Sarah: The whole point of desire is about remaining curious about your partner. And that's why I called. You know what I do. Beautiful Space. It is the space between two individuals. It's. You're reducing the merging. You know, like, I know the routine. I know what they're going to say before they've said it. You know, to be able to create that space between you where desire lives, and you look at your partner curiously.

Fernanda: Hi, everyone. I am Fer and this is Polycurious. And today I spoke to Sarah Tilley, therapist and psychedelic guide. Sarah is the founder and CEO of Beautiful Space. She is based in the UK but works with couples in the Netherlands, where, as you may know, mushrooms are legal. I met Sarah last year at a psychedelic conference that my friend puts up. The name is Wonderland and it happens in Miami in November. Link is in the show notes if you want to check that out.

I bet if you're into this podcast, you're probably familiar with psychedelics, but just quickly if you aren't. Psychedelics are substances that produce an altered state of consciousness. The most common ones which you have probably heard of or tried are magic mushrooms, referred to as psilocybin and LSD, also known as acid. I have to preface this episode by saying that I am not telling you just to go off and do psychedelics. As we talk about in today's conversation, set and setting is super important, as well as dosage. And these substances are illegal in most places in the United States, although that is beginning to change as more studies come out showing how powerful they can be as a treatment for depression, PTSD, etc.

Although I'd say I don't experience depression often. We all have things we deal with and honestly, my personal experience with psychedelics has been very, very healing. I feel like every time I do it, it just shows me my insecurities in a way that can be difficult but also very fruitful. I would not recommend doing this in a party setting. Whenever I do try, I am m in nature surrounded with people that I trust. And I'm very careful about dosage because I know it can definitely get overwhelming. And what has really surprised me about my experiences is that psychedelics really do show you things that you aren't able to always notice when you're stuck in your everyday mental narratives.

So I was super curious about what Sarah had to say about the use of psychedelics to treat couples. And it was an interesting conversation because Sarah is from an older generation and treats couples who have been together for decades and might have probably lost the sexual spark in their lives or loss of sexual desire which is not something that we normally talk about in this podcast. And today we also speak about what couples might do to become more intimate even without the use of psychedelics.

We talk about MDMA, common, commonly known as Molly, and how it can also be a great tool to get couples to reconnect. Again. This drug is not legal in the United States. I'm not telling you to go off and do it, but there are studies showing that it can be really great, especially combined with talk therapy. The way I would describe how MDMA feels to people is that it allows you to feel a lot of love and appreciation for yourself and the people around you. That is why, as you can imagine, it can be extremely impactful for couples who are yearning to reconnect.

Before we start, I want to quickly remind you that if you feel like you need help in your non-monogamous journey, either with your partner or on your own, I can help you as a coach. Even if you are monogamous, I'm trained to help with communication skills and resolve conflict. So if you are interested, you can just write to me through my Instagram Polycurious podcast or to my polycuriouspodcast@gmail.com.

Okay, here's my interview with Sarah Tilley.

F: Sarah, welcome to Polycurious. I'm beyond excited to have you. I feel like we have so much to talk about already. And yeah, we are here in Miami at Wonderland, a conference around psychedelics and the psychedelic industry. And yeah, I just participated in your workshop earlier on, which was great. And yeah, it just sparked so many questions and so much inspiration. So, yeah, thank you for being here.

S: You're so welcome.

F: So why don't we start just learning a little bit more about you, about your work, but also where you come from and the path that led you to do the kind of work that you do.

S: I was born in London and I was fostered and adopted at birth and grew up in a violent home actually. And I was always a little bit on the outside of the home, you know, although that's what we trust is love. And I also studied the violin from a very early age. So, I'm a violinist and you know, I was channeled very early on into becoming a professional violinist. Yet at the same time, you know, I had this extraordinary curiosity about pleasure, intimacy, sexuality and I always knew that about me. Although, you know, when you're innocent and young, you don't know that. It's, you know, so, you know, potent at that age is sexual awakening.

You know, when I work with people, it is, you know, there's a very early age, which I will ask people, so 6 and 8. And I was definitely one of those where I kind of had a wake up and it was just a touch you know, soothing myself. The disassociation of the trauma, allowed me to take time by myself. You know, studying the violin meant I was always in constant meditation with the music. And, you know, from there I just learned to the sensations of the vibrations of my body. When I left home, I, I went and lived in a sex therapist's house. And this was, you know, back in the 80s.

F: Oh, wow. What age were you when you left?

S: 17.

F: Oh, wow.

S: And suddenly I was looking at this bookshelf and it was like: "Oh, my God, I'm normal." You know, all of this stuff is normal. You know, as a young teenager, I would think, you know, this is so exciting. You know, kind of playing, experimenting, you know, I used to spend hours doing that. And then going into a sex therapist's home who was in an open relationship, just woke everything up in me. And, you know, I started then to drop my shame. And that was really. I'd started therapy when I was 15 as well. So that was the kind of beginning of understanding that it was okay to feel the way I did. And then I got married. All of this is in London. I got married. I asked at the very beginning of my marriage if we could have an open relationship, but it was the wrong time to ask. You know, I should have checked in before then. And then, you know, moving now to now, I'm, I'm based in London, but I work in the Netherlands doing psychedelics legally. And, it's, yeah, it's kind of my interest in female empowerment around female, sexuality. You know, if I can do it becoming from a coming from a very disempowered position, if I can follow that truth within myself, you know, that is my job to help other women do that.

F: Yeah. Wow, that's an incredible story. How did you end up at, this sex therapist's house?

S: She was the mother of a friend of mine who played the cello. She's actually quite a famous sex therapist in London. So, yeah, suddenly I was in, at the age of 17, you know, able to talk with someone about sex, about abortion, about, you know, all these things which were shamed in my, you. know, family of origin

F: Yeah, that's very powerful. I think that it's very important to have those conversations. And that's like, also why this podcast is out there. Because even though I can't have private conversations with all of my m listeners, they can at least hear a different way of doing relationships and let go of that shame that a lot of us carry growing up.

S: Right, right the way through to the end of our lives sometime. But we live in a different era now. And you know, we have podcasts like this, we have therapists like me, we have whole businesses dedic to female sexuality, female pleasure. And I'm really happy to be part of that scene.

F: Yeah, I'm so happy that I was born into this new generation in a way. And also my background, I'm half Cuban and I don't know, Cubans are just very sexual or very, comfortable with their sexuality. So I actually didn't grow up with like so much shame around my sexuality, which is, I think one of the reasons why I'm able to speak about it publicly. But I definitely see how older generations, and also even nowadays, especially in religious circles, there's a lot of shame around that. And it's interesting because we are transitioning into a time where women, don't have to be married anymore. We can work, we have contraception. So I think that with that female empowerment also comes empowerment when it comes to our pleasure and what we want from our sexual life. There's people like you that are working to get women to that place. And not only women, but, couples as well.

S: Absolutely. So I created Beautiful Space, really. Having been a therapist for 20 years using plant medicine and altered states, I came to a place in my life, you know, with that history, I came to a place in my life where I got divorced. And it was horrible divorce. You know, it pressed all my buttons of separation, anxiety of attachment styles. And it, you know, took me right down to ground zero. And my children were involved in that. Of course they lived with me. They suffered with mental illness because of that. And it's really important to me, as I created Beautiful Space that not only do we have couple dialogue, that we address childhood trauma in order to know, to have, how to have long term relationships long enough for the children to grow up, you know, let's call that until 25. And then, you know, in there is to help, you know, that generation. My kids are, 23 and 25. Help that generation grow up without shame.

F: Yeah. Is this the husband that you mentioned that you had open up the conversation about opening up. Can you maybe talk a little bit about that? Because I feel like there's a lot of people who are, you know, maybe want to open up, but then they are like: "Oh, my partner won't even consider it, so I'm not gonna voice these desires." How was that experience for you? Because you mentioned that at that time it maybe wasn't the right time, but that you should have probably done it later. When and how would it be a good time for people to open up that conversation if that's what they want?

S: Third date. I mean, you just want to have a nice first date, and see who that person is, hold space for potential. You know, the question is whether you know yourself in that way. And I think that these days there's enough, you know, television material, you know, gender equality, you know, media about sexuality and gender to really start to bring early into the conversation of what do I feel I am? You know, there's no rules anymore. The only rules are put on us by our parents expectations these days. Back then in the 90s when I was first married, you know, it was unheard of really. You know, it wasn't something you found on the Internet. There wasn't this, you know, kind of blogs to read and podcasts. And it's just so important that we encourage, you know, this generation.

But I also work with, you know, couples who have been in, you know, a long term relationship. They might have had children, you know, sexuality might have changed for her. You know, her relationship with herself and sexuality has become a problem. And then the question comes in, from, from him and from her. Can I have sex with other people? You know, broaching that subject, how do you broach that subject? Very, very delicately. And it's from the place of I feel.

F: Right. I love that. I love that. Because I feel like something that I've learned through my partnership is to kind of distinguish between the I feel and I'm demanding this from you. Right. And when you come from a place of, listen, I'm not asking you to do anything at this moment. I just want to be honest about how I feel. Because you are my partner and I want you to know where I stand. And right now I'm feeling a desire to explore my sexuality with other people. Doesn't mean that we have to do anything right now, but I just want you to like, know that that's how I'm feeling right now. Is that what you were Thinking of.

S: Absolutely and in there is not just necessarily exploring my sexuality, but it's exploring who I am. That each time, you know, there's this, mating in captivity, you know, from Esther Perel. I've been studying with her for five years. And you know, why do we have affairs in the answer is, you know, because we want to see another version of ourselves.

F: Right.

S: We don't want to break up from the security that we have. But you know, it takes such delicacy and respect and compassion for two individuals or more to have that conversation of are we ready to change our relationship? Because we don't know where it's going to lead to. Ultimately we want to be and choose a relationship and cultivate a relationship where, you know, we experience freedom within relationship over the course of the lifetime of a relationship. And let's say, you know, you've choose someone at 25, 29, you know, you go on to have a family with them. You have menopause at 42, you know, to 50, you know, all of this then changes. So you know, there are these moments, of change anyway, and that's what's really important to understand about your relationship. But understand where you are in that, timeline of change.

F: Yeah, for sure. Can you maybe share a little bit more? Like in practical terms, the type of work that you do with couples, how does it actually like practically work your practice and what difference did you see between couples you work with psychedelics and without?

S: So I work with couples in a program, it's a three month program over, and it's 18 hours of touch time. In between is psycho education. So it's book reading, it's podcasts, it's journal work. There'll be some written work as well. Well and in there is an eight hour medicine day, where we have built up to, you know, depending on what a couple has come with. And it's any number of things, but generally speaking, every couple comes because they're not having the sex that they want.

And then we unpack that and it is, you know, is it the communication skills? Is it because you have a trauma which is kind of rearing its head and you know, you don't trust your partner. Suddenly you don't trust your partner because maybe they did something like spend all the money without telling you? These are very real life stories of what couples over a long period of time are dealing with. Menopause is a really big factor in rediscovering the erotic intelligence within the same relationship. And we will draw a line in the sand. And it is about, there's the old relationship and here we are discovering a new one and it's relationship 2.0.

F: I love that that idea of letting go of a story we have because we normally do have stories not only about our relationships but about ourselves. And I do feel like psychedelics from my personal experience help you break out of those narratives that you have and then jump into a new narrative of the relationship that you might have.

S: And yeah, how does taking psychedelics speed up this process of seeing yourself from another perspective and letting go of the story that doesn't suit you and relationship 2.0. And you know what I have with my company is Science advisor, so from Imperial University in London, Imperial College, there's the Psychedelic Research Center and they're doing unique research in sex and psychedelics.

You know, so we have such a wonderful foundation of why we want to do this. You know, why we want to bring sex and relationships into the forefront of conversation. You know, how does it affect our mental health? How can we optimize all of this to our well being? We've never had anything like this before. We can do breath work, we can do holotropic breathwork, we can do mindfulness and meditation. We can do all sorts of things in the sense of the couple. But for us to go through and break down habitual thinking and habitual behaviors what this gives us, you know, potentially therapy was endless. You know, there was a lot of going around in circles and the arguments in front of the therapist to see who's right and wrong. You know, there are understanding the, what you're bringing into the relationship now with psychedelics, we can see very clearly after three months and 18 hours of touch time, having gone through the 14 module program, that couples are intimate again. They recognize that they love each other and these are couples facing divorce. They recognize whose trauma is playing out and they have a new type of conversation available to them and then they have the psychedelic experience to talk about as well. So it's a whole new way of existing with your partner.

F: Yeah, I love that. And you know we do have listeners in Europe who might be able to, engage with Beautiful Space. But for those people who might not have access to that sort of treatment, what are some of the things that they can apply in their relationship?

S: Absolutely. And you know, why are we doing this? Why do we want to you know, kind of have an Intervention with our partners. First of all, you have to address what's going on, what isn't working, so you can say to your partner, let's have a decent conversation. Because I feel XYZ, I feel lonely, I feel sad. I don't feel connected to you anymore. You're doing this, that and the other. I'm spending a lot of time with my friends, you know, and I'm, you know, I'm occupied with my friends. But the intimacy has gone, you know, there's neglect.

And there is one thing that we all, you know, are in danger of arriving at in a relationship is taking our partner for granted.

F: Right? Yeah.

S: We don't even know that it's happened until we feel like, alone, sad. We look at what's gone on. So it is creating this structure. Okay. We need to go on a date night, we need to read a book together, we need to do one of the exercises. And give yourself a two month, a one month period where you build this thing called a daily practice. And you, both of you feed your relationship. So you have one individual, second individual. And then you feed your relationship as well. You have the relationship.

F: Yeah, I love that. Yeah. With taking your partner for granted, I feel like for me, non-monogamy, that's it's something that has helped me not to do that because after I go on a date with someone else, I come back and I see my partner with new, different eyes. Right. I'm not sure if there's maybe tools that people who might not be non-monogamous can use. Even if they might not be that, exploratory with their openness.

S: Yeah. And you know, the whole point of desire is about remaining curious about your partner. And that's why I called. You know what I do? Beautiful Space. It is the space between two individuals. It's. You're reducing the merging. You know, like, I know the routine, I know what they're going to say before they've said it. You know, to be able to create that space between you where desire lives and you look at your partner curiously. So it might be, you know, changing the whole schedule of how you have your relationship. The question is, why do you want to do that rather than go and have a new relationship? what do you think about that?

F: Well, I feel like going away from my relationship makes it easier to come back and see it with different eyes. Because when I'm with someone new, I don't have those, preconditioned behaviors that I might have with my partner. And then I have to kind of get into that mindset of: "Okay, let me kind of think of my feet, on my feet, or design a date a special date with my partner." The way I would do it with someone who I just met and who I want to. I want to present the best version of myself. Right. So I'm very intentional even when I'm not seeing other people, to kind of remind myself to treat my relationship as if we had just met in a way, you know, And I try to get pretty for the date and do all these things that we might not do. And that's helpful even when I'm not dating, Just having had that experience kind of helps me remember that, that's a way in which I can, you know, get out of those patterns.

S: And I think that, you know, you're in this line of business. You're curious about, you know, all of this anyway, so, you know, that comes naturally to you. You're in inspired to do it and live that lifestyle. You know, when you're stuck at home and you're looking at your partner across the other end of the sofa and you're saying to them, you know, I'd like to go on a date, or, I'd like you to surprise me. You know, it actually doesn't work if it's coming from. You can say that you can go and learn five languages of love. You know, you can, understand that this takes communication, but it really is up to the individual to want to do that. And you want to do it.

F: Yeah.

S: And there are plenty of people who don't want to do it because they don't want to listen to their partner and what their needs are. So I guess that, you know, that will define whether there's longevity in the relationship. And the main thing is, as women, you know, we're financially free. We don't need to be in anything that doesn't serve us. And it's the sisterhood around us that allows us to leave a relationship that is not serving our freedom.

F: Yeah. And, you know, I think that when people come up to me and talk about their relationship struggles, I'm careful not to judge. And I'm always just paying attention to whether, despite whatever the partner has done, which could be terrible, whether they have this willingness to actually put in the work. And not only that, but that they know how to listen to their partner and they care about what their partner is feeling and going through. And, you know, I always say, like, if you have that if you have good communication, you can go from there. And like, you love each other, you can go from there. But, yeah, it's true that a lot of people, and I think especially if, like, you've been together for like a very long time, a lot of people just kind of give up in a, in a way.

S: And, you know, it's very easy to do that, to give up and start afresh, you know, considering, you know, people come to me because they're absolutely stuck. There's no way forward and they don't want to separate. There is a commitment in there, which might be the children, it might be the home, it might be the bank account or the extended family, and they want to work on it. So there's many varying degrees of why we would stay.

F: And when it comes to your clients and non-monogamous couples, what are some of the most common issues that kind of come up for them and how, how do you think that psychedelics might have helped them?

S: It's, you know, the non-monogamy world is complex. If you're in a open relationship, polyamorous relationship, you know, consensual, non-monogamous relationship, it really needs, you know, great management, consideration, care of your primary partner. Yet when we look at the work of, Jessica Fern and “Polysecure: Attachment, Trauma and Consensual Nonmonogamy”. Yeah, you know, she says that it's non hierarchical. You know, there is no such thing as a primary partner, a secondary partner that actually the primary partner is ourselves. So when I'm working with couples and, you know, he might want to have sex with someone else, you know, he's fed up with the situation at home. He doesn't want to break the terms of his relationship, but he wants to feel wanted. He wants to change the dynamic and he doesn't see why he should sacrifice himself sexually. There's a selfishness that goes with that. You know, there's a there's a generational gap there. You know, we're looking at people who might be in their 40s or 50s.

F: Right, and like married all of their lives. Growing up in a monogamous mindset is totally understandable. I feel like if I had been in that situation and all of a sudden my husband from like 20 years is like, I want to have sex with someone else. I would be like, absolutely no. You know, and I, and I come, you know, I have that curious mindset. So I totally understand what I'm saying.

S: And even if she's at that stage of I'm not that bothered about sex Anymore, which I do work with couples like that. And he's been having a lot of affairs and she's found out, you know, still there wasn't communication, there wasn't a new shift in the terms of agreement that you have. Instead there's a sense of rejection and abandonment and selfishness and you know, taking the relationship for granted, you know, the beautiful security that it provides. So, you know, those are some of the common problems. Others are helping couples to, with the language of how to approach this, giving them reading material, helping them understand about compassion, you know, the act of being happy for the other one to be happy. Which is the basis of, you know, successful monogamy, non- monogamy. And you know, in there is helping people wake up to what's inside themselves. Especially for her, if she's post menopause or she's just had children recently, for her to not feel like she is not worth anything, you know, low self esteem, vulnerable, you know, uh, that he wants to behave in a certain way and she wants, you know, she doesn't want to upset, she wants. She's in a pleasing position and she's vulnerable to really bring to light with couples how to behave like a couple. You know, there's a wonderful book called “Us: Getting Past You and Me to Build a More Loving Relationship” by Terrence Real.

F: I will link it in the show notes for the listeners.

S: It's not necessarily around polyamory, but it is, you know, how to broach this commonality of the us and to behave like that even if you need to be true to yourself.

F: Right, right. Like, working as a team. That's at least how how I see it.

S: Absolutely. Yeah.

F: Yeah, I love that. Yeah. I feel like that's, it's important to have that mindset because when issues come up, it's not like you against me, like you want to have sex with other people. I don't want you to have sex with other people. Like, it's more like, okay, you have a desire to have sex with other people. And my libido is not very high right now. How are we going to solve this? How are we going to go about this together, with respect, with communication, without taking steps, without checking in with the other person.

S: And you know, just last night I was speaking to someone where it's the other way round. You know, he's really immersed in a startup and he is working all the hours God sends and he doesn't, he's not. And he's in some ways neglecting because that's what she told me. The relationship and she feels like that they are in an open relationship. So she is having successful intimacy with other people. And that's bringing a lot of confusion into her and the relationship. Although he's off on his thing. They've been married for nine years. And what she said was soulmates, they're really good together. Yet she's having these romantic experiences which she's really enjoying and seeing a whole new side of herself. She's stopped working. She's taking a break, reconfiguring what she wants to do in her life. So she's got all the time in the world to explore, you know, herself and her sexuality. She was asking me yesterday: "What are we going to do?" And they were, they're going to do a MDMA ceremony. She didn't use the word ceremony. They want to do MDMA on Thanksgiving. You know, that's, it's punctuation in the year. And she was asking me what advice I might give her on that. And so I was telling her what, how I help couples if I'm, working with someone online, and they're doing the medicine by themselves and what I do is a file.

F: So you also work with people online. Okay, that's great to know for listeners out there.

S: Um, it is a five hour program. Sometimes if I don't feel like there's enough knowledge and safety between me and the clients, like we really trust each other, then I will ask for more touch ins. But it is a two hour. So this is what I was telling her. You know, create a two hour window the day before, or, you know, a couple of days before, and sit down and work out where you are and where you want to be and talk about that. Talk about from the I feel and own it. You know, allow your partner to respond in the way, but keep control of that two hour. You know, it needs to be moderated in that way because otherwise you just end up in the normal tailspin. Then the day of the ceremony, and that's the word that I use within the psychedelic research field we use the word mindfulness. So, you know, all of this is done with mindfulness. And on the day of the ceremony, there's a one hour section, before you dose. And it is, you know, sit with each other, create the setting.

So that the first part, the two hour thing the day before is set, you know, setting your mind frame. This is how to take psychedelics safely. So it's setting and integration. The next hour on the day of the ceremony is the setting, it's lighting the candles, it's putting the music on. It is turning up on time. It is sitting and waiting and doing these exercises that, uh, I just did in the workshop. You know, breathing with your partner, you know, uh, just some basic sitting and knowing how you are today. And again, crystallizing the intention of what you want to come out. Maybe it's better communication, maybe. Maybe it's to feel free. Maybe it is to spend more time, you know, somewhere else. And then you go into the ceremony, which if you're doing psilocybin, it might be 8 hours MDMA, you might want to redose in between. The longer you are in that space, you know, the more stuff comes up for you. And you're talking with MDMA, you're talking. You're not having sex.

F: Yeah.

S: You are going deep into this. And this is where you can do these exercises of awareness again, you know, so the ceremony starts, you take the medicine, and you might just lie and listen to the music together and wait for the impulse. That thing that makes you go, I really want to talk about this, or It makes you reach out a hand, but it is in that waiting rather than direction of the old habits.

F: I love that.

S: With psilocybin, it's different. It is. You're in your own space. You are once again not having sex. You are in your own journey, seeing what comes up from the subconscious, you know, bringing that up, you know, to give yourself one and a half hours or two hours of just being by yourself with music and a blindfold, and then you finish that day. And then the next day is a two hour integration that both of you sit down, you see, if you gained. Got the intentions that you set, which you wrote down, you know, ticking them off. If we got our intentions and we draw a line between what happened and what. The intention that we set, you know, what. What does that mean? If we got our intention, what does that really look like? And, yeah. And then mark the end of the five hours that you've, you know, dedicated to this.

F: Yeah, I love that it's worth going.

S: Away and doing it in a log cabin somewhere.

F: Yeah, I love that I'm. I'm gonna take down all those tips for a trip coming up with my partner, lovely.

S: Are you doing that trip?

F: Yeah. We rented a cabin December, we've been in that cabin before, and it's very beautiful. And actually, we've never actually we've taken MDMA in party settings. But we've never taken just the two of us at home. And yeah, from just educating myself about MDMA therapy and talking to other people who've done it, I, I, I told him, like, we should, we should do it just the two of us, you know. So, yeah, I look forward to doing that. And yeah, and I will definitely follow those guidelines that you just gave us.

S: Yeah, it's good result.

F: Yeah. Yeah, I bet. And my partner and I are in a very good place, very healthy relationship. I'm even, like, surprised because we've been together over four years, which does, might not sound like a lot in comparison with the couples that you work with, which might have been together for 25 years, 50 years, who knows, you know? But in my previous relationships, by the third, I've never had such a long relationship. But by this time, things were just, like, falling apart and we just have, like, really solid and really good communication. So, yeah, I think that whatever comes from that therapy is going to be, it's going to be great. I hope so. Yeah.

S: And, you know, this was something else I was saying to her as well. You know, if you are in an open relationship and he is off doing his business, you know, he's at midlife, he's got something to prove to himself, midlife crisis and all that, you know, how can they maintain the intimacy in that relationship when she's having better sex somewhere else? And, it is, you know, putting time aside and having very intimate moments, you know, and it might not be sex because she was, she was like, he's not really into it. You know, when we have it, it's a quickie. You know, that is not going to turn into anything else unless you build in the intimacy exercises. So whereas before, you might have, you know, just allowed the impulse of having sex, you know, instead replace it with the eye gazing, with the breathing together.

F: Yeah, yeah, I love that. And you know, when, you shared what she shared with you around feeling a little bit confusing her relationship because of the romantic feelings that she was experiencing with other people. That's something that I personally experienced as well. And yeah, I like to put this message out there when I can, that at least in my experience, it's never as threatening as we see it at the time because we come from this monogamous mindset where feelings for someone else necessarily mean that the other person is lacking, that there's something wrong with your relationship. And if there's like a big lesson that I've had in my journey. And I don't know if, uh, you could identify with that, but is that it doesn't have to be that way, that there's space for both.

And the fact that you have romantic feelings for someone else does not mean that anything's necessarily wrong with your relationship. It does happen, you know, like, that you are having quote unquote, better sex with someone else because it could be romantic or it could be sexual, right? Like you are experiencing something that you like in your relationship with someone else. And that introduces complicated feelings. But, you know, it's also understanding that every relationship's different and there's no really like, like worse, better or worse. There's just different. And that as long as you still feel like she mentioned she felt with her partner, like: "Okay, we're soulmates." If you are able to access intimacy and connection, even if it's not in a sexual way through this therapist, it can be very powerful to remind you I can have those other things. I can have sex with other people and I can be very deeply connected with my partner. Right.

S: And you know, so in, you know, with that, it. Yes, absolutely. And just because you're having sex with someone else doesn't mean that you're in the wrong relationship. Just like you just said. You know, we've been raised to think monogamously. The church, you know, guilt, sinning, you know, all of this. How to live in a free way and just have adult play.

F: So one last topic before we start to, wrap up, because I think it's maybe the biggest topic around issues around non-monogamy: jealousy. Because I mean, before I educated myself around, you know, sex and psychedelics, the first thing that came up for me was, okay from my personal experience, right? And also what I know about psychedelics, like, it helps you step out of your ego and see things in a different way. And I feel like, like even though I haven't experienced much jealousy in my relationship because as I shared before, he's monogamous, you know, when I have had that experience in other relationships, I feel like it's because I'm making a story in my head, right? Like you make a story like: "Oh, that other person must be so much better than me and a threat to our relationship and he must be doing this with her or whatever it is." And I feel like psychedelics could be a powerful tool to get out of that mindset and just see things for what they are and perhaps even see the beauty in the relationship that your partner might have with someone else.

S: There's a couple of things that I've seen going on. The first is your attachment style. If you are insecurely attached, you are going to forever feel less than. You're going to feel jealous and insecure if someone is having a really good time somewhere else.

F: Yeah. And can you quickly describe what being insecurely attached means?

S: Yeah. There's four different attachment styles. It was created by a psychologist called John Bowlby. He was an English psychologist in post Second World War. So it was a lot of this attachment theory came out of babies who had had to be sent away from their parents. You know, where was this trauma coming from? And he did these studies, clinical studies, which was covering, so mother would be in the clinical room, Psychologist was observing and the child was in the room. And the mother would do things like cover her face. And so the baby couldn't, the child couldn't see himself reflected back in the mother, you know, I love you, I adore you, everything's fine, I've got a happy face. And the insecure, insecurely attached child, you know, it starts to get anxious and nervous and disassociate and cry. There was another study done where the mother left the room. And on a securely attached child, the mother could leave the room. I mentioned this earlier. The mother could leave the room and the baby would carry on playing and you know, notice that the mother is gone. You know, it might cry for a while, but then it would be able to self pacify and return to its, you know, own natural curiosity in its play. In between there at the far end of attached styles is chaotic attachment. So these are traditional, you know, where the parent has been completely absent. So we're looking at addiction. We're looking at severe depression where there has been no safety, and security in the space held in the child reflected back at the other end is, in between is anxious attachment and then at the other end is secure attachment. Yeah. So how does that play out in relationships? How do you handle a relationship? You love someone but they are insecurely attached or the other one is securely attached. You know, and it's all about navigating these conversations, these difficult conversations, doing it. You can do that on MDMA. This conversation about your attachment style, what happened to you? As we feel empathy for the other person and you hear their trauma story, we build compassion. And we want to adapt our behavior in order because we feel compassion for the other one. So you know, that's how attachment styles play out in, you know, jealousy. Yeah, it's, It's. There's a lot in there. And it's what I mean about maturity.

F: Yeah, yeah. And it does require looking at your past and identifying whatever style you have and then just being conscious of it, you know, applying that knowledge into how you.

S: I see young couples these days, you know, maybe in their 20s, they're like: "Oh, we're polyamorous. That means we have sex with other people. And yet there is so much hurt going on." And, you know, it's become this label which needs unpacking. You know, if we're going to do it properly, if we're not going to hurt ourselves, you know, within this period of finding out who we are in our 20s, you know, you don't. Yeah, it's. There's. It's really important that you keep the conversation open.

F: Yeah, I agree. And, you know, that's why the podcast is out there as well, because I definitely think that there's a wrong way of doing non-monogamy and a right way. Just like with monogamy. Right. You know, there's healthy and unhealthy relationships in monogamy. Same with non-monogamy. But because of all of the factors and relationships that come into non- monogamy, it can be detrimental to people to go through that experience of jealousy and, feeling insecure and hurt and all of those things. Yeah, yeah.

Well, and on that note, what would you tell to someone who might be, either in their 20s or older couples, like the ones that you work with, but people who are curious about exploring this type of lifestyle, or people who are polycurious, you know.

S: There's different degrees of doing it. And when I have a couple, you know, an older couple, perhaps they've been in a relationship for a considerable time, yet both of them are thoroughly bored, not just with each other, but with life. And they're like, I will throw into the conversation, do you want to have sex with other people? And, you know, that's like a bomb to see what their reaction is. And either, you know, someone will go: "Oh." And the other one will draw back and go: "No, absolutely not." But, you know, I leave it there, and then I come back the next session and say, you know, how did that stick with you? And, you know, one thing is to go out, you know, into a sex, ah, club, for example, with your partner. You're not going to have sex with anyone else else. And it's just to introduce yourselves to this idea of desiring someone else. That you can look around the room, see amazing people that you, you know, are you aroused by, and then go in home and have amazing sex with your partner because you're stimulated by this arousal in there. Afterwards is a whole conversation of what happened to you. And, you know, jealousy comes up there, but it's a safe way of doing it.

F: Right. And that's an interesting part of jealousy. Right. It helps you kind of see your partner in a different lens because you see how they are desirable to other people and you're like: "Oh, okay, one second. Then I should be also desiring them, right? Because I might lose them." So, yeah. So in a way, I know that we normally frame jealousy as something negative, but in a way, a little bit of jealousy can be very healthy. And I'm glad that you brought up, you know, going to a play party without playing with other people. But, yeah, just this idea that there's ways to play an aroused desire that do not involve being non-monogamous, necessarily. Is there anything else that you would like to add before we wrap up?

S: I just think it's really important for all of us, all genders now, to put ourselves first in the best possible way. You know, to stop being a people pleaser, to stop, you know, dampening down who you really want to be. You know, when we look at the timeline of what on earth is happening with humanity and the evolution of society and the planet, now is your time to live in the present moment to be absolutely authentic with yourself and not be in denial. If you are jealous, tell your partner.

You know, don't be worried about putting them off because you don't want to appear too needy or too clingy. That's not the point. It is. You know, you did that. It made me. I felt.

F: Yeah.

S: And own it and talk about it. And in there, you have an authentic relationship.

F: Yeah, I love that, yeah. And as I mentioned before, you can just say, I just feel this way. This might not be true. That's also something that I've experienced with my partner. I start talking about how I feel and he might get a little bit defensive. And I have to make clear, like, this is just a story that I'm making in my head, but that's not necessarily their reality. But it helps coming from a place of trying to understand one another, as opposed to, you did this, you should be doing something different.

S: All partnerships and relationships thrive better when we see it as a sacred union. You know, whether that's in our teens, our 20s, you know, that it is conscious connection that is, it is intentional living. When we weave that into not only our own lives, but then into the relationship with others, you know, we have an expectation to be treated like that as well. And we know that people who live intentionally do better. You know, that people who live with consideration of others and consciously, you know, their energy field is considerate towards other people. So bringing that language in as well.

F: Yeah, yeah, I love that. Very last question because it relates to what you're sharing. So I love the idea of being honest to, oneself and one's desires and one wants, needs. But I mean, and we've explored this throughout the conversation, but what actually happens when, when you are honest about that and that's not what your partner wants. Right. Like, and I don't mean that as in, like, you want to be non- monogamous and your partner monogamous, because that can work as, my relationship exemplifies, but more like I don't want you to be non- monogamous, but you want to be non-monogamous. Non- monogamous. Yeah.

S: In there is a long, facilitated conversation of why, you know, there is an attachment going on there. It is there's a codependency going on there. You are not allowing your partner to live with freedom within the relationship. If you can't, if that's not something, the anxiety of that, if that's not something you want to live with with, then that's a whole other conversation about, you know, being kind and good to yourself.

F: Right. Yeah. Sometimes, you know, sometimes it might be breaking up, sometimes it might be rearranging the relationship. But I wholeheartedly agree with that message of just doing what feels right to you and really, um, going deep and honoring that, because otherwise you are doing a disservice even to your partner.

S: Yeah, absolutely.

F: Yeah. I love that. Well, Sarah, thank you so much. This has been really, truly wonderful. I really appreciate you.

S: Wonderful. Thank you so much.