Natasha: I read this book and I was like, you know, sitting with my insecurity and my jealousy, and it just asks you to kind of understand what your body experiences as you think through your biggest fears. And that's when something just clicked and I was like: "Oh, my fear of him being with other women is actually making my body feel kind of good. Like, when I actually stop and picture it, I'm getting really, really turned on." And then we had a threesome soon after that and I went and had a water break and I came back and instead of that potentially being a point where I'm normally jealous, I was like: "Oh, my God. It just felt like that was the hottest thing I'd ever seen was him being with a woman."

Fernanda: Hi, everyone. I am Fer, your host and this is Polycurious. Today I had a wonderful conversation with Natasha and Jeremy, the couple behind All the Feels. They are both certified sex coaches working on empowering people to have better sex lives. They educate through their Instagram, which you should definitely follow by going to the link in the show notes. And they also create educational porn videos as well as regular porn. And today we chat about how they were inspired to create this platform and empower other people to take charge of their sexuality, just like they did earlier in their journey. We also talk about something which I found fascinating, which is how Natasha went from feeling a lot of jealousy when seeing Jeremy having sex with other women to actually turning it into a kink. So if you find yourself kind of turned on by group play situations, but at the same time insecure about them, I think you might resonate with this episode in the second part of our conversation, meaning next episode, which is coming out next week. They give us so many tips to have successful threesomes and overall great communication during sex, whether it's with one person or many people. So please don't forget to check that out. It's also a really, really good one. If you like what you hear today, you can also join us. On Sunday, May 7, I will be doing an Instagram live with Jeremy and Natasha. You'll have an opportunity to interact with us, ask us questions about sex, about non- monogamy. If you want to find out all of the details, just go and follow me on Instagram Polycurious Podcast.

Okay, guys, this is a juicy one, so let's get to it. Here's my conversation with Natasha and Jeremy from All the Feels.

So, Natasha and Jeremy, welcome to Polycurious. This is very exciting. Full disclosure here. I actually met you guys on Feeld this is, this is which we might get to talk about. Actually. I think that that might be an interesting topic for people. I was there, like, for a month, and then I was like: "Okay, I'm done with this."

N: Yeah, it's a lot. It can be a lot.

F: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, we should definitely talk about that. But this is actually the first time that we meet in person and, yeah, I'm excited to hear more about your platform. We kind of, like, connected and realized that you guys have All the Feels, which we'll get to talk about. And then I have my podcast, Polycurious, and we were like: "Okay, great, let's, let's meet up and do this."

Jeremy: Yeah, a lot of crossover here.

F: Yeah. Yeah. So, I guess that's, the highlight from my Feeld experience.

J: Hey, if this is the best you get out of it, we're honored.

F: Yeah, so why don't we just start maybe by talking a little bit about what you guys do for work and maybe how you got there.

J: So, we launched All the Feels two years ago. It's a sex positivity platform. We're also trained sex coaches. And the entire point is to, one, normalize the conversation about sex and get people to be more comfortable talking about these things and realize how common, certain sex acts and kinks are, that they're almost universal. And just get rid of the shame and embarrassment that people have about talking about this subject. And then also to help people with practical skills to have a better love life, whether that's, you know, sex techniques or, how to talk to your partner about, you know, trying a new kink or opening up your relationship, dating non- monogamously, whatever it is for people to be able to, you know, experience a better sex life and, you know, better relationship satisfaction and dating life and all of that.

N: And I think the real thing is like, we, the more we explored sexually together, and then as we started exploring, you know, non- monogamously, we just learned so much about ourselves through the process, as well as how, like, our relationship could be strengthened as we, you know, learned to communicate through all of that. So I think we really wanted to take our own learnings and help other people, navigate non-monogamy as well. Then also adding in, you know, the sex coaching aspect, which is, okay, we can help people navigate non-monogamy, but also learn to enjoy their bodies and have good sex and, and lean through.

J: Vulnerability by drawing on our past experiences and our own personal growth and also like as a couple and all the things that we've explored to help guide people who are just taking those steps like we did back in the day.

N: Yeah. Because it can be a real journey and we've learned a lot. So we want to share that.

F: Yeah, yeah, we'll definitely get into that. And how long have you guys been together for?

J: 4 and a half years.

F: Nice. Yeah, that's kind of exactly how long I've been with my partner as well. Yeah, it feels like. Thank you. It's my longest relationship. It does feel like same. It does feel like, wow, like we passed four years. It feels like a milestone. I feel very accomplished, to be honest.

N: Like, well, good for, for all of us.

J: Go ask.

F: Yeah, yeah. Why don't you guys share a little bit maybe about your previous relationships and like, how different they were maybe from your current relationship.

N: Oh, wow, that's a question.

J: And from each other too.

N: Yeah.Yeah. So essentially I had, I was actually engaged before we met. I'd been with my ex for five years. We'd been engaged for two years. And then a month before our wedding date, he just woke me up one day and broke up with me. And so it was this really big, traumatic breakup. But that was very much a monogamous relationship. I think I was about to go down the path of you know, I'm going to get married and have kids and just live the life that, you know, I had grown up in. All of that I had known. And before him, I really dated my university boyfriend. Then I was with my ex, who I was going to engage to be married with. So I had only really had a couple of long term relationships and I hadn't really explored sexually at all. I just thought I wasn't a very sexual person, I guess. And then once my ex kind of broke up with me before the wedding, it was this whole breaking down of myself and sort of saying, you know, do I want to get married? Do I actually want kids? Do I. You know, I had never questioned what type of relationship I wanted. So that's really. Once I was single, that's when I started to explore myself sexually and sort of dating casually. So, you know, a year after that breakup, and funnily enough, Jeremy had a breakup right at that same point. It was like a year before we had met. Once I started dating Jeremy, I'd already started to explore, you know, casual sex and, and that sort of thing for the first time. And then when we met, he just opened my eyes to so much sexually that I was like. Like, I had been spanked once in my life before I met Jeremy. It was right before, and it was right before I met him, like someone casually that I had been hooking up with.

F: How did you react when that happened? Did you love it or were you. I loved it. Okay.

N: I loved it. And I remember, yeah, I loved it. And I was like: "Oh, I really enjoy, like, leaning into this stuff." And I remember early on of Jeremy and I dating and hooking up. First of all, it was just like the best sex I'd ever had. And I was like: "Wow, sex can be this exciting and amazing and like, empowering." It was really eye opening that it could be so fun. But also early on he said to me, like: "Try calling me daddy." And I was like, like most things initially, like: "No, I could never. I could never call you daddy. Like, no, that's not me. I'm not like that." And soon after that, I think he spanked me and I started calling him daddy. And I was like: "Oh, my gosh, I love it."

J: I had already spanked you. Yeah,

N: Yeah.

J: We had done a lot before that point, but I was like, the dynamic is mirroring that. Like, you might want to try out this nickname. That nickname.

N: Yeah, yeah.

F: Jeremy. How do you learn that?

J: So, I have a very different story from her. I've always been a very sexual person. My first sexual memory is from when I was like three years old watching Sesame Street and I saw two cartoons kiss. And I remember getting a hard on and being like: "Fuck, yeah, that's so hot." Like, I don't know what words I used in my head, but I was just like: "Yeah, you know, ooh, yucky." No, it was more than that. I was just like: "That looks good. I want that." You know what I mean? And I, like, I had always had. I never went through a girls or gross phase. I had girlfriends in like preschool and kindergarten and all the way up and like. And then I think as a teenager, when you start studying sex ed and you're going through puberty and it's like an awkward phase, I realized that everyone else was like, embarrassed about sex sex. So I like, kind of adopted that to fit in and sort of like suppressed the fact that I was like, always into girls, like, had no problems with my own body and was like, very, you know, I guess sexual and like, forward about that. And so then in my teenage years, I was also a huge dork. So, like, didn't. Didn't make a lot of progress with women up to that point. And then like later on 17 or 18, I started to like break out of my shell again and I guess just sort of embrace that and explore a little bit. And then like moving forward in my, in my 20s, moving to New York, like just living in this city just made me a lot tougher and bolder.

And I started just sort of becoming a pickup artist. And not through like reading the game or doing negging or any like shitty misogynistic stuff like that. I was totally self taught. I just gained the self confidence and social skills to just talk to any woman. And so I just started like picking women up in the street or at clubs or bars or wherever it was and slowly rolled that into me being very comfortable with like casual sex and then like exploring kinks with women. But I had always either been in like long term monogamous relationships or like furiously single and fucking every woman in New York. And so I never really, I never really combined the two. And any previous girlfriend that I had that you know, we would talk about maybe like having a threesome or whatever, they would always entertain the conversation. And then as soon as it became any sort of reality, if we started talking to anyone, they would freak out. And so I had never had one until when I became single right before Natasha. And that's like, I had a really bad breakup and then maybe like a week or two later, the first time I hooked up with anybody, it was a threesome. And I was like, I'm back baby, better than ever.

F: You know, this is a sign.

J: Yeah, exactly, exactly. But then, you know, I just, whatever, had a year of being single, met her and then, you know, she gives me a lot of credit for like guiding us into this because I had so much more experience sexually, like being very comfortable like with kinks, even in like casual hookups. But, it came after two months of us dating. Once we became exclusive. She just said to me one night: "Hey, it's kind of a shame that like we're exclusive now because I've kind of always wanted to try being with girls and have threesomes."

N: And I'd also actually said that at the beginning of my last relationship. So I think now looking back, I had always had an intrigue with being with women and threesomes, but I was just so insecure, you know, back in the day and I think with my ex, you know, same thing, right? We started dating, like: "Oh, should we Have a threesome." But then, you know, quit very quickly. We got monogamous, and it never kind of came up again. So this was the first time bringing it up to Jeremy, where I was like, you know, it's a shame again, that now I'm entering a relationship when I've always wanted to be with a woman and have a threesome. And he was like: "Okay, interesting. You said that you want to be with, with women and have a threesome." He's like: "I heard you say, I want to be with women first, Not, I just want to have a threesome."

J: So I heard it as two distinct thoughts.

N: Yeah. Yeah.

J: That you want to try being with women. And so I was like: "Look, if you're bisexual and you've never, I mean, you might be bi. That's what you're saying to me. But you don't know that. And that's an identity thing. You owe it to yourself to find that out. So, like, that has nothing to do with me. You need to try being with girls, and then if you like it, we can talk about threesomes or whatever." And so then it took a few months of us talking about, like, how do we want to explore and how does that work? And after, like, a few months of talking about, like, how we would approach it, she found a girl on Feeld that she thought was cute, and they had a date, and they hooked up. And I came over to her place afterwards, and I was just like: "How was it?" She said: "Oh, my God, it was amazing. And she was so hot, and it came so hard. I'm definitely bi. Oh, my God." Thank you for being.

N: Everything clicked. I was like: "Oh, wow. Yeah, I love being with women. This feels so natural. This feels right." And then I look back on my life, and I was like: "I've always been into women, but, like, I had just suppressed it" because, yeah, I had grown up in a very conservative environment, and I just never thought being with women was, like, an option for me, honestly. So, yeah, I came home after that first experience, and that was so selfless of Jeremy to say: "Look, you need to go experience this, you know, with a woman without me." And, yeah, I came home, like, on cloud nine, had the best time ever. Was like: "I'm definitely, definitely bisexual." Jeremy had actually given me a lesson on how to, like, eat pussy before I went, because I was so nervous.

I was like, you know, I know my own. But, like, what feels good? So he's like: "Okay, so you do this with your tongue. And he was like, giving me a demo on me before I left. So I went feeling very confident." And she said that Jeremy's a great teacher, obviously passed on the skills well. But it was, it was just, it was super exciting to experience that. But then when I came home from that date and he's like: "Okay, well what am I going to do when you're. If you want to go out on dates with women again, what am I going to do when you do that?" And I freaked out. And I was like: "No." the thought of him being with other women was too terrifying to me. So I was like, I was willing to not be with women because I was scared, you know, of him being with other women.

J: So that she was like: "Oh, we can just concentrate on threesomes." And I was just like: "Okay, you know, I'm m not gonna press it. I'm very happy to start having threesomes with you." So, you know, and then it took us a few months of again, like getting used to that idea and finding someone that we were both comfortable with, had a threesome. And then afterwards we had like a debrief session where she was like: "Hey, that didn't go exactly how I wanted it to. Like, I didn't like that and I didn't like this." And it was like the reality of one, what your fantasy is versus then actually doing it and also the fact that there's another person involved and they have their own wants and needs and she thought it was hot beforehand. She's like: "Oh, it'd be really hot if we like double teamed her." And so it was like the focus was on the other girl the whole time. And she was like, you and her didn't pay much attention to me. And I was like, okay, well that was the game plan, is that we were going to double team her.

So now you realize that it has to be a much more like even fluid like thing all around. And that just sort of started a tradition of you know, any other threesome that we had or then we tried being with couples and group parties and everything. We always had a debrief session afterwards. Talk about how did that go? Was there anything you didn't like? And what else, what should I do in that situation from now on that would make you feel better or, just sort of like coming up with new rules and game plans for how we should approach this in the future and do better so we don't trigger each other either with jealousy or whatever. And it was one of the best conversations we've ever had in our relationship. Because it also got down to eventually we had one and it just started like a three hour long conversation about every possible trigger that we could ever have in any scenario. And then what the other person should do to make you feel better and what you should do to make yourself feel better. And like how we navigate all this. And it's super interesting because that was such a thorough conversation and that those lessons applied for like a year and a half without us having to do anything different. And then new situations started arising that we didn't foresee and new rules had to be made and new accommodations had to be made.

N: And I also think as my confidence increased and my jealousy decreased, I think I got a bit more relaxed on the rules that I had set. You know, that would make me feel more comfortable. And I think over time you just build more trust and more communication with each other. And I think that led me to get more and more comfortable and have less of these rules. And I think it's because, yeah, you have to learn to have flexibility and fluidity because, yeah, like Jeremy was saying, every new party, some, some new trigger would come up for me or, you know, how we handled being in separate rooms made me more nervous. Things like that. So it just, yeah, I think it's been such a helpful practice, but it's also like the rules change as, as my confidence has changed. I really think that's been a big part of it.

F: Yeah. I have so much to say. Oh my God. But, first of all, with your first threesome experience and you realizing that they didn't pay enough attention to you, I feel like if there's like one tip for threesomes is like, I mean, obviously it depends on what everyone's into, but like, it really helpful when you kind of like focus on one person at the time and like, everyone gets their own time because then no one feels left out. No one feels like: "Oh, why did she get pleasure? Or he can get pleasure and not me." Right. So for anyone out there, just a tip. But, I'm also like, curious because I feel like whenever a woman who's like mostly heterosexual up to that point thinks of being with a woman, it immediately goes into, it's gonna be a threesome with him, even though that's not really what they might actually want. So I think it's great that like, Jeremy, you were able to be like: "Okay, maybe go and do that first and then maybe we can have the threesome." But why did you think of that. Why didn't you also, like, jump into the: "Oh, okay, great. An opportunity to have threesomes."

J: Two reasons. One, I had heard, like, and just kind of knew that threesomes could be problematic in a relationship if you don't approach it in the right way. And my ex had actually tried to give me a threesome for my birthday one year. And I was like: "That's not the. That's not a good approach. You just want to, like, grab a random tonight. Like, are you even into that? Like, you're saying that you're doing it for me." That's not a good approach. Like, I want. I don't want this to cause a problem in our relationship and you to do it for me. I want you to want to do it, and if you don't, then we shouldn't do it. And so, you know, I didn't want to be like, one, maybe she's not into girls. Maybe she would get super jealous about me in a threesome. So I was like, but the bigger thing is really more like, you might be bisexual and you don't know that. That has nothing to do with me. So it was more just like: "Hey, listen, you need to figure this out for yourself. And then if that is something you're into, then we can go into this in a healthy way where we talk about everything we want and what our expectations are and whatever else." Yeah, so it was kind of just that it wasn't about me. And. But the funny thing is, when I said this to her, when I was like: "You owe it to yourself to explore that." I actually had very distinct, like, a voice in my head screaming at me being like: "What are you doing? You're telling her to fuck other people." And the other side of my brain was like,: "Shut up. This is going to be good for us."

F: I mean, didn't you think. Because it does sound. I mean, I'm sure that you came from an authentic place, but it does sound like you already also had an interest in non- monogamy and you. And you thought like: "Oh, okay, this is like the safest entry to it." I feel like a lot of couples do that. Like, they're like: "Okay, you know, maybe. Maybe the guy wants to be open." Although I feel like it's a myth that the guy is the one who most likely wants to be open. I think it does. It's not a gender thing, but let's say, like, the guy wants to be open. And then he's like: "Okay, like, you go and do your thing. Kind of like to show the person who might be a little bit more reluctant" like; "It's okay, you can go out and have fun. And that doesn't mean that you don't love me anymore."

So then when they experience that, they also know: "Okay, like, that person can go out and come back. And that doesn't mean that they don't like, love me anymore or whatever." But sounds like you already had some interest in non-monogamy. Where did that interest come from if you only had had monogamous relationships till. Till that point?

J: I had always felt that way. I had a conversation with my mom somewhere around when I was 30, which is a long time ago because I'm secretly old. But, and I. The word polyamory had not entered the lexicon yet. I mean, literally, I'm sure people who were polyamorous knew of that term, but at the time that had not gotten out into pop culture for years. And, so I was trying to explain to her in between relationships that, like, I wasn't sure if monogamy was for me. And she was like: "Well, what are you, a polygamist?" I was like: "Uh, well, we're Jewish, not Muslim, so I don't believe in like multiple marriages or whatever. Like, that's.

And I don't know that I believe in marriage, period. Like, I don't know. Like, I'm telling you that, like, I'm not sure that one woman would be enough for me. And I'm also kind of a lot to handle for anyone else. So, like, I don't know what that means and I don't know what word there is for that. I just kind of have this feeling that, like, I'm not sure I would ever be happy in monogamy" and just left it at that. But then still, because there wasn't this larger cultural movement of more people starting to explore open dynamics or allow for, you know, fluid dating, I kind of had to choose of like: "Okay, well, I really like this person. And so I either have to be monogamous or single." And, but I always knew that I wasn't that way. And I always knew that I wanted threesomes and I wanted to explore different things sexually and group sex parties and, but I just never dated anybody that was open to it. And so her saying that was like a eureka moment of like: "Okay, like, maybe she could go down this path." But it's also like, because I had been through experiences of people saying that they were interested in it, but then whenever it became like a reality of us discussing it, they would freak out that I was like, I can't push this. So, you know, one, I wanted her to figure out if she was bi. But then two, after she was like: "Oh, yeah, I'm definitely bi. That was amazing. I want to do that again." And I was like: "Well, what am I doing while you're sleeping? Sleeping with girls?" She like, freaked out. She's like, no, like, we could just have threesomes. But I didn't push it because I was like, I want to do this in a way that's healthy for our relationship, that brings us closer together and not like causes fights. So, like, she's only comfortable exploring together for now. I'll leave it at that until whenever, you know.

F: Yeah. I mean, it's so important just to go slow. I mean, I like, I say that having come from a place where my situation is completely different, my partner is actually monogamous. But the way we approach the relationship was very much like: "Okay, you want to be non-monogamous, I want to be monogamous. Like, where can we meet in the middle and how can we go in like incremental steps from there?" So it was like the first thing that I was allowed to do was like: "Okay, you can go to play parties, but only oncea month and that's it." And then after a while doing that.

J: So pretty generous. Yeah.

F: Yeah, honestly.

J: "Okay, you can go to a sex party once. Like you can go to sex party every month." That's still, that's very open minded for someone.

F: You know what it is. But that's not what I wanted. Like, I didn't want to go to play parties. Like, I wanted to go on a date with someone that I knew I had a sexual connection. Like, I already, like, before meeting my partner, I had friends with benefits. I just wanted to continue those relationships. Like I found myself going to play parties kind of like: "Okay, this is my one and only chance." And that's like not a good attitude to go to a play party with. So I had a talk with him after a little bit and I was like: "Listen babe, I don't care for these parties. Can I just like meet my friend?" Then he was like: "Okay, but you know, like, only with people who are partnered or like with people who, you know, you, you have an already established relationship with." So it wasn't like threatening to him that I would like leave him because I was already like, there was always.

N: Already an understanding of these types of connections and they would respect.

F: Yeah, Like, I already had not chosen them as my primary. So there was. So we went at it that way, and then, it was only, like, after, I think, two years of relationship that, like. Two. Two years, two years and a half that I could actually, like, go on a date and, like, have sex. But then it was like, okay, don't stay over. Like, now. Now is.

J: We have that rule.

F: Yeah. Like. Yeah. And, you know, like, now I barely have any rules. Like, now I can basically do whatever I want. But it took us, like, we've been together for four years, and sometimes when people start, they're just, like, from one day to the other. You know, now they're open, and now they can do whatever. And it's just, like, people need to understand that it does take time, but also that it does get better. Like, it does get a lot easier.

J: Yeah, baby steps and ground rules. Like, test the water, walk before you crawl or whatever. Crawl before you walk, before you run.

N: Yeah. Because that also gives you space to check in with yourself. Like, how am I feeling having, you know, taken this baby step? And then how are we feeling as a couple and our experiences similar. So I think taking it slow just allows you to really, like, reflect on what your boundaries are and then be more intentional about how you move forward. And for me, I think getting comfortable at each, you know, threesomes and then couples and then groups. Like, you know, we did that all pretty gradually, and I think it just allowed me to kind of, like, acclimatize to my feelings and what my needs are in those situations as well.

F: Yeah. And it's also just to get used to it. Right. Like, I don't know, it takes a little while to get out of the monogamous mindset of, like, if he or she is with someone else, that means that I'm lacking. Right. Like, so it just literally takes, like, practice to, like, go through that experience to be like: "Oh, it's fine." It's. You know, and it might not be fine the first few times or the first few dates or whatever, but you get to it. You know, it's a muscle that you. That you have to practice.

J: Yeah, that. And, like, one thing that you said before, like, communication. Like, some people are like: "Okay, we want to try an open relationship" and that's the level of detail that they get into it, and then there are no ground rules, and they just think they can do whatever. And one person's idea of an open relationship and, like, how that is handled and how that works. Like you said, you know, no sleepovers or whatever. There are different levels of intimacy and different levels of different things that people are comfortable with or not. You know, because it could be like: "Oh, I thought we were not-monogamous, but we're just going to, like, date other people. And you went to a whole sex party without me." You know what I mean? It's like the rules are different for everybody. And, you know, one of the things that makes us work is, like, we call it over communication. The same thing with the debriefs. After every threesome or every group party or whatever, we talk about, how was that for you? Was there anything you liked or didn't like? Whatever. You know, we check in with each other constantly about, like, how. How you feel about where we're at in our relationship or how you feel about. The rules are how we're doing it. And we also change the rules as we go all the time. So, like, we just decided we're going to put a pause on, open dating. Like, we're still going to play together and throw parties and all of that. But, and that's not. That's probably like, the third, fourth time that we've taken a pause on dating people separately just based on whatever else is going on in our relationship. Like: "Hey, let's concentrate on us a little bit more and make sure that we're good and not spend so much energy and time with other people." And then, you know, but we can still have threesomes and play together. You know, it's not like we're missing out on anything.

F: Yeah. Do you mind me asking why you're taking the pause?

N: Yeah, I think, you know, going back to when we first started exploring, I struggle with, like, unhealthy attachment styles and abandonment issues. And I think my, my opinion from the beginning was I always. Well, I developed a kink for watching him with other women, and I. So for me, like, threesomes in groups have always been way more fulfilling, where I get to be with the person I love and I get to see. I get to experience compersion, which is feeling happy for him that he's having fun with other women. And I get to watch, and I'm loving watching, so.

J: And you get to be with another.

N: And I get to be with another women. I love being with both, like, you know, more masculine and feminine. Feminine energy at the same time. I love seeing groups of naked human bodies just enjoying one another. I just think it's the most beautiful thing. And so I've always. I think enjoyed group experiences a lot more. And I get really tired really easily. And I think I was finding it kind of exhausting going on solo dates with women as well. So I'd always put preferred kind of group circumstances. But we, had basically, you know, when I started being with women, when we first started dating, we wanted to open that up. Right. And experience. He always knew that he wanted to date other women separately. So we explored all of that. And I had some great experiences going on these solo dates. But I think deep down I was really doing that because I felt like he needed it more than I needed it. And I.

J: Which was genuine at the time. Yeah, like, I did need that because I had never done that and I always felt that that's how I wanted to do it. And in the end it was like we just kind of felt like after two and a half years of doing that, that we were just kind of like forcing it. We had never revisited, like: "Should we still be open?" We took pauses, like when we moved in together or we went away for the winter. Like, not as easy to date non-monogamously outside New York City.

F: Where did you guys go?

J: Colorado. It's not a huge community there. It was like we would take pauses based on circumstances. And then this time it was like: "Do we need that right now?" Like, not really. Like, I'm in a good place about it. Like, you know, you think we should spend more time like either together or like threesomes or groups, like, cool, let's concentrate on that instead.

N: But I also, I think this is not to say that in the future we're not going to date other people separately again. Right. I think it's just having an open mindset and understanding that this is where we're at right now. Maybe in the future I'll feel more of that need to go and find my, you know, time with women separate of him, which is just being more feminine. And you know, I just think it's again, being open minded and that this is where we're at right now, but it could also change in the future, just as it has in the past.

F: Yeah, and that's totally normal. I mean, it just, it's a lot of energy and sometimes you want to divert that, that energy elsewhere. But, yeah, Natasha, tell us how you develop this kink of like seeing your partner fuck other women. Like how, how can people develop that too?

N: Yeah. So I think first of all, as, you know, as women, I think we're just inherently competitive and I think that like you said earlier, there's a lot of unlearning to do with, you know, monogamy and as women having to be small and submissive to our male partner and dependent on him as the kind of what will be the patriarch of our family. I think, all of this sort of societal, you know, the fact that we live in a patriarchal world culture, it causes women to be competitive. So I think I was always very, competitive with other women, to be honest. And I used to get very, very jealous very easily. But over time I think I realized that the more confidence and, you know, self love I put into myself, the less threatened I am by other women and the more I realize actually when I'm feeling very intimidated or threatened by someone, I actually am attracted to that person and that intimidation is actually attraction. But there was one book in particular that really helped me harness, like, why I was getting jealous and insecure. And it's called "Existential Kink", it's by Carolyn Elliott. And it, it really kind of talks. It forces you to look at, you know, what our subconscious mind might be manifesting in our conscious mind and like how we are as humans masochists and we are often living out our biggest fears like these self fulfilling prophecies. And so I was really, I read this book and I was like, you know, sitting with my insecurity and my jealousy and it just asks you to kind of reestablish or go through those narratives, but in a more positive light and understand what your body experiences as you think through your biggest fears. And you take your biggest fears, you know, what happens if that were to happen? Or he, that girl's very attractive, what if he falls in love with her? Or blah, blah, blah, you take, you can take that narrative to the end goal and usually what I would find is: "Oh my, like pussy's tingling." When I think about him with other women, when I'm going through my worst case scenario and that's when something just clicked and I was like: "Oh, my fear of him being with other women is actually making my body feel kind of good. Like when I actually stop and picture it, I'm getting really, really turned on." And then we had a threesome soon after that and I went and had a water break and I came back and instead of that, potentially being a point where I'm normally jealous, like: "Oh, I'm left out because I'm having a break and they're still going at it in the bedroom," I walked in and I felt this, I saw him sleeping with another woman. And I had came into this room as an observer, and I was like: "Oh, my God, that's so hot." Like, it just felt like that was the hottest thing I'd ever seen was him being with a woman.

J: And the funny thing is I saw it on her face. So she goes to get water, and I'm fucking this girl from behind off the side of the bed. And she walks back into the room. And I instinctively turn to, like, make sure she's good, especially because she just left the room. I don't know if, like, she's not feeling great about this scenario or whatever. So I'm. I'm looking at her to like, check in while I'm with this other girl and make sure she's okay. And not only is she okay, I, like, saw the lust on her face of like, she walks in the room and she was like: "Oh, that's fucking hot." And I looked at her, I was like: "Oh, my God. Not only is she, like, not jealous, this is the most fun she's had all night." Not even me fucking her while the other girl is like, rubbing her pussy or whatever the fuck. It was like her just standing and watching me pound this curl from behind is the most fun she's had all night. And so afterwards, same thing, like, debriefing, we talked about it and I was like: "Yo, what was that?" And she's like: "Oh, my God, that was so hot. I'm super into watching you with other girls." And what? And then it like, spiraled to like, after she had that full realization that entire winter, like when we would fuck, she would be like, yeah. So, when I came, it was. Cause I was thinking about you fucking this girl or thinking about you fucking. It like turned to a full blown fetish of like, her imagining me fuck other girls while I'm fucking her. And that's what would make her come. And I was like: "Oh, my God."

N: Yeah, I didn't. I could not imagine my fear would ever have ended up in that.

J: Going from like, worried about jealousy issues to like: "Oh, she loves watching me fuck other girls." Like, my life sucks. Like, this is awful.

N: But I think it was also a big lesson for me, which is if I'm feeling fearful of something or insecure about something, that's usually now a sign that I want to lean into it, you know, get out of my comfort zone, lean into my fear. Because, you know, like, the first time I was fearful of a group experience, experience, you know, I lent into that fear and I went anyway, and I had the best time. It was so empowering. I love seeing everyone together and like, everyone's just so, you know, sex positive and open minded and, you know, supportive of one another. So I now kind of have this rule with myself, which is if I feel jealousy or some kind of fear come up, I just have to like, sit with it and be like: "Am I actually scared? Or is it actually a fantasy and a turn on that's manifesting as fear?" Because my sub, like my conscious mind is like judging me for having these kind of like, you know, inherently sexual desires, but I'm shaving myself over them, if that makes sense. So now if I get insecure, I sit with, I sit with that insecurity. I'm like: "Oh, actually that means I'm really turned on."

F: Yeah, you know, yeah, I'll definitely link that book so people can, can read it. But I'm curious, threesome number. What was when you finally were able to make this switch? Like how many threesomes? And why did you even continue? Right, like, after having a few experiences, was it because, like, you knew that that's what you had to do, please him or like to be with other women on your own? Or why did you, like, push through when you were like, having the insecurities?

N: When I had the insecurities, it was. When was it when we read that book. I can't think of how many threesomes we had, but maybe a handful in those five to ten threesomes. Like, I think in the moment I was mostly super turned on. But then afterwards I think I would start to feel like, I don't know, maybe just some old shame about being sexual and exploring this. And my insecurities would kind of recomb up after the experience. So it was almost like I would get excited beforehand but then get suddenly really nervous. Then I would have a really good time during the threesome and then afterwards I would start to get insecure again. So it was very much like back and forth. And then when I read that book after like five or 10 experiences, that's when I was like: "Oh, I didn't have that back and forth anymore." I was just like: "This is hot and this is what I enjoy." And I didn't start to have those downward insecure kind of spirals, like right before or after. It is a way of rewriting that narrative into something possible. But it's almost like you have to really deeply look at yourself and understand, you know, where those biggest fears come.

J: From before you, why you're afraid of it.

N: Right.

J: It turns out, for her, a lot of why she was afraid of it is because she wanted it so bad, but had shame or guilt about seeking these things out, especially women, because she, even though she had, like, had attraction to girls at a young age, but, like, buried that feeling, because that's not right. Like, I must just think they're cute or want to dress like them or what, you know? But, yeah, the things that you want the most scare you, and that's where the fear comes from.

F: Yeah.

J: It's not because you're actually afraid of it or you don't like it. You want it so bad that scares you and that society says these things are bad, so you're not supposed to want them.

F: Yeah. And how do you go from that shame to, you know, having the all the fuels platform? And I don't know if, like, your family or, everyone knows about it. Yeah. How did you go from that, from being like: "Oh, I feel shame around having a threesome, to now I'm gonna be a public image of healthy sexuality and all of that.

N: So from my perspective. Yeah. Following on from that, I think, you know, getting over a lot of my, like shame and starting to learn that I was very much a sexual person. It was really empowering for me this whole journey, because I had been, I was sexually abused at a very young age. And I think, you know, I had grown up very much removed from my body and not really kind of enjoying sex. And so I think as I learned to overcome my shame and I found sex to be very empowering, taking control of my sensuality and learning to love my body, I realized that I was really starting to, like, reclaim my body, you know, from trauma, essentially learning to, like, enjoy my body again, having been so, disassociated from it. And so I had really started to think about how I wanted to help other women like me who have always been, insecure or who have battled with body dysmorphia or women. Yeah. Who have gone through sexual abuse and just have been disconnected from their body. You know, I was like, I have learned so much about myself, and I've healed myself almost through practicing sex safely and exploring my boundaries and my kinks as a way to claim back my power and my. my body, and so I wanted to really help other women do the same and learn to not feel shameful about being sexual creatures, and start to heal those wounds. So I was already thinking of how I wanted to help women in that lens. And then at the same time Jeremy was.

J: Yeah. So I started this initially, as a book project, which I haven't finished because we turned this into like a multimedia.

F: Still writing the book.

N: Yeah.

J: I should pick it up again. So from my perspective it was, it was similar but different where, I wanted to help men in their relationship with themselves and women. So obviously, like my, background as like a self made pickup artist, but also someone who developed a ton of sexual skill. And this has always been one of my biggest passions. It's always been my greatest skill. And I was very torn about the fact that in our capitalist society, but one that is filled with all sorts of like, guilt and shame and embarrassment about the subject that everyone else was allowed to capitalize on their skills and passions. And I wasn't without having a massive, like, social backlash against talking about this thing and doing these things publicly. And, I had a conversation with my therapist about this and how frustrating that was, and he's like, well, you have choices to make. Like, one, there are existing options that you could do something about sex professionally. You might not like those options. Maybe you have to create another option for yourself or go down one of those avenues. But on the other side, like, you do have a choice to make that, like, you might lose friends and family over this, but that's a choice that you have to make because you're very clearly torn about this. And eventually for me it was like, going back to what I said about that. I had always been a sexual person and very comfortable with that, but through puberty and watching other kids giggle and be embarrassed about sex during sex ed that I, like, buried it. And I was like, I'm tired of us not being able to talk about this thing that's so important to our identities, so important to our sense of happiness, so important to our relationships that, you know, the sexual revolution happened in the 60s and then everyone just sort of like ignored it other than like the LGBTQ community, pushing forward, like what was possible in the interim, but, like, no one else was talking about this. It was still considered taboo and embarrassing, and no one would talk about this publicly. And I'm like, I'm done not being able to talk about this thing that's so important to all of us. And so I started writing this book that was, about men's relationships with themselves and getting rid of toxic masculinity and fragile male ego, and then men's relationship with women and, understanding women better and learning how to pick up women and date women and please them sexually. And so, you know, as I was like getting deep into this book project, she started saying, like, I really want to help women go on this journey that I've been on. And I was like, you know what? Like, there's, there's almost no couples in this space. There are, you know, sex coaches or, you know, people in a variety of different aspects of this, you know, growing industry. But not a lot of couples doing this together. And so it would be so much more powerful instead of me having a monologue about men and women and you, like, just trying to help women if we, like, helped people together. And you can, you know, even if we're talking about men's issues, you can talk about it from the other side, from the female perspective and vice versa. And so, you know, we took a while and planned out, like, what it would look like and how we would do it. And we launched about two years ago, spent a year, like, just finding our voice and like, you know, how it all worked, and then really kicked it into gear about a year ago. And, very luckily, Natasha quit her job at Twitter like, two months ago. Perfect, timing right before shit hit the fan. Yeah, and so we've been doing it full time for.

N: Right, because.

F: Just for context, because by the time this airs, like, there were a bunch of layoffs, so.

J: Yeah, so, yeah, I mean, by the time this airs, Twitter might not exist. So it's been crazy.

N: So we, yeah, so we essentially launched the business nearly two years ago, but it was very much just like a, side hobby for us. Right. Like, we both kind of had day jobs, but, you know, we want to start, you know, you know, basically helping other people have better sex lives and do the self growth and reflect on how they can be a better person and more sex positive and all of that. So it was very much aside. And yeah, I've worked in tech for 11 years now, and I quit my job at Twitter at the end of August to do the business full time because, we make educational porn videos and the videos were starting to sell more and more and we were starting to kind of join more podcasts like this one and, you know, start to get our message out more. And I was like, okay, we're really starting to finally make some traction in this pattern, in this business that we're really passionate about.

I'm now at the place where I feel like I can quit my day job and position you this full time.

F: Okay, guys. Thank you so much for tuning in. I love Natasha and Jeremy. I think they're so great in the second part of our conversation, meaning next episode, which is coming out next week. They give us so many tips to have successful threesomes and overall great communication during sex. If you want to hear more from them. If you want to hear more from me, don't forget to join us for that Instagram Live Sunday, May 7th. And all you have to do is go to our Instagram Polycurious podcast, where I will be posting all of the details. Okay, guys, thank you so much for tuning in and I'll catch you all on the next episode.