Abbey: Mothers do go and have a coffee with their friend. Why couldn't I take a little bit of time for myself to connect with the lover? And I'm really glad that I did because I think it reminded me of, you know, myself as an individual, as a, you know, person who, you know, my sexuality is for me, my desires, all of that. Because in motherhood, of course, you can get so beautifully focused into your child, which is the way that it's meant to be. But it was like a remembering of, okay, but I'm also this other person as well. I'm both.

Fernanda: Hi, everyone. Welcome to Polycurious. I am Fer, your host, and I am so excited to be back, especially because I took a longer than usual break because I was focusing on my work as a coach. I've been helping people who are opening up their relationship or just couples who feel like they want to improve their communication skills. So if you feel like you also need some help and would like to schedule a free exploratory call with me, you can go to polycurious.com and send me a message. And that's actually, uh, an exciting announcement that I wanted to share with you. We have a website now. There you can also find resources like a guide to opening up that I created and a link to join our WhatsApp group.

So if you're interested, you just have to go to polycurious.com today I, uh, bring you the first episode of our Polyparents miniseries. So you'll hear from people who are non-monogamous and are going through different stages of the parenting journey, from pregnancy to being empty nesters. They'll share their experiences for us to learn from.

And I, um, wanted to create this series partly because when people find out I am, um, in an open relationship with my partner of over five years, that we do plan to marry and have children, the first thing they ask is, are you planning on staying open after you have kids? And I have never quite understood why people have this idea that once you have kids, your life outside your family is over. So with this series, I wanted to challenge that idea a little bit. I mean, I am sure that especially at first, it will be time consuming and finding time to date will be harder. But eventually I feel like dating will be a really important thing for me to do, to have a little break from family life, to reconnect with my independence and come back more energized. And in today's episode, we talk about that, how having that break is so important, especially for mothers. I talked to Abbey and Liam, the couple behind the Evolving Love Project, a platform that explores non-monogamy and conscious relationships through their podcast and Abbey's beautiful writing on Substack. But before we get into today's episode, I wanted to give you a quick life update, because a lot has changed in my life lately. So, back in September, Seth and I actually moved away from New York because we're looking to buy a house and eventually have kids. And we just felt like New York wasn't the best place to do that. So we've been for the past half a year traveling and spending one month at a time in different cities. So far we've been in Texas, and right now we're in Colorado. Next we're going to California, and hopefully by the end of the summer, we'll decide where we want to settle. So even though living in New York was a little scary because we have a beautiful community of people there, and it took me a long time to feel like I really belonged somewhere besides Mexico, where I'm from, it's been a really great experience. I realized that it's easier for me to make friends than I thought it would be. I even went on a couple of dates back in October when I was in Austin. And I actually wanted to give you a quick tip that really changed the dating game for me, which is exchanging voice messages before deciding to meet someone.

So the way I do that is that whenever they ask a question that maybe required a more elaborate answer, I mean, it could even just be, what do you do? I would just say: "Actually, I'd rather just send you a, ah, voice message. Can I have your number?" Then I'd send them a voice message answering their question, and then they would send a voice message back. And seriously, immediately I would know if I'd be attracted to this person. So I would decide whether I wanted to see them or not. You really get to see their personality, their vibe. And after I started doing that, all my dates have been great, even if they ended up just becoming friends. So I highly recommend you try that out if you are actively dating at the moment and talking about dating. I actually met Liam, who I interviewed today through a dating app, uh, back in New York. It must have been about a year and a half ago. And in our conversation, we actually get to talk about that experience. We also talk about how Abbey and Liam, um, feel like non-monogamy is actually making them better parents. We talk about gender expectations, especially when it comes to motherhood. And they even share how after having their son, they were Having a, uh, harder time connecting sexually and what they did to fix that. If you like what you hear today, I highly recommend you check out the Evolving Love podcast and their substack, evolvingloveproject.substack.com and if you're in Australia, you can join their retreats or conversation evenings by going to their website. You can, of course, find all those links in the show notes, as well as links to resources that we discussed or even that we just barely mentioned in the podcast.

And before we start, I just want to quickly talk about STDcheck, a platform that makes it extremely easy to get tested. You can pay online, make an appointment, and go to one of their facilities in the US that same day. And unlike, um, other places that take weeks to send you the results, they actually give you the results in just one to two days. So if you want a $10 discount on STD testing, just follow the link in the show notes or on our website, polycurious.com

One last note before we go into today's episode. My recorder actually ran out of battery halfway through the interview, so you'll notice a slight change in audio quality on my side. But I know you will forgive me because this episode is so amazing.

Otherwise. Okay, guys, without further delay, here's my interview with Abbey and Liam, um, from the Evolving Love Project.

F: So, Abbey and Liam, welcome. I'm so excited to have this conversation. I've been following you and I've been listening to your podcast, and I had the opportunity to meet Liam in person and to be briefly in touch with you, Abbey. And I'm just so excited to finally be able to connect in this way and also have other people listen to our conversation.

A: Oh, thank you so much for inviting us on. We've been really looking forward to this conversation as well. And, yeah, it's great. I'm really looking forward to having this chat with you because I know that Liam has already met you. You two have already, um, you know, had a little bit of time together. So I'm really looking forward to, um, this conversation today, too.

Liam: Yeah, thanks for having us.

F: Yeah. And actually, why don't we start there? I did want to confess to the listeners how Liam and I met. We connected through Feeld, but I wasn't really dating at the moment. I was, I don't know, just thrown off by experiences that I had had and just feeling like I didn't want to put my time and energy on that. And then Liam messaged, um, me on my Polycurious Instagram, and he was like, my wife and I have a podcast as well. And, um, I'm going on a trip to New York. And I don't remember if you told me then or later. Uh, she encouraged me to go out, etcetera. And I was like, I don't know, like, I was like, well, he looks really cute. The fact that, like, he has a podcast, sure. Like, you know, that means that he's probably, um, equipped in non-monogamy, which is something that I'm increasingly, you know, looking for people who have communication skills and all of that. But I was still like, I promised myself that I would not be going out. So it took me a little bit, but then I listened to one of the podcast episodes and I was like, yeah, I mean, to be honest with you, like, especially after listening to your accent, I was like, okay, yes, love that accent. And also obviously what you guys were saying and everything and your relationship, because that's another thing. Um, you know, I like to date people who have strong relationships with their partners as well. So, yeah, so we did end up meeting up just for, ah, a quick date. And yeah, it was really lovely to connect with you. Um, and I remember, Abbey, you texted me afterwards. I can't remember exactly what you said, but you were like: "Oh, I heard that you guys met, nice to meet you online" or whatever. I don't know, something really sweet. And I was like: "Oh, that's so sweet" that you took the time to reach out to me and mention that. Um, so, yeah, just wanted to share that, but not sure if you guys have anything to add to that little story.

L: Yeah, well, I remember being in Australia and I knew that I was about to embark on this trip over to New York. So I thought in Australia, I don't know what it's like in the Feeld, um, app in America, but in Australia you can change your location to some of the major centers. So I changed it to the New York center, and I was swiping through and in Canberra especially, which is where we live in Australia, there's not too many people. So you can basically swipe for about two minutes and then you get to the end, uh, of the, of the kind of, uh, mass of people. But then when I was swiping through in New York, it was kind of this never ending, never ending list of profiles. But then I did stumble across yours. And I think from memory in the profile at the time, you had written, I'm actually not actively dating. And so I was like, that's a bummer because she's beautiful. And I'd love to go on a date with her. And then I did, uh, because you had linked your Polycurious, I went and like, deep dived, you know, a bunch of episodes and then plucked, uh, up the courage to message you. And I think initially we'd, we were like: "Oh, let's just, uh, let's just catch up and we can chat about podcasts." I think that was my, like, way to kind of, like, get on a date. And then, uh, as soon as you walked, I remember the bar was. It was in, uh, is Bush. Uh, no, not Bushwick

A: It was in Bed Stuy.

L: Bed Stuy.

F: So, yeah, I love that Abbey knows his details.

A: I know what's going on.

L: Yeah, Abbey's all over it. I'm glad someone remembers. And then. But I remember you walking in, and as soon as you walked in, I was like: "Oh, my goodness, she's extremely beautiful." And then we proceeded to have a lovely date. So I have fond, fond memories.

F: Yeah. I thought it was really cute that Abbey was like: "Come on, Liam, you're gonna be out, go on a date." You know what I mean? Like, just like that encouraging attitude. So I'm just wondering, like, from your side, Abbey, where was that coming from of, uh, like, wanting him to, like, go out and have fun when he was on a trip?

A: Well, I was excited for Liam to go back to New York and date and to. And to also just, you know, reconnect with friends that we have over there and have that experience. And it was an interesting thing. I sort of, even though I was here in Canberra and I was still, you know, day to day life and, you know, with our son, um, it was really exciting. I sort of felt like I was living vicariously through Liam as well while he, he was away. So even though I wasn't the person that was going on the dates or catching up with the friends, I was like, oh, this is awesome that, you know, he's going back and doing that. And I remember laughing at him when he was like: "Oh, I found, um, you know, there's this really beautiful woman and she's a podcaster as well, and she's not dating. But I think we're just going to catch up for, you know, like a coffee or like a, you know, a drink or something. But I think it's just, you know, it's like, you know, podcasting, networking." And I was like, Liam, you are. Ah, just. Just cut it. I know you. I know you. And you know, uh, from your end, it would definitely be a date. He showed me a photo of you and I was like: "Oh, come on." Like, of course, you know, um, you would be wanting it to be like a date date.

L: You saw right through it.

A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it was really interesting, you know, and, uh, yeah, it was one of those things where, you know, I was really excited for Liam to go on the date and everything, but, you know, I'm not gonna lie, there was, like, that moment where I was like: "Oh, I wish that I was in New York as well. And I wish that I was, you know, with Liam to, like, meet you, too." Or there was that sort of moment of you sort of stepping back into that world and the sort of reality of, you know, well, I'm here, um, you know, with our son, which is where I need to be. But, yeah, it definitely did bring up some things for me as. So as much as I was excited for Liam to go on the date, of course there were the other emotions that came along with that, too.

F: Yeah. Yeah. And thank you for sharing that, because I think that a lot of people talk about compersion being the opposite of jealousy. And I'm not saying that what you felt was exactly jealousy, but my point is that it's not necessarily the opposite. Like, you can feel both things. You can be super excited for Liam to go out, and you can also be like, oh, but I also, like, feel a little weird. Like, I wish I was there. Right. And I think that it's important to acknowledge that you can feel both things at the same time and still choose to act with the, uh, positive feeling, with the feeling of, like, wanting him to explore and have fun as opposed to with the, you know, most difficult feeling. And then maybe being like, actually, like, don't. Don't have fun, because I want to have fun and I can't, you know?

A: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it did. That did sort of come up for me a little bit, actually, while, um, Liam was on that date with you. Like, I remember we used to go out to bars in Brooklyn and. And have our dates or be dating other people. And then it was just like that reality as well, of, like, wow, my life has. My life has changed a lot. You know, like, I'm, um, you know, I'm mum life, and. And there were those sort of feelings that came up around sort of, you know, um, you know, when you just see someone on the Instagram. Like, I remember going on your Instagram and, like, looking at photos of you, I think, when you were on the date, and I was like: "Oh, wow, she's like. She's so cool and beautiful, and you know, she's not a mom." You know, I'm sort of like, that's so amazing, like the freedom that she has. And it's just, it always fascinates me, like, what these, um, situations can bring up.

F: So, yeah, and I'm on the other side looking at your Instagram and be like: "Oh, my God, she's like the coolest mom ever. She's also very hot. She's a really good writer." So, you know, it's a, uh, it's always interesting how those things go. But I'm, uh, glad that, you know, we're actually getting to talk right now and meet each other as humans and not just Instagram figures, you know.

A: That's right. That's right. Because we can tend to inflate one another as well, you know. And, um, I will say, you know, it was a new thing, I think. Like, Liam has dated other women who I haven't met before, but it's not. It doesn't happen that often for us just because we're quite sort of social people and we tend to sort of be. And you know, we have like, non-monogamous friends and they'll sort of, you know, will meet me along the way quite early on. So it was just, yeah, it was an interesting, um, an interesting experience of like, you know, I hadn't, I hadn't met you yet. So, yeah, it's always.

L: And then it's also really interesting from my, um, kind of vantage point as well, because I want to be super sensitive to how Abbey's feeling and the insecurities that might be coming up or, you know, these different things that we talked about. And I was doing that, you know, from New York a lot of the time, kind of like lots of messaging back and forth, being like, you know: "Are you comfortable with this? Like, how do you feel? Like, is there anything you want to talk about?" And making sure that the lines of communication between us were really open so that no matter what, uh, was the kind of source of how Abbey was feeling, that we could kind of chat through it and kind of work through it. And in the end, I get to go on a wonderful date with you.

F: Yeah. Well, that's so sweet that you guys are so, you know, checking in with one another and just making sure that whatever you do in your individual exploration, you're also considering the other person. I feel like some people have a hard time doing that. It's either I'm completely free or I'm completely attached. And they don't understand that you can have freedom and also, just communicate with your partner and make sure that they're okay with you having that freedom. Right. But Abbey, you mentioned something about your past life and your current life. Were you referring to your life in New York and your life in Australia, or were you referring to your life pre having a, ah, child and after having a child? And how was that difference?

A: I was actually referring to, um, our life in New York because I have so many special memories. And we were there for five and a half years, Liam and I, and we had, um, so many big, you know, things sort of happen for us as far as our relationship and friendships and our opening up journey, you know, that started in New York. So I have a lot of very happy, special, sentimental feelings to New York. You know, I. I gave birth to our son in the living room of our apartment that we lived in.

F: Oh, wow.

A: Uh, I had him in New York and he was little Bubba, always strapped to our chest, uh, for the first year of his life in New York. And then we moved back at the end of 2019. You know, like, we were very, very big part of our world and our story and our non- monogamous journey. So, um, you know, I think when Liam was back in Brooklyn and, you know, dating and walking the streets that we walked so many times, there was that, like, longing for that or just the nostalgia, just like that sweet, you know, missing of that. And then, you know, when you're getting lunch ready for a little person and all of that's happening and it's like just that moment of like, oh, you know, that was a really different chapter and, you know, I'm here in a different time zone and, you know, Liam's going on a date, you know, with, um, with you. And just, you know, I'm just like, oh, wow, like we're in. It's like we were in different worlds.

F: Yeah.

A: Just really interesting.

L: And it felt like that for me as well. You know, here I am in Fifth Avenue, like, this is, this is so fun. And I also was sad that you weren't with me on the trip as well. And in an ideal world, we would have been able to, you know, all be there. Um, so there was definitely a part of me that felt guilty, um, obviously not guilty enough to not go on a great date. But, uh, it was, it was one of those things where I was conscious of, uh, you know, the fact that you were kind of missing out as well.

A: But I would say that you were, uh, just like, your awareness of that really meant a lot to me. And also, you know, when you came home. You're always encouraging for me to take time for myself or, you know, go and spend time with my girlfriends or if there's somebody who I want to go on a date with or something like that, you know, it was lovely when you came back. You were taking the reins of.

A: It was your time to. Your time to go on some dates, I think.

F: Oh, I love that. I love that. And I think that's really important, how to find that balance of, sure, I'm a mom or I'm a dad, and I have that life. But also I am an independent person who likes to date sometimes, who likes to have time for their own. So I'm curious how that journey has been for both of you balancing that, you know, because I imagine. And I always wonder, right, Because I've. I've had friends who have kids who, you know, are out with me or, uh, like at a festival or whatever, and they're like: "Oh, I miss my kid," which I totally understand. And I feel like I would be the same. And I always wonder, would that detract from my experience? Would everything absolutely change after I have a child? Because I'm always going to be thinking about them as opposed to be completely thinking about myself. So I'm just curious how that experience has been for both of you.

L: Yeah, I think it is something that is constantly renegotiated for me, certainly, and I think probably for you as well, although I won't speak for you, but I feel like for me, at different stages of our son's life, it's been more involved emotionally or physically. Just like being there, like those first kind of initial years, you know, just, uh, just caring for him. But now it's kind of a different. A different thing. It's more like, there is always a sense of I'm always thinking about him. Um, so it's like you're saying, like, if I. If we were at a festival together, you know, as fun, as much fun as we're having at a festival together, we're still thinking, I wonder. I wonder how our son's going, or I wonder what he's doing. I wonder what he's up to. And I think that just never escapes. Escapes you. Um, but a beautiful thing about non-monogamy is it does give you a chance to have that little sense of escape. Whether it's, uh, Abbey and I experiencing something together or maybe separately, um, it allows you a time to sometimes kind of go into like a flow state of switching off and going, I'm not a parent. Right now I can actually turn off and then just click back right into it after this experience.

A: And I think so much of that talks to the support that we have in our lives and the connection that we have with our son as well. Like, if I'm to go on a date with somebody for, you know, a couple of hours or for dinner and our son is with Liam, um, like, I don't have to worry. There's no part of me that's worried about, like, is he okay? Is he like, happy, you know, with his dad? Like, I don't need to like rush home because he's with his dad. And you two have an incredible bond. The other two carers that we have for him are both of his grandmothers. So we're very, very fortunate. We know that not everybody has this type of support in their lives, but we're really lucky to have grandparents, um, you know, in the same city as us who are very involved and loving and we all have wonderful relationships. So it's really wonderful that, you know, when our son is with, you know, um, my mom or Liam's mom, you know, he's having a great time and it's a special experience for them and for him. So that makes a really big difference. We know that he's not like, you know, crying for us to come home. He's just like having the best time.

L: Yeah. And allows you to not feel that sense of guilt which can sometimes creep in, you know, with an experience like that. Um, and also I'm trying to actively, as much as possible, strip away any guilt that you might feel as a mother. Because there's so much preconditioning. There's so many, um, there's so many instances where, you know, the kind of, the common trope is that mothers should not have things for themselves. They should be self sacrificing. It should all be about the child. Whereas for me, I actively want to encourage you to kind of have that sense of self, to have that sense of exploration. And if I can support that by being a father and encouraging you to go out on a date, I think that is a gift that we can give to our partners, uh, within these, these types of relationship frameworks.

A: Yeah, it's really interesting the sort of balancing with the parenting and the non-monogamy. And I think so much comes down to the support that you get from your partner. Liam has always, uh, supported me with, you know, if I ever want to go on a date with somebody, he just naturally, he's a very compulsive person. And he's all about it and very genuinely excited at the thought. So, you know, I don't always have the bandwidth to date, um, but when I do, Liam is there. Encouraging. But I remember the first date that I went on after becoming a mother was when our son was. He was about five months old. And, you know, I was breastfeeding on demand, you know, around the clock at that time. And very attached. You know, I didn't really have much time away from him. And that was, you know, I was very fortunate to be able to be with him so much. And I wasn't. I didn't want to be away from him for long periods of time. Um, so, you know, logistics as a parent is a huge thing, um, you know, with non- monogamy and dating. And I was so fortunate that when a past lover of mine who I was with from before we were parents, he was actually visiting New York from London. He'd moved to London and, you know, he was in town. And Liam was like: "Why don't you just. Why don't you just go for a date if you feel like it? You know, he'd love to catch up with you. And of course we can have a nice family, catch up with him where he gets to meet our son." And we did do that, but Liam was like: "You know, it's okay. Like, you're allowed to go out for a couple of hours if you want to. There's nothing wrong with that. And, you know, we can just time it in a way where you can, you know, feed baby and he'll be asleep." And then Liam wore him in the carrier and, you know, went out and actually walked around Prospect Park a bunch of times so that I could then get dressed up, do my hair, put my makeup on, feel myself feel good, and, you know, just went to a bar very close by, to our apartment. And, you know, I had this amazing date with this, you know, beautiful man who's now a dear friend, but he was a very sort of significant, uh, partner to me. And it was just incredible. And I. And I think I was able to do that because I knew that our son was close by, he was with his dad. If there was ever going to be an emergency, you know, Liam would have called me. And yeah, it was incredibly amazing. And I remember coming back from that and I felt so, like, alive. I felt really, like, great about that. And you were really excited.

L: Very.

A: Yeah. And so it can be done, but I think it would have been harder if there had been any type of negativity or discomfort from Liam or any moment where he had said, do you think it's the right thing to leave your baby? I would have absolutely shut down.

F: Yeah.

A: And just would have gone. Of course, you know, in motherhood, it's such a postpartum and a newborn, it's such a sensitive time. You know, you just try. Everything is for your baby. Everything. And so I think if Liam hadn't have been so supportive, I would have thought, oh, you know, is this okay to do this? When in reality, it's like mothers do go and have a coffee with their friend or they, you know, their friend from yoga or whatever, it is like, we're allowed to do that. It's like, why couldn't I go and have this lovely little bit of. Just take a little bit of time for myself to connect with the lover? And I'm really glad that I did, because I think it reminded me of, you know, myself as an individual, as a, you know, person who, you know, my sexuality is for me, my desires, all of that. Because in motherhood, of course, you can get so, you know, beautifully focused into your child, which is the way that it's meant to be, but that can also coexist and be the main thing in your life. But then it was like a remembering of, okay, but I'm also. I'm also this other person as well. I'm, um. Both. I'm both of these people.

F: Yeah. You know, even though I don't have kids, I can identify in the sense that when I go on a date, I come back to my relationship being, like, actually so much more into my partner. And, you know, this might be hard to understand for people who haven't experienced it. I mean, it even took me by surprise. But it's like, because you get to feel your own self. You get to feel, um, desired or you get to have fun or whatever it is. It's like you can come back to, then go and be a mom, or go and be a primary partner and feel really good about yourself. So in a way, even though I know that a lot of people would say, oh, that's so selfish, and, you know, all the things that I'm sure that you've heard, especially after coming out, about. About your relationship, actually it's better for your son or for your partner when you have a life outside and you can come back and feel good about yourself, because otherwise, if you feel like you're trapped, you're not feeling good about yourself, then you are not going to be as good of a mother or as good as of a father or a partner. Right. So I think that that's a part that people don't really understand sometimes. You know.

A: You're absolutely right. That is the biggest misconception, um, around non-monogamous parents and non-monogamous mothers in particular. You know, it's like selfish. The fact that you would even give any person, any time who's not in your family unit, that means that, you know, you're not, you're not giving enough to your child. You know, as mothers, we can really sometimes feel like maybe we don't fully belong to ourselves anymore. And because motherhood can demand so much of us, you know, from the birth, from the recovery from breastfeeding, from really giving and giving and giving, giving your body, giving all of your attention to this beautiful little being. And there's something really wonderful about having that remembrance of. But my body is also mine, you know?

F: Yeah. Yeah. Beautifully said. Yeah. And, you know, I think that even though we would like to think, okay, we're going to be equals in the relationship, the caregiver giving responsibilities are going to be split, I always think about how hard is for that to become a, uh, reality. Even if we have the best intentions, first of all, because most often than not, the man earns more money. So, you know, it makes more sense for the family to then sacrifice the woman's job. Even if you believe in equality, it just makes more sense. Right. But even then, we, I don't think we realize how like, unconsciously we fall into these roles. Even if we believe we're feminists and all of that. There's also what we're used to seeing, right? We see mothers taking care of their kids more than we see fathers taking care of their kids. So even if we want to do it differently, we're humans, we just model what we see. Right. So I think it's beautiful to see partners like Liam, or I'm sure Seth will be one of those who actually are like, no, you go on a date, you need to do your thing. And it's very, very rare to find those men. And, uh, I'm so glad that you know, that you, you found one and, um, that you are able to do that. So I'm wondering if you have any experiences with what I'm just sharing right now.

A: Yeah.

L: Yeah. Well, there's, uh, I think in terms of the way in which kind of roles kind of pervade the way in which we kind of move through the world with our relationships, I definitely had to combat, uh, some of the traditional tropes of masculinity within our relationship, especially when Abbey was first kind of exploring. So Abbey's dated separately to me for a lot longer than I've dated separately. So, um, when we first were exploring that, um, I had this sense of a good, ah, male partner is someone who is kind of overprotective, um, is very tightly held in the relationship, is very overly jealous, you know, uh, is going to defend the honor of their partner at any point. And I thought, oh, okay, so if I'm feeling comfortable and if I'm encouraging of Abbey going on dates with other men, does this kind of fly in the face of what I've been taught is a traditional role of masculinity within relationships? And so that was something that I grappled with mostly because I really felt that I was being true to myself, and I felt like I was still had, um, that strong masculinity within myself. But I did have these abilities to kind of be comfortable with Abbey going out and being really supportive of that.

And the only way to really, uh, kind of support this newfound interrogation of my masculinity was to look to podcasts or look to books. I remember reading Mating in Captivity, the Esther Perel book, and that was one of the first texts that we read. And I thought, oh, there's other men like me. And they seem to be good examples of men and good examples of male partners and all that kind of thing. So in a way, in a similar way to the tales that we're told about motherhood, uh, I think men are also told a lot of things about masculinity, and some of us have to deprogram it more than others due to different circumstances. Uh, but, yeah, this is definitely something that I. I continue to think about. You know, we've had some interesting situations where, you know, Abbey's dated someone and that. That, uh, person that Abbey's dating, the guy, has been totally comfortable with me because I make them feel really secure. But then as soon as Abbey starts dating another guy, that guy will get jealous of the new guy. So it's not even me that's getting jealous. It's like this new masculine energy is suddenly kind of being protective of Abbey, and I'm kind of looking on from the sidelines thinking: “Mate, I don't know if you're doing this right. You know, it's. It's. You don't need to do this. Um, so, yeah, it is. It's definitely something.” Those kind of the tales that we're told and masculinity and uh, motherhood and all these things I think about a lot.

A: I think a lot of it comes down to your approach to life, Liam, and how you look at the world and relationship in quite a holistic. And I think something that could be really helpful to many men. And like you said, Fer, you know, there are many men who couldn't sort of wrap their head around, you know, their partner having this time for this for themselves, um, is like if we, if we look, if we step back and if we step back from our own potential, you know, insecurities or the social programming or what we expect from a mother and step back like Liam has done and looked at the bigger picture, it's like, what an amazing benefit to our relationship. For me as a mother who's going through all of these changes, you know, and these are big physical changes too. You know, it's like when you have a baby, you have a whole new body to get used to. There's so many changes. You go from having one body to then having a pregnant body. That's a huge change. Then you have a, have a postpartum body. And all of these things are wonderful and beautiful, but there's so many changes that can happen. But, you know, your encouragement of saying, you're still you, there's still that young woman in you who I met all of those years ago. She's still in there. You know, like, go and go and connect in with her again, you know, looking at the bigger, uh, picture of my happiness and then it's like how I can then bring that into my life. And I think particularly as women and these gender roles that we can easily fall into. You know, it's like if all of the energy is going towards the parenting, there can be, um, you know, other losses in, you know, in the broader scheme of things. A loss of a sense of self, sometimes a loss of the connection in your intimate life with your partner. You know, because there are so many things that play with, like being over touched. You know, when you're a mom, you're holding a baby, they want your body all of the time, you know, so then to sort of go from a transition of, you know, I've been holding my baby all day, but I do want to connect with you on an intimate level. But I'm all touched out. Like my body can't give to another, to another person right now. So, you know, it's just like, not even necessarily that you need to be non, um, monogamous to have this, but to be able to have some time to yourself as well, to, like, recalibrate if you're away from your children. You might listen to a podcast that maybe isn't about parenting. You know, I do know many mothers when they have their time away from their children, you know, they're researching how to be a parent, they're shopping for their children. Or, you know, I do know women whose husbands, um, take the children out of a Saturday morning so that their wives can have a break to clean the house and get on top of the house. You know, And I've had to say to some friends, you know, you staying at home to clean the house and listen to a podcast on parenting isn't fully a break from mothering. You know, it's okay to do something that's for you. Yeah.

And I think I've been lucky with Liam because Liam can sort of look at that bigger picture for me and for our relationship, and it's been really good.

F: Yeah.

L: And it's also a question of, uh, on a domestic level, is making sure that your bandwidth isn't overloaded by having to be on top of everything. You know, it's not like you're doing all the cleaning and you're doing all the washing. And, you know, I think it's up to both partners to be contributing for all of that kind of stuff. And then it creates the space that if you are non-monogamous, you're like: "Oh, actually, the house is tidy and I can go out on a date tonight and I'm not going to feel guilty about it at all." You know, there's. There's ways in which that you can, uh, sort out a domestic environment as a. As a partner that really give foundations to healthy, um, exterior explorations.

A: Yeah, that's a good. I've had a. There was something recently where Liam was like: "Oh, you should go on a date." You know, someone's messaged me and Liam was like, why don't you go on a date? And I was like, I can't go on a date when, like, I need to do a. I need to, you know, get on top of the cleaning and the washing and like, all of that. Liam's just like, I'll do it, don't worry. You know, I'm like: "Oh, okay."

F: I love that. You know, I was going to ask for practical tips. And there it is. You know, husbands or just fathers out there pick up the slack, you know, so your wife can go on a date every once in a while. It's like, for your benefit too, you know, like, she's going to come home happy and she's going to be a better mother, she's going to be a better partner. Um, but yeah, outside of that, I'm curious, how was that transition for you guys from being childless to having a kid? Um, and how did that affect your relationship?

L: Well, I think the initial stages of parenthood was just all consuming. I mean, it's very intense. Uh, and I don't think we'd read a lot about birth itself because we had a home birth and we had this. We ended up very thankfully having a beautiful home birth. But we'd done so much research and podcasting and we listened to all the things and then the birth was amazing. But then as soon as our son was born, I realized: "Oh, shit, I probably should have read some books about what to do, you know, in the first year or something." So then it kind of felt like this floundering around and just doing the best that we could, you know, just, uh, you know, just all the things and just kind of running into the fire, so to speak, within parenthood. So those initial stages, um, were really just trying to come to grips with it. And I think as a father, and I speak to a lot of fathers about this, um, and it's. It's a view that is held quite, um, uh, by quite a few, is that you really don't realize how much the.

The uh, perspective of the mother will change and how it will all become about the child. And as a father, that can feel really intense because you've gone from having this sense of this partner who's completely devoted, um, to you and you're the sole kind of point of the fixation. And then suddenly there's a child and it's almost like the blinders are on. And I just felt like a servant for the first, uh, and not in a hot way for the first, like six months of our, uh, son being born. It was like basically my job was to make sure Abbey was doing great. She was breastfeeding, she was always fed with water. Um, you know, you spent a lot of it on the couch. But as those initial intense moments of, uh, parenting started to subside, it began to open up different ways in which as parents and as lovers, we could actually reconnect with each other. And then also, um, eventually kind of explore non- monogamy again. And it was. And the non-monogamy was actually something that I wouldn't say, maybe saying it was a light at the end of the tunnel, felt it would be overstating it too much. But it was something to look forward to. It was like: "Oh, when are we going to go to a sex party again? I wonder how long it's going to take us, uh, to get back out and meeting people or reconnecting with friends" and, and so, uh, yeah, I think, yeah, that was my experience.

A: We definitely had an awareness of the season that we were in. It was like: "Okay, well, we're still Abbey and Liam. We've had our baby. We're in it right now." And as you said, Liam, there was that understanding of, like, this stage, this newborn stage, is not forever. Everything is just like a beautiful chapter to enjoy. And yeah, I think that. I think the understanding that we would come out the other end of it was really exciting, but also enjoying it so not wishing it away by any means. It's so precious to have that love with a newborn.

And, you know, we just love being with him and love every moment. And all of that time on the couch, breastfeeding, and Liam just bringing me glasses of water and food, you know, all of the time because he so incredibly dehydrated. Um, you know, it's just. It's. It's a beautiful moment for. For what it is. And, um, it's really interesting because the tunnel vision. I think you're right, Liam. We didn't really expect it to be so extreme. But, you know, I think there's something really just biological and in the nature. And in the nature. It's like when our son was born, it was like everything just went straight to him. You know, I couldn't think really about anything that wasn't about him. And Liam did. It's true, Liam, you did become this sort of helper to me. I'm hungry, and I need this, and our son needs that. And, you know, you. You sort of came into that. Into that role. But one thing that we did when we did start, um, being intimate with each other again, if you don't mind us, uh, going this way a little bit, please do. Um, because I was so, um, you know, over touched by holding our son the whole time and having him in my arms. Um, not that Liam wasn't available to help him. I just wanted him with me a lot. You know, that's just.

L: And he was feeding, just.

A: And he was just feeding. He was just a big breastfeeding baby. Um, what Liam and I did was actually we had to get in, sort of get back into the emotional, sort of mental, sexual connection with each other. So I remember times where Liam would be in a different room, our son would be asleep. He'd be in my arms, but Liam and I would actually start, um, sexting each other. We'd start messaging each other because I wouldn't have been able to transition from, uh, being on the couch with my son to then putting him down to then going straight to bed with Liam and trying to be, you know, having foreplay and then moving into sex. I really needed to kind of get there emotionally first. And that was kind of the space where there's no pressure on my body. There's not. I haven't gone from one being who just, you know, latched, uh, onto me straight into the arms of Liam. There had to be this, like, in between moment. So we really upped our sexting game with each other again.

L: It was already pretty strong, I must.

A: Say, which has always been really strong. We've always loved that. But it was just incredible to be able to come back into that and to sort of find our way sexually through stories or fantasies or reminiscing about the, you know, previous chapter. Ah, you know, before parent life. And then that would then, um, you know, get me sort of feeling in that zone again. And then I'd say, okay, well, I'm going to put the baby down and then I'm just going to have a quick shower and then I'm going to come to bed. And I was already there. I was like in that space because we'd been having that mental and emotional foreplay that then when we went into having sex, I didn't feel like you were another person sort of all over me. It was like a real. I had the real desire there because I have to be mentally and emotionally stimulated. You know, I'm not just like a straight, physical person. So, yeah, you know, we did things like that to sort of, um, make it, make it happen for us.

F: Yeah, I love that tip. I think it's a great tip. I mean, obviously it might work for some people. For some people, maybe that's not their thing, but just the idea of getting creative and putting a little bit of thought and effort into, okay, we're in this period. It's harder for us to connect sexually because, you know, we have a child, we're busy, we're tired, I'm over touched, all of these things. So what can we do to actually make this happen? Because I think a lot of people just have this idea that sex needs to be like this spontaneous. Like all of the sudden we're, like, feeling so horny and it just happens. And you don't have to plan it and you don't have to think about it and you don't have to talk about it. And it just, it's supposed to just flow naturally. And if it doesn't flow naturally, then that means that we're not sexually connected and I should go and like, find someone else or something. But if you're going to have a kid together and if you're planning on being many years together, there are going to be periods where you're not as sexually aroused or not in the mood, whether it's because you have a child or other things that are happening in your life. And you have to make an effort to make that part of your life work. And that might require planning and getting creative with texting or doing things like that. So thank you so much for sharing that tip because I think a lot of people would benefit from seeing it in that way, you know, as opposed to being like, oh, now we're parents, we don't have sex. This is just how things are, you know?

L: Yeah. I think it always will take effort to cultivate a long term kind of erotic connection. And Abbey and I are very lucky in the sense that we are very aligned in a lot of the ways that we seek that kind of sense of eroticism. So like Abbey was saying before, you know, we've always sexed it a lot. So for us it was kind of easier to fall into that as soon as our son was born, uh, because we had just done it so much. Um, but I would say that the, that sense of the physical touch was something I definitely missed, um, in those initial stages. But like you're saying, you know, if you're, if you want to be with someone in a long term capacity, it's not, it doesn't have to be a race to the finish line. And this whole notion of like, ah, as a, if you're a connected erotic couple and you have a strong erotic connection, you have to have sex five times a week. You have to have sex every single day. And if you're not having sex every single day, there's no erotic connection. You know, Abbey and I can go weeks without sex, but we are always erotically connected because whether it's a cheeky text message or, uh, saying something cheeky as we walk out the door, there is always this sense of underlying eroticism, um, that doesn't always just happen naturally. It's something that we consciously put effort into and we consciously cultivate because it's really important to us. And we both are very sexual people. And we think that even as parents and maybe especially as parents, you know, for us to be able to parent the best that we can, we have to be happy within ourselves and for us both to be happy within ourselves and within our relationship. You know, that sense of cultivation of eroticism is something that really will help us kind of live our best lives.

F: Yeah, uh, that's a great point. It's not just about the act itself. It's about the energy. I think a lot of it is just about feeling desired by the other person and feeling like you desire the other person. Whether that expresses in a physical way or just in an energetic way or in putting it down into words and expressing it. Um, so, yeah, I think that's awesome. I'm wondering if, um, being open help you in this process of kind of getting back into feeling a little bit more sexy after, maybe your son didn't need as much attention and you know, how that has helped your relationship.

A: I m think it definitely, um, always complements our own connection with each other and, and um, it does. It's quite exciting to be in a connection and to be feeling NRE and to have a lover and to, you know, have uh, someone who you're messaging as well while you have a momentto sort of step out from parent life a little bit. I think it's quite, um, invigorating because ultimately a child will feel happy and loved if they have happy, functioning parents, you know, and, you know, being able to, to tap into that naughty aspect of who I am as well. Like, I'm quite a cheeky person. I'm quite a playful person. When I'm feeling the connection with somebody, I'm quite flirtatious. And it's just like bringing that um, excitement then back into my home life as well, you know, and it. Because it's all energy, it's energetic. So, you know, if I am feeling that I can, can bring in the, bring in that extra joy and just like have more energy, you know, or feel more inspired to, you know, um, go for like a run while my son's like riding his bike and just like be feeling that uplift of energy.

And I think that there's something um, you know, really powerful about, you know, connections and, and that. That feeling of aliveness that can come from non monogamy. Of course you can get it from other places, but you can get it from non- monogamy. And for us with, um, the style of marriage that we're in where we're unafraid to tap into that and to enjoy it, you know, like there's, you know, I think we were going for a run, you know, yesterday afternoon, and our son was riding his bike. So he rides his bike in front, we run behind him. So that's good cardio for us. We get a bit of our time. He's having his ex exercise, you know, and then Liam says something. He's like, he's like, oh, you know, I know you're about to start dating again. You know, run a little bit harder. You know, like, he's like, my, oh, yeah, okay. Like I'm gonna, you know, run a little bit faster. And Liam's like, yeah, you know, get it. You know, you're so gorgeous or whatever. And it's just fun, you know, it's playful, so.

L: Well, you were going on a date this morning, so. I was, I was kind of. I was, yeah, I was a non- monogamous person. Personal trainer of sorts.

A: Exactly. I did go, I did go on a date. So I had this date coming up. So, um, you know, it's always good, Good, uh, good motivation, you know, but.

L: That, that real sense of playfulness actually makes us better parents as well. So the, the benefits of our non-monogamous experience, I would say directly improves our ability to parent because we are such playful parents as well. You know, like our son is now, he's. He's five, but he also now has this amazing sense of playfulness. And he's so cheeky and fun and awesome and we just have the best time together. And I think if we had, you know, uh, negated this kind of aspect of ourselves, we'd really phoned it in. We'd phoned it in and just gone full monogamy. And not that there's anything wrong with monogamy, and some people do it amazingly, but for us, being non-monogamous was the most authentic version of ourselves. And I think it has only benefited our, uh, home life, our relationship, and our ability to be great parents.

F: Yeah, I love that. And that reminds me of something that I wanted you guys to talk about because I know that obviously your kid is only five. You know, you haven't had that conversation about you guys being nonmonogamous. Um, but I heard you talking in some podcasts, I think about how you are still somewhat instilling some values. So, like, one of them might be playfulness, like you just mentioned another one. Love is infinite and you can love people from different genders and all of that. So can you speak a little bit about how you are not yet directly approaching the topic of non monogamy, but thinking about that conversation in the future and kind of prepping for it by talking about it in more like a, uh, like a value oriented way.

A: Yes. Our son is now becoming aware of love and I think he's picked up on marriage somewhere and these things have come up and, and it's not the kind of thing where we're sort of sitting and having these conversations with him. You know, it's usually if he brings up the topic, I'll often just sort of offer another person perspective as well. Um, or just a reminder, you know, if he'll say, oh yeah, because there's a mum and a dad. And I'll say, oh, well, you know, well, that friend does have a mum and a dad, but you know, you can have um, you know, two moms or two dads or some people like to love more than one person, you know, and he's just like, oh, okay, you know, and then he changed, uh, the conversation pretty quickly, so not making a big thing out of it. But you know, he's. His auntie is in a seriously committed relationship with another woman, you know, and they want to have a baby at some point. So I've said, you know, they're going to have a baby together. And you know, just sort of like how you would approach, um, you know, telling your children about queer relationships. It's just like, well, you know, some people love more than one person. Oh, okay. I think it's not that hard for children to comprehend that they don't have all of these other stories wrapped up around them yet. You know, we're not sort of feeding him, um, you know, strict monogamy culture or like forcing him to watch very gendered Disney movies or you know, traditional things like that. So for a child it's just like, well, of course you could maybe love more people because people have m more than one friend. You know, you can just sort of pull on those parallels, you know, like, well, you have many friends, you know, you can, you can love more than one friend. Oh, okay. You know, but of course it's, it's always age appropriate. And we're not, um, you know, we're certainly not saying, you know, polyamory this or non monogamy this or, you know, it's always just age appropriate with this idea of, you know, it's love and there's a connection. As long as everybody's happy, then that's, then that's good. You know, he doesn't really understand the topic of communication yet or anything, but I think as he gets older, we'll just Gently share and share from our experience too. You know, in many ways we do look very monogamous.

We don't have other partners living with us. That's not something that we're interested in. He hasn't really seen me with other partners or Liam. He's met different people along the way because usually, um, people who we tend to date also become our friends. And I think it's also important that, you know, we have support from our families as well. So, you know, our families all know that we're non-monogamous. They know who we are, they know our values, and so we're really supported by the people in our life. You know, he doesn't have a grandparent in his ear. Speak poorly of us in our connection, because I think that's when that can be a negative association. I think I heard, um, Dr. Eli Sheff talk about that, um, who's done research on polyamorous families, um, that sometimes the negativity can, can come if it's from loved one who's giving conflicting information from a child and they're thinking, well, I love my parents, but why is grandmother saying that something's wrong with my family? That's when confusion can come. And I think we're really fortunate that we've got a lot of just support.

L: And our way of viewing relationships is something that, you know, we're not non-monogamous evangelists. You know, we're not going around saying everyone needs to be non- monogamous. It's really a sense of trying to instill, uh, in our son that whatever decision is right for him, he just needs to know that he has all the options available to him and he just needs to make the choice that's right for him in the moment and maybe that will change, you know, and that's something that we view relationships as, as. Well, we're always in this constant communication and negotiation with where we're at, whether it's about relationships or how we feel about anything in the world, uh, really. So I think our son is, particularly at this stage is just very unfazed by anything. Um, and he just, it just makes sense to him. Oh, yeah, you can, you can love multiple people. That makes sense.

A: Yeah, he just wants to have fun and ride his bike and play with his friends and for us to just play with him. And for us, that's the most important thing. We want to be present parents with him. We're not sort of trying to put our relationship beliefs onto him. Yeah, he can find his way one day. We will tell him that we're non-monogamous. And I fully believe that. I don't think he's going to be upset hearing about that. He probably, he might not want to hear too much about it, but the connection and the love that we all have together as a family overrides anything. I feel like. I really believe. Like, I can't imagine my son going, wow, mom, you are a bad moment. Like, I'm not a bad mom. I'm a wonderful present mom.

F: Yeah.

A: Seems an incredible dad. Yeah you know, so I think that it's.

F: Awesome, uh, that you guys are approaching it in that way. And you alluded to some research that shows that children who grow up in non-monogamous households do have a lot of positive traits, but the negative traits come mostly from stigma. Right. And from what other people think. And I know you guys just came out in, uh, Australian television about your story and it was very much focused on you guys being parents. Right, and if people want to watch that, they can go to your Instagram. I think it's probably there somewhere. Right. Um, so I'm curious if after that, or just in general in your journey, if there's any stigma that has come your way and how you're thinking about that.

L: Yes, there's definitely lots of stigma. So we were on national TV, it was like a seven minute segment, um, at prime time. And then, uh, they posted it, uh, on their socials as well. And that's where we got to firsthand witness some of the viewpoints. The stigma was hard to see, uh, when it comes at you en masse. Like, we had thousands of comments, you know, comments, you know, you're a bad father, your son will not love you, you know, like just, just really hurtful things. And eventually it kind of became like a wave of negativity that you just had to ride and kind of ride it out until it kind of emotionally faded, certainly within myself to kind of have these negative reactions to it. So I think the stigma is something, uh, that one will always be in the face of. Uh, but it's a question of negotiating that and trying to break down as much of it as possible.

A: And I will say there was a lot of stigma and shame coming at us from the online space. As Liam said, that was really intense and the negativity far outweighed the positive responses. There were some wonderful people who came into bat for us and were like, oh, you know, uh, they look like wonderful people and how great, you know, people are doing it their way. And that was really lovely to See, but online it was very, very negative. But I will say that in our day to day life in the real world, um, with the parents at school, you know, for example, I would say that there hasn't been any issues at all. I'm, you know, even actually on Monday there was a school, a pre school get together for parents and the teachers and the, and the children in the new schoolyard that the children would be in for this year. And it was really interesting. I ended up having this wonderful chat with one of the mothers at the school and she actually of her own accord steered the conversation towards a non-monogamous topic in a really open hearted and open minded way. And then that made me feel comfortable to say, well you know, actually since you bring this up, you know, my husband and I actually have a podcast on this and we are non-monogamous and I write about non-monogamy. And she didn't look surprised and then was just like: "Oh that's wonderful." But it was that moment where I have a feeling that she already knew about all of this. Yeah, she had probably googled us and looked a little bit deeper and then found what we're about and was really genuinely curious uh, about it and had some of her own perspectives to share. And so, you know, that's really cool. My little mystery at the moment is trying to figure out who knows and who doesn't know within the school community. But in saying that we deliberately have our child at a school that is a non religious school, um, that has lots of rainbow families, um, and has quite a, um, holistic sort of approach uh, to life and education. And that was a very conscious choice because m, we need to be accepted fully as a family for who we are because we don't want our son to be bullied. We don't want him to be in a school that's a little bit more conservative where you know, his friends will come and say your mum something or other and you know, it's this terrible thing and he doesn't understand it. You know, we really are very mindful of the people who he's around. Um, and you know that goes with our own friends as well. I don't, he wouldn't get bullied by the children of our friends because they, they're such lovely parents, you know.

F: Yeah, I think there's such value on that because you know, we are all afraid, or at least I was afraid before I came out uh, on the podcast and I'm still afraid for some people to find out. But then what you realize is that the people that actually come to you when you open up, that kind of outweighs or at least in our experience. And I know that we've acknowledged that we're both privileged, living in somewhat liberal communities and all of that, but the people that come to you kind of, uh, outweigh the people that might be critical. And I think, uh, those conversations are what's important. Some people don't really question whether they could have that conversation with their family, with their friends, with whoever it is. And it's just inspiring to see you guys doing it and connecting with people in that way and just realizing that you're actually doing something really important.

A: Yeah. You know, just the way you were sharing about being in the position to be able to come out and the privilege that we do have. This was really one of the reasons why we decided to come out and to be more vocal about this because we actually are in a place of privilege. Many people cannot come out about their non-monogamous relationships. It was a huge discussion for Liam. I to say, well, you know, we don't have to talk about this. We don't have to come out as non-monogamous. We can just keep it to ourselves and have our life. And then, you know, every now and then friends would say or could say, you know, what's your secret? You guys are happy because we are a very, uh, happy, functioning couple. And that's something that's happened or people have said, what's going on with you guys? There's something else happening. We could have kept it to ourself, but we realized, you know, if we do want to actually normalize this and just to show that other perspective, let's, let's take our privilege and let's actually use it. Let's, let's go and share this in, in a, uh, to, to more people who might be interested in. Because that's what ultimately will help to normalize this. Because there might be a conservative family somewhere, you know, from a very religious background and they might have a 17 year old daughter who is watching us on TV and who is going: "Wow, I've never seen this perspective before because I thought that my body belonged to God and then my dad and then my husband." You know, "I didn't know that, you know, this type of connection could be possible." And I've never actually heard a man like Liam speak before like this.

F: Yeah.

A: You know, so when we sort of talked about that, we thought: "Okay, you know, I think we're ready. We're gonna go and, and saying yes to being included in this documentary." And we know that we're going to get a lot of hate for it. But to me, um, that was background noise. I wasn't as affected by it. Liam was a bit more affected by it. But for me, I was just like, as long as our families love us, as long as we're safe, as long as our child is happy, it doesn't matter. You can always close the laptop, you know, and then they're gone. If I'm upsetting them so much. They've got stuff that they have to work out. It's not my stuff, you know.

F: Yeah.

L: I mean, that is the ideal that we. That one would strive for. I must say that Abbey is particularly resilient in the face of that. And I certainly didn't. In the way in which I responded to kind of all of the. The online vitriol and the different things coming back and forth, it hit me in a place that was of a sensitive nature. And even though Abbey was like, uh, don't worry about it, you know, I think it was a situation where I had to really, uh, give myself a little bit of grace. And Abbey gave that to me as well, of course, and she knew that I felt differently to how she was feeling. But I think it's important to say that, uh, the ideal is not always what we can kind of reach in those situations.

F: I'm glad that you learned from the experience andthat you are happy with your decision. Anyways, I can imagine that part of the fear is also, what does this mean for my son? And all of these comments that might have come in about that specific topic and sounds like most people have been very open to it. But I do remember you, uh, saying at some point that there was this couple that found out and then they weren't hugging you at drop off anymore. Or, you know, you might be afraid that your kid might not be invited to play dates or someone will be like, oh, your mom is a slut. How do you think about that? Because I think that a lot of people would be comfortable coming out as not parents, but the moment they have a child, they're like, oh, no, I need to protect the child. And I know that you are obviously sleep, but what are some, you know, reservations or how are you thinking about that in the future?

A: Well, just an update on that front with those friends of ours at school. Um, it's been really wonderful. Our friendship has, um, you know, I could feel that change. I'm quite a sensitive, intuitive person, so I could pick up on that change m. And, you know, the mother of that child, um, we have talked a little bit about this, and I think I just reassured her. I said, you know, we don't have to get into it, but I want you to know that we're a very happy family. Our son is very safe. You know, there's. Where there's. No one is being hard done by in this situation. If you ever want to talk to me about it, um, you know, I'm here if you ever want to have the conversation. And she was really wonderful. She just said, thank you so much. This is all very new for me. And I'm just processing, I guess. You know, the main thing is that you're happy and that, you know, you're together and your son is happy, and that's the main thing. We haven't spoken about it. Again, we spend time with them. There is the warmth. We are actually caught up with them socially the other week as a family, you know, so I think that sort of testament to sort of who Liam and I are is people. And not trying to also put it on other people as well who don't quite get it, but just really, um, reassuring. These, um, you know, the. The foundations that, you know, we are safe, secure people. Because, you know, often the. The big worry is like, well, this must be bad for children, or, you know, is your son being exposed to inappropriate things. And I think, because, you know, there can be this thought that non-monogamy is like, you know, this highly sexual thing and. Or people have no self control or, you know, they're just sex maniacs or something. It's very much not the case, um, as much as we do enjoy sex, um, you know, but there's a time and place, like in any relationship, like there is in any monogamous relationship. So I just sort of reassure on that front that, you know, our son is safe and happy and we are too, and everything's fine, I guess, as far as bullying goes in the future. What do you think about that, Liam?

L: Well, with bullying, children can get bullied for any number of reasons. It's almost impossible to completely protect a child from reducing any parameters for which they might be bullied. Maybe they're too tall, maybe they're too short. You know, maybe they like sport, maybe they don't. Uh, you know, having been a child and also, you know, um, doing different teaching through my time, you know, you see so much go on in the schoolyard that, you know, children can sometimes be really cruel to each other. So really, for us, it's a sense of allowing our son a space to know how to navigate those situations and to give the people who are being cruel grace to go. Oh, they're just, they're just, uh, you know, being mean. That's that type of thing. They could be mean about my hair color, they could be mean about which is my favorite subject at school. And I'm sure that someone at some point, uh, will say something to him about our relationship. Um, but just like, you know, people have said things to me about my parents when I was at school or, you know, and it certainly wasn't for being non-monogamous. So I think it's impossible to completely wrap our son or any child in bubble, uh, wrap and say, you're never going to feel pain, you're never going to feel upset because someone bullied you. This is just a fact of life. Um, but it's really what we consider is really important is actually equipping him with the skills so that, uh, if it does get difficult, then he has a way to navigate out of those situations. And I would say that relates to people saying something about his parents being non-monogamous or someone saying something about his eye color.

F: Yeah, that's a great point. And you know, I think it's also a little bit of a trade off. It's like, okay, sure, my kid might get bullied at some point, or might get rejected or might feel this way, but all of the things that he's gaining from it, maybe not directly, but indirectly from the things we talked about from both of you feeling fulfilled and happy. And a lot of it is because of your relationship structure. And if you were in this close marriage that didn't fit your needs and desires, you and you wouldn't be happy like your son wouldn't be happy either. So I think that overall is a great choice that you are making. And even though you found that most people are accepting, um, another interview of yours was, uh, with someone who did have a situation where she was shone out of the community and her kids couldn't play with the other kids, et cetera. But then what she said is, actually, I didn't want those people in my life, right? Not because they're not maybe good people or anything, but if someone cannot accept you as who you are, as you said, Abbey, uh, you don't need to go into the details or anything, but they can respect you. If you find people who do not want you to be who you are or who disrespects you in that way, then you might not even want them in your life. Right. So again, acknowledging that we have the privilege and everything, but I would encourage parents out there to think about those trade offs and think about how to live their life in a way that they can feel like they are doing the right thing with the people that see them for who they are.

A: Right. Well, that's right. We want our son to foster friendships with the children of families who are open minded and who are loving and who, as Liam, um, said before, you know, how we can live in our differences and still be kind and respectful. Exactly as you said. I wouldn't want my son to be friends or spending time with another family who think that it's okay to ostracize a child.

F: Yeah.

A: You know, who thinks that it's okay to cut the friendship of, you know, their child with another child because of, you know, their, their family. You know, because if they're, uh, if they're a rainbow family or if they're a polyamorous family, you know, for us it's like, well, we're not in alignment with people who do that. So we let that go and there, there are wonderful people in the world and there are other children to become friends with and we always just remind him of that, you know, if he comes up against it.

F: Yeah, I love that. Uh, well, I like to ask a, uh, last question to my guests.

L: I would love to go on another date with you.

F: Yeah, that was exactly it. Um, so, yeah, thank you for clarifying that. You'll just have to fly to the other side of the world. But you know, I'll be here waiting.

L: Perfect.

F: But yeah, normally, uh, the question I ask is what would you tell to a polycurious person? But since this is, um, poly parenting, I just want to ask you, what would you tell to a, uh, poly parent?

L: I would tell a poly parent to do as much work as possible to remove any shame that they feel. It is totally acceptable, it is totally healthy, it is totally supportive and you can be a wonderful parent and be non- monogamous at the same time. Both can coexist and both can really inform and help one another. So whatever they need to do to really reduce as much of any pre existing shame that they might feel or any doubt, whether that's listening to amazing podcasts like yours, um, or whether that's reading incredible books, Jessica Fern's books, all these incredible resources, do as much as you can to remind yourself that it is totally normal and you can be a wonderful parent, have wonderful children and also be non- monogamous.

A: Well, I mean, how do I top that? I guess from the experience of a mother to not feel guilty. Take the time for yourself when you can know that everything is a season, a chapter. Knowing that it's okay to, um, explore non-monogamy, uh, you know, while you're a parent. But then also you just have to find your own balance with it as well. To get good at, uh, scheduling. You know, parents are very busy people as well. Um, you know, and to just, just be kind to yourself and keep the lines of communication open and as Liam said, you know, just to like strip the guilt or shame that might come up. Um, there is a desire for you or your partner to connect in with somebody else. You know, it doesn't have to be that different from how you would catch up with a friend. And that's okay.

F: Yeah. Yeah. Well said. Thank you guys so much. It was a truly wonderful conversation and I'm sure so many people are going to feel so identified and so liberated from hearing your story. So thank you for sharing.

A: Well, thank you so much for having us.

L: Thank you.