Jessica: I have the version of Jessica that I am when I'm with Pasha, and then I have the version of Jessica when I'm independent. And it's not to say that like we hide these parts from each other, it's just that my relationship to someone else because of who they are draws out a completely different aspect of me that Pasha can't. Generally, it has to be ignited by someone else, by this like shared energy. And so I really love playing separately because we then get to express this different part of ourselves.

Fernanda: Hi everyone. Welcome to Polycurious. This is Fer, your host and today I speak with Jessica Esfandiari, the host of the Open Late podcast. I was a guest on her podcast last year, which you can find in the show notes if you're interested in checking it out. And today, Jessica tells us how this podcast came to be. We also talk about her journey opening up in her relationship after what she calls an accidental threesome. And how she went from hiding her open lifestyle even from her closest friends, to having a podcast about non-monogamy. We also talk about the evolution of her nine year relationship with her partner Pasha, and about their experience being in a relationship with a woman called Lauren. Jessica tells us how the three of them started together and then it transition into only Jessica and Lauren and how eventually they moved that relationship to a friendship.

And I think this story really shows how connections can evolve and go from romantic to friendship or from sexual to romantic or whatever the case might be. And that is why it's better to just go along with the ride as opposed to trying to control how relationships should look like. We also talk about the reasons why she likes being polyamorous, including seeing a side of herself she doesn't always express. with her partner Pasha. If you like what you hear, please don't forget to subscribe to the podcast. Also, Jessica and I had so much fun chatting that we wanted to do an Instagram live where you'll have an opportunity to interact with us. Ask any questions you may have, non-monogamy or otherwise, and it will likely happen in May. So if you want to stay tuned for that, follow me on Instagram at Polycurious podcast where you'll find more information. That's also where you can write to me if you are interested in relationship coaching. Okay. Hope you enjoy my conversation with Jessica.

Jessica, welcome to Polycurious. I'm so excited. I enjoyed so much the conversation that we had on your podcast and I had to kind of keep the questions for this opportunity. So I'm just glad, that we're finally here. And yeah, just excited to have you on the show.

J: Yeah, I'm excited to be here. Thank you for having me, love. Yeah.

F: Yeah. So why don't you start by maybe just telling us a little bit about your podcast, which is how we ended up connecting. Which, yeah, I've been listening to and I love. And it's another great resource for people out there and for listeners who might also listen to this podcast. So, yeah, why don't we start there?

J: Thank you. So, yeah, Open Late is the name of the show. It was really a way to kind of share this side of my life in a public way, which I hadn't really done much. My husband and I have been an open relationship for the entirety almost of our whole relationship together. So, you know, almost a decade. We were monogamous for about six months before we sort of dove in. And so this podcast was a way to take all my learnings and like, the things that I've navigated over the years and the changes that have happened in our relationship because there have been so many chapters and share that with people in a way that like, hopefully helps them. It's really the inception of the pod. Yeah.

F: And it's amazing. I'd love to hear a little bit about your process, kind of you know, keeping it secret and keeping your open relationship secret and opening it up. And I guess a little bit of context that would be helpful for the listeners would be, you know, how you guys open up your relationship. Because I know it was a spontaneous process. It wasn't like something that you guys talked about or planned. So can you just like tell us a little bit about that?

J: Yeah, sure. We had our first sort of accidental threesome, I call it, before we were even married. We kind of dated casually for about nine months and then we didn't speak for a while because we were like doing other things and he was traveling and I wanted to maybe be in a more serious relationship. And then we came back together. I mean, at the time we were in our late 20s and he moved in. Like we went from, you know, being like, hot and heavy in this, like, you know, sexy, like, encounter, but we didn't have a commitment, for nine months to not speaking and then to boom. He's like: "I want to be with you for the rest of my life."

We moved in together and we just adopted monogamy because that was the norm. And that's all either of us knew. And about six months into living together, we had a threesome with a friend of mine who was not premeditated. Like, she and I definitely always had a connection. There was like chemistry between us, but we never acted on it. And I knew that I was always attracted to women, but it was like this thing that was like in a box that I didn't really do anything with. And so we were out, one night, the three of us, and we just ended up kissing, she and I. And then one thing led to another, we all went home together and we had this like beautiful, beautiful experience, life changing experience. And we ended up sort of carrying on a little bit of a relationship with her. It was more like, you know, long weekends and it was very physical. But she and I had been friends for a while, so we had that as well.

And the two of them had a nice budding relationship. Like they would see each other one on one sometimes, like if I was out of town. And I think it lasted maybe a year, maybe. We saw each other a handful of times over that time. And then she ended up getting into a relationship, a monogamous relationship, which is what she wanted. And so we kind of parted ways and it was really amicable. And that was sort of our first, you know, foray into this type of lifestyle. And then we were married about six months after that first sort of threesome. And we never really looked back. We just kept leaning into newness, curiosity. We had experiences sort of solo early on where I would date other men or I would go on some dates with other women, and he would date other women as well, if he was on vacation or I was. And then we did have our fair share of like, threesomes with other women.

We've had some threesomes with other men. And over the years it just sort of evolved. Like, you know, Pasha's, Pasha's heterosexual too, so he's looking for pretty much other women, but doesn't really want to or hasn't in the past, wanted to create these, like, long term relationships because that's not what he wanted. And we had a very different style in dating where I was like, I need consistency and connection. And I was super happy. I mean, at one point when we had first moved to LA, I met a guy and I kind of saw him off and on for about three years. And that was super fulfilling tome. Whereas Pasha, in that period of time had maybe dated, I don't know, 10 different women and not even really dated. It was more like vacation, you know, hot, sexy encounters. And so we had a very different style of how we related to other people in those early years. And we would go to play parties sometimes, or we'd go on vacation together and meet other people. And then when Lauren came into our lives, that's when things really shifted from being open and looking at these experiences as, like, adventurous and fun to: "Holy shit, we're in love with this person." And, you know, coming from a place where we were always. Besides the first woman and Lauren, who's kind of like the last that we dated together, everything in between has proved that it's really hard to find one person that you and your partner, like, are both attracted to, both want to be around, and that it's a mutual thing coming from that other person. And, you know, that's the entry point for a lot of, like, you know, heterosexual presenting couples where it's like: "Oh, we're going to find a third. We're going to find a unicorn." And it's like, people don't realize there's so much wrong with that scenario. Like, it very rarely works. So when

Lauren showed up in our, yeah, when Lauren showed up in our lives, we were like: "Oh, wow, this. This is a thing." And so I think that is what shifted us and was a whole new chapter of polyamory and learning how to really have someone else fully in our lives, in our relationship, every day. Yeah. So it's been a journey, but we've been almost, yeah, nine years.

F: Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah. And so many lessons in between, I'm sure. And I definitely want to talk about Lauren and your relationship, because it sounds like it's really special. But before that, I'm interested to hear, because I heard in one of your interviews that you talked about how much shame you felt around what you were doing and how at the beginning you kept it from other people, and now you have a podcast about it. Right. So, yeah. you know, you mentioned that the way that you let go of shame was kind of putting yourself in situations in which you knew that you might feel shame and kind of just exposure therapy in a way. So for listeners who might be experienced a little bit of shame around opening up or about exploring with people of the same sex or whatever it is, what's your advice? Or can you speak a little bit of your experience, putting yourself in those situations? What kind of situations? And how did you kind of come to the other side to now have a podcast and be public about it.

J: Yeah. Wow, that's a beautiful question and a loaded one. But I think, yeah, the exposure therapy thing is really interesting because people are like: "Oh, I want to overcome this thing, but without doing the thing." And it really is impossible. I mean, other than you could do some, I think, meditations, manifesting and sort of projecting an image of what you want to create. But unless you actually step into the fire, it's really hard to get through some things that we all live with, like shame and embarrassment, fear, anxiety. So for me it was really like: "Okay, you know, low hanging fruit, right?" Which I learned from the Ethical Slut. It's like, do the thing that's the least edgy and sort of master it. So, you know, I didn't really want to go on dates with other guys because I was worried someone would find out or, you know, someone would see me out. Someone would see me on a dating app and have questions. So it was like tiptoeing into that world little by little, and then really like bringing all those feelings to the surface and letting them sit, letting them be there. One of the biggest things that I can share is I've always learned to examine my thoughts. I'm a big personal development junkie and so I know the way the subconscious mind works or at least I, you know, can understand it a bit. We actually know very little about, about the mind, but its inner workings are that we have this voice that's always trying to keep us safe and keep us in a predictable lane. So little voices that pop up like: "This is not okay" or, you know, what are people going to think about you? Does this mean you're, you know, I grew up with words like slutty or whore, or whatever being like, really badwords. I had a lot of trauma around that in middle school, because of some things that had happened to me. So I was raised with this mentality to be like: "Oh, if people find out that you have like, lots of sex partners, they're going to judge you and you're going to be a slut." So I was very serial monogamous type of person my whole life. And I didn't really sleep with anybody that I that wasn't a boyfriend.

So, I mean, when I met my husband, I think I had had like sex with like seven people maybe, and what I started to do in those situations was question that voice. So when something would pop up: "Oh, this means this about you, or, you know, you're, you know, slutty or you're all you think about is sex, right?" Or you're like, insatiable. Like, if that would be my negative self talk, I would say, is that true? Right. And I would take that to, like, my journal or work on it and start to really question it because the voices in our head are not true. It's just trying to sort of keep us in this box because it's very predictable and we'll create the same life that we've been living. It's to always be in the question of, like: "Is this true? Is this what I want to subscribe to? Do I want to believe this negative self talk?" Or do I want to be in an environment where I let that guide me rather than be guided by my curiosities, my desires, my want and need for growth? Like, does this voice help me grow? Or just doing the thing that's scary and mastering it and being able to hear this voice and say, actually, that's not true about me. You know, I would think that people would think I was a bad person if they found out that, you know, my husband and I were in an open relationship. And, you know, when you get to that question, like, is that true? Does having a non traditional relationship style make me a bad person? But without the question of it, we're just thinking those thoughts all day long and we're accepting them as truth. We're identifying with those thoughts. And I didn't want to do that. So for the first couple of years of our relationship, it was like, total training ground for reprogramming what I thought about myself, which was very healing for me, coming from more conservative sort of background in that way.

F: Yeah, yeah, that's awesome you were able to do that work, you know, because a lot of people kind of just get stuck in that period of shame and they, like, never end up going after their desires or doing what's right for them. And I love how you mentioned the low hanging fruit, because as much as I do think that in your case, exposure therapy was great. You know, if you are ashamed of kissing another person, maybe you shouldn't be going to a play party straight up. You know, like, you, you have to go step by step. And I think that for me and my relationship with my partner, we opened up very gradually.

And I do feel that we really did like the low hanging fruit first. And then once he got comfortable with it, then we would, like, move. And in a way, it's just that it's impossible for us to actually know it. Until we experience it. Right. So, like, you have to go through the: "Okay, I have to, you know, tell someone that I'm open and then have them not think that I'm a bad person." You know, for me to feel safe. Or in our case, like, I need her to go on a date and have her come back to, like, know that this is okay.

Even though, like, you know it in your head, you have to sometimes just, like, experience it. Right. So. And it does get easy. So for people who want to open up or who want to let go of shame, like, don't go for the, you know, crazy thing at first because it can be traumatic. And then, yes, it can be counterproductive. But do, you know, push yourself a little bit out of your comfort zone. And then things that might be a little bit uncomfortable, then they just become so easy. Like, you are an example of that. Like, you were ashamed of telling even your closer friends about your open relationship. I know you have a podcast about it just because you put yourself in that place of doing it. Right?

J: Yeah, yeah. And it was, you know, you had asked the question was more like a two parter. And I didn't go into the second part, but you were like, how do you get to the podcast thing? And it's like once I mastered my own perception of myself, that internalized shame and misogyny that I was carrying around. Right. I was able to then look at everyone else and see sort of the pain and the suffering, true suffering that a lot of people in relationship that are trying to fit themselves into monogamy, into the one size fits all were experiencing. Because I was a coach for a long time and I still do some. But it was a big part of my work and I started to see a pattern in people, in couples. I would do these big weekend events and, you know, there were like 60 participants and maybe like 10 mentor coaches, and I got like a front row seat to people sharing. It was like the theme of this class.

The one time I was like, this is totally the universe. Speaking to me was like: "I feel like a terrible person because I'm in love with my partner. We've been together for five years, but I fantasize about other women. I am so ashamed that I hide the fact that I watch porn from my boyfriend. I have so, so much trouble being faithful. I hate myself. I fall in love and at about two years, I always end up cheating on my partner because I'm unfulfilled sexually. But I still love that person." And so you know, not that I'm saying that you should be unfaithful or break trust or an agreement, but I had so much compassion for these people. And this was right around the time that Lauren came into my life, and I had just opened up to my parents, and I was like: "Oh, my God, people. People are really hurting. Like, I get emotional every time I tell this story because it was kind of the moment when I realized that I have such an ability to help people, and I'm not doing it. And it's really because I'm worried about my own embarrassment or what people will think. And so it was, like, the final hurdle that I wanted to get over. And that's when

I really was like: "Okay, I'm going to tell my close friends in my community," because a lot of my coaching clients were people that I knew or acquaintances or that's how, you know, people were coming to me, and they started to come to me for relationship stuff. So I was able to start helping people who just not going to subscribe to the mononormativity, who wanted to explore their bisexuality or queerness, and who needed support, like dating, but not wanting to be monogamous or being in partnership and opening up. And so I had to get over that piece for myself. And then once I did, it was like: "Oh, I can help so many people." And I started to see the effects and the results of that, and then that was like, game changer, and there was no turning back.

F: Yeah, that's awesome. And I think also part of that process is kind of letting go of this idea of how things should be and just accepting the way things are, right? And kind of showing that to other people and showing, you know, I have this relationship, and it doesn't mean that I'm a bad person or whatever that is. And another thing that I loved, that I heard in one of the podcasts that I listened to you. You said that Pasha had also, like, helped you bring you back to, how do you feel about this? Like, instead of, like, thinking so much, like: "Oh, what does this mean? What does this say about me? Or like, what are people going to think" is, like, how does it feel, right? Like, does it feel good in your body? Because I feel like we tend to. And I mean, even to this day, even as someone who is open about. About being open and who understands different relationship dynamics, like, we sometimes want to wrap our experiences in the narratives that society fits us, and that's just not how they work, you know, and if you are just focusing on how you feel. Like, is this making me feel good? Then that's a real true north, rather than is it looking good or sounding good or whatever. So I really love that advice.

J: He's always been, like, my biggest teacher in a lot of this, I mean, in life, actually. But he's always been able to guide me back to, like, what's really important. And he's like, you have your life. You have this time here on earth. Like, don't live for anybody else. We've got to live for ourselves.

F: That's awesome. And on that note, I know that you opened up, or rather, you started dating people separately because you had already had experiences with other women, partly because he encouraged you to do that, because I believe he was on a trip. So can you speak of this transition? Because I bet a lot of couples might be thinking of, transitioning into that, but it's just really scary. A lot of couples just feel more comfortable playing together, and it's fine if that's where you want to stay. But, can you speak of that and what was difficult about that process and what was, you know, beautiful about it?

J: Yeah. So at first, I think us dating separately was really born out of. We were in different places in our lives. There was a lot of travel. We had really different schedules. And so as much as I think we love to have experiences together, for us it was easy because sometimes it was the only option. And it also showed us, too, when we would have experiences with people together, how hard it is to, like, really be into the same person or the same people. And so we realized that we were putting a lot of pressure on ourselves and each other to, you know, we were like: "Oh, let's meet. Like, let's meet up with a girl." Or even, like, you know, dating couples or, like, going into communities where people are more coupled. You know, there's always that hope that, like, everyone will connect and there'll be chemistry and, like, a vibe. But it's so rare. I mean, it's so, so rare. So I think that was, like, a little bit edgy for us because it was like, you know, our trauma responses come out well. Like, why don't you like her? Like, what's wrong? You know, this is, like, a great couple. Like, what's wrong? Or vice versa.

And I think for us, it was unlearning that pressure, like, that. I think we have, too, to, like, settle and to not think, like, that there is the perfect person or chemistry or whatever that you're seeking out there. So it helped us take that pressure off and to really do our own thing and to, as I was saying earlier, lean into the fact that we had different styles of, like, what we wanted out of outside partnership. And so navigating for us was always about what's serving us the most right now. And I would say for people who are interested in, you know, opening and potentially, like, playing separately, give it a shot. Because there's such a different dynamic when you are in a room with your partner. You are kind of grappling with the version of yourself that you are with them, which draws out different qualities, different energies, different identities. You know, it's. We're human. This is how we relate. Right? So I have the version of Jessica that I am when I'm with Pasha, and then I have the version of Jessica when I'm independent. And it's not to say that, like, we hide these parts from each other. It's just that my relationship to someone else, because of who they are, draws out a completely different aspect of me that Pasha can't generally. I mean, I can bring it to him, but it's like it has to be ignited by someone else, by this, like, shared energy.

And so I really love playing separately because we then get to express this different part of ourselves. If you think about yourself, we're like a pie, right? And so there's this whole area of me that I don't often use with him. You know, Pasha's not very, like, into art or theater or you know, music the way that I am sometimes. I mean, he is, but, like, in his own way. And, you know, I went to school for musical theater, and I was, you know, moved to LA to be an actor and, you know, comedian. So I would find that I could get that need met with other men or women, and I would have that part of me fully expressed by hanging out with someone that was working in film and television at the time.

This guy that I was sort of seeing for years. And then it would come back to my husband feeling fully expressed in this other way and being able to share this new part of myself that had been completely ignited. And because Pasha is so solid in who he is as a man and we'd done a lot of internal work, he was able to meet me of, like: "Oh, this is this amazing part of you that I haven't yet gotten to know. And I get these little glimpses of it rather than be threatened by it." And so that is the huge gift that I think people miss when it's like: "Oh, we only play together." There's. I. I do believe there's limited growth in that. It's not wrong, and especially if it's. You're feeling fully expressed in it, and there aren't huge parts of yourself that you want to explore outside of who you're already being. But, yeah, it's been. It's been some of the, I think the biggest kind of excitement factors for us because we also.

We get really turned on when the other one is with other people. So there's that. Like, it's, we realized that we had a very similar kink in that. Like, I want to hear about his other partners. I want to think about it. I like that I'm not there sometimes. I like that distance and that mystery. And it's the same for him. So. And we didn't know that until we tried it. You know, we were like: "Oh, I don't know how this is going to feel." And then you do it, and you check in with your body and you're like: "Shit, my body likes that. My brain is telling me it's wrong, but my body loves it." And so then there's the work of, like, connecting those two, you know?

F: Right. And I think there's a part in which everyone, you know, might feel like a little bit of something happening in their body when their partner is with someone else. Because it does make you a little bit more attracted to them because you are like: "Okay, this person is attracted to them." So it kind of like: "But they are mine or something." You know, there can be some, like, thing at play. But at the same time, not everyone has that kink. Right. Like, not everyone, enjoys thinking of their partner with other people. A lot of people, you know, prefer a Don't Ask Don't Tell dynamic or don't want to know. Even if just the idea that they're out on a date makes them feel like:"Okay, well, that must mean that they're really hot and attractive" and, you know, might help in that way. But I'm glad that you brought, you know, the fact that you were seeing this other person who was very different from Pasha, that was fulfilling needs that Pasha maybe wasn't fulfilling. Because I feel like sometimes it can be a little bit taboo to mention that to be like, you are not fulfilling all of my needs, so I have to go and get them elsewhere. And that's why it's so intimidating for people to date separately. Sometimes. But the truth is that if you are actually honest with what's actually happening, then it just adds to your relationship, because then, you know, you go with this person and do your artsy things, and then you come back, and you're just happy to be with Pasha and do your things that you do with Pasha because you already had that bucket filled. And at the end of the day, it just helps your relationship. But it's sometimes hard for people to admit, you know: "You are not my all. And I need to fulfill my needs elsewhere." Right?

J: It is, yeah. People. It's. It is hard to admit that. I mean, but the truth of the matter is, no one person can really fulfill all of your needs. If you really know yourself, and know yourself well. It's. It's, like, so rare that you're gonna find somebody that matches and meets every single thing you desire. Now, there are people who remain very happy without having outside sexual partners, and it's because maybe they're not leaning in and saying, like: "I want to have every desire that I have met." Right. Or they're focusing on other areas of their life rather than their pleasure or their intimacy, their stimulation in those areas. For us, it was like, we're never going to settle. We want the most out of life. We don't have kids right now. So that was sort of a driving force for us. And the other was we never wanted to put that pressure on each other. It's a lot to think, like okay, so if

I really wanted to go to plays all the time, and Pasha was, like, the only person, Right. That I would be like: "Oh, let's go do this." That would, I think, be exhausting for him. Right? Or, like, I want to talk about this book that I'm reading, or, you know, whatever. The thing is that I really enjoy.

And sure, like, you can have a lot of other friends that can meet those needs, which is why I love to talk about, like, polyamory, even in platonic, Because I have, like, friends that I feel like I'm in love with. But, like, I don't sleep with them. And so there's different ways to get your needs met, for sure. And I always encourage people in monogamous relationships to, like, lean into loving friendships and intimacy there as well. But at the end of the day, I was like: "I don't want to run around trying to meet all your needs, and I don't want the put. I don't want to put the pressure on you to jump through hoops. To be somebody that you're not. To make me happy," you know?

F: Yeah. And also, in a way, you know, the fact that Pasha is not those other things makes him be the way that he is because he couldn't be both. Right. Like, I was like reflecting on it because I dated this guy who I had a lot of fun with, but he was kind of made me feel unsafe in certain settings. And of course with my partner, I feel so safe and stable. And you know, sometimes I wish we had a little bit of more of the adventurous side, but then I'm with this guy who's adventurous and then I don't get the safety. Right. And it's just like sometimes you literally want two things that are opposite and you want them at the same time. So the same person couldn't do it for you.

J: Mhm. Yeah. I mean, basic human needs, number one and number two are consistency, and number two is novelty or safety, security, consistency. I know what's coming. And novelty and adventure is literally number one and two basic human needs. So we can have them in conflict or we can have it all.

F: Right. And as you said, there's people who don't need to have it all, but apparently we do. So here we are talking about it on this podcast. But, yeah, I want to transition into talking about your relationship with Lauren. Because I find it so interesting how it started being the three of you. Now seems like it's just the two of you. And yeah, I just want to. Wanted to hear a little bit more about that experience you had.

J: So, yeah, they knew each other from before. And when she sort of came back into our lives, or his life, it was in a setting where we all knew each other. And she sort of came into our friend group and it was like instant chemistry for them. Once she moved to LA and I saw that develop, I was super into it for them. I was like, this is great, I love seeing it. And it became very apparent that she also was interested in me. And so I was like: "Okay, this is amazing. She's beautiful. Very attracted to her." And the three of us fell into a very loving, very sexy, like, hot relationship for the first year. And then she and Pasha had a big transition. But it was sort of gradual where they shifted from really being like lovers to being best friends. And so the nature of their romance kind of fizzled out a bit. And it wasn't much of a, like they had a conversation. I think when they realized what was happening, it might have been a little bit like: "Oh, this is a bummer. But also, we're not going to force this." And they have had a beautiful friendship ever since. And so it's what I love about that is, you know, people look at that, you know, and say, like: "Oh, it's a failure. The relationship's over." It's not because they're still very close. She is a part of our family. She's here all the time. And she and I carried on a relationship, which lasted for another two years. In that way, we built a business together. You know, she's my best friend. And our romance as well, you know, I mean, we've known each other for, my gosh, like almost four years now. So our, our intimacy has, like, increased, but our, our romance has decreased a bit because I think we're business partners, we're best girlfriends. Like, she's like family. And so actually recently we've had a transition where we're like: "Okay, let's. Rather than feel like we're not measuring up in this area, is it something that we really both want to put effort and energy into?" Right. Dating, sleeping together. Right, having that, like, spiciness. And we realized that we value so many other aspects of our relationship together that we, that wasn't something that we felt like we wanted to pour energy into. And it was a really cool conversation to have because before that we would make these little jokes like: "Oh, yeah, she's my girlfriend. But like, we never have sex or we never this or." And we, we never called each other girlfriend. It was more like partner. We felt like life partners. And so rather than have this sort of subconscious energy of like: We're doing it wrong or we're not measuring up," we were like: "Oh, well, we're still in love and I want to be around you all the time. We're still very intimate." Like, we'll kiss on the mouth, but we don't want to be very sexual with each other. And we're just at different places in our lives too. She's definitely looking for a full time partner, her life partner. She's very interested in being with a man and having a family. You know, and I am about to have children and that's going to be like, you know, happening in the next year where we start a family. And I'm interested in creating more community in polyamory, to where when I do have a family, I already have a network of, you know, friends and lovers that I have as like my part of my family. Right. Cause I have a huge community in LA that is family. But none of them are open or polyamorous. So I'm looking to build that. So I want to put energy into that. She wants to put energy into finding her person. And we were like: "Oh, this is interesting.

We kind of moving in these different directions, but still together." And so we had that transition. It was very, you know, conscious. And now we're exactly the same as we were before, but we have more clarity around where we're going. But not much has changed.

F: Yeah. What I love about your story with her and with him is just that it just goes to show that relationships are just constantly evolving and that they don't have to look in a certain way, they don't have to fit a certain box. And it's just beautiful to have the freedom to let them be fluid. And for that you need to be communicating constantly. Right. Because it sounds like both of you were feeling kind of the same way. And Lauren and Pasha were also feeling the same way when they transition into friends from being partners or lovers. But not always everyone is on the same page. Right. So to allow for that fluidity, it's important to have that communication. But kind of going back a bit because you mentioned you were so excited about Pasha connecting with her. And I know that it's partly because, as you had mentioned, you have more of a polyamorous approach to your relationships. And sounds like Pasha has more, of a open or non-monogamous approach. And it sounded like you were excited that he would have that type of more romantic relationship with her.

J: I was.

F: Can you. Can you talk a little bit about that? Because there's the aspect of, you know, being happy for him, but also the aspect of kind of wanting him to have the same type of experience that you had, which I feel like a lot of couples go through, like, you know, they are just polyamorous or rather non- monogamous in different ways. And they just kind of want their partner to experience the same thing, but it's just not how reality works.

J: Yeah, it's true. I mean, I really wanted that for him, and I think he had to open himself up. There's a lot of vulnerability involved. And I was like: "Wow, I'm gonna get to see him from an outsider's point of view, like, fall in love with someone else." Which is what he looked like when it was happening with me. But I didn't get to see it. Cause I was in it. And so in some ways I wanted to view that and see that beauty. Because he's the person I love the most in the world. And like, seeing somebody fall in love is just so beautiful. Love is like the most gorgeous, like, joyful, blissful thing that we have in life, and I wanted to witness it.

F: But it's also the most scary thing for some people to even like, fathom their partner falling in love with someone. And not only falling in love with someone, but falling in love with someone right in front of their eyes. Right. So, like, how, how do you explain that to people who might just be afraid? You know, I know, I know that you are very, you must be in a very confident and secure place in your relationship, but it's probably also partly your personality. I'm not sure.

J: Yeah, I do want to point out too, is like, I was excited also to see someone, like, show him that back because I think that that dynamic is, like, really beautiful. And if you, if you love someone deeply, seeing them have more love in their life. Right. Can be really beautiful. As you're saying, it's also very scary. And I had very minimal fear. I don't want to, I don't want to sound like non relatable because everyone's like, how are you not jealous? I've just never really been the type of person to be jealous. I think jealousy also is a blanket emotion that people use for all sorts of things when they're actually feeling inside, insecure, afraid when they have a fear of abandonment, when they just might be angry.

And so I never really had a lot of jealousy. I, at that point in my life, was so secure in my relationship. Pasha and I had been together for seven years. We've been through so much. We are growing our lives, and I'm truly polyamorous in the way that. And I believe he is too. People are like: "Oh, well, what if they fall in love?" And I'm like: "What if?" And they're like: "Well, what if he wants to leave?" And I'm like: "Polyamorous. People don't have that thought process." Because if I was monogamous and if I was inherently a monogamous person, I'd be like: "Fuck, if he falls in love with somebody else, he might leave me." But if we're polyamorous, so he can fall in love with five other people and he doesn't have to leave me. That's the beauty of polyamory, is I get to be a part of his life and, you know, not that I want him to be in love with five people at once. Time is the only limited resource we actually have. Not love. We can keep dueling out love all we want, but of course time becomes a factor and I don't really want to compete for his time. But I'm very independent and I like my own time and I like that we have space in our relationship because for us it keeps us in an energy of newness. And so yeah, did I have a little bit of fear? Of course. Mine is insecurity. And I've grown up so much in that and I have so much internal personal self esteem now that I didn't have when I was younger. But you know, three and a half years ago there was some insecurity around like: "Oh, well, am I not enough, right?" That like old, very old voice popping up like, you know, a 13 year old girl. Does this mean that like I'm not enough for him? Because my thing wasn't jealousy. It was that I was brought up in a way that meeting everyone's needs meant that I was successful. And so needs have always been a really big thing for me and realizing that I don't want to meet all his needs because it's helping me undo my auto programming. But there was that and I'm like: "Okay, well what if this is born out of, you know, a place where he's like, gets, you know, frustrated or upset with me that I'm not meeting his needs and so then I have less value than someone else." Not really jealousy. It was like that and I get really into the nitty gritty of understanding my emotions because I think it's really valuable work. And I think when we blanket our emotions it's a bit lazy. But I weighed in and I was like: "Okay, I've got this feeling which is about 15% and then I've got excitement and curiosity and conversion, and also like a turn on about it because now it's like the three of us and all that stuff just outweighed any thing that I was feeling." And this is a big learning and I feel like it's important to note for people listening a lot of times when we have an uncomfortable emotion like jealousy, right, we'll just use it because it's what a lot of people fear. We're so not practiced in being with that emotion. So we resist it.

And what happens is it takes center stage. And so if you were going to be excited, if you were going to be turned on, if you were going to be curious, if you were going to have a really fun time if you're uncomfortable and you think you're wrong or bad or jealousy is going to be the death of you, it will completely take over any other experience that you could have. But being fully human means that we can fully experience a multitude of emotions at once and hold space for all of them. Because we're so dynamic, we're so multidimensional. It's not like I'm sad and that's it. You know, it's like I'm grieving, but I also have closure. And this is bittersweet. And I'm remembering these memories right when we lose someone. So in those situations, it's like: "Yeah, I'm a little bit jealous, but I'm also turned on. I'm like, excited. I have butterflies, but there's fear there." And so, just a long winded answer, but I think it's really important for people to hear. Just because you might be experiencing an uncomfortable emotion doesn't mean there's not a whole lot of other good stuff going on.

F Yeah. And I think that ties really well with what we've been talking about, which is just accepting things the way they are instead of trying to fit them into an idea that you have in your head or that society has placed on us and just, you know, listening to how your body is feeling and going with that and having that be how you make your decisions and not letting yourself be blinded by: "Oh, I should be jealous because..."

J: Right.

F: You know, this again, these ideas that we're fed by society. So. So I love that and, you know, really admire the way that you just live your life very authentically. And yeah, with that I just have one last question, which is, what would you tell to a poly curious person so that can be yourself when you started this journey? A message that you wish you had received or just some of the listeners of the podcast who might just be venturing into non monogamy, but are early in their, in their journey.

J: Yeah. Oh, I love this question. I would say just be open to change. As much as I, you know, became polycurious and became open and then fully poly, I have been resistant to change in my life. I like order sometimes and even though, like, I hardly have any, but I would get like attached to something of how things were supposed to look and I would get comfortable in one thing and then when it would go to shift, I would have that resistance. So I think if you're going to enter into non-monogamy in any capacity, whether it's monogamish to like, relationship anarchy, I would say get comfortable in the fluidity because the beauty of life and relationships is that they're constantly evolving. We're changing and growing all the time. And so to be really open to every new chapter, and to things not staying the same year after year, like: "Okay, we're open and this is how we do it. We only date, you know, together and other women, whatever that looks like, be willing to lean into the different edges and step outside of your comfort zone because that's where like the biggest gifts are." So really being open to change and accepting yourself at every new stage and chapter.

F: I really love that, because there's really a lot of change that comes with non monogamy and I think relationships in general and we tend to attach and just be afraid of that. So yeah, I think that's a beautiful message for our listeners. Thank you so. Yeah, thank you so much for that. Unless there's anything else that you'd like to add. That's it on my end. I really enjoyed this conversation and yeah, also enjoy the conversation I had in your podcast so people can go and check that out and as well as all of the other episodes that you have out there.

J: Thank you so much. Yeah, it's been a blast to be on the show and um, for people listening, if you are curious, Polycurious is probably why you're listening to this show. At Open Late we actually created a quiz and it's free and it's like a five minute quiz that can sort of help you decide which type of non-monogamy might be best suited for you. And it's free and I'm going to give you a link so that people can go and check it out if they want to.

F: Yeah, for sure. We'll definitely include that in the show notes. So thank you for that and all of the resources and wisdom that you shared in this episode. Thank you everyone so much for tuning in today. As usual, you can find Jessica's contact her Instagram and all of the resources we discussed in this episode in the show notes. And if you're interested in hearing a bit more of us, you can tune to our Instagram Live happening in May. If you want more information about that, don't forget to follow us on Instagram.