Rachel: On the one hand, I'm falling deeper and deeper into these bad patterns with Adam, at the same time that I'm coming into my queerness and kink and getting liberated in other ways and really questioning what my life is allowed to look like. After coming out of that, I still feel like: "No, I still want to be non-monogamous". So that's where I ended up with feeling like non-monogamy is for me, but that it was very important to me that I practiced in a way that felt compassionate and ethical.

Fernanda: Hi, everyone. I am Fernanda, and this is Polycurious. And today I am speaking with Rachel Krantz. Rachel is better known for being one of the founding editors of Bustle, which is a women's magazine. She is the author of the book "Open, An Uncensored Memoir of Love, Liberation and Non-Monogamy". And in her book, she tells us the story of her relationship with Adam, who was her partner at the time, who introduced her to non-monogamy. And even though the book is somewhat a cautionary tale about gaslighting and manipulation, it is also a story about all the lessons and fun experiences that being open can bring.

As we talked about in this conversation, I feel like it's important to have all depictions of non-monogamy out there in the same way that they're healthy and unhealthy examples of monogamous relationships. We should have the same of non-monogamous relationships. And I feel like her book really shows the complexity of it all. I often have people telling me that before they discovered ethical non-monogamy, they were in non-monogamous relationships that were abusive. So I have always been super interested in where the line is right? What makes a relationship healthy or unhealthy, and how do you know when you are being manipulated or abused? Because often this isn't done in a really obvious way, and the person who's manipulating you might not even be aware that they are doing that. And in this conversation, we talk about that.

We dive deep into some of the red flags or indicators that might tell you that you are being gaslit, and hopefully you are not having those doubts in your relationships. But if you are, this conversation, I feel like it's going to be really valuable to you. We also talk about jealousy, why it can be such a difficult experience, and all of the factors that play into the degree of jealousy you feel. We talk about submissive-dominant dynamics, we talk about swingers, and about Rachel's reasons to still be non-monogamous. I really feel like you'll get a lot of this conversation. Rachel was truly such a wonderful guest.

Just a note before we start, because we did this interview online, her side of the audio doesn't have the quality that we normally have in the podcast, but the content is so amazing that I'm sure that you will forgive us for that.

So here's my interview with Rachel Krantz.

F: Welcome, Rachel, to Polycurious. I'm very, very excited to have you here. I've been reading your book and listening to your podcast interviews, and I've had so many thoughts and so many questions, and I'm so excited to finally be able to chat with you.

R: Thanks for having me.

F: Yeah. Why don't we just start before we go into your non-monogamous journey, just learning a little bit more about you just as a person and maybe also professionally, because you also have a very interesting background as a journalist, which you also bring into your book.

R: Yeah, sure. Well, I live in California. Currently I'm 34. The period of the book "Open" takes place between when I was 27 and 31. So not that long ago, but definitely a different era of my life. And it starts in New York and moves to LA and then the Bay area and kind of all around as I have. And, yeah, I worked as a journalist, have worked as a journalist since I was pretty young and helped start a website called Bustle, which is a big women's website. And I was features editor there and also wrote. Then I worked as lead writer for the nonprofit Mercy for Animals. I'm an ethical vegan, and so I enjoyed writing on that beat. And then I ended up hesitantly leaving so that I could write this book. And that's what I've been doing the last couple of years.

F: That's great. And how about your background growing up? Because I think that also influences your journey that you narrate throughout the book, the way that you were brought up and how your parents raised you.

R: Yeah, absolutely. Well, I was raised in Oakland, California, and my parents are both liberal Jews and got divorced when I was two. And I would go back and forth between their houses kind of like every other day. And I think that that influenced me immensely because I was an only child. And while I wouldn't say overarching that it was bad, it was just different in that I had different sides of myself that would come out in these different homes, depending on each parent and what they valued more and what they brought out in me. And then my stepdad came into my life when I was four, and there was there the whole time with my mom and also my uncle I am very close to and grew up seeing multiple times a week.

So I think I sort of had this model of, there were sort of three father figures in my life. There was a variation with who I was spending my time with, all the time and different environments and different sides of myself coming out and kind of an understanding that you could love many people in similar but different ways. And I do think all those things potentially predispose me to having more trouble with long term monogamy, in terms of the monotony of it, of it just doesn't feel right to me to always be seeing the same person every day, in the same house every day, necessarily. There's something about that that feels just deeply unnatural because I think of my childhood and I think also predisposed me to dom/sub dynamics being appealing, which is another big part of the book. Adam was very dominant, and I had always felt kind of like a mini adult and often kind of emotionally responsible for my parents and kind of like I was the one in charge on some level, since I was probably too young. And so I think when I found myself in my first truly submissive role in a relationship, it was very seductive because it just felt like: "Oh, finally, I don't have to drive, or I can just take someone else's authority seriously".

F: Right. And we'll go more into that, but before we do, can you give us an overview of what your book is about and kind of why you decided to write it? And also, I wanted to personally congratulate you for doing so, because even though you do acknowledge that you are in a privileged position to do so, it is very important to put those stories out there, and there aren't that many people. And the level of openness that you explore in your book is remarkable. So I just wanted to say that, but also, if you could just tell us a little bit more about what the book is about, what people can expect when reading it.

R: Thank you so much for saying that. That means a lot to me. Well, so the book, like I was saying, tells the story of when I was 27. And it starts right at when I meet this man, Adam, and that relationship, that primary relationship is sort of at the center of the book. And I was on the heels of a breakup, a serial monogamist, and had kind of been dating a lot of kind of immature guys, and was pretty sick of the pattern of always being the one to break up, always kind of falling in love and then getting restless and seeing how we were incompatible, breaking up and then doing it all over again. And Adam was very compelling. He was older than me, really, really smart, a teacher, a psychologist, and told me before we even kissed on our second date that if I were with him, he would never restrict me, that he wanted to be privileged and find a life partner, but that so long as I was honest and he still felt like he was kind of the main person, that I would be free to do whatever I wanted. And I was familiar with the concept of non-monogamy, but I didn't know how to begin, so I thought this could be my opportunity to see a different way. But for me, I was very nervous about the idea of him being with other people.

So for the first year, it was just non-monogamous on my end. And that's the first part of the book, is about those adventures, which were mainly together because he revealed he was into a fetish called "hotwifing", which is about when men like to watch their partner with other men. It can exist in all gender and sexual permutations, but that one would be an example of that. So we went to parties and arranged MFM threesomes. And then about a year in, I met someone else independently, and I decided: "Okay, time to open it up on both sides". And that's where I started battling jealousy. And so a lot of the book is about that. At the same time that I'm coming into my queerness, coming into my kinkiness, my submissive side, the relationship is also, at the center, getting increasingly unhealthy.

The red flags are getting more extreme and obvious, and it slowly progresses with a lot of gaslighting and eventually emotional abuse. And so it's as much a story of that trajectory that I think even if people are not non-monogamous, they might relate to that, because a lot of people have at one point, been in a situation, unfortunately, where they slowly lose trust in their own sense of judgment or even reality under this very strong personality's influence. So it is also the story of that. And along the way, because I'm a journalist, I was recording some of these things, kind of knowing. It was interesting also as a coping mechanism, because he was so often saying to me: "You're remembering things wrong" or my feelings were deemed, like, not true. And I didn't trust my own judgment anymore by a few years in. So I thought: "Okay, can I record this?" And he let me, to his credit. And so it became a way of sort of having an objective witness, I guess, at the same time that me, too, was going on, and knowing as a woman in our culture, that if I did ever want to write about it one day.

The only way I would maybe be believed is if I had a lot of evidence. And so I sort of had this impulse to gather evidence and to also just be curious about this odyssey I had been on, because it started with parties and MFMs, and then I was doing battle with jealousy, and then I was coming into my queerness, and then I had experiences exploring being the dom and a top. I mean, just all kinds of interesting things fell in with this group of swingers. So you kind of just see me going on this odyssey throughout the book that's contextualized by the lots of research and interviews I did then, but also since, in order to understand how my story represents larger social trends. So it reads like a memoir, hopefully page turning, plot driven, but

F: Definitely

R: Throughout, you're getting context in the footnotes and also woven in of what percent of people surveyed have this fantasy, or how is this an example of white privilege or any number of different things that I felt were important to contextualize.

F: Right. And I found it so interesting how you also made sense of your own experience through talking to experts and all of that, which, as you said, it kind of also validates what you were going through. So I think that it's not only a memoir, it's a great resource. And, yeah, I want to talk about the beginning of your relationship with Adam. As you mentioned, for a while, he was like: "You can be open, and I'll stay closed". Kind of like to ease you in. And I think it was at a play party when you first had some experiences with some men, I believe, in front of him. And I remember reading that, that moment made you realize that being with other men didn't take anything away from Adam, but it actually just made you want to go back to him. You know, I felt very identified with that because I feel like even though I might enjoy myself a lot on a date and I've had people that I've connected with strongly, often I go back to my partner, like, very happy and very reassured of the relationship. So can you tell us a little bit more about that experience, not only on that first play party you went to, but I think throughout the book, you kept feeling this way.

R: Yeah, I think it can be very reaffirming of if you have a longer relationship, you don't take the person for granted in the same way, and you also appreciate that they are affording you this freedom. It's a very confident thing to be able to do, which is attractive, and it also helps you explore things that maybe are just new relationship energy or that you're excited about that otherwise would have turned into an affair and potentially blowing up your entire life. But because of non-monogamy, you have this chance to explore. I heard someone describe it as like, looking under the hood a little bit. So you don't need to blow up your life. You can date that person until you realize there is the potential you might be like: "Oh, I'd rather be spending more time with this other person". Or: "This is really pointing out things that aren't working for me anymore in my preexisting relationship". But often I think people find it can make them appreciate what they have, the bond they already have, even more. I think in my case, that was part of it.

I really appreciated that Adam encouraged me to have these experiences and that I could still have them. But increasingly over time, I also saw that even though he read very confident and dominant, he was insecure in different ways that anyone as excited about, he would often make undercutting comments about them. To kind of remind me that he was the best or that other dudes were losers was like a common thing he would say or whatever. So I think that that's also, as it progressed, part of why I kept feeling so "reaffirmed" was because I had really bought into his way of seeing as of better judgment and more correct even than my own viewpoint at a certain point. And so if he thought someone sounded fun but kind of immature, that's how I then began to see them. I found it easy to get excited about new people, but harder to attach. And one difference I've noticed since being in a dynamic that is also non-monogamous, but where my partner doesn't do that and undercut other people, I find it's a little easier to have those feelings maintained or attach because it's not as much of a competition.

F: That's interesting, I mean, at some points in the book, you were like: "Oh, Adam couldn't do this" or things like that, you know, the contrast sometimes makes you appreciate. But yeah, it can go either way. And in your situation, it was also his narrative that was kind of playing in your head. Can you tell us more about kind of like, that relationship? Because you come to realize it's a sub/dom relationship, but Adam never considered it that way. So what aspects of it made it a dom/sub relationship besides the hotwifing thing?

R: Yeah. So that was definitely one of the ways it was expressed. But before that. Well, first of all, it was baked into just the power dynamics of the relationship somewhat from the beginning and that he was older, he encouraged me to move in with him very quickly. He was a teacher and things about his personality. He was really a natural daddy in certain ways. Very much wanting to talk about protecting me, cooking me dinner every night, expressing very strong opinions about the clothing he preferred. And I found I started dressing only to his liking. I called him "daddy" during sex once by accident. I was embarrassed, but it just kept coming out when I would come. And so then he started calling me "his girl". And I started doing some research on what is that? Why do people say "daddy" during sex? Because I never had. That had never happened before and it kind of creeped me out.

And I learned that for a lot of people, if they are a more loving dominant, where it's not as much about punishment, and a submissive who enjoys submission, but maybe not pain, that a lot of times you might find yourself in that "daddy/girl" or "mommy/boy" or "mommy/girl", whatever it is permutations dynamic, where it's more focused on the dom, nurturing the little and the little, having the space to kind of be younger and taken care of and aiming to please that dom. And so all those things are great. And I think what was very confusing is that I really liked it and realized was going through an awakening of like: "Oh, I like this a lot. I'm probably going to want to carry this forward into any big relationship potentially". And I also knew enough about kink that it's not inherently bad to have someone where you're addressing to their preferences or they're correcting you on all the things you do around the house and that you enjoy that is not necessarily bad. But I think where the red flag was, or one of them in our relationship was that none of it was really talked about. And he viewed himself as outside of these power dynamics. Actively dislike BDSM. And you would say that s*** is ugly as f*** and those people are pretending and it's so much artifice. We're just being us.

And I think that's part of the real cautionary tale of the arc of you see a lot of things that are so fun about kink, but all the ways that can go really wrong if you don't have a relationship, or relationships where you're able to explicitly talk about the dynamic that's happening, even if it comes very naturally to both of you and create some sorts of ideas of rules or boundaries or ways to signify consent or lack thereof. Because even if you're in a 24/7 dom/sub situation, there has to be a way for the sub to express that they aren't feeling safe anymore. That's kind of the whole point. They should feel safe, right? A distinction I like that one expert in the book helped me see is like a sub can feel happily nervous a lot of the time of like: "Oh, if I do this wrong, I'm going to get punished" or something like that.

F: And excited about being punished, probably.

R: And excited about being punished. But if it's a situation like I ended up in, where I'm feeling constantly anxious, and if I don't do what the "daddy" who says he's not even a "daddy", whatever it sort of does, it's confusing. If I don't do what he says and follow his rules, which always seem to be changing, I'm going to lose him at any moment or he's going to withdraw affection. And so for me, that ended up looking like whatever form of non-monogamy he wanted to practice adhering to his worldview, and the symptoms of that got increasingly unhealthy.

So I think that's one good thing. For potential subs to know or people who might find themselves in these situations is, like, cool. If it's naturally occurring with your personalities, great. But don't get caught up in any snobbery of, like: "We're going to kill the magic if we talk about it explicitly". Because, like, a BDSM expert in the book says, if by talking about your dynamic, you do lose the magic, then it's not actually a match. A real dom that's an extension of their protecting you and their confidence is that they are totally happy to have those conversations and they want to have ways that you can feel safe expressing when you don't feel safe. So I hope that watching the journey, people will learn a lot from my mistakes along the way.

F: Yeah, this is a topic I'm very interested about because I'm all for sub/dom relationships if that's what turns you on, if that's what makes you feel good. I have a friend who's a dominatrix. I know in your book you also get involved with a dominatrix. So I'm sure you've thought about this a lot. And I mean, as you just said, you talk to experts, but throughout the book, I was like: "Okay, where's the line?" I was trying to find the moments or the things that were like, the red flags.

So, yeah, as you said, you didn't have a conversation about it. That's a red flag. But then other things that I noticed coming back to the point of the importance of feeling safe. Whenever you raised doubts about non-monogamy, you felt like you were being weak or there was something wrong with you, like you didn't have that space to feel safe. And another thing that actually reminded me of my previous relationship, which was monogamous but also somewhat abusive, that he would never admit that he was wrong. Right? Sometimes all you need to hear is: "I'm so sorry I did this" and move forward and I remember just being so frustrated with my ex that he just wouldn't do that. And something I love about my current partner is that he actually does that. And that makes me feel very safe. Besides what you already explained, are there any other signs that people who might be in a sub/dom relationship, and they might have talked about it, but they might be wondering like: "Is this healthy? Is this unhealthy?" Any other tips you can think of?

R: Yeah, that's a great one you just mentioned. That was definitely part of it. Is there an ability to admit they're wrong and to communicate about these things without it escalating? Is any behavior that fails to match up with their preferences? Is it viewed or framed as a character flaw in you or a weakness, rather than being held with compassion and concern for how they can help you get back to a place where you feel safe enough to consent?

I think also in those initial fights where I would start to feel manipulated and try to talk about what was happening and saying this is a really extreme power dynamic, he would just sort of say: "You're just interpreting everything through the lens of power because you're afraid of not being in control for once". Or he would often say: "Because your parents are divorced, you just don't know what happiness is and so you don't trust it" and things like that. I think when people make overarching statements of anytime you're uncomfortable or having expressing doubts, that again, it's reframed as like your thing to unlearn. But there's a lack of ability to recognize their own subjectivity. And the thing that's complicated is that sometimes people are right in their critique of like: "It is stuff from your childhood coming up" or whatever, but can they acknowledge on their side that they also have stuff from childhood or that they also have different kinds of fears and anxieties? I think that's what you really want to look for. And if they don't have an ability to self reflect that way, or view that even as weakness on some level, that's a bad sign. Also, in those initial fights, he would just contact me incessantly. Like, I remember one day I tried to get a little more space and talked about moving out, and he just called and texting, called and texting, emailed and called, and dozens of times that day. I'd never experienced anything like that. And when I got home, he got on his knees and he begged me not to leave. And it was so intense and moving because he was so dominant and seemingly indomitable. And here he was on his knees with his eyes watering and desperate to keep me. But that's also often part of a less functional cycle, is that when you finally start to get the strength to leave or even just create more boundaries or distance, that the person gets very very intense, often desperate or won't respect your boundaries is like incessantly telling you things or communicating even when you've told them you need space. He would often block the door or make me touch him as we were arguing so that we didn't stay needlessly distant. So, again, if someone can't respect that you need a little space or you need a little time, I would say that's another big red flag.

F: Yeah, those are all great pointers, so thank you for that. And also something that I want to acknowledge, because as much as I just complained about my ex, for example, I also, throughout that relationship, had the feeling that he wasn't doing it on purpose and that he wasn't aware that he was being manipulative and that he wasn't aware that he was being abusive and all of that. And he really meant well.

And that's one of the reasons why I stayed in that relationship so long, because you kind of have this hope. "If they really mean well, they're going to change". And you do make this point in the book that you're not trying to paint Adam as a villain. He's just a person, and he probably had good intentions and all of that, but that doesn't mean that he's not abusive and manipulative. So I don't know if you have any comments on that.

R: Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for bringing that up. That was very important to me to show, because I felt like the narrative often was very much like: "Who's the villain? Who's the victim?" And this idea that someone's kind of mostly all bad if they're being abusive. I felt that narrative took a lot of agency away from me as the supposed victim, as if this was all just happening to me.

Witnessing him over the years, I could see I was often more conscious of his manipulations than he was. And that was part of the problem, was that he wasn't examining the ways in which he was being manipulative or gaslighting or any of these other bad behaviors. And so to acknowledge that is not to absolve people of their responsibility, but I think it is to have compassion and the curiosity around, well, why? What is the suffering that drives so many, especially men, to want to exert control over, especially women? It doesn't always go that way, but it's more often and often in talking to psychologists, it has a lot to do with the ways they also suffer under patriarchy and these expectations of what being a man means. And there's a lot of disavowed fragility or sensitivity, emotions besides anger, right? That men are not supposed to have. And because of patriarchy and sexism, a looking down upon feminine traits like feeling.

F: Admitting you're wrong.

R: Admitting you're wrong, all these things. And so that creates this cycle where they feel a lot of shame at knowing on the inside that they're not perfectly upholding this idea of what a perfect man is supposed to be, and also feeling angry that they have to. And because they're not socialized with as much allowance for emotional intelligence and talking about relationships and feelings, there's then often a lack of ability to communicate these things in relationship.

And all of that causes a lot of harm and suffering and shame that then gets acted out on other people in an attempt to assert basically more rightness, more power, to convince themselves that the mask is working. But they know on some level it's a lie that they're not treating the people they love well. And that creates more unhappiness and also a lack of respect for the people they fall into relationship with who are just taking their bad behavior. And this is all to say, I think most of this is actually very unconscious. But in talking to psychologists, they said that's often what they feel the pattern is. And so that's why it's important to talk about it and have a curiosity and compassion around it and bring it more above board rather than only being about blame, to understand what is the psychology that leads to this and how would, maybe starting earlier, with allowing men a broader range of emotions and vulnerability he's allowed to feel? And how can women, especially in relationship, without making excuses for bad behavior for men, also create a culture in the relationship where the men are allowed to be vulnerable?

And I know that's a tough one. I lived through all of this, and I have way more awareness around it now. But I think that I could still do better in asking my nesting partner more about the ways he feels scared. It's still more of a dynamic of, I'm the one who gets scared, right? And he's the one who comforts and these kind of gender norms that color experience. But men get scared, too, get sad, too. And where does it go if it all gets stuck down? It comes out in bad ways.

F: Yeah, for sure. And it's crazy to think of all the ways society influences our relationships. But as you said, I think that even if someone is acting in that manipulative or abusive way, I think that fundamentally, they must have at least an awareness of it and a willingness to try to change. And maybe that's something that was lacking in your relationship. But on the other hand, Adam had a lot of good qualities, even though he made you feel those ways. He also always told you you could do whatever you want. He gave you pretty much complete freedom. He let you close the relationship when you felt it was needed. He let you open up before he did. I totally understand why it took you some time to realize the situation you were in, because in a way, he didn't seem at all like he was being manipulative. It was very subtle, like, he had a lot of good things going for him. And he made you feel good in a lot of ways as well.

R: Totally. And I think people in that situation, that's the other part of why it was important for me to depict that, is like, that's the truth of it. They're not all bad. In fact, they're not even often, most of the time bad. And that's why people stay in those situations, because there's a lot to love about the person that they fell in love with, or they see it so obvious that they don't mean to be hurting them. And this narrative that someone who's mistreating you has to be, like, consciously getting up in the morning and plotting how they're going to harm you is just not true. I think in Adam's case, he was just so sure that his own worldview was the correct one, that he felt that if I could just do what he said, basically, if I could see the world the way he did, that I would be happy.

That my biggest problem was just I was creating all this suffering because I was resisting the more evolved or correct way to be, or seeing things irrationally or whatever else. He didn't necessarily see his own subjectivity, but he really, I don't think, meant to harm me. I don't think that at all. And so I think it's important to show depictions of that because I think that's actually the much more common scenario that people find themselves in. And that's why it's incredibly hard to leave, because you see how the person really does love you, but they're just maybe not loving you in a way that's going to work for your life or a way you deserve to be loved. But you see that on some level, they're trying and maybe succeeding in a lot of ways. And you just feel especially, like, with the beginnings of these kinds of relationships are often extremely intense. The term that people use is love bombing, where it's like you feel like you're in a fairy tale, and there's a lot of talk of rescuing you and taking care of you and stuff, like, happened with us. Where he had me move in really quickly is very common. And so it happens incrementally over time that those feelings of being special and chosen are withdrawn or withheld, often again, unconsciously, by that person. And then the person who is in my position will try to basically be good or do what the other person wants to get back to that place because it was so magical.

And often what happens is there's a sort of dance of, like, sometimes it'll be like, you do get back to that place for a few minutes or days even, and then it slides back. And so it's really part of a prolonged pattern that's very tricky.

F: Yeah, for sure. And I also want to talk about jealousy because part of the reason why Adam had that thinking of: "If only you believe what I said and you trusted me, everything would be fine" was because you had a really hard time at the beginning dealing with jealousy. And the way you describe it is that often when you felt strong emotions, you were able to recognize them and kind of control them. But with jealousy, it was really like a new kind of emotion that you had no control over. Can you share a little bit about that experience? Because I'm sure many of the listeners who are starting to explore non-monogamy and have to wait for their partner to come back from a date feeling jealous and feeling all the things. I'm just curious about your process with jealousy.

R: Yeah, well, it was an extremely humbling part of the journey that I was curious about. I mean, I was dreading confronting it, but I was also like, whoa, this is very intense, what this is bringing up in me. And I had never even thought of myself as a jealous person. I mean, I thought of myself as, like, an anxious person, but in terms of the way jealousy is depicted as a feeling of know envy is one component of jealousy. But part of what I get into in the book is how Freud broke it down as actually like being comprised of many different fears and uncomfortable know fear of loss, of status and abandonment and betrayal and envy and wrapped together.

So it's kind of a perfect cocktail of a lot of people's potential childhood wounds or fundamental beliefs of thinking they're fundamentally unlovable. Also an intense sense of loss people experience of being the one and only, or of the illusion that in the choosing just one person that we are sort of enough. Right? And I think that enoughness helps reinforce our sense of self and ego and maybe even forget our own mortality and stuff because it feels less impermanent. But when you're adapting to non-monogamy, you're coming face to face with unlearning social constructs, but also confronting, I think, impermanence and non-attachment and all these other buddhist ideas I explore in the book of, you can't really hold on to anything, right? And so it's this way of sort of coming face to face with, on some level, another type of intense loss that's very challenging. And I think the other thing that was going on was, Adam, even though in a lot of ways, he was incredibly patient. And I look back on it now, and I'm like, yeah, it must have been extremely unattractive and frustrating to go through this with me

F: Sorry to interrupt. Can you just give some examples for the listeners of your reactions that you just mentioned that might have been unattractive to Adam?

R: Yeah. I once wrote him, like, a ten page email about my jealousy. That's not attractive. I would sometimes burst out crying after a date when I thought I was okay, but then he would say something and it would just all come out and we would have a fight. I was sometimes self harming, which had never happened before, in terms of just, like, hitting my head against a wall. I mean, stuff that's really not good, not attractive, not emotionally healthy, destructive. So I try to own up to that in the book. I also think while a big part of it was my own difficulty adapting to non-monogamy and with my jealousy, that jealousy was also a symptom of the pre-existing things that were not working in the relationship. You know, Kathy Labriola, who's my counselor in the book and wrote this book "Love and Abundance" she writes that jealousy is like a smoke alarm. It's there to alert you that there might be a fire, but it's up to you to check whether there is a fire or you just need to change the batteries.

And so I think in my case, sometimes I just needed to change the batteries and chill the f*** out. But sometimes there actually was a fire, and I was being told by someone: "There's not a fire. Why do you think that? You're being crazy?" And I was, on some level, probably sensing that things were being hidden from me that were very important. I don't want to ruin it because it's kind of like revelations in the book that come later. But I found out in reporting the book about certain very serious things that were being lied about, I sensed there was something not to be trusted. And when I would try to express that, he would say: "That's just because of your trust issues. And if you could just trust me and trust in the relationship, you would be happy". And I think that condition in itself, even if it hadn't been untrue, like, even if he had been totally trustworthy, that's a very difficult place for anyone to feel safe and not jealous from. Because then basically, anytime they're experiencing jealousy, it's their character flaw. It's their problem to solve. It's their trust issues that need to be unlearned. Whereas potentially, if my partner might be experiencing jealousy now, the way I would try to frame it with him having learned from being on the other side of it, what I needed to hear is, first of all: "I'm sorry you're feeling this. This is legitimate. Is there anything I can do to make you feel safer right now? Is there anything you think is bringing up these feelings right now? Do you need space? Do you need more quality time? Do you need to renegotiate our agreement?" That's a very different place to start from. That helps descalate the jealousy a lot faster because the person feels seen, validated, safe. Like, the person can hold that emotion with compassion, and then it can often diffuse it, or they can talk and figure out how to change the batteries, how to prevent it from getting out of hand.

So I think that's one of the main lessons I've learned, is that jealousy is a journey that everyone has to go on themselves. And it's one of self examination. It's not a lot of it was my stuff to decondition and work through and will continue to be, I'm sure, in future experiences, you have to take responsibility for yourself. But if the other person or people you're going on that journey with frame that your times when you fall short or where your body's response doesn't catch up to where you want your mind or heart to be. If they frame that as a weakness or a failure, or they berate you for it, or they act out as a result, that's not good.

F: Yeah. It's interesting because in your book, you could recognize the value of having your own experiences. Like, if you went on a date or were having some sort of connection with someone, you felt really lucky and happy, and you were like, this is not taking away from my relationship, but translating that to the other side and thinking the same thing to the other side. And I'm very curious about that because even though I'm non-monogamous, my boyfriend is so far monogamous. So I haven't had to experience that jealousy. And from my conversations and my experience, I know that when the time comes, I'll probably sit here and feel jealous. But a part of me is like: "Well, I probably wouldn't feel jealous because I understand that having those experiences is so fulfilling and it doesn't take away from my relationship, and I want him to feel the same way". I mean, you already mentioned that in your case, there were other things that were going on that were making you feel unsafe. But why do you think making that translation is so difficult?

R: Well, because it is so threatening to the ego on such a visceral level to know your partner is out with someone else. And that sort of very visceral old fear a lot of people have from being feeling replaced by a sibling when they had a younger sibling born or something, or feeling like they lost their family in a divorce or whatever the wound might be. It tends to get really dug into with, for some reason, your partner having other romantic attachments, especially. And for that same reason, I was interested to keep going because I felt like, wow, if I could confront this, I feel like I'd be pretty fearless, because you just see immediately how surprisingly challenging it is to your ego, potentially. I also think that, as with all things, it depends a lot on the dynamic, like I was saying, and also potentially the power dynamic, specifically, not even just whether it's a healthy or unhealthy one. But I do think I've noticed that it is easier for people to deal with jealousy when they feel extremely secure in their relationship already, or like they have an more or less equal amount of power, or maybe even more power, all of those things make it easier.

Whereas if you're already in a dynamic, like I was with him being a dom and me being a sub, and there being this just intense differential in that I was trying to adhere to his world vision and feeling like I was often falling short and kind of at his mercy. And I sort of liked that, but it also made me very nervous, and I knew something was wrong with it. That's like a very different place from where I find myself now with my partner when he goes on a date. I'm rooting for him. And we still have a daddy/girl dynamic to a degree, but it's a very different, I think, because he's naturally more monogamous. Like, he's, like, non-monogamous curious, I guess, but it's not as an integral part of his identity.

And because there's just this real feeling of security of him just proving again and again he's super committed. And if anything, I'm the one who maybe can be more testing of that. Of course, I feel in a more secure position that's easier to feel compersion or excitement when he's on a date, or even, to my own surprise, like rooting for it to work out or very turned on by the idea. And you meet a woman named Amalia in the book, who's a swinger, and she's been in a long term marriage with her husband, Rory. And she's this very incredibly beautiful woman. And her husband just adores her, adores her, adores her so much. But she's also a sub, and they have a nice dom/sub relationship. But part of the reason she gets off so much on him being with other people to the point where she really says it's her kink hothusbanding, basically, is that I think she wants to, as a sub, and as someone who just wants maybe more that sense of slight danger while also feeling fundamentally safe. She wants the kind of slight challenge of it because she feels so secure that it's kind of fun to have that little challenge, or it kind of makes him read more like a dom that these other women want him, or she has to be on her game, even though she knows in her heart of hearts that the minute she says stop, he's going to stop. It's a very primary, secondary thing. He really ultimately only has eyes for her. And so from that very secure foundation, she loves him being with other women. And so I think that's not necessarily the right model for everyone.

But I have found, for me, being in this other dynamic where I'm the one who's more experienced or feels like they have more "power" around experience of non-monogamy or interest in it. Yeah, my experience of jealousy is very different. It's more as a pleasurable thing so far, but I'm also very humble. I think it's always important to be very humble. Jealousy is a way of humbling. So I'm sure if he did get super serious with someone, maybe I would continue to really like it and root for it, but I'm sure there'd be more jealousy coming up sometimes. But I am pretty certain it would be a very different situation just because it's a very different dynamic. And also, I'm more experienced and older.

F: Yeah, I think you make a really good point. It's not just how long have you been experiencing jealousy, like, how long have you put yourself through that exposure therapy, but also what's your role in the relationship? I think that similarly, if and when my partner decides to go out, I'll probably be like: "Whoa, go for it!" But just because I've been doing it for ages and I feel very very secure in my relationship, and I think that's important. And I think that's why it's important to ask for reassurance when you are feeling jealous, because that brings more security and that helps with the experience. I also do think that it probably gets easier with time, but you actually touched on some topics that I also wanted to talk about with Amalia and the swingers, and how you kind of entered the swinger community and learned a lot from them? And you mentioned that they kind of have figured out how to have an emotionally secure relationship in a way. And also something that stuck with me is that when you went to a workshop, someone said: "Go as fast as the slowest person". So are there any lessons that you learned from swingers that you feel like people can benefit from?

R: Yeah. Well, that's one I've definitely carried on. The idea of go is as fast as the slowest person, and that's not always easy when you're the more experienced one. Or maybe you want to do something that your partner is not comfortable with yet, but I found it's a more compassionate way to approach it. And so long as it's what you're willing to do for the sake of that relationship or relationships, I think it's the more compassionate thing. I mean, it's not to say go as fast as the slowest person indefinitely, even if it's not what you want at all. But if you feel like: "Okay, it's worth it to me that my partner be fully on board with this, it's worth it to me that I maybe have a little less fun in this moment at this party, or a little take things a little slower with this new partner than I might want to" then I think it's a really good rule of thumb, if you can keep checking in with that, and it also tends to get you more of what you want.

Anyway, in the book, you see us locked in this fundamental power struggle where I'm saying to Adam: "Why can't you just give me primary privileges like the swingers have, where it's like they each get this veto power if they want the person to stop?" And he viewed that as weak or as kind of not as nice of a way to love because it's restricting your partner, that it would also hurt other people, which I get. But I think that the way I saw these couples practice, it seemed very ethical and above board and very loving between them. And it was the foundation that allowed them to have enough security that they could then have adventures from it. I found the times where he did say: "Okay, you can drive. I'm going to go as fast as the slowest person, aka you" that I tended to relax a lot and feel much more open and like I wanted to do all the things he wanted me to do because I didn't feel like I was powerless as much. So I think it is a good rule of thumb. I mean, I think the swingers also taught me that it can work in the long term and that it can evolve. I've seen them all go through different phases of stuff that's much more on the closed end or much more restricted to just lifestyle spaces, to some of them now being more polyamorous in practice, dating outside of play spaces. One, even since, has become part of a throuple that's really serious.

So I've just seen this continued commitment, but also an openness to continued evolution and a sort of shared commitment to navigate that as honestly as possible together. That I think is really admirable, because it does take a lot of commitment. If you decide to practice non-monogamy long term with someone, you're going to need to talk about it a lot. You're going to need to be willing to weather the lows as well, and all this discomfort. So it actually seemed a real part of their attachment and commitment to each other.

F: Yeah. And it also struck me that no wonder swingers seem to have been around longer than full on polyamorous people, because it does seem like it's a situation in which most people can feel less threatened, a little bit more comfortable. Like you mentioned, most swingers, if they communicate outside their sexual encounters, they do it in a group chat. They're literally there watching each other doing the things. So there's a lot less uncertainty. And I'm not saying there's a better or a worse way to do it, but I feel like for people out there who might be thinking about non-monogamy and don't really know how to start or where to go about it, I feel like for a lot of people that works for other people like me, that's not really appealing because I have very different desires than my partner, probably, and my partner is not even into that.

And I wouldn't even want him to do something that he doesn't want so he could put us in. So it depends on the situation. But I think that that idea of approaching non-monogamy together and trying to do it in a secure way in which everyone's included and communicative, it's like a healthy version of it.

R: Yeah, it really works well for some people. And I think that's the thing, is that you should be allowed to explore different things. And if you try the lifestyle spaces as a couple, if you're new to this and you're like: "Actually, this is not for us" then you can reassess what is. Maybe it's more a primary, secondary model of polyamory. Maybe you want non-hierarchical polyamory. Maybe you just want to have a "don't ask, don't tell" policy when each of you is traveling or three steps together.

There's lots of different things on the spectrum. And I think sometimes it's represented so much as like, either it's total monogamy and anything else is cheating, or it's like total polyamory and everyone has like, three or four partners and there's no rules, and that's totally fine. Either of those ways are fine to be, but most people are probably going to be happiest somewhere along the spectrum, in the middle. And so figuring that out together, having conversations around that, while scary, can also be potentially really fun and exciting. And people might find that there's options that don't initially give them as jealous of a reaction, and that it's probably good to explore some of those options first, rather than jumping directly to the hardest thing of like: "Okay, we're going to open up this relationship that's been monogamous for two years right away, and both start independently dating other people". That's fine. That works for some people, but I think most people see more success when they sort of ease in together. Like, go on more towards the monogamy spectrum, but sort of dip their toes in and begin to explore.

F: Yeah. And that's kind of also the point of Polycurious, to show people there's many ways of doing it, everyone's doing differently. Just figure out what works for you. And on that note, your book is great because it's not only shedding light on non-monogamy, but also on this kind of dynamic that happens between couples, even in monogamous relationships that can be potentially unhealthy. And I know you are aware of this, but because those two things are together, then there's the risk that some people might read it. Like, non-monogamy is, like, always a hot mess and that type of thing. So I'd like you to talk a little bit about your current relationship and maybe how that journey, because sometimes one has to go through difficult and unhealthy relationships to arrive to something that's more healthy, how that journey informed your relationship now, and just generally how things are going in your non monogamous journey. Because it's been a couple of years since the story of the book ended.

R: Yeah. Thank you. And, yeah, I have had that fear that people will walk away with those stereotypes. But in talking with other non-monogamous people, came to feel it's important to just have more complex depictions that are more relatable to people. Because if we only put our best foot forward and only show the situations where it's worked out really well, I think on some level it strikes people as propaganda, and it's not very relatable because, of course, monogamy has all kinds of outcomes. It has great outcomes, but it also has so many examples of awful, abusive outcomes and everything in between. And non-monogamous relationships are not going to be any different. They're not inherently worse or better. It's different people coming together, just a slightly different paradigm.

And there's going to be people who that works out great for and people it doesn't work out great for. And it's important to talk about. I think that full spectrum, if we're going to have more acceptance because it's more relatable, it makes us human, rather than just these perfect people who never get jealous or whatever, or who never end up in bad relationships. And I hope that people will see that. It's very complex that on the one hand, I'm falling deeper and deeper into these kind of bad patterns with Adam, at the same time that I'm coming into my queerness and kink and getting liberated in other ways and really questioning what my life is allowed to look like and how both those things can be true at the same time. And I think it makes sense at the end how after coming out of that, I still feel like: "No, I still want to be non-monogamous". And I've since heard from other people, particularly women, who've read the book and said: "Oh, I'm so glad to finally hear this represented, because I also came to non-monogamy through a really unhealthy relationship, and I felt like I couldn't talk about it and I still am non-monogamous and realized that that part of it is really for me, it's just that relationship wasn't".

So that's where I ended up with feeling like non-monogamy is for me, but that it was very important to me that I practice in a way that felt compassionate and ethical.

F: What made you think that non-monogamy was for you?

R: Well, I think once I had exited that paradigm of, like: You have to just be with one person and find the one and be with them only till you die" that that was the requirement for having any sort of adult life or being able to make any sort of commitments. Once I saw that wasn't true because we had done so many of those things, lived together, been domestic partners. I'd been a part of his family. In some ways, that really worked for me, and that felt very committed. I realized: "Oh, maybe I don't have to choose between never having novelty again and having a person or people to share my life with".

And it was just so obvious as I went through that journey that I had many more interests and proclivities than I thought. And I was just curious. As an explorer of life, I didn't want to stop finding out more about what turned me on and other people in the world. Knowing them that way and seeing what different dynamics brought out these different sides of me. I think also coming into being bisexual, I didn't want to have to choose between one gender or the other. So I think all those reasons, and it also just naturally began to happen once I did reenter the dating pool a little bit after a period of deliberate celibacy and really self examination that I found, yeah. When I started dating Theo, my current partner, we meet at the end of the book, I had the desire to reconnect with someone else named Asa, and I started seeing them both at once, and they both knew about each other. And I was very upfront with Theo from the beginning of like: This is what I'm going to want. It's allowed to be a conversation. It's okay if it's not what you end up wanting. That doesn't make you weak. But this is probably what I'm going to want, and at least it's what I want right now".

F: Yeah. And another thing that I noticed was you said, after all I went through, I'm not afraid of low key rejection. And I feel the same way. At first, when I was starting to date outside of my relationship, every little rejection or someone taking long to respond a text or whatever would be so painful.Now I'm like: "Whatever". Even in that sense, I think non-monogamy does make you stronger. I think you kind of answered this, but what do you think that you've learned? Or how is non-monogamous Rachel or Rachel today different from Rachel before you started your journey?

R: Yeah, well, I think I have a lot more respect for myself and trust in myself, and part of that is also just probably being in my 30s instead of my 20s, that that's a shift I've seen. Just knowing myself a little better. And also, I think going through the process of writing this book and being in such a tumultuous relationship and getting out of it, even though it was incredibly hard and healing from that on my own, I just was like: "Wow, I'm strong, I'm resilient". And kind of intentionally began to cultivate more practices in my life, like meditation, like self nurturing practices, gratitude practices, all these things that would help support feeling more stable in myself and to try to continue to reinforce a new way of looking at the world, which is that I don't need someone to come and rescue me, that ultimately I'm the only one who can promise to be there for me. And that doesn't mean other people can't help me. They should. And in fact, I find my community of friends only widen and potential people I can love. It only expands. But I think it's coming from a place more now where I'm a little less needy, a little less insecure about my own self worth. And of course, that has its own nice, virtuous cycle of that that's going to be more attractive to people, or at least the type of people that you want to attract in your life. Yeah. I think just seeing a clear sense of my boundaries has also been a nice surprise of once they were so constantly violated and I was so confused over the course of the relationship, what they were, which I try to give resources in the book to people and help figure that out because that always really confused me.

People be like: "Figure out your boundaries". And I was like: "What does that even mean?" I don't know. That's what I'm doing. I don't know. But I found when I was on the other side, maybe because of having some traumatizing things happen, it was more obvious when those were being crossed and I was more able to assert my needs in a kind way but also a firm way.

F: Yeah. Also something I loved was the chapter that's like: "Sometimes the experience is saying no" because I felt very identified, like, I'm also, again, polycurious. I'm very curious in general. So I'd always be like: "Oh, yeah, let's do it". Sometimes the experience is saying no. Sometimes saying no is hard and. And you learn from it. But, like, learning to assert your boundaries is a very important thing to do.

R: Yes. And it takes trial and error. But, yeah, I'm glad that resonated. That was a very important lesson for me to learn that I have to remind myself still, because I still have those tendencies of, like: "I want to know". But when it's at the expense of your well being or your self respect, that's where you probably are actually going to have the more interesting experience in a lot of ways by learning to stand up for that and having an assertion of your boundaries or just being able to abstain, even though it would be interesting because, you know, it's not a good situation for you. That is an interesting journey in itself, honestly.

F: Yeah. And it was your mom, I believe, Who told you that. And it also kind of reminded me of my mom, who's like, I don't know exactly how she says it, but basically she's like: "Have fun". But she doesn't say, not too much fun, but that's kind of the message. Like, have fun, but kind of be mindful. Know that you can say, no. Don't just go for it. Don't be reckless. So, yeah, I think that's also a really great message. I just have one last question that I ask to every guest, which is, what would you tell to a polycurious person that can be someone else or it can be yourself when you were polycurious and starting this journey?

R: Sure. I would say, first of all, good for you. Go for it if you want to explore it. There's nothing wrong with you or weird about having trouble with long term monogamy or it not seeming like an appealing thing. Nothing weird about that at all. People are cheating at higher rates than ever before, and there's plenty of evidence that women especially have difficulty with loss of desire in long term live in partnership. For us in particular, perhaps the psychological aspect of things rather than just physiological, the sense of novelty and adventure is important. And there's nothing wrong with you if you find yourself bored or feeling not entirely fulfilled forever by only touching one person always. So, yeah, I would say go for it. Don't shame yourself, but also do your research. Read books like mine that give you an idea of things not to do, as well as lots of pathways of resources throughout the book and ideas of other books cited throughout.

But you can figure out which other ones you might like to read. Listen to podcasts like this one. I also really like the one Multiamory, I think is very good. And to get a sense of community norms, to have some sort of community around you, even if it's just a Facebook group. So that if you're in the situation and you're not sure if what you're experiencing is abusive or not, that you have other people who are non-monogamous or kinky to ask about it, so that it's an accepting space where, you know, they're not just saying: "Oh, that's bad, just because you're non-monogamous". And then finally I'd say to find a counselor if you can is very important. You need help navigating this. It's very tough, even if you don't struggle a lot with jealousy, it's just tough to do something so different than what society is telling you to do. And a situation that many people feel they have to be in the closet about that in itself is very stressful. So yeah, to have that help, well, you can search for kink friendly professionals online. Those are often people with more experience in non-monogamy. If you can't find someone you can afford as a counselor, there's also a resource called The Network La Red, and they particularly serve like, kinky, polyamorous and queer populations. So that's like a safer space to call as a sort of hotline. If you're not sure if your dynamic is abusive or unhealthy.

F: I'll link it In the show notes. Yeah, those are all amazing tips. Rachel, thank you so much. That's it from me. It was a pleasure to speak with you. I knew you were going to be super smart and knowledgeable about this topic, but definitely exceeded my expectations. So I really appreciate you being here. And yeah, thank you for being part of the podcast.

R: Thank you. Thank you for having me and for engaging so deeply with the book. It means a lot to me. And for this community resource you're providing is, I'm sure, helping a lot of people.

F: That's it for today's episode. Thank you guys so much for listening.