Zach: If you are not already giving yourself the nourishing love that you need when your partner is expressing love to somebody else, whatever you're already not feeling is just going to compound. So really take responsibility for providing the love that you need within the relationship. Don't put it on your partner.

Fernanda: Hi everyone, welcome to Polycurious. I am Fer host of this podcast. Today I had the pleasure to chat with Jess and Zach. Jess is a trauma centered relationship coach and a plant medicine guide and Zach is a breath work facilitator and a men's intimacy coach. Together they have the Sacred Ships podcast where I joined as a guest last year. I love today's conversation because both Jess and Zach are the kind of people who are really willing to put the hard work to improve themselves and their relationships. And today you'll hear about their whole evolution from being monogamous and going through a very tumultuous time to getting engaged to them breaking up and getting back together to open up their relationship. Although note that this interview was recorded about half a year ago, so I'm sure things have changed since then. In our conversation we also talk about how they both experienced sexual assault when they were teenagers and about how they learned to heal partly through their relationship. Zach opens up about how this drama led him to use porn in a way that actually affected his sexual performance and about all the self work that he had to do to get to a comfortable place with his sexuality. And having casual sex with other women and opening up their relationship was actually an important part of this process. Overall, I think their story really shows how relationships can really grow and evolve if and only if people are willing to really work on themselves. I hope that you enjoyed today's conversation as much as I did. Here's my interview with Jess and Zach.

F: Welcome guys to Polycurious. I'm so excited to have this conversation with you, especially after being on your podcast and also just listening to your podcast called Sacred Ships which everyone should go and check out. But yeah, why don't you take a moment to introduce yourselves to the listeners who haven't had the privilege to get to know you yet.

Z: My name is Zach, I am 31 years old from San Diego, California and I am a men's embodiment coach. One half of Sacred Ships with my partner Jessica and learning how to be in an open relationship each day.

Jessica: And then I am Jessica. I am also a coach. I do plant medicine, work with people and also really focus on trauma healing and nervous system regulation. And then together we do relationship coaching with couples.

F: Well, why don't you tell us a little bit about your backgrounds? I believe, Jess, that you grew up religiously. I don't know if that's the case with Zach, but how did you guys come across the concept of non-monogamy? Or when did you start even knowing that that existed?

Z: So I also grew up religious, not as religious as Jess, and grew up in a catholic school. But I grew up very sheltered and I was never, like, really exposed to sex. I grew up without my dad around. It was just me and my mom. And anytime there was like a sex scene on TV, it was that awkward moment where it's like: "Oh, I'm going to go to the bathroom" and get out of the situation as quickly as possible. So my introduction to sex, like so many young men these days, was through porn. And my first sexual experience that I ever had was unwanted. It was by an older, an older girl in high school. And it really scarred me and left a lasting imprint on every sexual encounter thereafter. And basically what would happen is anytime I had the opportunity to become physically intimate with a woman, I would just shut down. Like, my body would shut down. I suffered from performance anxiety. I would not be able to get hard. I would start profusely sweating. My heart would be out of my chest.

So all throughout my teenage years and my twenties, up until I met my ex wife, I was kind of scared of sex and scared of being intimate with other women because I was like, my body's just going to, not allow this to happen. And it was extremely embarrassing for me. I met my ex wife when I was 21. We got married at 25. And I, I was in that relationship until I was 28. So basically all throughout my twenties, I was with one single partner. And she was also very conservative. Our sex life after a while became very monotonous, very boring. And eventually it got to the point to where I wasn't even really interested in sex. And I was constantly going back to porn, because it was just a safer option. At least for me, it felt like a safer option. I didn't have to deal with any sort of performance anxiety. We went through a divorce in 2020. And when we went through that divorce, I knew there was a multitude of things that I wanted to work on, but the biggest thing was this sexual relationship with myself because I had looked back at my relationship, that relationship, and I was just like, you know, I'm in great shape, I'm a good looking guy, I'm young. I'm in like, the prime of my life. And it's like, why? Why do I have this relationship with sex? So from there, I just started picking up, like, taoist sexual practices and really kind of rewiring my brain. I cut out porn. I began being a little bit more open to being embarrassed in sexual situations, knowing that it was an opportunity to grow and learn about myself. And eventually I just got to the point to where I was very open about my past sexual trauma with other women. And having that conversation just really allowed me to be a more sexual being. When I met Jess, she just made me feel so comfortable in my own body. I think our relationship, like, really healed a lot of those sexual traumas that I was carrying for over a decade at that point. And from there, because I was more comfortable in my own body, I was much more willing to be more sexually explorative, both with myself and with Jess. But I never even really considered being open or non-monogamous until I met Jess. And she just kind of opened up Pandora's box and, yeah, I'll kind of let her take it from there.

F: Yeah. Before we go into that, because I do have a lot of questions and comments about what you just said. First of all, thank you for opening up about that. I feel like we hear especially a lot more these days about sexual abuse done to women, but it also happens to men. And I'm sorry that, you know, you went through that experience. It sounds like at a young age. And, you know, as you said, the more open you were about it, the better you were able to deal with it. And not only that, but also you were like: "Okay, I'm going to actually do something about it." So I'm also curious, like, if we have listeners out there who might also have some sort of sexual trauma, what is it that you did to overcome that you mentioned being more vulnerable, you mentioned. So did you say tao practices?

Z: Yeah, taoist sexual practices.

F: What's that tell us about that?

Z: Yeah, so, taoist sexual practices. The most common practice that you'll hear about is, either like, semen retention or edging, where you masturbate. But you don't masturbate to as the goal of being an orgasm. It's just to kind of circulate sexual energy within your body. And you're really just focusing on your breath and your energy. You're not creating some sort of fantasy inside your head. And as somebody who, you know, was more comfortable watching porn than actually having sex with my partner, that was extremely difficult to start because I used to need so much visual stimulation in order to turn myself on. So, and I would say, like spark notes, taoist sexual practices is kind of like the art of turning yourself on with no other stimulants.

F: So you took that upon yourself as a challenge to practice that without watching porn. And did that. Did that help?

Z: Yeah, it. It took a while. It took a few months. And when I say it took a few months, like, it didn't take a few months to kind of develop the practice, but it did take a few months for it to transfer over to actually having sex with a woman. Because it's very different. I think a lot of... I feel like there is a certain amount of pressure that men put on ourselves to perform, and when you deal with that, it takes you out of your body and into your head, and it's. That's a really difficult pattern to. To get out of once it started. So definitely be patient with yourself because it's going to take a while, especially if you've been watching porn for 10, 15, 20 years. And I don't want to necessarily demonize porn, but it was at that time in my life, it was not helping me whatsoever, and it was severely hindering my sexual growth.

F: Yeah. And I've heard that from other guys as well, that porn ruins their sexual experiences in a way. And I'm wondering, I mean, this is my theory, is that it's because they start thinking of porn as real sex. You know, like, they start expecting what they see in porn in real life, and then it becomes a little disappointing because, you know, maybe not every woman they sleep with has huge boobs and wants to spend 20 minutes giving them a blowjob, you know, or whatever it is that they see, right? I don't know if I'm right about that or why. Do you think that watching porn affected the way you related to, to women?

Z: I think what you just said is very true for a lot of men. For me personally, and I don't want to speak for all men that have gone through some sort of sexual abuse, but for me personally, it was a way to cultivate sexual energy that had very low stakes. Anytime I put myself out there, went on a date and went home with a woman, the date would go well. You know, the kissing would go well. And then the second we got into the bedroom and I knew we were going to have sex or at least be, you know, intimate with one another, I would shut down and I would get so. So nervous that, again, I won't to be able to perform. And I just hated being in that situation. So, for me, porn was, like, just this. It was a safety blanket. It was really, I felt like, the only safe place for me to come, you know?

F: Yeah. Okay. Yeah. No, actually, that makes sense as well, because it's not just the expectations you have on the person you're having sex with, it's also the expectations you have on yourself, right? But it's again, it's this idea of thinking that porn is real sex. And I think that. I don't think there's anything wrong about porn, but, yeah, I think that it's important for people to know that it's staged. Right? Like, that's not real sex, and that's not how real sex needs to be. That's not how you need to perform.

Z: Right.

J: There's also a pretty substantial amount of research that shows that basically, the more important you watch, it desensitizes you. And so, just from a, like, chemical perspective, whenever we do anything for instant gratification, it gives us, like, a dopamine hit. And so it sort of trains our system to, like, have these really high peaks and then crashes and then peaks and crashes. What it can do is create this, like, constant need for more. And so the type of porn you're watching also tends to progress depending on, like, how you're engaging with it and how often you're engaging with it. So that, like, what you guys are already saying about people expecting what they're seeing important in real life, it's like, what they're even watching in porn is escalating and escalating and escalating, because what they started watching is no longer giving them the same dopamine hit that it once was. And so then, with that constant escalation scale, it's like real sex could never compare, even though it maybe once could with the porn that they once were watching.

F: Yeah. Last question about this, and we can move on to you, Jess. But Zach, and it's okay if you don't want to share this, but what's your relationship to porn at the moment? Are you still abstaining from it? Or do you feel like now that you've, in a way, healed yourself, you're able to reengage with it in a different way?

Z: Yeah, I am reengaging with it in a very different way now. I abstained from it for a very, very long time. And then when Jess and I opened our relationship and I started to have sexual, multiple sexual experiences with different women on a somewhat frequent basis. I was just kind of interested in, like, the world of kink. And, you know, what turned me on and kind of like, what different kinks looked like. And, you know, a lot of people would be like: "Yeah, that's bullshit." But I kind of felt like I was, like, I was, like, studying. Like, I was. I was doing my homework, you know? Yeah. So, yeah, I have a very different relationship with it now. I use it very sparingly. You know, sometimes I will go weeks, months without watching it, and then all day will come up and be like: "You know what? I really want to watch porn." And I watch it and I masturbate, and it doesn't deplete me the way it normally does. I actually, like, feel good afterwards, and then it's like "Okay, I did it." And it doesn't have to be a consistent part of my life. Now, before I move on, the one thing I do want to say is men that have been sexually assaulted, I feel like a lot of us just deny it. And that's what I did for years.

It took me actually going to therapy and seeing a sex therapist before I actually used the word assault to describe what happened to me, because I thought I did something wrong in that situation. And it was so embarrassing for me. I thought, like: "Oh, I wasn't being a man" and because I wasn't able to perform like, I did something wrong. But I think a lot of men that have been sexually assaulted don't even realize that what happened to them is being stored as a trauma.

F: Yeah, that's a good point, because also we have this idea that women can't rape men because, you know, men need to be hard. And if you're hard, then that means that it's consensual. I don't think that's necessarily true. And I think that might also be part of the reason why men are not as open or even, like, let themselves see whatever they experience as assault. Okay, well, Jess, go for it. Tell us about you after this little deviation to talk about porn.

J: Yeah, so I grew up in Ohio in a catholic household, and I went to catholic school from, like, kindergarten to my senior year, which was also an all girls school. And it was super tiny. I mean, I had friends and, like, social circles outside of that, but it was relatively, you know, sheltered. And my mom is, like, pretty socially liberal, so it's not like I was in the most conservative household on the planet, but she's also very catholic, and I definitely remember, like, abstinence, speakers coming into my school when I was in high school. And on my own accord, I just sort of decided that I didn't want to have penetrative sex with anyone until I was in love with them. So I was physical with some people here and there in high school and college, but I also lost my virginity with an assault. And, it also took me a really long time to realize that that's where it was coming from. And for me, the person that this encounter occurred with, knew that I didn't want to have that experience unless I was in love. So there was just a lot of, like, mental confusion around what even happened. And then the way that my system chose to process that was a lot of my identity was wrapped around kind of being the virgin in, like, my high school friend group. And just like, this thing that I held with a lot of honor. And so when that happened, the first person that I told about it said: "Congratulations." And she didn't know the details of the story, otherwise she probably wouldn't have said that. But it really silenced what my story was. And so from that point on, for, like, six years, my whole internal, like, perspective on sex was: "Okay, well, I'm ruined because this thing happened to me. So now basically, like, whoever wants to have sex with me can." And then I started dissociating every time I was intimate with someone. So I would, like, completely black out. And after it got to a certain level of energy exchange, and I didn't really understand what was going on, but I was a doctor of physical therapy, and my specialty was pelvic PT.

So as I started working with people, I started working with people who had been raped and assaulted and learned about their dissociation. And once those wheels started spinning, I finally realized, like: "Oh, shit, like, I actually am dealing with the same thing you are dealing with. I just didn't know it." And so I started processing that. Plant medicine really, really helped me with that process. And at some point on that journey, I found a woman that, like, the second we met, I was just like: "I like, love you." And she kind of felt the same. And it was this little whirlwind romance, but I had never dated a woman before, and so that was, like, a whole other journey taking place simultaneously where I was just like, for a year, I was like, I'm not bisexual. I just like this one woman. And then I was meditating one day, and I had this flood of memories come back of, like, all of the times being younger where I had fantasized about women and then literally prayed to goddess that those, like, quote unquote temptations would be taken away because I thought I was going to go to hell sort of intermittently throughout life. I, like, those fantasies would come back, and probably by the time I was 20, I had, like, prayed them away enough that I convinced my brain not to think like that. And so when I had this meditation, I was like: "Oh, my God, like, interesting. I've always been bisexual, and I just convinced myself, like, not to be" until I met the one woman who, like, got past that training modality, I guess.

So before I met Zach, I had dated a couple of people, and there was someone that I expressed to that I was bisexual. And it was fine. Like, they were accepting, whatever, but when I had talked to them about potentially being in an open relationship later, they just, like, couldn't even handle the concept of it. And so when Zach and I first started seeing each other, something that I had expressed to him is like: "Hey, like, I like women too. And at the end of the day, you don't have the body parts or the same energy that I'm attracted to in that form. And so even though I'm really into you right now, and you're the only person that I want to be with right now, at some point, there may be, like, a woman who enters my life that I just, like, really want to engage with. And it's important to me to have this conversation up front, because if you're totally close to that idea, like, that's kind of a deal breaker for me." And thus began the miscommunications in our relationship. Zach was kind of like: "Yeah, sure, like, that sounds great. I love every part of you" and I think, I mean, I don't really want to speak for you, but from him, his perspective, from what we were talking about he was kind of like: "That feels really far in the distance, and I really like this person, so, like, sure, whatever, and also, it's just going to be a woman, so. Sure, whatever." And then throughout our relationship, like, I started feeling more and more drawn to have the conversation about opening up, but I didn't really feel comfortable bringing it up. And, yeah, eventually, that resulted in, like, us not having conversations about boundaries before we should have. And then there was a situation where, like, we went through quite a tumultuous time because we. Because I hadn't been brave enough to, like, bring that to the surface, basically.

F: Right. Why don't you guys talk a little bit about that? Because I heard about that experience from your episode, and I think it's really interesting because it's not like you broke a boundary that you had established, but it's the type of, like, gray area where a lot of couples often have a really hard time, especially when they open up. And at this point, you guys hadn't even opened up. But, you know, like, a lot of couples open up, and then one person has one idea of what that means, and the other person has a different idea. Tell us about what happened and what you guys learned from that experience.

Z: Yeah. So Jess had left for the jungle. She was training in Peru. And, you know, doing ayahuasca is, over the course of three nights is no easy feat. Doing it three nights in a row with one night off over the course of two months is extremely difficult. And inevitably, Jess had some difficult nights where she wasn't comfortable going to bed by herself because she was scared. The end of an ayahuasca ceremony could be earth shattering. And then when you're in the middle of the jungle, it could be even more terrifying. And Jess had a brother figure there who just offered, a level of intimacy that I have never been comfortable sharing with women or men. And when that level of intimacy was shared with Jess it really just, like, shook my foundation. And, this level of intimacy was just cuddling. Like, in hindsight, it feels so silly to me, but at the time, it was such a breach of trust, and it was not something that I was comfortable with.

J: Yeah. And I think, like, it's quite the complicated situation, because something worth noting is, like, while I'm training in the jungle, there's really no service. And at the place where there is service, it's inconsistent. And also, even though there is service, sometimes it's like you're kind of there to not communicate with the outside world. So I had made this agreement, like, with myself and with the way that I was studying and connecting with the earth, that I wasn't going to communicate with the outside world for the at least the first month. And Zach was, like, aware of this, but then this situation is unfolding. You know, like, this person was providing me a lot of support. And also, it was, like, initially, maybe at times, when I, like, really didn't feel comfortable being by myself. But then the lines got blurred where it was like: "Okay, this was nice. And now I'm used to this sort of thing." And really, the ideal situation would have been after the first time I would have contacted Zach and been like: "Hey, by the way, da da da." And he could have said: "No, I'm not cool with that."

And the whole thing would have shut off. But because of what I was going through and not communicating with the outside world, by the time we had this conversation, it had been a month. So, like, that's definitely, like, part of the problem. But then also on top of that, like, I have always been really comfortable with touch. It's one of the things for my whole life, that has been the only thing that eases my anxiety. So, like, if I know your name, I'm, and I'm standing next to you, I'm probably touching you unless you've told me not to. And Zach, when we met, wasn't even really comfortable hugging people besides me until he, like, started breaking through these barriers. So there's a lot that went into how much energy was being carried around this situation. And I had wanted to talk about opening our relationship and boundaries, like, that July before I went, but because of what Zach was going through, I didn't really feel comfortable. And then when all this stuff happened, it's like, I didn't even really think about it being, like, something that was going to totally derail our relationship. And if I had just had that conversation with you and we had created clear boundaries, then this wouldn't have happened.

F: Yeah. And just to clarify, this person you were cuddling with was just a friend. You had no romantic feelings for him. And I'm not sure if you guys were cuddling after ceremony in the Maloka or if you were cuddling, like, in private, just the two of you.

J: So, yeah, so most of it was, like, in the Maloka after ceremony, there was, like, some private engagement, but it. It really, like, that was few and far between it. And I think, like, what was so hard in our communication of it is, like, I have had experiences with friends that are purely platonic and not sexual. And also, like, when you're in the jungle doing this work, part of the work of, like, deep, meditative, spiritual work is often learning how to turn off your sexual energy so that you're not, like, overpowering the energy of the plants or of God or whatever it is that you're connecting with, with sexual energy. And it's not that sex is demonized or anything. It's just that, like, while I'm doing this, I can't be doing that because they're combative energies with each other. So on top of the fact that I really am just friends with this person, like, our sexual channels were, like, totally shut down. And that was just, like, kind of hard for Zach to understand. When we were talking about it, he was just like: "But this is a guy, and I just know that if you're cuddling with him, he's thinking other things because you're beautiful." And I'm like: "But it's not what's happening."

F: So, yeah, I also want to talk about the way that Zach reacted to that, because you are obviously a very sweet, caring partner, and we all have moments losing control because of how you are feeling. And I feel like jealousy is one of those feelings that really kind of overtakes us.

Z: Yeah. When Jess first shared the news, I took it really well. And over the course of, like, 6 hours I just kind of, like, devolved into this insanely jealous, petty person. I was. Yeah. I just couldn't see the gray area between platonic friendship and a sexual relationship with somebody. In my mind, touch was so closely linked to sexual energy. I was like, there's absolutely no way, like, this man is going to sleep cuddling my partner. And there's, like, no, there's no sexual charge. So, yeah, I was extremely angry. I would write out, like, these very, very long messages through WhatsApp. Like: "How could you do this? You don't really love me. Like, I have no respect for this man that's doing this. Like, he should have reached out to me and, like, asked for my permission." And, yeah, I would just write these messages and send them off. And, like, the next morning, I would wake up and just be like: "Oh, my God, what have you done?" And it was just a roller coaster of: "I'm okay with this, and I love Jesse, and I'm not okay with this, and she betrayed me" and it was extremely difficult.

F: Yeah. I mean, I think that the fact that you guys couldn't actually, like, have a proper conversation face to face also made things more difficult. I had a long distance relationship once. He lived in Cuba. I mean, we, like, literally wrote emails to each other because calling was expensive, and he could only write when he went to his dad's house. We were also going through stuff, and I remember how frustrating it was to have all these feelings and not being able to just call that person up and, like, have a conversation about it. So I'm sure that that just made everything, like, so much more difficult. But how did you guys go from there to opening up their relationship.

J: By the time I was leaving the jungle, it sort of felt like we had worked through it a lot. But then when I got back, it was like, well, we haven't worked through it in person, so now we have to do it all over again. And there would just be, like, triggers here and there of, like, again and again and again, honestly, repeatedly, for, like, months. And then it sort of felt like we were working our way out of it. Like, we would come to these places where it was like: "Okay, we're finally back." And then I maybe something else would happen and maybe would be like, we weren't actually getting to the place where, like, we were fully aligned. In the midst of this, we got engaged. So that was, like, a huge factor where it was like, we know we want to be together. But this isn't really the energy in which we wanted to get engaged in, but it was already planned, and so, like, that really complicated everything we were processing. And so, like, eventually, at some point in March, we decided, like: "Okay, we're not going to be engaged anymore." Maybe that will relieve some of the pressure. And then I was like: "You know, because we got engaged during that time period, I almost feel like I didn't get to choose to be engaged with you. Like, it was kind of like, well, I have to say yes. Cause I want to be, but I don't really" like, feel it right now, you know? And so I was like, maybe I just need to, like, flirt with other people. Like, maybe we can open up just a little bit, and I can flirt with other people, and that will give me enough energy exchanges elsewhere that, like, I'll be able to choose you again. And then a week goes by, and I'm like, actually, I need to go on dates with other people and, like, express that way with people. And then a week goes by, and I'm like: "Actually, I think I need to move out." And then a week goes by, and I'm like: "Actually, I think we need to break up." So when we started being open, it actually wasn't like, we're together, and we're going to open up. Like, I realized that even though I was willing to explore other people while we were together, Zach was really in this place of, like: "If I didn't say, no, we're broken up, and you have to assume that we're not getting back together." He wouldn't have explored, like, dating other people, and I really, like, knew in my soul that there was just other people that had what I call keys for us that we weren't able to give each other, that if we were ever going to work out, like, we needed these keys from other people. And so in order for that to happen, like, both of us had to be seeing other people.

F: What do you mean that people had keys for you guys? And how did you know if you had never been in an open relationship before?

J: So some of that just comes, like,

from my perspective on life, I really feel like every energy exchange matters. And whether it's like I'm holding the door open for someone or I actually have, like, an in depth conversation with someone, like, we're all carrying these different energy particles, like, way far out from our body all the time. And every time particles interact, it shifts them in some capacity. And so I really feel like because of that, every energy exchange matters. And then when you start connecting with people deeper, it's like your energy is really transferring in a totally different way.

And so, because we had been stuck in this place for so long, it just seemed clear that, like, we weren't able to shift our particles or whatever enough, or provide each other with the information that we needed to, like, fully resolve this and with having our own sexual traumas, something that was really, really beautiful about, like, Zach and Jess 1.0, as we like to call it. is that we. Because we had this understanding of what each other had been through, we were able to be, like, extremely patient and compassionate with each other when we were being physically intimate. And so there were so many times where I would realize that, like: "Okay, Zach, I'm not feeling my legs anymore. Like, we need to stop being intimate so that I can get back in my body." And there was a lot of, like, being in the middle of something and slowing down or maybe being in the middle of something and stopping. And me, like, learning not to feel guilt for saying no or, like, I have to pause halfway through. Sorry. And by way of having that space and creating that space for each other, we really got to heal, like, those traumas in a way that I never would have been able to or Zach wouldn't have been able to by himself. But because we were so, like, loving and compassionate with each other in that space, it felt like we weren't then able to, like, break through this barrier to then access other types of sexual energy exchanges.

F: Right. Like, healing is not necessarily sexy.

J: Exactly. And it, like, was amazing because we wouldn't be able to access the other stuff.

F: Yeah, it's beautiful. Healing is beautiful. But one thing is beautiful, another thing is sexy. And you probably want both things, right?

J: Exactly. Exactly. It's like people want to make love and they also want to fuck and, like, they're not really the same energy. And it's also a spectrum and there's some crossover, but it's like, because so much of our experience had been based on allowing each other to heal, it's like we couldn't cross through that threshold. So besides feeling like people had keys for us, just like, intellectually and emotionally, that would occur in the space that we were taking. It was also, like, really strongly related to sexual experience. It's like, I feel like if we just were intimate with, like, one other person each, even though it ended up being more for Zach, like, it only really took one person for each of us to, like, flip the switch for us to be able to access the alternative energy and.

F: Yeah, and also, I mean, sounds like you were feeling a little, like, suffocated, right? Like, you were like: "Oh, now we gotta get married. And now I cannot really express my desires because how could I ask him to be open if we're still getting over that I cuddled with this guy." Right? So, like, I think it was also you, like, trying to trying to scape a little bit and get some freedom and independence. But, yeah, I'm interested to hear Zach. How did you react when she told you that, or when you guys broke up and how did things move from there?

Z: Yeah, I did not carry the same knowing that other people had keys for us. And because of my sexual history, I didn't think being open or poly was for me because it would take me so long to become comfortably or sexually comfortable with somebody. I was like: "There's no way I could be open because it takes months for me to, like, build up that emotional trust to have sex with somebody." So I was devastated when Jess moved out, I was like: "Everything's going to be okay." When I saw her car in the driveway one day when I wasn't expecting her, I already knew what was going to happen before I entered the door. And I was really crushed when we broke up. But also at that time, because I felt like I couldn't be in an open relationship. It did feel very, clean is the word I want to use to, to let her go and explore that, because I just knew, like, it was something she had to explore. And I also just felt like we couldn't be in a relationship while she was doing that because I was just too sensitive.

So, yeah, I was, I was really crushed. And there's a difference between making love and fucking. And my entire sexual resume in the past was only making love because I was so uncomfortable carrying dark sexual energy. Like, it made me feel unsafe. Even if it was wanted from my partner, I just cannot harness it. So, like Jess said, like, this, this rift with us sexually was also a big part of us breaking up. And again, when Jess left, I was like: "Okay, I need to focus on, like, what needs to be healed within me so that I don't make the same mistake again." And just like, when I went through that divorce and I was like: "Okay, I need to, like, uncover this sexual dysfunction that I feel that I have." When Jess left, I was like: "Okay, I need to turn on the dark sexual energy and be able to harness this. I want to be able to tap into it and I want to be able to provide that for a partner, but I just couldn't." So I downloaded Feeld and so I was like, where do I meet people that are open or poly? Because I didn't want to just jump into another relationship. And I also wanted to learn more about the lifestyle. I just wanted to meet other women or other couples that had the same expansive view of what love and intimacy can be. So I start going on dates. And all this healing that Jess and I had done sexually transferred over to me.

Finally being confident enough sexually to go on a date. And if a woman invited me back to her place or if I invited her back to mine, then I trusted my body enough to, to perform sexually. So even though when Jess was like: You know, other people have keys for us" and I was like: "Yeah, that's fucking bullshit. Nobody has keys for me." They really like these experiences that I had with these other women, those were the keys. Like, I needed to experience that, that trust in my body to perform. I don't even like to use the word perform, just. Just be able to, like, to fuck, you know, it was just like I was. For the first time in my life, I was able to have sex with a stranger that I was attracted to without any, like, unneeded pressure that I was putting on myself or anxiety. And it was, like, really beautiful. And my relationship with myself sexually totally changed after that. And this was the first time I would have sex with somebody and be like: "Okay, that was fun, and I never need to see you again, and that's okay." And being able to have that experience really open my mind to what physical intimacy can be. It's like: "Oh, I can have sex with somebody and not immediately fall in love with them." A lot of people may listen to this and be like: "You know, oh how healing can a one night stand be? Or how healing could, like, quote unquote promiscuous sex be?" But for me, it was. It was extremely healing, and it taught me to love myself and express love in a very different way that in the past I was not comfortable doing.

F: Yeah, I do think that it can be, like, a confidence booster, right? Because when you go and see other people being attracted to you, or simply when you go on a date with someone that you don't know that well, it kind of, like, helps you see yourself through different eyes and, like, feel confident if you feel connected towards someone and they feel connected to you. And of course, it's not like you cannot have that inside of your relationship. But it's very easy for us as humans to get very content and, like, kind of like, it's the same all the time, and it's monotonous. And just going out and having a date kind of sparked the fire in your own relationship.

J: It's funny because as he's telling this story, I'm, like, recalling after, like, the first time he was with someone, we, like, got dinner, or you took me to get food, some pick up food or something. But he, like, told me this while I was waiting in line to get my food, and I was literally, like: "Yes, like, totally abnormal reaction from an ex. But I'm so proud of you, and I'm so happy that you got to have that experience."

F: What did he tell you exactly?

J: I think it was just, like: "I had sex with someone and I didn't, like, have performance anxiety, and I was able to perform in a way that I'm really happy with." And I could just tell that he was proud of his body and the way that the interaction went. And later, there was a conversation or two where more specifics about one girl or another was shared, and I was just like: "Ick. I don't know if I want to hear that." But in that particular experience, like, because I knew how meaningful that would be for him and how healing that was for him, I was just, like, so happy that he got to have that experience, you know?

F: Yeah, yeah, that sounds awesome. And how did you guys go from that to getting back together?

Z: It was quite a process. It wasn't like, you know, I was able to tap into this energy, and, I just saw me in a different light. I really had to give Jess. I was still completely in love with her, and I felt to my core that she was my person, and I also had to give her space and respect that space, which is really difficult for me because I definitely have an anxious attachment style. So I even though I was, like, having these amazing sexual experiences with other women, emotionally, I was still very raw. And there were so many times where I just wanted to reach out to her, call or text her or, like, see her, and I just didn't. I felt like I just had to be strong and give her the space and allow her to come back to me so we, you know, would see each other here and there, but we weren't. Like, our goal was not to, like, immediately just get back together. It took a while to get there.

J: Yeah. And a big piece of this story, which we sort of, like, left out because it's not totally related to the opening and closing of it, is that there was, like, a long period of the first part of our relationship where I felt like I was holding a lot of space for Zach that he wasn't able to hold for himself. So then when we went through this whole process with, like, the jungle and stuff, that's really when I reached my capacity is just like, I can't hold this space for you anymore, because now that, with, this is, like, too much. So while he was doing his thing, when we were broken up, I, like, met someone who's in an open relationship almost, like, immediately, and who had a primary, these people that had been doing open relating for a while, and they were a really solid couple, and actually, we're both really good friends with them now. I got to kind of have a safe heaven with that person for a little while, and then really, like, what allowed me to come back to Zach was, like, all of the work that he did, you know, like, in addition to just, like, hooking up with women that weren't me, he was, like, studying all the time how to, like, get rid of the insecurities that had led to the issues within our relationship.

And so he, like, read a bunch of different books about how to be more secure in a relationship and things like that, and then, like, found your podcast and listened to a lot of those episodes, which really helped. And a lot of what I now know about, like, how to be in a successful, open relationship comes from the information that Zach actually learned. You know, I'm kind of, like: "I love everyone, and it will just work out." And Zach's like: "I need to know how to do this", you know, and, like, that really helped us. And just by way of us slowly starting to interact again, I got to really witness, like, how he was starting to show up for himself in a different way because he was holding that space for himself when he was going through, like, difficult days instead of, like, reaching out and just dumping on me. And we had bought tickets to Lightning In a Bottle festival, and so we were broken up, but we had decided to still go in May, and Zach did this, like, really beautiful, like, little ceremony in our tent that just expressed to me, like, his gratitude to me for, you know, the shifts that I was able to create for him and just what our relationship was. And a lot of that expression of love was much more like: "No matter what happens, like, I'll always be here for you. Like, I'll always be your safe space. And, like, who knows what's what if we're going to come back together, but, like, I'm never going to leave you." And it's really, like, what I needed to hear to start opening up to him. Like: "Okay, I can have Zach in my life forever, and it doesn't have to be a relationship. It doesn't have to be a monogamous relationship. Like, I don't know what it's going to look like, but I can start exploring him in my life again without trying to fit him into this whole." And, yeah, slowly but surely, we, like, reunited in a way where we were, like, we're definitely each other's people. So now what?

F: That's awesome. Yeah, it sounds like, you know, when he gave you unconditional love, that's when you were like: "Okay, this feels right." I wanted Zach to talk about how being in an open relationship made you feel more secure.

Z: Well, Jess and I were broken up, and I started to go on dates and have sex with different women. I started to open up to the idea of, like: "Hey, maybe I can do this. Maybe I can be an open relationship, but what do I have to do in order, to do this successfully? And it just kept coming back to learning to love myself and accept myself for who I am. And that was something that was, like, in my opinion, like, kind of the demise of our first relationship is I didn't trust myself and I was extremely hard on myself, and I just would get in these negative thought loops, and I just stopped accepting that. And I started to love myself unconditionally and by proxy, was able to understand and love Jess unconditionally.

So now I am in an open relationship. But it's the most secure I've ever been because I know no matter what happens with Jess and I. I won't abandon myself, and I will always be able to provide the love that I need for myself. And I'm not handing over the reins or giving all that power to my partner. It's like I harness it for myself. If I was going to choose Jess for everything that she is and will be, I had to first unconditionally love myself because that's what our partners need from us. And if you can't provide it for yourself, how can you provide it for your partner?

F: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And another reason why you were open to being open was because of your experience meeting this man that just started dating that also had a primary. So can you tell us about that experience?

Z: Yeah. So, in the past, anytime Jess had ever expressed physical intimacy with a platonic male friend, it would trigger so much jealousy within me. Like, even just holding a hand with somebody that I deeply love and trust would get to me. So going into meeting Jess's male partner, because Jess cared for him so much, I trusted that he was, like, a pretty good guy. But also, I was still going into meeting him With some hesitation and with some jealousy and being like, what does this guy have that I don't? But then when I met him, he was.

I saw so much of myself in him. And when I say that, I mean, like, I saw the love that he had for Jess, and I felt that she was safe with him. And because of that, it just really melted away any, like, insecurity or fear that I had about Jess being with this person. And he's. He's just, like, a great guy, and it's, like, somebody that I am friends with now. When I met him, I was like, I think I could be friends with this guy. And I'm very selective about, like, who I choose to, like, bring into my life. So I am, like, extremely grateful that was the person that just chose, or they chose each other. They found each other, however you want to phrase it. Because if I had sat down across from another man who didn't respect Jess or love Jess or feel a need to hold her heart in the way that I do, that could have been the end of me exploring an open relationship. And I just feel extremely grateful to this person that he was the one.

F: Yeah. And that also says a lot about you. Right? Because instead of liking him and thinking: "Oh, he has all these things that I don't have," and getting into your head about it and making it about you and your ego. You were like: "He cares for Jess, and I care for her, too." Like; "We're on the same team." And, you know, that really goes to show that, like, you are not selfishly relating to Jess, but that you are actually caring for her, you know?

Z: Yeah. Yeah. It was a beautiful moment, for sure.

F: So how long ago was that and how have things progressed from there? Jess, are you still dating this person or are you just friends at this point?

J: So it's interesting. What seemed to happen is, as Zach and I recalibrated towards each other, both of our desires to, like, explore with other people kind of settled. And so I just recently had a conversation with this person, actually, to, like, fully, like, make sure we were on the same page. But technically, Zach and I still consider ourselves open, and we don't really have, like, any boundaries on our relationship other than if there's someone that either of us is interested in, like, tell each other first. But because we're in this transition phase of, like, okay, fully being back together, I just moved in fully two weeks ago. It feels like our hearts and, like, bodies and minds really just want to, like, if we're not doing other things for business or school or socially, like, we really just want to be together. And so like, my thoughts on this person in particular, because they're definitely going to be in our lives forever, just as, like, friends anyway, is that our connection may sort of, like, come in and out of life in its intensity or, like, shape shift in whatever is relevant to the moment. Both of us really honored the intensity at which we connected at the time. And I got so many gifts and understandings from him and, like, how him and his partner make their relationship work and, like, do open relating so honorably. And then, you know, the way that he expresses it is just that like, I had a really positive impact on the changes that he was able to make in the past few months, too. And so it really feels like the intensity at which we came together, like, physically and emotionally and energetically, was with purpose to, like, create these massive shifts within each other. And so we still love each other and we're still attracted to each other, but I. The desire right now just isn't really present because we're doing other stuff. And so currently, Zach and I are only seeing each other. But again, like, we have the freedom to see other people. It's just not where our energy is tracking right now.

F: Yeah. Which I think that it's beautiful that you guys are able to recognize kind of the fluid nature of relationships and, you know, to be open to do whatever feels right instead of, like, forcing a specific relationship structure. You guys, like, obviously have done a lot of work, and yeah. And how about Zach? Have you been dating? Or, I mean, before you guys closed or. Well, momentarily closed right now as you, like, move back together?

Z: No, I haven't. What actually happened with me is I got polysaturated. I was going out on so many dates and having sex with so many different women. It actually got to a point to where I. I just felt, like, really depleted. And when I got to that point, I was like, you know what? I am just going to focus on myself, focus on school, and focus on building this relationship, this new relationship with Jess again.

And yeah, I haven't dated anybody in a while, but that was the culmination of really exploring to the fullest extent what being solo poly is like. And that was a really beautiful lesson because I realized I don't have the emotional capacity to be connecting with so many different women over the course of a week or a month or multiple months.

F: Yeah, I'm glad that you had that period, because I feel like that's somewhat important to kind of know what you like, know what you don't like. But, yeah, I'm also glad that you guys are also listening to what your relationship needs and just being. Being closed for the time being. Is there anything you guys want to add before the last question?

Z: I just like to throw this in there. The first time Jess and I had sex, when we came back together, was the best sex I've ever had in my entire life. I didn't have any toys on me, but I grabbed my belt, I tied her up, and it was. It was hot, and it was amazing. Yeah, it was the first time she got to experience. That was the first time I got to experience it with her, and it was like, oh, it was hot.

J: Thanks for that.

F: Oh, amazing. I mean, I like. I like that you added that, because it just goes to show that the work does pay off, you know? And. And obviously, you have both done a lot of work on yourself. And I think that at the end of the day, that's what's really important. If there's communication and willingness to change and evolve, I feel like couples can overcome everything. Also, the experience that you both have had, because that's another thing, right? Like, the more people you have sex with, the more experience you have and the more, like, tricks you learn and the more things that you can bring into your relationship. But so you guys did manage to go from the beautiful to the sexy. So that's going to be the end of the story for this episode.

But before we wrap up, yeah. What would you guys tell to a polycurious person, to the listeners who might just be starting to explore, what do you wish that you knew when you started?

Z: I would recommend to focus on the relationship with yourself, because if you are not already giving yourself the nourishing love that you need when your partner is expressing love to somebody else, whatever you're already not feeling is just going to compound. So I would just say, really take responsibility for providing the love that you need within the relationship. Don't put it on your partner.

J: And then for me, it's kind of like polycurious or poly or monogamous or whatever you are. Like, I feel like having conversations about your boundaries and what your ideal relationship looks like is essential and is something that, you know, when you're in an open relationship and a poly relationship that just kind of comes m naturally. But it's a shame that that's not, like, the norm for everyone across the board because that's really, like, where all of our stuff started is us not having those conversations of, like, are you cool if we cuddle other people? Are you cool if we do this with other people? Like, from the get go? And something that I've noticed with, like, couples that we've like, started coaching or consulted with is that they start exploring the poly world, maybe even just a little bit, but they haven't talked about, like, what they are wanting. They just start dating someone, and then one person wants that third person to be a certain thing to them, and the other person wants that person to be something else. And it's like you sort of don't know exactly what you want until you start exploring. But it's good to, like, be on the same page, either really clear with yourself if you're solo poly or, like, on the same page with your partner from the get go, and then if you want to change from there, it's fine. But, like, you can really save a lot of hardship and headaches if there's some clarity from the start.

F: That's an excellent point because, yeah, we often don't have those conversations. And even if you have the conversation of: "Oh, I want to open up. Okay, me too." What does that actually mean? Right. And even if you don't know exactly, because you can only know through experience, you can talk about what that would look like, even in theory. So, yeah, I think what you guys both said are great, great tips, and thank you guys so much for being so open and vulnerable and for all your wisdom this episode.

J: Yeah, thank you for having us.

Z: Thank you so much.

F: Thank you, everyone for listening to today's episode. If you want to connect with Jess and Zach, you can find them on

Instagram, Sacred

Ships, or follow the link in the show

notes there. You can also find a link to their

podcast where I was a guest last year, in case you are,

are interested to check that out. If you enjoyed this

episode and thought of a friend of yours who might find it

helpful, please don't forget to share it with them.