Frankie: I literally came up to her and I was like, you are a trigger to me with this partner. Let's go on a date. I want to get to know you because whatever it is that you're triggering me is my own self reflection of something that I feel I'm not good enough for my partner.

Fernanda: Hi, everyone, this is Polycurious I am your host, Fernanda. And, um, today I am bringing you an an episode with my dear friend Frankie. Mariah and I had the chance to interview her last week, and the conversation was incredible. We had so much fun. So I am super excited for you guys to hear it. In this conversation, Frankie shared with us a particular experience that I feel we can all learn from. Basically, she felt triggered by a really good friend and business partner that her ex had. And, um, the way she approached the situation was that instead of blaming her partner or just keeping her feelings to herself, she actually decided to own up to her feelings and approach this person. And in this episode, you'll hear how that turned out and what she learned from that experience. We also talk about why non-monogamy makes sense for some people and not for others. The importance of communication and vulnerability, how relationships evolve, and even about what it's like to date couples. Frankie's openness is such an inspiration, so I can't wait for you guys to meet her.

So here's our interview with Frankie.

Fer: Welcome, Frankie. I'm so excited to have you. And I feel like we have so many interesting topics to talk about today. Frankie is a good friend from the community. It's one of those people that when you meet her, you are immediately captivated by her because she's so genuine and like, down to earth. And I can't wait for everyone to get to know her better.

Frankie: No, thanks, guys. That's.

Fer: Is there any way you want to introduce yourself?

Frankie: Um, I'm Frankie. Just another human being experimenting through life through non-traditional ways of being with humans. I guess Y. It is. Yeah.

Fer: That's great. Can you maybe tell us a bit more about your life outside the relationship world?

Frankie: Yeah. Uh, so I am a born New York, born and raised, uh, always in Brooklyn. Love it. Um, grew up in South Brooklyn, hung out there for a bit, didn't really expand much. Traveled enough, I think, to know that I love life outside of New York, but I think New York is always going to be home. I'm, um, a nurse, so that's always fascinating to be in the medical field, uh, and just see humans and be medically involved with humans, uh, inside a very different kind of context. But then outside being part of such a diverse community, that's also in a very different kind of context. But you, you're just with people constantly interacting. So it's always an engagement of some sort, always some kind of a conversation, always some kind of, um, learning experience about people and their past and their relationships and whatnot. Um, so that's pretty much it.

Fer: Yeah. That sounds all great. Yeah. Why don't you, like, take us back to, like, little Frankie, um, and tell us what your first encounter with non-monogamy was or the first moment in which you realize that maybe you were experiencing relationships in a different way than other people.

Frankie: Yeah. So, um, I was always a very curious person. I, um, know that I might have been shy or whatnot, but so I'm go going toa start from the beginning. So I grew up in a Russian Jewish immigrant household. Um, so ever since I was born, it was this understanding that I would always be in a Russian Jewish marriage. I would have kids, I'd have a home, um, always push for independence. So that's where nursing came into play. But when it came to relationships, there was never a question that I was going toa be with a Russian Jew and have kids. And that's the structure. Um, so it wasn't anything that I ever thought about of how I wanted my life to be. It was just how I was told my life was going to be. And living in just like a regular life with people who are very. Just regular. Uh, you never questioned anything outside of it. I, um, did date. Well, you have your high school crushes and stuff like that. I know that I wasually active at a young age. Um, how old were are you? So I lost my virgin when I was 15, but I started masturbating when I was like 5. You. I remember the first day when I was, uh, my parents would work a lot because they were immigrants. They didn't know how to take care of me. So I was raised by my grandparents, and my grandparents would pick me up from school, drop me off at home, and they would sit me and let me do my thing or whatever. Um, but I just remember my parents used to have like, the old cable box, and I would flip through the channels and then I would find the porn channel and I would just see this and I'd be like, oh, like, what is this going on? You know, and you just watch this and you don't understand what's following. And like, obviously I didn't have, like, boyfriends when I'm five. So I Have teddy bears and, like, other toys and stuff. So I would, like, replicate what I saw on TV and then realize, like, this feels good, so this can't be bad, but it feels wrong because your parents aren't telling you that this is something you dous. I just remember just, like, masturbating with my teddy bears when I was, like, really young, and I was like, oh, my God, this is how this starts. And I was like, but this is how it starts. And so I was always very curious. Always very curious. Um, and then, you know, you had boyfriends, whatever. Um, I remember being in. Was this high school, I think I had my first threesome. Um, and it was with a girl who was also very sexually active. Um, power to her. But her and her boyfriend were together, and she was very experimental. And they just asked me if I was okay to try this. And I wasus. Like I said, I was just very curious. It was like, for me, it was never saying no. It was always like, yeah, let me try this and see if I like it. And I feel like that's still the way I stand by today. Ye like, you want to introduce something to me? Cool. Let's try it and see if I like it. Um, and so I remember having my first threesome with them, and it was so funny. Cause we all got, like, really wasted because we just were uncomfortable and didn't know how to do this and how to navigate. And the guy got super uncomfortable. And so me and the girl just kind of, like, had our fun for a bit. And then he joined in, which was interesting. Cause then that's also kind of like my first girl and girl action. Um, and so I think that kind of, like, opened the door of, like, just the different possibilities that you could do and the ways you can engage with people. That isn't like, shaming. That isn't just, I guess, very limited, um, into what people expect you to be as a person when you're curious about things. Um, but because I was always very still brought up in a traditional household, it was still very much like, you have a boyfriend and that's who you have, and that's who you date. Um, so I did. And I had boyfriends and very monogamous. And it's not that I ever felt like something wasn't enough. It was just always, like, being aware that in the back of your mind, you know, you are still finding other people attractive, you know, And I don't think there's anything wrong with that. But, you know, some people are like, well, once you're in a relationship, you can't look at anybody else and you're like, that's not true. Why should all of a sudden all of the doors and windows be closed just because you moved into a house? Like, that's just not how that works. You know, people just come and go. Um, I was always a serial monogamist, so I'd always jump from one relationship to the other. And every relationship was like two and a half years. Like I was in the relationships, you.

Mariah: Know, I can definitely relate to that.

Frankie: Right? And it's lovely. It's lovely finding a person that you can connect and grow and like, ground yourself with. But that shouldn't take away from your ability to engage with other people. And I just didn't know what that meant. And I just didn't know what that looks like. And nobody teaches you that it's okay to love differently. Nobody teaches you that you just have to communicate, you know, like, if you're unhappy in one relationship, no, it doesn't necessarily mean you need to jump into another, but you're unhappy for a reason. Because I personally don't think that every single person can fulfill every single one of your wants and needs. It's just not possible. But then how do you make yourself happy? Right? And it's not being selfish. It's just about being able to enhance all of your categories, all of the subjects that you're interested in.

Um, so in most of my relationships when I was younger, all the monogamous ones, I always ended up cheating. You know, you know what you feel, and you know that you feel an attraction towards someone. You know, you feel a connection towards someone, you know, you want to engage with someone. But what does that look like when you're in a relationship? And so I would, you know, follow my present feelings at that time and I would engage with other people and it would feel great and it feel wonderful. But it was cheating, right? Because it was non consensual. Um, and so that would always lead to problems, I guess, because I would always be unhappy with my primary partnership because you don't realize the weight that you carry by lying, you know, and now I'm not saying here people should cheat and do any of those things, but it's just understanding that if you're enjoying somebody else, then maybe you should ask yourself, what does that look like? And what does that mean? And maybe talk to your partner, what does that look like and what does that mean? And so it was just a consistent thing for me to realize, like, there's a reason That I cheat. It's not because I enjoy hurting people. It's not that I enjoy lying. It's not that I enjoy holding ont to the weight and dealing with all of these little nuances about what it's like to constantly sneak out and do these things and lie about everyone. Like, you literally recreate a different realm that only you and this other person are part of. And so that's so disconnecting from so many things in life. Right. That you can't put everything into one reality for yourself.

M: And that can feel really isolating even for yourself. Like if you are living these different lives that you have to hide from each other. And like, I feel like in polyamory and non-monogamy it brings out a different version of you anytime you date someone new or be with someone new. And it's really cool to explore that. But if you kind of have to hide it as rather than a facet of yourself and instead something that you have to hide, that it's a really hard thing to do.

Frankie: I completely agree.

Fer: Yeah. But I have a question for you to both. I feel identified with what you guys are saying, but why do you think then monogamy works for some people if they also have partners who might not satisfy all of their needs? But what's the difference between people like us who decide to go after getting those needs fulfilled and people who maybe don't have those needs?

M: Well, I think it's some sort of acceptance in a way of understanding that you do have different needs and that they wouldn't be met and that's okay. And I think that the non-monogamous side of things allows you to expand past that rather than just accept it. But I think that people who can accept it and can fulfill that piece of them with other things, whether if it. If it's hobbies or different communities that they find themselves in, I think it doesn't have to be found in another relationship. I think that things that might be missing can be fulfilled in other ways.

Frankie: Yeah, yeah. I definitely think that to some people, I think it's also settling, you know, because like I said, nobody talks about being open, nobody talks about polyamory. Like, I feel like this is something that was always like underground for a bit and now it's resurfacing. But nobody like no religion talks about this, that it's an accepted way of being, you know, So I feel like in a lot of cases people just settle for that. This partner can only fulfill 75% of my wants and needs, and that's okay and they just deal with it. And I'm going toa assume that there's some level of unhappiness, but I would like to believe that some people just can't handle also being with multiple people. Like that's a lot.

Frankie: Yeah. Actually now when you mentioned settling with someone, I thought about it in the sense of not having to worry for different partners and having constantly different desires and meeting those desires by being with different people. It can be a lot more work than being monogamous. And honestly, I even question it myself sometimes say I think, oh my God, is this worth it? Because, uh, this is taking mental space, this is taking energy, this is taking navigating not only my relationship with my partner, but my relationship with other people. And then my relationship with my partner when it relates to other people, it becomes a lot of extra lifting that people who are in monogamous relationships don't have to do. So that's why some days I think maybe at some point I'll become monogamous then. But I just don't think that. But then I think, no, I mean, I would be monogagamous, but then every once in a while I would have my little escapade.

Frankie: Leg devble.

Fer: Yeah, I mean, I don't know. Uh, I've heard a lot of people saying that once you go non-monogamous it's really hard to go back. Although I know that for some people they might realize it doesn't work immediately and then just like go back.

Frankie: Good. I also think that some people enjoy dedicating their time, their life, their effort into one person. You know, like they want to just give their all to one and have that one give them all back, you know, And I think that's something special and that's beautiful. And if people can do that and it works and they're happy, by all means, grow together, do this, you know, like this to a certain degree. That's how, you know, mammals have evolved to a certain extent. Right. It's always like a partnership between A and B and then they procreate because at the end of the day that's kind of like where evolution takes us. And honestly, on the other hand, like being in open relationships, it's a lot of work, but it's also a lot of hard conversations and people don't wanna have those conversations. You know, like I now can look at myself and be like, like I stand by communication and transparency and fluidity being the three main components to make anything of this sort work. Like, but nobody wants to sit there and be like, hey, listen, I really love you and I want to be with you and dedicate my time to you, but I also love this other person. And now you have to deal with jealousy. You have to deal with comparisons. There's so many more emotional and mental things that go into that. And, um, people just don't want to have those conversations because they're not easy to have. Nobody wants to be vulnerable and be like, this makes me uncomfortable when you are with another person. But to a certain level, people who are able to have those conversations are also the ones who kind of evolve in their way of thinking, right? Because you need to bypass what is jealousy and dig into yourself of like, why am I jealous? What parts of this am I jealous? And because at the end of the day, it's a self reflection of you into this, you know, event that's happening that you're uncomfortable with. But when you realize, like, it all kind of comes down to, like, security, right? Like, one person can be with one person for seven years and they've married and they have kids and that's a secured situation and they're good, they don't need this. But all of a sudden, you have one person dating two people. You're no longer as secure as you think you are, because now you're just like, well, does he like that person more? Does she like what they do with this person more? Am I not good enough? Right? Like, all of these things just naturally arise and nobody wants to talk about that.

M: Uh, and everyone deals with it too.

Frankie: Everyone deals with it. Everyone does, but it's just understanding, right? Like, to what extent are you willing to accept this? To what extent are you willing to get through it? Talk to your partner about it? You know, everything is in middle ground. Everyone has to compromise to some extent. But these are conversations and these are heavy conversations. And I don't. Like, no one shows us how to do this. No one teaches us how to do this. This podcast shows us how to do. This, uh, frankly, teaches how to do it us. It's literally communication and being transparent. Like, I can't tell you how many times I have to tell somebody, like, hey, listen, I really like you, but I also want to engage with this other person. And it doesn't take away from you. It just adds to me, which in a way then adds to you. Because then I'm a happy person and I get all my things fulfilled, right? But then, um, it doesn't, it shouldn't stop anyone from doing anything. It's when people Start hiding things is when people start lying about things. That's when things get really messy. But, you know, it's just. It's about balance, I guess. Like.

M: Yeah.

Fer: And how do you also convince yourself of that idea of me being other person is not taking away from my relationship with this other person, but it's adding. Like, have you always thought that way? Or how do you convince yourself of that know?

Frankie: I think so. When I was in my monogamous relationships, I always thought that, well, I'm unhappy here, which is why I'm seeking something elsewhere. Right. So it was never that understanding where, like, I'm happy everywhere and so I can be a happier person to both partners. It was always like, well, there must be something missing here, which is what I'm seeking elsewhere. Right. It's always like, trying to find that 100% of me being fulfilled, but without conversation and communication and transparency. Like, then it was cheating. But it's like, you. If I'm a person who likes going to festivals and go to museums and then be a foodie, let's say, and then I'm with a partner who's like, you know, I really don't care about food and I really don't care about museums. I'll go to concerts with you. Cool. We can connect on that. But that doesn't necessarily mean that I need to force my other partner now to go, do, you know, go to restaurants and go to museums so you'll find somebody else who can engage with you there. But then, like, so now I'm happier because I get to go to these concerts, I get to go to these museums, and I get to go to restaurants. And then I come home, and at the end of the day, my happiness bucket is full. And it's like, if I'm happy, then I can then be present and happy with whichever partner I'm with at that time.

Fer: Let's go back to, like, your journey. I don't even know where we stopped. Um, in there, or maybe we jumped already. But, uh, maybe share some of the relationships that you've had on. Um, maybe what you've learned from them.

Frankie: Yeah. Um, it was definitely really interesting to be in my first open relationship, which I, um, think I had when I was in college. And it was for circumstances that I won't discuss. But essentially me and this person decided we will not be in a boyfriend girlfriend relationship, which was really funny because then we ended up spending all of our time together and pretty much acted like boyfriend and girlfriend anyway. But it was a title. We were Open. Um, and, you know, it was really interesting to be able to be given this free space of, you know, we come together to something and we can leave together to something, but while we're at an event, let's just hang and meet people and engage with other humans. And it was a really interesting concept to be given that freedom where I remember doing it for the first time and I almost felt like I was guilty and I did something wrong.

Fer: Yeah, that's. I kind of what I was trying to get at before, because at least for me, I feel like even though I know I'm doing things, uh, consensually, there's always this feeling of guilt that you're like, why do I feel guilty if both people know and there's nothing wrong' ained in us. Yeah. So that's kind of like what I was asking before. Like, how did you unlearn that guilt?

Frankie: You know, I think it was something about constantly having conversations with my partner, you know, where it was like, I'll engage with someone, and then, like, you know, I'd come back and be like, hey, I just made out with this person. Is that okay? And they'd be like, yeah, it's fine. You want to keep going? And I was like, I do. Is that okay? You know, like, you're just constantly asking for permission until you realize, like, it is okay. And if, you know, we're adults and if my partner, for whatever reason, would be like, you know what? I'm actually not okay. Today is not a good day for me. And so I would love for you to be with me rather than being open. You know, that just becomes conversations. And we should be adult. And this is, I guess this adds to, like, these are difficult conversations you have when you're in non traditional monogamous relationships. Is that you also, as a person, have to own up to your own feelings and be like, yes, we're open, yes, we're poly, yes, whatever. But you know what? I'm having a bad day today. And today I just want your attention, and I don't want you to give it to anybody else. And that's okay too. You know, you have to own up how you feel. And, like, I mean, I can. I can even say that, like, even in my most recent, um, partnership that I had, which was, I guess, the one that has really sealed the deal for me to understand that I don't do traditional relationships, you know, we were open. We were open in different ways. He wanted to be open and kind of hang out with a lot of people. And I realized I'm not a person to hang out with a lot of people. I like dedicating my time to particular individuals. And that made me question, like, am I poly for doing that? I'm still not sure. And we dabbled in poly for a little bit, and it didn't work out for other reasons. But, you know, and then it came across this thing where, like, yes, we were open and sure, jealousy comes around, which is fine. It's there and you discuss it and it's okay. But there's also triggers, right? Like, unidentifiable people. For whatever reason, one way or another, somehow your mind goes, this person of, uh, all of the people is a bigger problem than others, right? For whatever reason. And, like, that becomes a conversation, right? Like, I had a trigger with someone that my partner was hanging out with for whatever reason. Couldn't. It was like, a huge thing to dissect.

Fer: Yeah, yeah. But, uh, I was thinking about it with another couple for the podcast. You see, like, red flags in that person or you hanging out with that person is not good. It's not healthy.

M: Like, they could be a bad influence or something of that nature.

Frankie: See, that's the funny part, was that she was a trigger. Not because she was a bad influence, but she was a trigger because she was everything I wanted to be for my partner. But I wasn't, which is what I ended up finding out, which was interesting to begin with because I ended up confronting her and, like, and now we're great friends, which is such a beautiful thing. But, like, I literally came up to her and I was like, you're a trigger to me with this partner. Let's go on a date. I want to get to know you. Because whatever it is that you're triggering me is my own self reflection of something that I feel I'm not good enough, for whatever reason, for my partner. So let's break this down. Dude, that was like, us. Oh, my God.

Fer: Uh, how did you decide to take that step? Because now that you say it, I'm like, totally. If that happens to me, that's what I'm doing. But I know that if I were in this situation, I would never do it.

Frankie: It took time. It took time. Like, the way this person triggered me was just, like, so unhealthy. You know what I mean? And now we talk about jealousy, right? And it's like, I'm not a jealousy/ous person. I'm not a possessive person. I never was in any of my relationships. But for some reason, whatever it was. Life happened to be like, this is the person that's going to bother you. And this also ended up being a person that was like, you were saying that was like, um, you know, a red flag. But this person was so good for my partner as a person in their life. You know, they benefited so much from having this person. And it was like, um, an issue for me to be like, well, I want to have the relationship that you have with my partner. Right? And that's where my trigger started falling into place. So to me, it was like, okay, this person's going toa be in his life. This person's going to be in my life. I was like, I'm not.

Fer: But you were still seeing him.

Frankie: Yes, me and him were still together. Um, and so this person was going to be there. And I'm. I just don't want to deal with situations when you walk into an event or a space or whatever and you're just like, oh, this person is there. I have to, like, be a certain way. Like, I don't like having tension. I don'tn to bother myself and worry my brain with nonsense and stress and all. Like, I just don't need it in my life. So it was like having this moment. And it's not like she's a bad person, she's wonderful. That's the sad part of it is that, like, a trigger person is a wonderful human and I want toa be friends with her. But for whatever reason, life presented this, like, obstacle. So I was like, what else am I going toa do if not just approach this matter and just be honest and vulnerable about it? Right? Like, I'm human. And I just came up to her and I flat out told her this was funnyuse. I think this was on my birthday, which I invited her to. And I flat out told her. I was like, you trigger me when you are with my partner. The way you guys are friends, the way you guys communicate, the way you guys hang out. It triggers me because I think that I wish I had that relationship with my partner. And you're having it easily and I'm not. So I want to hang and I want to get to know you so that I can understand you better and accept you and so that internally I can just adjust my way of thinking and being like, this is the story you created, but this is who this person is. And I need to remove the story that I've created because it's not real. It doesn't exist. It's my brain creating this nonsense and accept this person for who she is and see what my partner sees in her and then be able to accept her and understand her and befriend her. And that's literally where this journey has taken us. Wow. And it's amazing'I'm genuinely. Of all the things, I'm genuinely impressed in this particular circumstance. Yeah.

M: Well, I think that that's what non-traditional relationships allow you to do is like, if you can be brave like that and really come on to things head on, where you are putting yourself in an uncomfortable situation at first. A lot of the times has such a beautiful outcome where you learn so much about yourself, about, you know, who you are with other people. And I think that I'm just really kudos for you to do that because that's really, really impressive.

But I'm curious too. Um, was there an immediate air after you guys met up and like, did it immediately help the issue or did it take some time after you guys had your date?

Frankie: It cleared up the air a little bit because there became this platform that her and I created. Right. This like circle of whatever is happening. You and I have open communication. And I felt like it was important for her to understand where I was coming from. Where like, you know, I react to you, but I'm not reacting to you intentionally. It's like, it's not that I don't like you. It's not that I think you're an asshole or whatever.

Fer: Yeah. You in a way were like, help me out with this.

Frankie: Literally, it. It's like, uh, my body is responding. I'm feeling something. Yeah. But I don't understand, but I don't feel me. Exactly. Exactly. And when, when her and I first had that date together, it cleared up the space. I think it provided a sense of understanding. But at the end of the day, right, it's not like I wasn't going like, please stop seeing my partner. No. I wanted them to be friends. I wanted them to grow and engage in whatever. It definitely was work. But I felt like it was easier on me that she knows. So maybe she's now more consciously aware of some of the behaviors or maybe she touches base with me or whatever it is. The thing is, me and my partner at that time, we started slowly going through conscious uncoupling as is. So we were essentially both deciding that we are going to part ways. Right. And we're still good friends and we're still lovers and it's wonderful. But we were digressing our relationship from partners to a different level. And I think that kind of Made things a little complicated where it's like, she was still my trigger. Right. Because they're still friends, even though me and him aren't together anymore?

M: Well, that adds even a layer of confusion on top of it.

Frankie: Yeah. So even though we had that conversation, it didn't ease things up. And it just like, you know, I just accepted certain things because, you know, when you're no longer in a partnership, there are certain things that even though might still bother you, you don't necessarily have like, the right to say or feel like you might not necessarily have the right to say or have difficulty with. Because I'm not dating him anymore. Right. So like, I can't tell him. You can't hang out with a bunch of women. I have no say in this anymore. I'm not your girlfriend.

Fer: Why did you make the decision of decoupling, as you said, instead of just transitioning from boyfriend and girlfriend to friends? Why did you. Were you like, okay, let's, you know, scale it down instead of just changing the dynamic.

Frankie: Um, it took us some time because him and I loved each other very much and we still do. Um, and it wasn't that we didn't want to be together, and it wasn't that we argued or we just hated each other. We just realized that we just want different things for our future. And it's like if one person can just really adjust what their future looks like, we would be together. But how can you ask someone to do that? Right. And so we consciously decided that we are going to de. Digress our relationship and not be partners for a future because we don't have a future to build together. But we still loved each other and we still physically enjoy each other, you know, and we still care for one another. So like, even the way we broke up was very non. Um, it took us a year to separate because it was a step by step process. It was a slow, very catered, very careful to make. We're very sensitive to each other's feelings and dynamics and stuff like that. And it took some time. Like it's now a year later and you. We still have moments where something might trigger another person. But in that time it just, it was complicated to digress our relationship and still have this person be a trigger, you know, because how do, how do you navigate that? There's no rulebook for this. I don't know how this works. Like, uh, what are you allowed to say? What are you not allowed to say? What are you allowed to feel? What are you not allowed to feel? I don't know, but so it was complicated. But you know, at the end of the day, it was, it actually wasn't until New Year's of this year, where, you know, time has now passed, it's been a year. Me and him are now in very different pages of our lives. Um, still love each other, you know, but different lives. And I think him and I having in this space allowed me and her to get closer because that dynamic just shifted a little bit somewhere within the last year. Slowly things just evolved, you know, and we're all in the same community, so we all still see each other, we all still hang out, you know, but it's actually really beautiful that it wasn't until New Year's where me and this partner went to an event together and we went as single people, you know, there was no expectation of us to be together. Of course there were conversations, of course there were like check ins considerations, of course, you know, But I feel like you would do that even if you were in open relationships or in poly relationships. Right? Like, you have to be considerate of the people you're involved with. Um, but yeah, but so it was wonderful that him and I now have this comfortable space. And then it even allowed her and I to engage and talk about it. And it's wonderfuluse her and I do talk about how these moments arise and that these triggers happen. And like, what does that mean? And what does that look like when we talk about jealousy? And it's amazing because now I feel like because of the dynamic that we had, her and I are now even closer than we were before because of it. Because you'able to bond over something that is so difficult and so complicated, but because we were able to figure it out and talk about it, it allows us to have a different level of connection. And so now her and I are like really good friends, which is wonderful.

M: That's awesome.

Frankie: Yeah, it is. It is.

Fer: Yeah. And all it took was, hey, this is a reality. Right? Because as you said before, like, what am I allowed to feel? Right? What are you allowed to feel? And it's just like you're allowed to feel anything.

Frankie: Exactly.

Fer: You can feel anything. You just need to accept it and then either have a conversation about it with yourself or have a conversation about it with the people around you and then work from there. And I think it's in that place of acceptance that like, it takes months. Um, it's hard, but that's where the growth happens.

Frankie: Exactly. And I think it's all about intention, you know, like everybody has an intention. For a person, whether you want this person to be your friend, your partner, your business partner. But if you have people with intention in your life. Right. Then why have these, like, tensions between each other? We're adults. We should be able to talk about it. And I think it's important for everybody to own up to how they feel. You're allowed to feel shitty, you're allowed to feel jealous. You're allowed to feel angry and sad and happy and, you know, and it's just another emotion that you just, uh, deal with. That's really what it is. Yeah.

M: And I think it's important, too, when you are feeling these things, that instead of making your partner wrong for them, it's really looking at yourself and why you're feeling that way.

Frankie: Yes.

M: And it's important to do that self work, to be able to have a strong and, um, you know, beautiful relationship and be able to manage all of these different relationships.

Frankie: It's also really interesting to be able to take a step back and, like, you know, to bring back to the example that I just had with, you know, my previous partner and our friend, where it was like, I wanted to be the person that she was in his life, but I couldn't be. Not because I'm not capable, but I'm just a different kind of person. I think differently. My way of acting is different. My logistics is different, you know, and it's funny because, like, what was the trigger was that, like. And I said this to both of them was I was like, he literally called for her into his life. There was a conversation, and he was like, I wish I had. And he described a particular kind of person, not a romantic partnership, but he was looking for someone to help him further, uh, advance his life and his business and whatever. And then she comes along and she's literally like, bullet point, exactly what he was looking for. And you take a step back and I'm like, as a romantic partner, yes, I'm triggered. I'm jealous because I want to be that person for him, but I can't be everything for him, just like he can't be everything for me, and she can't be everything for him, but she was what he needed for a particular moment.

Fer: At that moment, he was moving on.

Frankie: You know what I mean? And it's not that he was seeking a romantic partner. Like, in this particular case, it was like a business. And it was just it. She fit so perfectly into what he needed in his life.

Fer: So when you had that conversation, yeah, he wasn't talking about a romantic partner. He was just like talking about a business partner.

Frankie: Yes.

Fer: Okay.

Frankie: Like he needed this particular person in his life and she literally fit every single criteria. And I mean now they're best friends, which is amazing. But you know, like, it took a step back and it was like, how can I deny my partner this person that enters his life when it benefits him to such a degree? Right. Like it's wrong of me to not allow another person to advance in their life and benefit their life just because of m my feelings. Because my feelings just means that I need to dissect myself further.

M: Well, and that's unconditional love right there. You know, you being able to love someone so much, to really open up a side of you that allows someone that you feel has so much that you don't, you know, that that's really beautiful that you can see that and allow for that space.

Frankie: The only other thing that would make this better, if I can turn it into compersion, if I can feel. I mean now I'm working on it. Right. But if I didn't have to go through this whole process, it would have been really nice. But like, in order to like, I feel like that's, that's something that I would love to tap into is compersion is to be able to be happy for somebody else's happiness. Right.

M: Have you ever experienced that with any partners?

Frankie: I don't think I've had other partners that wanted other people. My previous partnership was essentially like the one that kind of really opened up my mind, opened up everything and for me to understand what nont tradditional relationships were like. And so. But I guess there were moments where he wanted other people, but he wanted to engage with them for brief periods of time. It was never like he wanted another relationship. So I knew and it was with this person.

Frankie: Um, not romantic at that time. It was a friendship that ended up working into like a business partnership. But it was still having that dynamic that they had. The closeness that they had was what triggered me. It's just the way they were friendsuse. Mhm. I wished I had that connection with him and I didn't Right. So then you just start looking at you so thing. Yeah, I think that we've all experienced or um, hopefully we've alld. No. Or hopefully I'm not the only one who's seem like your partner having an interaction with someone and then feeling jealousy basically. Obviously I'm not the only one. Um, at the end of the day, jealousy, it can be directed at that person like being like, oh, that girl is so hot and I'm ugly or whatever. But it can also be looking at your partner, interacting with that person and being like, I want that connection. I think that taps into, you know, being in a partnership where you feel insecure, right? Like, if you are secure and content and solid in your relationship, you don't really care what your partner does, because at the end of the day, you're like, it doesn't matter. I know that my partnership is solid, that nothing permeates this. We're good. But if you question that, right. If you're unsure, if you're on unstable grounds, then all of a sudden insecurities start arising. And so when you see that your partner'happy somewhere else, that starts becoming the troublesome situation.

Fer: So it was maybe not just the person, it was also the situation in which you were at that made you vulnerable to experience jealousy.

Frankie: Yeah. Ah, souse. When me and my previous partner got together to begin with, it's not that we were like, hey, let's be boyfriend and girlfriend. We met at a festival. It was awesome. We hung out. Next thing you know, we were hanging out often. Next thing you know, we have the talk and we're like, we're hanging out a lot. Like, are we a thing? Okay, I guess we're a thing. And then I guess, I guess to one thing that, uh, for my future self, I guess there would be like, if. If and when I get into another partnership, I think that it's really important to establish who you guys are together first, you know, to root yourself first and then engage in openness or whatever. Um, because that's just not what we did. And so the entire time where we're experimenting this, like, navigating through whatever relationship we were, whatever you want to call it, open poly, whatever, um, I just didn't feel secure in my relationship with him. And so it was difficult for me to be open at first because every other person he was with was like, why do you have to be with so many women? Like, am I not good enough?

M: 100%. I agree with that 100%. And it's like something I've been dealing with recently as well, of like, kind of going through that transition and like, dating a new partner and like, really just wanting to focus on us before focusing on anything else or. Cause it is a layer of complication and a lot of hard talks. And, um, you know, it's just, you know, if you're not in necessarily a great place, you want toa figure that out first. Yeah, I guess my question though, wait.

Fer: Before we move to that, can you maybe give some context for the listeners? Because last time they heard you were, uh, in a primary relationship, which was, uh, somewhat polyamorous, but you didn't have another partner. Uh, and now things have shifted. Right?

M: Yeah, so when we recorded the first episode of this podcast, it was a long time ago, but, wow, have things changed? And, um, yeah, so now my, um, primary partner at the time and I have broken up just recently, like the last two weeks. So it's still very fresh. Um, and we're still kind of living together, so we're figuring that whole situation out. And um, yeah, there's a lot of confusion around that. But, uh, you know, seven months ago I also started dating my other partner, um, or my primary partner now. And. Yeah, yeah, um, and that has. We're going through now this transition stage of understanding who we are now and restructuring around us being primary. So, um, yeah, and that's kind of what I was talking about when I'm saying focusing on us first, especially because we started off in such a interesting dynamic that now has completely like shifted 180 degrees. And, um, I'll get more into that on a later episode.

Frankie: But, uh, but then I have a question for you in that case. And I guess this was something that came up in conversation with me in the past, but it was like, you know, if you have a primary partner, right, and then you start having a secondary partner and then you lose your. Or not lose, but like, you know, you disengage with your primary partner. Does your secondary automatically become your primary?

M: I don't think it's an automatic thing, and I think we're even still kind of feeling that out and making sure that that's what we want. You know, I know it is what I want, and I believe it is what he wants as well. But it is this strange transition that, you know, we kind of need to figure out what this space that has now opened up actually looks like. And I don't think it is that as easy as a secondary always automatically becomes a primary. I actually have a friend, um, that kind of went through a similar situation. I won't speak to it too much, but when he went through his breakup with his primary partner, he had a secondary of three years and did not want to have that relationship become a primary interestinging. So, yeah, I think it really is the dynamic of the two people and what both people want. But as far as my new relationship or my current relationship, it is something that we know we do want we just gotta figure out how to get there now.

Frankie: Interesting. Wow.

M: Yeah.

Frankie: Wow. We got a lot to catch up on, don't we?

M: Yes, we do.

Frankie: Yeah. Um, more coming up. Upcoming episode.

M: Uh, season finale.

Fer: Yeah, precisely. So you guys wait for it.

M: What is your current structure now of what you're looking for or what you know you want now that you have kind of gone through all of this self exploration?

Frankie: Um, so I think now it's just like, it's a really interesting time where I'm really exploring what it's like to be single. Um, but in again, non traditional ways. Like I'm not currently dating or seeing one particular person. I um, am hanging out with couples now and I have a, ah, few lovers as well. Nobody that I'm consistently seeing. But it's also really interesting to engage and what it's like to engage with couples and other people, um, and what that looks like. Because I don't necessarily know if my future necessarily is monogamous. I don't know if my future is poly or open. I definitely know it's non traditional. Um, I think that it allows opportunities to present themselves and different kind of relationships to form. Um, I think that if all of a sudden the perfect person enters my life that they'll understand what comes with being with me and the people that I'm engaging with. But it also becomes a conversation of like, where do we find that balance? Right? Like are they okay with this? Are they not okay with this? Can we talk about it? Do we need to close up for a little bit to ground ourselves and root ourselves? Like everybody has to deal with some kind of a compromise and it's not a bad thing. It's just about finding people's comforts. Um, so if I find the perfect person and all of a sudden they fulfill all of my wants and needs and I don't need anybody else and I'm okay with it then. Sure. Or maybe we'll be okay with it for a bit and then we'll open up. You know, I don't know if I can answer you 100% of like this is what my future will look like. But I definitely know now that I've had this opportunities to engage with other people in different ways. Um, that I just know that it's not going to be traditional.

M: Yeah, yeah. And I think it's really cool that it can be fluid in that way of what works for you right now versus what worked for you in the past, what might work for you in the future, that all can look different. Just depending on who you're with and what you want at that time.

Frankie: Forever evolving. That's what it is. Yeah.

Fer: Cool. Um, I'm curious, how is it like to, um, date couples?

Frankie: Well, so we're not go going say dating ca becausee it's not dating them. They just invite me to hang out. Um, but it's really lovely. It's really lovely because you're given this opportunity to be invited right into something that's already established, like a beautiful dynamic that they've already created. And they believe that two people agree that they want you to hang out with them and join them in their dynamic, which is so wonderful and beautiful. And it's really special because it's almost like you just have a gang at all times and everybody hangs out and, well, I mean, everybody's enjoying each other, but it's always like, you know, like you pair off with someone on someone, and somebody gets like a day off, which is like. It's also really lovely because this is the first time where I'm engaging with women in such an extent. I've always been curious, or I guess, what do they call it? Ah, fluid, sexually fluid. Um, but it's really lovely to be able to engage and have romantic feelings for women, which is something very new for me. And women are just so different than men. They're just in so many ways. And the way they feel, they talk, they connect, it's just, it 's really special. And to be able to join that dynamic is like you literally instantly just get a girlfriend and then have a lover and then put they're together and that's your dynamic. And then what's even better is that if something goes down, you're like, okay, cool, you guys figure it out. I'm out, Deuces. And you just step out and people just figure that out. Um, so it's been really interesting, really interesting to be able to, you know, partake in couples.

Fer: Well, I think it's been such a wonderful conversation, uh, full of wisdom, uh, but I'LIKE to just end with the last question, which is, uh, what would you tell to a polycurious person?

Frankie: I think that what I would tell them is, you know, at the end of the day, like, if I were to teach my younger self something about what I've learned now is what I keep reiterating, which is like communication and transparency. Like, I feel like at the end of the day, those are the two big key components that allows for things to work. Um, you know, I know it's not easy. It's always hard conversations, but you grow and you evolve as a person, emotionally, mentally, psychologically. And so does the other person. But I feel like transparency also allows the other person to make a decision for themselves whether or not they want to engage with whatever you are bringing to the table. You. But then it becomes a conversation. And then once you both reach a level of understanding and you're both on the same page, it's just that much easier and funner to engage. Cause there's no restrictions. There's no boundaries. There's no hiding anything. Like, you're just being your honest selves and your truest selves, and then you're able to engage. And then, like, if anything comes up, just talk about it. It's okay to have feelings. It's okay to have triggers. It's okay to feel all the array of emotions, good or bad, and then you just communicate about it. Communication and transparency. Literally two things that I would just teach myself when I was younger.

Fer: Yeah. Yeah, it's hard to be transparent than to be honest and communicated. But, yeah, once you do it, then you can's. You can play as you. As you. Very well said. Well, Frankie, it's been so wonderful to have you. Um, and thank you so much for coming. Toy Curious.

M: You're so inspiring.

Frankie: Thank you.

Frankie: Thank you.

Fer: That's it for today's episode. I hope you guys learned from and enjoyed this conversation as much as Mariah and I did. And if so, please take a second to share with your friends or your loved ones. And if you want to let us know what you thought about this episode, you can write to us on Instagram @PolycuriousPodcast or send us an email polycuriouspodcast@gmail.com thank you guys for listening, and I'll see you all next week.