Alan: Watching your partner fall in love. That can be very hard. But it's also super beautiful and you can gain such just joy in seeing your partner being so happy. That person can bring crazy fun things into your life. They could be an awesome cook. We could all hang out, play games.

Fernanda: You mean the person, that person that.

A & Fernanda: She's falling in love with?

F: Yeah.

Taylor: They can also suck.

A: They can also suck.

F: Hi everyone, welcome to the third season of Polycurious. You have no idea how excited I am to be back. The interviews this season were recorded quite a while back, some of them over half a year ago. So I couldn't wait to finally get these stories out, but I had to take a pause to work on Monocurious, which I invite you to listen to if you havent already. Its a mini series that came right before this episode and I have also been busy training to become a relationship coach. So before I start telling you about our wonderful guest today, I wanted to announce that I am officially taking clients for coaching. This podcast, as you can imagine, has encouraged a lot of people to come up to me asking for advice in their non monogamous journey. Because of course, we live in a society where we were never taught how to do this right.

So I felt like I wanted to take this a little bit more seriously and actually study to better serve you. For example, you might want one version of non-monogamy and your partner might want something different. Or you might feel like you are having issues with communication and setting boundaries. Whatever the case might be. If you feel like you might need some help getting to where you want to be, either on your own or with your partner or partners, please send me an email at polycuriouspodcast@gmail.com or reach out to me through our instagram Polycurious Podcast to set up an initial free consultation.

Ok, now let me tell you about today's episode, which I truly loved. Mariah and I spoke to Taylor and Alan, who both identify as solo poly and nonhierarchical, even though they have been together for over four years, probably five years at this point. And before they met, they had individually followed unconventional paths. They both had their first threesome when they were teenagers and have since learned and grown so much from living open lifestyles. And today they share all of that wisdom. They tell us about their experiences seeing each other, falling in love with other people, and experiencing jealousy. We also get into a very interesting discussion about how tricky it can be to comment on your partner's relationship with someone else. But above all, we also talk about all the beauty that even these experiences have brought to their lives and how they feel like being poly is truly part of their identity and the way they want to live their life. Before we start, remember to subscribe to the podcast, if you haven't already. Now that we have the third season going, you want to make sure that you don't miss out on any of our new episodes.

Okay. Without further delay, here's our interview with Taylor and Alan.

F: Welcome to Polycurious. I'm so excited to have you guys and to have this conversation with you. I mean, I guess like most guests, you are just people in the community who have what seems like a lovely non- monogamous relationship, so. Yeah, I can't wait to hear more about that.

Mariah: Yeah. And I've known you guys for a little while now, so I'm just excited to dive a little deeper with you as things are always changing and evolving. Just curious, kind of over the last couple months, where you guys are at now, and. Yeah. So if you guys wanna start with, you know, just introducing yourselves and how you would like to be noticed in this podcast.

T: So my name is Taylor, online you can find me on Instagram under @velvetsuccubus. And I've been poly for, let's say, almost five years now. I've identified as solo poly that entire time. And Alan and I have been together for four years now.

A: Yeah. Hi, my name is Alan. I've had some element of non- monogamy in every single relationship that I've ever been in, going all the way back to high school. I discovered when I was 16 that I had a kink for watching my partner being fucked. And that kind of just spiraled outwards towards threesomes, group sex, and starting to explore non-monogamy in various forms. I didn't find polyamory or, like, words for it until probably about eight years ago, and from there, explored multiple long term relationships and feel that non-monogamy is something that is very intrinsic to who I am as a person because I've seen it just pop up throughout my life.

F: That's awesome. I love that kink. I'm like, I'm mose thing, and that's the best kink for a partner to have. Right?

A: It makes things. I will say, Taylor and I have talked about this a lot, but having she also shares that kink. Having that kink makes polyamory so much easier. Like, it is just a really nice doorway because she'll go on a date, she'll come back and with permission of everyone involved, she'll tell me all about it while we're having sex, and it'll all get so turned on and just live for that kind of thing.

F: Yeah, yeah. That's awesome. It must be super special. I can imagine. Yeah.

A: Yeah. I think autonomy has always been very important to both Taylor and I. And, I also would identify as solo poly. We both probably have some element of RA (Relationship Anarchy) to how we approach things. And generally, the way we like to structure things is from a very individualistic point. We don't have a hierarchy to our relationship, and don't seek out a hierarchy, primaries or the like in other relationships and try to keep things as equitable as humanly possible. And we've gone on dates together, but primarily we've dated apart and just had some kind of like, kind of polycule group nonsense cuddle puddle at the end of it.

M: Yeah, I mean, I always found that very interesting about both. Your relationship is this very nonhierarchical approach that you both take, and yet I'm constantly seeing you together and, at all the parties and also hearing about other partners, and it all seems to just mesh very well together. I'm actually curious, with your type of polyamory. Would you consider it like kitchen table, or are you very separate in who you date?

T: I would say for the most part, we have a kitchen table dynamic, but that's not always dependent on our feelings and what we want, because it's also the comfortability of what the other person wants. So there may be times where I'm seeing someone who is not a part of the polyamorous lifestyle and doesn't have the same interest in meeting my partner. And I've gotten to the point in my poly where I'm comfortable meeting people where they are, and as long as they're respectful of my lifestyle and my partner, then it's fine if they don't want to meet and have a kitchen table structure.

F: Yeah. And just for the listeners who might not know, kitchen table polyamory refers to dynamics in which all partners or lovers involved are comfortable. Like, having a conversation over the kitchen table, over coffee, over beer. That's sort of like casual involvement between your different partners, which, yeah, it's totally understandable that some people are not comfortable with that, but, I feel like it's a nice thing to have, right? Because there's like, some acknowledgement of: "Okay, everything's out in the open." There's some sort of validation.

A: One of the benefits of a kitchen table approach, or just any approach where you meet people, where they're at, and you have more of, like, a little bit more of a collective mindset where people can meet your metamour or your partner's partners. Is things are always, for most people, things are always a little bit scarier in your head than they will ever be in real life. You can build somebody up as this amazing person, the greatest lover that the world has ever known, and then you meet them, and they're like, ah, uh, this is Jim, or this is Jess. And they're fine. They're great. Everything's fine. And it's just a lot. I think it takes a lot of the edge off for people in general, if you just have more frames of reference.

F: I'm also curious, because my understanding of solo polyamory, in a way, yes, that's what you are doing. But you guys have also been together for five years, right? So I feel like

A & T: Four years.

F: Oh sory, for four years.

A: Yes.

F: So I feel like, you know, for a lot of people, that wouldn't be solo polyamory, right?

T: Yeah. Well, it's all of these words. Like, we give them definition. So when I go on dates, I ask people, what is their idea of poly and what's their ideal relationship structure? So Alan and I spend tons of time together. We don't live together. We actually both live probably, we live in Jersey City, and we live, like, five minutes walking from each other.

F: Oh, uh, really? I didn't know that.

T: Yes, it's very convenient. We spend a lot of incidental time together, which is very nice, in my opinion. But for me, what solo poly is, is I view myself as my primary partner, and what I want is honestly, like, the most important thing, right? So if he has the idea that he wants to find a partner and have a nesting partner, and that's not something that I want, I want him to go ahead and do that because his happiness means so much to me. But for me, with solo poly is my focus primarily is, like, myself. And when I say that, it's not putting someone else down or being inconsiderate of their feelings, but it's just putting my feelings first and communicating what I want and why I want that.

M: Yeah, that's what I really liked about what you said, too, is that you kind of meet people where they're at, but you also ask them, what does poly mean to them? So that you can kind of gauge and get an idea based off of what their experiences are. Do you have a checkbox or checklist that you kind of tick off whenever you're dating a new person of like: "Okay, isn't going to work because they're not, they don't define poly as this way, or they don't define these specific terms."

T: I would say yes and no. right? Because I'm comfortable meeting people where they're at. If they're in a different place with their poly, as long as I don't view them in an unhealthy state, then I can usually say: "Okay, I'm willing to date this person" but I also need to have these boundaries to kind of, like, protect myself. So a good example would be, if I'm dating someone who's poly that wants to find a primary partner and someone to live with, I know that I'm not going to be the person that can give that to them, but that doesn't mean that we can't have a good time and really deepen our connection, even with me knowing that they're going to be looking to find someone to live with at home, right?

F: It just means that you might have to tell them, like: "Okay, cool, you're in that journey. Just so you know, I'm not going to be that person for you." Right?

A: Yeah, it's all about setting expectations. And the more reference use you get for even, just like, people doing their own non- monogamy, monogamous thing, their own versions of poly, because everyone's doing a little bit different things, you just are better able to figure out where you're going to fall on the spectrum.

F: Yeah, yeah. And hopefully with what you guys are sharing, people listening can also figure out where they fall on the spectrum. So to take it a little back to maybe your journey. So you guys mentioned that you met about four years ago, and Alan, you mentioned you always had some sort of version of non-monogamy in your life. So maybe tell us a little bit about that. Like, how did you deal with that when you were younger? Like, I think you mentioned high school or something.

A: Yeah. So 16 was my first non- monogamous experience. I had a high school girlfriend who I ended up dating for five years and just really wanted to do a threesome with another man and got that happening.

F: So did you tell her?

A: Yeah. It started out by just discussing fantasies. It definitely started in the realm of just like: "Let's role play that someone else is in the bed with us together. And how do you feel about that? What excites you? Do you think you might want to take this into reality? What are worries that you have? What are concerns that you have?" And just trying to figure out what is the best way to comfortably approach this. And we were able to navigate that and approach sex in a very matter of fact, like, rational kind of way. And, had friends who were also very game for things and just explored from there. And every relationship I've had has had some level of non-monogamy to it.

M: That's just so interesting that at 16, you had such great communication skills.

A: I used to. I used to attribute this a little bit to, I used to just read magazines all the time. I'm not gonna say the best magazines. Sometimes it was Cosmo. I worked in a grocery store, but I would just read every magazine. See the questions, I would just, like, think about how I would want to talk about all these different topics and just get to know someone. And curiosity is a major, major drive for me. It's a turn on for me. So I just kind of want to get to know everybody and figure out what makes them tick, and that helps out a lot. And I think there's some things of my background that added into this. Not least of which, funny story, my brother also happened to be polyamorous, so we can blame my parents in some form or fashion.

F: What influence from your parents do you think that?

A: So I think there's a cross of things. My parents were not the most emotionally available people in the world. They didn't show love through physical touch or words of affirmation. Those happen to be my two main love languages. So there's definitely a trauma response there where I'm seeking those out. And that probably led me to want to seek out more engaging emotional relationships. My parents are actually hermits. They have no friends, and they don't interact with almost anybody else except for my brother and I. So they have zero outside relationships, not even friendships.

So I have some suspicion my brother and I rebelled a little bit in terms of branching out and wanting to hold on to more relationships because of that. But my parents are also very accepting and very, like. They always presented a very comfortable and safe kind of rational space to explore emotions and explore things like sexuality. I always used to make a joke that I could come home to my parents at any point and say: "Mom, I'm a gay buddhist monk now." And there would be, like, zero follow up questions to that. So I always knew that they were just gonna be cool with it, and they were gonna support me and love me. And I think that allowed me to feel a little bit safer in myself and a little bit less worried about, like, what other people might think or judge and allowed me to explore.

F: That's so interesting. So are your parents, like, self declared hermits? Like, do they say, like: "We're hermits, we reject society?"

A: I don't think self declared, no. But, like, there was never a time where a family friend came, came over. During my entire time growing up my parents retired and they haven't interacted with anyone besides my brother and I. And partners we bring over.

F: What did they do for work?

A: They're both accountants.

F: Okay.

A: Very logical, rational kind of thing.

F: Okay, interesting. How about you, Taylor? What was your journey before meeting Alan?

T: So, funnily enough, I have a similar story. I had my first threesome when I was in high school as well, around 16. I never really felt super jealous and I was always very sexually curious and wanted to have fun. So although we weren't dating other people at the time, we were like, sexually exploring with our friends. I also ended up dating a guy when I was 18 that was 19 years older than I was. And he left his wife to be with me. And eventually his wife and I ended up becoming friends. Yeah, so I have a very interesting progression there. I knew that after I left that relationship that I didn't want to be in another monogamous relationship because at the time I was dating a lot of men who were much older. There was a very big power dynamic, and they were also very controlling to where I wanted the opposite of that. So in my next monogamous relationship, or it was monogamish, I could say I was very upfront from the beginning that I didn't want to have a traditional monogamous relationship and I wanted to explore with other people. At the time, I didn't realize that poly was even a thing, right? I knew that swinging was a thing. That's what we started doing. And I remember saying to my partner at the time, we'll call him P, that I wanted to have four boyfriends. And I knew that I could handle having four boyfriends. And he was a very monogamous person and did a lot of things to kind of like, please me. And eventually that just doesn't work. So we ended up splitting up. And then I said, you know, I'm gonna live my authentic life. Like, I really do believe that I can have four boyfriends. Little did I know at the time that there's, like, only, but so much.

F: Yeah, I was about to ask. I was like, I don't know. I don't even know if two is possible? like, time wise, you know? I mean, possible for sure, but practical.

T: Yeah.

F: Four boyfriends, it's a different thing.

T: Four boyfriends has not happened yet. And after being poly for almost five years, I don't think that I could maintain four long term, like, serious relationships.

A: It depends. I think, again, it all depends on where you draw the line on what. How you define these relationships and what a long term, serious relationship is.

T: Well, let me rephrase them. I don't think that I could maintain four relationships where I'm seeing someone once or twice a week.

F: Exactly. That was also my definition of it.

A: Yeah.

F: But I don't want to let this pass by. How did you become friends with your ex's wife?

T: So we became friends because he was in so much pain from, like, ending this relationship. This poor man would, he wouldn't want to cry in the house, so he would cry in his car after getting home from work because he really loved me. And I was so young, and my life was so challenging at the time that he really felt as though he needed to put a lot of his effort into me and my life. And I do appreciate him doing that. But because of seeing his experience and all the pain that he was in and not being a jealous person, I said: "Yeah, sure, like, spend time together. You can also invite her over." It was like, no problem. She would come to the house every so often. I would cook.

F: Sorry to interrupt. Was he, cheating on her with you? Or...

T: He was, yes.

F: Okay. He was cheating on her with you?

T: Yeah.

F: And then they broke up, but then they would still hang out. And you allowed that, and you said, invite her to the house.

T: Yes. So I met her. And she was older, like, he was. I think she was probably 24, 25 years older than I was.

F: Yeah. How old was he?

T: So he was 19 years older than me at the time. He was 36.

F: Right.

T: Cause I met him, I was 18. So from seeing his pain and also, like I'm an empath, so I was very comfortable with them having time, spending it together, all three of us spending time together. And it was very awkward for me because I was 18 and I didn't have a lot of relationship experience. This was my first adult relationship. And how we all ended up becoming friends was... I just apologized to her, right? I was 18. I didn't really understand the magnitude of getting involved with this guy. He was married. I just didn't know. So I apologized to her and explained to her that I really did care for him and love him. And she accepted my apology, but also let me know that it wasn't my fault because I was not in a relationship with her. And we just through that, acknowledging what happened and acknowledging my error, I think that that's how we kind of began to establish a relationship. And we had a time where we, her and I, without him, got completely wasted at a bar, and we all slept in the same bed together. And he was like, I have never felt happier in my life. I have both of these women that I really care about together in this space.

F: Right, but you never had sex or anything. It was a friendship?

T: Yeah. No, it was never sexual between her and I.

F: Okay. That's awesome. I mean, sounds like already at 18, you had a lot of life experience, right? going through that whole thing. So you mentioned that that informed you your journey, seeing that you were like: "I don't want to do monogamy because I don't want the betrayal, etcetera. I'd rather have everything out there and be honest about my journey." So were you, like, ever since non-monogamous?

T: So I dated another guy after that, and we were kind of like swingers. I never felt monogamous. I just didn't realize there were other options.

F: Yeah. And how did you first realize?

T: So I realized from Google that. Thank God for Google. And then once my relationship with a guy where we were kind of, like, swingers ended, I immediately was like, I'm gonna go to a meetup, and poly cocktails did an off branch of, um, Poly cocktails in Jersey City, where I live at the time. Well, now. And I went and I ended up meeting some people. And there's, like, how the Burner community overlaps with poly. There's also a nudist community that overlaps with it.

F: Oh, yeah.

M: I didn't know that.

A: Yeah.

T: Yeah. So I ended up meeting some friends who were very big in the nudist community, and then got recommendations for different parties. And then I went to Dances of Ice, and I met a man there, who we'll call him R. He lived at Hacienda, and he was like, I think you would really like to come to a Hacienda party. Like, why don't you check out one of our socials? And I think that you'll find community here.

F: Yeah. And Hacienda is a community house.

A: Community living space.

F: Sex positive community living space or sorry, I'll let you go.

A: Community space. People who live there who are involved in the sex positive community, they also have places you can rent out, and they host their own parties as well as people rent their space for parties, workshops, events, teaching about either kink or general non-monogamy topics.

F: Yeah. You can follow them on Instagram. I think it's Hacienda with their Instagram.

A: It's @haciendacommunity on Instagram.

F: Awesome. Okay, great. And how did you guys meet?

A: We met on OkCupid. Which. It's a pretty good, as far as dating websites go for non-monogamy, it's pretty good because you can search by only non-monogamous people, which helps out, but I've met quite a lot of partners off of OkCupid in my time. But yeah. Taylor and I met on OkCupid, and we went on a hiking date and just started talking.

M: That was your first date? Hiking? Oh, what a great first date.

A: And then just we just have always felt like very good, best friends just rabbling on each other for most of most of our, most of our relationship.

T: Yeah. I always felt like from the moment I met Alan, that I met him in a previous life, and we were, like, really close. So there's always been that level of comfort there with Alan to where I can share everything about my life. He's such a great listener and communicator that it was just very easy.

F: It's great that you guys are so aligned in the way you are thinking, and it sounds like you have a great relationship, but what have been some of the things that have been maybe a little bit more challenging in this process?

A: I think all relationships are hard, and polyamory can be very hard as well. Though I will always maintain that I don't actually find it that harder than any of the normal problems that would exist for a monogamous person. There's very few things that I would ever classify as, like, solely a poly issue. but Taylor and I are both not prone to jealousy at all. But that doesn't mean we don't experience jealousy. Like, when Taylor and I have. We've been together, we have this very strong relationship when she's dated someone, and that relationship turned into a loving relationship. The first time I saw her fall in love with somebody else I went through all kinds of jealousy and insecurity and had to work through why I was feeling the way I was, because change and the unknown is very scary. another reason why I do think that it is a little bit better to have some element of just knowing people or kitchen table, because getting to, say, meet the partner that she was falling in love with definitely took them from a mythical place in my head into a much more realistic one. And you can see everyone has faults and everyone has different things they can work on. And Taylor and I have. Many times we've been to couples therapy to talk through different things that we've had to go through. We both have, like, trauma from, like, past relationships that heavily interfered with how we were relating and had to work through, things from our childhood, all the normal things that anyone has to do. I think that Taylor and I have always been able to, because we are both on a very similar emotional wavelength.

And we both tend to be very even keeled. It helps with our conversational ability, our ability to talk through things. Anytime we had a couples therapy session, we would go through the hour of couples therapy and then talk for 3 hours after that, like, without fail. That was how it was. And we would. We just tried to meet each other where we're at, even when we were struggling, even if we knew why we were struggling. But we were still struggling because trauma is a bitch sometimes. You're still able to go through and see, how we could get to the end.

T: My therapist gave me the best advice, and it was, when you're having difficulties in any relationships, imagine that person being a three year old. And then it makes it much easier for you to begin to work through the problem, because instead of looking at them as "Oh, this man or this woman that I'm fighting with, they pissed me off so much." You see them as a child, and you think about all the times they shared with you, difficulties that they went with, and it just turns up your sensitivity and your empathy to where it's much easier to come to a rational decision versus a decision that is rooted in high emotions.

M: I love that so much. I feel like I could definitely use that in my life right now. So thank you for that tip.

F: Yeah, and I mean, for people who are listening, who maybe are going through that process of seeing their partner fall in love with someone else. You mentioned meeting the person helps, but what were other things that helped? Or if you could maybe give us a little more detail about the situation, like who this person was, I don't know, Taylor, if you're still seeing this person.

A: Yeah, Taylor's been in multiple relationships over the course of us dating. But she's only fallen in love with somebody once. And that was, like, a very pandemic relationship. And there were quite a lot of things moved very quickly. Cause the pandemic just kind of, like, put everything in, like, a little bit of a pressure cooker, I think, for a lot of relationships.

And it just led to very, like, weird places very quickly. So, like, they were with this partner, it felt like they were having this passionate, amazing relationship, that was, like, exploding. And they had talked about maybe they would be living together. They were gonna have talks about it. And I was just like: "What? This is so different than anything she has said before." And I feel like it's out of the blue. And it was just a lot for me to process.

F: Yeah. And how long had you been together at this point? And, with what frequency did you see each other?

A: About two years, two and a half years. And we saw each other probably twice a week at least, on average. But it was a big change. it's very funny. I'm not someone who's very prone to jealousy over anything sexual. I actively want to watch my partner be fucked. But there'll be something that will trip up your jealousy triggers. For me, I knew it was vacation time. Like, I covet my partner's vacation time because I want to go on, like, a three week trip. And if you only have three weeks and now you have two partners, now you have to divide that vacation time out. Oh, no, I'm getting less vacation time, and it's like a resource I can't get back. So, like, having to work through those is always a little bit silly.

M: That's actually funny because I relate to that so hard, but because I have divorced parents, so, like, anytime we go on a vacation, I'm like, okay, I have to do Thanksgiving here and Christmas there. And, I mean, especially with relationships too. I'm just curious. I'll let you finish your story. But, like, just curiosity about, like, how that works if you're into serious relationships?

A: There's a lot of overlap between, like, divorced parents and, like just sharing space and sharing energy and someone you might love. Like, there's a lot of parallels that would go, there's only one Christmas. If Christmas is really important to you and they support to two different people, now you gotta either do it all together or figure something else out. But I mean, you just figure it out. Like, maybe Christmas is Christmas Eve over here and Christmas day over there, like, you're compromised. Just like every divorced parent has to compromise. It is something that definitely took, ah, a bit for us to work through.

Like, whenever someone's experiencing jealousy, I think it's always good to look within and see what it is that might be triggering you. I always go back to this example with a previous partner who she had been seeing, someone who she also was in love with. And I had talked to my partner about, we're going to go see this Captain America civil war movie. And we had made plans, and then we had to miss the day for something, but we'll do it later. And then a week later, she ended up going to see Captain civil war with her other partner. And I remember I was so upset. I was furious. This was the worst. It is completely wrong to be in so many ways. And to this day, I've still never seen Captain Civil war, and I have no interest in it. Like, that movie means nothing to me. I wasn't really upset about that particular movie. I just wanted some kind of connecting time. I wanted a date time. I wanted to plan something, and I was feeling like we missed ours. You got to go on one. And now I'm feeling some kind of a deficit here. So what I really wanted had nothing to do with this other person or this movie. I just wanted a date. Let's put it on the calendar and do it. And that's usually this. A really good rubric for almost any problem that revolves around jealousy. Because if you could just peel back the layers of the onion, figure out what is the triggering element for you, what is. What is something that you just need? What do you need right now, jealousy is often just like a cry for, like, I want something. I need to be hugged. I need to have sexual connection or something. And you just figure that out.

T: The jealousy is the surface level emotion, right? Like, what's at the bottom, right? Because it's probably going to be exactly how Alan described, where it could be that you're not getting enough time with this person or you want very specific time with them, and it's just coming out as jealousy.

F: Yeah. How about you? Have you ever felt, jealousy with Alan?

T: Oh, yeah, I've definitely felt jealous because Alan is my baby, right? And I'm like, how dare anyone do something to him? Like, I love him so much. And I definitely have, like, a big mothering, nurturing side to me. For me, what eases my jealousy is more information, right? So if I can know this person, I can see them with you. As long as I see that they're not problematic and taking advantage of my sweet angel, then I'm fine, right? Then it's like: "Okay, you do your thing. I could care less. I want you to just have"

F: So your jealousy sounds like it's more of protectiveness.

T: Yeah. Alan's the baby.

F: Coming out, yeah.

A: Yes. Different kinds of things. Like, I'm very protective as well. Over, over Taylor. I think that one other things that relationship that she was in when it started to veer into, say, a less healthy place for both Taylor and her other partner. One of the things that I think is very difficult in navigating non-monogamy is, as someone who is very big on autonomy and thinks that people should be making their own decisions, it is always a tricky minefield to cross on how much of your opinion you want to be giving on your partner's other partner and their relationship, because it is very easy for that to come from a place of jealousy. It is very easy for that to come from a place of fear that you make sure you need to unpack. It also can come from a place of being very protective. But also, are you being overprotective? Let people make their own mistakes sometimes you need to know where to draw the line on that. That line is very hard for everybody, and that is just always going to be something that you will have to approach by checking in with yourself, by checking in with your friends, checking in with a therapist, trying to reassess, like: "How am I approaching this? What is the impetus in me that is driving me to this, and am I coming from it in a place that I feel I know, you know, I'm giving space. I'm not trying to overstep boundaries. I'm trying to be very respectful. But, hey, I see something might be a little wrong. Let me cue you in. Let me give you some information."

F: Yeah, I think about that a lot because, you know, for example, when I'm dating someone, I always look for Seth's approval, or rather, I call it the Seth Stamp. I'm like, not just like people I'm dating, just friends. Because I really just know that he has a really good instinct. Like, it's happened to me before that I'm like: "I don't know about this person." And he's like: "No, no, no. This person is solid" you know? And then I realized later that he's right or the other way around. Like, he's like: "Yeah, I don't know. I'm like, not having the greatest feel about this person." And I'm like, what are you talking about? They're great. And then that person does something, right? So I realized he has a really good instinct, and he's also really looking after my well being. And I value his opinion a lot. But I'm, cautious of advising people to get their partner's advice or opinion on whoever they're dating because of what you're saying, right? Because, I mean, he's just able to do this and separate his feelings from what this person is truly. But it's normal that it might be difficult when you feel jealous about someone not to put, like, a, filter over the situation, whether you know and you are able to recognize: "Okay, this is coming from jealousy or this is coming from a true concern from my partner." Right? But, sometimes, like, figuring that out is not the, not the easiest.

T: Yeah, it's very challenging to figure out, but I think in this situation that Alan's describing is a few things, right? It's one, when your partner is dating someone that you may not view as the healthiest person is like, do you trust that your partner is going to be able to figure this out and there's not going to be any long term damage? That's outside of emotional turmoil. And in this particular situation, although Alan was able to see things that I wasn't as clearly able to see because I was in love, I was still very cognizant of them. So it was: "Hey, I'm concerned about X." "Okay, I see it, but I don't care. I love this person, and this is the path that I'm going to go down." But he has to have trust in me that I'm not going to allow this person to put me in a very unhealthy or abusive or a financially difficult situation. So he has to have that trust in me. And then on my end, I have to have the trust that my partner has a good judge of character, and maybe they're seeing things that I'm not. So it has to work on both ends, but it also has to be taken with a grain of salt, because, as we all know, love makes you very blind. But eventually you will be able to see again, and then it'll be: "Okay. Yes, I was in love with this person. Yes. Maybe this went a little bit too far, but here I am again."

A: Yeah.

F: Right.

A: I would always say that couples therapy is the best. And having couples therapy go to therapy is awesome, and I think, like, any advice you ever hear from anyone else and how they're living their life? You always take it with a grain of salt. At the end of the day, you're still the one in the driver's seat and you're still the one who can make the best decision.

F: Right, because I mean, it's like with friends giving advice, right? Because like at the end of, you know better than anyone else, right? Like at the end, the only person who has all the facts is you. Because you are you and the other person you are relating with that you're talking about are, ah, the only two people in the world who know all the facts, you know? So. So, yeah, I guess that balance of trusting your gut and knowing your instincts, but also listening and remaining open to what your partner or your friends have to say about someone you're dating, I think it's important.

A: You just got to stay curious. Stay curious about everything. As long as you're always learning and you're open to learning, then you try to avoid rigidity too much. You're going to be able to get yourself back into a good place and you're going to be able to get yourself back into wherever your comfort is. It's a lot easier to get there if you stay loose.

T: Yeah. And that's what got me through some of the difficulties with dating. Alan and some of his other relationships is needing to have faith that he'll be able to see the situation for what it is and make the best decision for himself, right? Because if I'm coming from a place of love and I am seeing something that's there, eventually he's going to be able to see that as well.

F: Yeah. Yeah. You have to trust.

A: Yep. No relationship is perfect as well. We're all like flailing around here in some form or fashion. So leave some room for empathy for yourself. The more poly people you date, the more experience you have with that. It'll get easier over time.

F: Yeah. Sounds like you both have had also situations in which, like you saw each other dating people that probably weren't, like the best for your partner, right? Is there any quick red flags that, maybe you can tell us that you saw that some people might want to look out for if they feel like their partner might not be doing them service?

T: Oh, I have an easy one: control. If you meet someone who wants to change your actions and kind of control different things that you're doing, that that's a problem because we all meet people and we can identify different issues in their life. But how they go about communicating that and how they go about what they believe your resolution should be is a really good sign, right? You want to be with someone who sees you as for who you are, hears you, validates you, and also is not wanting to control you, right? It's the same thing, as I was saying, where you need to trust that your partner is going to make the best decision. I trust that Alan is going to make the best decision. And even if he doesn't, I'll still be there for him. Because my love for him is unconditional.

My presence in his life is not. But as long as you meet someone who knows how to go about communicating these to you and is not trying to really control you in this situation, then I think that you're dealing with someone who you can try to work things, work things out with, depending on the other issues that you may have.

M: Yeah, I really love what you just said, too. And I just want to take a second to repeat that, because what you said was, my love for him is unconditional, but my presence in his life is not. I think that's a really. I admire that stance so much. Cause, again, that's coming from a place of really valuing what you need in your life. Can you kind of clarify or elaborate on what you mean by that?

T: Absolutely. So, I love Alan. I'm always here for him. I'm his biggest cheerleader. I want him to be successful. I want him to have different experiences, even if they're negative. But if there's ever a point where I feel as if his behavior and his actions are impacting my life in a negative way, such as it could be a continuous emotional state, right. If we're trucking along for a year and it's nothing, but I feel like he's streaming consciousness at me and not caring about what I'm going through, then that doesn't sound like there's, like, a very fair back and forth. I can still love him from afar and be his cheerleader, but it doesn't mean that I need to tolerate him streaming consciousness at me or not supporting me or not emotionally validating me, I have to love myself first. And even if I love him and I realize that he is not serving me anymore, and when I say serving, I mean he is taking from me in ways that I cannot get back, then at that point, I have to remove myself from the situation, and I can love him from afar and support him, but I'm just not going to tolerate this unhealthy behavior that I'm receiving.

F: I love that.

M: And that. And just even hearing that, Alan, that makes you're completely comfortable hearing that. And like, do you feel the same kind of stance?

A: Yes. I mean, this goes back to my thing. I always believe in 10% chaos in the world on all things. The same kind of philosophy of, like, I could leave this podcast and just get hit by a bus at any moment, and then I die, and then that relationship's over and that's the end. And, like, it could happen. And I think it is actually kind of. I find it empowering to keep that kind of a thought in mind. It's the same way that you can live a fuller life if you understand the ephemeral nature and that things can end. My relationship with Taylor could very well end. Statistically, it's more likely to end before the grave than it is to get there. There's a reason why at every wedding you go to and whenever they're like, stand up, if you've been together for 30 years and everyone claps, because it's really rare, like, most relationships end, but that doesn't mean most relationships need to be failures or need to be not worthwhile. I've really enjoyed the four years that Taylor and I have been together. And if it was to end tomorrow, through bus or otherwise I have had such great peaks of love and connection and been able to grow and change and evolve as a person through knowing her, through being empowered by her, through the support she's given, and just the way she's shown me how she lives her life, how we've managed to coexist together and create something special, that there's no way, regardless of whatever happens, that this relationship would not be meaningful, impactful, and a true expression of love. As I'll keep all the way to my grave.

M: Uh, my heart just exploded.

F: Yeah. I love that. That's so lovely. Well, I mean, we kind of already touched on the beautiful things about your relationship, but is there anything else before we move on? Giving advice to listeners that is, like, really fulfilling in your relationship, or more generally, in non-monogamy? Like, if someone were to ask you why. Why do you do this? Or what's special about your relationship? What would you respond? If it's so much work and requires so much communication and sometimes therapy, and sometimes seeing your partner fall in love with someone else and sometimes feeling jealous and all of that, like, why are you still doing this?

T: Oh, that's easy for me. I actually don't see any other way to structure my relationships at this point in time. I feel like my authentic self, regardless if I have Alan, if I have six partners or zero is. I am polyamorous at my core. I have a really big heart, and I want to give love to multiple different people, regardless of how painful it is. I actually don't feel like. I don't feel like this is, like, a choice for me.

A: Yeah, that also. I mean, everything is framing, but everything you mentioned there like, there's the framing of it being, like, hard or difficult or, like, these are struggles you may go through if you're polyamorous, but it's very easy to just turn it around. Everything you mentioned can be very positive and very uplifting. Couples therapy can be really exciting and connecting. You can learn so much about each other. You can gain new tools. The work, that you put into relationships makes them really special and wonderful. Watching your partner fall in love, that can be very hard, but it's also super beautiful. And you can gain such just joy in seeing your partner being so happy. That person can bring crazy fun things into your life. They could be an awesome cook. They can, like, we can all hang out, play games.

F: You mean the person, that person that.

T: She's falling in love with?

F: Yeah.

T: They can also suck. They can also suck.

A: But. But, like, more often than not, like, if most of the time, that's that, like, Taylor's been into someone I've wanted to hang out. I wanted to, like, play games. It's nice, you know, set up a D & D game. You get more people in there. Like, there's lots of things that you could do. I've been on multiple partners. I've had that. I've gone on, ah, long term trips with and just, like, experiences I might not have. I had a partner who dated a man from Greece. And, like, he took the two of us or the three of us all through his quaint greek village and showed us his olive press and things like that. I just wouldn't have that if I. Unless, I mean, I could go date him. I would have dated him, maybe. But, like, like, without the ability to go out to just experience people, like, just the possibilities that open up to you are endless. Like, you just. You're able to relate on a very deep level. I used to make a joke that there is, like, polyamory is a nice way to, like, fuck your way to friendship. And there is, like, a little bit of truth to that, because, like, sexual motivation is really good motivation sometimes, like, it's sometimes hard to make new friends, but, like, if you might want to fuck those friends, then you're like: "Hey, I'll put some energy into this."

T: It helps out, you know what I mean?

F: I mean, I kind of like that because I was reflecting on it, because I saw, someone I used to date the other day at a party and this past weekend, and I was like: "I just want to tell you I love you so much." You know, now we're friends, but I just wanted to say, because of the relationship we have, I love you so much. And he's not the only person that I've dated that I've expressed this to. And, you know, as someone who at least so far, has been mostly dating around, I haven't had a serious partner besides my boyfriend. You know, sometimes I'm like: "Well, what's the point? You know? Like, what's the point if I'm anyways going to break up?" And, yes, fun and exciting at the beginning, but then I just move on to something else. Like, why am I, you know, losing my time, you know, in parentheses, for those who can't see? Because then you become friends with the people. Like, like, I feel like now that I think about it, now that I reflect on it, I might not see them in the same way, but we can still meet up as friends. I still value and treasure all the things that I gained from learning from them. And at the end of the day, I wouldn't say that it was a waste of time. Like, I've also learned so much, not only about the world, but about myself through those relationships, right? It is. It is, it makes life a little bit unsteady, and it's sometimes not ideal if you have other goals to be distracted by dating. But, hey, I'm still. I still have my podcast. I have a job. Like, I'm still doing the things, and I'm fine, and I have my friends and everything. So I think at the end of the day, you know, it's worth it for me, at least. And it sounds like it's worth it for you as well.

A: Yeah.

T: Cause relationships can change structure. So I had a guy that we dated for, like, six months, and we've been broken up for almost, I guess, like, two and a half years now. And we're still, like, really good friends. We go to shows together, we talk on the phone pretty often, and he lets me crash at his place in Manhattan. And we have hooked up only one time since we've been broken up, and he is, like, really close to me. The relationship that I have with him is so beautiful, and it all formed from a sexual. And I wouldn't necessarily say our relationship was romantic, but it was sexual and very intimate, very friendly, intimate. And we now have this beautiful friendship.

M: Yeah. And I think that's really important to kind of nail in is that these. There's flexibility in every relationship, and I always found it very important, even though I've never experienced it until my last breakup. But, like, I always wanted to be friends with my exes. Like, I felt like that time wasn't wasted. You do learn so much. There is a connection there, obviously, and you spend so much time with someone. Why end it there when you can be friends and you can still gain all of the benefits outside of the sexual romantic area? And then, yeah, I mean, with my last breakup with Logan, it was obviously hurtful at first, but we were able to really turn around and just be like, we can be at the same parties, and we can really catch up and everything. And even though things got a little weird for a little bit, it's just like, I still care about him so much, and I will always love him, and I believe that from his side as well. But, yeah, I just think it's so wonderful when you can be in the same space and be able to still be close to someone and potentially even lean on them if you need that.

F: Yeah. I mean, it not always happens immediately, right? When I hear people saying: "Oh, I want to be friends with my ex" and they start hanging out, like, immediately after they broke up, I'm always like: "Okay, you can totally be friends with them, but just wait a month, wait two months, wait a year" whatever, depending on how deep their relationship was, because I do feel like you need that separation. And even with the people that I've dated, even though our relationships weren't serious, people are always gonna be there, whether it's their memory or whether there is a different stage of your relationship with them. You don't need to be so attached to people.

A: Yes. I think the important takeaway is, like, regardless of whether you're polyamorous, non- monogamous, or monogamous, human connection is something that's very worthwhile to pursue. And how you choose to pursue that human connection is up to you to decide and the people that you connect with. And I think, for me, it's important that I keep open to what may come I keep curious to the people that may come into my life, the people I haven't met yet, and I don't know what they're going to be like. I don't know what our relationship is going to be like. But from the experiences that I've had in the past, I know that there is a wide range of possibilities, and those possibilities are very beautiful.

M: I find it very inspiring, like, how long you both have been in this and how experienced through all of the different relationships. Yeah, we don't get to hear a ton of these stories, so I do appreciate hearing them.

A: Yeah, I think that even when I, talk, I beat a lot of polyamorous people. I'm very involved in, like, play party communities and sex puzzle communities and non-monogamous gatherings and things. And Taylor and I don't always run into that many people who have as wide ranging experience as the two of us do. It's good to just hear a wide range of experiences.

F: Well one last question for you guys, which is, what would you tell to a polycurious person which can be the listeners or maybe a younger version of yourselves?

A: I think it's very important to really lean into the curious part of polycurious. Have an ongoing conversation with yourself. Like, a lot of what we've talked about is what kind of judgments you can make. And the only way you can make those judgments is having a better understanding of yourself and what you need, what your traumas are, what your desires are, and an understanding that those will change. No matter what relationship you get in, there will be changes that will come. And the more you build up a good toolset of communication skills and a deeper understanding of yourself and how you operate, why you operate the way you do, you're going to be able to weather those changes a lot better with whatever partners that you form connections with.

F: Love that.

T: I would say communication. Communication is key. Talk to your partner about everything, right? Everything. After you've done a little bit of exploration within yourself, it's important to not make assumptions, right? You want to actually ask the person and figure out where they are and feel comfortable being vulnerable with your partner and asking things that may have not been taught to you as the norm, because your emotions and what you want is valid, right? And you deserve to have a partner that you can communicate this to and be able to talk things out. Another piece of advice that I would give is to take some time to sit with your emotions and really think about how you feel. With something and if you're comfortable with it and where your boundary is, because, again, your boundaries is not wrong. You just need to actually sit with yourself, get to a place where you're comfortable accepting that that's where you are, be kind to yourself, communicate that to your partner, and then figure out what is best for you. And they figure out what's best for them. And then you guys come to some sort of middle. There is no conversation that shouldn't be had.

F: Yeah, I like that you added also the kind of checking in with yourself and thinking about your boundaries and all of that, because I do agree, communication is the most important thing in any relationship. Not just a non- monogamous relationship, but also I find that some people have the impulse to share everything and put their feelings on their partner sometimes. Like, if they're experiencing jealousy or whatever. And I feel like it's important to express if you are feeling a certain way. But that doesn't mean that you need to put your feelings on your partner. That might be a conversation that you can just have with yourself and really, like, examine with yourself. So I think that both go hand in hand. Well, thank you guys so much, really, for everything you've shared. I'm sure so many people are going to benefit from this and resonate with so many of the things you said. So I really appreciate you.

T: Well, thank you for having us.