M: So I said: "Well, just to let you know, you know, your dad and I are in an open relationship." And she was like: "I know. I've known that. I heard what you and dad were talking about back, you know, 10 years ago."

J: We used to call her Big Ears because she could, like, hear everything that was going on. And so obviously, um.

M: Yes.

Fernanda: Hi, everyone. Welcome to Polycurious. I am Fer, relationship coach and host of this podcast, and today I bring you the second part of my conversation with M and J. If you haven't listened to the first part of this conversation, I recommend you go back and listen to that one first. This is the third episode of our Polyparenting miniseries, and M and J have been together for about 30 years. However, they only opened up their relationship about 12 years ago, and in the past couple of years, they've transitioned from more of an open relationship structure to a polyamorous one. And today we talk about that transition and how that coincided with their kids going off to college.

M also speaks about how having outside partners has helped her connect with a different version of herself that is not just a mother or a wife. They also share how they have learned to cope with their different ways of reacting and approaching non- monogamy. This is really common. There's normally one person in their relationship that needs more reassurance or more connection, and the other one might need a little bit more space when they're struggling with something. We also talk about how they told their kids about their open relationship and how each of them reacted in a different way. And, um, they also share how they actually wish they had told them sooner. So if you're a parent and you're wondering how to approach the subject, if you should approach the subject in the first place, you might find this conversation interesting. Okay, guys, let's get into it. Here's my conversation with M and J.

M: I mean, I guess our in, um, um, to poly transition has happened in the past couple years. And I think, uh, during that time, I think there's a number of factors of why that may have happened. Um, primarily becoming empty nesters, essentially. Most of our kids had graduated from high school. We had the home to ourselves. So I think there you have more time to yourselves and more time to dedicate not just to us as a couple, but to somebody else. And we did, um, a few times go over Esther Perel's sort of list of, uh, topics to discuss with your partner and what our desires were and what we maybe wanted out of our relationship.

And I think at one point it came up about traveling with partners, uh, and that became, um, something that J had originally said that would be something on his list to do. And, uh, I was the one that did it first, um, or whatever. And that sort of, I think, definitely switched us from being just ENM, um, and seeing a partner once a week, um, or so to definitely being much more involved in our relationships.

F: So was this with someone that you are currently seeing? Do you both have partnerships outside your relationship at the moment?

M: Uh, yes. Yep, we both do. And we both have traveled with them individually. I have a couple partners. I have one, um, of nine years now.

F: Wow. Okay.

M: Um, uh, and then another one of just over a year or so that we've been dating. And he's the one that sort of, I think, changed our, um, relationship a little bit and moved more to poly. He was more available, more willing to go, you know, travel and all of that. So that's when I started sort of testing those waters a little bit.

F: Um, interesting. So the one that you've been together with nine years, you still felt like you were more identified with, like, open rather than polyamorous, even though you were together for nine years. That's really interesting. So, like, how often would you see each other? Or, like, where's the line there? Is it just like, uh, time commitment or feelings or.

M: Yep, it's a bit. It's his life. He doesn't live in New York City, so. But he's here during the week, not on the weekends. Um, so his availability is just different. And so we see each other, um, every other week. Um, and, uh, it's nice. And, yes, I enjoy the comfort of the sort of quote, old relationship now as well, too. And that's nice. And, um, yeah, we've grown together, I think, in a lot of different ways.

F: And are both of, uh, your partners also partnered?

M: Uh, yes, yes. Um, my mine of nine years is married. Um, and then my current partner is poly, um, or ENM. So has one other partner right now.

J: Yeah. I mean, I think there were two sort of evolutions that happened, or maybe two or three. I mean, one is the sort of the maturity of our marriage as we get to, I guess, most. And I sort of think about this as the third phase of our marriage. This is kind of the Esther Perel line, which I really like, is, you know, when she deals with couples dealing with infidelity, she often uses this line: "You know, so your first marriage is over. Are you ready to have a second marriage to the same person?" And I think for M and me, that's kind of how things evolved. We had sort of the first phase of our marriage which was, um, you know, our original dating life and enmeshment and togetherness, you know, with moving around the world, raising our kids. The second phase was still with our kids, but more of a, you know, open ENM occasional swingerish type experiences, um, to this third phase. And that aligns, I think, with the maturity of our marriage. It also aligns itself with now being empty nesters, which is again, I think, a challenge for us a little bit in the poly world. We would love to have other couples who have been through similar experiences to use kind of as role models. Um, but in fact, what often ends up happening is that because we have a pretty large community of open, you know, poly friends, a lot of them turn to us for advice and guidance, you know, because we've been through so much together. But it's much harder for us to turn to them because their perspectives just don't, you know, they can't bring to it the same type of life experiences and challenges.

So I think one piece is that, and then the second is time, you know, as your kids leave the house and. And you have more availability of opportunity to do things, you're more likely to do it. And I think the third. And then I maybe have M talk about this because I think this is what's most important to her is that, uh, she feels that her growth in life hasn't somewhat been constrained by the roles of parenting and being the spouse. And especially since my career was the more dominant one throughout life. And so part of this more poly exploration is important for her to sort of realize what she wants to be in life. You know, knowing that we're all, you know, there's all some sort of immortality in the end. So anyway, I'm going to stop there because I think that's M's story to tell. But I think it would be helpful for people to hear about.

M: Yes, I mean, I feel that, uh, well, I'm. I tend to be an extroverted introvert. And so I think, uh, for me a lot of my energy comes from, from being around people. And um, that I think part of this poly life, uh, for me is actually having intimate experiences and not necessarily sexual, but with other people who I can grow with and develop, uh, different interests or hobbies and expanding beyond just my marriage. Um, so that I think has been really important to me and is what the travel part of it. Having travel experiences with somebody outside of just our marriage has, I think, been meaningful. For me, uh, and more opportunities with somebody who, uh, is very different from J. I, um, think while we both fill a lot of the gaps for each other, um, you can't always fill everything, um, for that person. And for me, I think having these extra relationships, um, can meet more of my needs that, um, I want.

F: Yeah. I think that kind of transition to parenthood must be so hard on the woman specifically. Right. Like, especially if you are the main caregiver, that idea of you, like, as a sexy woman, like, independent, becomes you changing diapers. I think that a lot of women struggle with that, losing a bit of their identity. And even as I'm sure you guys are, even, like, if you have all the intentions for the. For things being equal tends to happen, that the man's job pays better. So then that means that, ah, it makes more sense for us women. And this will be the case for me when we have children because Seth earns so much more money than I do. So it's really interesting to hear that having other relationships helps you kind of regain that sense of, like, okay, I'm not necessarily just a mother or a wife. Like, I can just be a sexy woman going out on a date. Right. And I think that as much as you have a, uh, good sexual relationship with J. J and your children are one package in a way. Right. I mean, now that the children are out of the house is maybe easier. But, like, sometimes you can't really get that with your. With your husband because husband and kids come together and then that. That identity is there. I think that having outside relationships gives you that opportunity to feel independent again. Perhaps.

M: Yes. I think you say it perfectly. Yep.

J: And I would say that this is. And this is a challenge that I face is like, actually accepting that, like, for me, the way I've viewed these relationships has. Is somewhat differently than the way M has. I always thought of them as additions or as just an, uh, extra. You know, I don't know if you use food or something as an analogy, like a side snack or a dessert or something like that, like, to make life a little bit more interesting, but wasn't necessarily core to my personal development or meaning in life. Um, even though these people were meaningful to me and important and close friendships. Whereas I think for M they were much more part of her core identity and development. And it was. We've struggled a lot with this. I've struggled a lot with it. Trying to. With the same question you asked early on. Am I enough? Right. Like, it. Like, I constantly have gone back over the years on different occasions when I felt insecure and said to M, like: "Wait, wait, didn't I do enough to make, as M pointed out before, that I've always made her feel loved and like she was enough, then I would feel like, oh my God, did I actually not do enough of that?" And I should have done more, you know. And I guess another thing that's important for your listeners to think about is that I think these are just all normal feelings that come and go. Right. And it's really hard to like, train your brain to never have them. I think it's better to let them come to you if they come, but just learn better coping skills. And so, uh, for me that's just been really important and also to be able to ask them lesson. It's like when I'm feeling that insecurity being like: "Can we spend some time together? Can we just snuggle on the couch tonight?" Or do something that makes me feel reconnected. Um, because I understand intellectually what she needs. It's feeling that emotional security to let that happen. I think that's often been a challenge and I think for her as well, but just in different ways.

F: Yeah, I think that you know it intellectually, but your feeling might not be match with what you're thinking intellectually. You know, she loves me, I'm enough, blah, blah, blah. But then the moment she goes maybe on a trip with her other partner and you realize how much she needed it, you're like, oh, haven't I been given her this in one of our previous episodes with Carol and David (E20). I don't know if you, if you've met them, but they named that mismatch between what you're thinking and what you're feeling. Wonkies or something. Like they have a name.

M: I do know her. She was in my, um, ladies ah group, um, and she used the wonkies. I always remember her saying that.

F: Oh, nice. What group is this?

M: We had, um, I mean, we don't meet anymore, but, um, for about five, six years, um, a poly ladies group. Um, so we would, uh, meet once a month and just sort of talk about some of the difficulties that we were all having. We'd each have a turn to talk about it or the positives that we're having as well. And, and so it was a really lovely support group.

F: Oh, that's awesome.

M: We had going on for a while.

F: That's awesome. Um, uh, yeah, I'll definitely add, uh, the link in the show notes for the episode with them. I thought it was a really great. Ah, one. And I'll share it with you guys as well if you want to listen to it. But yeah, I like that she had a word for it. Because sometimes we feel guilty. Like: "Why am I feeling this way? If I know this, I should know better." I think that we all need to recognize feelings are feelings and you can't necessarily control them. And I think that when you accept, okay, my brain is telling you one thing, but my body is telling me another thing. And you actually honor what your body is telling you. And then you are like, okay, well, I am feeling jealous or I'm feeling not enough. Let's snuggle. Let's whatever it is that you need to do. Um, I

don't know if you have any other like, coping strategies for. I know you mentioned just asking for, uh, reassurance, but anything else that you guys do when you are feeling the wonkies.

M: I mean, I think mostly, uh, it's talking about it. And like J said, I think it's the physical connection that sometimes makes you feel a little bit closer. Ah. And helps, um, ah, feel connected to your partner.

J: Yeah, I think it takes a while to recognize this and understand it. When I'm feeling out of sorts and things I want sex and cuddling and, you know, saying good things about each other to me, that's what really brings me together.

M, uh, often doesn't feel that like, doing that unless she feels positive. Right. She has a harder time saying, like: "Okay, well, we're just gonna, you know, I'm gonna shower you with attention because if I'm feeling negative," it doesn't come as easily to her. And then she herself also often needs space to process things before she's ready to come to me. And you know, again, a lot of this has to deal with your kind of attachments and the way you deal with things. And, and so this has been a tension that we've always dealt with even long before we opened our relationship. So. And again, I think it's one of those things that you really need to know yourself and your body. And I found that over time I'm still learning about myself. And I think I guess I like to use, uh, you know, the sort of the idea that like, I'm here from the future to tell people who are younger you're not going to ever know yourself perfectly. Like, you're just going to keep learning and because as things change, you're going to change and you're going to feel differently about stuff. And, and the same is true with Your relationship, even if you've been together 30 years as a M and I have, I am still discovering things about her that I didn't know. And they're not secrets. They're just things about the way she thinks and views the world that it's like, oh, now I. Now I understand a little better.

F: That's great to hear. That's great to hear. You know, as someone who has, like, been five years with someone and hopes to be with that person for a long time, it's good to hear that there's always new things coming up.

M: I think going back on to the wonkies as well was, uh, early on, when we were first starting dating, uh, we weren't sleeping over at people's houses at that time. And so we'd come home after a date and get in bed with our partner. And that was one time where I didn't want him touching me, actually. I would want him to stay on his side of the bed. I'd be on my side of bed for that first night. And it wasn't until maybe the following night that I was ready then to reconnect. Whereas the opposite was the case for him. I would come home from a date. As soon as I came home. All he wanted to do was hug me and snuggle with me and hear about it, as he had mentioned earlier.

F: Yeah, yeah. And it's also like recognizing that different things work for different people and that, uh, it doesn't, as you guys were saying before, like, it doesn't have to be even, right? Like, then, okay, then when J comes back from a date, you guys take some time. And when you, you, M, come back from a date, then you snuggle. It's fine. Like, you don't have to, like, act the same when you guys come back from. From a date. Going back to, like. J, you mentioned that sometimes for M, it's difficult to give you that thing that you need at that moment. I think that the asking for reassurance comes with the caveat of there's no fix. Most of the times it's just, I'm, um, feeling jealous. And it doesn't mean, like, the other person needs to stop dating. You know, it might just mean, okay, well, let's talk about it. Oh, you're feeling jealous. Oh, I'm so sorry you feel that way. But without taking it on and then move on, do what you need to do. Cuddle or have sex or watch a movie together or take some space. It might not be the case with you guys, but I Think that what often happens is people are like, okay, I'm going to ask for reassurance because I'm feeling jealous. And then the other person is like: "Oh, shit, what did I do? I fucked up." When the other person maybe didn't do anything wrong, it doesn't have to become a whole conversation of,: "Why do you feel jealous? What do we need to change?" Like, maybe you don't need to change anything. You just need to be with the feeling for a little bit. Right?

M: Right, yeah. Yeah. I think the way J and I both approach, these are different. Like, he does want to communicate and talk about it and have the answers and the quick fixes where I am usually the one, wait, give me 24 hours, 48 hours. I need to process, I need to take some time and then we can come back together and have a discussion. And I'm a little bit slower to sit in my thoughts and, uh, think through things a little bit more before I'm ready to actually come back and talk about them.

J: Yeah, people ask us all the time, like: "How could you do this? I could never handle it." And honestly, the skills that I've developed by having intimate relationships with other people outside of my marriage have helped me in my work and in my non sexual friend life. Everywhere. I have learned to communicate better. This specific issue you just mentioned, my tendency is to help even if somebody only wants to be heard or wants hugs. And I have had to learn how to shift that way as well too. So, you know, to me, you know, kind of the same forces that, that drove us to move around the world and to take on the challenges of having multiple kids and, and to solve all these complex problems and stuff were, were somewhat similar to some of the personal growth that we get from the poly life. It creates incredible feelings of love and affection and intimacy and erotic energy. But it also comes with a lot of incredible challenges. But I do think that the skills we're building, um, in learning how another person copes and deals with insecurities and how we manage that ourselves, helps us in every aspect of our life.

F: Yeah, definitely. And it sounds like you guys have really grown a lot, which is really great to see.

F: Hi everyone. Before we go into the second part of this interview, I want to quickly tell you about two things. If you're listening to this podcast, you've probably realized by now non-monogamy can be really challenging. You may need help learning how to communicate, set boundaries, or even just figure out what it is that you want in the first place. That's why I created Polycurious. And that's also why I became a relationship coach. So if you feel like you need a hand walking down the polycurious path, you can schedule a free exploratory call with me by going to our website. Secondly, I wanted to tell you about STDcheck if you have more than one or even multiple sexual partners who are also likely to have sex with other people. Getting tested for STDs is so important, especially in today's world where they are becoming increasingly common. This is why we have partnered with stdcheck, a platform that makes it extremely easy to get tested. You can pay online, schedule an appointment and um, visit one of their many facilities in the US on the same day. And unlike m other services that take weeks, they actually send you the results in just one to two days. So if you want a $10 discount to get tested, visit the link in the show notes or go to polycurious.com. now back to the show.

Since we're talking about challenges and you mentioned how, you know, your younger like non-monogamous friends come to you, uh, and like you wish you maybe had a couple like you that had the same specific challenges. What, what are those specific challenges that you feel like you experience and that maybe you don't have other people to turn to and then you know, what would you say to people out there? Because I'm sure that people, there's some people, there's going to be like a couple listening that maybe does have your situation. What would you tell to them?

M: I think one of them was the kids having kids. Ah, and navigating that. Uh, I think both of us in retrospect now, um, wish we'd maybe done it differently with the kids. We only opened up to them in the past year. I think it is a year, uh, year and a half.

F: And how old are they now?

M: We let them know, um, 24, 21 and 19. Um, and uh, when we did open up, um, I was actually ah, having a morning with my daughter because now we have, you know, our partner sleeping over sometimes and she had come back from college or actually was moving into our house because she had um, left her ex boyfriend and so needed a place to stay. I was actually, I think going to my partner's um, place so I wasn't going to be home. And so I felt like I needed to tell her and so I said, well, just to let you know, you know, your dad and I are in an open relationship. And she was like: "I know I've known that."

F: Oh, really? And, uh, which ones is one?

M: This is my oldest. And so it was not a surprise. And things had come out over time. I think my sisters had had an accidental discussion with her about it, but had never shared that with me. And then, really, what she says, I heard what you and dad were talking about, um, back, you know, 10 years ago, when we would have. We lived in a small apartment, um, in New York City with five of us. And so when we had to have discussions about what was going on, you know, there wasn't a lot of space. And so I'm sure that they were hearing, or I know now that they were hearing a bit of it.

J: We used to call her Big Ears because she could, like, hear everything that was going on, so obviously.

M: Yes. So. And the sad thing is, though, you know, she said: "You know, at the time, I thought you and dad were getting divorced, and, um, that there was, you know, there were problems." And so I think they probably would have been a little bit better off had we shared that information with them about what was going on. We at the time thought we shouldn't because we didn't want them to be burdened with what we were doing, and we thought they had enough on their plate. The last thing they need to do, you know, to know about is what their mom and dad are up to, um, outside of their marriage. So. But I think it would have been nice to have friends to discuss that with and, um, to have, um, some suggestions about how to go about.

J: Yeah, I would just echo what M said and say, I think we made a mistake in not being. In not recognizing that kids are much smarter than I was willing to give them credit for. Number, um, one. Number two is to believe that it's better to hide them from whatever challenges you're going through. I don't think they need to know the intimate details of it, but to reassure them that your mom and I are doing these other things. And it's been a great source of fun. But also, we might be working on things together to solve them. I think that was more important. I think, for me, I've always had this sense, based on the way my childhood was and things. I really wanted to protect them and shelter them from any instability in the home. And, in fact, I think that they would have been better knowing that they always knew that we love each other, but knowing that there was like: "Oh, we also have this other thing, and we're not sneaking around." I think they also felt like we were sneaking around them and they had a Right to know. Whereas I still don't feel like they do have a right to know. I still feel the parents have a right to their privacy. Um, because we're in this, you know, it's a dependent relationship. Um, but I do think that there's a level at which they felt there was an element of trust that was broken by us, not at least giving them a little bit more information along the way. So anyway, so advice to people who have, you know, children, especially, you know, when I think before they're teenagers, it's too young, possibly depending on your relationship. But when they become teenagers and sexual aware, I think it's important to just be upfront about, um, the fact that you do other things and also be clear about what your privacy boundaries are and say, look, I'm going to tell you this much. I'm not going to tell you beyond there unless it's really important for you.

F: And how do they feel about it now?

J: Yeah, I mean, I think their general take and M can, can give her perspective because she's probably had more intimate discuss. My daughters don't feel as comfortable talking about the kind of intimate details with me. M's had a little bit more of that with them. Uh, it's actually really interesting. So I say broadly speaking, they are fine with whatever choices we make as long as we are now telling them about them. I think that's the thing, number one. Number two is they're very clear that they don't want to know our partners as our partners. Like they have met people that I've dated or M dated in the past, but it's always been in the context of: "Oh, here are some friends that are coming over to dinner" as opposed: "This is J's partner or M's partner." Um, so they're okay with things that we do. They just want to have a little bit of clarity about when we go out that what we're doing, just saying, oh, we're going to. As opposed to just saying we're going to be gone until tomorrow, saying, exactly, we're going to go meet a partner of ours or something. And the third is they just want some boundaries on having family time being somewhat sacred. Um, and there's another one of my partners is, has the exact same relationship with her kids. Um, there is something interesting though about the way kids react and that we've learned, which is that they all have. We couldn't have predicted how each of them would view non- monogamy. They reacted in ways that we didn't think was actually what uh, we would have predicted based on how we've known them since they were born.

M: Yes, I had the conversation with my daughters eight months ago or so when I was in Paris with them and it came up and we started talking about non-monogamy. And our oldest daughter has always been sort of the most, um, academic, most thoughtful and um, uh, I would say maybe feeling a little more uptight. And our middle daughter to me was always a little bit more free flowing and uh, lighthearted and um, I think accepting and all that. And when I was talking about this, um, my second daughter, she immediately said: If you need to have non-monogamy, there's something wrong with your relationship." And my older daughter was much more intrigued by it and had already thought about it and so I was surprised, um, to hear their reactions. Um, both of them though were fine. You do what you need to do and um, as long as you and dad are happy and we'd like you to, you know, continue to stay together. So if that's the case, then that's fine. But, but um, yes, it was surprising to see their personalities come out in that way.

F: Yeah, it's so interesting because you know, I've heard and experienced like the other way, like me talking to my mom and my mom kind of thinking, but that means that there must be something wrong, right? Like, I mean a lot of people who are unfamiliar with it think that. And my experience was that they just need a little bit of education, they've heard this before, that like there must be something wrong in your relationship. So they're just kind of like almost repeating what they've been taught. And then when, if they are actually open to like listening and you are open to sharing, one often is very surprised by how actually receptive to it they can be. I don't know if you just had that one conversation and that's it, or if you've had other conversations with, with your uh, daughter. But I wonder if you think that maybe now she's wrapping her head around it a little bit more.

M: We've had some conversations since then and she's accepting, she's fully accepting of our situation. I think she's been dating the same guy for three years. I think she's very happy in her relationship, looking forward to marriage and children and I think a very traditional sense. So for her that is what she's interested in, which again is fine as well. I don't, I think there's no right way to have a relationship. So I think in the past few months, since we've had more and more conversations around this. We had them all home for the summer. All three of them were back in our apartment for three months. So we had, um, many conversations during that time. And I think, uh, they've all, um, been very kind about it, yeah.

J: And I think this is where, again, we sort of have to accept the fact that if you haven't been through the long arc of a relationship decades, it's just very hard to conceptualize how things may change and evolve over time. Um, I can tell you from my perspective, and I assume most of them would say the same thing. We had just had no idea how our interests and personalities and, uh, feelings both about just life in general, but about sex, kinks, other things would evolve over time. And I think we got very lucky finding partners. I know I certainly did. Finding in M somebody whose core values and sense of adventure and sense of humor and sense of fun were such that we could evolve and go in a direction like this, whereas I never would have imagined that possible. And for our kids too. And that's what we've said to them. It's like, look, you may want this right now, but you may want something else in the future. And so it's just important to, number one, know that there are different alternatives available. Um, and number two, have the language to communicate them. And I'll just say one thing really quickly about alternatives. I do think that because people ask a lot of time like, well, why wouldn't you get divorced? Or what happens if this happens? And there have been many times M and I have, like, argued and fought so fiercely that we've thought about, like: "Oh, maybe we should break up. Maybe we should really shouldn't be doing this together." And we just are profoundly in love and committed to making this work. That's number one. But number two is I actually think non-monogamy helps because you can get your needs met in other ways.

And you can understand that there's a model for marriage that isn't that very tightly enmeshed. One that we thought was the only model during that kind of first marriage that we had our first phase of our marriage, how we describe it.

F: Yeah. And I think that to your point, J, of even though you've had your moments when you've been like: "Okay, maybe we should get a divorce," ultimately this is helping you staying together. I, uh. It reminds me something that someone, um, I interviewed said tha: "It's not like, because I fall in love with someone else, then I'm going to break up my marriage and go. I'm actually going to stay in my marriage because I can be in love with someone else and I can be in my marriage still." You know, I feel like that's why I can be long term with my partner, because not only is he, like, supportive and we have a great relationship and everything, but, like, if anything, things get stale or we get annoyed with one another, we were bored, or I feel like I need something different. I do have that outlet to like, bring back that energy into my relationship. Like it sounds like you guys did from the very beginning, right?

J: Yeah. You need to, you need to be able to, I think, to look past your own insecurities and recognize that you're both trying to grow together. You have to be willing to adapt and change. And I think the common trope you hear is, oh, they opened their marriage and then they got divorced. So therefore, you know, opening your marriage is the pathway to divorce. Well, the same argument can made for dating. I mean, I know 99% probably of dates end up without a long term relationship. Right. Over 50% of marriages end of divorce. So you could argue that monogamy always leads to it too. So I, I think that for me, it's about, and this is why I think your podcast is so helpful in other things is, you know, let people pick the dynamic model that they want. Let them pick a model that's dynamic and let that model change. You know, if you really love and commit to that person, you can find a way to make it work. Um, and it could involve other people. It could not involve other people. It can change over time.

F: Yeah. And for you guys, it has evolved. Like, sounds like you started kind of wanting to be swingers and you ended up polyamorous. But I'm curious, um, you've mentioned you each have like one, like, sounds like committed partnership. Do you ever play together or have played together or have dated someone together?

J: Yes, we do enjoy being with our other partners and each other as well too. I mean, it's, it's, it's more, uh, I think M enjoys it even more than I do. More than, I mean, you know, I mean, I enjoy the sort of separateness of relationships, but I also enjoy us being together because we love each other.We're not threatened by the kind of intimacy that you can get with other people so much. Um, so we do like and enjoy and share those experiences when they come together. We've learned over time to be a little bit more again. Like I said earlier on, we were just much more like, oh, let's just Try anything. But I think we've gotten a little bit more selective as time goes on about how we bring people, People together because we, we now have a much better sense of, you know, chemistry and issues and how people relate to things. And so we are a little bit more thoughtful about when we do kind of group activities than we might have used to in the past.

F: So sounds like you have played with M and her two partners in separate, I assume, like settings.

J: Every configuration you can possibly imagine, let's put it that way, you know, with them just as a small group, them in a big group, then with other people. Yes. Yeah. We've kind of done everything.

F: Yeah, right the other way around.

J: Yeah. Yeah. I mean we're pretty much open to uh. I mean for us, you know, sex is, has. I mean, I guess maybe there are many different meanings, but there's the playful component, there's the sort of romantic and love component and there's times when it has all of those together. Right. And uh, so we enjoy it for every aspect that it has. I mean, I think as time has gone on we're much more interested and committed to our relationships being these very meaningful and deep love connections. But it doesn't mean we don't also enjoy playing from time to time and having fun when the circumstances and things are right with other people. And um, for us it doesn't have that same, I think, weight that it might. I think what's really critical is that the two adults are entering it, are very open and respectful of each other. I mean, I think probably my biggest challenge for me is that it's just, it is much as you talk to any poly community, it's just much, much harder for a straight cis male who's married to meet, um, you know, partners on an ongoing basis than it is for a, uh, you know, then, for example, for M's situation, um, simply because there's the, there's kind of that in between, like there's, there's, there's people you can just meet up for occasional friends with benefits types, things that's not super challenging if you're kind of nice and normal and you're out there and you're in a big, you know, community, like, like New York is, um. But finding people who want to have a sort of deeper, more meaningful, in depth commitment while you're also married. I think it's much, much more challenging in some ways for men than it is for women. Although that's, I think there's people that could probably give you. They're probably you know, as soon as I say that, I'm sure there probably 100 examples somebody could give in converse. But I guess that's kind of been our experience a little bit.

F: Mhm.

M: Oh, I was just thinking back. For me, sex is just another form of communication. And so that's kind of what I get out of it. Whether it's individual one on one, or with, you know, multiple people together, um, I feel like it's just a, an added way to communicate. Um, and for me, who tends to be a quiet introvert or whatever, it's, I think it's a fun experience.

F: Mhm. Yeah, I noticed that how you view sex is similar how I view it. You know, it just feels to me like, why not? Like, I don't know how to explain it better. But you know, I think that a lot of people are like: "Oh, it's either either friends or romance. And romance is romance and sex go together and friends, you don't do any sexy things with friends." And for me it's like I can have a friend who's attractive and um, you know, if we are both willing to engage in that type of like sexual relationship, I can very much put the romance aside and just focus on, on that experience. Right. I think that I become more cautious about it because I think that I've like had that mentality before with people who maybe had the other mentality of romance and sex go together. Right. So I think that I'm a lot more careful and also just because of time commitment and all of that. But I, I find that I've always found that really interesting like that distinction because yeah, not, not many people can say what you just shared, M, and what I'm sharing, that like using sex as a way of communicating or that, uh, you know, like, sure, I would prefer like a deeper connection, but if it's a friends with benefits, I'm fine with that as well, you know, and I think that it's very interesting but. Well, we could continue chatting. There's so many. It's been so interesting and there's so many. Before I wrap up, I normally like to ask, uh, all of my guests kind uh, of like as a final message for the listeners, what would you tell to a polycurious person?

J: I would say that number one, you know, have a deep discussion both with yourself as well as with your partner or other partners, what it is that you're looking for in this experience. Um, you may not know for sure, but it's helpful to think about. Is this for play, is this for personal growth is this for, you know, additional deep love in your life? Um, I think it's very helpful to know that about yourself and be able to communicate that to your, especially if you have another partner, so that you can both be on the same page of why you're doing it and what the opportunities and the threats are. I would say that's number one. Number two is I think it's really great now as opposed to when we opened up that there was so much information available, whether it's your Polycurious podcast or whether it's, you know, brilliant writers like Esther Perel, I would say do a lot of reading and thinking about this issue from other sources to hear others experiences. And the third is know that there's abundance and opportunity. Like, it's not as if you do this in your 20s and you don't have a good experience, you can't do it again five years later or 10 years later or 15 years later. You can be like M and me and have these things evolve over time. Um, so understand that it's not something you try once and never have to try again. You can go in different directions at different times in your life depending upon your needs.

F: Yeah, yeah, that's great. M go for it.

M: Yeah, I think, um, my thoughts probably mimic J and um, number one, being intentional, um, about uh, what you're doing. Uh, be thoughtful, read up on things, listen to podcasts, um, but with all that, be flexible, um, because things will change. You can prepare all you want and think that things are going to happen the way you want. And I could say probably 100% with certainty they won't go the way you necessarily want or expect. One phrase that our friend who's part of this community often uses is, um, low expectations and high possibilities. So don't have, you know, high expectations, um, but, but know that the possibilities are high, uh, uh, for your experiences.

F: I love that. I love that. Well, thank you guys so much.

J: Thank you for having.