I want to tell you I love you" and he didn't necessarily say that back, even though you didn't say I love you, but you were fine with it, you know what I mean? So I think a lot of it has to do with intention setting from the beginning. And it's not like, necessarily like: "Oh, I'm not going to let myself feel these things". It's like: "Okay, well, I'm going to let myself feel, but I'm not going to let my sense of value come from my relationship with this other person". And I think it's great. You had it clear in your mind and then you moved into a direction in which it's kind of paying off because then you are not taking things personally and you are, like, learning to grow in your own self before.

L: Exactly.

F: Being with someone more seriously.

M: I think that that is something that a lot of people struggle with. I struggle with it. I definitely am one of those people that go from one relationship to another, and I dive pretty hard in, and I don't hate that about myself, but at the same time, it makes me feel like I have some work to do on expectations of what I expect for myself or my life. And there's a lot of fear around what does my life look like if I'm never with someone or things like that so? Especially with this person that you are seeing now, or as you go forth in your solo poly journey, how are you really training yourself to not set expectations or to not be hurt when your expectations aren't met?

L: So I think that's a really great question, and that is definitely a question that I was asking myself not that long ago. I was pretty worried. I didn't know. I didn't know what to expect, and I don't know what clicked. I don't know what happened. I wish I could put my finger on it. I think it was time. If you're someone who's always in a relationship and you happen to find yourself all of a sudden not in a relationship, and if you can find the strength within yourself to maybe not seek that out, not saying it's a weakness if you do, because there are some people that just, that's your journey and that's okay. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting a partner. We're humans, and I think it's biologically ingrained in us to always want connection. But if you ever find yourself in a place where you're like me and you decide that you want to take a solo journey, I guess what I would say is just, I want to say, you just have to take it one day at a time, right? Like anytime you go through any process of healing, because if you end a relationship, you're dealing with grief, and whenever you're dealing with grief, you have to heal, you're going to be angry, you're going to blame yourself. And I don't know about anybody else, but for me, whenever I go through grief, my first stages of grief are like, numbing. First I'm upset, but I want to numb it. I have these emotions that I don't want to deal with. And so maybe I want to go drink a lot, maybe I want to go do drugs a lot. Maybe I want to go f****** have all the sex with people. Maybe I want to do all those things at the same time. Whatever I can do to not think about it. But I think once you get through that phase, some time has passed. And once some time has passed, addressing what you actually need to address and how scary it may be or how painful it may be is a little easier because time has passed, right? And so I always talk to my therapist about this, too. Sit with it, really look at who you are and think about, is this who you want to be? And even if it's not who you want to be, you need to accept this is who you are and say: "Can I be somebody else? How do I get there? And how can I do it by myself? How can I support myself? How can I show up for myself? How can I be nice to me?How can I love me?"

F: Yeah. And I think it has to do with the intention as well. So you came out of this journey. You realize I tend to put too much expectation on relationships. I tend to get my sense of value from other people, etcetera. And then in the moment when you start seeing someone new and when that starts happening, even if it's not that easy to control, if you are aware of it, then you don't act the behaviors that will make it worse. Right? Like, you make a conscious effort to go against that impulse to attach your value to that person or to put those expectations. And of course it's hard, but I think that that's the first step.

L: It is. And it's true. It is. I feel like that's what I'm doing right now with this person that I'm casually dating but that I also have feelings for. I am protecting myself. I'm not allowing myself to completely fall for this person like I normally would. But again, we don't have the expectations for that to be a possibility. And so you kind of have to sometimes. And you can't always do that. You can't always help who you fall for. Right? But I think if you give yourself, like, real talk sometimes you're like: "Listen, this is not going to be your boyfriend"

F: Or like, your last partnership. You ended it because you realized that you did have expectations and reality wasn't meeting those expectations, and that was painful. So it doesn't have to be always change your expectations. It can also be accept reality and then go elsewhere.

L: Exactly.

M: And I think that the fact that the situation that you're in now, the intentions are actually very important to expectations because your expectations don't necessarily have to be met if your intentions are set up front of: "This can't be that". So you can't even build those expectations. In a way.

L: Comes down to communication.

M & F: Yeah.

L: You have to communicate it. And see, that's the difference between the person I'm with now and the person that I was with, the non polypoly person, right? We didn't communicate about the expectations, whereas this person and I, I'm totally fine to do what we're doing because we communicated our expectations. We communicated what we're both available for. And so it's fine had that person in the past done that with me, I probably would still be happy to be f****** them casually and be fine with that. But because they didn't set up those expectations or they didn't let me know what they were available for, even though I had clearly voiced them that I was having feelings for them. Yeah, it set me up for heartbreak. And inevitably, him, too. There was heartbreak there for him, too when I broke up with him, because I don't think he was expecting that, but, yeah, I was like: "I'm not going to just... no"

F: Yeah. And those things also, those expectations also change all the time. And so it's like constant communication. Even if you're not primaries, even if you're casually dating, if you have doubts, raise those doubts. Express how you feel. Express what you are available for at the moment, knowing that that can change.

F: I'm curious, and I'm sure that listeners will also be curious, this couple that you keep referring to that, I mean, you briefly said, you know, like, you met on a date, and then he was like: "Oh, you'll get along with my partner". Tell us about that. Because a lot of people are curious how it is to date a couple. You know?

L: To be a unicorn?

F: Yeah. How it is to be a unicorn? Or how was your experience? Because I'm sure everyone has different experiences, but I feel like in my head, it sounds really nice. I've had experiences with couples, but I've never dated. But not too long ago, I got to see a couple more than a couple of times, and I was like: "This is so great. There's a girlfriend and there's also a guy". I don't know. I think the concept of it sounds really cool to me, so I'd like to learn more about that.

L: Well, I think to this day, it's probably the healthiest relationship I've ever had. And that probably sounds crazy, but from the very moment we all three sat down together, it was like we were instant best friends and we had this instant connection. I had a date with the guy the first night. We held off on playing sexually because he wanted to wait for her since we were all going to have a date. And then he was like: "Can we just go somewhere private and just make out and talk more? Because I don't want the date to end". Because it was also like, restaurants were closing early because of the pandemic. And I was like: "Sure".

F: So was that something that he decided on the moment? "I feel like she would really click with my girlfriend, so I'm going to save it". But his initial intention was like, to maybe just hook up the two of you.

L: No, it wasn't to hook up. It was to hook up all of us, but it was, like, to preserve all of us meeting and officially having a date. He didn't want our date to end, but he wanted to save the actual intimate act of sex until we all met each other.

M: But the original idea of you going on a date together didn't involve his partner at all. It was, you guys met, and then he was like: "Oh, actually, I think this would be nice". And also, I really respect the way that he went about it, because there's a lot of people who can start off that way where it's like: "Oh, we're going on a date". But really, it's kind of, like, to reel into the relationship rather than, I want to give you this option if it's something that you are comfortable with.

F: Yeah. And also that he wanted to start in equal footing, because if you guys had had sex, which I'm not saying that it would have been a wrong decision or anything, but the good thing about doing it in that way is that there's no, like: "Oh, she's more my partner than his girlfriend".

L: "I had her first" or whatever.

M: There's no catching up.

F: Yeah. There's no initial imbalance. In a way.

L: He wanted to wait, and it was so cute because he was like: "Can we just, like, I don't want the date to end. We go somewhere and just, like, maybe make out and cuddle and talk" and I was like: "Great". And that's what we did.

F: Right. But if he didn't think that you would click with her, could you guys have had sex? Was that, like, within the agreements of his relationship?

L: I don't know, because I never asked him that question.

F: I see.

L: But I'm sure it was. And so, literally, the very next night, they invited me over to their apartment for dinner and cooked me dinner, and that's when I met the both of them. Yeah. And we were instant best friends, and we all ended up having phenomenal sex that night. Yeah. And then we did it for, like, a year.

F: And was it your first experience with a couple? With a couple? Yeah. Like. Like, well, I had had sexual experiences with couples, like, in my 20s, but that was my first experience, like, dating a couple, for sure. Yeah. They were primary partners. We didn't really talk about each other in any sort of hierarchical form. I was their partner is what they called me, and I called them my partners, and they never once have even called themselves primary partners.

That was just sort of like, how I referred to them as, because I didn't live with them, I wasn't involved in a lot of their normal relationship decision making things. I was the girl that they dated that they called over sometimes. Well, more often than sometimes, I would go over and we would, like, we'd watch movies, we'd cuddle, we'd have sleepovers. We'd take mushrooms together.

F: That sounds so much fun.

L: It was great.

F: How often would you see them and for how long did you date them?

L: So, in the very beginning, we saw each other quite often because it was during the pandemic and my job was pretty slow and their jobs were slower, and so we all had a lot more free time. I dated them for a year, like, a little over a year. So we had met right after my birthday. It was winter, so there was a lot of doing things indoors because a lot of other things were still kind of closed down at that point in time. I don't think there was a lot of parties still happening, really yet. And so, like, yeah, it was, It was a lot of us. And if there was, I honestly didn't know because they, they introduced me to the whole party scene, so I didn't know anything. I didn't have friends. They introduced me to their whole circle of friends. That's how I have the community that I have now is because of them. We spend a lot of time together, probably every weekend. It was just a lot of fun, man.

M: Yeah. We go over and especially when we first met, we would just do mushrooms, play Mario Kart, and watch movies and have f****** great sex and kinky sex and just do crazy, fun, weird things inside their apartment and cuddle and just share the most intimate, beautiful stories and experiences. I don't know. We just got really close for a minute, and I don't know if I'll ever have an experience that was quite as beautiful as that. And I'm okay if I don't ever again because that was so unique. And if I do, great, but I'm not upset if I don't because it was just so fulfilling as it was.

M: Sounds amazing.

L: It was good.

F: Yeah.

L: I think I also really liked the fact that they were at the core of the primaries, right? And so I didn't have as much of the responsibility, if that makes sense. I was the fun one that got to come in and make everything happy. Right? Does that make sense?

F: Yeah, that makes total sense. And then if they have an argument or whatever, you're like: "Okay, bye, I'm going to go home".

L: I usually didn't see it. I might hear about it from either one of them in a text, but it was not even that involved, ever. Usually they didn't really vent to me too often. I think they tried to keep me out of any sort of three way triangle fight thing, ever. I never had to be involved in that. Luckily, because I've heard from other friends who date couples, sometimes they get in…

F: In the middle, they get too close.

L: Right. I think that they made sure that they made sure it wasn't always in the middle. We did start to have a few personal issues, which, unfortunately, I don't have consent to share, but we did have a few personal issues that arose, and some of them were on me, and some of them, they were having their own issues that I can't even speak to. And it got to the point where we didn't have sex for, like, six months out of that whole year. But you were still meeting up. Yeah, we would still have sleepovers. We would still make out. We would still cuddle. We would still text each other all the time. But we knew that at the core of our partnership was a really strong friendship and that things on the partnership end were no longer working for us. And so before we lost our friendship, we wanted to end our partnership and still maintain that friendship. And so we ended it just after New Year's. And I can't say that it's been easy, but we still maintain a really good friendship, and I still love them dearly. In fact, it was one of their birthdays just last night that I was at a dinner. So it's not always easy seeing both of them, but I have a lot of love in my heart for them. And I know that we're going to be friends for a very long time, so it's not easy. But I'm still very happy to see them, if that makes sense.

M: Yeah, I think it's interesting when you open up your heart in this way and in this community, especially because our circles are so close, you're never going to not see anybody again. It feels like, unless you really completely change circles. But when you share with someone that feeling of love, whether it's this couple or the person that you're dating now or seeing now, and you share that I have this love for you, it's almost like these people become your family.

L: Definitely.

M: In a way, it's a chosen family, and it's like that kind of love that I appreciate you, I care for you. And, yeah, if something were to happen that gets in the way of our romantic or emotional relationship, that doesn't mean that I don't want to see it anymore. It doesn't mean I don't want you in my life anymore. I still love you, and you're still part of my family.

L: Definitely.

M: There's some time that needs to be there to heal, of course.

L: But it'll get easier with time.

M: Yeah.

L: And even when we ended it, it was like, this isn't necessarily a period. We don't want to just end this completely. It's not saying we can't revisit this after we've all done some work, but we just acknowledge that there was work that needed to be done on multiple levels, and we all need to take the time to do the work, and maybe we'd revisit it, and maybe we wouldn't, and it didn't matter either way. We would always still be in each other's lives.

F: Yeah, that's awesome also that they showed you what ethical non monogamy is, that they brought you into a community that you'll be part of even if you are not partners anymore. And it's awesome that you're friends still. So it goes a lot farther than that. So, yeah, I think that gives us kind of, like, a complete picture of your journey somewhat. But besides the person that you are dating right now, are you dating other people, or how are you approaching relationships now? Because also, you mentioned your solo poly journey before is different than it is now. What are some lessons that you've learned along the way? And also, where are you in terms of your dating life right now?

L: I would say I'm still very happy to be on a solo poly journey because I just started a new job that is taking a lot of my time. I don't honestly have a lot of time to be dating anybody again, I will say dating and casually dating, to me, are a little different. So right now, what I'm doing is casually dating. I have this person who is a friend and a lover. I wouldn't even say that we're dating the one that I mentioned earlier, right? We're also, at the core, there's a friendship. We have great sex. We have this huge appreciation for each other. I definitely have love in my heart for this person, and they're just a super honest communicator, which it just melts me. So there's that. I have other people in my life. Funny enough, there's two other couples in my life that I also consider close friends that I play with sexually from time to time. And I think part of me also really likes couples. I loved the dynamic of dating the last couple, and I can't really quite explain it to you, but there was a moment when I was dating them where I was going on these dates solo with other people where, because it just wasn't the same as having two people, I don't know, I had this moment where I was like: "I don't know if I can ever just have one partner. I think I need a couple". I mean, I've kind of gotten past that a little bit now. But in the moment I was like: "I don't think there is gonna be anyhting as good as being with two" There's always the phrase, like the turnip phrase, like: "Two brains are better than one". I don't know.

F: Three brains are better than one.

L: There you go. Right? Three brains are better than one. Was there something about the dynamic of the way we all three work together.

M: Well, I find that interesting, actually, because there was a brief moment where James and I dated a woman together, and it was at first such a wonderful and interesting experience. And one of the things that I enjoyed so much about that, of being on the couple side, is that we really got to focus on someone else. Whenever we went on a date or hooked up or whatever, it was about us coming together as a couple to please this person or to show her a good time or to go treat her to a nice date. And I think that there is something about a couple and being able to be the receiver of that, as long as everyone's on the same page and it's consensual and all of that. And if they're really there to both date you, I think there's something so special about that and can really be good to receive. I feel.

L: Yeah. I'm so glad you shared that. I didn't know that. That's so cute.

M: It was very brief. I love that. I see two other couples. It's more friendships where there's like a playful side to it. We do dates, but they're few and far between because we're all very busy people. But I'll run into them out in the party scene, I'll run into them out and we still love seeing each other and maybe hook up from time to time. Or this Saturday, I have a date with one of my couple of friends that I haven't seen in a long time. We're going to do a dinner date and then go to a friend's birthday after. It's going to be cute. But no, other than that, I don't really have any plans with anybody serious. Focus on my work. Focus still on myself and positive self talk, right? I think just because the way I was raised, the work ethic that I was raised with, when you grow up on a farm, right?

Unfortunately, some of that validation that I need to give myself comes from work, comes from being able to support myself, but also do it in a way that makes me happy. And so I think just the fact alone that I've started this new job is going to help me out a lot with that positive self talk, right? And I think eventually the right partner will come along when I'm ready. The universe will give it to me when I'm ready.

F: Yeah. And I mean, I don't know, I feel like some people tend to jump into like: "Oh, but why don't you have a partner?" And I hope that my questions didn't come across that way because it's not about the destination, right? It's about the journey. And it sounds like you are in a wonderful journey. I mean, you have had so many experiences, you have learned so much about yourself. Well, I mean, you've already given so many tips and advice, but is there anything that you would tell to a polycurious person out there who might be listening to this podcast?

L: Oh my gosh, that's right. Polycurious people: Communication is key. 1000%. Just because somebody says that they're poly when you meet them, it doesn't mean that they are fully experienced and being good communicators. So if you're ever dating somebody who says that they're poly and you're new to this and you feel insecure communicating to them, that's probably a red flag.

M: And a great way to kind of go around that too, is asking the question: "What does that mean to you?" Because poly can mean so many different things to a lot of people.

L: It's true. Yeah. Just be open, be honest, get comfortable having hard conversations. Because without communication, polyamory doesn't work. You think monogamy is hard? Polyamory is not just this free for all. You're going to f*** anybody you want to. It's communication, it's hard work. It's the work of one relationship, times as many relationships as you want to have. So it's way more complicated, but it can be so rewarding. I learned to get over my fear of vulnerability. I've learned to have, I mean, I'm still afraid of it sometimes, but I've learned to have hard conversations. I've learned the value of it. I've learned compersion through it. There's so many rewards I've gotten through breaking down the barriers of being afraid of vulnerability and communication. So that's my one takeaway. If you're polycurious, get comfortable with vulnerability.

F: Love it. Perfect way to end. London, thank you so much for being so open and vulnerable, taking your own advice that you just gave to the listeners. So, yeah, we appreciate you. Thank you for being here.

L: Oh, thanks for having me, guys. This was so much fun.

F: That's it for today's episode. I feel like there were so many amazing takeaways on this one. So if there was a friend that you were thinking about that you believe might resonate with this episode, please don't forget to share it with them.