J: Where the strength of our relationship, of having had this long foundation of being together when we were young and monogamous, while it helped us in some ways, it also made it a little bit more challenging because we just didn't have the maturity of different relationships and how to cope on our own without turning to the other person to support us.

Fernanda: Hi, everyone. Welcome to Polycurious. I am Fer, your host, and today I bring you the second episode of our poly parenting miniseries. This is actually the first part of my conversation with M and J. They have been together for about 30 years. They actually met the first week of graduate school. And, um, after almost two decades being together, they decided to open up their relationship. Um, and in the past two years, after their three children left their home, they have transitioned more into polyamory. I actually met M and J at a wedding, and I felt compelled to interview them because I realized that in the podcast, we really hadn't had many people who had been monogamous for so many years before opening up their relationship. And we also hadn't had that many people who were parents. And in talking to them, M and J shared how that had been a little difficult for them to not have resources. And that's actually partly what gave me the idea to start this miniseries.

However, in this first part of the conversation, we actually don't get to talk too much about parenting. We talk a lot more about that in, uh, the second part, so make sure to listen to that. And something I really liked about M and J is that even though they're in their 50s, they are successful professionals, and they had three kids. They have managed to continue to have fun, whether it's through dating or going out or simply having some independence from their family life. And in our conversation, you'll hear them telling us how they actually got inspired to live this way by living abroad, because they saw adults in other countries having fun in a way that not that many people in the US do. There's this idea that fun is to be had when you are younger, and then at some point, you stop doing. The things that young people do. And, of course, things do change, but there's also a way to continue to have a, uh, vibrant life even after you have kids. So I hope that J and M are an inspiration to you in that regard. I actually really resonated with what they said because growing up in Mexico with a Cuban mom, I grew up seeing my parents having fun. I remember, for example, going on trips with my dad and his friends where my sister and I were the only kids. And even as I got older, on our trips to Cuba, my mom and I would go together to concerts or we'd even go out dancing.

So it is possible. And I love that M and J figured out a way to do that. In this conversation we also talk about some of the difficulties they experience in their transition into non-monogamy after being monogamous for so many years. One of the things they struggled with a ah bit was having to get used to not relying on the other person for everything. Today they also give us great tips around finding community, which I know it's something that a lot of you ask me about and they tell us how that sometimes requires you to step out a little bit of your comfort zone and talking about finding community. I actually started a WhatsApp group for these very reasons. So Polycurious listeners out there can connect with one another can connect with guests as well in case they're struggling, in case they have any questions. You'll also receive resources and of course you'll get notified when new Polycurious episodes come out. M and J are actually also in the group, so if after listening to this episode you have any questions for them, you can just write to them there directly. So if you want to join that WhatsApp group, the link is in the show notes there.

You can also find another link to get a uh, discount to get tested for STDs. If you are probably curious, you probably know that having more than one partner can be a lot of fun, but it also increases your chances of getting STDs. And some of them, like herpes, are non curable. So if you want to be safe, it is really important to get tested regularly. An STD check makes it super easy for you to do, so you can just make an appointment, go to a facility nearby if you live in the US and you'll get the results in just a couple of days. So if you want a $10 discount, just follow the link in the show notes or go to polycurious.com lastly, before we start, I wanted to remind you that if you feel like you're struggling in your non-monogamous journey and could use some guidance, you can schedule a free exploratory call with me so we can chat a little bit about your situation. I can tell you about my coaching process and we can see if we are a good fit to work together.

Okay guys, I'm sure you're gonna love this episode, so let's get into it. Here's my interview With M and J.

F: J and M, welcome to Polycurious. I'm so glad, uh, we're finally making this happen. And as we were talking about before we started recording, I think that your relationship is very unique in many ways and I'm excited to dive in because we've never really had uh, a couple like you in the podcast. So welcome.

J: Thank you for having us.

F: Yeah, of course. So before we dive into your story, curious, uh, to hear a bit more about you just so we get an idea of uh, who you are for the listeners.

J: Sure. Uh, my name is J. I'm 51 years old. I uh, live in New York City with my wife M. Um, and I've lived in New York City now for a few years. Uh, prior to that, spent most of my life moving around different cities both in the United States and the world. And I'm, uh, a physician, uh, and have done various different, uh, work in the healthcare industry.

F: Awesome. Uh, how come were you traveling around the world?

J: So I do work where I help, uh, try to help other countries in public health matters and so had a real opportunity with the organization I was working with to go to countries in Asia and spent part of our time in Africa, um, helping in public health sphere all over the world.

F: Awesome. Um, awesome. How about you, M?

M: So I'm also 51, um, and living of course with J in New York City. I'm a physician as well and because of ah, J's job, have worked also all over the world. Wherever he was posted, I, um, followed along, um, so have been doing that with him and I grew up in San Diego and then met J during graduate school.

F: That's great that you guys had that experience being able to travel and live around the world. Like, I feel like a lot of couples, they don't have the chance to like go explore and I know you were working so it's a little bit different. But it's awesome that you got to adventure so much.

J: I think that it definitely, you know, leading into the discussion about polyamory and non traditional relationships. I do think there are certain skills that you learn when you go on these big moves and I'll just be very frank, you get really good at communicating, ah, badly and then learning how to communicate better. You know, I think one of the, one of the relationship skills is not so much that we've learned is it's not so much how much you argue, it's, it's how quickly and how well you recover. And these were always incredibly fun experiences. But there was also A lot of stress built into them.

Every transition between moving and moving back and somewhere else. And so I think, you know, we learned over time to solve problems together, um, in a way that other couples may not have if they stayed in the same place their whole lives.

F: Yeah, that's really true. I think that I feel identified with a lot of it because Seth and I, my partner and I are like a really good team when it comes to that. You know, I feel like that's why sometimes you are dating someone but then you go on a trip with them and then that's when you realize like, okay, maybe we're not as compatible or actually we're really compatible because you have to like figure out all those things together.

M: Yes. I think we discovered uh, while we were doing that what a great team we made. I think through the years, um, that was definitely, um. Our strong point is that he took care of some things, I took care of the others and together we basically could conquer anything. I think as we were changing from one place to the next, the other thing I think we learned too was um, uh, really how to make friends. Because when you enter into these new places, um, it isn't easy. And so, uh, being able to gather people together, we learn to build community, um, which has been also an important part, um, in our poly life here in New York City, uh, and has been building that community.

F: That's awesome. Any tips on that? Because, I mean I'm going to have to do that wherever we end up settling. So any tips for building community for me or like the listeners who might want to also just find, uh, non-monogamous or just friends around?

M: Um, I mean I think the important thing is finding, finding hobbies, finding things that you like that will connect you to people, um, uh, and then bringing those people, um, uh, I guess into your life. For us, I, um, think a lot in New York City in particular, uh, was actually our dating, uh, dating as individuals and as couples. Together we would meet people and they may not become intimate relationships of ours, but we just realized that we were like minded, um, and had similar interests that often you don't find outside of the poly community. And so slowly, uh, I think built that group together.

J: Yeah, I mean, I think there's a couple of things that we definitely learned. And I'll credit M because she is, you know, from the moment we met, um, she tends to move through the world somewhat quietly and people think of her as being kind of soft spoken, but it's almost like a stealth skill to, you know, to Find and make friends and then grab onto them really well. And M's just really good at judging and identifying people that are good. And so, I mean, a couple of things that I've learned from her and also learned through my experiences have been, number one is sort of having your radar attuned. I remember one time when we were in Africa where we're having trouble meeting people. Early on, M, uh, came rushing home after some school meeting and says, ah, I met this great woman. We're going to make her one of our friends. You know, uh, just knowing, like, knowing that it's important to build community and therefore kind of looking at it in a. It, uh, is weird. It sounds almost like you're trying to pick up people for dating. But in this situation it's really just like, I know I need a community and I'm going to find people I like and be attuned to that. So that's one. Uh, I think the second is being very upfront about trying to ask people to go out and meet for coffee or to come over for dinner. Uh, when we first, when we moved to New York City, our first time, this is now our second time in New York City, we were kind of, uh, surprised and I would say a little saddened by the fact that a lot of the friends we made, which were usually like the parents of our kids friends, they weren't really interested in inviting you over for dinner or reciprocating or if you tried to make a dinner plan, it had to be like months out. Um, and so we found that the second thing is to just constantly be asking people, hey, let's, let's try to find a time to meet up and do things. So finding good people also being very, you know, sort of insistent in trying to meet people and not holding grudges if you don't get invited back to something. Right. Because it's part of an active effort. I think it's. You have to be very purposeful about it and um, also not have any sort of self consciousness that you might get turned down.

F: Yeah.

M: It's important too that your gatherings, they don't have to be perfect. You know, they sometimes people just like to come over and have a little snack and a drink and it doesn't have to be some big production, uh, you know, just even just bringing people together in whatever setting, um, makes people happy actually, and to, uh.

F: Yeah, no, I feel that I love hosting and bringing people together and. But I do feel like it takes a little bit when you're new, people are Less likely to reach out because they already have a bunch of friends. Right, and like, you don't. So, yeah, it's really kind of on you to make that extra effort. But then as you mentioned, like, one can get self conscious because you really need to put yourself out there. But, uh, yeah, that's a good, that's a good reminder. Uh, so thank you for sharing those tips. I'm curious because you mentioned you came to New York 12 years ago, I believe. Right.

So were you guys using dating apps or like, how were you actually meeting poly people in New York at that time?

M: Well, that's an interesting start to our, um, open relationship. Basically we came after having been overseas for eight years at that point. Uh, during the early 2000s is when we were overseas and came back in 2011. And during the time we were overseas, uh, we, you know, we weren't dating. We weren't even aware of dating apps.

So when we got to New York City and we started considering opening up our relationship, the first place that we actually turned to was Craigslist, of all things. And so, uh, there you could find couples looking for couples, basically. And so our first couple that we met was at. Actually it was just something they had written up on Craigslist. There were no pictures exchanged at all. And we met them at a bar.

F: Wow.

M: They were the ones that then put us onto OkCupid, if I remember correctly.

J: Yeah, exactly.

M: And so then we, um, started on OkCupid as well.

J: Yeah, it's a bit crazy. We were living over and we didn't know anything. We met when we were 21 in the mid-90s, and so we had no experience whatsoever with, uh, being single and dating in any way at all. And on top of that, we spent the majority of all of the 2000s living, uh, in Asia in places not very good Internet access, and didn't know any real single people. Like, we were all hanging out with couples all the time. You know, when you're expats and you live in these big expat communities, it's basically like a social dorm for, for adults with young children, you know. And so, so when we moved to New York, we had been talking a little bit as a fantasy about, you know, meeting other people and trying something different. Um, and I was the one that came and said: "Oh, okay, well, where else do you look? I guess, do you look on Craigslist?" And, uh, and yeah, the first couple and one of the couples that I exchanged had written this, like, really beautiful description. It was like you could just tell they were intelligent and they didn't want to exchange pictures. They just gave physical descriptions of themselves. And so we kind of gave it a try and um, and we didn't have a necessarily great reaction to them. But uh, after we met them, I can't even tell you how much we played with each other, just M and me that next weekend it was just such a turn on to do something that seemed, you know, very transgressive to us at the time.

And it was I think there and I think M's right. I think they were the ones that mentioned that you use OkCupid for dating. And that's when we started using that to uh, uh, first try to meet couples and then try to date on our own.

M: But another good experience we had from Craigslist as well was ah, one of our couples who I would say really got us started in our community as well. They had posted something called: "Let's talk about Sex." And so they were trying to gather couples together um, to have conversations around sex. And we went to their first gathering and met them and from there like they kept bringing people together as well. And so between the two of us we both were generating this really lovely community um, of open minded people.

J: Craigslist did kind of step by step way lead us to several friends that we've still had now for over 10 years. Some of whom now live close to us in our neighborhood in Brooklyn and specifically moved here to be close to us are people that we met, you know, over 10 years ago, um, through this community.

F: Yeah, that's awesome. I find that a lot of people have that experience. They become non- monogamous and then they start kind of like mostly hanging out with non- monogamous people whether they have sex with them or not because there's some like affinity. But yeah, that sounds like you guys had a great experience. I feel like meeting up with someone that you, that you found on Craiglist that without like any pictures like nowadays sounds like such a crazy idea like when you one wouldn't do that. But I'm like so glad that you guys were like brave enough to do that.

J: I'm glad we weren't murdered. Yes.

F: Yeah. And as you said like you know, maybe you didn't click with the couple that much but even just doing that, and I do want to ask about that because other couples might not want to you know, actually do anything but they might want to like go on a friendly date with another couple just to see or go to a play party and only watch or just get in the Apps and browse. Like, even if you never, like, actually connect with anyone. Right. Like, explain a little bit how that works. Like why after you met that couple that you didn't click with, you were just, um, more connected to one another or, like, more horny and like, had better sex just because of that. Without even having sex or making out or playing with the other couple.

M: Yeah, I think that it was just the discussion of it and the potential for that. Um, we had been discussing it a little bit up before them, um, before we met them too. And, uh, it often played maybe in our sex as well too, talking about being with other couples, real or not, um, and so meeting them and actually having that happen. And, um, I think there's just an energy in those conversations you're having. And there's a freedom to also be more sensual and intimate too, as you're talking to them, because you know what the potential could be. And so, yes, after we left them, we got home and sex was amazing.

F: Yeah. I think also perhaps seeing, uh, your partner being like, the object, for lack of a better word, of desire of, yes. Some other people that's like, attractive. And yeah, I think that what you mentioned, just the sexual energy is like, there even if nothing actually, actually happens.

M: So, yeah, I remember they had texted us back and, um, one of the lines was, um, we had toe curling sex. And I will never forget that they had toe curling sex afterwards. So they also had experience as well. Yes.

F: That's awesome. Um, why did you guys decide to open up? Sounds like because of the context you were in. It wasn't something that, like, you necessarily saw other people doing. Like, nowadays people think about it because it's like, oh, my friend is doing it. I saw it in a show, I like, listen to a podcast, etcetera. How did you guys come up with the idea 12 years ago before you even knew about dating apps?

J: Yeah, I mean, I could say that we definitely wouldn't have predicted where we'd be at today with what we were thinking. Twelve years ago, it was just this kind of fantasy idea, like, oh, wouldn't it be really hot if when we were overseas, we, uh, had a really great community of people who loved to go out and dance and go, uh, drinking and flirt. But there was nothing overtly sexual about it. But it was definitely a real turn on for us and that was actually really important. It's one of the things we found that was really challenging about, you know, actually American culture in general is that there's sort of this expectation that you do all Your partying in your 20s and 30s and then you settle down and then you become parents and then all you do is focus on your children and you, and your, your adult life goes away. And that's, that's what young people do. And as you know from living in other countries, particularly whether it's Latin America or other parts of, you know, the world, you know, adults continue to have fun and appreciate that. And so that was something that we kind of really got to do when we were overseas. And it sort of came up one night, kind of like drunkenly during sex. I think I brought it up about how much fun it would be to be with other couples.

And then when we got to New York, uh, in 2011, I was the one that told M, I said, look, wouldn't it be fun for us to actually try making this happen? I think in her mind, and I'll let her clarify, but I think in her mind it was kind of like, wait, we actually would try to do this in person as opposed to just being a fantasy. But it was through meeting a couple of couples that we realized that, oh, actually this couples thing isn't really working very well because we just have just different chemistry and you know, like, you know, trying to find four way chemistry isn't great. And it was after several months of trying to meet couples that we, um, met a couple that had a, was in an open relationship where M and the guy had a really good connection. And that was when we sort of moved from couples meeting to singles meeting. But M has a slightly different version of the origin story, which is, which I always find kind of fun because we both were thinking about it a little differently.

M: Yes. Uh, from my standpoint, uh, yes, how J tells the story. We were having fantasies prior to moving to New York City. Um, and I do think our expat life in some ways saved our marriage. Prior to going overseas, we had two kids, we were working full time jobs. We'd been out, I think three times and two years, um, on dates with each other. And one of them was to go buy Christmas gifts for the kids. So our life was not fun. And when we went overseas and uh, joined this expat community, ah, we just became much more vibrant and uh, we're able to experience life in a way that we weren't before. While we were in, um, our first posting, often, uh, when I tell people where we were living, they'd be lik: “Oh, that's the swingers building.” And I was like: “Wait, what? Nobody's invited me anything like that.” And Then and then, same thing in Beijing. I would hear people kind of mention, um, uh, oh, you know, that couple is the swinger couple. And so every it, you know, kind of was there in the background. And I, uh, think when we moved, uh, to New York City and J mentioned it was his 40th birthday and I wanted to do something for him because he'd done something, uh, for me, um, uh, when I turned 40, uh, but we didn't know anybody. We weren't going to be able to have a big party, uh, in New York City because we didn't have that many friends at that point. And, uh, so he proposed. He's like, well, what about a threesome? And so I, uh, immediately was like: "Okay, I could do this for him, but where do I go?" And so I started Googling escort services. And I looked it up and it was going to be $1,000 for three hours. And I was flustered. Uh, so went back to him and said, I'm having a little bit of trouble, um, trying to figure this one out. And that's when he showed me this Craigslist posting. He's like, well, we could do this. Um, I think in his mind he was always thinking more let's do a couples thing. But, um, the first thought had been a threesome, which didn't, um, happen then.

F: Yeah. And how come were you, you know, because I think that a lot of. Women in your position, or men, if like the other person. After how many years had you been married? At this point?

M: 13.

F: Yeah, after 13 years of marriage or something where there was no mention of non-monogamy, all of the sudden one of them is like: "Oh, actually, couldn't it be fun to have a threesome?" Or actually, wouldn't it be fun to like, try these swingers or whatever? I think a lot of people would feel like: "Oh, this means that there's something wrong about me. this means that they got tired of me. And uh, like, this is not what I signed up for. We've been together 12 years and now, like, you tell me this," why do you think you didn't have that mentality? And you were so open to it?

M: Yeah, I mean, none of those thoughts went through my head. I wasn't at all worried that I wasn't enough. I think J's always made me feel like I'm more than enough. Um, so that wasn't at all an issue. Um, uh, I think, yeah, I think I had the self confidence not to, not to be concerned. And again, we had kind of built it up a little bit gradually by talking about it. I think the one problem was that I didn't go into it with any intention. We hadn't read anything about it. We hadn't really talked about, like, what were our specific desires, our goals, what did we want from this? Um, and so that made it, I think, actually complicated for a number of years. Um, uh, so that was the negative. But in the beginning, I was up for anything. I think J will say that if he. If someone suggests something, I almost never say no, I'll jump in and give it a try. And so this was just one of those things that I was excited to give a try to.

J: M's adventurous spirit is both one of her greatest talents and skills and my biggest turn on. But it's also something that also gets us in trouble, too, because I tend to have. I tend to talk a lot and have a lot of ideas that are not necessarily thought well through. And M has a tendency to take those ideas and just be like: "Okay, sure, and then figure it out as we go along." And I think that, you know, ultimately this isn't great and it's worked out, but it does get us into trouble. I mean, it was. While we didn't necessarily have that many issues in those first couple of meetings or dates, we hit all those landmines of jealousy and insecurity, you know, many times along the way. And I think one of the things just to even flash forward, just kind of lessons for other couples is, uh, just because you don't feel it one time or two or three times, it doesn't mean you won't feel it at some other time in the future. Right, there are all sorts of factors, Whether it's the dynamics between your partner and a different type of person. Uh, maybe it's your vulnerability because of whatever emotional state you're in at that time, other stressors. So anyway, yeah, no, it's. And so that's a lot of times the way M and I will move through things, we'll just, like, decide, okay, oh, let's go ahead and do this. And we haven't spent as much time along the way talking about it. And that's probably a lesson that I would encourage others to do, is probably be a little bit more thoughtful than we are, just because even though we've. We've made it through and it's been productive for us, I don't know if that's the right approach for everybody.

F: Yeah, yeah, definitely, uh, want to get into those challenges. But before we go there, M, you. said something That I think might be good, uh, for some people to hear. Because you said "I had no insecurities because J has always made me feel more than enough" or something of the sort. And of course there sounds like there's some personality aspect to your openness. But I think that also that like, secure foundation has to be there. One person of the, of the partnership might be like, oh, let's open up. And the other person might be resistant, not because they're not open minded about it, but maybe because they don't have a strong foundation with the person. They don't feel safe already. And it's like, oh, now you want to open things up. So I'm just curious, like, what has J done that has made you feel like you're more than enough in your relationship?

M: Oh, he always was like building me up, always saying positive things, always has been turned on by me. I've always felt, you know, like he wants to be with me and, uh, makes me feel loved. And um, so this was not hard, uh, of course, until we started hitting other landmines. But, um, definitely in the beginning, um, I didn't question it. I do think that it was helpful. When we opened up, we'd been married for 13 years, together for 18. I, ah, always thought that us having that foundation together and knowing that we had our family and each other and everything helped us, uh, uh, to work through this. And seeing other couples who had only been together for two years, weren't even engaged or married, you know, had no ties and doing it, I was always amazed that they actually felt confident to do that. I didn't think J and I could have actually succeeded when we were 22, 23 and trying to do that.

F: Yeah.Okay, now tell me about the mess, the mess up, the challenges.

M: So after meeting a few couples unsuccessfully, uh, we both started dating, uh, individually. And I had ah, this partner who, um, I really enjoyed. And J started going off on his own dating. And I think the firstbig sort of landmine or difficulty around it was sort of rules like realizing that he would be taking somebody out on a date and that it might be romantic or sexy and all of this. It started definitely bringing up feelings of jealousy. And I had thrown out a list of things I didn't want him doing on his dates. And one that we, I think remember explicitly and often bring this up and laugh at it was that I didn't want him taking someone out for sushi because that just seemed so romantic to me and I didn't want that. And so there was no sushi allowed, like, I think no picnics in the park. Um, that seemed too romantic. And um. So yeah, we had a list of things, or I did because I was the one that was struggling, um, at this time. And uh, gradually, of course, those broke down. I went out to sushi with someone, so that had to come off the list. And then picnics started happening or whatever. So those boundaries got put up but then gradually lessened. That uh, was one of them. And then the second one, um, I think a big one was the balance. Um, and trying to. It was ideal. We didn't really want to be home alone. And so we wanted to try and keep, you know, dates on the same night or, um. So that we were out at the same time. And also having kids at home, you know, you didn't want, you know, dad to be out one night and mom to be out the other. It was seemed, um. You know, we hadn't told them yet that we were uh, uh, dating.

F: And so how old were they at that point?

M: 13, 11. And um, 9ish or something like that. Um, and so they didn't know what we were doing. And so it would have been easier if we could balance, you know, have nights to date nights together. But that's impossible. You know, you can't really expect your partners also to align and all that. So um, that often became challenging. Or one partner might be more available than the other. And so one of us could go out more frequently on dates than the other. And so those balances, I think, um, uh, were hard. And I think coming to the realization that you can never really find balance when you're doing this individually. Someone will always maybe have a little bit more than the other person. And not letting that um, really affect you, um, is what we've had to sort of overcome, which hasn't been easy.

J: Yeah, I mean, I think the sort of strength of M and uh, of our relationship is also been one of its weaknesses, which is that, you know, we had. Neither of us had ever had a serious boyfriend or girlfriend. When we met each other, you know, we were really our first real relationships. And so that's one second we were young, so we didn't really know ourselves. We didn't really know how to have relationships. And so we built this connection that was really, you know, we learned this term later enmeshed. You know, we were like inside each other metaphorically all the time. You know, constantly with our schedules and our lives. And we were attacked. And then we had kids, uh, much earlier than most of our friends did. In our mid-20s. And so, as a result, you know, when you're dating on your own, you're really doing something that for us, inherently seemed very unusual. We were entirely on our own. It was entirely about ourselves, exclusively about not involving the other partner. Right. Because it's a situation which, you know, sure, if I went out with my college buddies, M could join, but this was in a situation where she could even theoretically be part of at that time. And I think we struggled a lot individually over, like, what that means. And a lot of it was about this. Like: "Oh, well, if you have one date. Well, I have to have one date. If you're having sex, I need to have sex. And if you're communicating this much with your partner, why am I not doing it?" And we, honestly, we still struggle with that at some level, even if it's 12 years later. I mean, we know how to handle it. And we've evolved so much better to learn about ourselves, to know that these are problems for ourselves and not problems to put on the other partner to solve. Um, but that was a lot of a struggle. And then all those insecurities that we hinted at before where M says, well, early on, it wasn't a big deal. Well, it became a big deal not just for her, but for me. Right. Anytime you're not quite feeling loved or getting the attention or responsiveness that you want, it's very challenging to think that the person that I've always grown up thinking is supposed to provide it for your other partner is not actually the one that can give that to you. And I think that's where the strength of our relationship, of having had this long foundation of being together when we were young and. And monogamous. While it helped us in some ways, it also made it a little bit more challenging because we just didn't have the maturity of different relationships and how to cope on our own without turning to the other person to support us.

F: I think what you say is really, really important because a lot of people are just used to, like, relying on their partners when they feel sad or they're going through some relationship struggle. But when you are in an open relationship and you are hurting because of your other relationship, it's not always appropriate to go to your partner, cry about it. And, uh, you know, obviously I've also heard people who break up with their secondary and their primary is there for them and, like, consoling them, and there's nothing wrong about that. I mean, if you're able to do that, that's beautiful. But you have to be mindful and considerate the way that you do that. I've somewhat experienced difficulty with that because, um, my partner is monogamous and I'm non- monogamous. And we kind of have a Don't Ask Don't Tell. Not, not like he knows where I'm going and who I'm going with, but I don't come back and tell him about my date. Right. So when I've had had, like, difficulties in my outside relationship, I don't feel like I can share with him. So then, like, you have to rely on yourself, as you said, and maybe your friends. Any, uh, tips on, like, how to, like, manage that situation and if you have any examples of your own experience, that'd be.

F: That would be great.

M: Me, you?

J: So we're both looking at each other trying to figure out here to go, oh, my God, there's. Yeah, that's a great question. And there's so much. I mean, I think, uh. I don't know if there's a right way because so much of it is dependent upon your individual situation and the dynamic of your relationship. Right. So. But I would say a couple of things are true, at least for M and me. We have turned to each other on many occasions to support each other, but a lot of it depends on your. I mean, for us, you know, there's all different pop psychology ways of looking at relationships. Our attachment styles are very sort of pronounced in that regard, you know. And so for us, I tend to be the one that's much more of the. The anxious one. And so we'll be much more attuned and try to solve M's problems when she has emotional challenges where she is less so like that for me. And that's been both good and bad. Right. It's, it's. It's good in some ways because it helps me to sort of force myself to learn about myself and how to cope. And on the other end, I sometimes flip out and I'm like, well, why aren't you comforting me the way I comfort you? Right. And then I would say for. And I'm going to speak on M's behalf, and then you should hear from her is I think she sometimes has leaned on me too much for those things and felt upset when I've tried to put up a barrier and say: "Well, look, you know, I don't feel comfortable in this situation right now knowing or being too involved in your relationship."

And she would not be happy about that because she would say, well, if I can't turn to you for help, who am I supposed to turn to? And so we haven't figured out a great solution to that. I mean, I think the solution is, obviously to have friends and therapists and other people who can really provide that support, um, and not turn to each other entirely for that. But that has been something that we have struggled with, I think, a lot. So, M, what your thoughts are.

M: Yeah, I mean, I think that the ideal situation, which we should all sort of try to achieve, is to be able to listen to one another, um, and enjoy those, you know, hard moments and enjoy those, um, sexy and romantic times, you know, and hear those stories from your partner. I think in the beginning, sometimes when he'd come back from dates, um, I would get really turned on, and I could feel that feeling. And I loved that feeling of being able to know that he had had a good time. And I could feel that, um, and then the opposite of when he's. When he's struggling to be able to be the one to be able to sit there and listen to him. And I think, um, you know, we're still working on those things today. To do better for each other.

F: Yeah. Yeah. I think that it's kind of hard to know how much to share and, like, when to share. And, you know, there should always be an openness. And it sounds like you guys have it to, like, be able to share and, um, support each other, etcetera. But I think that also when one person says, this is too much for me, which has happened with my partner, because even though we have a Don't Ask Don't Tell until actually, like, the more comfortable with [...] And there's been times when I've been, like, crying about something that happened with someone else. And he's been there for me, but there's also been times when he's been like, this is enough. I don't feel comfortable with this. So I think that it's a tricky line to walk because everyone's different. And, like, you know what your partner's triggers and sensitivities are, and you have to think about that continuous communication there, which sounds like you guys have it, but still a little bit of. A little bit of a struggle, right?

J: Yeah, I think it is. And I don't see that in a. In a bad way so much. I think I know the older I've gotten, the more I've done this, the more you realize that you are never fully formed. Right. You are constantly learning how to be a better person. I think what really, really matters is that you care about preserving your core, your primary relationship. Right. I think there are so many times that M and I, M and I could have walked away from each other, but tried to work on things and tried to better our ways of communicating and do things, that that's what ultimately matters. And we used to share a lot about what we were doing individually. Now we don't automatically discuss everything we did. We sort of kind of creep around it or wait for the other person to ask, which is, I think, both better for us as a relationship, but also more respectful of our partners. I would say that I think in the past I sort of felt like I needed to know everything that muscle was doing and she wanted to know everything I was doing. But I think as we've evolved to being less sort of play open ENM (Ethical Non-Monogamy) to more poly, I think we've both learned to be far more respectful of the need for some type of privacy with our partners. Um, um, and only share those things that we think are important for us to share.

F: Yeah. Can you give me maybe some examples of what you are describing? Something about maybe a specific relationship or something like that?

J: I mean, I'll just say a perfect example. I get super turned on by strong, confident women who own their sexuality. So, like, I would love to hear when M went on a date and come back. I would want to know every detail of what you did both before and during sex and afterwards and everything. And for me it was just like a, uh, turn on to hear about it. Um, and over time it became clear that M viewed that as a chore. It was not something that she enjoyed doing. Um, and she can explain why or not. And so I stopped asking in much more detail about it. It didn't seem as important to me. And it also seemed like it was putting a burden on her. And third, I started to think to myself, oh, and I don't know why I didn't think about this before. Again, it's just my own failing. I, I didn't think about how this might be a violation of this other person's privacy, uh, you know, her meta, her partner, or when your other partner is telling you things about their life. And in the past, I think we always sort of viewed it as like, oh, we share everything with each other and, and now I think we're just more cautious because we, and I think this relates to the poly transition. We realize that we owe something. Well, we have an obligation or commitment to these other partners too. And our primary relationship in some ways trumps that, but in other ways doesn't.

Go to next episode to read de second part of this interview!