Michael: Seeing your girlfriend get fucked by someone, that's an experience that I had had in my head a number of times. I was never all right with it. Then, you know, when it finally happened, you know, like, I. My little ego or it is in there just being like, you okay with this? You okay with this? And I'm like, yeah, it's one of life's great tragedies that you can't fuck someone and go down on them at the same time. Um, and I'm like, oh, of course. You know, I gotta phone a friend. And if. And if my ultimate goal is to. Is to make her happy and to make her feel good, the ability to enlist, you know, somebody I love and trust to help out in that endeavor is fucking amazing.

Fernanda: Hi, everyone. Welcome to Polycurious. I am your host, Fernanda, or Fer for short. And today feels like a real milestone for me because I am sharing the last episode of the podcast, at least for a little while. If you happen to be new to the podcast, don't worry.

There are about 40 episodes already available for you to listen to, so just scroll and find a, uh, topic that you might find interesting. If you are a longtime listener and you love the podcast, my ask for you before I go is that you subscribe and give us a rating. Ratings are actually the only publicly available information. Other people have to know how well a podcast is doing. So if you want more people to learn from Polycurious, just like you have, make sure to take just one minute of your time to give us a rating on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen. And if you haven't subscribed yet, you want to make sure to do so, because that is the only way you will actually get a notification when and if I release a new episode. And the reason why I'm pausing the podcast, even though it's actually going better than ever in terms of how many people are listening, is because I am transitioning my focus into doing relationship coaching. I am seeing couples who are opening up, but also couples who might be having issues in their communication, whether they are open or not.

So if you feel that you might need some help in your relationship or relationships, reach out so we can set up a free meeting where we can chat about where I might be able to help you.

Okay. Without further delay, let me tell you about today's episode. I got to interview my dear friends Chamberlain and Michael. And, um, I named this episode, You Need to Struggle through Curiosity to find your Freedom. Because that is exactly what they had to go through. And this is actually a quote that Chamberlain mentioned somewhere in our conversation, supposedly by Einstein, but it didn't seem like it was from him from my research. So if you know where this quote comes from, do let me know. But no matter who said it, maybe it was Chamberlain herself because she's so wise. I thought it was so representative of their journey. As you will learn today, they struggled a lot, having periods of opening and closing, cheating and hurting each other and ultimately breaking up. And about a month after they broke up, uh, Chamberlain found out that that she was pregnant. And for reasons we discussed in our conversation, this pregnancy was like a wake up call for them. Obviously this situation is unique and even they don't recommend having a kid to quote unquote fix a relationship. But I found their story and perspective truly fascinating. We also talk about Michael's process getting comfortable with having threesomes with other men. And I think it's so important to talk about this because sometimes we don't realize how much patriarchy manifest even in group sex situations. So if you are in a heterosexual partnership where you might want to bring men in, you might find some useful insights in today's conversation. After my conversation with Chamberlain and Michael, you'll get to hear from Mariah, my bestie, who has hosted a bunch of episodes with me, especially in the first season. And since this is our last episode, I wanted to give you guys a chance to hear what she has been up to. And I also just wanted us tosay goodbye together.

Before we start, I just have two quick notes. One. I want to give Chamberlain's product Powderful a shout out. It is a wellness blend that has a bunch of adaptogens and supplements designed for cognitive function and anti aging. And honestly it also tastes great. It's a powder that you mix in with water or your drink of choice. I have been drinking it for months. I have even used it as a mixer for cocktails. I am actually drinking it as we speak, mixed not with alcohol but with my green powder which normally tastes terrible, but with powderful and a bit of lime juice it's actually really enjoyable.

The second and last note is that the audio quality for today's conversation wasn't as great as it normally is because I interviewed them over Zoom and they live in the coast in Mexico where the Internet is not. But the content is so worth it that I am sure you will be forgiving with us. And you might also hear all sorts of nature sounds in the background. Hopefully it will help you get a picture of what their beach life looks like at the moment. Okay, guys, here's my conversation with Chamberlain and Michael.

So welcome, guys, to Polycurious. I've been waiting so long to have this conversation with you. We've been friends for a while, but we haven't really had the chance to really dive into your relationship history and your lessons. But first of all, I'll give you an opportunity to introduce yourself to the listeners who might not know you. Chamberlain: Hi, my name is, my name is Chamberlain Newsom, and I am the mother of Tomas Rex, otherwise known as T. Rex. And at this moment, I am also a co-founder of Powderful, uh, which is a wellness blend of adaptions and mushrooms that has also been keeping me super busy while also being mom,um, ex artist and recovering artist. Recovering artist and dating this guy Michael for six plus almost seven years.

M: Um, yeah. So partner in crime, um, sidekick to me is Chamberlain. And, um, the, um, evil mastermind T. Rex, also recovering artists or maker of stuff, now holder of space. Um. I think that having a kid kind of short circuited, that kind of ego trip, like, you know all about me, artistic impulse. And now I. Yeah, I want to build community and build the space for that community to occupy.

F: Yeah. Now you're building this community in Oaxaca. In the coast of Oaxaca, Mexico, which, yeah, we're all very excited about as your friends. And Rex just turned two years old. But why don't you guys take me back to when you guys met. I didn't know you then, but, uh, yeah, I'm curious how you guys ended up in a relationship together.

M: Yeah, let's do it. Let's do it in a nutshell. We met at. We met through, um, art stuff, actually.

C: Yeah. At his gallery.

M: At my gallery in Chelsea. Uh, and, um, but we were both with other people and it was kind of one of those, like, yeah, you look good from across the room. But, uh, we didn't really, um, really hang until probably a few months later.

C: Yeah. And I was at my apartment with my friend Mara, and we. It was like one of those hundred degree summer days. My AC was broken and we were like, what are we gonna do today? So we decided to microdose and paint. So we did that. And the evening comes around and she gets a text from this guy and, um, he was like: "Hey, I'm in your neighborhood, can I stop by?" She's like: "Sure." So he comes over to. I had just purchased my apartment like a few months ago, and he shows up in my kitchen. And immediately as he walks in starts, like splashing water on his forehead and I was like: "Dude, what are you doing? You know, like, I know it's hot out, but it's like a little weird." And he's like: "There's glass in my forehead." And I was like: "Uh, why? Like, that's so weird." And he shows me a photo of him with his head in my, like, front entranceway glass door.

F: Oh my God.

C: And he's like: "You should have seen the other guy. We got in this crazy fight." And I was like: "Dude, what is wrong with you?" And I, like, went off on him. I was so pissed. I was like, who do you think you are? You're gonna pay for this. Like, we have cameras.

F: And so he got on a fight with the guy.

C: Yeah, that's what he's like proposing to me.

M: No, no, none of those things happened.

C: Finally he sees I, like, had lost it. And I was about to like, literally keep him locked up in my apartment till he paid for this thing. Um, yeah, he was just posing and like joking about the whole thing, which is a very Michael thing to do now, knowing him. But, um, I didn't find it very funny at the moment. Then I found it funny after. But yeah, so that was what started off our relationship that day, which turned into basically a 24 hour date.

M: Uh, yeah, it turned out we found out at like 4 in the morning that we had both been tripping the whole time and trying to hold it down. Um, just keep it together. And then that explained a lot of things. Um, and yeah, and we went to the beach and Floyd Bennett Field the next day.

C: Yeah.

M: Um, but yeah, we pretty quick quickly realized that it was a good thing and we should keep it going.

F: So at this point you weren't partnered anymore?

M: No, I mean, we were. Yeah, we're both seeing other people. I mean, her more seriously. Um, I didn't really find out, um, the extent of her relationships until a couple months later. Um, there was like, she would do this, she would make this sound like when I thought I was giving it to her really good, almost like a horse, like Nang. And I'd be like: "Oh, damn, man. Uh, this girl is worn out." Uh, and it turns out that she was sleeping with at least two other people. And one of these days I was like her third date of the day. And, uh, so it kind of made sense that she was feeling worn out.

F: Tell me, Chamberlain, why weren't you sharing with Michael the fact that you were seeing other people?

C: Well, at that point I had had a series of relationships in New York, um, that were the typical kind of no one's wanting to settle down, even like the topic of: "Okay, like let's be together, but we can like be with other people, maybe two, or figure out what that could even look like." Was just like a trying thing and it was something a partner and I had tried earlier, but then became like really catty and like awkward. And so we just kind of, or at least I was kind of avoiding the topic. And it was still so early in the relationship. It was like a month in. It just didn't even seem like something that was appropriate to discuss at that point.

M: Yeah, it's kind of like the Don't Ask, Don't Tell approach. I mean a good looking social person, very likely they have a lot of other. Especially in New York. Right. It's like, obviously they're going to have other options and uh, obviously you don't want to know. Yeah. Also I'm going to focus on what's going on.

C: I mean, I started dating this artist guy who, I mean for all intensive purposes, everything about him was a red flag. So I didn't, um, Yeah, I didn't, I didn't really think this was going to develop into the relationship that we have today in. By any accounts, it was more a rebound from my long term relationship that I was getting over and.

M: What?

C: Well, you were. I mean, but for that, like I had asked for, basically I was like, I want the merging of these two people, but in like a much better, like perfect form.

M: And got it.

C: Got it like 100 times over.

M: So much better. So much better if I don't say so myself.

F: Yeah. So two of your past relationships, what were those aspects?

M: The poet, lumberjack, the elusive. No, I don't know.

C: Basically. Basically.

F: No, but seriously, I want to know because I feel like that sometimes, you know, I'm like: "Oh, if I could only have this like sexual connection, but with the, with how careful this other person is or something. I don't know." Like you, you make those ideas in your head. But just to give an idea for people who don't know Michael of, of who he is, what was that combo? What were the two attributes that you wanted to combine?

C: So there was the combo of the, uh, safety. Um, my one relationship gave me a lot of security, um, feeling like I was really taken care of and grounded. And he did take care of me as well in a lot of ways. Um, in a very like kind of old school way. Um, but then there's the intellectual side and then also the kind of bad boy leaving a little bit to be desired. Um, and yeah, Michael is a little bit of all of them. You know, Although he is like this, you know, kind of walking red flag, he is also incredibly grounded. He makes me feel incredibly safe and secure in so many ways, um, while also leaving a lot of adventure and wonder, um, still on the table. So. Yeah. And he is incredibly smart.

M: Thanks baby. Yeah. Likewise.

C: Yeah. Keeps me. Keeps me on my toes mentally and intellectually too.

F: Yeah, I love that. It's interesting how you describe Michael as a walking red flag, because, I mean, I understand where that's coming from. Because before, like, actually getting to know Michael, you know, I also felt that way. I was not completely sure because he loves to party and he's constantly making sexual jokes. All of these things that, uh, in other people, it could mean that they are just like this party person who has no ambitions in life or something like that. But when you actually get to know Michael, you realize all of these things. Like, he's a person that you can rely on, actually. Like, that makes you feel safe. He's very smart. Uh, but. Yeah, but he also has this, like, super wild side. Yeah. Which makes him a complex and, like, beautiful human. So. Yeah. I'm glad that you saw those things in him. So how did you guys go from, uh, just dating casually and not even knowing what the other person was doing to being in a relationship or talk about the other partners that you were interacting with?

C: So, uh, Michael was helping me fix my kitchen. Um, my kitchen was basically a disaster. Um, um. And he made it into an incredibly beautiful space. And, uh, he was doing a lot of hard work on it one day. And I was like, any woman's heart redo her kitchen. Um, um. And I was like, I want to take you out to dinner. Let's go to a nice dinner, you know, as a thank you. And so we went out to eat. And, uh, we were just having a casual conversation. And, like, I don't remember how it came up, but he just was like: "Oh, well, it's not like we're sleeping with other people." And I was like: "Rght, we're not." And so at the moment.

M: So then at this restaurant right now.

C: So I just then was like, okay, cool. Like, now we're together and secretly. I mean, that was really what I had wanted was to. At that point, we had now been dating probably for like a month, maybe a little over. Um, and I was. Wasn't super into the other relationships and was ready to kind of. Yeah, I was like, this guy is, you know, he's a keeper, at least. For now.

M: Um, yeah, I didn't have a lot of other great options. Somebody just shat in my bed. I was like, this isn't working.

C: So you were like, I'll just go with her. Yeah, I guess you'll do.

M: At that point, Chamberlain hadn't shattened my bed yet.So I was like, this is definitely the keeper here.

C: That makes me feel really special. Thank you.

M: No, no, I was pretty. I was just like, um, uncharacteristically, um, committed almost from the beginning. I was like, yep, yep, this is a good one and stick with it. And I think, yeah, I was probably convinced before. You were. They say that, um, that high that you get when you meet someone and fall in love, that sort of, you know, endorphin, whatever, serotonin, dopamine, all those good love chemicals, high that you get, um, just gradually goes back to baseline. And after like five years, you're back at the starting point. But as we said, we've been together for over five years and still very, very much get off on each other. I'm still like, I'm just still amazed, you know, every time I pull your underwear down that there's a vagina under there. It's miraculous.

F: Yeah. On the five year note, I've been with Seth for four years and a half. I didn't know that statistic that you cited, which I don't know how, uh, you know, real it is, but I still very much feel like you guys feel with Seth. Like, I'm very much in love with him. Like I told him the other day, like, so weird sometimes. Like, some days, just randomly, it's just like, I just feel like we just met or something, you know, like, I just see you in a different light. And he was like, yeah, I feel the same way towards you, but, you know, um, yeah, I wonder about how that might change after we cross the five year mark. Um, because, you know, if you make.

C: It to five years, you're supposed to be pretty good.

M: You're good, you made it well. Right. Because they, the other, the other side of that study was, um, they also did brain scans of people who had been together for, you know, 40 years and were like, and we've never been so in love. And that was actually confirmed, um, by those brain scans. They were like: “Oh, shit.” Like, it's true. These people are still getting high on each other. And I think, you know, we choose to love each other and we choose to continue to be into each other. And I think, you know, being adventurous as a couple, feeling safe as a couple, but also being, you know, that. That balance that Chamberlain described, and she was, you know, blowing all that lovely sunshine up my ass. Thank you again. We'll have to do these more often. Um, but I think things like that can. Can. Can help maintain a relationship. Sort of feeling kind of fresh and exciting and not feeling kind of trapped. Right. And limited by that relationship.

F: Yeah, I agree with that. I think. Think that when I'm dating other people, like, I definitely come back to Seth, like, a little bit more excited, you know, uh, which in your situation is different. Right. Because you. You mostly. Or. Yeah, I think you have only played together or mostly played together. Uh, why don't you tell me how that conversation started or, you know, what your first open experiences were like?

M: Well, our first one was super early on. Yeah, we had hung out like, once or twice. Twice maybe. And I was at this party, and I invited her, and, um. But was hittingit off with, you know, a number of other women there. I was like: "Oh, damn, I fucked up. I'm bringing sand to this beach right now." And Chams got there and in characteristic fashion, just, like, hit it off with everybody was totally cool and not catty or possessive at all. And we ended up just all, you know, I think deciding to leave right after being kicked out and, um, went to somebody's apartment, played like, spin the bottle. The five of us, I think, me and these, like, three girls and Chamberlain. And, um, two of them got freaked out and left eventually. Maybe they got tired, uh, but the other one didn't. And we had a crazy night. Um, and I was like: "Oh, damn. All right. This is. Someone who can hang like, this could work." I think that was one of the things that, um, really impressed me. And I was like: "Oh, damn. Okay. So the rules of this relationship are different, um, than the relationships I've had in the past," because there was always that push, pull between fidelity and infidelity and sort of possession and insecurity. And, you know, I'd never had, like, a real kind of open relationship in which it's. Something like that could occur. And so the possibility of that was hugely enticing.

F: Yeah, I love that. How was the experience for you, Chamberlain? Was it positive as well?

C: Yeah, I mean, it was one of my, like, most positive in the beginning, um, kind of open moments of total kind of freedom where I was, like, falling for this guy. I had just finished kind of a phase of, um, really exploring curiosity, uh, through women. And I got to kind of have my cake and eat it too at a moment um, and then I remember, like riding home on the handlebars of his bike in the morning, back to my apartment, and him just being like. But the whole time I just wanted to be with you. Like, and it was like a feeling of feeling so much, um, like just love and fullness and it just felt really freeing. Ah. And fun. It was just like pure fun. Um, and then I remember like a few weeks after that being at the Standard Hotel and we were like up there and talking and he said something like, along the lines of. And he was probably like joking in typical Michael form, but also like, with an underlying bit of truth there and just saying, like. But like, with you we can just like, also just sleep with whoever. And it brought up this feeling of like. Mmm. But was this a misunderstood moment of, uh. This doesn't mean like, just the world is totally open between us. It just meant like in that moment, at that time, it was totally in flow and worked. And I remember that being a moment of me feeling like I needed to kind of like tame the reins a bit, which felt like a bummer. You know, we had a few more like, experiments and like, things started to get me like, trying.

M: Yeah, we had another experiment with that same person, um, that was kind of weird and forced. And then she began pursuing me pretty aggressively and me being, you know, the piece of shit that I am, um, ultimately gave into that and committed what I think is the cardinal sin of, uh, that kind of open arrangement is to then go and sleep with that person unilaterally. Um, which I think really poisoned the. Well, I obviously, I mean, you know, I think she had already cheated on me with her roommate. Like, we had had our little infidelities.

C: It was a kind of shitty time in our relationship, actually.

M: Yeah.

C: Of like, guilt and like, you know.

M: Bullshit and like, self bullshit.

C: Mhm.

M: And bullshit towards the other. And yeah, like you said, not being honest about where we were really at, what our real needs were.

C: Yeah. I think also I had like a lot of fears I hadn't seen. I hadn't known any relationships that were, um, successful by my accounts, uh, or even still together of people that had open relationships or were curious. So I think I started to get a little crippled by fear of like, crap. I really like this guy. And um.

M: Typical. Typical. See, like, yeah, we just suffocated.

C: Now. I liked him, so I was like, gonna have to like, hold you down.

F: So it sounds like you guys jumped into being open too quickly before you guys had kind of established a safe base. Right. A lot of couples kind of have a similar experience. They're like, yeah, let's have a threesome. Let's be open. And then they have an uncomfortable experience or they don't communicate properly, whatever it is. And then they're like: "Okay, this is not for us." And they pull back. Not everyone tries it again. How did you guys end up deciding to try it again?

C: Yeah, I think that it was tricky because I had also hooked up with someone and was being fairly secretive about it. So I think we both had seen the other person's perspective of why, but was still finding fault in the other person for doing what they did, um, and angry and hurt about it. And I think that, yeah, I think it was just kind of this, like, I think it was Albert Einstein that said, you need to struggle through curiosity to find your freedom or something like that. And although I don't think you necessarily need to struggle as part of the beautiful journey. Right. But I do think we had to struggle, or we did struggle a bit through our curiosity for freedom or openness and what that really meant for us in order to get to where we were. Also, I think just working through the kind of hangups from our previous relationships.

M: Yeah, yeah, it's vestigial stuff. It's all sort of par for the course. You know, if you talk about, like, regular old fashioned, quote unquote monogamous relationships, like, these are the dynamics at play. Jealousy is to some extent encouraged, um, and betrayal is to some extent inevitable because, you know, we're not acknowledging aspects of our humanity. But the nice thing about sort of kind of being on the same team like we were in that initial, uh, threesome and like we are now, it's like we can experience that relative freedom and, like, excitement that life and sex and relationships have to offer. But we're experiencing it together, um, to some extent, or if we're experiencing it individually, we know that it's only going to culminate when we're together. And so we're complicit in it.

C: And I think that was part of our learning curve and experience, too, is trying to figure out which I think a lot of couples go through, is like, what does open mean to us? What are we open and comfortable with? And so can we find these adventures together so that we find a different kind of safety and adventure in that? And at least that's where we found. I think that works the best for us at this, up until this moment. Um, without a doubt, yeah.

F: And how did you arrive to that conclusion? How did you go from closing to being like: "Okay, you know what, we're going to open up, but let's do it together."

M: Well, we've been back and forth, right? We've been. We've been closed. We've been sort of, uh, like semi unwilling open. Um, at which point I realized pretty quickly that, you know, I was just like, fucking around and feeling good about it. And Chams is like, she's sending me screenshots of these, like, very eligible dudes on Raya or whatever. And I'm like: "Oh, uh, she's not fucking around. She's just like, looking for a replacement." You know, she would, like, underline the dudes being like, must be monogamous, like, looking for a committed woman for, like, heartfelt relationship. No bullshit.

F: Wait, wait, wait. And she showed you this?

M: Yeah, she would, like, send me screenshots. And I was like, I was in Costa Rica at the time.

C: I was being manipulative.

M: She was being manipulative, but very successfully. Um, and I was like: "Oh, okay, you know, I'm in. I'm like, I'm hanging out with Joe Che in Costa Rica" and being like, what, what's wrong? We're just like, you know, it's like, our freedom, our truth or whatever. And, uh, you know, and she's just kind of trolling Raya back in New York and sending me screenshots. And I'm like: "Oh, okay, so I'm gonna lose her for this frivolous, you know, for these just, you know, for just random sex, like something that's fun, uh, but not ultimately, like, nowhere near the relationship that we had." And it was at that point, this is just pre Covid. It was at this point that I was like, all right, you know what? I give in. I will be totally monogamous. I had this revelation. I was like, I don't need to, like, sleep with people. It's really like I'm craving validation. I'm craving, like, platonic love, even sort of romantic love. But it doesn't have to manifest in sex. Like, 90% of that can play out with ever touching someone. And I'm willing to renounce that 10% so as not to. To lose this woman that I love. Um, and I got back and it was amazing. We drove cross country, uh, all this stuff Covid hit. We were isolated together, and I found myself being very resentful and being like: "Oh, okay. I'm just like, am I ever going to have sex with anyone else? I'm never going to see anyone else." Um, and you know, at some point um, that resentment coupled with, you know, whatever. Whatever she was metabolizing coupled with just like, you know, just the COVID, Covid breakups.

C: Um, yeah, we were, we were like.

M: All right, fuck this, we're out. And I just went down to the city, just started hanging out with Gil and Sarah.

C: We broke up over a blender.

M: We broke up over a blender. There's a lot of kitchen motifs, our relationship.

C: But it was a total metaphor for just, I think like, basically like he had turned the blender on, I had left it on high. And it, like, he didn't put the lid on. So it shot everything up. Uh, and this was my fault. I thought it was, you know, his fault for not chucking anything.

M: You don't put it on high. You use the toggle thing.

C: But I think, like, yeah, up until this point we weren't like, allowing each other to be free. There wasn't enough trust. Um, we had broken that trust, uh, a lot. Even though I think we both were, you know, curious about, like, wanting to like, continue to explore our sexuality and pleasure. Um, but we really just didn't have the tools. We didn't know how to do it. Even immersed in a community that is, you know, very exploratory, I didn't trust in general that this could be a thing.

M: You had a real mistrust of the community too.

C: I did, I did. And not not of like our community, just of the poly open community in general. I had some, like, bad experiences with it. I had, um, just mostly with the guys. The girls were always amazing.

M: Guys are the worst, as usual. I can confirm this.

C: Um, but a lot of being told one thing and then finding out later from his girlfriend, this was actually not their agreed on situation. And so I was very fearful of Michael being that kind of a dude and, uh, totally justified.

F: Well, I'm glad you guys made it to the other side. But how did you do that? So you broke up? It was a pandemic. Uh, so that was three years ago. Uh, now three years later, you have a two year old child. You've, uh, been going on strong for a while.

M: Um, yeah, do that math.

C: I think, um, the like, real short answer is we got over our bullshit, uh, real fucking fast and we had to. And that was a complete result of me getting pregnant and reality, uh, taking a real.

M: Yeah, that's another. That's another tip, guys. Yeah. Any problem in your relationship can be fixed by just having a kid.

C: Just kidding. It's probably not the best recipe for most people, but for some reason it worked for us. Um, I think that at that point we had been broken up. I got pregnant.

F: How long had it been since you had broken up when you got pregnant, when you found out?

M: Like a month.

C: A month.

F: Okay.

C: So we were, it was very early, but we were both on our respective journeys of, you know, figuring out and like starting to find our freedom and it starting to feel good even though we still kind of missed each other and all of that stuff.

M: Um, yeah, feeling very, very held and um, supported by the community and just feeling so like safe and, and empowered by that. I was like, I don't want to go back into this relationship. I don't need to be in any relationship. I've got all these people here. Um, and interestingly, um, that community support has the same value in a relationship as out of one. Like either way the community holds you and if you're in a relationship, that means that you don't have to be all things, um, to each other. So to some extent that that love and support that, that we got from the community when we are set, when we are separated is the love and support that continues. Um, mhm. To that. Yeah. Just makes it possible to be together.

C: Yeah. I think that, you know, there was a big switch that happened for me too where the community, um, that we're in before all of this was like a party thing for me. It was like I didn't, I didn't allow the relationships to go like much deeper than that, um, in uh, my questioning of relationships because I had fears and whatever. And then I realized how much of a support they were for me, um, during this time, particularly as I was figuring out, am I going to keep this child? Do I want to keep this child?

M: I knew the answer was yes.

C: Yeah, we both kind of knew the answer was yes. Um, but it was, it brought up a lot of things and the community was, you know, my friends were there for me in a way that I hadn't let them be there for me in so many ways and they can have continued to be. And I think that for us as we decided, we didn't decide that we were going to be together when we decided to keep the kid. Even though like, in hindsight we did. But you know, we were like: "Okay, like we're going to have this kid and that means that we're going to be in each other's lives forever." Um, and that was a real reality check. It was like: "Okay, if we're going to be in each other's lives forever," like that gave I think me at least a lot of security of just like: "Okay, I feel really comfortable with that. We're going to be in each other's lives forever, so I can relax a lot on a lot of things." Um, and so that allowed for a lot of freedoms to happen. And, you know, over the next two years, I think were some of our most pleasurable and sensual, uh, moments. Um, which ironic because I was also pregnant and breastfeeding cycle, but, like, I had the most freedom, you know, mentally and just of security as well as just like, ridiculous fun. And I've had body issues my whole life. And so it was kind of like letting go of so many things, like, my body's so out of control, like, whatever, like, this is life. And it was a really beautiful transformation, um, for me and for our relationship.

M: Yeah. So we realized, um, what Chamberlain just said, if on some level we're going to be together forever, there's a safety and security in that and other people will come and go. And that was sort of the understanding. When we got back together, I was going to be open and we were going to be fearless now. Um, because. Because we knew we weren't going to lose each other. Um, but then we made the decision, or I made the decision while she was pregnant

not to be out there running around

and having my own sexual experiences when she, you know, just carrying this. This. This great burden. I didn't want her to have those. Just really any negative sentiment, um, during that time. And so we committed to basically the agreement that we are still honoring. Um, that we can go out and fuck around and be flirty and all.

M: The things.

F: And make out, but not.

M: Yeah. Like high school makeouts, whatever. The exact line, um, is something that we're constantly sort of feeling out, but basically that any kind of real escalation. Any. That when the clothes come off, we both need to be there.

C: Yeah. And I think it's pretty, like, understood now what the line is. We both internally can feel like we're like: "Oh, this is probably what Michael would not find appropriate." Or it doesn't even need to be stated. Yeah.

M: We're just like. We both feel it. And then, um, you know, and a minor transgression is almost, like, funny.

C: Yeah. You're like.

M: We're just like, okay, I'm gonna have to step it up.

C: Yeah. And I think, um, you know, for me, that was also an important moment, just as, you know, you said, carrying this burden. And yes, in a way, it was a burden. And I think it mighthave been more of a burden if I, like, didn'tfeel your strength and support during that time. I think we tried to find ways to make it a, uh, really. Because it is just a magical experience too, in so many ways. And for me, a thing that was really important during that time is I realized how much I wasn't actually voicing what I needed, which I think is true for a, um, lot of people in relationships, whether it's man or woman. But I do think women in general, um, and I think I had this kind of new superpower of, you know, I wasn't it. What I needed wasn't just for me anymore, it was for my baby too. And I had no reason to hold anything back. You know, I wasn't. I think in general I'm a people, people pleaser. And so I don't want to, you know, upset the room or upset people. And so it's like, in general, if I don't need to say it, I won't. Um, but at this point in my life, I realized everything that I, like, felt I kind of needed to say because it was important to my growth as well as my baby's growth as well as my relationship growth. And I think that was really important during that time too, for us to going from a phase of, uh, we no longer want to be together. And there was a reason that we broke up, you know. And so, uh, for us to be able to come back together there, we had to kind of work through our shit and we had to be really honest about it and kind of blunt about it at times and, um, not feel bad about the things that we needed or the things that we wanted and to also really let go of, uh, um, our past and the things that we've done that hurt each other and like, fucking move on from it, you know, like, if we're going to create a life together, if we're going to be a family, um, whether we're going to be together as a family or not, like, we need to figure out how to like, communicate together, um, which is an ongoing thing, I think in all relationships is like communication. It still is for us in different ways, but like, let's talk about this. Let's move on from it. Let's like, go and. And let's be the best versions of ourselves now. And let's be who and how we want to be. And if we can't be honest and trust that that's what we want to do, then what are we doing, you know? Um, and so I think, um, that's why you know, it wasn't the kid that made our relationship. Okay. It was what came along with that and the honesty that, um, we chose and decided to move through and for.

F: I love that. Yeah. It sounds like, you know, you learn to love yourself a little bit more. Before you had him, you were like: "Oh, why would I stand up for what I want when maybe what I want is not that important?" But then it was like: "It's not just about what I want. I'm, um, an extension of this child that's growing inside me. So I have to stand up for him. So I'm going to stand up for myself." Right. Which I think is very beautiful. And I think on Michael's side, it was maybe I need to respect. Yes, Chamberlain. But I also need to respect that baby that's inside of her. Right. And I need to make sure that I'm there for her and for him. It could have gone the complete other way. Right. Like, for many couples, having a, ah, kid is literally what breaks them. But it sounds like for you, it was what really made you guys take each other more seriously. Because it wasn't just about sexual drive or what you wanted. Like, in a superficial level, it was who we are as people because we're going to be parents and what do we want to model for our kid and how do we want to take care of him and all of that, which I think is super beautiful. Um, but how. So you were broken up. You decided to keep the child. Uh, which I'm curious to hear. Why did you want to keep the child even though you were broken up? And at that point you were, like, feeling good about that decision of having broken up, and then how did you go from that to deciding to, like, get back together?

M: No, I didn't want to keep the child. I was. I, uh. I just knew that. That that was what was going to happen. I, um. She'd actually told me before. She's like, if I get pregnant, I'm keeping it. I was like, all right, good thing that's not happening. I mean, that was. I can't say that that was not part of the calculus. You know, when we did break up.

C: I mean, for the record, that was not how it stated. This was me. I mean, I'm making a decision to take out an IUD because I had to, because of reasons that are not necessarily share right now.

M: But yeah.

C: And I was like, if I will keep it. But it wasn't like a...

M: Wasn't an ultimatum. It was a simple statement of fact. Um, and when and but beyond that, just intuitively, like, when I found out that she was pregnant, I was like, all right, this is happening. And if this is happening, I'm going to be there.

C: Um, because he's a reliable guy.

M: That whole reliability thing,

F: A reliable wild card. That's who Michael is. I love it.

M: As we learn, as we get older, like, you got to have your shit together to be, uh, a hot mess. You have to create a very safe and stable container.

F: Yeah. And I must say, I met you guys when Chamberlain was pregnant, so I didn't see the first version of your relationship. But I must say that even, like, from the time I met you till now, like, I've definitely seen you, Michael, grow a lot and become a lot more responsible. And, like, it's a beautiful thing to see. But coming back to the topic of your sexual experiences together, uh, and this will be my last question before we move into, you know, your advice to people in the podcast. Um, how has that been, like, after all that turmoil you went through, how has having experiences with other people? Because now we have the story of, like, everything was difficult and then everything was fine after Rex, but what was the in between?

C: Also, just to kind of note, I think that the. My time during my pregnancy, that was a time of really building back our trust. Um, and so that was like a nine. Nine months or a year of really intimate experience with the two of us and, like, kind of going from, we're broken up, nothing to lose. We're in this together. Let's be, like, truly rawly honest and, like, see where we go. Because nothing to lose now, like, we're either going to break up or go forward. But we already, like, saw that life is okay if we split up. And then the year after, then I think we were able to, uh, really explore in a way we never explored before.

M: At that point, we were really able to have these experiences and have it be okay, have it feel right, you know, both with men and with women, um, often close friends, which is something that we'd also ruled out. Just, you know, it's like all these rules, all these things that you just don't do. Having a kid to fix a relationship, you know, sleeping with your friends. What could go wrong? Turns out, not much in our case. You know, those relationships deepen. It's not weird at all. Um, although I'm sure it could be. Um, but the point to which we've evolved and, yeah, there has been, like, a tremendous evolution, a tremendous growth over the course of our relationship. Like, remembering what an idiot I was, um, up until very recently and recognizing, um, all the ways in which I'm probably being an idiot now, but haven't realized yet. I mean, the learning curve is crazy. Um, and yet learning and discovering is a pleasure. And being able to do so, so with love and tenderness and without fear, uh, is a tremendous gift. And, you know, I think when we're hooking up with people, there'll be moments like, yeah, I mean, like, you know, seeing your girlfriend get fucked by someone. That's an experience that I had had in my head a number of times, and it was never. I was never all right with it. Then, you know, when it finally happened, you know, like, I'm. My little, like, ego, or it is in there just being like, you okay with this? You okay with this? And I'm like, yeah, I am. You know, it's, um. It's one of life's great tragedies that you can't fuck someone and go down on them at the same time. Um, and I'm like, oh, of course. You know, I gotta phone a friend. And if. And if my ultimate goal is to. Is to make her happy and to make her feel good, the ability to enlist, you know, somebody I love and trust to help out in that endeavor is fucking amazing. But, yeah, I mean, I didn't always feel that way.

C: And I think that was another turning point in our relationship is after ar. After Rex, we had our first experience with hooking up with a guy. And that was also a turning point for me of realizing, you know, what that felt like for me. And, uh, realizing that's probably how Michael feels when we hook up with a woman. And it, like, it made. Let me let go of a lot of fears and, I don't know, just like, realizing the, like, the pleasure that it brings from both sides, um, it just made me see things from a different perspective, um, and appreciate him also for allowing that experience and being open to it. And, um, I think that's something that a lot of men are still really hesitant to experience and do. And I thought that was really brave and also super sexy, um, to open himself up to. Um. Yeah, that experience would make for me and for himself too, you know, Like, I think in the end, realizing, like, it wasn't just for me, like, it's for us, you know?

F: Michael, I'm curious. Do you have any tips for guys who might want to be open to have a threesome but are having a hard time with that? Because a lot of couples are okay with playing with other women, but not with other men. I feel like there's more stigma around that.

M: Well, you realize that vulnerability is the real show of strength. And I said jokingly earlier that I'm not man enough to take a dick. Um, and this is largely true. You know, not a real deck anyway. Not at this point. When Chams is pegging me, I'm just like, the roles are totally reversed. I'm like: "Can we just cuddle a little bit?" She's like: "Shut up. Take it like a man." And it's, it's just, it's, it's very interesting, um, like to play with those roles and for, you know, I mean, somebody who's expressed themselves as more of a dom, to be submissive in some regard and you know, for us to be truly sure of ourselves and confident in our assurance, like this is, this is like the bedrock of a relationship. And yeah, most of us aren't ready, but as we go deeper with each other and in our own processes, you know, we can, we, we, we end up in these situations and we find that it, they aren't nearly as challenging as we may have imagined. At least that was the case of me.

C: Yeah. And I think like, yeah, just realizing that like so much of the reason that it's like hard for men to do this or whatever is it's just like not glamorized in the media and that you're like really selling yourself short of you and your partner of uh, like really beautiful experience. And you know, why rule that out? You know, I think it's super hot to see dudes making out. And um, it's a bummer we don't like glamorize that more. We should be, um. But yeah,

M: And it's, and it's a. Two way fucking street, man. Um, it's like the golden rule.

C: Yeah, I think that was another part like for me where I was just like pissed off. Like I was pissed off at like the unfairness and I had gone through like a real big journey of me just um, you know, exploring women and really only being into women for a bit. Um, and then realizing although I am into women at times, it depends on the women. It's like I'm into energy as I'm into men, I'm into women. Who knows what I'm into at the moment. And, and yeah, I just think it should be the same for, or uh, or men should be allowed the same freedom socially.

F: Yes, I agree. Yeah, I think that a lot of men probably don't even know that they might have a bisexual side because it's so stigmatized in heterosexual culture. Whereas for women who are mostly heterosexual, having lesbian sex or making out with a woman or whatever, it's seen as really hot, you know? But I think even if you're a man who's not actually bisexual at all or interested in exploring that side, which, again, you might be surprised to find out that you are, if you are open to it, you can still have threesomes with men without interacting with them in a sexual way and just have it be more about the woman. And I think more men should be open to have that experience and focusing more on, um, pleasuring the woman.

M: That's an excellent point. I'm super straight, unfortunately, really limiting my options. But, yeah, you can bro down well.

C: But also, it's like, okay, I, uh, think this is for, like, people that are just straight in any regard. Like, say, okay, like, I'm with you. I'm just into, like, men. But say, okay, I am, like, exploratory with women too, but that doesn't mean that I'm not turned on by men too. So, like, why wouldn't I want to explore that within our experience too? And, like, if maybe, like, you're into a woman that I'm not into, necessarily, but can I explore that as a fun experience with you? Um, and find pleasure with that?

M: Yeah. And find that you're old and then find that you're into it, um, which. Which does happen. It's happened for both of us.

C: And also being into the pleasure of the other, you know, like, if I'm finding pleasure through his eyes, um, and having fun with it for him, which then becomes pleasure for me. Um, you know, and. And I. I was able, I think, to get there because he does that for me too. Uh, and that can be, like a fun experience, you know?

F: Yeah. And going back to your comment, yes, you are into women, but you are also hetero leaning. Right. So why could Michael have two people of his preferred gender? Right. In this case, two women. And why couldn't you have two people of your preferred gender, which is men? Right. I think it's a matter of having equality in the relationship.

M: Yeah.

F: Yeah. And I also wanted to ask you about your experience being open while having a child, because not only you are open, but you are also raising Rex in a way that is really unconventional. You have brought them to festivals and gatherings, and you have always, of course, taken good care of him, but you are doing things that a lot of couples wouldn't be open to. So can you quickly speak about that like, how can you leave this open exploratory lifestyle while having a kid? Because a lot of people still don't believe that that's possible.

C: Yeah, I think, uh, I think kind of it goes back to us really just wanting to like realizing through that pregnancy journey and like the breakup journey and all the like, really coming to truths, um, realizing that we just wanted to live a ah, life that was really true to us and also realizing how important the community was for us throughout those really hard times. Like if they could be there for us throughout our breakup, getting back together, pregnancy, everything, like we really wanted them there throughout in our life and wanting to make that possible in any way we could, um, and just have fun with being parents.

M: Clichés are clichés for a reason. And um, that one about it takes a village is, is spot on. Every challenge we've had, um, not every challenge, but so many of the challenges we've had with the little guy. The um, answer is community. Is that that support that we get from our friends, um, both in terms of like practical and technical stuff, you can be with him when you like, you know, go to work or get your hair cut. And also, you know, who can be there to just kind of to help you just get out of yourself or out of a situation which can feel, you know, very claustrophobic for people who are raising kids on their own. People who are stuck in an apartment or some like [dead end call the sex] somewhere because they thought they needed to get out of the city and they find that they don't have community support, they don't have an outlet, they don't have, you know, they're what make life worth living and what make child rearing a joy instead, uh, of a burden. And yeah. And I think just m, like more than solving the world's problems, um, for us to learn and grow, um, with and from each other, um, is infinitely more attainable and also more rewarding.

C: Mhm.

M: You know, and yeah, we're shocked, um, to be having more fun now, to be having like more better sex.

C: It's so uh, fun. Like it's the most, it's the biggest trip of your entire life. You all think you're like tripping and having like these wild experiences, like have a kid. Like you will trip every day. Uh, not always a good trip, but most of the time it is. Yeah.

M: On balance I think we've been very lucky.

C: Yeah, we've been really lucky because Rex is awesome. But um, yeah, it's, it's a big fucking trip that never ends. But that's the thing to know. Like, it's never ending. It's not like a 10 minute trip, a 24 hour trip. It's a lifelong trip.

F: Yes, it's an important decision, for sure. Um, but I think Rex is also so awesome because he's a combination of you two guys and because of the way you guys are raising him and how we're all raising him as a community, which I really love. But we're nearing the end of our conversation, so my last question for you after going through this whole journey, what would be your advice to a polycurious person?

C: My advice from my perspective would be, uh, to be really honest with where you're at and to be fearless in that curiosity. Looking back, I was never close to the idea of openness. I really wanted it because I didn't see examples of monogamous relationships that were things that excited me. Um, and so I was really curious about pleasure. Just be curious about pleasure and what excites you, what brings you pleasure. And also to realize that everything is ephemeral. It doesn't have to be like this. Like, this is how it is. And I only want to have sex with you right now. And I only want to have sex. I'm always going to have sex with a million people or whatever it is. Things can be fluid and they don't. They're not static. And to not be so wrapped up in the way that you think it has to be.

M: Um, don't try to possess people. Don't try to possess things. Everything is transient, as Chamberlain said. And this idea that you can own someone and they can be uniquely yours is ludicrous. This is an artificial construct of our society aimed at making people, mostly men, feel less insecure. Uh, and so it is incumbent upon men in particular to get over their shit and to let go of this need to possess, this need to control. It's like, have a moment, have a series of moments. Enjoy them, be present for them. But know that you cannot control the ultimate outcome. And why would you want to? And we as men, and we as people in general. But again, speaking from my own vantage point as a man, like, we are the holders of space.

We need to create a space in which everyone can feel safe and comfortable to express themselves sexually. Like, people who come into our community are like: "Oh, my God, you guys are just crazy. You're. You're. You're fearless, you're free." And we're like, yes, but this is not by accident. This is not something that is derived easily. This results from creating a space in which people's needs are protected and their boundaries are respected. And it's a process of growing and evolving. But ultimately, it's up to us to create the safe space in which we can be poly and curious and still fulfilled and safe.

F: I love that. Well, this has been so wonderful. You guys are great, and I appreciate so much your honesty, um, and love you.

M: Love you, Fer. Thank you.

C: Thanks for having us.

F: Thank you guys for listening. Don't go just yet. As I mentioned at the beginning of the episode, next you'll hear my conversation with Mariah. Um, today, as you guys know, is our last episode, so we just wanted to kind of check in with Mariah and just have the opportunity to finish this together since we started it together. So here it is, Mariah.

Mariah: Yeah. So, um, I know that there are a lot of new listeners here, so if you don't know me, um, you know, I started this project with Fer two years ago, and, um, yeah, you'll find little episodes sprinkled through, uh, the seasons of my journey of kind of going from a polyamorous relationship, finding someone that was a secondary, uh, my primary breaking up, and then my secondary becoming my primary. And, um, you know, now that relationship, uh, has also kind of come to a cycle close. We broke up somewhat recently and, you know, still kind of going through that. It's been, you know, a little difficult and also a very big transitional phase for me. And what I'm trying. Trying to do now is more focus on the future and what I want to create of, uh. Okay, what will dating look like for me in the future?

Whenever I'm ready. And right now I'm not. I am m. Just really trying to focus on myself, too, and that relationship with myself. I have a lot of work to do of creating that safety in myself first, so that when I am ready to open up to somebody, then it'll be coming from a healthier place of feeling like I'm enough. And the reason why you haven't heard from me in a while, um, I think we talked about this a little bit in one of the past episodes, but I opened up a business called Costume Closet, and that's been just really fulfilling a lot of my time, a lot of my energy. And Polycurious was one of those things that I had to kind of just step away from so that I had some space to grow in my own ways. I missed you all, though. And of course, I've missed co-hosting with Fer and, um, being involved but, you know, just seeing how everything has been growing and still being kept in the loop of how much this has helped people. I'm so proud of you.

F: Thank you. Proud of you, too. Um, and you know, you're always going to be part of it because there's already like three or four episodes about your journey, about our relationship. And I will definitely make sure to link all of those in the show notes for people who might want to catch up. And I'm so glad to see you, you know, working hard on your business and killing it. And for those of you who might not fully know what it is, Costume Closet basically is like an underground dollhouse where you get to rent or buy festival wear. So for those of you who are in New York, uh, you should definitely check it out. Link in the show notes as well.

M: Yeah. Well, thanks for the plug. Um, and yes, please come play dress up with me. Um, but there's been so many other beautiful changes because with my upbringing and the work that I did before Costume Closet, I was in a very male dominated industry and, um, didn't feel like I could truly be myself back then. And now I feel like I'm getting to be myself more than ever and I'm accepted for that. And, um, it's really lovely to see that from my friends in the community circling back to relationships again. I just kind of need to find that same sort of care and love for who I am right now.

F: Yeah. I would say from my perspective, being with you in this journey, I've always seen how, like, social you are and how much you love to be around people and being in partnership. It's really good to see you, like, recognize that as well and kind of take the time to do your inner work before you open yourself up to partnership in whatever shape or form, whether it's monogamous or non- monogamous. So I would say for listeners out there, today's takeaway is also that you should take time to fill your cup. That's a process that I've also been going through as I age. And that's also one of the reasons why Polycurious is ending for now. Because I need to take some things off my plate and focus on coaching and, um, focus on myself. Although it's been truly amazing and it has changed my life, I will probably continue releasing episodes at some point in life. I'm going to miss you guys so much. So with that, thank you for listening to Polycurious.

M: Yes, thank you.

F: And we love you so much.