Jeremy: This is the biggest thing with dating in general. Men tell women what they think they want to hear, not what's actually truthful to them. So, men, if you are listening to this, the best thing you can ever do for your dating life is to tell women exactly where you're at in your life, what you want and why. And you will be shocked at how understanding they are about that.

Fernanda: Hi, everyone, this is Polycurious and I am Fer your host. And today I bring you the second part of my conversation with Natasha and Jeremy from All the Feels. So if you haven't listened to the first part, make sure to go back and listen to that one first. Natasha and Jeremy are sex coaches and educators.

They have an amazing Instagram page where they share tons of resources. They also make educational porn and they do regular porn as well. And today they give amazing tips around communication. Jeremy talks about ways that are sexy and respectful to approach women. And they both tell us how to have a threesome that is fun and sexy and where everyone feels safe. We also talk about what one can do if you have a sexual desire or preference that your partner doesn't like. We talk about play parties, we talk about porn, we talk about sex ed. And honestly, so many interesting topics I am sure you will enjoy. Before we start, I just wanted to quickly remind you that we are doing an Instagram live this Sunday, May 7th. So if you have questions for Jeremy and Natasha or for me, you can go and follow me at Polycurious podcast. Instagram is also the place where you can reach out to me if you are interested in my relationship coaching services or just if you want to say hi, which I always, always love to hear from listeners.

Here's the second part of my conversation with Natasha and Jeremy from All the Feels.

F: I'm interested in hearing about your perspective Jeremy, because you mentioned, like, stepping away from toxic masculinity but also being kind of like a pickup artist and having all these sexual skills. And I feel like, I feel like a lot of guys struggle with that. You know, they're either sexual and want to put themselves out there, but they don't want to portray themselves as that dude that's like a player. And it's honestly, it's really hard to find a man who, like, knows how to do non-monogamy, right? I feel like women are socialized to communicate more.

And I don't know if you have any tips for men out there who might be like, okay, you know, either men who are like partner or men who are single but that have these desires and want to act on them and want to be with more than one woman, but, you know, they want to do it. Or men, but, like, they want to do it in a way that's, like, ethical and without being like that guy.

J: Yeah, well, there's a, there's a few things. One, I'm not a player because this is not a game. You know what I mean? So, like, the guys not wanting to be that guy, I'd also say, like, don't hit on women. Just talk to them. They're just people. You know what I mean? Have a conversation. Demonstrate, like, one of the reasons that I even started dating Natasha. She wasn't trying to have a relationship and neither was I. But she had given her number out to a few different guys that night when we met.

F: Where did you guys meet?

J: In the Hamptons? Natasha: Yeah, we were at a bar out in Montauk. And it was like one in the morning...

J: Let's name it. We were at Surf Lodge. Shout out to J Max. Thanks, Jama. But, yeah. And I had seen her when I walked in, I was like: "Oh, my God, the girl's so fucking hot." Like, she was talking. Her and her friends were talking to a bunch of dudes. And I was like: "I don't care if that's her boyfriend. I'm going to talk to that girl tonight." And it's like, if that was her boyfriend, I'm like, cool, it's nice to meet you. Have a good night. But, like, I started talking to her and, you know, my whole thing was just. I could tell that everyone else that was hitting on her was being a complete jackass, which it turns out is, like, even more true than I ever could have imagined. Like, none of them had any fucking game.

N: And basically three. Three men that night gave me the same chat up line, which is the chat up line I get in most places because I have a British accent. They all said, you sound like you're from London, which is a line from Forgetting Sarah Marshall or a movie. And I, so basically everyone who had basically tried to hit on me had the same pickup lines, easy pickup lines. And then Jeremy's like: "Hey, how are you?" Were you like. It was just immediately a very authentic.

F: Yeah. How did you. How did you approach her?

J: Yeah, uh, she actually came up to me. I ordered this big punch, that giant copper flamingo that you see up there.

F: Oh, my God. You have a memory from that night. That's amazing.

J: But so, I just hear behind me, like: "Oh, my God. What the fuck is that?" And I turn around, I was like: "Oh, it's that girl. Don't fuck this up." And so she actually tried to pawn me off onto her friend.

N: Like, no offense to Jeremy, but, like, I did just see a shiny gold thing. And I was like: "What is that?" Like, I love sparkles. I'm like a magpie. And then he looks up, at this handsome man, is like: "Oh, can I get you a drink?"

J: She's like: "No, but my friend would like one." I was like: "Cool, okay." Like, here's your drink. And then I turned back to her. I was like: "So, what's your story? Like, where are you from? Who are you? What are you doing? How long have you been in New York, whatever?" And just made a point to demonstrate genuine interest in her. And this isn't just about, how can men pick up women or whatever. This is the actual thing about attraction in general. Or getting someone to like you. The best way to do it is by demonstrating interest in them. I asked her genuine questions and demonstrated that I was actually interested in getting to know her as a person, which is, like, you know, no pickup lines, not hitting on her. She kept trying to be like: "Oh, you should talk to my friend. She's single. "I was like: "No, I. Like, I want to know about you."

F: Yeah.

J: And just maintained a lot of eye contact and just, you know, just very genuine and open and. Yeah. Yeah. In the end, like, we met up the next day, same thing. Like, genuine connection. Like, talked about real shit, and it was like: "Okay, I actually like this girl." And then a couple days later, when we're back in the city, we went on a date, and that was that. And, like, it all snowballed very quickly from there.

F: That's great. I love what you're saying about taking genuine interest in women as people, because I find that a lot of guys have this, like, dichotomy in their head. Like: "Okay, is there someone I fuck or someone that I want for a relationship?" And then I've had experiences dating monogamous guys. Monogamish, I guess, but, like, guys who come from this mentality that, you know, because I'm partnered, the moment they find someone else that might become their primary, they're like: "Okay, well, she was my, the person who I fucked. So then I'm, um, not going to, like, care for her as a person anymore" you know? And it's not like they've been mean or anything, but just, like, in the little things that you realize, like, oh, okay, like, drop off. Yeah. They just friends with benefits.

J: Like:"Oh, we're not actually friends."

F: Exactly, exactly. It was just them benefits, you know, and like, I've also had, luckily, I've also had experiences with, like, you know, it's just transition into a friendship. And those people actually did care about me. Yeah.

J: Which are the best.

F: Yeah, but, but you know, like, it's, it's hard for men to understand. I feel. I, I, I don't feel like they mean to be. Like, I don't even feel like they didn't care for me. They just like, literally do not know how to handle that situation and how to be like: "Hey, listen, it's been lovely to be with you, but, you know, I need to focus on this other relationship. But let's be friends." Or maybe not let's be friends, but then, you know, like, they still are.

J: But just leaving in a good place.

F: Yeah, they still treat me like the same way because it's just like a switch. Like, they just stopped treating the same.

J: I think it's a little bit worse than that. I think it's somewhere in between, like, where you wish it was and like, where you're, you're seeing it. And I think it's because it's not just that, like, guys don't know how to handle it and, like, let people down gently of, like: "Hey, I'm kind of in a monogamous situation. Like, so, like, you're probably going to hear from me less or whatever. But, like, it's been great." Like, you know, I think there's a further layer of that of, like, men are not in touch with their emotions, and they also assume, and this is the biggest thing with dating in general. Men tell women what they think they want to hear, not what's actually truthful to them.

So men, if you are listening to this, the best thing you can ever do for your dating life is to tell women exactly where you're at in your life, what you want and why. And you will be shocked at how understanding they are about that. And they all assume, like, and that's why, like, men lie to women and they're, you know, they think: "Oh, like, we're in a monogamous relationship" and he's actually sleeping with a bunch of people. If you would tell women that you're dating, like, I don't intend to have anything serious right now. I will be dating other people. Some people aren't going to be into that, but most women actually would be, as long as they're in the same place in their lives.

F: It really Is like so hard when a guy is like, you know, this is where I'm standing, where I stand. This is what I want. Even if it's like rejection. Like, like, if they're like: "Listen, like, this is how I feel about you." Like, I just, I'm just like, I just appreciate it so much. And I mean, I think that's something that, you know, everyone should do, like, have that conversation. Like, a lot of people have this question of like: "Oh, should I tell others if I'm like seeing other people or not?" And I don't think that necessarily you have to, but I think that why not? Like, why not being like, I mean, maybe not the first few dates, but like, if you have a, like an ongoing relationship with this person, like having a check in, just being like: "Hey, this is where I stand, you know, this is."

J: Or what do you want out of this?

F: Yeah, what do you want out of this? Like, you know, I want to make sure that, you know that like: "I'm not looking for a monogamous relationship right now, or I am, but I don't see us in that way. But I would love to continue this as like friends with benefits. Is that how you see us?" Like, I think that just saves so much like heartbreak.

N: But it also takes, requires a lot of vulnerability in terms of communicating where you're at and what you want. And I think, you know, we are taught to not be vulnerable. We're taught to be brave and tough and strong. And so I think it's a lot, it's really hard one, if you haven't, as a, maybe as a guy, if you haven't done that internal kind of reflection of what you actually want. But also there's this layer of you know, not being vulnerable because then you might get hurt or rejected. So I think it takes, you know, a lot of vulnerability to communicate where you're at openly and also you know, not waste someone else's time by not hurting their feelings and just saying what.

F: Yeah, these are not easy conversations.

J: Yeah, like, the vulnerability takes not just bravery but also a level of self awareness that I struggle back and forth on. Whether or not some people are capable of having that level of self awareness or even that level of empathy. Because going back to what you said originally, you know, a lot of guys approach dating as fuck boys. And frankly, they view women as a vessel through which they can have sex. And so it's a goal oriented thing of how do I have sex? And it's not about treating someone as a person and understanding that they have feelings and they have. And it's just like, what do I have to do or say to fuck tonight? And not. Yeah, like actually having any empathy towards the other person of like, how is this going to affect them? Whatever. And it's like if you play the long game and you take it slow and you are honest instead of telling people what you think they want to hear, you'll do a hell of a lot better. You're not burning bridges, you're not creating drama in your own life or in theirs. But I do wonder if some people like, lack that empathy. And there, there's a lot of studies that there are more sociopaths walking around us than people realize.

F: Yeah. And this is also why non- monogamy is not for everyone. Because there's people that either don't have that self awareness or don't want to have those conversations. And if you are, you know, in an ideal world, you know, everyone would be able to. But if you're not able to, like, then, you know, you might be better off in a monogamous relationship where you don't have to be vulnerable and be self aware and have all of, I mean, you also have to do that. But it's, it's a little different. It's a little, maybe easier to, you know, be vulnerable with your one primary partner than with someone that you might just be dating.

J: You know, and we talk about that a lot. Like, 95% of people fantasize about threesomes or groups. So like almost everyone is into this, but most people can't handle it. So like, there's also room for like: "I's okay if some things are just fantasies." Maybe that doesn't work for you personally. Maybe you struggle with jealousy or possessiveness or abandonment issues too much to actually make it a reality. Maybe that just doesn't work for your relationship dynamic and that's just not a smart thing. And maybe it's better to just like role play it or just fantasize about it when you masturbate or you know, maybe work it into dirty talk with your partner, but not actually do it. And like, that's totally okay too.

F: Yeah, or maybe like dating separate works better for you because you don't actually have to see it, you know, and maybe that works for you, you know.

N: Yeah, everyone has different triggers and boundaries that they need to establish based on like what they're comfortable with. But I think going back to why, you know, it's a hard non-monogamy is, can be a scary thing to explore because I think like we were saying, it takes a lot of like self growth and self reflection and you know, non-monogamy will bring out your biggest insecurities. So it's like, are you willing to put in the work to understand how you can be a better person in yourself in terms of more confidence and get less insecure and jealous? But also how can I, you know, put my partner's needs first too and kind of get over myself so that I can make sure that my partner's happy? So I think it, it's, it's, it's hard to navigate, navigate non- monogamy, but it's also like essential that you, I guess, yeah. Reflect a lot on your own, reflect a lot on what your partner's needs are and really build yourself up to the point where you're not letting your insecurities stopping you from explore that or having double standards about, you know, I'm a lot of, we hear a lot of people saying: "Okay, I'll have a threesome. A lot of men might say I'll have a threesome, but only with another girl. Like I wouldn't have it with another guy." And so it's like, okay, so you're going into this idea of non-monogamy based on what is not going to trigger your insecurities. But that isn't necessarily best for your partner because your partner selfish. Whereas your partner might want to try being with, with you and another guy. So it's doing it for the right reasons. And also there's going to be compromise because your partner is going to want to have different needs to you. And it really takes looking at your insecurity so that you're getting over those and not holding your partner back because of what you're most insecure about. So it's a lot of self, self reflection and self growth that comes with it.

F: Yeah. And do you have any tips? You know, as someone who had this desire to show other women how to get over their insecurities, connect more with their bodies. Like what are some maybe quick tips or, yeah.

N: Yeah, yeah. So every time I would start to get insecure or jealous, I would plan a date night with myself. And so if Jeremy was out of the house, I would, or even when I lived alone beforehand, I would put on some really nice lingerie, light some candles, play some music and I would just have a night of just dancing by myself in my own body. And I always felt so much like full of love for myself after those Evenings I was like, wow, I really. If I'm getting insecure, that's just a sign that I'm not feeling good enough in myself. So dancing home alone in, like, nice lingerie or a cute outfit and lighting candles or whatever it might be was just time that I would allocate to myself and I'd always fill myself up in that way. Another thing that I've practiced a lot is, like, mirror work. So looking at my reflection in the mirror and complimenting myself because then it's just with the dancing or the mirror work, it's just you and yourself really. Right? You and your body, you and your reflection. And I find that the best way to kind of pour some love into yourself that's to do with your own relationship versus just the you who you are in the relationship. Right? As in, okay,

I'm focusing on me, Natasha, and how good I feel. I'm not thinking about that through the lens of, like, my relationship and what's Jeremy up to? And that's my boyfriend. I'm like, okay, whatever Jeremy's doing, Natasha needs some, like, Natasha time right now. So I think dancing is just so, like, therapeutic in general, right? We store a lot of stress and emotion in our bodies. So I think for me, dancing has been the most powerful way in which I've, like, dropped into my body, felt good, shaken off any stress or insecurity, and just, like, had fun with myself, you know? So, yeah, dancing around your home alone is a good way to feel good about yourself, I think.

J: Also therapy.

N: Therapy. Oh, my gosh. I mean, yeah, sorry. That I feel like that's like an obvious. But, yes, therapy in terms of working through your biggest, like, insecurities and where they come from. You know, like, I've also read, like, a ton of, like, self help books and Female empowerment.

F: Any. Any ones you recommend besides the existential.

N: Yeah, "Existential kink", "Untamed" by Glennon Doyle. That was a really big one for me. also "Pussy A Reclamation" by Mama Gina. That was really the book that helped me, you know, get inspired to explore my sensuality and my body. And also Brene Brown, which is daring greatly, talking a lot about how much bravery it takes to be vulnerable. So I think a combination of those books in particular, I started to develop practices that I know would fill myself up with love and also time to meditate and just be on my own a lot more so that I'm not feeling threatened by, you know, by, again, how I am in the relationship. Just. What, what are My old needs right now, independent from my partner.

F: Yeah, yeah, I love that. We'll definitely include all those books in the show notes. But, yeah, I love that, like, you know, you're coming from a place of: "Okay, you know, I have this history. I was abused. I have these insecurities. Insecure, um, attachment?" Is that the word you use?

N: Yeah.

F: And, you know, like, people might think, like, you can do non-monogamy if you experience those things, but you actually can. And not only you are doing it successfully, but you are also helping other people from a place of, like, knowing what that actually feels like. What? because, I mean, sexual abuse is, like, so common and so prevalent. And, so, yeah, I think that what you guys are doing, is awesome. I know that you guys are sex coaches, right? So do you see people, like, privately or, like, only through. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm curious to hear about that because I'm actually now training to become a relationship coach. So I'm curious, like, what, you know, what did you guys do to, like, train and what are some of, like, the main concerns or, issues that your clients come with?

J: Sure. Well, as far as our training we took an online course through Dr. Ava Cadell, that gives you credit towards an American Association of Sexuality Educators, Counselors and Therapists (AASECT) certification. And, other than that, obviously, all of the different books that we've read, I mean, also.

F: Experience. Yeah, yeah, experience. I feel like it's the biggest thing.

J: Yeah. and as far as, like, how it worked, I mean, one, when we launched the company, we just put it out there. And, you know, we were very lucky to get very enthusiastic, you know, positive reinforcement from people saying, like: "This is so amazing. So glad you guys are doing this." We had people write in pretty quickly saying that, like, the things that we were writing and posting, like, really helped them personally. A couple people felt, strong enough to come out as being bi. A lot of people were help felt that we were helping them deal with a lot of, like, shame and guilt and different things like that. And then, when we started taking on private clients, you know, we have, one client who we helped to start navigating non-monogamy. And that was really big.

How do you have these conversations with the women that you're dating? And how do you navigate having a threesome that you know will be good, for you and your partner and not something that will start a fight or. And then how do you then go out and do this? You know, just as a relationship style from here on out in your dating as a single person.

F: So how do you do that? How do you have a threesome that won't cause you to have a fight?

J: Talk about everything over, communicate. Talk about every possibility ahead of time. check in with your partner throughout and make sure that they're good. Make a point, like you were saying. I mean, I know you phrased it as, like, everyone can take turns on the other person. We tend to do it more. Just make sure everyone is involved at the same time. Unless, someone obviously, like, wants to take a break and just, you know, hang. I'm good for now. I'm, you know, a little exhausted. I just want to watch for a bit. Whatever. But we just try to keep everyone involved at the same time so that no one feels left out. And, yeah, just, just being in touch with your partner and, like, how they're feeling and making sure that you're not making them uncomfortable. And part of that, too, is not just, like, over communicating ahead of time or debriefing after. It's, you know, working consent into what you're doing. Like: "Oh, I really want to do this with you. Or, like, how would you feel about doing this, especially in your threesome? Because it's like, okay, like, what do you want to do next? Oh, like, she really likes it when, like, I fuck the other girl from behind while she gets her pussy eaten. Like, would you like me to fuck you from behind while you eat her pussy?" You know what I mean? Like, you have to be very explicit about what it is that you're asking for, for.

N: Which also is a great way to ensure that you're establishing, like, consent from the other partner at all times. Like: "We would like this position. Like, are you okay with that?" You know?

J: Yeah, like, would you like that, too? Or do you want to try this? Or, you know, what would you like? And there's also a misconception out there that, like, asking for consent or talking about sex kills the mood, which is, like, the dumbest thing. And if you think that asking for consent is killing the mood and that it's awkward, sorry, but you're the awkward one. Like, you're the one that's making it weird. It's so easy to work consent into dirty talk. But, like: "Oh, like, how do you want me to fuck you now?" Or, like: "Uh, oh, I really want to suck your dick right now," Or I really want to fucking eat your pussy from behind" and wait for their answer. And it's like, it doesn't have to be like: "Would you like me to have intercourse with you?" Check yes or no. You know what I mean? Like, but especially in a threesome, because there's, like, two different people involved, and, like, maybe someone's not entirely bi, and, like, she's more into being with me. And then maybe just kissing Natasha or whatever it is you have to ask about: "Are you okay with this? Are you okay with that?" Like: "Would you want me to do this? Do you want her to do this with you?" Like, so communicating before, communicating during. And communicating afterwards.

N: Yeah. The debrief afterwards, I think, is especially important for saying: "Hey, I didn't love it when you did that, or you spent a lot of time in that position. And. And I was really sitting there." So next time, maybe that's not a great position for us to try. So I think the debrief is really, really important for basically being vulnerable and saying: "Hey, this upset me. Next time can we, yo know, do you want to do it again?" And next time, can we reconfigure this so we're more aware of what makes me sensitive?

J: And there's another thing that we haven't mentioned, which is also one of the biggest things that people overlook in going into it, is they have their fantasy as a couple of what they would like threesome to be like, you're dealing with another person, and that other person has their own wants and needs and desires. And so whatever your fantasy is about a threesome, it's not going to work out that way exactly. Because you have to compromise for that other person to make sure that they're cool with everything that's going on and their needs get met and that their fantasies or desires play out as well. So, you also have to, accommodate, and expect that other person to have their own, like, expectations or wants or whatever, and compromise with both your partner and the other person to make sure that, like, everyone's happy and enjoying it and whatever feels fulfilled.

F: Yeah. Yeah, I love that. I mean, I think it's true that there's ways to work consent into, like, dirty talk. And I totally agree with that. But I also like to remind people it might also be awkward. Not everyone's, like, great at that, even if they say, like: "Do you like that? Or whatever." And then you're like: "No, I don't like that." You know that.

J: And that's. That's why it's so important.

F: Yeah, yeah. And that's why it's so important. But I think that people need to also get comfortable with being like: "No. You know, I don't like that." Especially in threesome situations, because it's like double pleasure. Because you're not pleasure. Also double pleasure. But I meant to say pressure. You know, because it's not only like pleasing your partner, it's pleasing like the other person. And if they both want to do something that you don't want to do, like, you know, it can be. Yeah, it can be really hard. So I think, you know, just like we were saying, having conversations about desires, like when you are dating is vulnerable and it's difficult. Also saying no is vulnerable and is difficult. And it might be a tiny little bit awkward, but then it's going to be great. Because you said if you say no to the things that you don't want, then you're making space for the things that you want. So, like, then you'll have a great experience and then that, like, little awkward moment will not even be remembered, you know.

J: And on the other side, you asking establish even just you asking, even if it is a no, you're establishing trust with that person. So then they're going to be more relaxed, moving forward, and everyone's going to have a better time. And then also again, like, about not burning bridges. It's not like, oh, I had a three semens couple and they weren't really concerned about me, he never asked and whatever. So, like, I'm not going to do that versus, like: "Wow, that person was really attentive and like, cared about how I felt and like, gave me the space to speak up and say no." Because especially a lot of women don't feel, saying no is confrontational to them. So they don't feel strong enough to speak up. So, like, giving them that space, waiting for the answer, pausing before you do something and say: "Hey, like, I would really like to do this." And allowing them to answer. They say no. I'm like: "I'm not really feeling that right now." And then the other thing is with anything involving sex, respect the no respect and know the first time. And don't, don't push people. The more you can make them feel comfortable. I mean, maybe they're just not comfortable doing that the first time. And maybe they'll let you, you know, maybe they'll be into that later once you establish trust. Or maybe that's just a hard no for them. But there are other things that they would be into. And like, in general, everything else you've already been doing up to that point is cool. And, like, you know, they'll still be comfortable with you even if they're not into that one act, you know?

N: Yeah, and also, like, the awkwardness of saying no, again, it's like a muscle that you have to flex and get, you know, more used to saying no, if you're not used to it, but also the awkwardness in the situation. I'm like: "Oh, okay, let's do something else." Like, sex can be awkward and messy, right? Like, body, but bodily fluids get everywhere or whatever. It might be. Like, it's, you know, you might fart or queer or. Yeah.

J: Like two bodies slapping up against each other making weird, sweaty, slappy sound like seals, like something.

N: But sex is messy and awkward. And I think that's. That's, you know, one of the biggest things that we're trying to normalize is like, yeah, sex can be, can be awkward, but that's real. Right? Like, the sex you see in porn or in mainstream movies doesn't show the messiness and getting into certain positions that can be awkward and clumsy. You know, I think it's just getting used to the awkwardness of it all and not feeling embarrassed by it just because we don't see. See those real, you know, awkward experiences in mainstream media. So I think getting used to the fact that sex can be awkward, but it's nothing to be ashamed about. So, like, let's laugh about it. You know, I just farted. Let's laugh about it. Rather than me going into, like, fear that I've ruined the, like, perfect experience, you know, let's just normalize it and realize these are human bodies. Like, bodies do things sometimes that, like, are out of your control. So, like, being okay with the messiness of all of that and the awkwardness.

F: Yeah, Yeah. I think you mentioned that you love, like, at play parties, like, just seeing, like, everyone kind of, like, having sex and having a good time and maybe not having sex. But, like, one of the things that I enjoy the most about the about play parties sometimes is, like, not even that. I mean, that's great. But also just being, like, seeing how silly it is. Like, there's. There would be, like, you know, people having sex, and then you're, like, eating a sandwich and, like, you know, like, whatever. Like, someone's, like, getting a phone call. Like, I don't know. It's just, like. It's, like, messiness around that. It's just like: "Oh, this is funny." Like, we're in this situation, and it's not like what you see in porn.

N: Yeah. It's real.

F: Yeah.

J: And like casual. Like we, and we've had that exact scenario where like two people started at it before anyone else did and they're full on like hard fucking, like spanking each other and whatever else. And the rest of us are still fully dressed and like sipping cocktails and eating cheese.

F: Just watching.

J: Yeah. For like a half hour until someone else started making out. And then the rest of us got into the sex party. It was just like two people met, were immediately attracted to other, immediately started fucking and the rest of us are like: "So where are you from?"

N: Yeah, that's funny. Yeah. But it's also cool that it just normal like it's also. That's why I love sex parties because it's such a open, non judgmental space. Like you can be fucking or you can just be observing or you can be eating. Like I just love that. It's, it's just everyone can do their own thing and it's a non judgmental space for however, whatever type of experience you want to have. You can go to a sex party without having sex. You know, you can just watch or.

J: It's definitely, we had friends come and do that. Yeah, they just want to watch or like maybe make out but they're not comfortable with being touched right now or whatever it is. And like, it's also important to have like a non pressure environment, and make sure everyone feels comfortable. And then like, you, boundaries are to be respected and you only have to do whatever you're comfortable doing and lay down the ground rules of like, you know, consent is to be respected without question and boundaries are to be respected without question. And if anyone doesn't like, you gotta leave, that's it. Like no second chances, no nothing. These are the rules going in. Like, we vet people very hard to make sure they understand what those things mean and how they work. We stop problems before they happen. You know what I mean? I don't let anyone into this space with people who I like or care about and where there is the potential for someone to be assaulted and for trauma to happen. We stop those problems before they happen and don't let anyone in who doesn't already understand those things upfront and how they work and like knows to respect them.

F: Yeah, I mean, you know, sometimes people are like: "Oh, so what are like play parties? Like?" And I'm like, which play party? Right? Like it's like any party, right? So yeah, finding like a party that you feel like you have some trust with the people that they do a consent talk. All of that is, is important. So I know this podcast is about non-monogamy, but since you guys are sex coaches and I'm sure that this question has come up, for you, what do you do when, like, you might want something that your partner doesn't want, but then they are not open to non-monogamy, or even you are not open to non-monogamy. Like, you want to remain monogamous, but you have, like a certain desire, whether it's like rough sex or being pegged, I don't know, whatever it is, and like, maybe the other person doesn't want to do it.

N: Yeah, we have, well, there's one website in particular that we, like, recommend everyone looking at, which is https://sexionnaire.com/ and this website is really helpful because, you know, if you're partnered, it gives you each a questionnaire and you answer all the different kind of like, kinks or fetishes or even like, sexual positions that you're into.

And so, you know, you and your partner answer those separately and then you kind of submit it and this will match you up with all your common interests.

J: It only shows the thing that.

N: You, that you both said you're into. So it's a really good way to essentially say: "Hey, oh, this is cool, we're both into these things" and fast track the conversation.

J: Are you into this? And maybe they're embarrassed about asking about that one thing.

N: So that's a great starting place to get aligned on what you're both interested in in terms of, like, that can be. Yeah, a conversation starter. What are we both interested in that we'd like to explore? But then that can also. Also open to the conversation. Well, I'm into this. These things that aren't on this list, or I'm into this, and it just helps have this generalized conversation about maybe we start focusing on the things that we're both interested in. But are there other compromises of things that I'm not necessarily into that you know, we can try? For example?

J: Yeah, because sometimes it's like: "Okay, I'm not into this, but I'm not offended by it. So I'll do this for you and it doesn't harm me. I'm just not getting anything sexual from this. But you are. And, like, I want you to be happy and that's cool." So there's that compromise, but then there's another layer which is what you're getting at, where it's like: "No, that's a hard no for me." And you're into that. So, you know, if that's a non, it's a non, non-monogamy situation. If that's a monogamous situation and there's no room for, okay, you need to get that from someone else, then, you know, there needs to be a hard discussion about how important is that to you in a relationship and is it okay for you to just leave that as fantasy or masturbatory or are we sexually incompatible and you're not going to be happy unless you have this thing. And I, I, there's a hard line and a hard no for me and I'm not going to be able to provide that for you. So now we have to have a discussion about, you know, would you want to stay in this relationship and not have that thing with me or from me, or should you go find someone that you can have that with? And honestly, that's okay. And I think sexual incompatibility is really important for people to talk about and it's not something that's talked about enough. Whether that's like a wild difference in desired frequency. If someone's a once a month person, another person is a twice a day person, there's no amount of compromise where they're ever both going to be happy. Someone's going to feel pressured to have sex too much and the other person is going to feel that they're getting rejected way too frequently. And or if it's like a, you know, a kink that someone's really into and whatever. But it's like people have this idea that you can't break up with someone over sex because that's quote unquote, like a superficial reason or whatever. And like that's absolutely not true. Like why are you even attracted to that gender in the first place? You know, whether you're straight or gay or whatever it is, like sex is an integral part of a relationship and a big part of your attraction to that partner and anything more than a friend sense.

N: Also a big part of your own emotional and physical wellbeing.

J: Right. So yeah, and sense of happiness and identity and relationship satisfaction. So the idea that like, you can't break up with someone over a sex thing, whether it's a kink or any sort of incompatibility, is absolutely untrue. And it's okay to say: "Hey, look, we're a great couple in a lot of different senses, but we don't match up that way. And you're never going to be happy without getting that thing. So, uh, maybe we need to break up if non-monogamy is not on the table."

F: Yeah.

J: And that's totally okay. It's not superficial.

N: It's not something to feel shameful about.

J: It's a perfectly valid reason to break up. You're not compatible in this one way.

F: Yeah, for sure. But I love the idea of like, kind of maybe instead of focusing on the thing you're not getting that your partner doesn't want to give you, maybe focus on the things that you both have in common. So maybe by just like shifting your attention, then you might realize that the thing that you thought that you really needed to be sexually fulfilled, maybe you actually do not need it. And then if after doing that, if after just focusing on the things that you both want to do that maybe are like new and exciting, you still feel like you need it, then maybe you can open up the non- monogamous conversation. Then if that doesn't work out, then you can think of breaking up or just. It's also valid to say: "Okay, I'm going to give up this fantasy. I'm going to repress this desire. I mean, we all have to do compromises because I love this person so much in so many other ways."

J: Sure. And what you said is really interesting too, because, you know, aside from just like: "Oh, we can try these other things." One of the best exercises we ever had in both a good and a bad sense is the discussion of why. So we've done it. As far as like that whole debrief about, you know, what are your triggers or what things could bother you about. Non-monogamy, the why is really important because that can lead you to other things that might trigger you. It's the same thing with kinks. And I talk about this a lot. The why is super important because it could be: "Oh, I really want to try this. Well, why? What about that turns you on?" Because that can guide you towards other things that you would be turned on by other kinks and other fantasies that you know are similar as far as why that appeals to you, but a different app that maybe your partner's into, you're still scratching that same itch.

F: Yeah. Can you give an example? I know what you're talking about, but I feel like an example would be helpful.

J: Sure. So think about it like bondage, Right? So it's about giving up control to the other person. Like, it could be the physical feeling of being tied down, but it might be about giving up control to the other person. There are ways that you can have a dom/sub relationship with somebody and submit to them without having to be physically tied up. And it can be just you agree to whatever role play you're doing and you follow their commands and, you know, you are at their will, as opposed to them having to restrain you. And then they can do whatever they want to you within, you know, your agreement of whatever you're into. And obviously use the safe word everybody. But, it's about giving up control. It's not about being physically tied down. You know what I mean? So it doesn't necessarily have to.

F: Yeah. Why do you want that kink? Because I want to give off control. Okay, let's. Like, what are other things

that might get you that. Because I hate bondage or whatever.

J: Right. Yeah. I don't like being physically restrained, but I want you to be in charge of what we do. Yeah. So you're. You're getting that same, feeling and fulfilling that same desire without it being like: "Hey, I'm not. I'm not comfortable tying you up," you know?

F: Yeah.

J: Okay, so let's do it through roleplay.

F: Yeah. Okay. Amazing. So many topics we could continue talking about, but, before we kind of wrap up, I wanted to, like, quickly touch on porn, because I know that you guys have educational porn videos out there.

J: And regular porn.

F:And regular porn. Okay, amazing. So for people out there who might be interested, but, I mean, since you do both, is actually, like, great, because. So, I don't know, like, I feel like porn can be really great, but there's also a lot of sexist porn out there and violent porn out there. And I've heard, like, guys being like: "Oh, like, porn has, like, kind of, like, ruined my sexual experience." I mean, I'm sure women experience it as well, but because most porn is from a male heterosexual perspective, obviously we don't want people to feel like they need to live up to, like, what they watch on porn. But also, there's nothing wrong about watching porn, and it can be very fulfilling. Right.

N: I think, I mean, porn, it can be so helpful for understanding what your own kinks are and what your own fetishes are and what positions you like. But also what one with a porn with a partner, you see what turns them on and what they're interested in. So porn can be really helpful for you, navigating what your own desires are. But then on the flip side, it can be, it can be not helpful when, you know, for example, there's like, no foreplay done. And, you know, the. All you see is the woman, like, moaning, really exaggerated, like she's always having a good time. Or the fact that maybe basically the dick goes into the ass with no lube and no foreplay, no buildup. Like, it's really kind of damaging because that's not showing. Again, like the messiness or the awkwardness of: "Oh, let's get the lube out. We need a lot of lube before we try anal." Right. Or you know, it doesn't show anyone like, farting or any of that stuff.

J: You keep going back to farting.

N: Sorry, I clearly fart a lot during sex.

J: I don't think you ever have.

N: Well, queefing the front type of.

J: I was like, did I miss it? Have you been sneaking these out?

F: I was going to say, do you fart in your, in your porn videos to show people the messiness of sex?

N: So we are very. So in our, in the, in our, educational porn in particular, we are very much, you know, showing how much lube you actually can need with anal. Like, we'll say we're going to put on lube now and then keep reapplying lube. Like, we're very, very open and communicative about the things that I think porn would normally leave out, which is like the messiness of having. Awkwardness of having to stop and get more lube.

J: Yeah. And that. And that's very specific to anal. But, so there, there are a few different misconceptions about porn. Like, one, a lot of it shows scenarios that are definitely sexual assault. They don't show consent or ongoing escalating consent of asking about each new position or act that you want to do. It also, it's a visual medium to appeal, like you said, to mainly, you know, a male audience. And so they show what looks hot, they're not showing what feels good and how to pleasure a woman. So the positions are what looks hot to a guy, not what feels good to girls. So a lot of guys are trying to do what is essentially, you know, the highest level of professional athlete at fucking. But they're doing it for the audience at home, not for their partner. So, like, it's not showing a realistic depiction of, like, what positions and moves feel good. It's not showing how to get consent in a, like at all, let alone in a way that's like, sexy and not awkward, you know, but at the very least just at all. And then it reinforces scenarios that are, definitely sexual assault. In a lot of the different, like, porn scenarios and porn is, I believe, 90% of people's first introduction to sex. So we're mainstream. Porn teaches a lot of bad lessons that you have to then unlearn later in life. And some people don't ever bother to take the time to unlearn them. Or no one ever says something to you like: "Yo, what the hell are you thinking? Trying to, like, fuck me in the ass with no lube and without asking. Like, that was just sexual assault. And also, that is going to hurt me. Like, you could do it in a way where it would feel good."

F: Yeah, the performance thing is big, right? Like, the: "Oh, I have to have this stamina." And, like, often that's not even, like, what women want. Like, not. Not every woman wants to be, like, you know, fucked in that way that's, like, very, like: "Oh, I'm macho." And, like, very fast and aggressive. Like. Yeah. The foreplay, like, I don't know. I hate it. Like, when in porn when they, like, cut from, like, a kiss to, like, all of the sudden, like, a blowjob, and you're like, wait. But, like, the best part, they cut it out, you know? So, so, yeah, it's awesome that you guys, sounds like are trying to put out a different image of what sex can be. And also something that I've heard you say in other interviews is, like, everyone's different. So it's not only teaching the actual skills, but teaching the, how does this feel? And really focusing on how things feel more than how things look, as you.

J: Which is especially hard with women because, I mean, the clit is on the outside, which is the most important part as far as women and pleasure. But the G spot, the A spot, the P spot, are all internal. And so that's very hard for people to see. And, you know the internal shape and size of a woman's vagina is the same as the shape and size of every guy's penis. They're all different. And so it is about, like, exploring and asking your partner, how does this feel? And what do you like? Because everyone's different, and you can't necessarily see that from the outside.

F: Yeah, I mean, especially women are so complex. I've always been, like, a sexual person, but it took me, like, a while to figure out how to, like, make myself calm. Because really, I just, like, you know, was never thought, like. I mean, first of all, I didn't watch porn. And then even if you watch it, there's no, like, this is how you touch a woman. It's always like, Focused on like, the pleasure of the man. And yeah, I just think it's like so important to read books. And like, there's even stuff that I'm still learning that I'm like, you know, I went to, I went to a squirting workshop at Burning Man. And that's where I learned like, because I had this confusion with squirting and you know, like regular orgasms. Because, like, you know, I was like: "Okay, so when I squirt, I guess I'm having an orgasm." But I wasn't like, really sure. Cause of course it feels very different than the clitoral one. And then I learned like, actually, like, it's two separate things. Like you can squirt and have an orgasm or you can just squirt and even that. Like, I didn't know. And this was September like three months ago, you know, like, so there's so much that we don't talk about, especially when it comes to women's sexuality.

J: Because there's no pleasure based Sex Ed. Even if you're lucky enough to get Sex Ed as a kid, as a teenager or whatever, it's about reproduction and diseases. It's not about. They never mentioned the G spot. Without having that pleasure based Sex Ed. We're just left with a huge deficit to try to overcome as adults through your own exploration and sort of like a fumbling, awkward meander towards trying to get this knowledge and these skills and understand, like, how to please a partner and how to go about having these conversations.

N: Also don't like pleasing your own body, let alone a partner's body. Right? We're not taught about our own pleasure network and how the different ways we can enjoy our bodies, let alone potentially the opposite sex and what feels good for them. So, yeah, without pleasure based sex, then it's just no wonder we all feel confusion and awkwardness. And also why? You know, I think like, squirting has become a big area of confusion. Right? Like no one ever has. We've only just really recently started to address what squirting actually is. Right? Like clitoris was only added to the dictionary.

J: Like it was only codified by science in the late 90s.

N: 90s. Yeah, the 90s, you know, so recent.

F: Yeah, it's really been overlooked, the whole like, spectrum of female sexuality. And it's sad, that so many women, especially of like younger generations, like, never even like, knew that, you know, they could actually be sexually satisfied or like, how to pleasure themselves or like, you know, I'm grateful one of the good things about the internet is that now there's so much more information. Information out there. But yeah, I'm so glad that there's people like you, like, kind of changing the narrative and like, kind of making also like porn and just the information that's out there not so like, centered in like a patriarchal, like, heterosexual, like, perspective, you know, because I think it's very important to like, empower women in that way.

J: Yeah. To show real pleasure and real sex.

F: Yeah. Yeah.

J: And explain to people how to have a themselves.

F: Yeah. And to focus on the feeling. I think that's really important. And I think that's something that even like, I try to like, remind myself. It's like kind of meditation. Right. Like coming back to the breath. Like, it's the same in sexy if, like, sometimes you are like, I don't know, not really present. You have to like, go back and like, focus on like, how you're feeling as opposed to like, what society tells you that you should be doing or what you watch from porn or how.

J: You look and is.

N: Or how you look.

J: Yeah. In that position, how does your body. Yeah. Uh, being self conscious instead of just focusing on enjoying the moment and pleasuring your partner.

N: Yeah. And I think especially for women, enjoying it for yourself, not just being seen as a vessel for male pleasure. Right?

F: Yeah.

N: Communicating feeling on your own feelings, which society at large hasn't really encouraged. You know, sexually empowered women are, labeled as sluts. Instead of being like, wait, like, for me, I find sex, like meditation. I get out of my head. It's a way that I drop into my feelings. And that can be so, so healing for women who aren't, taught how to be empowered and feel good in themselves versus just submitting and potentially never orgasming from their partner because they didn't know that they can feel so good and have all these different types of orgasms. Because we grew up in this patriarchal culture.

F: Yeah. It's funny because, when I was having trouble like, coming and I would talk to my mom about it, and my mom was like, she had the same experience funnily enough. So I wonder if it has to do. Maybe we're just like, more complex in our biology. I don't know. But I think part of it was also we had a hard time letting go of feeling that we need to be like, pleasing the guy. And, like, in order for you to come, you have to be a little bit selfish, Quote, unquote. You have to forget about the other person for a second, so you can actually come. Right? And I think that for me it was like a process of being like: "Okay, forget about him." Actually something that has helped me is thinking of that person watching me and then I think, oh, that person is finding it really hard. So maybe it's not like the healthiest solution because it's still like from a male perspective. But honestly that's kind of how I operate. And something that I've discovered that because we live in this patriarchal society where we are shown a version of sex that's very male gaze centered, to be honest. Like my own sexuality is like filtered to the male gaze, but in a way that has given me more independence because like it's filtered to the male gaze. But it's me who's like thinking about it, you know? And it's me the one who's like getting turned on by that.

N: Right. And controlling that narrative. You are controlling that narrative?

F: Yeah.

N: Feeling like you have to adhere to a, the society, society's narrative.

J: But that might not even be a patriarchal, socialization thing. That might just be that you feel hot knowing that someone else is turned on by you and that like doubles your pleasure. Do you mean?

F: Right, but I don't necessarily like, think about like: "Oh, she is finding this so hard." Like, yeah, that's, that's why I don't date women separately because I kind of like to think of what he's seeing and that's like what turns me on.

J: Interesting.

F: When I figured that out, that also like helped me like with my own sexuality. So like there doesn't need to be a man there and I can be like on my own. But I'm still thinking this is how a guy would see it, you know, which is like, it's just what it is, you know? But yeah, yeah, it's a journey for sure. This is so interesting, but let's finish with the last question, which is what would you tell to a polycurious person?

N: For me it would be I think essentially keeping true to yourself, and being honest with your insecurities. Like open, radical communication about what your insecurities are. But also if you're curious, making sure that you are spending a lot of time with yourself and loving yourself through the process so that you're really nurturing who you are as an individual versus just getting lost in potentially what your partner wants. So I think self growth and self love are just essential before navigating kind of like non-monogamy. So you don't abandon your own needs throughout the process.

J: And jumping off the last thing that she said. So we don't actually consider ourselves polyamorous.

F: Yeah, neither do I, which is so surprising to people because I have Polycurious. Sounds like I'm totally polyamorous. I'm not. I don't consider myself.

J: But it's become, and we say it too, because it's become a catch all. I mean, you could say non- monogamy or whatever, but it's like the best thing about this entire, like, social movement that's happening right now is re examining your relationship style as a whole. Monogamy is no longer the automatic default. You can cater to however you want to do it. You can find other people that would be into that type of relationship style and maybe that changes. You know, maybe you do develop feelings for someone else and decide: "Oh, shit, I'm poly." If you are curious about this, you can find some sort of relationship dynamics that work for you. That's, that's my advice.

N: And also that going labels don't really matter because even if you identify as polyamorous or non, um, monogamous, every relationship is going to have its own boundaries and parameters. So I think also, just like you were saying, going with what feels good for you and what your needs are and not getting hung up on what type of relationship it is or what the label is. So it's just going with what you think is best and creating your own rules that work for you and your partner.

F: Yeah. Relationship by design, right?

N: Exactly.

F: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Love that. This has been wonderful. Thank you so much for everything.

N: Thanks for having us.

J: Thanks for having us.

F: Okay, guys, thank you so much for tuning in. I love Natasha and Jeremy. I think they're so great. And, they speak so eloquently about sex and pleasure and all of the topics we discussed today. So if you want to hear more from them, if you want to hear more from me, don't forget to join us for that Instagram Live. That's this Sunday, May 7th. And all you have to do is go to our Instagram Polycurious podcast where I will be posting all of the details. Okay, guys, thank you so much for tuning in and I'll catch you all on the next episode.