Tory: If you've got really genuinely close friends that are non threatening and you absolutely know that, and a partner is so threatened to the point of not wanting you to maintain that relationship, to me, that is a non negotiable red flag. It also is part that it makes Jackson more attractive to me. Like, the more that, you can be hotter.

Jackson: You hear that?

T: Yeah. I mean, like, you know, like, it's more attractive to me the more he trusts me.

Ava: Hey, everyone, it's Ava, co host of Monocurious. Welcome to the last episode of our mini series by Polycurious. In this series, we explored the question, what does monogamy look like in the 21st century today? We had the pleasure of speaking with Tory and Jackson, a monogamous couple living in community at Lightning Society. Lightning Society is a co-living residence and event space in Brooklyn, New York, with nearly 20 residents and hundreds of community members. Their platform is for the community, by the community, encouraging their members to share their passions and expertise.

Fernanda: Hi, everyone, this is Fer. Today, Tory tells us how growing up in a religious community and witnessing her friends experiences with unhealthy relationships made her decide to become, in her own words, a champion friends owner. And what that means is that instead of focusing on dating, she decided to have her emotional needs met by close friends while maintaining her independence. And this is why, for most of her twenties, she remained happily single. Jackson, on the other hand, saw himself falling into one monogamous relationship after the other, and he often felt like he lost himself in them. It wasn't until he met Tory that he realized that he could actually continue to grow in a relationship, as opposed to feeling stuck

A: Like Rome. Their relationship was not built in a day. As they were falling in love, they both entered unknown territories. For Jackson, it was getting to know Tory's non sexual close friendships. For Tory, it was unexpectedly mourning her identity as a single person and the shift in dynamics with her intimate relationships. Through check ins and conversations, they both learned that having their non sexual needs met by a community of friends actually strengthened their relationship. And I think today's conversation really shows how solid and special their relationship is, because they don't rely completely on each other for all of their needs.

F: For me personally, learning about non sexual intimacy really inspired me to practice more of that as someone in an open relationship where I often have a lot of freedom to connect sexually with others. If there's an attraction, I often take the opportunities that come along to connect in that way. But listening to Tory made me reflect on the fact that being friends instead might actually be more meaningful and enriching. And of course, it comes with less complications.

A: As a single, monogamous leaning person, I related so much to Tory's experience in this episode. From champion friend zoning, to questioning being single, to having my needs met, from my non sexual, intimate relationships, and in particular, the variety of deep emotions and attachments that come with that level of intimacy. On top of extreme joy, belonging, safety, and nourishment, there's also jealousy, sadness, and the relational shifts that happen as our lives transition.

This episode really made me feel seen in my experience, and I hope it will for you as well. Here is our episode with Tory and Jackson.

F: Tory and Jackson, welcome to Monocurious. When Ava and I came up with the idea to start the series, you guys were recommended. And even though I didn't know you guys very well, we are all in the same community. And just your enthusiasm with the project and how open you are to sharing your relationship, which is a very special one and one that I feel like a lot of people can learn from, is really inspiring. So we're just thrilled to have you.

J: We're thrilled to be here.

A: Thank you guys for joining us. So just to, like, kick us off, it would be awesome to hear about who you guys are and who you were when you met each other, for sure.

T: Amazing. Well, yeah, we're so happy to be here. Honored to be asked. You know, and thank you both. These are really interesting and amazing conversations. So we're ahead. Excited to be a part of it, definitely.

J: So where do we want to start? You want to. I guess, from the beginning is a very good place to start.

T: A very good place to start. So we met in

J: 2019.

T: 2019. We were both actors in LA, and we were both cast in a new project. It was a national tour of a new, very large, immersive, high tech production, and we met on the first day of rehearsal. So we are technically what an actor speak is called a showmance.

J: Showmance.

T: Which is when you fall for someone in your cast, and often showmances kind of have this, like, eye roll.

J: It's very cliche.

T: I certainly felt that way. I was like, that is so not me. Because there are just, like, some people in the actor world who sort of seem to, like, do that all the time. That's their thing. They fall in love with whoever, every show.

J: It's a new love.

T: So it's also super rare to have a showmance that lasts. And here we are three and a. half years later.

J: Going on four.

T: And, yes, we met on the first day of rehearsal. And the kind of meet cute aspect as well was that I had just spent about a year and a half away from pursuing acting. I did 14 months of solo travel in my mid twenties, and I had come back to LA. Our stage manager had put the whole cast in a Facebook group, and I posted in a Facebook group before meeting anyone. Hey, you know, is there anyone who'd like to carpool? And Jackson actually did not respond.

J: Never. I would never.

T: And someone else did, one of the older gentlemen in the cast, and he picked me up and he was kind of a funny guy, and he just, like, made pretty clear that that was a unique circumstance because it was a holiday and there was too much traffic to come pick me up every day.

J: And, yes, my joke is that I had to make sure that she was as cute in person as she was online before I committed to picking her up every day. But mostly it was just like, I forgot to respond. And, then, yeah, I walked in, saw her, introduced myself, and was like, hey, I actually live right down the hill from where you're staying and I can 100% take you home today if you want.

T: Yeah. So he drove me home and then came and picked me up the next day and had coffee and avocado toast and was like, yeah, which is like.

J: A $100 commitment in Los Angeles.

T: I was like, this is going to be my butt, right? Like, okay, definitely the cutie in the cast, but, like, not going to just. We sign these year long contracts. And so I was very much in a place of, like, I am just not even going to go there with anybody. Which was also just so my kind of thing anyway. But, yeah, pretty much by the end of the first week.

J: Yeah, it was quick.

T: We're like: "Oh, it was quick. Wow."

A: Wow, one week of car rides.

T: Yeah, it was really wild. And there was a commonality of, we had both been. I had been single for four years previous, and you as well. And so we had, you know, both been in these long stretches of really.

J: Self work is what I call it.

T: Self work and self exploration and, like, really, at least for my. I'll just speak for myself. Like, I, you know, spent most of my twenties really happily single. And it was so easy for me to just immediately, like, not feel excited about someone. And I was a really champion friends owner, frankly. Like, I think I just very much existed in a world where I really genuinely want to be friends with you. And I know that this isn't it, and so I would just rather nip it in the bud and be friends because I think that I actually value, at least at the time, it was like, I value that more than I actually do dating anybody. So why don't we just stopped there? And so I got really, really good at sort of navigating that, you know, interest into, let's actually genuinely be friends, really.

Until Jackson came along and there was like this very palpable difference of like: "Oh, whoa, okay, this is like, he's like, this is like boyfriend material."

J: I had a car.

T: This is like partner material. And then he drove me around for the next three years.

A: He brought the avocado toast.

J: I did bring the avocado to the.

A: Avocado toast, so that says a lot.

J: I did it really good.

A: I really loved the term you used. "Champion Friendzoner" I feel like I could relate to some of that in my twenties as well. So speaking of that time, I'd love to learn about what your dating history and relationship history had been up until that point.

J: Yeah, we had very different styles of dating in our twenties. For most of my twenties, and maybe really my whole life since I started understanding that I liked girls, I found myself very easily going from relationship to relationship and serious relationship to serious relationship. I had never was a casual dater. I, if I, like, hooked up with somebody, that was minimum a six month commitment. And then when my last, like, my longest relationship before Tory ended, it was a relationship of four years. I left that relationship not really knowing who I was because I had been kind of defined my adult self as a person in this relationship that wasn't right for whatever reason. And then. Scary. It's confusing. It's all sorts of feelings when you suddenly find yourself without a core part, which you thought was a core part of your identity.

I remember having a conversation with myself out loud, like, what do I actually want out of life? What do I think of myself personally? Do I even really like myself? And one of the answers that I found were not particularly pleasing to me. I was like, I really didn't know who I was as a single person, as an individual person. And that was like the conscious decision that I made. Like, okay, I'm not going to do this thing that I always do, which is, you know, two to three months from now, get a crush on a girl and end up in another long term relationship. That was a great choice for me because it led to years of self work, self care. I think there's a lot of power and positivity in being selfish, especially in certain times of your life. And I think a lot of people are afraid of, of being that. All that's to say is, it led up to this moment where I was entering this show, and I was so excited for all the new people that I was going to meet and all that stuff. And I had the last thing on my mind in any way was, oh, yeah, let's go find a life partner.

And then of course, the universe says: "Hey, actually, uh, now's the perfect time for you to be open to that. Here's this." And it's just one of those great alignments that happens every once in a while.

F: I feel like that's a common theme in the podcast. Most couples say that they met at a point where maybe they weren't looking for that because they were focused on themselves, right? And that's how it goes. When you focus on yourself, you are in a better place to actually be with other people. So.

J: Totally.

F: And Tory, you mentioned previously that you were a champion friends owner, and I heard I a similar theme with Jackson. Not really, because he seems like perhaps had more relationships than you did. But sounds like you both kind of had this idea of if it's not the one or if it's not worth it, like, I don't want to like, casually date. It sounds like you both were looking for committed m relationships and not so much the, you know, just hooking up for fun.

T: Yeah, I think the common thread is neither of us, in our own ways, had that draw to sort of lots of hooking up for fun or like, lots of casual dating. Part of it's my background, too. I grew up in a very strict church environment that had really strong parameters around dating. It was a Nondenominational Christian Church where you actively choose as a fully formed, although I think still too young for many of the people who did choose it, starting at age twelve. But you choose as a grown person to become baptized, and when you're baptized, you're then a disciple in the church. So even those of us kingdom kids who grew up our whole lives in the church, you weren't really in the church until you became a disciple.

And as the kingdom kids grew into teenagers, this crux would happen because you weren't supposed to date a disciple, but you also weren't supposed to date non disciples. So you were just kind of off limits from anything. A combination of that. And I had a few of my very dearest friends in high school go through really emotionally and some physically abusive relationships and I think it just sort of, for me, as a very naturally independent, kind of strong willed person, I had a very strong reaction of like, well, fine, I don't need it. I don't need boys. I don't need anybody. Like every, most people in my life who are obsessed with boys and actively dating, they seem miserable. All these relationships are terrible. And then the whole church thing. So my response was to just kind of defiantly be like, well, I'm fine. That kind of being a part of my identity, too. It was like, okay, I'm this young woman, and I'm just not interested in dating. And so I think that also was what really strengthen that friendship muscle, because

I love men and I love the men in my life, and I've always had really close male friends. So I think there was also, you know, I've always had that really strong resistance to the concept that men and women can't be friends. I was like, I'm going to prove that wrong. So I went to college, had never dated anybody, had never been in a relationship. College was the first time I, like, started dipping my toe in the water of, like, hooking up with anybody. And then I, yeah, sophomore year of college, end of that year, one of my very great guy friends, you know, who I known was interested in me but had kind of, like, pushed away. And, you know, I did that thing where I was like, maybe it's me, right? Like, why am I not open to this? I should go for it, you know? Like, here's someone who I know I love and I know I care about, and they want this and, you know, like that sort of talking yourself into it. And, we started dating, and it, like, immediately just all of those things that I think I, as that very independent person had feared, like, totally came out. He was, like, very jealous and very possessive and mostly just this, like, putting me on a pedestal thing. It was like: "Oh, okay, you, like, love this idea of me, but actually who I am doesn't seem to make you happy because these things I'm doing are making you upset or incredibly insecure or scared." But I got out of it very quickly. I mean, we dated for, like, two months, three months. And that was really tough, tough on this social group. But if you learn anything, I think as actors, it's like, really how to exist in communities where people have dated each other, because it's just, it's just a small thing. But basically then, yeah, I was single the rest of college. Yeah, after college, similar thing. Close, close guy friend. And whom I do and did love very dearly. And he was like: "I want this." And we kind of waffled for a long time, and I did that thing where I talked myself into it, and that lasted for a year and a half. And the exit of that was challenging because I just had this really strong feeling like nothing was wrong. He was a lovely person, but I was like, this is not who I'm going to live my best life with. And I know that. I know it in my core, and I don't know how to do anything but kind of break this thing. And that was so painful for everyone.

And I think no one gives quite enough credit to the ones doing the breaking up on how hard it is and how damaging it can be to have to. To damage someone like that, that you care about, even if you know it's the best thing. And so after both of those experiences, I think I was just like, I cannot convince myself again to get into something because it's just too painful when I have to cut the cord because I know it's not right. Anyway, I think that's where that real deep "Champion Friendzoning" you know, is part through. Been doing it since being so young and knowing I couldn't date anyone. And so any advance, like, turning that into let's be great friends, was kind of a survival instinct and a way for me of dealing with it without feeling the weight of how sad it was that I actually just wasn't allowed to have, like, romantic feelings for anyone. And then I think it really grew into this place of loving people and loving, building relationships. But the pressure of being on that pedestal and the pressure of the two relationships I had been in that very much had that, like, you are my everything. Don't leave. It just was too much pressure for me and really enjoyed being single. And I think I genuinely thought I might be single forever. I think once I found this sort of diverse canon of my village of people who could. Could give me the love that I really felt like I needed. And that was enough. I was like, I think I'm good. And then I met Jackson, was like: "Oh, well, this is fun."

J: There's still surprises.

T: Like, there are still surprises. And, you know, I think I just was like, I can't imagine actually wanting to hang out with any one person for that amount of time to have a relationship. And then, you know, we met, and it's actually insane that how much time we've spent together.

J: Yeah. But I've been in relationships where I've definitely spent, like, less time with the person that I spend with Tory. But I felt entirely codependent. Where, like, you start to, your. Your world starts to collapse around you and you find yourself in a very small box. The way Tory and I work is even though we are in, like, you know, close proximity with each other a lot. But during those times, it's like we've never lost sight of who we are as individual people. There's never been, like, this, like, coagulation and amalgamation into, like, one gross person. You know, my background being like, it's not even that I was looking for the one or soulmate, wherever. It was much easier. It was really easy to, like, get into a relationship and just, like, coast and I. And I, that was what I really, really started not liking about myself was, like, again, these relationships, nothing was inherently incredibly toxic or bad or on the surface level, oh, this needs to end. It was more of, like, this is not actually benefiting any of us in a way that. In a way that is helpful, is in a way that helps you grow or evolve, it's very much staying exactly the same. And I'm so grateful for all of those relationships because, like, and I don't count any of them as failures. I count them as incredible learning experiences to, you know, get me to where I am now, which is just like, I'm happy as a clam. I've never. I've never been happier.

And, you know, that's not just to do with our relationship, that's to do with who I've become as. As individual person, as a single person in a relationship, you know, like that kind of. That kind of thing.

A: I mean, it sounds like you guys are truly meeting each other and not like Tory, from your past experiences, there was a lot of kind of unhealthy weight kind of imbalance. It sounded like I relate to you, Tory, a lot in the sense that, choosing friendships felt better and safer than a strong commitment. But also, I think maybe there's something to be said about meeting someone that really feels like your match and that you would want to really invest all of that vulnerability and connection with. Okay, one small question I had for you is, did you become a disciple? No, you didn't. Okay, so you had that, but it was so strongly influenced during your teenage years. So I was curious if you became a disciple and rebelled.

T: Yeah, no, I did not become a disciple. I did, though. I guess I would have been 16. Yeah, I did, spend a few weeks one summer teaching abstinence based sexual education to middle schooler...

J: Virginity is cool. Like, virginity,

T: Quite clearly, where I had to sign a contract, say, saying that I was not going to have sex before marriage.

J: So for what it's worth, I also signed a contract that said I wasn't going to have sex before marriage. Different church, but, you know, same controversy.

F: How did you guys overcome that? Like, that stigma? I'm not sure, like, when you actually ended up having sex. But I can imagine it to be difficult.

T: Yeah, it was hard and confusing. I don't remember it exactly this way, but when I left to go traveling in my twenties, you know, I was packing up my apartment, I found all these journals and was when I found all these entries from my freshman year of college where, you know, there was a point somewhere in the middle of the year where I was starting to feel down and, you know, I'm sure just very natural freshman year's dresses and, and whatnot, and all this writing about, like, is this satan, basically? Like, am I feeling this way? Because I have now started doing all of these things and I didn't have sex until that first boyfriend my sophomore year. And I think I'm just very grateful that even though that relationship wasn't a very healthy relationship, I had a very healthy like, first sexual experience and relationship. And I'm glad that experience was what it was, because I did, and I do take sex seriously. And to finally get to a place where I'm like, I can believe that this is important, but I also can really consciously choose that this is exactly what I want right now. And so I'm grateful that I came into it really in my own way.

And I just feel like it was a best case scenario from my upbringing because it's definitely a mind fuck. There's a lot around the sex thing. And even though I had a great awakening kind of into that world, it definitely is hard. And I think that absolutely could be a huge part of informing, and I'm sure is the desire for more casual sex and casual dating. Like, just. I don't know, it was like, I don't, I don't, I don't know. But I also didn't have, like, a huge emotional or, like, physical draw towards that.

J: Yeah, I got lucky because my, my parents are awesome. I went to, you know, catholic school, and I was a baptized Catholic, but I went to catholic school because it was the best school in the area. And there was some things that weren't great about some of the stuff that they were teaching there. But my parents also just were, like, there for us and that, you know, we could ask any questions we wanted. But they also were aware of what we were being taught at school and, like, in some sex. Sex ed classes and some, you know, religion classes or whatever stuff about how, like, you know, "You'll go straight to hell for masturbating." That kind of thing. Which is a terrible thing to say to a 7th grader. When, like, that's kind of all you want to do. And, yeah, so I just remember several conversations with my parents where they're like: "Look, you feel free to ignore this. This is not. None of that is real."

F: Where they, like: "You can masturbate. It's okay."

J: Yeah. My dad was like: "Yes, please go for it. It's really healthy. Just, you know, just don't do it at the dinner table. That's all we ask." And I. And I still, to this day, have not. And so, yeah, and then I. Then I went to a jesuit high school and fell in love with the theater and started becoming really, really close with lots of gay people.

T: Yeah. I actually think the growing up, both of us in these theater communities, being theater kids, the communities from a very young age around theater have a lot of that sort of, like, non sexual intimacy built baked into it. It's. It's. It was so fun because at a very young age, and again, for me, it was like: "Oh, I'm not allowed to, like, touch anybody at church. You know, like, there's. There's these rules. And yet here I am now." I went to an arts high school, and we all, like, hang out. We're all, like, laying on top of each other, rolling around on mats all the time. We sit on each other's laps. Like, it's this very.

J: I had co ed sleepovers in high school of know girls and boys, and everyone was, like, sleeping in the same room on the floor, just like, you know, kind of loosely cuddling with each other.

T: Yeah, we can be close and we can be flirty, and we can kind of have this intimacy without it being, like, we're trying to hook up with each other.

J: Yeah.

T: And so then, yeah, like, my couple relationships and all of my things we've already talked about, I just was like, yeah, there was. There was a lot of resistance, and much of that, I realized, was, like, there's just. There was stuff I wanted to do on my own, and especially as a young woman. And I'm so personally grateful for my own trajectory because there's a precious amount of time as a young person, and I think especially a young woman, where you really get to prove to yourself that you can live an amazing life on your own. And I think a lot of people don't give themselves that chance. It wasn't until, you know, my mid twenties and I finally made some friends who were in a relationship that I was like: "Oh, that's cool. Wow, they've got this great relationship" and I think so much of it was that I became so close to them. You know, we just developed this really special relationship between the three of us. And they sort of like, brought me into their world, and they're the friends that brought me to Burning Man the first time.

That's when I sort of started emerging into this world. And that's certainly through them met another couple, and it's through them that I encountered Lightning Society the first time. After having spent a good amount of time traveling in my twenties and doing hostile living and doing the travel thing, it's like here, everyone in New York, everyone we know, goes and travels for, you know, three to six months of the year. And you know, where I was in my twenties in LA, in this community of actors, it was unheard of...

J: Nobody.

T: Nobody under everyone was like, what? Like, okay. Like, it just, it was such a departure and it was so this crazy, like, thing that I just felt this deep need to do. Maybe I'll want to travel forever or someday I'm going to open up a hostel. And then I came here and I was like, this is, people can just live this way all the time. Like, you can live with other people, you can do this and you can do it as a grown adult, totally participating in society. Like, it's just this kind of different thing. When we met the world kind of fell apart. Yeah, we started dating, and then this show we were in got canceled. We got fired. We were like: "Okay, now what do we do?" As that year went on, we started homing in on New York. I did some marinating on what my dream New York life would look like, and it was just like, I need society. That's it. I want to live there.

J: And I was like: "What's co living?"

T: Yeah. And so anyway, I feel like I'm going on.

F: I remember you mentioning that you are the only couple that lives there, right? You are surrounded by a bunch of single people and open minded people, many of whom have also explored, non-monogamy or are curious about it. So, yeah, I'm curious about how you guys decided to maintain your relationship monogamous being in this context, that makes it easy to at least be curious or try to explore in that way.

T: I just don't have this strong emotional or physical desire to have sexual intimacy with a lot of people. And it's never really been a thing for me, but even it still isn't. My desire to have deep emotional intimacy with people is still incredibly strong. And I think from the beginning, we met and we'd go out in LA during this showmancy romcom of a summer, and we would sit there and I explained in detail these relationships that are so important to me. And as non negotiables, these are not relationships I'm willing to sacrifice. So part of loving me is, like, embracing this. And that was something I feel like was a little more foreign to Jackson when we met. And yet his embracing of those worlds and the conversations that we've consistently been able to have showing up to the table over and over again are a huge part. And so I think living at Lightning before I'll hand it over to you is in so many ways, to me, like, my perfect world, because I love this core foundation of our relationship, and I do think we enhance each other's lives while being very independent people. But, like, the idea of totally isolating and, like, living alone, God forbid, in the suburbs, not that that's a bad thing, but it's like, you know, this I. This kind of cultural trajectory of you get in your relationship and then you

You kind of separate more and more, is. That does not feel natural to me personally. And so this being able to have what we have while being surrounded by all of these interesting people that we get to have amazing conversations with and connect with is very important to me. So I think that that is just a part of monogamy that I wish was more talked about or just explored. Yeah. Like, that it was just more free to. Yeah. You can be in a committed relationship and still, like, have a very, very, very rich canon of connections and intimacy with so many people, and you need it. So how to weave that into your life?

A: Yeah. So there's something too. I think humans being together in this, like, tribal sense and really connecting and having intimacy and I think it's a natural part of who we are. And, like, the isolation has just kind of occurred over time. The, like, I don't think we were meant to be isolated. And it's really beautiful to interview you guys. Beautiful example of how monogamy can be really exciting and healthy and you can be expanded and really interesting.

J: And, yeah, like, when we first started dating and, you know, there's all these different styles of relationship, it was really exciting, sometimes scary, and made me anxious. But I very quickly understood that that was purely a recollection of how I had felt in every relationship that I had been in before. And what I mean by that is a trap of monogamy, is you put yourself into little and little and little boxes. And because it's, to be frank, just easy, it's very comfortable to all of a sudden find yourself, like: "Oh, it's just the two of us. And there's all of a sudden nothing. Nothing else there." And I was like, wait. Well, I was never happy in any of those relationships, not. Not really, especially towards the ends of them, because I felt alone in a relationship and. Which is like an oxymoron, you'd think, but I think it happens to a lot of people.

So when we were learning about each other still and exploring each other's worlds and all that stuff, it was really interesting to me because, like: "Oh, wow, this is 100% a way to ever have a feeling of being alone in a relationship", because I've always known that it's crazy to expect one person to fill your cup, and it's a lot of pressure to put on not only yourself, but the other person. And totally unfair. In my mind, emotional needs, those can be and should be filled wherever they need to be filled. And that was like, it was interesting. It was like a six month, I would say, crash course of these revelations, like, all these wonderful lessons and epiphanies. And sometimes that can be, like, a little overwhelming, for sure, because they're like: "Oh, that's different than how I used to think about things. So I've got to kind of rewire myself." And. And, yeah, like, I will say that throughout our entire relationship, the bedrock of it, and it's very cliché, I know, but it truly is. Like, every time, without fail, we'll have the conversation. There's never an avoidance of having the conversation. There's never any fear that the conversation is going to lead to anything bad, because we both arecoming from it, from a place of self respect and respect for each other.

T: Sometimes there's fear.

J: I mean, I'm sure.

T: It's not like: "Oh, everything is. Is like, no, but total..."

J: What? I mean, all the time. But absolutely. See, now we're having a fight.

A: When you refer to the conversation, are you saying just like any conversation within your relationship?

J: Yeah, I simply mean communication, where, like, inevitably in a relationship, things are going to come up, friction's going to happen. Like, that's true of any relationship. Not just romantic partnerships.

T: But also specifically, like, we do. We have communicated a lot from the beginning around this particular topic.

A: Around non-monogamy?

T: Yeah, yeah. And just sort of like, what are the boundaries of even just that intimacy, navigating, right? A world where we allow our hearts to be just a little more open. Like, it's a push and pull. Like, there's the evolution of the comfort levels in that. Like, opening up. Right. That that's okay. And it's okay to, like, have other people fill emotional needs. And then I think for me as well, like, yeah. How to balance not wanting to feel like I need to pull back on those things while also knowing that being in a relationship, you're holding someone else's heart and needs and not wanting to, you know, and, you know, everyone's like, oh, like, you know, what is it? How do you be true to yourself and also respect that by committing to a partnership, you are, like, taking into account someone else's feelings, but not also letting those feelings run your life or letting those feelings hold you back from doing things that are really corally important to you. And I think we've had a keen sense of that. And the communication is, like, the cadence around that. Like, we, I feel like, you know, consistently, we...

J: We love checking in, both of us.

T: It's like, when we're in these situations, like, I'm feeling this, and often it's like: "Okay, you're feeling that, but that's actually not how I feel. And maybe, you know, you're projecting that onto me, and I'm okay." And I do think from the very beginning, we've had really open, like, concise conversations about how we're feeling. How does that make you feel? You know, what are the boundaries? What are your, like, yeah. Non negotiables. And then what are things that we can keep showing up and keep massaging and playing with? So I think that it's been helpful for us because from the very beginning, that's been part of our conversations. So it's not something we've totally had to learn. And especially in moving here and moving to Lightning and these communities that have a lot more polyamory around us, I think, you know, we're pretty solidly in a place where we, like, deeply respect it. And I also think, like anything else, you know, there are super unhealthy, monogamous relationships and some really healthy ones and there are super unhealthy, polyamorous relationships, you know, that we see and some really healthy ones. And I think more than anything, I'm just definitely, especially after moving here and how much we feel like we're thriving in it as a monogamous couple. I think that's where I see this sort of next revolution or just this next awareness, which is why I do believe in co-living so much.

J: It's definitely made our relationship stronger. It's allowed us to be more of ourselves. Does that make sense? Like, as individuals and as a couple, I really honestly think that this world that we've immersed ourselves in has allowed us to really solidify the foundation of our relationship. And it's been really cool to see that happend. And I think it's because we're surrounded by so many different types of relationships.

A: Yeah. And so many people too. Right? You have like 16 other roommates. But I'm curious because I know you said that you guys have check ins regularly, and, Tory, you mentioned that, you have these deep, emotionally intimate, non sexual relationships with couples. Has there ever been any, like, conversations or check ins about these other relationships impacting yours potentially? I'm really curious to hear if you guys had any experiences where there was a challenge that came up that you guys had to work through with those relationship dynamics.

T: I would say the answer is definitely yes. I mean, it's been interesting. I think at the beginning, there was so much joy for me and Jackson's openness to hear about these dynamics and be like: "Great. Like, I don't want you to be anything other than you are." Like, I think that's what you said. You know, and it was just like: "Wow." And then as people came to visit and these communities that, you know, we've been talking about came and Jackson just fully embraced them. And then I absolutely, like, I would almost say every step of the way, like, it's been interesting because it's been a combination of Jackson becoming more open to that. And also, for me, absolutely. It's like there's a It changes, you know? And I think especially in the first year, year and a half, like, there was mourning going on for me in this. Like: "Whoa, this is great and this is real and this is awesome." I also just have, like, major. I'm like a major mourner of my life. Like, I'm such a bittersweet, nostalgic person. Like, as any change, even when it's so exciting, I have, like, deep pain for like, letting things go. And so there was this magical part of myself that I deeply loved in my single life of freedom, and that had nothing to do with pursuing sexual relationships, but had a lot to do with this, like, this identity I built around my being able to be this free and flitty thing and then my place in these other relationships. That, frankly, comes down to the fact that I was made, still am, but was made to feel during this particular chapter, just, like, so deeply seen and special. And as this other person who came into my life broke open this barrier of trust that allowed me to really dive into this single relationship, that also made me feel so seen and so loved. You know, this right negotiating of how. Of, like, this new role and then the new role with them, because there also is very much from them a feeling of, like, you know: "We really love your relationship and believe in it, and, like, we don't want to step on any toes or make any Jackson uncomfortable. And so, like,this. This, like, you know, we're going to roll it back, the affection a little bit," which was really hard for me because I was like: "Wait, no. Like, I don't want anything to change." And that can be hard, too, because, like, that, at times, would come across, I would get more resistant to being affectionate around Jackson with them. Just lots of micro dynamics there. Just at the end of the day, like, we. That even when it feels scary, not being afraid to, like, acknowledge things and have a conversation about it, and I think Jackson's willingness to just, like, show up to that table from the beginning has allowed us to keep, keep going and keep working through the dynamic.

J: I mean, just for my part, like, just my background was different, and it was unlocking a lot of new things for me. So there's different. Like, it was a very, very emotional time. Like. Like, falling in love with someone is an inherently emotional experience. So there's that. There's, like, boundless joy. There's just pure expression, and then there's also these moments of, like, whoa. These are also new feelings that, like, look amazing, but I also don't know how to process them. So that can be overwhelming, and sometimes that can lead to being, like, I'm, like, feeling tense, and I don't know why some people would say, oh, that's like, a jealousy or that is an envy or I. Or whatever. And I can say, for my part, it never. It never was. It never was that for me, it was a feeling of, like, there is a lot happening that is new in my life. I need to allow myself to take the time to process it, like, almost one at a time. Cause if I let it all flow through me, there's a potential that that could crack me.

F: So you had to get used to seeing Tory being intimate, like, both physically, not sexually, but, you know, cuddly or whatever, and also spending significant amounts of time time with other people. And that was, you know, because you weren't used to it. That was bringing up some. Some tension, for sure.

J: And also. But, like, I'll also say for Tory's part and for these. These dear friends of, like, that have become very, very, very dear friends of mine as well. Like, I was never not included from the beginning. They, like, I felt the strong desire and want and need to have me there, too. And then, like, there's also the balance of, like, here I'm falling in love with this person. I love being around this person in every single moment because, you know, who wouldn't? She's great. Look at her.

A: She's great.

J: But also knowing that I feel very secure in this relationship, there's no need for me to absolutely go, go do your thing. And learning how to communicate that, for my part, a lot of sometimes this sticky moments we had, which we, like, always worked through and will continue to work through in the future came from. Yeah. Like, I'm a pretty good reader of people, and I'm a really phenomenal reader of Tory. I just know how she's feeling. I don't know how to explain it other than that. I just do. That sense of mourning that she talked about, I could feel that deeply as well. And that always really. It hurt me, you know, I understand her better now after three and a half years of being with her. But in those first moments and months and stuff, you're like,

I feel a sense of mourning and grief coming from her, and that's scary. I don't want to be the cause of that. I'm like: "Am I causing her to feel this?" And then you start telling yourself stories, which is never a good place to be. And in those moments, what I will always credit Tory for and myself for is we could always come to each other and just simply check in. And sometimes it would lead to a very, very long and very helpful conversation. Other times, it would be very quick and mean, like: "Oh, no, here's where we actually are." And we were both totally just not kind of in the same wavelength. But now we're, you know, we're back together and on it. It's like, that was the thing that helped me understand and made me know that, like: "Okay, this is for real." And also helped me grow to have a, frankly, a little bit more confidence in myself as a person, like, within my relationships, and also grow a desire to be, like: "Cool. These are awesome. I see how these are. These relationships are affecting Tory and what they mean to her." Like, I want that as well. And I've built, you know, my own amazing relationships in the years past with those people, but as well as other people, it's, like, awesome.

F: Yeah, no. You guys are touching on incredible points, and I just want to highlight a few things because you were also part of the event we threw together before launching Monocurious. And one of the reasons why we wanted to talk about the non sexual intimacy is because that's one of the topics that really resonated with people. Like, a lot of people came out of it talking about that. And I must say that, like, for me personally, and this is also for our listeners who might be non-monogamous, it just made me reflect on how I do relationships, because when I feel a connection with someone, because I do have that option of being sexual with them, if I feel that connection, that might just be emotional, but then they're also attractive, and then they also want to make out with me, then in my head, it was like: "Oh, okay, why not just having that open" and then knowing that there's the option of being intimate, but without doing that? Because sex and making out and all of that can come with problems as well, right? So I think that that's a takeaway that people in non-monogamous relationships can take from your relationship. So I'm curious if you have any advice for people who might be listening in monogamous relationships, but who might want that level of non sexual intimacy? I guess, like, from both of your sides, but especially, Jackson, how to have the confidence that your partner can go and have those relationships without them becoming sexual. Because in our society, relationships between men and women that are non sexual, people start questioning, oh, but it's really nothing going on. Like, they have been seeing each other. You know what I mean? So, like, we come from that society, so there's a lot of deprogramming that you have to do. So, I'm curious if you have any tips for people who might be struggling with that.

J: Yeah, there's a couple of things that I will say are necessary. One is the decoupling of the idea that intimacy is not necessarily a romantic thing. Like, I think you have to do a little bit of decoupling and like you said, or deprogramming, whatever you want to call it, of, like, what does intimacy actually mean to you? And if you can redefine that for yourself, that goes a long way. I found and, you know, I what I found when I did that is like: "Oh, I actually had already quite a few very intimate relationships. I just never defined them as, quote unquote, non sexual intimacy." That's what they were. I just called them friends. That was at the time, my relationship that helped me a lot was the relationship with my my business partner at the time. She and I were very, very close. We worked intimately together. I thought about, like, our relationship was like oh, I am, like, super comfortable with her. Like, we, like, snuggle all the time and have, you know, dates all the time. We go out and do stuff all the time. I'm like, what's different in that relationship from that relationship? And it was like, oh, it's just what I called it, I guess. So, yeah, that that would be important, I think. Just kind of a redefining of what intimacy actually means to you and honestly, trust.

Like Tory said, when you were with somebody, when you were partnered with somebody, you are holding someone's heart in your hands. Like, that's just a fact. And you have to sometimes make it just a decision to trust. And I made a very conscious decision to absolutely, like, trust Tory implicitly. And she's never once broken that trust or give me reason to doubt it. And that's really hard to do. I like, it's really, really hard for a lot of people to just to give that because shit gets fucked up sometimes and it hurts. I'm sorry if I can't swear on this podcast. No, no, no. Now it's mature rated. It's easier said than done. But trust is the thing. And I do trust Tory, and I will trust her until she gives me a reason not to. And I don't think she actually smirks. But that's just the decision that I made. I was like: "I believe in myself, I believe in her, and I believe in us, and I believe in the strength of our relationship." And so, yeah, I'm going to trust her. And then from that trust grows a lot of really incredible things. Those are the two things that I would say I could leave you with. But mostly it's very much personal journey kind of thing.

A: Absolutely.

T: And then, yeah, on the other side, that negotiation of being true to yourself and not negotiating on things that are core to who you are. And yet this consideration that when you're growing into a committed relationship, you're holding someone else's heart. And, yeah, there might be mourning in there. And evolution, and those two things at times might feel like they can't happen simultaneously, but it might just take a little bit of time. But also the biggest indicator of a great partner is the one who will meet you through that evolution. And I think there are just really genuine red flags if you've got really genuinely close friends that are non threatening and you absolutely know that. And a partner is so threatened to the point of not wanting you to maintain that relationship like that, to me, that is a non negotiable red flag. And so I think it also is part that it makes Jackson more attractive to me.

J: You can be hotter. You hear that?

T: Yeah.

J: I mean, like, huh?

T: You know, like, it's more attractive to me the more he trusts me. And so it ends up, even when it's super vulnerable, it ends up even better because it's like I get to then have the satisfaction of. And we both do, as Jackson's saying, it's like we both get to have the freedom of our full selves to, like, embrace the relationships we want in our life. And that's why I think we say, yeah, like Lightning Society, this community having the kind of monogamous relationship we have with awareness, like strong awareness of the different kinds of relationships and intimacy and emotional needs we have, it makes us actually stronger, you know? And if we tried to, like, stop those needs, like, it would definitely push. Push us away. Like, it certainly would push me away from him. And so.

A: Yeah, we talked about that with another couple that we interviewed, Jon and Sue, about just like, having the support in your life, your other relationships kind of just really feed you and then really set you up to be your best self in your monogamous partnership. But I think also non-monogamous partnerships. Everyone can learn from this and have this experience.

J: That advice is across the board.

A: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

T: Because I get it with friends. I get friend jealous more than I've ever gotten relationship jealous, which is like a whole, I could talk about for a whole other podcast.

A: I can so relate, when you mentioned that you had, this, you know, emotionally intimate relationship with a couple and how it fed you, I've had experience being emotionally intimate with a couple and being called a sister wife. I was single, so it was like a little bit different. Jokingly called this. And I, like, had feelings of jealousy if there was, like, another person that was, like, getting as close as I was in that sense, absolutely.

T: And, like, jealousy, for me, it comes down to, like, you know, we all want to feel really special, and when someone makes you feel really special, an important, it's like, yeah, this fear of it being taken away or that someone else might feel that part. And so how do I hold space for all these emotions while knowing that, like, not that they're irrational, they're actually quite rational? My brain is basically, like, afraid that I'm losing my spot in the community, in the tribe. That is, like, that relationship. That's a very evolutionary instinct, to feel the fear and feel the jealousy. I listened to something once, and I forget who it was, but they were explaining FOMO, which I also suffer from greatly. And it's not actually the fear of missing out on, like, the event or the fun or your experience of it. Like, what we're experiencing psychologically is the fear of the bonds that are happening between other people and the other relationships and missing out on that bonding. And that. That is just a very real evolutionary instinct we all have because of this exorcism from the tribe equals literal death. Like, you can't survive. So it's these remnants of, you know, another time when we really needed these capacities for fear and jealousy to keep us actually alive. And I think it is worth talking about because it makes it extra, more kind of shame feeling when you're like: "I'm in this happy relationship. Why am I, like, deeply jealous that, like, friends of mine have a new friend?" Or also, like, you know, when those friends then do, like, explore polyamory, or you have really close relationships that you're non sexually intimate with, but they're sexually intimate with others. The capacity to be able to have and hold and, like, maintain these relationships is awesome.

A: I 100% relate, Tory. I actually relate to so much of what you guys shared. It was really awesome to do this with you guys. So, one last question we like to ask for the podcast is what advice would you have for a monocurious person, given your experience? I know, like, we touched on a lot of things, so,

J: Yeah, I would just say it doesn't have to be boring. I think a lot of people think monogamy is just boring, and it's not interesting. I don't know. I feel the most interesting I've ever been. And I'm in a very serious monogamous relationship. So just rethink that. And why maybe you think that if you think that I love that.

T: I love that. It's a great answer.

A: That's, like, kind of the epitome of the monocurious journey from my eyes, is, like, why I wanted to create this podcast series, like, exploring that. So we appreciate that advice. Tory, do you have any. Any advice?

T: I was just gonna say, which I honestly feel like is not even specifically, you know, I think that my main piece of advice to anyone is the whole don't talk yourself into it. And that goes for anyone, for any relationship. It'll feel exciting if you want it. And that, I think, goes both ways. It's like, if, if you're having to talk yourself into a monogamous relationship, don't do it. If you're having to talk yourself into exploring polyamory because your partner wants you to, like, don't do it. Yeah. And I think, like, to. It's the add on to Jackson's, like, monogamy doesn't have to be boring. Monogamy doesn't have to be isolating either. You know, like, there is a world where being in a monogamous partnership can actually expand your capability for love and connection. And I think, you know, I often say, you know, Jackson was the first romantic relationship I encountered where it was the first time I ever felt like the possibilities expanded instead of diminished. And so I think that's, again, when I say, like, don't talk yourself into it. It's that, like, if you sense the diminishing, it's like, that's not it, because it can be more expansive. But I think your answer is better.

A: I think both are great. Both are great. Thank you so much. This was so lovely. I really enjoyed the conversation. I feel like we could have talked for hours, honestly.

F: Really appreciate you guys.

J: This is a lot of fun. Thank you.

T: We appreciate you. These are such enriching conversations to have and hear. You're both amazing.

F: And that's it for Monocurious. Thank you, everyone, so much for coming along this journey with us. If you have not yet subscribed, please make sure to do so. If you're not subscribed, you won't get that notification when our new episodes come out. The third season of Polycurious is coming out in March, and let me tell you, it's a really good one. Even if you're monogamous, I'm sure that you can learn a lot from these couples.