Philip: You have to reprogram your brain to feel and think differently about that certain thing. The only way to do that is to continue to remind yourself, it's okay to have sex. It's okay to be gay. It's okay to, like, have gay sex. Like, all of these things were the things that I was struggling with. And you don't believe it in the beginning, but if you continue to tell yourself: "Why am I feeling this way? Okay, I'm feeling this way because I was told to feel this way. What I'm doing is nothing wrong." You begin to believe it.

Fernanda: Hi, everyone. Welcome to Polycurious. I am Fer your host. And today I spoke to Philip, the host of the Dear Poly podcast. I connected with him last year over Instagram, and I was a guest on his podcast. I really enjoyed that conversation. You can go and check out that episode by following the link in the show notes. And what I love about today's conversation with him is that he spoke very honestly about his experience. We go deep into Phillip's coming out story and how he had to break so much stigma in his religious community in Missouri to eventually just be his true self as a gay and non-monogamous person.

It does take us a little while to get to the non monogamy part, but I thought Phillip's background was fascinating, and I really wanted to dig deep in that aspect because it really does inform how he is doing relationships today. If you have ever had a hard time letting go of shame, be it as a queer person, non-monogamous person, or simply someone with a high sex drive, I think you will resonate with this episode. But before we start, I wanted to quickly remind you that I am taking clients for relationship coaching. So if you feel like you or you and your partner or partners need some support, either navigating non-monogamy or if you're monogamous, just learning how to communicate better, how to overcome conflict better, we can set up a time to chat totally free of charge, just to see where I might be able to help you. You can write to my email, polycuriouspodcast@gmail.com, or to my Instagram, Polycuriouspodcast. And talking about Instagram. Philip and I are actually doing an IG live this Sunday at 05:00 p.m. eastern. So if you like what you hear during today's episode and would like to ask us more questions, please join us. I think it will be super fun. And again, all you have to do is follow me on Instagram. Polycuriouspodcast and show up at 05:00 p.m. eastern time this Sunday, April 9.

Here's my conversation with Philip from Dear Poly.

F: So, Philip, welcome to Polycurious. I'm so excited to have you and to be able to chat again. And this time, I'll be the one asking you questions, because I've been in your podcast previously, which I very much enjoyed. Can't wait to dive in.

P: I'm excited. I'm glad to be here. Thank you.

F: Yeah, so why don't we just start from the beginning? I listened to your episode with the Normalizing Non-Monogamy podcast, and I found you’re background fascinating and your story. I feel like you've gone through a lot, and a lot of people mightidentify with how you grew up and all the obstacles you had to overcome to kind of come to this place of acceptance.

So tell us a little bit about that, about your upbringing and your family.

P: Absolutely. So, I was raised very, very religious, very conservative. I grew up on a farm in southwest Missouri, and it was a very small town, mind, very small community, very, very christian upbringing. We went to church a lot. My stepmother was the church secretary at the point in which I started to come out or deal with my own sexuality, I was leading children's church, and learning or training to be a youth minister. So very, very involved in the church. Interestingly enough, though, as I began to find myself, I started to really see a lot of the hypocrisy in it. And I distanced myself and went on kind of a personal journey to find myself. And I had a lot of, a lot of ups and downs. I went through a period of time where I actually thought that I was trans started hormones, realized that I wasn't trans stopped hormones. I have had three long term relationships, five years, six years, and five years. And, all of them were monogamous until the last one. In the last one, we ended up opening up, because something that I had learned in my previous relationships was that the sexual component always kind of ended up being an issue in our relationship.

I am really good at the emotional aspect of my relationships, and then in the early stages of my relationship, I'm really great at the sexual component as well. But then when the relationship kind of evolves from like, that exciting new love energy into more of like a comfortable, long term energy, the dynamic for me always shifted. Growing up, I didn't see any displays of affection that just didn't really exist in my family. And then, of course, everything about sex was not talked about, really, except for the fact that, you know, gay sex was wrong, and sex was to be private and, you know, shared among two people that were married, man and woman. so, looking back in hindsight, I believe that my issues with sex came from the fact that I had a lot of shame associated with gay sex. And then the role that I fell into was the one that I witnessed with my father. My father was an incredible provider. He was great at caring for his kids and his wife. He was great at, providing for them, making sure that they had what they needed, and that he was there to support them. And that's kind of the role that in all my relationships, I took on. And when that happened, it was like sex was just over. It was like off, off the table, so to speak.

So, in my last relationship, I actually decided to open it up. I knew that he had a very high sex drive, and so I was like, you go play. Do what you need to to get your needs met. And we were that way for almost all but the first year of our relationship. And towards the end of our relationship, he fell in love with his friend with benefits. And that was really hard for me, because while I was totally comfortable with an open relationship, I still had that monogamy state of mind in the fact that, like, I felt like I couldn't share his love. Like, it would mean that for him to give love to someone else was to take away love from me.

And he fell in love with his friend with benefits, hard. And so it was very much like, well, you're either going to have to learn to be poly, or we're probably not going to stay together. And I dug into some books, I started listening to podcasts, I started talking to people, and I was bound and determined to educate myself to find out if I could, like, is it possible? Is this something I can do? Because if it is, I'm going to do it. And I came out of it actually a different person. I didn't just feel educated, but I felt like I had finally set my mind and heart free. And it was like, I get this. I understand this. This, to me, is what real life is.

And the filter that I've seen the world through was one that I had been given, one that I'd been programmed to see the world through. And I came out a total advocate for finding your own way, right, writing relationships according to what works for you. And I ironically enough, about the time that I hit that moment of, like, freedom and understanding. My partner at the time was like, actually, I don't think that I'm poly. I just want one relationship that does everything for me. So I'm going to go try that with the guy that he was seeing at the time. And so they are still together, still trying to work it out. And he and I are best friends still. And now I'm exploring solo poly and having a great time.

F: Yeah. Thank you for sharing all of that, and we'll definitely go and untangle everything you just said, because, I knew of your story, and I do have a lot of questions, but I want to kind of start from the beginning because, you know, even though not everyone might have grown up religiously or not everyone had to come out as gay, I feel like most people who are non- monogamous experience shame and are also, like, programmed. Right. Like, a lot of, like, the things you are talking about. So can you maybe talk a little bit about that process when you came out and how your family reacted also, you know, how your church reacted and how you were able to put all of that aside and be like: "This is who I am, and I need to learn to love and accept myself for who I am, even if it doesn't seem like the world is accepting me at this very moment."

P: Ooh. So I had a really great role model for self love. My mom actually left my dad to give a little insight on that. My mother actually got pregnant while she was in college. Getting pregnant out of wedlock was totally against the religion for her family. Her parents decided that they were going to find someone that would be willing to marry her since she was pregnant out of wedlock, and they called around until they found my dad, and my dad was like, sure, I'll do it. And so that's how they ended up getting married. So she had actually never been on a date with my dad before they got married and only kissed him for the first time the night before because she was like, I'm not going to make the first kiss I have with the man be the kiss on my wedding day.

F: And your dad took her child, son or daughter?

P: Son.

F: Her son as his own?

P: Yep. My older brother didn't even realize that that wasn't his father until, like, way later, because my dad just took him on like, his own. Yeah. So my mom just was a really strong individual, and she, you know, when she realized that the relationship she had with my father was not the right relationship, for her in the church that she was raised in, that was against God's law. You could not get divorced. So since she divorced my father, she was outcast from the church and outcast from most of her family. Like, there were certain members of her family that she was not even allowed to step in their home because to step in their home would have, like, tarnished their appearance in front of God. And she, you know, did it anyway. She did what she thought was right for her. And I, I had a really great role model for self love. My coming out story is not wonderful. I will say I've got a great dad. There wasn't a lot of support from him, unfortunately, in that moment, but I think a lot of that had to do with the influence of my stepmother, who is one of the worst people I've ever met in my life. After my stepmother left my father for a married man, the hypocrisy of hardcore christians right there, he and I reconnected. And the loving father that I knew as a small child is the father that I know again today.

And so like, I'm not gonna, I can't say anything bad about my father. He's a great dad, wonderful dad. Just, you know, we all go through our phases of understanding, and he went through a phase where he didn't understand me, and I get that.

F: But your mom did?

P: My mom did. And she was an incredible support assistant for me when I came out. I actually ended up going to live with her for a little bit before I ended up on my own.

F: So you live with your dad when you came out and then you moved with your mom because she was more understanding?

P: Yes. Well, I wasn't even allowed to be gay in my father's house because of my stepmother. She had a younger son and she was afraid I was going to molest him.

F: Wow. Wow. Yeah, there's a lot in there, but, well, I'm glad that's over and you've reestablished your relationship with him. And also that I assume by this point, both of your parents are accepting of your sexuality.

P: Absolutely.

F: Yeah. I also love how you mentioned that, the way your brother reacted when you came out. If you could just tell that story, because I think it's very cute.

P: So my oldest brother was the first person in my immediate family that I told, and he has always been like the rebel child out of all of us. He was the biggest pothead growing up at 13. He got caught, like, selling pot at school. Went through some different correctional boot camp style things. He's had a rough life. Out of all of us, he was the one that definitely went against the grain, for sure. And so I don't know why, because he also was the one that picked on me the most as a child. But when I was like: "I'm ready to tell my family" I was like: "I think he's gonna be the best one to tell first, because, like, he. I don't know, I just got this feeling, this vibe that, like, if anybody was gonna not give me a hard time about it, he would be that one."

F: Right. Because he was also an outlier in a way, right?

P: Exactly. Yes. And so I went over to his house, and we were hanging out, and I just kind of went for it all of a sudden, and I feel like I had to, because we didn't generally just hang out alone, the two of us, like, very often, it was kind of awkward that I was there by myself, so I felt like I had to just, like, dive in and tell him what was happening. So I told him I was gay. And he sat there for a moment, and then his first response was: "I always told you you were a faggot. Do you want a beer?" And I was. To, me. I know that sounds harsh. I know that sounds terrible. And when I tell people that, they're always like: "Oh, gosh." But I was. I almost wanted to cry, because for me, that was, like, his way of saying, like, it doesn't even matter, you know? Like, who cares? Whatever, you know, it helped me then move forward with telling the rest of my family. And he was. He's always been super supportive. Always. Always.

F: Yeah.

P: As a matter of fact that little period of time when I thought I was trans, I lived as a woman for almost two years, and I did some different photo shoots or whatnot, of course. And he framed one of them and put it on his wall. And his favorite thing to do when he had friends, overdose, was like, talk about his family and then show the picture and be like: "Isn't she hot? Blah, blah, blah." And then when they did, he'd be like: "Stop talking about my brother like that" and just make them feel uncomfortable. But the fact that he made my transition, even a part of his conversations and whatnot, while it still is not necessarily progressive in the way in which he did it, I feel like it meant that he was one supporting it and making it a conversation among others for acceptance in his own way. And so I still. I still felt like it was a very loving thing for him to do.

F: Yeah.

P: He's been. He's been a cheerleader of mine a lot.

F: Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah. As you said, every person has their own ways, you know, and their own process of acceptance. And, that's great that you had his, his support. Can you tell us a little bit about that period when you thought you were trans as well?

P: So I have always had a fashion, a fascination, or an affection for pretty things and more feminine things. I can even go back to a memory. And, I mean, it's maybe not so much a memory is so much a memory of a photo. But as, as kids, we grew up in the country, we went to rodeos, and I remember one specific experience where we were all allowed to pick out a hat, a cowboy hat. My dad was going to buy us all a cowboy hat as we were leaving, and my brothers both had, like, these masculine, traditional cowboy looking hats. And I have this white cowboy hat with these purple ombre feathers that just totally covered the front half of it. It was not a man's hat. It was definitely a woman's hat or a girl's hat. My dad bought it for me probably because of my mom, because I also grew up collecting my little ponies and treasure trolls. Those were, like, my toy of choice, and my dad didn't love it, but my mom was like, you have to let them buy what they want, because you don't know if it's just a phase or what. You know, like, you gotta let them enjoy whatever sparks their creativity. You don't want to, like, squash their creativity. So, so I was allowed to. And then as I got older, I was, like, obsessed with women's fashion. And I used to. I used to be fascinated with my mom's makeup. And so I went through a period of time where, um, I was doing drags and doing drugs, and I got hooked on meth for about a year in a pretty extreme way. It's probably a miracle that I am alive today with the quantities of meth that I was using and the dangerous situations I was putting myself in. But, when I got clean from meth, I kind of went through, like, an identity crisis where I was trying to figure out who I was without the drugs. And I really kind of gravitated towards the feminine aspects of myself and the feminine things that I enjoyed and questioned whether or not I might be trans. And I dove into the Persona that I had had as a drag queen. I just kind of, like, took it over as myself and pursued that as my identity. And it wasn't until my body started changing on hormones that I realized I didn't actually want to change my body. I just also, at the time, did not understand that I could still embrace feminine things and explore those feminine things and remaindehen male bodied. Like, that was not a concept that existed in my world at that time. Now, you have this beautiful spectrum that is nonbinary, and you have people that express that in so many different ways, but that wasn't something that was an option to me. So I shut down the feminine aspects and went back to a masculine me and lived that for the next 17 years or so.

F: So how old were you when you transitioned?

P: I was 21.

F: Right, and what was your drag Persona like?

P: So, interestingly enough, there was a lot of myself in there, but she was way more social. I would call myself an extroverted introvert, but she was all extrovert.

F: What was her name?

P: Felice.

F: Felice. Love it.

P: Yeah.

F: Wow. You've had a long, long story, and that was before you even started being non-monogamous. So why don't we actually get into that last relationship that you had and how you decided to open it up on his side, because he had the sexual drive, you weren't open yourself because he wasn't comfortable with it, and you didn't feel like you needed it. Can you speak a little bit of that? Because, you know, I agree that each person should do whatever feels right to them, and sometimes that's different. Like, in my relationship, my partner is monogamous, and I'm non- monogamous, and, that's fine. It's not like both people have to do the same, but I do think that both people should have the liberty. Right, and it sounds like you didn't have the liberty, but you gave him the liberty. Like, do you now, like, looking back at it? Because I know that that was, like, a few years ago. Like, how do you see that? And how do you justify it?

P: So I wouldn't say that I didn't have the liberty. The conversation was that we were going to be open, but his anxiety level around me actually doing something was pretty high, so I didn't really explore it, and I didn't really feel the need to we both were on different apps, socializing, if you will, and he was actually meeting people and. And doing things with that, and I just kind of chat with people. I made friends, and there were a few instances towards kind of the later half of that where I did want to connect with someone, and he let me I say, let me, like.

F: Yeah, he was okay with that. He gave you his blessing. I use the same language, and I try not to, but I know, but to be honest, it does feel like you're asking permission, at least in my situation.

P: You know, and I know that that doesn't sound like a healthy dynamic, but it worked for us, and it was an arrangement that I agreed upon. So you know, it was as if I asked permission, and he did consent to that. And, and I did play around, but he did have quite a bit of anxiety around when something like that happened. But it didn't happen a whole lot on my end. And, and mainly towards the end portion, not so much in the first half of it. He, he just really was uncomfortable with the idea of me playing with someone else. And honestly, I think the reason why

I was okay with not pursuing that was that I knew that he didn't necessarily want to be playing with other people. He's not really the polyamorous personality. He's much more of a monogamous person. I just wasn't meeting his needs, which is why I was like, we should open up. You should go pursue what you need to. I'm not meeting your needs. I'm not, not there. And he agreed to that, but it wasn't what he wanted.

F: Mhm. Yeah, I get that. And that's another thing that I wanted to ask you. How did you feel? Because I know that around that time you might have felt like, a little inadequate or, you know, like, there's this person that, like, I really love, and they feel like they need something outside of what I can give them. But at the same time, you were open to that person going and getting it elsewhere. So how do you handle those feelings?

P: Honestly, I did not see myself as being inadequate. I took so much pride in being a great partner in the sense of, like, providing emotional like providing the emotion, providing, like a home, things like that. Like being the provider that I saw my dad be. I took so much pride in that, that I actually did not really see myself in a negative light for not being there for him in the physical way that he needed. And towards the end of our relationship, that's actually part of what was the issue, was that he tried to tell me so much that he needed that physical component, and I just didn't hear it because I thought I was being such a great partner based off of what I had seen growing up, and I was taking so much pride in that that it was difficult for me to see where he was and how hard he was struggling.

F: You mentioned that he was seeing this other person, and things got really serious. Was he the one who approached the conversation?

P: In hindsight, I can look back now and say he actually tried to break up with me, like, three different times. It only worked once, because, again, I didn't hear him for what he was trying to say. I would spin what he was telling me to a perspective that worked for me, and then he would, like, back off and let it go. And it wasn't until, like, the third attempt when I was like: "Are you actually breaking up with me?" And he was like: "I think that's what's happening. I think that's what needs to happen."

F: And how come after how long did you say, like, four or five years of relationship we were together?

P: Five years.

F: Five years of relationship. How, after going through that experience and, you know, having him meet someone else and fall in love with someone else and eventually break up with you, how did you come out of that? Being like:"I'm gonna be poly polyamory is great" you know? Like, how did that happen?

P: You know, I dug so much into this whole educate myself thing. I read The Ethical Slut. I read Polysecure. It got me interested in human sexuality. So I read Sex at Dawn. I read Perv. I just dug into trying to understand relationship dynamics and how our minds work around relationships and sex and how that's evolved over time. And I dug into all of that so much that by the time we broke up, regardless of the success of our poly relationship or not, I 100% believe in it. And I believe in all of the foundational principles of being ethically non- monogamous so much that I think even if you want to be monogamous, it would behoove you to, like, educate yourself on these, because it'll only make your own relationship stronger. And so I'm not deterred from it at all, and I think from all of the education that I've done.

While I am sad that he is not my partner by title, the love that we shared, we still share. The depth of love that I have for him hasn't changed at all. I don't believe that the depth of love that he has for me has changed at all. We still talk on the daily. I think I just have learned to see love differently. Like, I don't necessarily care so much about titles. Like: "How are we calling this connection what are we labeling?" This connection is kind of irrelevant to me now. I just want to experience connections. I want to celebrate them for exactly what they are so that I don't miss any of the joy of it. And as a result, while I have, like, three play partners and no, like, real emotional partners, so to speak, I have never felt more love than I do right now. I've got three exes that are best friend soulmates. We talk almost on the daily with every single one of them. Because I had two partners after him that didn't. Didn't last. I couldn't give them enough attention. I couldn't give them enough of my time. But we are still incredibly close, and I couldn't imagine my life without them. So it's. I think I've just learned to value the connections that I have differently, so that I'm not saddened by the loss of something because I'm not really losing anything. It's just changing. It just looks different.

F: Yeah. Relationships transform. and tell me a little bit about your journey after breaking up that five year relationship and being single again, being solo poly, how has that been like for you and your sexuality as well? Because something that stood out to me was that you at some point described yourself. Was it like. Like a sex camel or something? Right?

P: Yes. Yes. I've used the term often that I'm like. Like a sex camel. I go through these, like, phases where it's like I am so thirsty, and it's like I just have lots of sex to, like, you know, refill, and then it'll die down and I'll go through a little period of time where I'm just not as driven or motivated to be a sexual person. And then I go back into that thirst phase. I would have to say I think it's evened out a little bit since that relationship came out. I still go through the ups and downs, but it's not nearly as drastic as before. But I think that that comes from the fact that I no longer feel the shame to the extent that I did. I've been working on processing that shame around gay sex and sex in general. And so I think in the past it was like I would just have all this sex because I had denied myself for so long. And then after I had all this sex, I would feel guilty about it. So then I would deny myself again for a while. Now I'm not having those feelings as much. I definitely still have my ups and downs, though. There are definitely ways where I'm like, much more motivated and then other times where it's like, if it presents itself, great, but I'm not necessarily searching for it.

F: Yeah. Can you share what tools or tactics or tips you might have for people out there who either have shame about being non-monogamous or about being gay or about sex because of their religious background? I mean, you fit in all of those categories. So how have you, like, dealt with that shame?

P: So I think the first step is, like,self awareness. Just really understanding where are these feelings coming from and identifying that when you feel them. Taking the time to look into yourself and figure out, like, what I'm feeling right now, is it validated by the experience that I'm in, or is it the result of something from my past that's telling me I should feel this way? So a big part of it is self awareness. Once you've got your self awareness and every time you reach one of those instances or you have those feelings, you can reach back in yourself and identify, where is this feeling coming from? Is it me? Is it normal, or is it something that

I was taught to feel or think? The second part is really just, like, faking it until you make it. And I know that sounds super corny and, like, I don't know. Not very profound, but, you know, rewriting an internal narrative comes from telling yourself what it is that you're wanting to overcome the change that you want to see in yourself. Telling yourself that until you believe it. Because when we're programmed to think and feel a certain way about a certain thing, you have to reprogram your brain to feel and think differently about that certain thing. The only way to do that is to continue to remind yourself, it's okay to have sex. It's okay to be gay. It's okay to, like, have gay sex. Like, all of these things were the things that I was struggling with. And so I was, like, I had to remind myself that it's okay and you don't believe it in the beginning. It's not like you say that to yourself, and then the shame disappears in the beginning. But if you continue to tell yourself that when you have those feelings and you continue to analyze, where did it come from? Why am I feeling this way? Okay, I'm feeling this way because I was told to feel this way. Well, it's okay. I don't have to feel this way. What I'm doing is not wrong. You begin to believe it, and then all of a sudden, the feeling isn't as strong. It doesn't grip you with overwhelming fear and shame.

All of a sudden, it becomes kind of just an icky feeling, and that icky feeling begins to die down to a kind of annoying little thought that passes through your brain. And so it's like, fake it till you make it. Continue to tell yourself the narrative that you're wanting to change, and over time, you'll rewrite that internal dialogue.

F: Yeah, I love that. Sometimes we don't realize how powerful the way we talk to ourselves is. Yeah, sometimes. And I mean, not just with sex, but, you know, like, even just, like: "You can do this." You know, like, the typical. Like: "You got this", you know, like just like, we talk to my friends, and, you know, my friends make fun of me because I say: "You're doing great a lot", which I actually think I got from Seth, my partner. But, you know, I just feel like sometimes I need to tell that to myself as well. Like, you're doing great. It's fine. And, you know, in my case, I remember feeling guilty when I would go out with people at first and not only just thinking, like: "Okay, I'm not doing anything wrong." Also, uh, just asking my partner if I could go on a date was really difficult and not just telling myself, it's okay. I'm, It's fine. He agreed that I could go on this date. It's okay. But also just doing it. You do it, and then you're like, okay, you know, it's fine. You know, like, you. You also have to, like, experience it. So. So, yeah, I think. I think that those are really, really great tips.

And how has your relationship to what you were talking about your role as a caregiver and as a provider changed? Because I can imagine that if you are coming from this non-monogamous mindset, you probably can't provide for all of your partners. Right. It's like a different approach.

P: That's one of the reasons that I identify as solo poly. I identify as solo poly because it is a constant reminder to me that in order for me to fully show up for my partners, I have to make sure that I am grounded, that I am secure in who I am and what I'm doing, and that I'm taking time for myself to keep myself in that grounded state of mind. So I've made myself my primary partner, and I'm actually not hierarchy.

I don't believe in hierarchy in relationships, but I do give myself that title, so to speak, because I realize that I can get lost in a relationship with someone else by putting them first. By putting them before myself, I feel that I need to approach relationships with more balance. And so I've identified as solo poly. I continue to maintain a certain amount of, like, personal time and personal space, and I generally can feel it coming now. Now I can tell when it's necessary, and I'll take that step. I'll pull away. I'll be like, I need some time and do things with myself, for myself. And so I'm not trying to be that caregiver like I was in the past. I try to approach relationships much more from a position of, how can we help elevate each other together? How can we enjoy the time that we're spending together? By both giving a little to that, but also, like, maintaining our sense of independence and individuality.

F: Yeah, I love that self awareness. I think it's important. Sounds to me like, you know, the type of past that you had, and you're able to say, you know, because my dad was a caregiver, I feel like I need to be that in my relationships, because I grew up religiously, I have shame around gay sex. And, as you said, like, the first step is awareness. And so, yeah, congratulations for having gone through that process of acknowledging what's going on and taking the steps that you need to take to live a more fulfilling life.

P: Thank you.

F: Yeah. So, I'm curious to hear about, Dear Poly, the podcast that we briefly mentioned. What inspired you to start it, and how long has it been, and what have you learned by, you know, talking to people? What's the podcast about?

P: So, as I was exploring polyamory and I was digging into books and listening to podcasts. Cause, you know, it's one thing to, like, read the books, but then it's another to, like, understand how people are applying it. Where are they finding their challenges? Where are they finding their successes? So, I really started listening to a lot of podcasts and digging in, and, one of the things that I found challenging was there were times when I was exploring this where I would have a specific question that I was trying to get answered. So I'd be, like, searching through different podcasts and reading the little summaries of different episodes to see if I could find an episode that would cover it, or I'd have to listen to multiple episodes until I could find one that had it.

F: Do you remember one question, just out of curiosity?

P: I just remember that it was an issue that was taking place with my metamour at the time, Nick's current partner. We were really, really struggling to connect. But I was trying to find episodes often that were dealing with one. How Nick could balance, the triangle and then, or really, the V was not a triangle. It was a V. And then how, Alex, his partner, and I could communicate and connect better, because we really struggled. It was not, actually. He still loathes me. Like, I'm not even allowed to stay at their house if I visit. He doesn't even want to know if I'm in town. Like, he hates me. But most of what I was searching for when I was searching for something specific was dealing with that specific shape of a V and how metamours could connect and get along or understand. And then also I was searching for specific ones where I could help Nick, because Nick was really struggling with trying to balance this V, where the two ends of the V were just, like, you know, a war zone. And I felt for him, I wanted to try and figure out and or understand how to make that easier for him. And I found that, like, searching was a real challenge. And the first thing that came to mind one day while I was doing this, I was like: "Why is there not a Dear Abby for, you know, ethically non- monogamous people?" Because I grew up. I don't even know if Dear Abby is around anymore.

F: I don't know what that is.

P: You're not familiar with Dear Abby?

F: No, but I'm mexican, so that might be why.

P: That may be why. It was. I think it started off as a newspaper column where you could write into this relationship expert. Her name was Abby, and she would write an article about it, about your specific question or concern or topic or issue that you were dealing with, and it would go out into the newspaper, and so you could read it everywhere. And so I was like: "Why is there not a Dear Abby for the ethically non- monogamous?" And so I decided I was going to do that. I was going to give people, a platform where they could submit a question, a topic, a concern, like, an issue that they were dealing with, and I would find an expert, because I'm definitely not one that would partner with me to help answer that question and talk about that topic and help share that with anyone else that might be going through that same issue. And that's how Dear Poly was born.

F: Awesome. I love that. And is that still how the podcast is structured, or how has it evolved? And what type of guests do you have now?

P: That is still the dominant structure. I have expanded a little bit, so I now also have a series within my series called Kingdom, where we help to normalize different types of kinks or sexual exploration that some might find taboo. I bring somebody on that participates in it. I try and bring somebody else that is also, like, an expert in that field that can provide some education if the person I'm talking to is not an expert in that field. And, we just discuss it. We explore it and I put it out there so that one is not submitted by user interest or whatnot. but the rest of it is still questions or topics that are submitted by listeners. They'll write in either. I've got, like, an anonymous web form on my website, but I would say only about a third come through there. The rest come, actually, as DM's on Instagram.

F: Awesome. I love that. And we'll definitely add all those links on our show notes so people can connect with you, ask questions, listen to your podcast, all of that.

P: Thank you.

F: Well, before we wrap up, I just want to ask you what we asked to everyone in this podcast, which is what would you tell to a polycurious person? So, with all the journey that you've been through, which you just shared, what are some of the lessons that you wish you knew when you started?

P: I think the first thing I would say is, know yourself. If you don't know yourself well, date yourself, get to know yourself, learn yourself, and figure out what is it that you want, who are you? What are your needs? And then the second thing I would say is, live transparently. Tell people what it is that you need. Tell people how you feel. I think that that is so valuable in all relationships. Not just, you know, like, intimate relationships, but express yourself. Don't. Don't be afraid to say what it is that you, that you need. Don't be afraid to express what you're scared of share your fears, share your insecurities. The worst case scenario is you might scare someone away, but you probably didn't want them anyway.

F: Yeah.

P: If they can't handle your fears and insecurities, they're not going to be there to, like, help you through them. So good riddance. And the best thing that could happen is people understand you better. They connect with you stronger. They will be for you in a greater capacity. And, I mean, don't we just all want more love?

F: So, yeah, I really love that. I remember one of the first things that I heard from my non-monogamous friend who inspired me, one of the people who inspired me to start this podcast, I asked her, like: "Okay, so what have you learned in your non-monogamous relationship?" And she said: "Radical honesty." And what I like about that is that. I mean, it's similar to what you're saying, right? Like, transparency. It's not just honesty. It's, like, radical. Like, it has to be a little bit, like, uncomfortable. You know, it has to be a little bit extreme. What might seem extreme, because sometimes feelings don't sound good, you know? And, like, sometimes you can't really sugarcoat the truth, right? And saying things like, I'm attracted to someone else, or I'm not sexually satisfied with you, or I want you to do this or that thing in bed, or you know, whatever it is doesn't sound pretty always, but you just have to push yourself to say those things and to be transparent and be honest with what you need.

P: We're calling it radical honesty now because culturally, we've been taught to sugarcoat everything and to, like, not fully express our needs and wants and fears. But in the future, it's just gonna be honesty. I mean, I think culturally, we're gonna get to a point where we are not taught to hide so much of ourselves, our thoughts and feelings. And I think we're gonna. I think we're gonna get there where one day that's. That's just gonna be honesty. Just. Just being truthful. That's what I hope for, anyway.

F: Yeah, I hope so, too. I definitely think that societally will find those spaces a lot more easily. I mean, we are already finding those places, like, right now, literally, this is what's happening, right? Like, maybe we couldn't be honest in our other circles, but, you know, we found each other on instagram and through our podcast, and now we have this podcast, and we're talking. We're being honest, and we're talking about sex and drugs and being trans and everything, shame. So we're definitely going in that direction, in that way. I just hope that people can take it home, and they can take it to their immediate partners and lovers you know, and friends. Absolutely. Yeah, because as you said, at the end of the day, whoever takes you for who you are, that's the people you want to be surrounded. So I very much love that message, and it's been a real pleasure to talk to you this time just flew by. So, yeah. Unless there's anything else that you'd like to add. Thank you so much for being on Polycurious.

P: Thank you for having me. Thank you.

F: Okay, guys, thank you so much for tuning in today. I hope that you enjoyed that conversation as much as I did. And again, if you like what you hear in today's episode and you want to join us for an Instagram live on Sunday, please come with all of your questions from listening to today's episode, and we'll be happy to answer them again. That's on my Instagram Polycuriouspodcast at 05:00 p.m. eastern this Sunday, April 9. And if you want to listen to Dear Poly and to the episode I participated in, you can find that link in the show notes. You can also find Philip's Instagram, of course, and all the things you need to connect with him and with us. Thank you all again, and I'll catch you all on the next episode.