S: One of the best pieces of advice that I got was to always stay true to who you are. Of course, like you're in a relationship, you have to know what your partner is feeling and you have to consider them in everything. But at the same time, you can't lose yourself in that. You need to know where your boundaries are and you need to keep to them. Because if you are giving in to your partners every need and ignoring your own, you're never going to feel fulfilled in this relationship.

Fernanda: Hi everyone. So today I am chatting with S & J a, uh, married couple from Brooklyn. They have been exploring non-monogamy for about three years now. And in this conversation they really opened up about their journey and their struggles and gave a lot of great tips for couples. We talk about how they each have different preferences when it comes to opening up, although they like to stay away from labels. J, who is a man, identifies more as open and initially was more interested in having experiences as a couple. And S, who is a woman, actually identifies more as poly and wanted to see people independently. So we talk about that process and how it was hard for J when S, uh, started to want to see people independently and how he learned to manage his jealousy and eventually reach a place in which they both feel comfortable in the relationship. So I think this episode is great for people who might be in a similar situation in which you have different ideas of what opening up looks like, uh, and perhaps even different levels of jealousy, which I believe is very common because being non-monogamous takes many, many different forms. So I really hope you enjoyed this episode and learn from it as much as I did.

I'm here with some friends who I'm very excited to introduce you to. I met them I think like two years ago at a poly mixer and we've met a few times since, just randomly. And every time that I see them is such a nicerprise. Uh, so I'm very excited to get to learn a little bit more about their relationship. We're calling them E and J. And yeah, they've been married for four years now, right?

S: Just over four.

F: Over four years. And um, how would you describe your relationship actually? Would you say it's like an open relationship, uh, polyamorous relationship or.

S: Um, yeah, we never truly identified as polyamorous. Um, we like to stay away from official labels but at the same time if we were to call it anything, it would be open. Um, I guess because it's just ambiguous, it can kind of mean anything. Um, and I feel whereas poly is a little more Concrete, like, it's. It just means a little bit more.

J: Yeah, it describes a type of relationship which, um, a big, A big part of our relationship is that we can discuss and change it up all the time. So if we label ourselves and we put it in a box, then suddenly we're in a box and that's. That'not what we like. We like the freedom to be able to discuss it amongst ourselves and then create something out of it.

F: Right, yeah, that makes sense. So maybe you guys want to, um, introduce yourselves, talk about what you do to the extent that you are comfortable sharing, um, a little bit of, like, background.

S: Um, I am identifying as S tonight, and I am from Brooklyn, also born and raised. And, um, I come from a religious home, if that means anything in this podcast. And, um, I'm currently working as a florist. It wasn't always what I was doing. Um, I studied art and theaterre in school, and, um, I briefly worked at a restaurant, um, called the Playboy Club. And that is where I had lots of fun dressing up as a bunny. Um, and, yeah, that job kind of allowed me to explore my sexuality and, you know, the way I identify a little bit, um, personally. Um, but, yes, I moved away from that and loving my job as a florist and loving working with botanicals.

F: That sounds awesome. Bunny and florist. I love it.

J: So, uh, I'm J and I'm from Coney Island. I graduated with a degree in neuroscience, and I'm going for medicine. Um, currently, uh, in the application process for, uh, grad school.

S: O.

J: So I finished undergrad, and now I'm. Now I'm in the final steps.

F: Awesome. I guess we can start from the beginning. Like, you know, I don't know how your experience was, but at least for me, if someone asked me, like, oh, you ever be in an open relationship? I'd be like, uh, no. When you really love someone, that's who you wa wantna be with. And that was my idea. And, you know, that changed over time. So I don't know if that was your experience, but can you, like, go back to a moment in which you started to change your perspective?

J: Um, so we actually found it sort of by accident. Um, even though the conversation had a little bit of a running line in our minds for a while, it wasn't necessarily directed at poly was more at, um, if we wanted to have an experience, we can have a conversation about it. Uh, we didn't want to close each other off. And, I mean, life has so many.

F: Things to offer and why, especially in this city.

J: Right. Especially in New York City. And, um, eventually we. We were at a party and it was actually on my birthday.

F: Oh, wow. How many years ago was it?

J: This was 2017, I think.

F: So three years ago. So, like, uh, was this like one year into your relationship or two years or so?

S: Believe it was a year. And change into our marri.

J: Right. Year're our marriage.

S: So that must have been three years into our relationship.

J: Little over years.

F: You guys have been together for seven years? That's insane.

S: Give or take or.

F: Yeah. Yeah. And how, if you don't mind me asking, how around. How old are you?

S: Like, um, I'm 26 and I just turned 28.

F: Right. Okay. Yeah. So my age. Wow.

J: Um, so we were at a party and we bumped into, um, this really cool couple. Um, we ended up hanging out with them. Um, we spoke a little bit and we sort of went our separate ways, found them online, and, um, we just started conversing and they invited us for dinner, which we went over and had. Um, unbeknownst to us, they had intention in mind, and we were just completely oblivious. Um, somewhere in the middle of that conversation, they realized that we were oblivious. They sort of stopped, um, opened up to us about why they invited us, um, what their lifestyle is like, and they actually gave us a chance to understand it. Um, we didn't do anything that night. Um, we mostly just spoke.

F: And how did they approach that? How did they. You know, Because I can imagine if I liked a couple and I wanted to, you know, be with them, I wouldn't know what to say. You know, like, it's kind of a, um, I mean, obviously you can flirt or whatever, but sounds like they were straightforward about.

J: Right. So it was dinner. So first we were getting to know each other a little bit more, and there was definitely flirting going on. So we picked up on. On that. Eventually the conversation just led there. And it wasn't like they were pushing, you know, an agenda. It was regular flowing conversation. And just based on that, they realized that we were a little, um, we didn't know anything about, um, polyamory or being open or anything like that. So once the conversation opened and we discussed it, it kind of opened the channel for us for a conversation that we were already having. Like we mentioned before, it's sort of in a different area, but, um, we started talking about it and over time we got our chance to explore with that couple. With that couple, too. Um, but yeah, it took a long time till we explored with that couple or anybody. We just talked about it first, and then we.

F: It seems like as remembers it differently the long times. A long time.

S: Uh, or maybe just I kind of experienced it differently. O. Um, from what I recall, um, going back to when you asked, um, back when we were dating, this is even before we were married, um, how itever came up in conversation. Um, I remember discussing the fact that we never wanted to cheat on each other and how we thought that cheating was disgusting and horrible. Someone very close to J cheated, um, on his partner.

J: Wife.

S: Right. Yeah. So, um, I think it's just a little bit of a trauma for him. And, um, you know, when we were dating, it was something that was very important to us that we never wanted to do that to each other. Um, so I think that's where the conversation started. Whereas, like, instead of cheating, we would rather have a conversation. Um, and then that kind of, like, set the ball rolling. Um, and we got married. And then right about a year in, we went to a party. Um, that was very Burning Man feel. You know, kind of had that, like, everybody loves each other. Yeah. Type of vibe. And it was our first exposure to a party like that. You know, wen't we hadn't been to the Burn yet. Um, so, yeah, that was, like, so new for us. And, um, that kind of opened this whole new world for us. And, um, then we have some close friends who perform at House of Yas a lot. Um, who you know, too. And, um, they invited us out to a House of Love partyeah. Um, they didn't know that we were, like, thinking about being open yet. But, um, yeah, they told us to come because they were performing and they wanted us to have fun and they knew that we would enjoy it regardless. Um, and at this party, uh, that couple that J mentioned earlier that we met at the burlesque party, um, they were with us at this House of.

J: Love'party the first time that we experienced something together with ite.

F: But, yeah, I also remember having gone to this party, which, like, just to clarify for the listeners, um, it's just like a regular party at a club, but people go dressed like very sexy, like, minimal clothes. There's, like, really sexy dancers, and there's no sex or anything. But, um, it's a sexy party, you know, supposedly too.

S: Yeah, I like to call it, like. Yeah, a little taster. At this first party, this House of Love party, um, J and I decided, like, on the spot that this was something that we wanted. I remember we were there with all our friends. We were really excited to be in this new space. Um, and we were still on a high from that burlesque grade party.

F: Was this a couple of weeks later.

S: Was like a month and a half. But anyway, we literally, you know, stepped aside, just us two, and we said, hey, is it okay if, like, we just, like, make out with other people at this party? And we were like, yeah, let's do it. Let'let's try it out. Let's see how we like that. And, you know, we had already been to this couple's home where it was discussed and, you know, planted into our brain.

F: Ah.

S: So I think by the time this party came around, we were just ready to make the step and everything felt right.

J: That's when we really started, um, talking about it and seeing what it means. Um, we started hearing, um, about and understanding what the words boundary, consent. We only just started finding out about it then. Um, this was our experiment. Um, and I think the two of us decided that we were going to go at it as if it was an experiment. We acknowledged that many mistakes were going to happen, and we, we just said instead of getting angry at mistakes, which happened anyway, um, we would discuss them and going, going forward, we would, you know, either do something different or maybe just continue on with what we were doing based on that discussion.

F: Great. Can we talk about that? Can we talk about those mistakes?

S: Um, I remember it started to become a real problem where we had to actually sit down and figure it out when I wanted to start seeing people individually. Right, right. Yeah. So, J I decided that we were going to either do things together, um, like as a couple, you know, with either another couple or threesome or whatever, whatever it was, or if we would go to a play party. Um, you know, we can kind of just do whatever we wanted because it's a play party, and that's just what you're supposed to do. Um, but then I started wanting to see people on my own outside of a play party. Um, and we tried it, and it was quite difficult for J to handle at first. Um, but, you know, it's what I wanted, so I didn't want to give up on it.

F: Was it like, oh, I just want to see people dating app or whatever? Or was it like, there's this person that I like that I want to see?

S: Um, I think it started off as being random, where, you know, let's say someone that I met at a play party or someone that I met in the poly community, um, you know, we had a good time and I wanted to see them again. Um, but let's say, you know, we played at the party, you know, just me and that person without J So, you know, obviously if we would want to play again, it would want to be without, you know, the same. The same way. So, um, yeah, I think that's. That's how it began.

J: Right. And at the time, um, we just had two different goals. I wanted my intention, and I think this intention still stands very often. Even though at this point, um, our opinions of all of this has changed and we have completely different mentalities, uh, to what we've just mentioned. Um, initially the goal was really for me to play together with. Uh, I wanted to experience something with her that was outside of the box that I, um, found myself in.

S: Um, I remember we also really loved that it was bringing us closer together because it was forcing us to communicate in a really deep way, like at a very truthful way. Um, because it's, you know, it's like the most, uh, fundamental truth. It's like what you want in your relationship. That's so basic. So, yeah, it was like, forcing us to deeply connect in that way. So I think J really wanted us to keep connecting in that way.

J: Right. For me, um, it ended up being, um, as a means to an end. And then it extended to both of us. Um, and we use. We actually use this lifestyle to learn how to communicate. We use it as practice, um, I think putting the focus on it as something to experiment together with and practice a skill that relationships across the globe need Communication. I think that was one of the best decisions we made for this.

S: Um.

J: Um. And if I were to give anybody advice, uh, about being poly, if you're curious about this whole lifestyle, it is read up on communication. Learn about it. What does it mean? Like, that's. That's the. I think the best cue that anybody can give you.

F: Yeah. What do you think that it was, uh, what made you uncomfortable about us seeing other people?

J: Oh, it was very simple. It was. I was nervous that I was going toa lose her. I mean, you can't see her through the microphone, but this is really beautiful. And she's an amazing person, has an amazing heart, and I love her. Like, she is an incredible human. And I married her early on for a reason. Like, she is amazing. Um, and I was nervous. I didn't want to. Loser. And after a while, it got to a point where we, um, communicated enough, built enough trust in this, where this wasn't an issue any longer. And there are still some times where it rears its head. So, um, it's important to know that jealousy isn't something that goes away. It's just something that can be handled, like anger or like any other emotion that you. That you have. Um, um. But that journey, I wouldn't trade it. Like, all the downs that I had, they are the reasons why I have so many ups right now.

S: But it was a hard time for us, you know, in terms of our, um, non-monogamy Like, I was kind of.

J: I think that was the hardest.

S: Yeah, I was going in one direction and you were going in a different direction. Like, you wanted the experiences to be for us together, to grow together, to. To have fun together. And I was like, but there's so many other people I can have fun with. Like, why can't I be doing that? That's what I want. Um, so, yeah, we had to kind of like reassess what we were doing and how we were doing it. And, um. Yeah. And eventually we, like, mediated.

F: What were some things that maybe, like, helped you overcome that? Just like, practice.

J: Practice. For sure. Practice was definitely the number one. Um, number two was, um, affirmations. Um, us speaking to each other before and after. Before we would have the experience, we would do pre care and we would just talk about what we were going to do, what, you know, what the expectations are, whether we had any restrictions, uh, or something that, you know, we didn't want to do or didn't want the other to do, which we can talk about later. But, um, having restrictions on the other isn't exactly always beneficial. But, um. And then we would have the experience, uh, or s. Would have the experience. And then after, we would have aftercare. And they. That would really help because it affirmed that everything was indeed okay. And all these feelings, which are real, like people have feelings. You do get jealous, you do get nervous. You do get all these things. Um, um. And that is okay to feel, but it's also okay for the other to recognize that and say, I see you, I hear you, but this is why it's also okay. And that really helped us.

S: Yeah. Um, I also remember it being really frustrating for me when I would keep, like, reassuring you, like, I am not gonna leave you for somebody else.

J: Oh, that was so nervous.

S: I'm like, I'm really happy with you. I'm just slutty. I just like hooking up with other people, whatever. Like, you know.

J: And I did too.

S: Yeah, right. We were both doing the same thing. Um, but you just always had those nerves. I mean, to be fair, like, it is totally plausible for, let's say me to catch feelings for somebody else. Like that is a possibility. I'm not saying that it's totally not. But, um, you know, it's always something that's going to be spoken about. Like, I. I can, you know, I can say for certain that, uh, I will not leave you. But, you know, I can't say for certain if I won't catch feelings for someone, you know?

J: Right.

S: So I understand where the fear comes from. But at the same time, it was also very frustrating because, you know, I was being held back from doing what I wanted because you had those feelings of jealousy or fear, whatever they were. Um, and I remember there was this one time that, you know, kind of changed everything, um, where we sat down and we, you know, made a list. Because I remember every single time we would try speaking about this, we would just be arguing so much, just yelling over each other. I want this. No, I want that. You want that. You know, like, we weren't getting anywhere because a conversation just turned into an argument.

J: We weren't addressing the issue. She was saying, I want something, and I was saying, okay, but I want something else. That's not me answering her. That's me saying something else that I want. And her comment was left in the wind.

S: Right. Yeah.

F: Ah, the list.

S: Yeah. So we useful. We decided to sit down and make a list of. I remember I wrote down all of my desires of, like, what I wanted in my open relationship. And then I asked you to do the same. And then we also made another list of our hard nose. Because, you know, actually, um, a friend in the pay community told me this. He gave me this advice. He said, um, instead of saying what you want to do with someone else, because that list can go on and on forever. Like, yes to blow jobs, yes to, I don't know, whatever. But, like, that list can go on forever. So it's really important to discuss the hard nose. Um, let's say, like, condoms. Condoms, Right. Like, there always needs to be a cond.

F: No condoms.

S: No.

F: Yes, condoms. Yes, condoms

S: Right. So that's a good hard line right there. M. So that was an important part. Um, what else was on that list? Right, so there were the desires, and then there were the more realistic, um, parts where the compromises of what would we be okay with? And with each desire, we went through each one and tried to make it possible as most possible. So let's say, um, I wanted the ability to see whoever I wanted alone. And J would, let's say, say, um, okay, that's fine. But I don't know, we once tried this thing where it was like only three people a month or something. Ah, we tried to like limit the number or just to give it some sort of structure because it can just fly and go.

F: Yeah, that's how it was for me for a while. I didn't get three people. It was like once a month. I mean that has changed and evolved and that might sound to some people like oh, it's restricting or whatever but sometimes you just need to go, ah, baby steps you.

S: Right, exactly. Yeah. Restriction is scary. Um, because you, the whole point of being open or poly is you, I.

J: Think to express yourself.

S: Yeah. Like at least for myself, I'm speaking for me. I ve grew up being so restricted my whole life that this like being open kind of like gave me wings to fly. And then any form of restriction within this kind of made me feel like I'm in a cage again. So it's scary to have restrict feel.

F: So identified with so many things you are saying. Um, because I mean I'm super grateful for uh, you know, how much progress my partner has made. But I felt the same, for example about being spontaneous. He wanted me to ask every time that I wanted to do something and I'm just like, but I don't know what I want to do. I wantn to get there. I want to get to the party and figure it out or like, you know, I don't know if I want to have sex with this person or not. I wanna fill it out and then see how it goes. But I felt the same way even though he was giving me a lot of freedom because he was like, you can do quite a few things but you just have to ask before. I'd be like, but it's not enough freedom. Like, you know, like I need more spontaneity. I think it was, that was like the thing for me.

J: Yeah, the permission model tends to work for some people and not for others. Um, but all in all I think it's really important to say that you've got to try all of it. Um, it's important toore explore and experiment and make mistakes and be aware that mistakes are going to happen. Like there's no way that they are not going to happen. So coming at it with the expectation that there will be mistakes, with the expectation that not everybody's perfect, knowing that um, that will happen and then coming together and working on it together, um, that's what solidifies it.

F: When you were seeing other people at the beginning that J was feeling jealous, were you also seeing other people? But, um, as wasn't feeling as jealous or correct?

S: Yeah, I tried to not get jealous ever. Um, generally, I'm not a jealous person, so I was able to do it a lot easier. Um, there were very, very few times where I felt something that might resemble jealousy. Um, like, if I felt that another girl was more important. Um, like, you know, if I felt like I was lacking in attention from J or, you know, if. If I needed him at the moment and he was busy with another girl, that might have sparked some. Some jealousy within me. But I wouldn't even go as far as calling it that. But, yeah, that. That was my experience with that.

F: Your experience with jealousy, Would you, like, you know, complain to her, or would you just, like, isolate, um, yourself and not talk to her? What was your, like, reaction?

J: That was very verbal, um, to the point where I was doing some really, um, annoying, wrong things. Um, I always felt sabotaging.

S: I always felt guilty.

J: Yeah, I sabotaged and I made her feel guilty.

F: Was. How did you sabot?

J: Because I would, like, like, in middle of, while she was out with somebody, I might call her and be like, something happened, terrible going on. Uh, drama.

S: Yeah. And I hated that.

J: Yeah, that was pretty bad. And we had some long conversations about that. And eventually, um, I think time and conversation and communication heals. Not all, but most.

S: I tried to never feel jealous, so that way, maybe he wouldn't feel jealous.

F: I was about to ask that. Didn't he learn from your example?

S: So I think eventually it became. It became like who we are today. Like, it started off for me always letting him do whatever he wanted. Like, if he wanted to hook up with someone, I would be like, sure. You know, I would never kind of say no. Um, I would always let him do whatever he wanted, almost always. So that way he would give me the same freedom. And at first it didn't really work, but eventually it did. And now I think we kind of feel even like, you know, you've had your moments, I've had my momentse. It's not like I'm hooking up with more people than you are at this.

J: Point, even there, like, the number of people doesn't really matter. I think the, um, after, there was some pivot point. Let's say it was a year or a year and a half in whatever it was. Um, but there was some pivot point after which we were like, does the number matter? Like, but you're. You're sleeping with two people, but I'm sleeping with one. You know, like. And we were like, no, it doesn't actually matter. Once we got to that realization. Um, that helped a lot. Me overcoming the idea of being jealous, um, helped a lot. And once we sort of passed these little hurdles, and obviously they were, there were still more that came, um, as time went on. But once it passed that, those hurdles, those, um, those are my two major, um, wins. I would say you're going to feel things when you're in a relationship like this and feelings are okay. Like y. That's just what happens. That's just life.

S: Yeah. And instead of like fighting them, you should kind of get through them together.

F: You were saying that you might get like hooked with someone or like you might really like someone, but that doesn't mean that you're gonna leave him. Why doesn't it mean that you're gonna leave him?

S: Um, well, it might not be true for everyone, but for me personally, like, you know, we were re married. We made a commitment to each other. Like we signed papers. We didn't just do that for fun. We did that because this is truly what we want. Like we didn't have to get married, we wanted to get married. So making that commitment to one another know we always believed that uh, we wanted to stick together forever and like, no matter what comes along, well, always work through it instead of just disposing of our relationship and starting a new one. That doesn't make sense.

F: After so many years, so much work, so much history, you already know that you work together and ah, all of that.

J: And trading somebody's problems for other people's problems isn't really a good solution either. You, if you get into a fight with your significant other and you break up over that, um, it could be warranted. Um, but sometimes it's a problem that you can actually talk through. And if you trade for another person, you're just going to trade experiences and you're trading for other. One problem for another. And if you can't get through things and you can't learn to work through things, one problem in one relationship, even if it might not be the same in the second, it's still going to translate to failure because you can't work through the problem.

S: Right.

J: So that's the, that's the central skill, being able to talk it out.

F: Yeah. Yeah. Have any of you, like they did someone for like a prolonged period of time?

S: So I was seeing someone repeatedly and um, you know, never, we never put a label on it, but um, I found myself more comfortable seeing the same person over than seeing different, multiple people. Um, you know, we started out just keeping it random, like Ah, you know, we would go to a party, like, you know, hook up with this person and that person, and then the next week we would find this person on a, uh, dating app or whatever. Like it was, you know, all over the place. And I never found that fulfilling. I didn't really enjoy that. And u, um, I found myself enjoying seeing fewer partners, like either keeping it to one or two or three. But yeah, I, you know, for a while I was seeing just one and u, um, yeah, I mean, I think because we kept it really casual, it was fine, right? Ye, yeah, I guess it's still a little touchy.

J: This person. No, I don't think it is this person. Um, that we're referencing is, um. Initially it was a little challenging for me and it was around this relationship that s had that I overcame the jealousy concept that I was struggling with. Um, I wouldn't say that I defeated it entirely, but like, it was where I reached the point where I, I was like, all right, I got this, I got a handle on it. And it came after a realization that polyamory is good for some people and not good for other people. Because it depends on you. It depends on how much emotional energy you have. And for me personally, the reason why I don't identify as poly is because I'I'M so. I'm such a space. Like, I don't have enough emotional energy to invest in multiple people and give them, give them all the time that they need. And if I pretended a little exhausting, it's right, it's exhausting for me. And my brain is so all over the place. Like, I'm working and'doing school stuff and I have all these projects and like, little hobbies that I like to do and then being able to give somebody the attention that they deserve, that's. That's a real challenge for me. And if I can't offer that in the first place, I can't consider myself poly It wouldn't be fair to the other.

S: Person you want to keep.

J: S is way better than that. Ah, um, than me.

S: Right.

J: Um, she's able to, um, give her energy in and I wouldn't even say split her energy, but she's able to give energy in a way where everybody feels like they are, you know, held in the right way. And, um, if you're considering being poly or open or any of these, um, terms under the umbrella, I think it's really important that you are self aware and, you know how much energy, how much energy you can invest.

F: Yeah, I mean, it's Kind of similar to, uh, what I was saying. Even though, you know, I am open and my boyfriend isn't at the moment, we have different needs and like, or preferences. And my preference is to see multiple people. He just feels like he rather spend his energy in other things and you know, and like, he already. He already has me. Uh, but yeah, I also feel identified with what you were saying. Like, not wanting to see multiple people. Like when Seth was like, oh, you can only go to play parties at some point, I had to have this conversation. And this is why we switch. Like, I just don't want to go to a, uh, random play party and be like, oh, let's see who's there. Like, it's like, what's the point? Like, if I already know someone that I have a good connection, connection with, why not keep seeing that person, right? So what happened? If you guys are comfortable sharing with, like, this person that you were seeing, like, more regularly, are you still seeing this person or did you decide to.

S: He got a girlfriend. Yeah, that happen. But I might still be seeing him if he didn't. So. Yeah. And, um, I kind of wanted to talk about how as, um, a couple, I think we are, you know, identifying as open. But if we're going to be more personal about it, I might identify as being more poly than open. Um, and I'm the opposite, right?

J: I'm more open than poly.

S: I wanted to give it a shot. Like, um, what J really wanted in this relationship was that we would be doing things together, right? And I went out of my way for it. He wanted to go to a play party, I went with him, even though I wasn't fully comfortable with it. But I went and, um, you know, I did all the things. And, um, we tried doing things with individuals. Like we had people come over and had little mini play parties at our place. And, um, I always had this sense of unfulfillment after these parties. Like, I just felt a little bit, I don't want to say disgusted with myself, but, you know, I just didn't feel right. I didn't feel right after. Whereas if I would have an experience with just one other person that I felt a connection with after that, I felt really fulfilled and satisfied and happy with it. So, um, I don't know, maybe I am more poly, you know, than open. One of the best pieces of advice that I got, um, in this was to always stay true to who you are. Um, of course, like, you're in a relationship, you, um, you have to know what your partner is feeling. And you have to consider them in everything. But at the same time, you can't lose yourself in that. You need to know where your boundaries are and you need to keep to them. Because if you are giving in to your partners every need and ignoring your own, you're never going to feel fulfilled in this relationship.

J: It's really important that you really take care of yourself. Yeah. Uh, you have to know what you yourself want and need and taking breaks and taking pauses because you. You're in a status where you need to figure it out. That's okay.

S: That's very okay.

J: It's very, very okay. And we learned from that. Um, it was, it took a long time. And I told you, I said in the beginning, like, I made some. I think I made more blunders in this relationship as we figured it out than EST did. But, um, overall, I think I came out on the other side as a way more, ah, knowledgeable person.

F: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. It reminds me of what you said, uh, like when you guys realized that it wasn't like, oh, you know, you are being with two people, I'm with one person. Like, it's not about being the same and dating the same. It's just like getting your needs fulfilled. And everyone has different needs. Right. So, like, I mean, my relationship is a prime example of that. Like, you know, like, my boyfriend's needs are not my needs. But we're both happy and we're both content in their relationship. Um, and it is really up to, like, us to determine what that looks like.

S: Of course.

F: Yeah.

J: And you also never really know what's going on in the other person's brain. So when you, when you have something that really matters to you and you want to be true to yourself, it's important to realize that the other person can't look at you and assume that you can't just figure it out by.

S: Looking at somebody needs to be. Communicate.

J: You need to communicate. You can't. And it happened, um, many times on both of our sides where I felt something or as felt something and neither of us said it. And we're like, but, but like, how do you not understand this? O.

F: That happens time Yeah.

J: And the reason you don't understand that is because it never came out as spoken word. That's exactly why for us, it extended beyond sex too. Um, like I said, in the beginning, it was. It was used as a means to an end. I mean, maybe not initially, but eventually, communication. Eventually we figured out how to use this to our advantage for our everyday lives. And that really helped.

S: Yeah, I did. I agree.

J: Yeah.

F: Yeah. Awesome.

J: Um, so can you tell us about, um, um, your relationship status? How does that, um, how does it play a role in your life?

F: Yeah, so it has evolved. And so when I met Seth, I, uh, told him I want an open relationship. Like, the second day I met him, I had never had one, but, like, I was already introduced to the polyamorous world, and he was like, oh, yeah, you know, I'd be open to it. But, like, he very soon after, like, told me that, you know, he would be open to it, but that didn't mean that he wanted that, you know, like, um. So our kind of, like, middle ground for a long time was, okay, you can go to play parties, and in certain occasions, like, you can have sex, uh, with people in, like, festivals and, you know, kind of, like, sexual situations, but not really. Like, I couldn't really, like, go on a date with someone. Um, but that has been changing pretty recently. Um, and. Yeah, and I'm, like, really proud of how Seth has been handling the whole thing, because even though sometimes, like, I wanted the progress to be more than what it has been, there has always been progress. And he really kind of, like, you tries a little bit, and we experiment and we try it, and it's like, okay, does this feel good? Yeah, and things are fine, you know, but, um, we're, like, just exploring. But he's incredibly good at communicating, which is, like, very, very rare to find. Um, especially in guys. Um, at least in my experience in my previous partner is like, he's a very good communicator. And. Yeah, and it's good. I'm happy. Yeah, we're doing good.

S: Um, what you were saying before about, like, taking the baby steps and kind of, like, expecting it to just happen in one day, you know? Um, we had similar experiences where I had so many demands. Maybe not demands, more desires. Um, I had some desires. And, you know, J didn't really. You know, J wasn't really comfortable with those desires yet. But we really took it step by step. And I remember I used to, like, freak out and be like, you never let me do anything. But then he would say us, uh, look back from where we started into where we are now. Like, so much has changed, and, like, we've grown so much since then. So even though the progress might feel slow, that's just the way it has to be in order to feel comfortable in it. Like, it's going toa be a slow process.

J: You don't let me do something. And you used to not let Me do something. And we're not totally where I want to be, but we're somewhere in the middle. Two very different things.

S: Yeah, yeah, you'll get there.

J: One's restricting and one is progress oriented.

F: Yeah, definitely. For me, it's like people who tell me, like, you know, also, because our situation, it'is uh, so uncommon because he's monogamous and I'm not. People are like, wow, like, he's come so far, you know, like, oh, wow, he's not having sex with other people and he's letting you have sex with other people.

S: Wow.

F: And it's like. And even people who, you know, like, um, Mariah who has witnessed the whole process is like, oh, wow, he made that step, you know, And I'm like, but it's not enough. No. Now I'm learning to recognize it because now it's getting to a point in which, like, I feel like enough of my needs are being met. Because before it was a little frustrating because I was like, okay, some of it is being met, but it's kind of like a tease because it's like, oh, I can go to a play party and like, whatever, but then I cannot see that person again. It just felt, like, incomplete. Now it feels a lot more, like, complete. But it. I mean, we're like two years over two years into our relationship. And I mean, you guys are like over three years ago.

S: Something like that.

F: Yeah.

F: So it takes a while.

J: We're in a way different place than where we were when we started. Most of the podcast talks about our origin story. Um, but where we are now is in a very different, um, I would say state of mind. Thought. Yeah, More thought out. State of mind.

S: Yeah.

F: Yeah. It takes a lot of work and time and it's not always pretty. But if you are able to learn to communicate, then you get to, ah, a good point. And it sounds like you guys are in a good place. You know, I'm sure you still have work to do, still growing, but you are probably at a better place than when you were monogamous and, you know, having all these needs and desires that were maybe unmet, you know? Absolutely. Yeah, I think that that's maybe a good place to stop. But, uh, thank you so much for opening up and I feel like listeners will learn a lot from this conversation. I certainly enjoyed it a lot and also, like, learned a lot. So thank you so much.

S: Yeah, thank you.

J: Thank you for having us. It's really cool to be on a podcast.

S: Fun.

F: And, uh, that's it for this episode, I think and J did a great job passing on their learning. So thank you so much for that. And what I love about this episode is that it is kind of a reminder that the non-monogamous journey is not always easy. In fact, most likely it is going to be difficult to some degree, but it is often worth it. Again, not that non-monogamous for everyone. You might realize along the way that it isn't for you, and that's okay as well. But I think it's important to be honest about what you need and what your partner needs and perhaps to try to meet somewhere in the middle. So I hope that you learned from S & J as much as I did. And if you liked the episode, please don't forget to share it. We are on Instagram as Polycurious Podcast Uh, you can write to us there or to our email, uh, polycuriouspodcast@gmail.com I'd love to hear from you, so don't hesitate to reach out. Thank you so much for listening. Um, and I'll see you all next week.