Kris: I didn't know how to present what I was looking for and what I could be to a person. And it was very awkward for me because I always felt like I was saying "Well, I know I'm in a relationship. I know that's not ideal." And everything was about apologizing about it. Instead of saying,: "Hey, I offer this really unique opportunity to kind of see somebody without worrying too much about what's going to happen."

Fernanda: Hi, everyone. Welcome to Polycurious. I am Fer, your host. And today Mariah and I chat with Jenny and Kris. They have been together for nearly a decade exploring polyamory, and they are really fun and intelligent people. So this was one of those conversations that I had to break up into two parts because there were so many great anecdotes and lessons that it was just really hard to edit down. So in this first part of the conversation, you'll hear about their introduction to non- monogamy. They actually went straight into non-monogamy from the very beginning.

And of course, there were some lessons and missteps along the way, but they definitely made it work. In the second part of this interview, we actually go deeper into an experience they had when Jenny fell in love with someone else who she had been seeing for like, four years, and this other person wasn't super comfortable being the secondary and wanted to be more of a primary. And all the difficulties and lessons that came with that. In that second episode, we also go into how Jenny got into organizing events. She has this amazing platform called Space Invaders, and they have all sorts of events for non- monogamous people. And more recently, also for the general public, they have, like, holiday parties, and their next one is actually coming up. I already got my tickets, so if you want to stop by and ay hi, I would love to see you. If you are in New York, it's happening in Brooklyn on Thursday, April 20, so 420. And even though this event is not specifically for non- monogamous people, because a lot of their events are, I'm sure that you could find a lot of community, and you can get tickets by following the link in the show notes. And there you can also find their instagram if you want to stay tuned for other events that are more cater to non-monogamous people. I think their next one is in May.

Before we start, I just wanted to quickly remind you that I am taking clients for relationship coaching. So if you feel like you might need some help in navigating non-monogamy, either on your own or with your partner, or just more generally, you want to learn how to better communicate, just make sure to shoot me message on my instagram at Polycurious Podcast or to my email at polycuriouspodcast@gmail.com and we can set up a free consultation where we can chat about how I might be able to help you with that. Okay. Get ready for a super fun conversation with Jenny and Kris.

F: Hi, guys. I'm incredibly excited to have you tonight at your lovely apartment with your lovely dog. I'm sure you guys will have a lot to say, because at least from the little I know you from afar, I can tell that you have a very special relationship. So I can't wait to actually get to hear what that means for you.

Jenny: Hi. Yeah, we're super excited and we love to talk. Yeah, you got a little glimpse of our special relationship when you heard us bickering about the temperature when you change. Which is, like, such a classic hashtag married thing to be doing. But we were doing it for real.

Mariah: Yeah, I think we all do it. In every relationship, the temperature is always a thing.

J: I had a very sweet uncle, before our wedding.

K: I thought it was at the wedding.

J: Maybe it was at the wedding, but it was a point of no return. And he said, the most important thing in a relationship is that your internal thermometers be aligned. It's like: "Oh, shit, that's not even close."

K: We're ten degrees off.

J: At least ten. I think 15 or 20, but.

M: It's a little too late for that. Sorry.

J: But, yeah, we're making it work.

F: Yeah, I have a heavy blanket, and it's either the heavy blanket cuddles me or Seth, depending on the temperature. Yeah, it's, like, sad at first, but then, you know, when he gets tired, then I grab my heavy blanket. So, yeah, that's a secret. See, like, non-monogamy, you gotta have someone to do it. Outsource your things.

J: And you can't get jealous of the heavy blanket, because sometimes the heavy blanket does a better job than you can. That's just life. I accept that now. You do? You haven't always.

F: I'm sure we'll get to that. I definitely want to hear about that. But, why don't we start by maybe learning a little bit more about you?

J: I'm Jenny. I'm 39. I've lived in New York for about ten years ish. We now live between New York and Miami, but New York still feels like home, even though we spend only six months a year here. I am a freelancer. I do graphic design and marketing and branding. And I produce events in New York that started off as non-monogamous friendly events and have sort of expanded into other types of events, but we've still kept that core of non-monogamy as a niche that we're operating out of. We throw parties is like the simplest way to put it.

F: Mhm. And you?

K: Me? Oh, I'm Kris and yeah, I grew up in Chicago, which actually kind of threw me towards this journey because it was very conservative and almost, I don't want to say religious, but midwestern. Midwestern vibe. Yeah, definitely. So when I moved to New York about ten years ago, it really opened my eyes to what was out there, you know. So, yeah, I moved to New York, met Jenny about a year after that. I'm now 49 and a professional pilot for work. And so yeah, we've been on this journey for nine years ish. Right. Married for seven.

J: Relationship journey.

K: Yeah, this relationship journey

J: To the moon.

K: Yeah. but yeah, New York. Once I got here, I realized it was a much different, more open minded place than Chicago was, which was very intriguing and interesting to me, so.

F: So. And you only moved to New York ten years ago?

K: Ten years ago, yeah, from the midwest, so.

F: And that's when you started your non-monogamous journey?

K: I had no experience whatsoever, when I was living in Chicago. And, you know, I knew probably going back as far as college that I was curious about this stuff, but I had no outlets and no vocabulary for it and no friend group that I could talk to about it, so I kind of just kept it to myself and, I had the extent of my experience. Coming from Chicago was two very awkward threesomes in Chicago with two previous girlfriends.

F: Oh. Why were they awkward?

K: There wasn't really a lot of comfort level from my, my partners in both of those situations. They were both MFM threesomes. And I think there was just a lot of nerves and things not going smoothly when it got down to the actual threesome just because everyone was nervous.

F: And were they guys that they were interested in or guys that you knew?

K: One was a guy that the previous girlfriend knew and one was a guy that I knew that my girlfriend was somewhat interested in.

F: Well, I'm glad you came back from those bad experiences, but, yeah, I feel like threesomes can be hit or miss, you know, sometimes it's a lot to coordinate, you know.

K: And they were so exciting. They just compared to more recent times.

J: It's older by now.

F: Oh, so they were still exciting. Okay.

K: Yeah. They were exceeded pretty, pretty quickly.

M: Yeah. I relate to that, though, because for me, it's just like, oh, threesomes in particular are much more intimate and, like, more intimidating for me, at least. And I, like, before I ever had my first threesome. Only threesome. Oh, no, not only first threesome. It was just like: "Oh, I can go to an orgy. I can go to a play party. But a threesome scares me."

K: Yeah. Very different experience.

F: Yeah. So she. Yeah, so she had her first threesome after her first orgy. Basically

J: You had a different leveling up than most people because I think most people think, like: "Oh, you add one person to a couple, like, that's less intense than going to a play party." Right. There's all these people and. Yeah, that's been my experience, too, where, like, at a play party, there's enough people that you can kind of fade into the background if you want to. The focus isn't on you, but in a threesome, there's nowhere to hide.

M: Exactly.

J: And everybody can tell if one person is not having a good time. yeah, when it works, it's kind of magical because it doesn't feel like it should work because there's so many factors against it actually going well, but sometimes it works really great.

K: Yeah.

F: Yeah.

M: So I'm curious, Jenny, how did you kind of enter into this community?

J: I explored a little bit with my ex, we. For Valentine's when I was first, I moved to New York after college for a couple years and dated a guy here and he asked me to find us a sexy party to go to for Valentine's. And so I was like, I can do that. And went on Google and, like, sexy party New York. And I found Chemistry, which is a party that's still happens. Like, twelve years later, 15 years later. I don't know how long ago this was, but we went to it and we had a really good time. We had fun, we hooked up with other people. I remember at one point, because I had no idea how these things worked, I was chatting with the woman who was the bartender, who I guess assumed that the party had hired. And then at some point in the night, she joined the play. And I was so shocked, like, that's the bartender from earlier. I didn't understand how. Yeah, she is down. Obviously she's here. She's not just a person who's just like, these freaks are crazy. While she's mixing drinks, she's involved. But, yeah, we had a great experience and kind of walked away from it being like: "Okay, checked that box." Cool. And didn't really, like, it didn't occur to us at the time. And I was pretty young, so I just think I wasn't ready for it. But it didn't occur to us that, like, oh, this is something you could do. Like, these are people you could know in your regular life. It just was like a thing that we sort of went on vacation to and did. So then I didn't think about it for a while.

F: Um, and you just made out?

J: No, we hooked up pretty heavily. Like, not like serious sex, but everything, but I guess I would say. But then we had. We broke up, and while we were broken up, met this woman in a bar on my birthday and ended up taking her home and having this amazing threesome. Getting back together and then dating.

F: Was that threesome what brought you back together?

J: It kind of was. It kind of like, it wasn't really magical threesome. And she just, like, sprinkled some fairy dust on our relationship. And we woke up the next day, she had left, but we were still together in his apartment, and just sort of looked at each other like, I guess we should get back together.

That's just, like, what we got to do. And then we dated her for a little while as a couple, and that was sort of my first experience with non-monogamy. And she had a male partner, and then the four of us were sort of seeing each other, and she was a few years older than me, and her male partner was even older, and they were sort of helpful for me to say what was available. I sort of knew all this stuff was possible, but I'd never seen it modeled for me in real life. And it was just neat to see them navigate it. So they moved in together, and I would ask, okay, well, so what happens now? What changes in your relationship? And she would just be like, well, now we do this the way.

F: So what do you do when that happens?

J: I mean, for them, at least, I think it was like, just, you know, working out the logistics. They had a really big apartment, one of those, like, dream New York apartments that was sort of. I think it was a four bedroom or something. So they could even, like, have dates on the same night at the same time, potentially.

F: Oh, wow.

J: Yeah. Which is, like, not most New Yorkers experience with this, where, like, you have to coordinate going out when your partner is home with a date, if that's what they would like. You to do. But then they got engaged and then they got married. And I sort of, like, followed along on this journey with them and saw like: "Oh, it can be done." All while having a healthy relationship and maintaining a normalish life. You know, it just sort of seemed like they were doing it the way that made sense for them. And I found that really inspiring because, monogamy has always been a challenge for me, and, I've also seen a lot of relationships fail because of how challenging monogamy is. I mean, other factors too, I'm sure, but that doesn't help.

And I think for me, it helped reassure me that it was possible to be in love with somebody and have a committed relationship, but just do it on your own terms. Yeah, that's where it began for me.

Fi: Yeah. Why has monogamy always been a challenge for you?

J: It just doesn't make sense. It's so hard. Like, why is, if it's how we're supposed to be, then why is it so hard? I mean, I think I'm a moral but not religious person at all, so I don't have any of that stuff. But I do think you should fulfill the promises that you make to a person. But then I've really struggled to not be attracted to other people or when I have a connection with somebody outside of my relationship, to not want to see where that connection goes. And so I did cheat in some past relationships and felt really bad about it. I think I always confessed, and then it was a whole thing.

M: Same.

J: And it was just a mess when I wish I just could have been like:"Yeah, I'm interested in this person. Can I just see what that's about?" And the ideal thing would be for my partner to have been like: "Yeah, cool, I love that for you. But, like, that wasn't our arrangement." Although if I had been more aware of what I needed, I could have built that into the relationship in the front end. So I had relationships that started off monogamous and conventional, and then we kind of relaxed as time went on and had encounters with other people and things like that. But never a truly open relationship from the get go until I met Kris. And then I did have that, so that was cool.

K: Yeah. And ours started right from the beginning. We met on OkCupid, which is, I guess, still out there, but it predated Tinder, and the time that we met on it predated Tinder and Hinge.

F: I love the marketing. It's like: "Okay, cupid." It's like, when dating apps were still, like, stigmatized. Right. So it's like, this is okay. This is, like, the okay one.

J: Yeah. We're not gonna over promise. It's like, it's gonna be fun.

F: Okay. You're gonna have okay dates.

J: But this, like, back then. Back then. And, like, the dark pre app ages, like, was kind of the best thing that was around. Like, I had a great time on OkCupid. I had moved back to the city. I met a ton of cool people. I had some boring dates, and that's sort of the worst thing that happened.

K: Yeah. So we met on that. And very quickly, within the first couple dates, started talking about our ideas of what a relationship might look like. And non-monogamy was an interest for both of us.

J: We were coming at it from different angles because I had just gotten out of a long term relationship, and I was really excited to live in New York and be single and go on grown up dates. And you had been single for a really long time and were really attached to your independence, and you didn't want to have a serious relationship because you wanted to keep doing the grown up dates. And so we aligned on that.

K: Yeah. Yeah. And it very quickly turned into, I think I fell in love with Jenny much more quickly because I saw this person that I was already falling for. And then in addition to that, that was curious about continuing to explore this lifestyle. I was like: "Oh, my God, jump on."

J: You don't know when I was falling off.

K: You don't know.

J: We were pretty much on the same track, I think.

K: Yeah.

M: Yeah. I love that idea of when I had that experience of starting a relationship from, we're just gonna be non-monogamous, even though I have no idea what I'm doing. That just led a really interesting journey and, like, being able to create something new out of nothing.

K: Yeah.

M: Which was really cool.

J: It's a trade, though, right? Because if you have a monogamous relationship and you introduce the idea of: "Hey, I wanna open up this relationship" you're pushing against, like, the things that are already established in the relationship, but you have trust and communication to work with. Whereas if you start from a new relationship, you don't have to break down any habits that have already formed over years in the relationship because you're just starting out, but you don't have that shared language and you don't know how much you can trust the other person.

F: Yeah, I was gonna say that because I just interviewed someone who said, I always recommend people to start monogamous because that's what worked for me. And then it just, like, made me reflect on, you know, how it's important to have that, like, trust, right? And security. Because, like, when you don't know if you can trust this person, then even though you might be, like, in love with them, how can you be sure that they're actually going to come back if they go and see someone else for a date, right? Like, what do you have that they don't have? Like, if it's not time and investment. Right? Like, it's like: "Okay, well, we just met where we fell in love, so why couldn't he or she go and fall in love with someone else as well?" Like, what's the difference, right?

But I don't know how you guys approached it. I'm sure that you had, like, conversations about it, but curious to hear if you, like, started together separate or what was, like, your first step into doing that as a couple.

J: Actually, we started off pretty open and, like, pretty much anything goes. And then...

K: But that was before we had even established ourselves as a, like, a primary couple, if I may.

J: Yeah, I guess I'm talking about, like, once we decided, like: "Okay, you're my boyfriend now we're in a relationship. What does this mean?" And it was sort of like, well, we call each other these things, but, like, it didn't really change what we were doing. We had to have, like, a really bad fight before we, like, realized that we had moved into a different phase with the relationship. And we couldn't just keep doing this sort of like, laissez faire. Like, you go do whatever you want, I'll go do whatever I want thing. Yeah. To me, it's almost like there is that fear of: "Oh, I'm going to lose this person. They're going to fall in love with somebody, or they're going to go off with somebody else and forget about me" or whatever. But it's almost worse this sense to me that this person's not representing my interests when I'm not with them. Like, they're not behaving in a way that's respectful to our relationship and our connection.

And, like, that, to me, was the big trust thing. I didn't know if I ever was really worried that you were gonna leave so much as just like, you weren't gonna behave in a way that felt good to me when I wasn't with you.

K: Sure. Yeah, I remember you had, we had a few roles in place when we were first starting out, one of which was, you were not comfortable with taking somebody out to dinner. So I took someone, I met somebody for drinks, and then we decided to have food in that process. And I came home and, of course, told Jenny about it, and it didn't even occur to me: "Oh, I just bought dinner for this person" essentially, and she said: "What are you doing? What are you talking about? That's against our rules."

J: It sounds like a really weird rule, and it's definitely not a rule anymore. I mean, I don't even think we really. I mean, we have sort of, like, one rule, which is safety.

K: Yeah, sure.

J: But this was something that I just, like, I had this weird feeling about. It wasn't just dinner. I think that one of the most valuable things that we have at this moment in society is that we can kind of upend the expectations that, like, dating, all this social conditioning that we have about dating, about, like, who's responsible for whom in a date and, like, who pays. And all this stuff is like, we don't have to do anything with the traditional model. But I do think that if you are a man and you take out a woman who is, I don't know, it set a dynamic that I felt like you were writing checks that you couldn't really cash, where you were sort of maybe establishing, like: "Oh, I'm going to take care of you." And I wanted the relationships that we had outside of our primary relationship to be more like two equals. Like, I didn't want someone feeling like, I don't know, like, having those kinds of expectations of you because I didn't really want to, like, share you in that way. I think

M: That's really interesting. Because I guess I immediately assumed when you said that, that it was more about intimacy, because, like, dinners can be a little bit more intimate than going to a bar or something like that. But that's a very interesting view on another reason why dinners might be a little bit more intimidating or I guess not intimidating, but just something that you wouldn't want to introduce into your relationship.

J: Yeah, it was sort of like the idea of, like, you can't pick up the check either. Like, you should split the check, or you should, like if you have, like, an ongoing thing, like, you can pick it up this time, they'll get you next time kind of thing, but it shouldn't be consistently like, I'm gonna. I got this. I also feel like there's a part of it. Were you were dating somebody for a minute who was brand new, like, even newer than we were, and I was like, it feels like what you're doing is apologizing to her for your situation by, like, saying: "Well, I can't be like, your boyfriend, but I can take you out for a nice dinner" kind of thing, where I was like, don't apologize. It's nothing to apologize for. Like, she should be happy about your situation because it gives her more freedom. And, like, if she's not happy about it, then y'all shouldn't be doing it.

K: Yeah, I think you felt that discomfort because I didn't know what I was doing. I was just, What do they say, you know, up the river with no paddle or something, where I didn't know how to present what I was looking for and what I could be to a person without apologizing about it, like you said. And it was very awkward for me because I always felt like I was saying, well, I know I'm in a relationship. I know that's not ideal. And everything was about apologizing. Instead of saying: "Hey, I offer this really unique opportunity to kind of see somebody without worrying too much about"

J: He's about to get out the presentation. Yeah, like a timeshare.

K: Yeah, timeshare.

J: But, yeah, I think, like, when you come into it apologetically, you're giving that person a reason to be like: "Hey, yeah. Like, you should be sorry." Like, when maybe it wouldn't have occurred to them to have that diagnosis.

F Yeah. I remember in one of the interviews, Ana and Dustin (Ep. 7) and I was talking about how Dustin came back from a date, and he was telling her how he said, like: "I'm not gonna wine and dine you because they have a wife at home or something."

M: That's also not how you do it.

F: Ana was like: "You should not say that. Like, obviously, she's never gonna see you again."

J: It's a balance, right.

M: And being able to communicate clearly and in a compassionate way. Not just like: "Yo, I got my wife at home. Sorry, but this ain't it."

J: Or, like: "Let's pretend that this is a normal date, and we'll just ignore the fact that I'm in a relationship, and, like, I'll do everything that you expect, because I want you to ignore the fact that I'm in a relationship and we won't talk about it."

M: But, yeah, I'm just really curious, too, of how people responded when you started getting into that mode. First of all, I know that there's an uncomfortability for you to go about that, because probably, typically, this is something that you're used to, and now you're not only in a non-monogamous relationship and testing the waters, dating someone new, but you're trying to, like, break this barrier of what you're typically used to. So how was that for you? And, like, how did you go along that and, and get to a place that it felt comfortable for you?

K: Oh, it was super uncomfortable to begin with and very slowly progressed to be, I mean, years to where I felt more comfortable with it.

M: Yeah.

K: And honestly, it has. It's turned into mostly seeing people who are also already in the non-monogamous community. And probably, if I'm being honest, a preference of mine is to date somebody who already has a partner or multiple other partners. Because trying to thread that needle of dating somebody who's coming from the monogamous world is so difficult because they're, you know, no matter how well I feel like I communicate or they communicate, it always turns into, well, we've had a few dates now, what does this mean? And for my part, I'm like: "Well, I don't know what it means. It's just dating."

F: It's just for the moment, for the sake of the moment. And, yeah, that's a hard concept to come around for people, but, yeah, actually, that's interesting. I've been reflecting on that. Not dating people who are not non-monogamous. I was thinking of, like, my past relationships, and I've mostly dated, like, single men, and then they just see me as, like, the placeholder, you know, until they find someone else.

J: I think, like, I don't know, this is a gross generalization, but I do feel like in dating, and I date women and men, both women are generally better at multitasking when it comes to having multiple partners. Yeah, I've also had that experience where things are going well with a guy that you're dating, but then they get diverted by something and it's like you never existed. And it's just sort of like: "Hey, man, I didn't need a letter. But we were not nothing to each other." It's just like, sometimes it's amazing how single minded people can be about what they're looking for.

M: It's the communication on being able to say: "Okay, my new partner is no longer okay with this, and I have to change this relationship. We can still be friends."

J: Or like: "Hey, I'm doing this thing. I just don't have as much bandwidth right now for dating, but, like, I'll let you know when I do again." Yeah, I've said that to people. I tried saying to somebody, it's not the vibe I'm looking for. And he, like, challenged me on it, like, explained that. And I was just like, I'm trying to be nice and tell you I don't want to see you again. Like, I don't like you.

F: Yeah, it doesn't sound as good as. I don't have the bandwidth.

J: Yeah, I don't know. The bandwidth is good. The last person I just was having a text message exchange with a guy that I went on one date with and just felt no chemistry with, like, he was fine, a nice guy. I'm sure he's perfect for somebody. It just wasn't for me. He said: "So, like, when can we hang out again?" And I said: "I really enjoyed meeting you, but it's not really the connection that I'm looking for."

M: Which I think that's a really nice one.

J: And he said: "What type of connection are you looking for?" And I was like: "Physical chemistry."

M: But did you say that?

J: Yes, he forced me to because I did have a moment of like, should I continue to be vague? But it, and then he just wrote back: "Interesting." Oh, I guess, I guess it's interesting.

J: I don't know.

F: How interesting that you're looking for someone with a physical connection.

J: I know, how unusual of me. I don't know. I mean, interesting maybe because he felt and I didn't, or interesting. He wasn't expecting that to happen. I don't know. I give very good date in that. Like, I don't, I'm pretty poker faced until the follow up about how I felt. If I don't want to see someone again, they probably won't know until they reach out to me. Maybe I should be better about just being like, this was fun. I don't know. I wish I was brave. I wish I was brave enough to say that to somebody's face. I don't know what's better.

M: I mean, I guess there's no better. It's like, I mean, the most important thing is that you're being honest. You know, whether it's the night of or a week later or whatever, it's, you're still communicating and that's what people are looking for is at least to know.

J: Yeah.

M: The fact that he followed up with a yeah, follow up question of combating here, your statement is just showing that he is, like, in a way, trying to compare himself of like: "Oh, what could I have done better," in a way.

J: Sure. And I'm down to give constructive criticism, I guess. But there's nothing you can do about that, right?

F: Or you could just be, as she said, that he felt the connection, so he was just like, really? Sometimes guys are so oblivious about those things.

J: Sorry, guys, but it's true.

K: Just hanging my head.

J: We still love you. We still love you, though.

M: So did you guys never want to have kids or was this kind of a discussion you came to?

K: No, we. As long as we've been together, we've been having the conversation and we check back in about it every once in a while. And it's never been something that either of us wanted to move forward with, so.

J: Well, uh, and now it's pretty settle. The vasectomy is really good news.

K: Yeah, I mean, my doctor did say that she makes a lot of money reversing vasectomy, so that's another point.

J: Not impossible. But it would have to be pretty intentional.

K: Yeah, but another good talking point for guys out there that are interested about it, because you can get it, and it's not final. Final. It can be reversed if it needs to be.

J: I think all men should get vasectomies and then get it reversed when you want to have. You're ready to have kids.

M: Oh, I like that idea.

J: Yeah, right. Like, it's not a big deal, guys. It's not hormonal. It doesn't really mess with your body. You feel a little sore in the stones for a week.

M: I'm curious. I don't know if we've talked about it yet, but. How long have you two been together?

K: We met nine years ago.

J: We got married like a year and a half after we met, which was sort of crazy. It was crazy fast. If I was giving myself advice, I would have been like: "Whoa, whoa, hold on." Like, we just moved in together. But it's worked out, so.

F: So by the time you decided to get married, what was your involvement in non-monogamy? How far had you gone?

J: We at that point, had dated people together and separately a bit. But we were, I think at that stage, mostly seeing people together. Like, if we were to look back at the people that came to our wedding versus the people, if we were to get married, you know, next month, the people that we would invite, it would look really different.

K: Yeah, I think there was definitely a point when we first got together where we were dating other people, but we had this idea in our mind that, well, we have our friends from the regular world and then our friends from this weird party world that we're a part of, and we didn't connect at all at that point, that this was probably going to become our closest friends, which...

M: You fools.

J: Yeah.

K: It turns out to have definitely become our closest friends.

J: Well, and I organize parties now. Like, I think I had this sense of, like, well, we don't want to become, like, those people, like, orgy people. That can have, like, all these, like, robes.

F: I'm gonna make you guys t-shirts. Yeah, we're orgy people.

J: Yeah. We sort of thought, like: "This will be a thing that we can dip into, like, every once in a while, and, like, then we'll go back to our vanilla life, and no one will know." But then we started getting to know the people that we were partying with, and it turned out that we had a lot in common with them beyond sex and relationship.

F: And how did you enter that community?

J: We were dating a woman together, and she invited us to her birthday party, and there we ran into the other woman who we'd gone on the double date with, and she invited us to a Hacienda, christmas party.

K: Yeah. We essentially cornered her and said: "Hey, I know this obviously didn't work out with the date, because it's been a year, and we are just running into you again, but we're very curious about this community, and you seem pretty connected. How do we find out about parties and things?" And I don't remember. She said: "Oh, no problem. When do you want to go? I'll hook you up." And so we went to a party with her. It was Hacienda. That was our first, and that was really our introduction to the play party scene, definitely. But on a greater scale, kind of, to the community, because we started to meet more people then as we started to go to more events, people that had been doing it for longer than us, people that were like us just getting started all over the spectrum.

F: Yeah. Well, since sounds like you guys have a lot of experience in play parties and also organizing them, which we'll get to. What were some of the things that were maybe, like, difficult at the beginning, if there were any? Like, I'm assuming you guys had a talk about expectations before, but was there ever a time where that didn't go as expected or some lessons that came along the way?

K: I think that story about the threesome that we had at the bar that I can't name. Oh, yeah, at the bar.

J: Well, how is that answering the question?

K: Well, it's answering the question.

J: You just want to talk about that threesome.

K: I do love the story, but coming out of it, it was pretty difficult for you. And I feel like I had pushed that threesome because you were interested in the gentleman from the bar.

J: Well, I think the short answer is that we had a lot of misses when it came to communication. I think we got in some conflict about not checking in before going to a date or an event. And we definitely had some conflict around aftercare and how to process things that had happened, because sometimes the things that would happen would be very intense.

K: Yeah, that was intense.

J: It was intense. Yeah, I met a bartender at a bar and hooked up with him in the bathroom. This is not a very me thing to do, but I knew that you would really like it, so I texted him about it, and he thought it was really sexy. And then we, like, went. The bartender was texting me, and I was like, I'm gonna come by with my partner just so they could meet.

K: This wasn't the same night.

J: No, it was a different night. It was a different night just so they could meet. And then the bartender was like: "I can close the bar right now. Like, I can lock the door."

K: Yeah, I was.

J: : And we could go downstairs, and we were like, I was not expecting. Like, it wasn't. It sort of happened organically, but in. a way.

K: It wasn't planned.

J: It wasn't planned on my end. It just sort of happened in this very porn way. And so we went with it. But, yeah, it was intense. And I don't know if I got upset with you afterwards or I was just having feelings about how intense the experience was. And I think you felt bad because you felt like you hadn't been there for me in some way, but there was no way that you could have been there for me in the moment. And you did everything right. It was just that I didn't really know how to process.

K: Yeah, you just got afterwards. You just got emotional afterwards. I mean, literally, when we were walking home from the bar, you started to get pretty emotional about it. And that backed me up to: "Oh, God, what? Um. Did I do this? Did I mess this thing up really bad? Did I push this situation?"

M: What was it that made you feel emotional or, like, what was there for you?

J: I think that there was still, at that stage, like, some shame around, like, being hypersexual and, like, being the focus of that kind of attention felt, like, a lot. And also just, like, I need a lot of emotional preparation before going to parties or going on dates and stuff. And it's really sexy and cool when something happens spontaneously, but I think I just wasn't ready for it. So maybe I sort of went along with it because I didn't want to stop the momentum of this thing. And I think of it as a positive experience. It wasn't, like, traumatic or anything, but I think that's sort of what was going on afterwards when I was having a little cry.

K: Yeah.

F: So now you would probably be like, maybe another time or whatever it was. Maybe also a lesson for you to kind of set a boundary there.

J: I think so, yeah. I'm much more communicative about how I'm feeling. And it's taken me a really long time. Like, I've just gotten to a stage where if I'm not feeling something sexually, I will just stop. That sounds really dumb and basic, but it's difficult. Yeah. It's difficult not to let sexual situations escalate, to sort of the logical conclusion, even if, you know, because sometimes you say: "Okay, well, maybe I'm not feeling it right now, but if we go along a little further, I'll start feeling it more." And now I just say, you know, I need to take a break. And then I say, okay, that I'm actually good.

K: I would argue that it's evolved, not awkward or strange, in that you know what you want and you stop a situation that you're not enjoying.

J: I'm also, like, much more particular now, too. I think that, like, my standards for that sort of thing have gone way up, too. So I'm, like, much more likely to be like, you know what? I'm good. I'm happy with everything so far.

M: I'm just gonna finish my drink...

J: Especially, like, in a play party situation where it's like, you know, there's so much going on. Maybe you don't want to, like, spend all night in a corner with some person. You want to be like: "Yeah, I want to, like, be back in the party. So this was great. Just not. What did I say? It's just not the connection that I'm looking for."

M: I still really like that line, though.

F: It is a good line. I think the one that didn't sound as great was, like, the vibe. What was the vibe?

J: The vibe, yeah. I was workshopping that, and I did not get a good response.

F: You go to the right one. You go to the right one.

J: Also, like: "Hey, I just don't have the bandwidth at the moment to continue this." There's also something you could say to someone at a party.

M: When I asked out he's my best friend, one of my best friends. now and you know, it's completely platonic. Like, we're very much past the stage. But at first, I had asked him out on a date, and what he said to me was, I think we're both really just polysaturated.

K: I like that, too.

M: You're right.

J: Yeah. So it can be done in many ways.

M: Yes. And I think that any way that you can do it that takes the sting off of the rejection. Even if it's not 100%, the truth is still a nice thing to do. I'm a big fan of the diplomatic white lie when it hurts no one.

F: Yeah. But I think that also someone I interviewed in the podcast, Valentin Awake and Sexy, is his Instagram. He was also saying that, yes, you know, if you can find a nice way of saying it, great. But also if you can't, better to say stop. You know, even if it's, like, super awkward that don't say anything. Right? Because you're just trying to come up with the perfect way of saying it. And there's really no perfect way. So, like, better that you're not doing something that you don't want.

Thank you guys so much for listening today. Don't forget to check out the next episode, which is honestly even better than this one. So if you enjoyed this one, I'm sure that you will love the next one. Thank you so much for tuning in, and I'll see you all next week.