Jenny: Our expectation of each other was that you could have deep friendships and partnerships with other people, but you weren't like, supposed to fall in love outside of our partnership. And I think I probably felt more strongly about that than you did. But I was the one that fell in love with a partner. The lesson that I learned is that there's nothing finite about love, but there is about time and your priorities. And, you know, you really do have to make some hard choices sometimes when you have feelings for more than one person, and that can be really difficult.

Fernanda: Hi everyone. I am Fer, your host. And today we bring you the second part of our conversation with Jenny and Kris. Mariah, my best friend and occasional host of the podcast, joined me on this episode as well as on the last one, which. So it's a treat. And if you haven't listened to the first part, I would recommend you go and do that before listening to this one.

Although, honestly, this second part is my favorite because we really go deep into their experiences. We talk about how Jenny had a partner for about four years and how she fell in love with this person. And this was someone who just kind of wished that she was her primary partner, so she had to struggle kind of balancing both relationships. I know a lot of you ask, what happens if my partner falls in love with someone else? So this episode really answers that question. And, we also talk about how Jenny started organizing parties for the non-monogamous community. I'm actually going to one that's coming up. It's not catered specifically to non- monogamous people, but there's still probably going to be a lot of that crowd because Space Invaders, which is the name of their platform, is known for those events too. So if you're one of those people who are looking for community and want to check it out, you just need to follow the link in the show notes. The name of the event is Purple Haze. It's happening on 4 20, which is the weed holiday. We'd love to see you there. And if you can't make this event but you are in New York, you can just follow them on Instagram and stay tuned for all of their upcoming events. Okay, guys, I am so excited for you to hear this conversation. So let's just get to it. Here's my interview with Jenny and Kris.

Mariah: So I want to know more about your events that you throw. I've been to one Fresh Meat and it was lovely. It was years ago, but yeah, I just, I just remember coming out of it just being like: "Wow, this is really cool that there is a space for people who are just dipping their toes in." There's no expectations. There's just like a meet and greet of non-monogamous, curious people.

J: Yeah, we, so my business partner Ella and I met going to play parties. We, just sort of like entered the community at the same time and became friends by kind of like seeing each other and like, given the little, like, side wave, like: "Oh, you too, huh, huh." And, um, yeah, we sort of knew a lot of the same people but weren't super close. And then I think the, a lot of the parties that we had sort of come up in stopped happening for various reasons. Sort of like the bigger parties kind of fell off. And it seemed to me like there was a space for an organizer to step up into. And there were very few parties that were female organized, or produced by women. And I asked Ella if she would be interested in producing a party together, even though we had no experience. And she said yes. And we did. We threw a play party together. And in spite of our own expectations, it, like, went really, really well. And we kept doing it. And as we were doing it, we were finding the logistics of throwing a play party for 150 or 160 people difficult.

There's a lot of moving parts, but one of the most difficult parts for us was vetting people. So we had, we only wanted people to be at the party that we were one degree removed from. So people that we knew personally could bring a guest that they knew well and could vouch for. But we also then wanted to expand it a little bit further to not just a one to one, but, you know, maybe you have like three or four people that you'd like to recommend for this party, but we would also want to have other people sort of second that nomination. So we would go and see what friends we have in common and talk to them and see if anyone had any misgivings about a person. And it just took a really, really long time.

M: Yeah, I can only imagine.

J: Yeah, it was a lot of messaging back and forth. It just like, it wasn't ideal and it didn't seem like a good way to, I don't know. We were having a hard time proceeding with this model. So.

F: Yeah, I remember I once brought a friend and I remember it being a process, but I think that, I mean, as you said, it's probably very time consuming, but I think that maybe that's also partly why the vibe just always felt right in your parties?

J: Yeah, it wasn't something that we were ever considered getting rid of because I think it's so important to have a space where people feel really safe and also where you can trust the people that are there to behave in a way that's respectful and, you know, that is aligned with our values. So we conceived of fresh meat as a way to like, just get more people, more eyes on more people. And we're like, if only we could just for people that are brand new, that want to come to a play party, what the ideal thing would be is if somebody that we know and trust dates them and then they can give us like a full report on this person and we don't have to do as much reconnaissance on them because like, they'll have known them and seen them in, a bunch of different situations and they'll be able to tell us what they're all about. So this idea of fresh meat, which is basically just a cocktail party where everybody who attends is either non-monogamous or they're curious about non-monogamy or.

F: They're polycurious, right?

J: Oh, yes, or they're either poly or polycurious. And so, yeah it was a way to get people who are fresh, who are brand new in front of people who are more experienced and for them to sort of like benefit from each other's experience. And it worked really well to the point where that's sort of become our most frequent and long running event. I think we've probably at this point thrown like, I don't know, like maybe 30 or 40 fresh meats. We also did digital versions during lockdown where we had like digital speed dating, which sounds really silly, but actually like, people have given us really good feedback.

F: It was fun. I did it.

J: Yeah. I think in that time when people were sort of grasping at any lifeline for socializing, it was a nice thing to do. I don't think we would do it anymore. Yeah, I think people are really hungry for connection. And that's not just during lockdown. I think the thing that I've learned from throwing events is that people really want to get together and not just for sex. I think sex is sort of the candy coating of the bell.

But the medicine is actually community and that's what people are really looking for. And I think the strength of the community that we have here in New York is, you know, I think that people who approach relationships creatively or that are people who will say: "Yeah, I'm not, I'm not just going to accept the relationships that have been modeled for me by my parents or by the people around me growing up. I'm going to find my own way." Just tend to be the type of people that I get along with generally in a lot of ways. Like, if we have that much in common, we tend to have other things in common too.

F: Yeah. I think that, you know, people who are able to think outside the box in their relationships, like, also think outside the box in, like, their professional lives and in their, you know, so they just create really interesting things. They are just interesting people. You know, I mean, that's kind of how I came into the non-monogamous m community. Not even through having sex with people, but just through having friends who I was like: "I like these people. Oh, it turns out that they're all non-monogamous. I guess that I should also be non-monogamous." Like, I guess the last freshmeet I went to, yeah, there were, like, people who were really outside of the community, but I was very, you know, happy that they had a way to be introduced to it, because there's a lot of people who feel lonely in this. In this journey. You know.

J: Fresh Meat was like a joke that I think I made very early on, which I love the name. I mean, it is what it is at this point. we actually had somebody kind of come at us for it and say that the name was very objectifying and that they didn't like the choice that we had made. And why? Just because, like, it implies this meat market. And they were like: "How am I supposed to bring a partner to this?" Like, you need to explain yourself. And it actually forced really think about, like: "Okay, like, how do you defend this choice?"

F: Well, because it's funny.

J: It's funny.

M: Yeah.

F: No, I think that's the way you.

J: That's our brand is like, we are a little cheeky and a little dumb, and we love a pun. And if you don't like cheekiness and a little dumb humor and puns, like, you're probably not gonna like our parties. But I also think too, like, on a deeper level, we do want to be objectified. Like, a little objectification consensually is very sexy. And I think, like, we embrace that part of the meat market.

M: I love that. That's cute. And I also have to say that. So I've only been to two different types or brands, I guess, of play parties, and I love both of them for different reasons. But I loved the play party that you threw. I've only been to one. And I just loved how it was such a great, like, extension of play and silliness and cheekiness as well as sexiness. Like, that was the first play party that I felt vibe. I am feeling myself and I'm wearing a costume, of course.

J: I'm so happy to hear that because, you know, I think with play parties, for me at least, it's good to acknowledge that it's a little bit weird and funny. Like, sex is weird and funny. And, like, when you're in a room, sometimes you, like, find yourself at a play party next to, like, a pile of bodies, like, swapping away, and you're having, like, you see a friend that you haven't seen in a while, and you're, like, catching up. And then you, like, look down and, like, see something, you know, and you're just like, this is funny. Like, it's a hilarious situation in some ways. And I think, like, sort of acknowledging that human bodies are weird and gross and funny can be sexy too.

F: Well, coming back to your relationship a little bit, because I know you guys have been together for a long time, and I mean, you were talking about how you had this rule of no dinners, and now there's no rules. Except for safety, which seems to be a thing with couples who have been doing this for a while. They serve very structured. But of course, that has come with building trust and mistakes and lessons along the way. So could you maybe share some of those with us?

K: It is a progression, I think, like you say you learn so much over time. And so we made a lot of errors at the beginning that you eventually start to iron out. I think a lot of those rules were based in lack of trust with each other because we were new, going back, you know, eight, nine years ago to now where we feel very secure with each other. So do you have any specific ones you're thinking of?

J: Yeah, go ahead. Yeah, I mean, I think, like, I didn't expect to fall in love outside of the relationship. That was sort of like. It wasn't really a rule, but it was like our expectation of each other was that you could have, like, deep friendships and partnerships with other people, but you weren't, like, supposed to fall in love outside of our partnership.

And I think I probably felt more strongly about that than you did. But I was the one that fell in love with a partner. And I think that the lesson that I learned, I mean, I learned so many things, but I think a big one is that, you know, I didn't know that I could be in love with two people at the same time. And I think I learned that you can be in love with many, many people at the same time. There's nothing finite about love, but there is about time and your priorities.

And, you know, you really do have to make some hard choices sometimes when you have feelings for more than one person, and that can be really difficult. There are definitely ways that I would have approached that relationship, that secondary relationship, differently, knowing everything that happened now. Yeah.

F: Yeah. Can you tell us a little bit more about that? About this person?

J: Sure. Yeah. We started dating very casually. He knew about this, that I was married, that I was open. Everything was very on the level. And it was very casual for a long time. And then we just sort of caught feelings for each other. And I asked Kris, like, can I, like: "How would you feel about me falling in love?" No, more like, leveling up this relationship. Like, kind of could I, like, if I, if I want to call him my boyfriend and like, be in a relationship with him, like, how is that? And we sort of, like, worked it out, but it was just really hard. Like, this was a person who was really new to non-monogamy. He'd never tried it before, and he was willing to give it a go because he wanted to be in a relationship with me, but it really wasn't his preference, I think, or like, his preference would have been that we would have been primary partners and then we could have been open from there. But he really didn't want me to be somebody else's primary partner. And he was always very direct about that. It was not a secret. And I think that created a really difficult dynamic in that he was not wrong to want a primary partner. But it was never something that I could offer him. And then I made a lot of concessions because I felt badly about not being able to offer that to him. And it eroded my relationship with Kris in a lot of ways until, like, we were in a real crisis.

K: Yeah.

J: Yeah.

K: Because you don't. It doesn't happen all at once. It's not like, oh, we were good yesterday, and now it's a crisis. It kind of develops over time. And you don't necessarily see the hurricane come in.

J: Yeah, it was like a perfect. It was a perfect storm in a lot of ways.

F: So how do you react, Kris, when she told you that?

K: I mean, I think I tried to as much as possible, let it, let it develop. And I never really thought it was going to get to the point where it was going to affect our relationship so much, I think I probably had some arrogance in that of: "Oh, we're fine. I know she loves me. It's all going to work out, no big deal." And then it got to be more and more of a big deal. And it was hurting our relationship to the point where it started to kind of maybe drive a wedge in between us, if that's the right terminology. I don't know. Whatever you would say.

M: I'm curious how the wedge was developed, though. Was it because you wanted to spend more time with this person, or you were constantly needing to give more resources to this person, or more time and more affection, more attention, all of that?

J: Yeah, both. I think the two of them have very different styles. And then I think that you are pretty passive in terms of, like, communicating what you want. I think your thing is more like, well, you know, like, I want you to be happy, and, like, I will, like, withdraw so that you have the space to, like, explore this thing. Whereas this other person, whose position felt more precarious, I think, to him, was always looking for validation, that he, that he was important, that I cared about him. And I think because I felt like I couldn't give him the ultimate thing that he wanted, I would just give him as much of all the other things. And so, yeah, it was just sort of chipping away at the time and the energy that I had for our relationship. There was a point at which I really do think the two were kind of existing. They were coexisting pretty well together, but I also had no time for anything else. I do creative work. I produced nothing in that time. Like, absolutely nothing. I had no bandwidth, for anything besides keeping these two relationships afloat. And then when I started pouring more time and energy into one, the other one just started really withering.

K: Yeah, no, I definitely started to feel like the secondary partner rather than the primary partner. And that was not something we had communicated. And it was pretty difficult, for sure.

J: Yeah, there was a lot of talk. There was a lot of, like, what's going to happen? Where. Where are we all going to end up? And in the end, we decided to stay together, and I ended things with the secondary partner. But it was a really hard decision. And, you know, I, if I had to do it over again, I would definitely, something that was really difficult for him was sort of acknowledging Kris existence in a weird way. Like, it was just easier for him to pretend that you were not a person, I think.

So it was like a really big deal that they meet in the first place, which happened pretty early on. But then he just never really wanted to be around Kris. And I think I would have insisted more early on that, that that was like a non negotiable for me that. Not that you two had to be friends or anything, but like that you had to be able to, you know, acknowledge each other. Like that you could like sit down at a bar and watch a sports game. Like one of your sports games that you have in common, you know, like that much should have been. Because I think that his not acknowledging you as a person hurt your feelings. And I also think it made it easier for him to imagine a future where he and I were together in a way that wasn't feasible. And if you had been more real to him and our relationship had been more real to him, I think it wouldn't have unfolded the way that it did.

K: Yeah. Just as an explanation of the timeline of this four years. Four years you guys were together and I was in the same room with him twice.

M: Wow.

K: Crazy. No, yeah. No, yeah, I can tell you the two times. No, you know, the, I totally understand where he was coming from. He wasn't polycurious whatsoever. So for him it was just much easier if he didn't see me or know me. And I kind of came at it from the beginning of: "Oh, you're getting to know this guy in the first year or two. You seem very interested in him. Can I come watch you guys have sex? Can I do all these things?" And that always, when presented to him was not something he was interested in. So I was like: "Okay, I can chill a little bit and let you guys do your thing." But then obviously it went a lot farther than I ever expected that it would. And so. Yeah.

F: Yeah. So after, well, first of all, thank you for sharing all that because I think that's one of the biggest fears and one of the biggest questions people have. Like, and also one of the biggest boundaries. Right. You had that boundary. Like, I, you didn't want Kris to fall in love with someone. But as you experience yourself, I always say it's not something that you can control. So if you're going to go into this mode of relationship, it is a risk. But also, you know, it does not mean that your relationship has to end. It does not mean that, it's going to be a negative thing even if your relationship ends. So, yeah, I mean, sounds like you learned from that experience. But having had that experience, do you think it would be possible now or have you, Kris, falling in love with someone? Or do you think it would be possible to actually have two primaries or two people that you see in the way that you were seeing them, but in a sustainable way?

K: You go first.

J: I don't know. I think I had to learn to sort of make myself my own primary in that. Yeah, it's really easy to give away your time and your energy to people who you care about and who are in need of attention. Yeah, I don't know. I would love to fall in love again. I love the experience of falling in love, but I think I'm much warier now because, you know, this whole experience kind of broke my heart. And I think that it would be difficult to. I could never fall in love in that same way again with like, that sort of innocence of maybe this will all be fine. Like, maybe we'll figure out a way to all coexist and it'll be beautiful. And, you know, we did for a little while, but there was also a lot of pain.

So I think it would be hard for me to do, not impossible. If I was going to be with somebody, even as like a secondary partner, I would really want them to be somebody who really valued their independence. Somebody for whom that situation was ideal in some way. Like, either they don't have the time or the energy to like, invest in a primary partnership or they already have a primary partnership or, you know, something where it's like: "Oh, yeah, that's what I'm looking for too," or it doesn't feel like something that they're settling for. Then maybe. And for you, you don't. You've never wanted a secondary partner?

K: I don't know that I have. We're using the word bandwidth earlier. I don't know that I have the bandwidth to have a secondary partner. It doesn't necessarily appeal to me, the idea of having two or three or four, whatever the number may be. I'm really. My comfortable space is having Jenny and then, more kind of casual dating in and around that. That's not to say I couldn't fall in love. Just like all of us, that feeling of falling in love is awesome. We all, we all love that. And having that option out there even is really appealing. But, yeah, I don't know how it would work in practice. It would take a lot for me and I'd probably get there and realize: "Oh, boy, I got some work to do."

F: Yeah, I mean, as you were saying, Jenny, you couldn't do any creative stuff because you had these two primaries. And I'm not saying that there aren't people out there who can do it, but. Yeah, I don't know how that is possible, you know, and it's something that I'm like, curious about. And I know a lot of people are curious about as well, because even I've had listeners asking for episodes about how to handle two primaries. Right. Or two serious partners, however you want to call it.

M: Yeah, I remember when I was dating Logan and James, and, you know, it was a six month period before Logan and I had broken up. But yeah, I just remember that this time was so draining in a lot of ways. So I did have to try to find ways to manage my schedule better. And one tip that I have is a shared calendar. It's actually a really good one, especially with your primary, just kind of knowing when things are happening. Obviously always having like a conversation about it first before you just like: "Hey, by the way, I'm going on a date. You got the calendar invite." Right, but you know, just having a space where you can be like: "Oh, I have a date four weeks from now. And we'll remember that because it's, it's there."

F: We like to always end our interviews asking, what would you tell to a polycurious person? I know that you, you already said a lot of things to polycurious people, but is there any final message that you guys want to leave us with?

K: I always try to tell people who are new to really try to work on the jealousy conversion part of things because it can be so rewarding to, you know, even in a situation like Jenny had with this long term relationship, it was still at the beginning very exciting for me to see her go through this and made me very happy, so if you can get past that the jealousy that every one of us have, I have it too. I'm not saying I'm, I'm immune to it, But if you can get past that initial jealousy and really feel excitement for your partner and having some of these experiences, that's the, that's, I think, the focus for someone new coming into it.

F: I love that. Yeah, that's great. But how do you do that? How do you do it?

K: Yeah, I mean, really checking in with yourself. I don't know. I'll try to tell this quickly. But going all the way back to a college relationship, My serious college relationship that I had was a two year long relationship with the woman that I remember when we had already gotten somewhat serious and I saw a picture of her and an ex boyfriend, which this is high school, it's obviously nothing, right? And it made me almost furious inside. I was like: "Oh"

J: You've come a long way.

K: But that's the thing. I walked away from that experience, that feeling going: "Why am I so worried about this relationship that happened in high school? It's meaningless. She's with me. This person doesn't even go to the same school, the same college that we go to, so why does it matter to me?" And years and years of working on that. All right, how do I figure out that emotion? Is it even an emotion or is it just a conditioning of people around me that I grew up with saying: "No, you love one person, you will only have sex with one person. That's how we do things."

And kind of working through that, going, I don't think that's the way I see it. And really having the confidence to say that's not the way I think it should be, you know, so, yeah, I don't know, what do you have? Does that help with anything?

J: I think like, for me, a lot of it had to do with like accepting jealousy and not necessarily feeling like it always has to be a negative thing or a sign that you're not evolved enough to be doing this. But like learning to live with jealousy and learning to play with jealousy a little bit and how like a little jealousy is healthy because it's showing you that this is something you value. And it can also be like a little sexy to have, you know, like, don't, don't eradicate jealousy a hundred percent from your relationship because then like, yeah, I mean, you'll miss it, I promise, if it's completely gone. Yeah, that little teeny edge.

M: Been there.

J: Yeah. I think, you know, it's sort of like the canary in the coal mine that tells you, like, this is something that is important to you. Don't let it get out of control. If something is really hurting you, examine it. See if you can get over it yourself. And then if you can't, like, talk to your partner about it, see if you can get reassurances for it. See if you can, you know, set up the situation in a way that feels better to you. But also like, I think it's really healthy to just kind of like sit with the feeling and like, realize that it's not going to destroy you. Like, if the person comes back, it's because they want to be with you. The thing that I would tell people who are curious, polycurious people is that this might not be for you. Like, this might be something that you try on for a little while, a month, a year or whatever, and then decide ultimately that what you want is a monogamous relationship. You might meet somebody with whom that's, monogamy is the way forward.

I just like that people are aware of it as an option and that they know that relationships can be as monogamous or non- monogamous as they want them to be. As feels good to them. And it can change even the course over, it can change even over the course of a single relationship. Like, we've had times when we were less open and times when we were more open. And that's all fine if it feels good.

K: Yeah. I appreciate you saying that about jealousy because that's not my intent to eradicate it. It's just to turn it into something that can be fun and exciting. And I love to hear every detail of Jenny's dates. Maybe more than most people, but, but that jealousy edge of it is what makes it exciting. Yeah.

J: Like, can I do better? I think the important thing, and you know, it is possible that your partner will meet somebody and fall in love and end your relationship with them, and that will suck. But that happens all the time in monogamous relationships too.

K: That's not a reason to be afraid of poly.

J: Yeah, like, you're not gonna. You can't keep that person chained to the radiator. So. So I don't know. To me, our relationship is about saying yes to each other every day as opposed to just not knowing or being aware of other options. Like we're choosing to be together. Even though we know very well about other options, that we have sex with other options, that we spend time with other options for relationships, but we still want to be with each other. That's very meaningful to me.

M: It's so beautiful.

J: Thanks.

F: Yeah, that's beautiful. I love this conversation. Guys, thank you so much for being on the podcast.

K: It's so fun to talk about all this.

F: I know, I know. I do want to have a part 2, but we'll see. We'll see if I have the bandwidth.

J: I just wasn't feeling the vibe.

F: No, definitely feeling the vibe. But I might not have the bandwidth. Thank you guys so much for joining us today. Please remember to subscribe to the podcast if you haven't already share it with a friend. You can also follow us on Instagram and reach out there or to my email polycuriouspodcast@gmail.com and again, if you are in New York and would like to check out next week's event that Jenny is putting up, you can follow the link in the show notes and also there you can find their Instagram, where you can stay tuned for their upcoming events. Thank you so much for tuning in and I'll see you all next week.