Lorena: She mentioned to me that there's someone that she, like, might go on a date with or have some energy with. And so I'm at Aviva's show and I meet this person JD and I hit it off immediately with them. I was like: "Oh, this person is great. Super nice, really thoughtful." We have, like, similar vibes. What a cool new friend. Awesome. Like, Aviva is such great people, you know, and we had this, like, deep dive conversation.

JD: This was our first time, like, with me intentionally going out to show up for Aviva in a: "Could this be a date way?" it was actually the day of our first kiss as well. Yeah, was this so cute day of our first kiss. So really was just happy to meet someone else at this new space that I was invited into and turned out to be Aviva's other partner.

Fernanda: Hi, everyone. Welcome to Polycurious. I am Fer, your host. Today's episode is really unique. For the first time in this podcast, I had the opportunity to interview Metamours and their common partner. For those of you who might not know what a metamour is, is basically your partner's partners. And especially at the beginning, for a lot of people, it can feel nerve wracking to meet someone that your partner is dating. But as today example shows, you might be surprised to find out that you actually really like them and can become friends with them and even hang out with them and your partner.

And if that is not the case for you, that is totally fine as well. And we do talk about that in this episode too. But I do think it's important to at least acknowledge other people in the dynamic with your partner. And hopefully today's episode will help you reflect on how you can better do that.

So today's guests are Aviva and her partners, JD and Lorena. And even though Aviva and Lorena were dating first, JD has become Aviva's nesting partner. They're actually about to move in together this summer. And today we will chat about that transition and how even though it was a little difficult for Lorena to face Aviva becoming primaries with someone else, she was also very happy for Aviva and JD. Someone she really liked and knew also really cared for Aviva. And, today's episode felt really representative of what Polycurious stands for because of the things we talked about.

We talked about liberation and freedom while being very clear about feelings and expectations and also setting boundaries. We talk about getting comfortable with having relationships take whatever shape or form they're supposed to take. And with relationships changing as opposed to trying to fit them into a box. More than anything, I was left feeling warm from this conversation, as I could really tell. There is so much love and respect between the three of them. And I hope that regardless of whether you are close with the people your partner is dating, you can take the way they relate as, an inspiration in your journey. As usual, I would like to take a moment to remind you that I am taking clients for relationship coaching. Our first session is for free. So if you might be curious about how I might be able to help you or help you and your partner or partners, reach out to my Instagram Polycurious Podcast or to my email polycuriouspodcast@gmail.com okay, guys, can't wait for you to meet Aviva, JD and Lorena. So here's my interview with the three of them.

F: Welcome to Polycurious. This is the first interview in which we have three people. Also the first interview in which I'm interviewing meatmours, which I find super interesting and I'm sure people will also find fascinating. We were connected through common friends, as it happens, with many of the guests in my podcast. And then it turns out that Aviva and I are going to share a cabin for upcoming festival, which we found out after we decided we were going to do this interview. So that's also really cool that we get this opportunity to get to know each other better even before that happens. So, yeah, I'll just give you guys an opportunity to kind of introduce yourselves to the audience.

A: Cool. Well, I guess I could go first. My name is Aviva and I use she or they pronouns, and I am a designer and musician living here in Brooklyn. And I've been solo poly since 2021. And before that I was in, like, a more monogamish relationship, I guess I would say, for four years. Sometimes open, sometimes not. But not really open to, like, romantic connections. Mostly just physical and kind of fun exploratory, but since that breakup, I was really focused on exploring what it would mean to be actually polyamorous and allow myself to have multiple relationships that could be of whatever sort they turned out to be. That was around the time when I met Lorena, and then about a year into that, also met JD and yeah, we'll talk more about that. But that's like a little intro to who I am.

JD: My name is JD. I use they, them pronouns. I identify as gender queer, masculine, of center. My poly journey first started in a bit of a unethical way since 2010, where my partner and I were both aware that we were cheating on each other. And that kind of didn't have the words for what poly meant for either of us. And so over time and over different dating experiences, kind of learned about setting up those boundaries and expectations. So that's been since 2010, currently consistently dating Aviva. That's actually who my nesting partner is looking forward to moving in this upcoming summer and then have that freedom to explore and dating other people. Like, I actually have another date coming up this Friday, which is something new for us to explore in our relationship, but someone who's not actively seeking out other relationships just because I'm also a very busy person. And being poly, you need a really good calendar and scheduling system.

F: Yeah, for sure, for sure.

L: Hi, I'm Lorena and, woman queer, living in Brooklyn too working in the event and operations space. And been dating Aviva for almost two years. Joyfully metamours with JD and I also have another partner as well and also enjoy going on dates. But my poly adventure started maybe seven or eight years ago. Classic tale of a young 20. Something goes to Burning Man and has their mind, like, explode with different opportunities and information and ways of being. But I've gone through different looks and styles, had a monogamish relationship. I've been largely, solo poly now for about five years, joyfully exploring all the ways that poly makes me learn about myself in the world more.

F: Amazing. I love that. Oh, my God, where do I go? There's three options now. Well, I guess since, Aviva and Lorena met first, why don't you tell me about how you guys met and kind of where you were at in your journey.

A: So I was actually in my prior relationship when we started dating. My ex actually, like, dropped me off for our first date. But we reconnected. And I say reconnected because it turns out we had met like a year and a half or something prior. I think it was around then.

L: Some beach trip where we were all in the same car.

A: Yeah, we have a mutual. A very dear mutual friend. And so we met up. We met at an outside five rhythms dance class. Like conscious dance. And I think I noticed you while we were there was.

L: No, I definitely noticed you when we were dancing. Yeah, for sure.

A: And afterwards you were like, with my friend and I was like: "Oh, who's that person?" And then we met and I thought you were like so enthusiastic about like meeting me. And I was like: "Maybe this person's just really friendly, but also like, she's really hot. Like who is this person?" And then we ended up exchanging information and like later on messaging about lik: “We should, oh, we should like meet up.” Oh, it turns out we know each other, we have all these common friends. I was in that moment actively trying to date more femme people because I, generally speaking, have dated more masculine. Masculine of center people. And that's like where my, just kind of like general attraction lies. But I had never really explored, trying to actually date rather than just like hook up with other femme people. And I was like, this is a really good opportunity to like explore this. And so I messaged Lorena and was like, what if our hangout was like, it was actually a date, how would you feel about that?

L And I died.

A: That was my smooth move.

F: I like that approach. Like you don't even have to, you know, wait until the day to try to kiss them or whatever. Like you already kind of pre established like, I like you. Like, do we want to actually date as opposed to just have this to be a friend thing.

A: Mhm.

F: Yeah.

L: I was really trying to be clear for everybody. The clarity was very sexy. Yes.

A: Yeah, it was. You were like, yes, absolutely. And I had conferred with the friend that we both had where I was like: "Is Lorena queer?" And they were like: "Yes." And I was like: "Do you think she's interested in me?" And he was like, they were like: "Why wouldn't she be?" Or something. And I was like: "Oh, thank you." And then that gave me the confidence to ask in a more bold way, which I'm glad I did because it worked. Yeah, my, my relationship that I was in then ended not too long after that. More for, like life path reasons. I want to have a family at some point. And that was not something that they really envisioned for themselves. So that ended. But Lorena and I. Lorena was there like through that breakup and everything, which was like really nice to have like another person during that time to kind of lean on, but not lean on too much.

We weren't dating like super heavily yet, but it was nice to have that bridge.

L: Yeah. Because I think you guys separated maybe a month into us dating.

F: Mhm. Well, maybe Lorena can tell us a little bit about two years ago. Right. So I'm sure a lot has changed. So like. Yeah. How did you go from meeting to your relationship developing and then eventually JD coming into the picture as well.

L: Yeah. I mean, that was a fun summer. That was, like, a vaccination summer. It was like, 2021. Right. So all of a sudden, New York, like, erupted. I think was really powerful to be starting this very, like, playful, fun, queer relationship. And, for myself, too, I'm a pansexual, and it was really interesting. I actually met Aviva, my other partner, in the same week.

F: Your other partner is also called Aviva?

L: No, no, no. My. No, he's called Josh. I met both of my partners in those in the same week. It was just, like, you know, like. And I hadn't really dated in three years prior to that point. And so all of a sudden, it was just this, like, big shift for me personally. But was I think, really significant about that. Summer was, like, really being expansive and playful and joyful with Aviva and going out and dancing and exploring and realizing we have, like, so many things in common and just, like, having this, like, delight. And also you know, part of the reason I was like, I'm not dating anyone is I went through this, like, really painful breakup, and I was just like, I'm never dating again. Crazy. But anyways, that was my thought space for, like, three years. And so it was, like, very healing for me. But it was also, like, this great awareness of, like, I really wanted to, like, support Aviva and, like, her like, biggest expansion and exploration and just, like, joy. Like, I feel like we were both on this, like, similar but different path of just, like, expanding into the fuller versions of ourselves and, like, seen and held and delighted and supported in that. Also supporting in the poly adventure and, like, hearing Aviva really wanting to do that. And when her relationship ended, knowing that, like, heartbreak is intense, but, like, a really important piece of my heartbreak is, like, going out and just, like, exploring and having fun and going on dates and, you know, in, like, both of us dating other people and having challenges with some other people and, like, confiding each other and, like, what we do about these other partners or I'm having big feels, and it was just really powerful to have someone that I felt like who was on my team and also, like, in my team for personal growth. I feel like our core values are very aligned in, like, supporting one another and, like, liberation and, like, expansion and growth and seeking understanding as opposed to being right. Really wanting each other's. To live each other's best lives. Like, I feel like I tell that to be a lot. It's like, I just want you to live your best life. And that might be uncomfortable sometimes. Right. And so I think we've done a really good job navigating a lot of different pieces. Yeah. That first year, you know, I feel like some just like, quick highlights is like, I feel like super honored to have gone to, like, Thanksgiving at Aviva's family. That was like, extremely beautiful. For me personally as like, a person with a lot of family stuff, doing Jewish Christmas was like, really wonderful and powerful and theater. And I make the joke that I was more culturally Jewish that year than Christian, which was. Is different. But it was like this really beautiful, different energy in my life.

And coming to Aviva released an album and it was her release party in June. The next year, she mentioned to me that there's someone that she, like, might go on a date with or have some energy with or. I don't remember exactly the framing, but she told me the name and I was like: "Okay, cool. Like, you know, whatever. Great. They're gonna be at the party. Delight. You're getting more support." I'm terrible with names, so I immediately forgot this person's name. And so I'm at Aviva's, show and I meet this person, JD and I hit it off immediately with them. I was like: "Oh, this person is great. Super nice, really thoughtful. We have, like, similar vibes." I was like: "Oh, what a cool new friend. Awesome." Like, Aviva is such great people. You know, we had this like, deep dive conversation.

A: Mhm.

L: Talking about.

F: And JD, you knew who Lorena was.

JD: I'm also terrible with names, so I think I'd been reminded soon before. But this is also the first. So Aviva and I have had some mutual friends in the past, but this was our first time, like, with me intentionally going out to show up for Aviva in a could this be a date way? It was actually the day of our first kiss as well. Yeah. Was this so cute day of our first kiss, but going into it, so, like, I think I knew your name but had no face. Not much context of back relationship and like, just getting to know of even this newer, expansive capacity. So really was just happy to meet someone else at this new space that I was invited into and turned out to be Aviva's other partner.

L: This is so cute. I didn't know that part. So, yeah, Aviva's playing. I'm like, chatting it up with JD. I'm like: "Wow, this is great." Because Aviva rolls with a crew. She has like a tight knit group of friends.

JD: Yes.

L: Who are wonderful. And there's one point where Aviva's not playing. She comes up, and I forget what the thing was. There was some.

A: It was a little stressed.

L: There was a little stress and...

JD: Mhm.

L: JD And I basically, like, tag team being the support team for Aviva.

JD: And I was like, yeah, motivational pep talk. Like, we had it together. And like, ye. Yeah.

L: And you just, like, nailed. You're like, okay, I see your love languages accessor. And you just, like, read me. And I was like, okay, like, I see you. And so it was this very funny thing. And at the end, I was heading out, and I was like: Aviva, that person's so great." And he was like: "Yeah, that's that person I was talking to you about." I was like: "Oh, my God, go date them. They are amazing. What?" I didn't know. I'm so embarrassed. Like, I just, like.

JD: And I didn't know I had such your blessing at the time either. I didn't hear this story till, like, weeks later too of, like, the backstories for each of us, I think. And you're hearing about it now for some of it.

L: Funny.

F: That's amazing. I love that. I love that story. That's really cute. But it does sound like at that point, you both were comfortable with meeting your partner's partners, Right? I don't know if at that point, Aviva, and Lorena, if you considered yourselves primaries or if you weren't using that language.

L: Yes. For me, personally, I've been, like, very centered in solo poly up until really recently that I'm like, do I want to live with a partner? I've never lived with a partner. I'm in my mid-30s, and that's just, like, never been on my to do list. Kids has been, like, reopened, honestly, because of Aviva on our first date, which I get because of why you were.

You were transitioning from your last relationship for this really important purpose, and you're like, do you want to have kids someday? I was like: "Yeah, I can be open to that."

F: If that is [...] you.

JD: It also came out within the first, like, two days with Aviva and I as well. Like, Aviva came with a set plan of here's my expectations and desires, which I appreciated.

L: I appreciated.

JD: Yeah. Don't waste your time.

L: Yes.

A: I mean, yeah, I don't think in the past I would have. I could have been that sure. But, like, I had just been in a long relationship that was really wonderful in a lot of ways, but, like, this really big thing that we kind of kept tabling this conversation. And I had kind of told myself by the time that I was 30, I would, like, needed to be with somebody that wanted to do that. So I did feel like going into that dating summer, because we both were. Went on a lot of dates that summer. And I remember kind of, I had a sense with some people where I was like, if this is someone that I could possibly see a more like, a future with at all, I'm going to bring it up kind of just so that, you know, this is what I'm looking for. If that's not what you're looking for, that's totally cool. We can still date. We can have fun. But so that you know.

F: And so that you know as...

A: Well. Yeah, exactly. So I know. So that I know not to invest too much in something that, you know. So it was really to protect myself. I was, like, trying to be really clear about expectations for other people and for myself and really clear about, like, my capacity. And I actually, for the most part, like, I'm really proud of myself for that time, because I'd never been able to be so clear with myself or so clear with other people. And it felt so refreshing to, like, know.

F: Yeah, I love that. I think coming with clear expectations and kind of intentions is always a good advice. And on that, I'm curious because, you know you guys are obviously super advanced on the conversion aspect of things. How did you get there? Or have you always been compressive? Or do you have any tips for people?

L: I feel like I've talked a lot, but I would love to speak because I think you and I are actually a little different on this. I totally experienced jealousy. Like, I am a human that has all of the human emotions, and so I definitely felt jealous at moments from with JD like, definitely. But that. That I feel like jealousy is a directional emotion. It directs you to something that's really important to address.

And so for me, I was just like: "Oh, am I an important person in Aviva's life? Because I'm feeling these feels of, like, my value system is, like, I'm stoked" She's. She has this new relationship where she's getting treated with great respect and joy and love and, like, being empowered. And that's super important to me. Critical. But there's, like, crunchy moments where it's like: "Oh, but, okay, I. and so I was like, hey, can you validate or just share, like, where I am in your life?" Like, am I important? And that's, like, I feel like if it's like, oh, my God, you're super important to me. And that's like, when I hear that, I'm just like, okay, yeah, okay, I can be back centered my values. I think when things became more serious and significant, there's the moment of, like, okay, am I a snack or am I like. Which is fine. You know, again, it's like, I just want to know.

And so it's been, like, powerful to feel clarity. And I also feel extremely welcomed and supported by JD. I feel like we are very much teammates in, like, a really real way. And so, like, I don't experience jealousy at this point with JD. I feel, like, super stoked whenever I see them. I feel like I have a total friend and ally.

JD: Even ally. And, like, doing secret surprises for Aviva. Like Aviva went away on a trip. And so we, like, surprise Aviva with painting this entire apartment that we're recording in right now. So, like, that was something that I knew Aviva wanted done. And I was like, let me know. This person has the skillset. Lorena is just one of those amazing people that I also want to get to know outside of Aviva, just because I like them as a person. And, like, I do have so much love for Lorena, so. And I think that's also me coming in as the last partner in this kind of polycule and a person who doesn't experience jealousy in that way. But I do think that my style of having more kitchen table polyamory, if I wanna know my partner's partners, I wanna get to know them. Cause to me, that makes me not jealous. Cause it's not a secret. I get to know the person. This is another person that cares about the person I care so much about. So why can't I extend my love to them as well? And that it's that team aspect of, I know I can't show up every day to be my best self. I'm going to do my best, but there are gonna be some things that maybe are not my strengths. But that doesn't mean that there's not someone else on the team where that is their strength. Like, I always joke that, like, Aviva enjoys vegetarian food. I have nothing against it, but it's not my favorite thing. But I love that Lorena can go to any restaurant that is vegan or vegetarian. And I know that Aviva will get to experience that to its fullest instead of wondering, what are you going to eat on the menu? So it's like picking up other people's strengths and like weaknesses where you have a team to support.

L: Totally, totally.

A: I think, like, yeah. I also. Historically, I think I'm like kind of a like jealous person actually and or just like. And I know. Okay. Also shout out to the book “Polysecure: Attachment, Trauma and Consensual Nonmonogamy” Like so good. I really feel like after reading that it helped me understand a lot of things. Like I mean just basically about attachment theory in the first place, but like then also practically walking through different, like how to work through certain things. So I, in my like post that four year breakup was like really, really intentionally trying to work on my feelings of jealousy and trying to work on conversion. And so those feelings definitely came up. But I think that in that time it was easier for me to. Because Iwas. Both of us were being. Lorena and I were both being very exploratory and not even though I was like, I want to have kids someday. I wasn't like, we need to like lock it down right now.

We were both like, let's. As she mentioned, like allowing ourselves to like really be expansive and be really like. I'd never been in a relationship before that was just like so easeful and as spacious as it was while still like, yeah, like becoming very, like not dependent in a like needing, but like reliant on each other in a really beautiful way. But I think also because I was like dating around and had like a lot of. I was like having a lot of fun that summer. I wasn't really experiencing jealousy because I was. Since I was seeing so many people. I was like, I didn't care if my other partners were also seeing people as long as like we were also seeing each other. I was like, that's fine. But I remember also like, you know, Lorena and I have had a lot of talks about like, what kind of future we could envision and like we had a lot of similarity. Similar.

Actually. I think it's funny, all three of us have. When we have talked about what do we see in the future individually, have each been like: "Wow, it would actually be amazing. What if we all lived in a house and there were kids, but there were also partners or metamours." There's this bigger family structure and we're all supporting each other. And I don't know if that's possible, but what if it was possible and we all had that thought, like, what could that be? Like kind of separately. And I think that like a year into Lorena and my relationship, we were like, both really open to being primary partners. If that, like, was where it led. And I remember us having many conversations being, like, kind of, like, wanting it to be that, but also feeling like we both were maybe missing something, like, that could be maybe filled by another person as well. And not like, to be ending what we had, but still being open to others and open to more and really wanting that for each other. I remember really being like, I wish I could be that fully for you, and you saying something similar.

So there was like a I remember times of a sadness in that. Not that everything works so beautifully, but there's certain things that, you know, you just are also still looking for. And so I remember feeling sad. We were both like, it would be so amazing if, like, this was what it was. But when I started dating JD, things got serious kind of fast. And like. Or it just like, you know, it was very kind of Gay U-Haul situation where you're just like,

JD: As queer couples often do.

A: There's a, like, it comes from, like, lesbian culture, but, like, you hauling it is like, oh, you meet and then, like, you, like, move in together like a week later. It's like lesbian relationships queer relationships move. Really?

JD: Yeah. Like, what's the second date? It's a move in party or something like that.

F: That's so funny because in, like, male gay relationship, it feels like it's the opposite, right?

A: No. Super non committal. No, it's like, yeah, like, for, like, assigned female at birth people, it's like, very. But I think that, like, that was. That was something that I was feeling when I was like: "Oh, like, maybe, like, I could see these things, like, these additional things with JD." And I remember feeling, like, nervous about talking to Lorena about it. Nervous about being, like, you know, once things were kind of progressing, being like, how do. How do. What does this mean for our relationship? Yeah. Feeling conflicted. Not wanting to feel like I was sidelining Lorena. And I think we've all talked a lot about, like, what do these different kinds of relationships mean and how do we define them and how can they, like, be together, too? So it's not always super easy. It was, like, definitely, like, hard conversations as well. But I think the core of, like, wanting each other to, like, be. I remember when we had that conversation one of the times, and you were like, things might feel hard. And I do feel things sometimes, but, like, I just really want you to be happy. And, like, whatever makes you happy will make me happy. We had several of these conversations, but I think this was where I was saying that I, like, I could see things, like, becoming more serious with JD and, like, and I admitted that I was feeling, like, I think, nervous to talk about it. And the really, like, one thing that is just really crazy about Lorena and I is that every time I've ever felt something that I was nervous about or, like, wanted to talk about and was kind of like, oh, I don't know, on the other side of it, every time we have that conversation, she's like: "I was feeling the same way, and, like,

I was just waiting to talk to you about it and wasn't sure." And there's, like, a synergy there with our, like, mental and emotional state, which I think is really, really special. So I think moving on from that, I felt like, kind of like I was making sure that you knew that you still had a really important place in my life. And our relationship actually wasn't changing necessarily. Although I remember we did talk about, like, you know, like, with family stuff, like, how do we decide, like, who is coming home to family things, or how do we, like, you know, how do we go from there? Like, certain things that are traditional.

F: How do you make those decisions? Now?

A: That's it.

JD: I mean, we both got to meet Aviva's parents together at another one of Aviva's shows, and it was actually a great experience. Ended up taking selfies with Aviva's parents together. I think I want to say they've come a long way with this, too. It's definitely been conversations with a lot of. With Aviva, and then I've been able to be a part of some of them in the room, too. But I think at first it was challenging for that, but, I mean, you can speak more to your family.

A: Well, I think another thing I'll say is that JD has always just been so incredibly respectful of our relationship first and any of my relationships that JD was walking into, because I think they have this feeling of, well, I'm the newest, even though they've become, like, a nesting partner and have now take up a lot of space in my life and my relationships in, like, a really beautiful way that I'm happy about, not in, like, a negative way, but you've always been so deferential to my other relationships in this way that you just, like, really didn't want to step on other people's toes. So I feel like you would always, like, really make sure, like, is that going to be okay with Lorena? Or, like, have you talked to, like, I think we all try to make ask the questions around, like, what do. What does the other one think about that or know or how do they feel? Or how do we still, like, make sure that there's, like, respect? So, like, last summer, I brought Lorena to a wedding with me in Italy. And JD And I had already met at that point and were dating. But, like, Lorena and I had this big, like, European trip planned together. We went on it and we maybe, like, message a little bit. I don't even know, actually, at that point.

JD: I don't think we really talked that much. Cause, like, you were away, you were traveling, you had lots to do.

L: Yeah. I love that you brought up the show. I thought that was one of the cutest moments. And shout out to your parents for really just, like, rolling with everything.

A: Yeah, they do. Yeah, my parents do. They are, like, kind of generally supportive in, like, a, ah, do what makes you happy kind of way. They do have, at this point, they have reservations about, like, what getting married means if you're polyamorous. Like, their concept of polyamory is still, like, swingers that, like, you know, and, like, merit in their mind, like, these marriages that are, like, failing and trying to, like, just, you know, cheat basically, with. Without calling it cheating. And, but the thing is that they're very open to the conversation, which I think is really, like, I feel grateful. I think I've, like, taken them on kind of a wild ride the last few years of, like, my queerness and, like, you know, polyamory and all that.

F: Because not only the queerness, but then polyamory and then having two partners, you know.

A: Yeah, exactly.

JD: And I've myself being one of those. A genderqueer trans person who uses they them pronouns. So, like, let's keep going a step further.

A: Yeah, like, getting used to using they them pronouns and, like. But the thing about them is that, like, they do. Not that they don't have strong opinions, but I think they've just come a really long way in, like, at least having the conversation. So the last time we had this conversation, they said something to the effect of, like, if you guys, like, you know, have a wedding, well, we would be there. We'll support you. But, like, in our eyes, it's not really like, a real marriage if they're still at the relationships. And we were like, we can see why you think that that makes sense for the way that you are. But we always try to talk about this, like, what it means to us and this vision of, like, just, like, stronger community bonds and that, like, it doesn't just mean you're, like, going around, like, having sex with a ton of people all the time. Like, and I think when we really talk about the family aspect of it and the visions, they're like, that makes sense. Like, that sounds nice to, like, have more support or to have, like.

JD: And like, you come from a background where community is really important and, like, family is very close ties. Whereas for me, I'm not very connected to my birth family. So for me, being polyamorous is also a way that I get an extended family and community through my partners and people that I love who are a part of my life and they don't have to be blood related. So I think that's another important part for me about appreciating that aspect of being poly.

F: Yeah. And I think it's something that we're living as a society, right, because we've gone, like, so individualistic to the extreme that we're finding ways to find community. And sometimes that involves polyamory. Right. But, you know, for people who are used to the other version of community or just to, like, not have a community, it's so. It's. It's strange, but it's awesome that, you know, your parents are open to it and that it sounds like even though there might have been some, you know, friction, something that I find really inspiring is that you each are like, you know, looking out for one another and not only looking out for your partner, but also looking out for your partner's partner. And I think that's something that sometimes gets missed. Like, people might care about how their actions affect the person that they're dating, but they don't always think like: "Oh, how about this other person?" Right?

And I think that's really important. And also just being like, I want you to be happy. And I do feel a little bit of jealousy or a little bit of, like, uncomfortability or it's a little hard for me to feel like, maybe, I'm not, like the main person at this moment, but I'm also happy for you. Right. And, I also want you to be happy and fulfilled, and you haven't done anything wrong for having these feelings. Right. And that's so hard for people to do because they put their ego with what they're feeling, and then it becomes about them not being enough for their partner, as opposed to just things evolving in a different way. And you can't really explain. I mean, you guys were talking about how you had these conversations of like, okay, maybe we should be primaries or, like, we wish we could, but there was, like, something that just didn't click.

And it doesn't have to do with, you know, you guys not loving each other, like, you still love each other. It's just that it just didn't work, you know? And it's just you can't force those things. It's just you have to let relationships evolve in the way that they should evolve and have these conversations. But they're difficult conversations to have, for sure.

L: Yeah. I think one thing for me is getting off the escalator of relationships, which. There's a whole book on that. But releasing that the goal of a relationship is to get married and have kids and live together and spend the rest of your life together. Releasing that. I love my relationship with Aviva. I love Aviva. I have an amazing relationship with them, and I don't feel any less or lack in that. We're not nesting partners. I think giving it the space to be what it is and being enthralled with that is a really powerful gift of polyamory, which I think is I really appreciate.

A: Yeah, I think I feel incredibly lucky. And not to say that this is easy. It definitely takes a lot of work and communication, but I also just think the temperaments and personalities of the three of us, specifically, we are just blessed in that we found each other because, I think we've all had relationships that. That are not this way. And, another thing, which this is just for me personally, so I don't know how helpful this will be to other people.

But something that I've realized, at least for myself, is that, because I also consider myself pansexual. And I've dated a lot of CIS men, and I've dated all kinds of queer people. The kinds of communication that I've been able to have with assigned female birth people has been really different for me. So I think, like, in this, I think there's something about being, for me at least, being social, all of us being socialized as girls and as women first. Whether or not that. Whether that's our actual identities or not, there's something there about the, like, communication and, like, attention to detail of other people's feelings and emotions that, of course, men can be incredibly empathetic as well. I'm not saying that, but just for me, there's, like, an ease of communication that I didn't really experience in my other relationships, and that's just me personally.

F: Yeah, no, I agree. I think it's, as you Said, like, men are not socialized to express their feelings and be thinking about other people and caring about other people. So I'm sure that plays a role. I also agree with you that it's also a personality thing. Right. So I also, as I was saying, like, it's amazing that you guys are able to do this and not everyone is able to do that. I'm not passing judgment on people who aren't able to do this, because that's probably the majority of people. So, you know, if you are listening to this and this feels, like, overwhelming or like you probably couldn't do that, and you do let your ego get in the way sometimes, that's human, and that's fine, too. But just having examples of how there's an alternative and how, again, you can live with both, like, the uncomfortable feelings and also being happy with your. For your partner and also trying to make an effort to acknowledge everyone in the dynamic, I think it's super, super valuable. But, yeah, I'm curious to hear, JD what your experience was like, because we've heard a lot from them. I mean, sounds like from the little I've heard, you don't experience as much jealousy. But yeah, just curious to hear how that was for you to kind of enter into this dynamic.

JD: Yeah. I mean, and to touch base on something you were just saying, too. I think kind of a monogamous mindset is like a yes, but, like, when someone comes to you with, this is happening. This is how I'm feeling. And you're like, yes, but this is how I'm feeling, my feelings kind of take over that conversation or maybe cloud my judgment of how I can proceed in that. But more of a poly mindset might be a yes. And so, yes, and I hear what you're saying, and I can validate your emotions and recognize what you're feeling. This is how I'm feeling, too. But recognizing there's a third person or fourth or fifth that's present in this, that's a part of that relationship. So even just adjusting our thinking when responding to jealousy or to when hard conversations come up and maybe taking a moment to be like,: "Thank you for, like, sharing that with me. Like, I'm having a really hard time with that right now, but can we check back in on that tomorrow? I'm not upset. I just need some time to really think about what that means for me, how I'm feeling, and taking that time to be able to effectively respond instead of react in that moment." Because your first feeling might be like: "Oh, I'm getting jealous." And then if you sit with that, it's: "Oh, no, I'm actually kind of hurt because you're telling me you're going on a date with this person to a museum I really wanted to go to. So I'm hurt that that person isn't me. It's not that I'm jealous that you're going with someone else. So maybe can we discuss, like, is there something we can do together that will help validate me and like you were saying, like, validate my space within this relationship?"

F: Yeah. Or can you go to another museum?

A: Exactly.

JD: Or can the three of us go together? That's something else too. Like, can we negotiate this? Because nothing is also set in stone. And I think that's another really important thing to consider is every day can be a conversation and a communication. You want to reassess those boundaries. You want to see, does this still feel right for me now, and does that still feel good in a month? If there's new partners involved, how does that work with their boundaries? Are there unrealistic expectations that someone in that polycule might have? Such as, these are all the things that are off limits, and maybe that doesn't really go with someone else's boundaries or their wants or desires. So being able to navigate and negotiate that, even if you're not able to all sit at the table together, but to recognize that someone else's voice is in the room, even if they're not physically in the room.

F: Yeah, for sure.

A: And also, like the agreements that you have in the relationship, like when we go on a date, like, how many details do you want after? And also making sure that the other person involved is like, okay with those details. I think sometimes, like, especially if you're in like a primary partnership and one person goes on a date and they have some sort of especially like, sexual experience with someone else, they might come back and if their partner's okay with, like: "Oh, I want all the details." And you guys are talking about the sex that you had.

That person that you had sex with maybe wouldn't feel comfortable with those details being shared with this other person. So making sure that, like, I feel like we all, like when we're having these, you know, socially, like, first dates, or even before the date being like, what is your, like, how many other partners do you have? If you have other partners, what kind of relationships are they? Like, do you have any boundaries? What are your really understanding that up front? And then like an example would be Like, I've gone on a date and been like, I'm not really sure what's going to, like, happen on this date. Like, we might have sex, we might not. I'm not really sure I want to feel it out. And JD might be like, or, you have said, like, if you do, like, I'll want to know. You know, you don't have to, like, call me right after. But, like, the next time we talk, maybe don't wait till, like, the end of the conversation, like, let me know, like, sooner rather than later. But you don't need to, like, you know, call me, like, right after you come or something.

JD: Because, like, I want. I want those moments to happen with or without me. I don't want that to be the: "Oh, this just happened. I have to tell my partner." I want them to be able, be present, to experience that. But for me, it's like, the longer you don't share, it's because there's something you're keeping from me. And I'm also someone who's open to hearing all those details but wanting to respect other person's boundaries. So I'll kind of be like: "Oh, you're going out with someone. Like, here's the bare minimum of what I would like to know." If they're comfortable with you sharing more. I'd love to hear as much as you feel comfortable sharing too. And then, like, my boundaries are also, like, we're in a polycule. We are with partners who have other partners. So also, what is their sexual health status? Are we taking precautions because you're not protecting just yourself, but the extension of people that you're also caring for? So, like, are you having those conversations? And if you can't trust your partner to know they're having those conversations, then it's one of, are you really at a point where you're ready to be accepted? Expanding that if you can't have honest communication about what other things might be taking place when you're not in the room, if you're not open to hearing it.

F: Yeah, yeah. I, like the point about saying, also, you know, this might happen, this might not. How much would you like to know all of that? Because I feel like when I started dating other people, there were a couple of instances it wasn't even sex, but it was like, I thought it was going to be a friend date. And then we ended up kissing and my partner wasn't happy. Not that I kissed this person, but that I said that I wouldn't. And then I went and did It. So, like, for me, that was a lesson. Like, okay, I can say I might or I might not. I'm not sure. Yeah, those are all great tips. But, yeah, if you'd like to talk about your experience, coming into Aviva's and Lorena's life.

A: JD is great at giving advice, but maybe he doesn't love talking about themselves.

JD: I mean, I'm open to it. I just have to have a really strong question to know where to start. I mean, it's been wonderful coming into this. So Aviva's also kind of like, started dating new people since we've been together, and, like, some of those relationships have ended, or there's other people that are expansively a part of this relationship. So I think I've been really honored to get to know Lorena as such an integral part of that. Being also the longest partner that Aviva's been with. So, like, for me, that's been really important to build that relationship and is someone who, like, I desire and want to have in my life for the future. Like, not that I foresee even I breaking up, but, like, should we ever. Like, I would still want to be in your life, too. Like, I hope that's on the table, but of course, that's not what we're looking for. But it's also, like, Lorena is a metamour and someone who I have so much love for, but in this platonic way as well, of knowing. Like, we feel like family. We have that support for someone else in our lives that we care so much about, but that it doesn't always have to be. Some people are thinking, if there's three people involved, you're going to end up having a threesome. And that's not always the case. I don't know, 20 years from now, but at least as it stands now, like, that's not where this is going in my.

A: The gray area, you know? The gray area.

JD: Yes.

A: As of now.

JD: Yeah.

F: Yeah. You guys keep referring to your polycule. So for people who might not really know what that is, what does that mean for you?

A: Do you want to answer, JD? So, I mean, a polycule for people that don't know or don't know that phrase. It means, like, you and your partners and your partner's partners. So, like, the people that are in partnership with each other and connected to each other. So, like, in our case, there's me, and then I'm also dating Lorena and JD, and they are metamours. And then Lorena has another partner who also has another partner.

F: And you guys all hung out together?

A: We've all met. We've hung out. We've hung out a few times. Like, I'm on great terms with them as well. I don't see them very often, Lorena's partners, very often. But, like, there's definitely a camaraderie there, I would say. JD And I both date this other couple, and we're also in the same friend group, so that we see each other a lot. It's not always a sexy time. Sometimes it is, sometimes it's not. I've had a couple shows recently where, like, the main audience that I drew was just, like, the people I date, which was. Yeah, the little Polycule shows up to support, which is so sweet. And everyone, like, hangs out with each other.

JD: And, like, we appreciate it because we all get to, like, swap off, taking turns for the merch table that we all work for Aviva. So to be like, all right, you get the first two songs, you get the next two. So that way we can all be there in the front row at some point.

F: And that's amazing. What type of music do you play?

A: Yeah, it is, like, indie folk, and it ranges kind of from indie rock, indie folk, to electro folk. So sometimes it has more, electronic elements and, stronger beats and stuff and kind of mixing together different kind of global sounds at times.

F: And do you write your songs?

A: Yeah, I'm the songwriter.

F: Do you have a song about this that we can plug in into the episode?

JD: Not yet. Maybe next year.

A: I'm sure I'm actually, like, work. I'm, like, promoting and playing a bunch of songs that I've written in the past and released my first album. So I've really been pushing that. But once that's done, I'll be writing a lot more music, and I think that I'm sure that this will come into it. But, yeah, I have a dream team. I feel extremely spoiled. Not that I also don't reciprocate support, but I just. They show up for my events a lot, which is very, very, very nice. I was. I want JD to say more, but there was one thing I just wanted to add about the jealousy, which is that, JD came into my life where I was dating several people, and some of those people I'm still dating. But JD has not been significantly dating anybody the entire time that we've been together, which is a kind of, like, crunchy edge for me in that I've, like, expressed feelings around, like, feeling nervous about when they inevitably will start dating somebody and maybe that person starts taking up some of their time or, like, what it will. You know, how I'll feel that first time that they're, like, going on a date. And, like, obviously I've seen them, like, make out with people and we've gone on mutual dates. But that is something that I've expressed. And I know logically, like, I date other people, so, like, my partner has to be able to date other people. But I have to admit at the same time that, like, that does make me nervous. And so we've talked through that at different points, and, like, JD does have a date coming up, and I'm really excited for them, and I think I want. I want that for them. It's our individual work to, like, figure out how to reach the conversion place and how. And not that it has to be done together in terms of, like, conversations and validating each other and setting up those boundaries. We were, discussing and also reevaluating those boundaries. But, like, like, when I'm having those feelings, I know that I have to look to myself to be, like, soothe myself and be like, I am, worthy. I am still valuable. This doesn't take away, like, we're all, you know, flames lighting more flames, not taking away from the original flame.

F: Um, yeah, I think that's a great point because something that I really appreciated. So I have a similar situation with my partner. He's so far monogamous, and I'm open. So something that I really, like, appreciated from him at the beginning. Now he doesn't feel jealousy. I mean, I'm sure he will at points, but, like, in general, like, it's like, you know, I go on a date, and he probably doesn't even think about it, but, um. But, you know, at first, I could tell that he would struggle when I went out on a date. And then, you know, like, I would, like, come back home, kind of, like, want to be close to him, because sometimes dating other people would spark my love for him and my desire for him. And he'd be like: "Okay, like, we had to, like, make this rule. Like, you come back from a date, and you can't just jump on me. You know, like, you need to. You need to. Like, I need some time, because I feel..." I can't remember, like, the words he used, but basically, like, apprehensive or uncomfortable with you, and he was trying to avoid being rude to me or just, you know, rejecting me. Or putting his jealousy on me. Like, he was always super careful to just kind of deal with it on his own, even if that meant setting some boundaries. Especially if you're close to your partner and you like, sharing, you might overshare about your jealousy and then your partner might feel bad for you and like, you both feel bad, but your partner can't really do much for you except maybe not seeing that person. And maybe you don't want them to not see that person. But. But you were just being honest. And then you are in this, you find yourself in this situation where no one's feeling good and you don't. JD And you don't want it building resentment either. Well, I'm not seeing this person because of you and things like that. When it's like, well, maybe we just need to communicate in a different way.

A: Yeah.

F: Or as you said, just, just take some time. Like, be like: "Okay, I can talk about this right now. I need some time." Like, kind of just work a little bit on, like, with yourself and kind of think what you want to express and then come back in, like, after you've, like, meditated or whatever you need to do in like, a calmer place to then have a conversation. It doesn't mean that you should, like, hide your jealousy from your partner, but just kind of like manage it in a way that, like, you don't put it on them. And it's your responsibility to deal with it first and then you can go to your partner.

A: How do we manage our own emotional reactions? For sure. I think that's.

F: So I have two more questions for you. The first one is what would your advice be for people who might want to be friends with their metamours? And the second one is what would you tell to a polycurious person? Or what advice would you have for your younger self, when you started exploring this journey?

JD: First piece of advice is you don't have to meet one on one in like an empty room, just the three of you or four of you or however many people are meeting. Like, it can be a normal social setting. Just like if you're introducing a friend from back home to a new friend group or you're bringing and introducing someone new to a space. And it doesn't have to be like, these are the two people. I need them to get to know each other because some of metamours might click. Like, there are definitely people that Aviva's date that I've clicked with more than others and I've appreciated their company and wanted a relationship outside of Aviva with them. And there are other people where I'm like, if we were at a party, we just wouldn't hang. And I don't really vibe with you. That's cool. I now know who you are. I have a face to put to the name when you go on a date. But like, I don't want to paint my house with you.

A: That's a special place. Wanting to be with the house.

F: Yeah, yeah. Also not forcing it. Right? Like, not everyone has to be friends with, with their metamours.

JD: But yeah, but then like there are people that I'm really close with that like, years ago, pre pandemic, we used to be hosting Poly Potlucks. So our partners and their partners. Partners would come, everyone brings a dish. You have a chance to have that literal kitchen table polyamory of getting to know everyone. And this was a group of people that also had kids. And so it was. You get to meet their extended connections. You are now connecting with babysitters who connects with that kid and like has their common interests or can teach them or someone else or has a recommendation for work or a book to read spaces like that to like build them without it being intense. But we didn't start that with everyone immediately coming to the table like that. First it started with get to know people one on one in those larger group settings to see who would want to show up to these. Because some partners aren't comfortable with that and that doesn't mean they're not invited to the table. But recognizing that their absence is them honoring their space and their needs.

L: Yeah, I think being curious, like it like the orientation for a metamour for me is like: "Oh, someone who's like super special to me finds this person super special. So like, what's the fuss all about?" Like what's their vibe like? And um, you know, similar to JD. Like, I feel very grateful. I'm really proud of us. Like, I really authentically enjoy JD's company and friendship and my other metamour, very similar. I feel, I feel incredibly lucky that I have two metamours that I really like because it's not always authentic. Like there's been people that Aviva has dated in the past that I'm like, I am finding that I don't actually want to hear stories about this person, but how do I be in support with you? Like,

You know, and that was like an interesting thing for us to navigate. And so I don't think, don't force it, but I think leading with curiosity and openness is, like, important.

A: Absolutely agree with everything you all said. I think, a switch that I had for myself around jealousy was that I used to feel really jealous of people that were different than me in terms of, like, if my partner was going on a date with someone that was like, I don't know, was like, you know, had a job that I didn't have that my partner thought was really cool or like, did a thing or, had a common, like, you know, identity that I didn't have or something like that. And I used to feel really jealous because I would be like, well, I'm not that thing. And they're going to like that thing and then they're going to like that thing more. And then at a certain point I switched and you know, hopefully don't get jealous the other way. But like, recognizing like, that's who that person is and that person's also not me. And my partner likes me for all the things that they like me about, and that person doesn't have those things. And not that you can't have common things, but like, you know, for me now, if someone, if my partner's going on a date with someone that I think is really similar to me, I might actually be more like, well, you know, why do you already have that? Yeah, you already have that. And then I try to be like, Exactly. And then

I try to be like, we're all different people. Even if there's like, you know, on paper there's these similarities. Every human connection is going to be different. And recognizing that, like, seeing the other people that your partners are going on dates with as full people who also have emotions and also deserve respect and also, you know, might feel nervous about certain things, like, really helps. And I think finding that like, secure attachment basically within yourself to be like, I'm going to be okay and it's okay that there's another person and that doesn't threaten who I am as a person. And finding that confidence, which is very challenging, but that is a, like, definitely marked change that I've felt in myself. And it makes it much easier to then want to know your metamours and want to have relationships with them once you're not threatened by them.

F: Yeah, that's a great point. Yeah. The second one was what would you tell to a really curious person?

JD: I have an automatic piece of advice that pops in my head to, like, tell a younger self. And that is like, as someone who was practicing polyamory, younger and younger and like, tried as I got older, like, this is how relationships, like, to me, are supposed to be. It's supposed to be two people or things like that. Or as I got older, like, oh, you'll grow out of your poly experience. I was always told so later on into my later 20s, trying to be monogamous and telling myself it isn't polyamory doesn't have to be a phase. And trying to become something you're not only leads to other people getting hurt. So I've always been open about I am someone who's polyamorous, and I've been with partners who are like: "I'm not, but I'm open to giving this a try." And then at some point, the relationship gets closed. It's one of those. But you're not seeing other people. Or maybe I'm not okay with that now. And you're like, well, I really care about you, so then, okay, we don't have to see other people. Inevitably, something does build up, and, like, as someone who does practice poly and wants to have that kind of expansive experience starts to feel like you're letting a part of yourself down and you're not really being true to, like, what your needs are, and you're kind of boxing them away in honor of someone else, but it's not honoring yourself. So it'd really kind of be like, just don't try to pretend to be something that someone else might want, which might be monogamous, whether that person is your family member or it's a friend or someone that's giving you that advice.

Or if it's like, I'm in a professional workspace, this is what professional people do. And it's no, poly people are everywhere. It is a valid relationship style. It is something that has existed beyond our timelines that are documenting things that currently exist. It's something of. It is a sense of community that you're building, too. And not to minimize that, but also not to almost lie and pretend to yourself that you can be something that maybe you aren't.

A: Yeah, beautiful snaps to that. Yeah. Yeah. Imean, I was going to say something similar about, like, just the understanding how expansive human relationships can be. And I come from a really traditional community that, like, has a very, you know, set path of how you're supposed to be, even the kind of person you're supposed to marry and the kind of home you should have, and this, like, very extensive generational lineage.

And so it's been a really big challenge for me to, like, break away from that and not feel Like, I'm, like, doing something that's unrealistic. But I think, like, giving yourself permission to not be bound by one thing or the other. Like, if you do polyamory for a while or open relationship or whatever, however you define it, and it really works for you at a certain point, and then you get to another part of your life where that doesn't work anymore, or you do feel with your partner, for whatever reason together, that it makes sense to kind of, like, shift things. Like, do that. Don't hold yourself to whatever it is. We make these stories about ourselves, and we change so much. Everything in poly is a conversation. Everything, I think, in all relationships should be a conversation, because you may say, this is how I'm going to feel about this thing. And then that thing happens, and you realize that's not how you felt about that thing, and you need to readjust. So everything, both on a personal level and within your relationships, I think just like, giving yourself permission to grow and adapt and sometimes take a step back and take many steps forward.

F: Yeah. Yeah. I think it's hard for us as a society sometimes to just be fine with not knowing what comes next, kind of like the relationship skeletor and just kind of being fine with things changing and remaining open to continuing the conversation. And, I mean, we're all young here, but, like, especially when, as people get older, then they start freaking out because they are like, oh, if this is not the person that I'm going to be with forever and having kids. And it's just like, even if you try to go down that path of, like, okay, I'm just gonna marry and have kids because it's now or never, you might get divorced. I mean, so many people get divorced. Or you might, you know, not have the experience that you wanted because you weren't listening to what you needed at the moment. So, yeah, I think that it's a good reminder just in life in general, but also in relationships to just kind of be with what is and work with what you have and not try to kind of force things into what you think would be ideal. Right?

JD: Yeah. And going both ways. So not forcing into monogamy or not forcing into polyamory, like, if that's something you feel open to exploring. And, like, although I've continued to identify as polyamorous, for most of the first year that Aviva and I have been dating, I have not been seeing other people. But that doesn't change that I identify as polyamorous. That, like, is still an option in an ongoing conversation.

F: It just hasn't felt right for you at this moment.

JD: Exactly.

F: Yeah.

L: A lot of a lot of good advice around the table right now. Yeah. I mean, thinking back to my younger self, humans are creatures of change and adaptation and curiosity and knowing that and being like, I'm a creature of that too. And allowing myself, being an expansive play with that, doing that aligned with my values, and trying to do that with other people aligned with my values. Releasing or being in transition with, wanting to do that with someone who's actually not aligned with that. I think I tried really hard with someone who wasn't actually in alignment. And that caused a lot of strife for both of us. And not optimizing for simplicity, like, optimizing myself and my life for, like, what's really aligned with my heart, which is complex. I am a walking paradox, for sure. I think a lot of people probably are. And I guess for my younger self, I would like most specifically say, if you're leading your voice in love and honesty and vulnerability, that is a better pathway of saying your truth.

F: Thank you so much for being on the podcast. It has been truly a pleasure.

L: Thank you so much.

F: What a beautiful conversation. Thank you guys for joining. If you want to check out Aviva's music, the link is in the show notes as well as the resources we discussed in today's episode.