Fernanda: We just kissed, right? And then.

Mariah: Oh, you totally came onto. me, by the way. I remember that.

F: Yeah, I'm pretty sure I was the one who kissed you, but then you were like: "Oh, should we go into the bedroom?" And I'm like: "Okay, sure, let's do it".

Hi, everyone. This is Polycurious, and I am Fernanda, your host. And today is our season finale. But before I start telling you about this episode, I want to ask you a favor. If you haven't yet, can you please. Make sure to subscribe to the podcast now? Is especially important if you don't want to miss out on our next season because it will only come out in a few months. Also, if you haven't followed us on Instagram yet, we have a really cool page with tons of resources, and you can find us at @Polycuriouspodcast.

Now, onto today's episode. In this conversation, Mariah, the occasional co-host of this podcast, and I talk about our relationship. We wanted to put this episode out because we have a very interesting relationship in which we are first and foremost best friends. But we occasionally play and we'll go into detail about how that evolved. I feel like our relationship just goes to show that there really is a spectrum of how you can relate to people and you can make your relationship whatever you want it to be, even if it doesn't fit into the partner or friend category. On the second part of this episode, you also hear an update from us and our journey in our relationships with our partners.

I talk about my relationship with Seth and how in our exploration of non-monogamy, or rather my exploration of non-monogamy, because he's monogamous. So far, we have always taken our time and gone step by step, but lately I kind of took Seth at a place that was a little too fast for him. So we talk about how we approach that challenge by making sure I prioritize our relationship.

Mariah talks about her relationship with James and how their exploration of non-monogamy has been a little difficult for them. But she also tells us about the progress they have made by going to therapy and how they're trying to make their relationship work. In this conversation, we wanted to be as open and vulnerable as many polycurious guests have been, and we hope that you learn from our journey as much as you've learned from their journey.

If you would like some more context about our relationships or the full gossip, I guess I recommend you listen to the last two episodes of the first season.

On episode twelve, I talked to my partner, Seth and on episode 13, I interview Mariah about her relationship with James and her breakup with her previous primary partner. Okay, we have a lot of ground to cover, so we better get started. Here's my conversation with Mariah. So I have the most special guest of them all today. It's not even a guest because she's a host as well. I'm her guest. We're both hosting and

M: Guesting.

F: And guesting. Yeah, Mariah is here with me.

M: And I'm with you, Fernanda. Oh, Fer.

F: Oh, no. Actually, this is a good opportunity to clarify. It's funny because I use Fernanda for the podcast, but then, because my friends listen to the podcast, they're starting to call me Fernanda. So now I started to say, like: "Hi, everyone, welcome to Fer for short". So people can correct themselves and call me Fer again because Fernanda is only my professional name. No, I'm kidding. It just feels a little weird because it's like, you know, Jonathan and John.

M: No one of your friends really called you Fernanda before Polycurious? Like, you always just preferred Fer?

F: There were maybe, like, a couple, but I've always preferred Fer just because that's how everyone has always called me in my family and everything. But anyhow, that's besides the topic. You Polycurious listeners can call me however you want.

M: So I just want to preface this interview with letting you guys know that we are wearing onesies right now. Matching onesies, actually, and they're unicorns.

F: So, yeah, and we are in this magical place called Costume Closet in Bushwick, which is a dollhouse where you make your costume dreams come true. I mean, please, Mariah, give the proper explanation.

M: So what I like to tell people is that we have a underground dollhouse experience here in Bushwick. And, yeah, we do rentals of festival wear and costumes, but not like the normal costumes that you see at Halloween adventure or whatever. We have very festival inspired, bunky vibe type of costumes. So, yeah, if you guys ever want to come by and play dress up. Yeah, it's been a really wonderful new experience. If you listen to the Bushwick Daily bonus episode from season one, I kind of tell a little bit about it, but that's when I really started it. And, yeah, it's just been growing since.

F: That's why you've been a little absent from the podcast. Not completely, because you've been helping out and we've had some interviews, but that's why for the past couple of episodes, we haven't heard from you, because you are thriving with your new adventure. So basically, today we just wanted to chat about our relationship because, you know, a lot of the guests and even the listeners have been really open to us about their journeys, but we haven't really talked about our story yet. So I feel like for those of you who have gotten closer to us through, the podcast will probably be interesting and also for, you know, people who know us. And I don't know if you've gotten this asked, but, you know, what's up with you and Fer? You know, what's up with you and Mariah?

M: Yes, I have, definitely. Or, like, it's funny cause people used to ask, well, when I was dating, Logan assumed that you were our girlfriend or that we were dating. And I mean, definitely at that time it wasn't. And we were like, no, we're just friends.

F: Yeah, but we do have a story around that as well, so maybe let's start with that, actually. Where did we meet?

M: So we met first at a play party.

F: Exactly. Which was my first play party ever.

M: Oh, wait, really?

F: Yeah.

M: I don't know if I remember that.

F: Yeah, I don't know if I ever told you that, but, yeah, it was the first time I went to a play party. Oh, but we met first at the pregame.

F: We met at the pregame, and I didn't see you or I don't remember, but, yeah, we met at a pregame, and I just remember seeing you with your cat suit that then I wore later on that's still probably floating around in this closet.

M: It definitely is.

F: It's such a good one. But, like, catwoman suit. And I just remember being like: "Oh, she's so pretty". Like: "She's so pretty and so hot and, like, so charming". But, like, it was like 2 seconds. Like, hi, this is Mariah. This is Fer. Whatever.

M: Well, I remember what you were wearing, too. Wait, you were wearing the feathers, right, that you just wore recently?

F: I was wearing the feathers that I just wore recently.

M: And I remember the story you told me, and this was like the first conversation we had, basically because I was like: "Oh, I love your feathers".

F: Oh, my God, so many things are coming out. I didn't remember this.

M: This is also four, five years ago.

F: Yeah, four or five years ago.

M: Yeah. So, yeah, you were wearing the feathers. I don't remember what character you were. You were just. Cause it was superheroes. Oh, superheroes and villains.

F: I think I was just on the villain side. I think I was an undefined, feathery birdie villain, so.

M: Oh, yeah. So it had to do with your roommate, I think, at the time, or your ex-roommate had left it behind or lost it. My memory is really bad.

F: The story is better than that, actually. Also a little embarrassing, but here it goes. I'll put it out there. So it was like someone from my master's. He was just a friend, but there had been some flirtation. But we went out one night, and then I just fell asleep. So we actually never had sex or anything, but I stayed at his place, woke up the next morning, and then, I don't know why, I was looking into his closet, and I saw it, and I was like: "Oh, I'm going to a play party and I need an outfit. Can I borrow this?" And he's like: "Yeah", I think that was like, maybe it was a roommate in my head. It was probably a girl that he had slept with or something. That's what went through my head. But actually, now that you say it, probably I just made that up. And the rest. Probably it was a justification.

M: The other girl he's sleeping with.

F: I'll just take this. I mean, yeah, I guess it's worse if I took it from his roommate, right? Anyhow, I never gave it back. Yes. He moved away, and then it just stayed with me forever. Would have probably given it back if he hadn't moved, you know, and I had had the opportunity.

M: Yeah. I mean, he didn't ask for it back, so.

F: Yeah, and it's great. And I just used it, like, I just wore it, like, two weeks ago or something. Okay. Yes. So anyhow, that was our first conversation, and that was it. We didn't see each other at the party. So when I met Mariah, I also met Logan, which was her partner at the time. And Logan stayed in touch with me, and he invited me to yours guys birthday.

M: And I remember it being a little weird for me, for sure. Like, I always liked you, but it was just like our birthday week. Cause Logan and I shared the same birthday week. So we had a joint birthday party at, What is that called? Black Flamingo.

F: Yeah.

M: Is it Black Flamingo?

F: Yeah. But it was kind of weird that I just showed up for your birthday without really knowing you. But also, we didn't really chat much. I think it was later on that. Yeah, Logan invited me to this, like, Neon I FEELs party.

M: Right. And we hosted the pregame at mine.

F: Yeah.

M: Or at ours.

F: The beginnings of the Costume Closet. She was already glamming everyone up and having people over, so. Yeah. So after that party, I wanted to make dinner for you guys because Logan had paid for my ticket for the party. So, like, as a thank you I wanted to, like, make dinner. And, like, this whole time. I mean, now that I think back at it, I'm like, this is pretty obvious, right? Like, we met at a play party. Of course they, They or he are courting me or whatever, you know? Like.

M: Well, we weren't really, though, to be honest, that night. We were both unsure of what that meant, because we're like, does she just wanna come over and cook dinner? Is this a friend thing? Is she interested in us? Cause we hadn't ever, we were just stepping into this world at that time, too, so we had no idea what your intentions were. We didn't talk about them. We were just like, yeah, let's do dinner. Let's have this girl over to our house. We also weren't used to doing things like that before we met this community. Really? So, yeah, we weren't really trying to court you.

F: Oh, okay, great. Then I was reading things right. I was just like, they're nice people, and they invited me to this nice party. I want to say thank you. I'm gonna go and cook for them. And then it was just so easy to talk to you. Like, immediately, I just felt so comfortable. And I was making dinner, and we drank wine, and then we had this moment, which later I come to find out that it was a little awkward or uncomfortable for you.

M: Yeah, I mean, I definitely was jealous, for sure.

F: Yeah. I don't know. I don't know if you want to talk about that, but, I mean, understandably, I feel like I would have felt the same way.

M: Yeah, I think it was after dinner. So you had cooked, and we were, like, helping cook, and we had a really lovely dinner. And then afterwards, like, Logan had offered you a massage, right? But he ended up breaking out, like, the massage table. And you guys are, like, off getting massages with each other in the bedroom, and I was, like, out in the kitchen just, like, cleaning all the dishes and everything. And I just remember being not angry at you or annoyed at you or, like, upset. I was a little jealous because I was, like, feeling like Logan was giving someone else attention that I wanted, and but then, yeah, I was just kind of angry at him. Cause I was like, I'm out here cleaning the dishes.

F: Oh, no. Again, I would have felt the same way. For me, it was just, like, I can't remember how it happened, of course, like, I'm sure that I said yes to the massage.

M: Cause if, you know, Fer, she loves her massages.

F: Exactly. So I'm sure that, you know, I had to do with it. But, like, I think even though, for us, that night was like, oh, you know, like, whatever. We're just friends. I think he was actually trying maybe to get things going. I don't know.

M: Yeah.

F: But anyhow, like, nothing ever happened between us three or between me and Logan. And actually, like, we just transitioned into friendship for a long time. And then I remember this was Burlesquerade. I think it was.

M: The after party.

F: It was 2019. So this is, like, two years after our friendship at the after party. I don't even know how, but we were talking, and then you confessed that you had a crush on me at the beginning of our relationship, right?

M: Yeah. Yeah. I always had, like, a little crush on you, especially from the beginning. Like, even though I got, like, jealous at one time or whatever, like, we had grown such a beautiful friendship in between that time and, like, just getting to know you, and, and I also had never, like, had crushes on girls before, really. And, you know, stepping into this world for me was also stepping into really accepting me, wanting to explore potential relationships or hooking up with women and all of that. So I remember feeling very predatorial in a way. I know now that that's not what it was and definitely not how I act ever, but.

F: No, not at all. I was so surprised when you told me.

M: Yeah. Because I always do believe in friends first. If a relationship changes, that doesn't mean that friendship shouldn't exist anymore. And if one party is not as interested, then that also doesn't mean that you can't be friends, you know? So. Yeah, so I was always happy being platonic with you, but, yeah, I remember telling you that I had a little crush on you, and I didn't know how to tell you and that I remember telling you I also felt awkward hugging you or touching you because I didn't know how to handle that or if I was being predatorial or things like that or if you felt like I wasn't being platonic when you wanted that. So. Yeah, that was a hard conversation. Or hard for me to say, for sure.

F: Yeah. Well, I appreciated your honesty after two years. No, I was just surprised. And I remember being like, I mean, I think you're gorgeous. This actually reminds me of our episode with Queer Dating Coach Ariella. I don't know what number, but this season, when she says, you know, you shouldn't ask people, are you gay? You should ask people, are you into me? Right, right. Because at that point, I had explored with women a little bit, but just barely, like, at play parties or whatever.

M: Well, and I remember you telling me previously that you were not bi necessarily, that you would maybe hook up with a girl, but it wasn't something that really interested you at the time. You weren't really exploring it as much rather than just if it happened in a threesome or something like that.

F: Yeah. And I still feel somewhat that way. Not completely. I've had moments with women only that have been good. But I prefer it when there's a man around, which, you know, it's kind of sad in a way because it's a reflection of, you know, just our sexual culture. Like, our culture around, like, threesomes and all of that. But, I mean, I think also just the fact that I'm more hetero than gay. Yeah.

M: Yeah. I also, like, in addition to the whole society thing, I think there is just something about penetration. I know that there's toys and everything, too, but I think that there is something about that I enjoy and I like to have a man around. It's that penetration aspect.

F: Yeah. For me, it's more the force, maybe the aggressiveness or something, because I like penetration, but it's not my favorite thing that you can do. But, you know, even if it's just, like, fingering or whatever, some strength is needed on some. Some aggressiveness or whatever. I'm into that anyhow. Anyhow, so. Yeah, so when you told me that, I was like: 2Oh, well, you're gorgeous. And, yes, I'm not bisexual, but I am interested in exploring women". And I was almost like: "Oh, did I miss my chance?" You know? Or, like, at least I thought that. But then at that point, we had already established our friendship, and then this was actually. Was it during the pandemic? No, no, it was before the pandemic. Yeah, I.

M: Wait, which. What?

F: When we hooked up for the first time, I had been watching Euphoria. So I guess I had the, you know, the lesbian sex in my mind. And then, I mean, I didn't expect it to happen, though. I think we were just drinking. Were we watching Euphoria? I don't think so. We were just drinking at my place. I don't know why Seth wasn't around.

M: He was out of town, I think. That weekend or something.

F: Yeah. And we just kissed. Right? And then.

M: Oh, you totally came on to me, by the way. I remember that.

F: Yeah, I'm pretty sure I was the one who kissed you. But then you were like: "Oh, should we, like, go into the bedroom?" And I'm like: "Okay, sure, let's do it". Yeah. And that was kind of fun, you know, I remember it, like, being, like: "Hmm. How am I gonna tell this to Seth?" Like, not that. Oh, and you were worried that Seth was gonna have an issue with it. You were really worried. Like, Seth didn't have an issue at all. He was just, like, surprised. Like: "Okay, interesting". And I'm like: "Yeah, but what do you think?" And I think he was like: "Well, you know, that's just, like, not the way I relate to my friends", but, yeah, I mean, I think at that point, we were both very new in our exploration with women, even though it wasn't that long ago. It was maybe, like, three years ago, but, yeah, then after that, again, like, months, maybe a year passed.

M: It was definitely a long time in between. Like, we hadn't hooked up again. It was definitely here. And I remember it was while I was dating James, and James was like: "Oh, you totally have a crush on Fer". And we were talking about that, and I was like: "I mean, I love Fer, and we have hooked up", but I wasn't in the crushing phase anymore. Cause I just. I've grown to love you. And so I was like, we hang out all the time, like, we're not gonna hook up. Or I said, we might, but I highly doubt it. Cause it always catches me by surprise when it happens. But, yeah. And then we were here, and I remember. I think it just, like, it wasn't as much, but, yeah, it definitely happened here. I remember that after that, we finally had a threesome because we had talked about having a threesome for a while. And we tried so. Or you tried so hard to make it happen, and I was like: "I mean, I'm busy", or, like, I always had something going on.

F: Yeah. And then on your birthday, which, I mean, that whole party was like a surprise for me because I was coming from another party, and I was tired. And I remember I was in the car with a friend, and I told him, I'm just gonna say hi, and, like, I'm gonna go. Next thing I know, I don't even know how, but it's, like, 09:00 a.m. In the morning, and I'm still there, and we're, like, all dancing in the basement. I feel like your party had two parties.

Like, totally, like, when everyone was there, and then when everyone left and the smaller group was there, and then that's when the real party started. But I remember that night James kissed me, and I was like: "Oh, does Mariah know about this?" Or, like: "Is this okay with her?" Or whatever? And he said, like: "Yes, we've talked about this" or something. And I was like: "Okay. Well, sure", you know? Yeah. And, I mean, like, I was never super attracted to James, but I was like: "Oh, I've been wanting a threesome with Mariah for a while. I'm h**** right now. This kiss is feeling good. Why not? sure". But then it was, like, so late, and I don't know what the conversation was on your side or how he approached it with you?

M: It was more of just, like, a generic, like, that night and, like, that time of our relationship, I was okay with him, like, kissing other women. And I think he actually did come up to me, was like: "I just kissed Fer. Is that okay?" It was already okay. But I think that then he felt guilty about it a little bit and was like: "Oh, gosh, did I just do something wrong?" And came to find me and was like: "Is that okay?" And I was like: "Yeah, that's fine". So it was cute.

F: Yeah. But then it was so late, and we were like: "Okay, are we actually doing this?" And I remember being like: "Guys, I do want to have sex with you, but, like, I'm so tired, so if we're gonna do it, let's just do it now". But we pushed through.

M: We did.

F: And it was just fun. It was really fun. It was mostly you and I and you and James that time. Like, it was play more than, you know, full on penetration. For me, at least.

M: It was just very safe and, like, cozy and comfortable. Cause we were all so tired. Like it was the end of a rager. Yeah, but it was cute because it was so easy for you to not be jealous. You know, I was being careful, but I also knew that you felt really safe with me. Obviously, I would never.

M: And I know. That you wouldn't ever do anything to harm me intentionally, too. And then if something was ever uncomfortable between us, we would just talk about it.

F: Yeah.

M: Yeah.

M: And that solves everything.

F: Yeah. So. Yep. So it was your 30th birthday, your first threesome.

M: Yes. I just remember, like, the week after, I was just on cloud nine about it, too. And I was just like: "I had my first threesome". I mean, I've been in, or I always have to, like, preface people with, I mean, I've been in orgies before, but I've never been in a threesome.

And that was just really exciting for me because it does feel a lot more intimate to me. And I think because it created such a safe space that then opened the door for me and James to have, like, a threesome with someone else later and, like, be able to kind of explore and play with other people that I didn't know as well. I think that experience allowed me to then open up to more.

F: Yeah, yeah, it was nice. It was fun. And also just the fact that it was, like, spontaneous. And obviously, Seth wasn't that happy about it because, you know, normally I give him a heads up, and this time I couldn't because I didn't know it was gonna happen.

M: But it tends to be our mo.

F: Yeah, he was eventually okay with what happened. Once we talked about it, he would just appreciate it if I gave him a heads up when I have sex with someone. So that was also a lesson for me to make sure that even if I think there might be a somewhat spontaneous situation, I kind of tell Seth, like: "Oh, this might happen", or maybe before I go and do it, you know, check in with him or whatever. Although, of course, I wasn't going to text him at 09:00 a.m. In the morning: "Hey, babe". I knew he was fine with you and I hooking up, and I knew that he wouldn't feel threatened by James or anything, so that's also why I really didn't think that it would be an issue, but it was a lesson for me. So, yeah, I guess all of this to say that, I guess our relationship is very unique and fluid and kind of. Yeah, mostly friends who occasionally hook up for fun. And the times we've had sex or, like, not even had sex, but, like, played. The times that we've played are, like, maybe five or something in our five year relationship. So maybe it's, like, a once a year kind of thing. Although I guess we had another couple of experiences not too long ago, I guess a few months ago, but they were again after a festival when the sexual energy is high and we might hook up again. We might not. But if we do, it would probably be just the two of us. Because even though I did enjoy the experience we had with James, feel like at this point, you guys are going through your own process, and I was always more focused on you anyway. So I don't feel like I need or necessarily want to get involved in your dynamic at this point.

And we'll get to talk about, you know, what your situation is right now at some point today. But, yeah, all of this to say that, you know, relationships are. It's hard to put them in a box, and ours is just kind of what it is, and it's. I mean, obviously, we have, like, such a beautiful friendship, and I'm so grateful for that.

M: Yeah, same. I mean, I was just telling you yesterday, like, how much I appreciate you as a friend because, like, you are just always there for me, and you always have my best interests in mind. And I really appreciate you sometimes telling me things that are hard to hear, you know? And that's what, like, a real friend does. And even still, like, I feel so comfortable and safe to talk to you and tell you what's going on in my life. And I just appreciate you always making that space for me.

F: Hmm. Thank you, love. Yeah, of course. And, yeah, you do the same for me. I feel like again, ever since I met you, I just felt so comfortable, and I felt like I could tell you anything.

M: And we had our soul sister trip.

F: All right, we did mushrooms.

F: Hey, girl. I've, like, taken you in a lot of adventures.

M: Yes, you have.

F: First threesome, first mushroom trip, first Burning Man.

M: Yes. See, I just feel so safe with you.

F: So, yeah, we had a mushroom trip at some point in our friendship, and we realized we were soul sisters.

M: And that's when our real friendship started. I feel like.

F: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, you know, I feel like you are always listening to what I have to say, caring for me, and just, like, always down for adventures of all types, whether it's sexual or whether it's like, go and get a smoothie. Yeah. Or putting our onesies on and walking around the forest, or crafting.

M: Oh, I wish we had the poem. I could read it to you.

F: Oh, yeah. But I can add it. We can add it and maybe you can recite it. Yeah. Like, I'll just have you record it or something.

M: Perfect.

F: Yeah. My birthday weekend was a couple of weeks ago, and we did a poem exchange.

M: It was such a beautiful activity to do on a getaway weekend or just, like, at a gathering of any sort. I highly recommend it, but continue.

F: Yeah. It's basically a poem exchange. I based it on a tradition called Sinterklaas, which is from the Netherlands and totally culturally appropriated it because I just made it my own. But I just wanted to do the poem exchange because I've done it with my family and I wanted to do it with my friends. We went in this, we were in this farmhouse, 15 people, and decorated the poems. And then we all read them out loud for one another.

M: Each person got a random and I got Fer.

F: Oh, yeah. And Mariah got me. So here's a poem.

M: Two soul sisters on an adventure. We always find ways to play, whether it's frolicking in the woods or making mermaids on crafting day. Together we are changing the world one poly curious person at a time. And for me, you've changed my life by supporting me and being so kind when us shorties are wandering around, I am mistaken as your clone, which is one of the greatest compliments. You're my rock, and I'm your gemstone.

F: So, yeah. So that encapsulates our relationship, especially that last part. You are my rock, and I'm your gemstone. I was melting. I was crying. But, yeah, it's, like, so true. I feel like, you know, you always help me with my outfits or with whatever I need, and you're also my rock, you know? But I'm your rock in the way that you spoke about before being there for you. So it was really touching.

M: I'm definitely your gemstone.

F: So good. The other part of the episode, we just wanted to kind of update you of where we're at. Where am I? So I feel like in my journey with non-monogamy, what often happens to me is that I meet someone and I get really excited, and then after a few days, I kind of get a little disillusioned or the infatuation kind of comes down. So after that happened a few times, I decided to keep things very casual and very open and serial attachment, and that's kind of the approach that I've taken. And then, yeah. I recently went on a trip to Peru a month ago, and I drank ayahuasca, which, for those of you who might not know, is plant medicine, very strong, and a lot of indigenous cultures use it for therapeutic purposes, and it's kind of picking up in the west, and people are also doing it here. I went all the way to Peru, but there's ayahuasca retreats all around.

I wouldn't just recommend it to anyone. I think that it's very important to do your research, and I think especially if you have some history of, like, psychosis or other types of, like, mental illness is not recommended. But for me, even though it wasn't at all the experience that I thought it would be, because a lot of people get a lot of visuals and have sort of, like, an out of body kind of other dimension experience, for me, it was very much in the room, but I just had a lot of realizations, and I kind of came back thinking, like: "Okay, I'm gonna clear my plate from dating", even though I hadn't been dating that much, because, I don't know, just life gets in the way.

But it was, like, roughly, like, maybe once every couple of weeks. So after I came back, I was like: "Okay, I think that I'm ready to kind of take it easy". But then there was someone that I kind of had a little crush on, and he kind of, like, came around right when I was ready to stop seeing other people or, like, at least take a little break from that and just focus on myself. Not for any particular reason that there was anything wrong with, like, my dating life or whatever, but it just felt like it was consuming a lot of my time, like, planning dates or planning seeing people or texting with people or just mental space that I felt like, you know, unless it was, like, really worth it. I needed to save that time. But then this person kind of came around, and then we've been seeing each other, and it's been really nice. Also, more generally, in terms of, like, the lessons that I've learned. And this is also something that I've mentioned before, I think also on Ariella's episode with the Queer Dating Coach, I made this, like, four date rule, which, because I get really excited about people, and then I start getting worried: "Oh, what if, like, I want to go on a trip with them and Seth, it's not okay with it", or, like, whatever, and then, like, next day, well.

M: It was like you would go on, like, another date with them or something and then realize, like: "Oh, this isn't what I thought it was. I'm not really that into them".

F: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. It's just like a normal, you know, first excitement when you meet someone. Even if I continue singing those people, the infatuation or the excitement is just not the same. So then it switches to a friends with benefits type of situation if I continue seeing them, or I might not continue seeing them, you know?

M: Yeah. And also, I think a lot of times when you and, like, me in the past do. And I think a lot of people in our community is like, we're going to a party and it's, like, highly active or, you know, somewhat sexy. There's so many things that are at play, you know, possibly on Molly, you know, whatever, that just play into infatuation. Yeah. So it makes sense that magic kind of dies off.

F: Of course. And that's another thing that I've learned. Like, if I meet someone at a party already, the atmosphere is gonna make it different. If I'm at a party and I'm on drugs, then, you know, I can't really take seriously my feelings for people. I can enjoy them and I can all of those things. So I came up with that rule for myself, the fourth date rule, you know, I won't take myself too seriously. And my feelings with people, it doesn't mean that after the fourth date, I decide if I continue seeing them or not. It just means that.

M: You've given yourself some time to, like, actually get to know someone a little bit.

F: Yeah, exactly. Before I, like, believe that whatever feelings I'm having for that person are based on that person and not based on my idealized image of that person. Right. Yeah, but, yeah, with this person I'm seeing, we've already had a few dates. I'd say probably six or seven or something like that. My bubble hasn't burst, and I'm still very much into him. And, yeah, I wonder if this is going to be different. But again, I say this every single, like, well, I've stopped. But, I mean, you've seen me like, Mariah. You've seen me like, I called Mariah, like: "Oh, my God, I met this guy and blah, blah, blah and this and that, blah, blah, blah". And then, you know, a couple of weeks later, I'm just like: "Actually, no, I don't know. I just don't feel the same way, or."

M: But it's funny, too, because, like, a lot of times, too, you're like: "I wonder if he likes me the same way. Or like..."

F: Yeah, no, I'm like, I'm like: "I think that this time is different". Like, how many times I've been, like: "I think that this time is different". You know, so, like.

M: So many times.

F: But I've stopped because I've learned. And, like, so I'm like, I've been very careful. Careful to not take my feelings too seriously, to not say, like, maybe this time will be different, but this sometimes. But maybe the same will be different, you know? So.

M: At least you're saying maybe not that you think it is the difference.

F: Yeah, maybe this time. Exactly. So maybe this time will be different.

M: It always can be different. And where is Seth at right now, too? Maybe. As far as what he's feeling about your exploration?

F: Yeah. It's been interesting because I think that for a while, I wasn't really dating, or if I dated, it was different people once a month, something like that. And then all of a sudden, I've been seeing this new person twice a week or so. And I think that it was quite a bit for Seth, and I could tell, but I would always check in with him: "Hey, is it okay if this person joins?"

Because a lot of these hangouts haven't been just one on one. They've been in group settings. And Seth would always say: "Yes, of course, it's fine". So I just took that by face value, but at the same time, I realized that it was maybe a bit much for him because there was especially one weekend where I kind of was out a lot with this other person, and it just happened to be that Seth was home that whole weekend, and it just felt imbalanced, not just for him, but for me as well. But we hadn't really talked about that until recently, when I was again checking in with him. And then he expressed that I had kind of taken him to a rhythm that was too fast to what he's used to, which I totally understand, because, again, I went from dating once a month to seeing this person twice a week. So I apologize. And immediately recognized that I hadn't been prioritizing my relationship with Seth as much.

I was like, I didn't fully realize because you always said it was fine. And what Seth expressed was that he's not going to tell me what to do, which I found really admirable. Like, even if he's not 100% comfortable, he wants me to do what I want to do. He was like: "You can make your own decisions, and it's on you to prioritize our relationship. I'm not going to tell you". If you ask me, like, I asked him if I could have breakfast with this person after I had already spent all weekend with him. And Seth was like: "Yeah, of course", but I was home pretty late. And, you know, in my head, if Seth says it's fine, then it's fine. But actually, I have to be the one who needs to be like: "Okay, no, I've left him all weekend. It's time to go home", and I have to make those decisions. And I'm not saying this is every relationship, because other relationships have that partner who tells you: "Okay, this is enough". But it just kind of put in perspective the type of relationship I have in which he trusts me to make my own decisions, and I just have to make the best decisions. So the changes are simply taking a step back and taking it slower.

Seth is not telling me I cannot see this person. He's just telling me, this has been too much, too fast, and I need you to step back for a little bit until we kind of recalibrate. But even just having that conversation, although I felt guilty because I felt like I hadn't been honoring my relationship, I also felt really proud of my relationship with Seth because we have really great communication, and I can really tell that we look out for one another. And it was a really quick and easy conversation, and it's a really quick and easy fix. Okay, I won't see this person as much for a little bit and until we recalibrate. So that's what I've been doing, kind of stepping back a little bit from that.

M: I love the word recalibration. That's so important because it's always changing. And I really do respect where both of you stand, really. But on Seth's side, because I'm just hearing this again from you, but I really do appreciate how he is still allowing your freedom, but also by saying that you can make your own decisions, this is also on you to make that decision. But this is how I'm feeling right now, and I need more prioritization from you. That's hard for a lot of people to do. And I think that, again, it just shows that your relationship, it's super compatible because you can communicate in that way.

F: Yeah. And it just shows that Seth is just incredible. There's very few people who are able to get that balance right. So listeners, go and listen to our episode with Seth. Honestly, the reason why I put that episode out there is because I want more Seths in the world. So I'll link all of the episodes mentioned in the show notes.

M: It's a really great one, by the way, I really loved that episode so much.

F: Aw, thank you.

M: Just, like, coming from him, too, and just really hearing his side of the story, because I always hear it through you. And that intimate conversation that you had with each other was just really wonderful for me to hear. And I just think that I'm really proud of Seth, too, of how he's handled the differences in your relationship and how you guys see polyamory or non-monogamy.

F: I know. Seth is so great. I'm constantly impressed by him, his ability to be selfless and to really care for me and for what I want and also to ask for what he wants, because I feel like some people might think that he's just, like, letting me do whatever I want to do, and that's it. But he does tell me when he wants something or when he needs something, he does step up, and it's like: "No, babe, I want you to prioritize me in this way" or whatever it is. And he's really good at setting fair boundaries, too.

M: One of my favorites that he said during that episode was that he needs a certain amount of time to process things or a new change in your relationship. So whether it is like: "Oh, you can go out once a week or whatever the role was at the time, and I need, like, a month to". Adjust to this.

F: Yeah, exactly. Like, let's try this thing for a while, and then once I get comfortable, then we can move on to the other step and really giving himself time to get there.

M: And he makes those requests, too. Like, he's like: This is what I need right now. This is what I am comfortable with, and it is pushing me a little bit, but I'm comfortable with this push".

F: Yeah, it's always a conversation. But what has also been interesting for me, and I guess why I wanted to talk about this in the podcast is because right, the podcast is called Polycurious. Right? And it's called Polycurious because I'm curious about polyamory. Right? Even though I'm non-monogamous, I don't consider myself polyamorous. But this is the most serious thing that I've had, or the most frequent thing that I've had, that it's the closest I've been to polyamory. And I'm already realizing how difficult it is to have two boyfriends with which I've always said that that's not what I want. Seeing two people every week, more than once a week, that's a lot. So, yeah, I mean, I'm not saying I'm not going to do it. We'll see. We'll fill it out. Maybe once a week is what works.

M: The right recipe. Or maybe things with this person I'm seeing will fizzle out. We really never know what's going to happen, but it's been very interesting for me to, to realize how easy and complicated it can be at the same time.

M: Yeah, I totally get that.

F: Yeah. I mean, you had that when you were dating Logan and James at the same time.

M: Yeah. I mean, yes. Easy and complicated. It was easy. I don't know. It was easy to fall for James.

F: But Logan wasn't asking, and that was the issue. And that's also what you ended up breaking.

M: But it was difficult. Yeah. It was difficult in that way where he was not able to tell me what his needs were in a healthy way. So I was just gallivanting around, doing whatever I wanted, feeling like I could literally do whatever I wanted. And that freedom felt great, but it also did leave some sort of emptiness to me in our relationship of feeling like there was a disconnect between my primary, myself. So, yeah.

F: Yeah. Again, it's at least in the little I've experienced, it's just very hard to give the proper attention to more than one person. I know a lot of people do it successfully. I'm not saying you can't. And if you're polyamorous and have two, three, four partners, I admire you for that, actually. I just. I'm just finding it personally, from a time, an energy perspective, difficult. Yeah. So that's me. So why don't you tell us, Mariah, where you're at in your journey?

M: Yeah. So, James, I are in a very different place. We have actually been struggling quite a bit. And you know, where we are currently, as far as our non-monogamous journey is, we consider ourselves monogamish. I have the ability to flirt and date other women. I can date them on my own. I haven't really taken advantage of that because I'm not necessarily in the mood for that right now because I am focusing so much on the relationship and making that better. But also, Costume Closet is my baby, and it requires a lot of attention, so. But, yeah, so we're still kind of open to possibilities. And eventually, I think that we would like to get to a place where we feel like we could explore a relationship with someone else, another woman. But I'm not comfortable with him dating someone on his own.

F: Right. But also, he is not comfortable with you dating other people.

M: Oh, he's comfortable with me dating women. He's not comfortable with me dating men. I have agreed to no longer sleep with or date men. And the transition from that has been fine. I agreed to that from the very beginning. But even still, it has caused a lot of issues, because I think that James doesn't see that that is an actual transition that's able to happen. I think he's constantly worried that I'm going to want that again one day.

F: And when you mean the transition is the transition from being polyamorous or non-monogamous, more generally, to being monogamous with him, with the exception of women. But, I mean, right now, you're not doing that, so right now you're monogamous. Yeah.

M: Right, right. I mean, but again, we, like, go to parties and, like, sometimes we make out with women, and I will, or he will or the three of us. Well, whatever. Like, that happened at your birthday weekend. I mean, your birthday weekend was a really nice, safe space for us to really kind of get into that realm, because even that night, I remember getting massaged by another guy there, and that was completely fine. And in normal cases, it is much more of a tense issue when things like that come up. It's been difficult, really, and it's been difficult from the start. Once we started falling in love with each other, I think that that's when James started feeling a lot of jealousy, anger, and distrust. You know, I think he has a hard time trusting that I can make the right decision in a lot of ways. And that's really affected our relationship even more as it's gone on, because it's a recurring issue that we've been having.

I think the biggest hurdle that we have right now is the view of platonic relationships, because although I have agreed that I would not have sexual or romantic relationships with men, I still health find it very important to have meaningful relationships, friendships with men as well. And I've really had to fight for the relationships that I currently have in my life. You know, some of my best friends are guys, and I had to fight to keep it that way, you know. Right.

F: Because James wouldn't be comfortable sometimes with you having platonic or friend relationships with them because he would think that they were more than that, that there was some sexual interest in either side.

M: Yeah. And I can understand that fear. You know, I think it's a very common thing. I think we talk about jealousy a lot on this podcast that a lot of people experience it. But I think the biggest issue is the trust that you have in a partner of being able to be like: "Okay, she's saying it's platonic, it's just platonic". You know, I am very much a person that, again, like I said earlier, friends first. And that's always the case with me. And so I don't expect anything. I don't look for anything of that nature. And when I decide that, okay, this is no longer a thing, I can just switch. And even someone that I previously may have been interested in, I can have a platonic relationship. So he has a hard time understanding that or believing that to be true.

F: Yeah. And I think that what has also made it hard for you is that at some point, it doesn't really depend on you, because you are just having a conversation with a guy. And if in the past, you had a fling with the guy or the guy likes you, which are two things that you cannot control at this very moment, that can be an issue with James, even if you don't do anything. And, of course, if, like, there's a massage, something like that is normally an issue. I'm glad that it wasn't an issue during my birthday, but I also kind of had to talk to James before my birthday because I knew there was gonna be a lot of, like, intimate settings. You know, we were, like, wearing comfy, sexy clothes and had a cuddle puddle. And as you mentioned, you guys were making out with a friend, and there were massages and all of that. And I knew that normally when those situations happen in other settings, sometimes that can be an issue.

So I kind of, like, talked to James and I was like: "Listen, I want to make sure that we're only bringing good vibes to the birthday weekend", which I'm glad that I had that conversation with him because I also felt like I needed to say something because we hadn't really talked about how I felt about his behavior. And it makes me feel like he's restricting you even though you are not crossing any boundaries, you are being respectful, you are being monogamous, you are not doing the things that would merit a reaction, like the reactions that he has sometimes. And I know that he knows this, which is, I'm sure that you talk about this. I know that he wishes that he would react differently and that he's working on it, but that doesn't mean that I can be comfortable with that.

M: Well, I think it's also about you creating a safe space, and I'm glad you did it, too, because I feel like it did affect the way that he kind of approached the weekend and had to kind of keep checking in with himself. But, yeah, I think on the lines of kind of what you were saying about the restrictions and all of that, I think that's one of my biggest fears right now. And especially, you know, we have people all the time that say that they can't be on Polycurious because they're not in a great place in their relationship right now and they don't want to necessarily, like, bring that in. And, you know, that's definitely where we're at. But we are trying, and we're going to keep trying. But, yeah, I think one of my biggest fears right now is that that tightness of restrictions, those boundaries continuously getting smaller is not something that I want. You know, I've agreed to the boundaries we put in place, and those don't seem to be enough sometimes. And that's why I'm worried that if I continue to let them get smaller that I'm going to not be my normal self anymore. You know, I'm still learning in the process as well, and I'm not perfect, but I think that, you know, we both just have a lot of work to do in this realm.

F: Right. Because that's another thing for context for the listeners. You had a partner when you started dating James. So when you started dating James, there was no boundary of you not being able to see other people. That boundary came early in your relationship with him. Actually, before you even broke up with Logan, you guys decided that you wouldn't see other people.

M: Other men,

F: Other men, as you were, like, establishing the basis of your relationship. But then, ever since you had some experiences with women, you had someone that you were seeing more regularly. That ended partly because of what we're talking about. Right? So why don't you tell us about that?

M: Right. So, I mean, I guess that's why I say I'm not necessarily comfortable with us exploring even a relationship with women is because I do feel like that third person is important and that we have to be considerate of their wants and needs. And, yeah, the situation that happened was this girl that we had met, and her and I hit it off right away, and it was really kind of the first time that I felt connected in a more romantic way. And we saw her at a party again, and we were, like, kind of attached to the hip pretty much the entire party. And, yeah, we ended up having a date after that, and it was wonderful. You know, I had butterflies. Like, it was a whole thing that I had not experienced.

F: Having a date with James as well.

M: Oh, with James as well. Yes. And so this is the first date that I've had with another partner and another person. We had dinner first. We went back to James's place, which is always, like, the best mood ever, and we had an amazing threesome, and we connected a lot after that, too, and texted back and forth. But the start to the end, I guess, was when James went to Elements, which is a festival nearby, and I decided to stay back to work on Costume Closet because I was just kicking it off. Yeah. And I was feeling a little weird about it because, you know, we weren't gonna have a lot of communication during.

I knew that he was going to be seeing this girl there as well, which we were trying to develop a relationship. We were trying to date. So I was open to it, but, you know, it was a little weird for me. So they went, and James came back, and he was actually really proud of himself because I guess they had spent some time together. They had a lovely time. But then afterwards, she had met someone there that she really connected with and spent more time with, and James kind of accidentally found them after they had hooked up, and he was just glad that he was able to support them and be there and be present and not make a big deal out of it. But then when he came back and we kind of talked about it, it was fine. But then he ended up finding out that me and this guy that she was interested in actually knew each other and that we had been talking over Instagram or whatever, which to me, it was nothing. You know, we were just catching up after.

F: Just friends.

M: Yeah, we were just friends. Yeah. He was upset to find out that we were having a conversation. I think he just thought that, and he always does, of these texting or conversations or whatever, like that it means that we're flirting or. I'm not sure. Cause I don't think that way, so it's very hard for me to put a pin on it. But he just.

F: He feels uncomfortable with you texting other men?

M: Yeah. Yeah. I think he just. In his mind, he thinks it means something different than it does. I don't think that he necessarily believes that platonic relationships between men and women can exist. So it's really hard for me when we talk about these kind of things. Cause it is just friends to me, you know? And unfortunately, he doesn't see it from that place, but he ended up blowing up on me about it, and that really turned me off from being able to be okay with not just this particular girl, but more about having outside relationships or outside experiences, because I felt like I was being punished for something, that I did nothing wrong, you know? So we did end up having, like, a couple instances after that that were still lovely, but I definitely kind of pushed away from that and let that fizzle out naturally. I also kind of blamed it on being busy, which I also was. So there was also that aspect. But, yeah, it's just. It's been hard to come back from that and feel like I want to explore, because I don't want to take in repercussions in a way.

F: Right. Because even without exploring, you sometimes get repercussions. I mean, even with the with the women stuff, I know you have that freedom to date women independently, but there's also been instances where James has become jealous of you connecting with other women. So I feel like you have that option to be open, but doesn't seem like James is really ready to do that.

M: Yeah. And I think that that is from the past, though. I think we've come a long way from that. I've had to fight for a lot of my relationships with men, and I think I've made it a very important thing, especially to some of my best friends and all of that. But I think he's just learning to accept that conversations don't mean anything, even if they're one on one. I don't have to defend myself as much.

And we have made a lot of advances, not as fast as I would like, but, you know, we have made a lot of changes that have made me more comfortable, but it's more about, like, where do I want to focus energy? And because I don't necessarily feel 100% safe to explore, it doesn't seem worth it to me sometimes to even step in that direction. You know, I know it's something that he wants to explore and that we would like to explore together, but I think I'm holding us back in a way from that based off of past experiences. So, yeah, I mean, this sounds like a really downer honor relationship, and again, it's very hard to have this conversation, but, you know, not all relationships are good all the time, and sometimes there's a lot of work to do, but I really do hope that things work out, even if things are not as good right now or sometimes it seems a little impossible.

I also understand we have a lot that we put on our plates. We're both very passionate and loving and hard headed people. But, you know, we have been working through a lot of this for a long time, for our entire relationship, really. But, you know, going through couples therapy has been very, very helpful, and the progress that I've seen with going through that has been the biggest progress I've seen yet in a much quicker amount of time. So I highly recommend it. And, you know, it's. Things are very much up in the air right now. You know, I've broken up with him before, and it's hard to say if it'll happen again or not. I hope it doesn't, but I'm rooting for us. And, yeah, I do love him very, very much and hope that we can turn things around. I think that we have a very, very special relationship. I think that we share so many interests, and we do lift each other up in a lot of different ways.

We just gotta find the middle ground and the compromise that both of us are comfortable with. So lots to be learned. We're all still learning, and, yeah, that's where I'm at.

F: Okay, well, I think that we've talked a lot about a lot of things. I'm glad we did this, because I feel like we're letting the listeners get to know us a little better and hopefully learn from our experiences and what we shared. So, yeah, this is the last episode of the second season. Very excited about all the stories that are coming up next season. But, yeah, I mean, should we say, what would we tell to a polycurious person? Should we do that?

M: Yeah, of course, that's always the question. What I always try to tell myself is that mistakes are going to happen and that it's okay as long as you learn from them and you're open to work on them. Everything is a process. Life is a process. So it's good to just be kind to yourself and to everyone who is going through things. We all go through our things, so just be kind to each other and forgive yourself.

F: Yeah, I like that. I think that, I'm not sure if that's something that, yeah, I guess I would tell to a polycurious person because I'm polycurious. And maybe this is, like, the message that I want to hear right now, but one of the things that I've been reflecting on a lot lately is the value of staying present and not putting too much weight on your feelings for other people. Of course, like cherishing them and enjoying them and all of that. But just kind of letting things develop in a way that's organic and with communication and, you know, just trying not to get too much into your head about things.

Don't try to, like, think too much about the past or the future, but just do the things that feel right to you and to your partners or the people you are dating and just continue to communicate throughout the process and know that things change and that the only thing that really matters is the present moment. So. Yeah.

M: Love that.

F: Yeah. So with that, thank you, guys.

M: And thank you so much for another incredible season. To everybody who's listening, to everyone who was involved in sharing their stories, it is a very vulnerable thing to get in front of a mic and, you know, share what you're going through, but it's really incredible and I appreciate all of you.

F: That's it for the second season of Polycurious. I am so curious to hear what you thought about this episode, so please don't hesitate to reach out.