Dustin: She would make out with a guy and I would have that twinge of jealousy and it would be there a little bit and I'd notice and I'd get, uh, a little bit apprehensive. And then she would make out with a girl and there was no jealousy. In fact, it was kind of a turn on because it's another Man. Suddenly I'm threatened. But why? You know why? Because there are these societal things that we've grown up feeling. Seeing that I didn't react that way gave me more almost ammunition to realize, oh, no, like you can be okay with her being with other people, you know, and you have to get over the machismo mentality.

Fernanda: Hi, everyone, this is Polycurious. I am Fernanda, and in today's episode, I had a conversation with a wonderful couple. Their names are Ana Dustin. They have been together for eight years and married for four. And honestly, it was so beautiful to hear how well their polyamorous relationship works. Obviously they have had their challenges, but. I really could tell they really, really care for one another. And I hope that you learned from them just like I did. In this conversation, we talk about the way gender roles influenced non-monogamy monogamy, how they played a role in Dustin's jealousy, but also how they affect the way they each relate to other potential partners. We also talk about the importance of establishing a solid base on one's relationship before opening up. They share some of their challenges and give advice to other couples. But also, they actually turned the tables on me and asked me about the challenges in my relationship and my advice to polycurious people. Lastly, they tell us about a really fun project called Quarantine Crush, which they did during the pandemic. It is a dating show that you can watch on YouTube. You'll find it linked in the show notes if you want to check it out. I watched their last episode and honestly, I was laughing so hard. I think they did such a great job. And if you want to laugh for a bit and watch some sexy people, I could check it out. But before you do, listen to this episode so you get to know them a bit better. I hope you enjoy.

And here's my interview with Ana and Dustin. I'm here with two friends who, well, I already considered them my friends, but I guess they are just people that I frequented in events, in the community, at parties. I don't think Ana was around in the first encounters that I had with Dustin. So he's from Mexico, so am I. And he, as you'll very soon hear, doesn't have an accent and he has an American name. And I remember him making that comment, uh, yes, I'm from Mexico. But of these in Spanish, I'm from Mexico.

D: Uh, I mean I have a whole thing. I have a whole thing where it's like, my name is Dustin, I'm white. I also am presenting as white. I don't have like brown skin. Uh, and I have no discernible accent per. And so then I call myself the Undercover Mexican.

F: You totally are. Um, I remember hearing that and I was like, that's so awesome. Also because we were talking about how we didn't really know many Mexicans. Actually, you are the only Mexican I know in the non-monogamous community.

D: That's true.

F: Uh, and I think you were saying the same thing.

Ana: He's a rare breed.

F: Yeah, I mean, I think we all are. You probably are as well. What's your background?

A: I'm from the Dominican Republic.

D: O.

F: Okay.

A: So there's also not a lot of Dominicans in our community.

F: Yeah, I mean, actually a few maybe.

D: But I think there's more Dominicans than there are Mexicans.

F: Yeah, yeah, true. Yeah. But it's still rare. It's so rare. So yeah, maybe we can also talk about that. Um, but I'm glad to have some fellow Latinos here. I wish we could speak Spanish, but, um, listeners. I can't ask that much from listeners.

D: Subtitles on podcasts oh yeah, that would.

F: Be such a great invention. And then Ana uh, I've just heard so much about you. I mean, not in detail, but we just have friends in common. And then she very generously lent us, uh, hookah for this little event that we had. And then I came to drop it off and then I realized these two great people lived a six minute walk from me. Small world, which is great. So right now I'm at their lovely place. Well, I feel like I've given a very, um, clumsy introduction. So why don't you guys introduce yourselves?

D: Hi, I'm Dustin.

A: You did great. I'm Ana. And yeah, I'm from the Dominican Republic and uh, I work in event production and hospitality. Living in New York, I've been exposed to like so many different things and people and cultures and just like communities and uh, I love it here and I love the life that I have with my primary partner.

D: Husband.

A: My husband. Primary partner.

D: Yeah, know. And I was born and raised in Mexico. Uh, my mom is Mexican and my dad is American. Even though he also was a, ah, child of both cultures. So he's kind of a Mexican American. And so you. I was born there, grew up there t until I was about 14. Then I went to high school in California, did college in the States here as well. Um, and then moved to New York, and I've lived here ever since.

F: When did you meet? Basically, when did your pats collide?

A: Oh, so many years ago. And when we met, I also was very surprised about him being an undercover Medan. It was very like. I mean, he had to introduce himself to me a few times, and I was like, why? You used to speak Spanish. I was always shocked.

D: She was shocked that I spoke Spanish, like, three different times.

A: Yeah. And, you know, we met at a friend's house, which was. That is the way I envisioned meetings. Like, uh, that's how I like to meet people. Just through mutual connections, um, intimate settings. And, uh, it was a birthday party. And, um, he showed up from being. Do youn Tell His Story? I think it's a funny story. He met.

D: I was kind of flirting with this girl. He was flirting at the house of. Yes. And then it was starting to, like, wind down. And then this girl was hanging out with a few friends, and then she was like, hey, do you mind if we bring this guy? And, uh, I went to that party where I met Ana Uh, but we just met. Like, I went on to date that girl that I went to the party with for like a few months. Uh, and so then after we broke up, then even time after that, even like another six months after that.

A: Yeah. Well, actually, um, when we did start dating, he shows me a photo of me and him at an event where I was wearing a wedding dress and he was wearing a tux.

D: The theme of this party was weddings was weddings.

A: And it was one of my first big events, big parties that I went to in New York City. And it. Years before we met at that house. So it was a fun.

D: We had a picture of her and the fries. I wasn't wearing a tux. I was wearing a shirt.

F: I love that.

D: That looks like a tux.

F: Before anything ever happened that you have, it was like glimpse of what it could. Fate, what it could have been, or rather what it was going to be.

D: Yeah. The universe, the new universe knew.

A: Yeah. Like, I was. I mean, he was wearing a T shirt that had like, bow tie on it.

D: Bow tie pick picture.

A: Yeah. And, you know, he was like a random guy just taking pictures. And I was with a friend of mine, my girlfriend, and we just were there in our little wedding dresses with our bouquets, and he just came up to us and Just took a picture.

D: With us and that's something I would do. I was just starting to find these sorts of events and I was like, look, there's this whole underground world and there's like these parties. And uh, I used to love taking a little camera with me. This was before cell phone cameras got good enough for it. And I would use the camera a little bit to flirt.

A: It was a way he was flirting the whole time. Ladies.

D: It's true, it's true.

A: And it worked.

D: And so then, uh, we ended up with this picture, which is kind of magical now.

A: Yeah.

F: Oh, I love that. So, yeah. So, uh, at this point when you met, had you guys both had experiences with non-monogamy? Or maybe you can start by telling us individually how that process started.

D: I had gone to a pretty liberal college and so the concept of non-monogamy was not foreign to me, but actually doing it was. Uh, I maybe seen like one couple, uh, in college. There was, uh, two bisexual women and, uh, they would sometimes date a guy together. And everybody's like, oh my God.

F: Um, oh my God. What? Oh my God, you got the two women or oh my God, house candles?

D: No, like, oh my God, we want to be that unicorn guy.

A: Oh my God.

D: Ca. Because they were both pretty cute. Uh, and so that concept was there. My senior year I started dating what would be my long term college girlfriend. That lasted after college for a couple years. Um, and when we started dating, both of us kind of met and knew that we liked each other, but we were re, kind of in like flirtatious things with other people. And so we just started and we decided that like, we wanted to try to, like, why not try to do this open thing? Uh, and I remember going to a party in college and then watching her leave with somebody else. And that, that kind of affected me in a way that, uh, like jealousy.

F: Caus you were already dating kind of.

D: We had just kind of hooked up. Like it was just at the beginning of the relationship and then I saw her leave and there was this spike of jealousy there. And then we talked about it and we closed the relationship and that was it.

F: Uh, right. Well, that sounds like really like dipping your toes in the water.

D: And I did dip my toes in college, but then never again through post, uh, college New York time. But not necessarily by choice. I think I always had seen marriage and monogamy, uh, as something that I did not want to do. I always kind of knew like, that I was kind of a very sexual person who didn't think I would want to just have sex with just one person for the rest of my life. That's not something I've seen.

F: Yeah, um, I had one question for you because you mentioned that feeling of jealousy. You decided to stop the openness in that relationship because of that experience that you had. Then why did you still know that you still wanted it? You mentioned that it was sexual. Partly. But I was wondering, how did those two ideas match that seemed to bump.

D: Heads with each other. Yeah, there was a couple of things that led, uh, me there. One of it was this desire that I knew. I was like, I just don't think I only want to have sex with one person for the rest of my life. I think I've known that for a long time. And so then it became a little bit about being less selfish. If I have that desire, if I know I don't want that, then can I. Would it be fair to ask my partner to be like, hey, I want to be over there playing around it and doing everything? But you can't, you know, and so there's that side of it. But I also didn't come across, uh, partners who were open to it. So I was kind of like, monogamous. Not necessarily by choice. Just that opportunity was hard to find with people that I wanted to date.

F: So did you bring that up with your, uh, partners, like, the possibility of being non-monogamous? And they would say no? Is that how you realize that they weren't open to it?

D: For the most part, I don't think I even got to that. I just kind of could read it off of them. There were signs with most of them that it was like, no, this is.

F: Yeah, I mean, I feel like.

D: But maybe you're right. Maybe I should have just said, hey, what about this? Just to see for sure.

F: Maybe they would have said no, you.

D: Know, um, that as well. Within everybody's rights.

F: Yeah, of course. But, you know, you never communicated what you.

D: Exactly, exactly. And it would have been within my rights to ask, to just be like, hey, uh. And so, yeah, so I feel like, um, I had always had that desire inside of me and just never had an opportunity to grow. Um, part of the idea of, like, me wanting, uh, an open relationship and not thinking my partners would want one. I think at that time it had in my head also something to do with gender roles. I thought, like, well, most guys would want an open relationship, but most girls don't. Just as like a generalized thing. And that has been interesting to see that evolve and recognize that as being wrong as well. And Then when I kind of started to join this community a little bit and see more examples of it, of people actually having these relationships in real life, I was like, oh, it's possible it might not be that impossible dream. But I think then even still it stayed kind of a dream. And then when I started, uh, dating Ana uh, I think she had been in some non-monogamous relationships already. And so I, uh, saw, oh, wait, this could happen. But you know, no, I don't want to spoil. Before you give your side of the story.

A: Spoiler alert.

D: Spoiler alert. Took some navigating there and, uh, we didn't become open right away. I think, uh, we actually worked on our relationship and making sure that we were in a good place, that we were ready to be open. And then finally we opened it up and something very interesting happened to me, which was we were celebrating her birthday and it was kind of an intimate gathering with very close friends. And she, this game happened where it was like kind of a spin the bottle, spin off almost, but it was like everybody gets to kiss the birthday girl kind of thing. And, uh, she would make out with a guy and I would have that twinge of jealousy and it would be there a little bit and I'notice and I'd get, uh, a little bit apprehensive and then she would make out with a girl and there was no jealousy. In fact, it was kind of a turn on. And so I was like, what is going on here? This isn't just like, this isn't just jealousy that she's hooking up with somebody else. It's not that there's another, you know, there's something about it being a guy that affected me more. And so that allowed me to like, look a little bit more inward towards these gender roles that we have. And you know, coming from Mexico, a very machismo culture, uh, and just in general being quote unquote, a man in the American culture as well know, it's about you and what, like your things almost. And so, uh, that noticing that one elicited one reaction and another sex elicited the other reaction when they both should have either had jealousy or not made me realize there was something underlying going on, a societal stamp maybe where it was like, you want to be jealous only in these certain things, and that therefore this jealousy was less founded in my real feelings. It was kind of what I thought the societal construct wanted me to be in a certain way.

F: I think there's a lot of social norms that make couples feel, uh, and especially men feel like um, how do you say that? Likesculine emasculated because you feel like you must be a certain type of a man't.

D: If I can't please my woman, she has to go to another Man to get pleasure, then I'm not a Man. I'm not Man enough to please her. And I think it also like there's these like the archaic feelings of like female virginity and purity, you know, like, oh, you know, she's had a penis in her so now she's not pure. You can't marry her.

F: But there's a still that way when she was with a woman. Right?

D: That's what I'm saying. You. That's what I'm saying. So it's like because it's another Man, suddenly I'm threatened. But why? You know why? Because there are these societal things that we've grown up feeling like that are native to us, but I don't think they're native to humanity. They're just norms that society has put with the morals of our times. And so that seeing that I didn't react that way gave me more almost ammunition to realize, oh no, like you can be okay with her being with other people and you have to get over the machismo mentality. And then maybe you get to enjoy that fantasy that you've always had to be able to share a uh, relationship with someone other than your primary.

F: And so yeah, so it's a little bit of a trade off, I guess. Um, but before we continue getting into that, because I assume the everyone kisses the birthday girl party didn't happen immediately. I'm sure like at this point you had, had explored uh, with some sort of like non-monogamy. So why don't you tell us an about your journey.

A: So my journey, um, I always felt that I wanted to be able to explore and have that freedom. When I was back in Miami, I wasn't aware of it. Like I wasn't aware that I had this option. I had a boyfriend when I was there and we were together and I was fine with it. But I always knew, like I remember telling him clearly, I'm going to New York and before I settle I need to go and I need to venture and I need to try all the ice cream flavors before settling with one flavor. When I came to New York, there was just more exposure to other ways of um, approaching relationships. And I dated one person and he and I had spoken about being open and I was like, yeah, I can try this. This is something that I, I feel is Innate is a feeling that I've carried the thought of being with one person and only being restricted to one connection. And I just feel like there's so many beautiful things that you can learn from different people. And uh, especially, um, you have your friends and just this level of intimacy that you have with someone that you share yourself with that I feel is profound and is important. And you learn so much through that process. So for me, I didn't have difficulties with it. It'just been very organic. So I had two relationships like this and then, uh, I actually, oops, forgot one boyfriend. I had three connections. And then Dustin and I got together. So before I met him I kind of was like, okay, I am ready to actually meet someone that is able to, uh, reciprocate my feelings and be present and value me and have this connection where we're open and where we can just like, I don't know where it's healthy. Because my relationships, they weren't unhealthy, but I was always in a place where I felt like my needs weren't being met. Uh, so when we got together from the beginning, we just decided, okay, well we both know that at some point we would like to have the opportunity to open um, our relationship to some degree. We tried for the first year, um, monogamy m and just mainly for. To give us solidify uh, us as like.

D: And that's something that came from her. And I think that's something that was actually I have a lot of gratitude for because I think it was important not that was. That is important for our type of non-monogamy and that's feeling secure in the primary relationship and having that trust that we still want to be with each other the most kind.

A: Yeah. And I mean we didn t. We.

D: Had to build to that because I think I wanted. I knew you had been in a more open, ish type thing before and I think I wanted to dive into that right away. And you kind of expressed, well, you know what, maybe we should actually like.

F: Make sure this I did you learned that Ana.

A: Uh, I just felt like if we're gonna proceed here, I would like for us to be able to really get to know each other. Our boundaries, what our needs are, how we wanna just navigate. And also because I knew he was coming from a place where he had not experienced having a poly connection, I didn't want him to be in a situation where he jumped into it and still felt certain levels of, um, insecurities about it. It was super important for me to see him trust Me. Right. We waited a year, and I was like, I want you to have an experience first. Cause once you have your experience, then I'm gonna have my experience.

F: And did you make that decision?

A: I think it was because I knew, coming from, uh, a relationship where I was, uh, poly, that once you open that door, it, at least for me, it's, like, really hard to close. That's one thing. And the other thing was that I wanted him to really explore being with someone and connect in that way so that he can see and feel how that feels before seeing me with someone and feeling how that feels.

F: Right. So he could empathize with your experience and realize that that doesn't mean that you don't love him anymore.

A: Yeah. And it was more of, like a. A mental thing.

F: Someone else more or whatever.

A: Yeah. So I think we.

D: It also has helped. I think it helped me with the jealousy question because the base was strong, because I felt like, no, we actually know that we do love each other and that we do want to spend time with each other. I could let go easily. More easily. I, uh, could just be like, all right, she's going to go have this date with this other person.

F: Yeah. But, I mean, you also had this thing, which is totally natural of thinking, oh, I already had my date. It's okay for her to have her date because I already had mine. So it's an assurance. That's like an extra layer of security. That sounds like you wanted him to have because you had already had that experience, Ana Ah. Uh, so you knew what was up.

A: Yeah, it was more just a little bit of. Just mentally prepare him for a situation where he saw me connect with somebody else. Because I just felt like we both knew that we wanted to have, um, open a relationship, but just there's a way that when someone can see something and be triggered or feel so uncomfortable that they just shut down. I didn'tnn put a position where he had that experience before he experienced the joy and the connection and being able to have just, uh, someone that he was exploring with. I wanted him to have that experience first so that he can later on see me have that and hopefully understand that you can have that and have this. You can have both. I feel like, actually, the more we explore, the more we really value and appreciate what we have and are still come back to each other and are just even happier to be with each other. I have that feeling, like, appreciate appreciation.

D: What we have in this relationship, which is a magic that I had not found anywhere, uh, else, really.

A: Aw. It's just been so easy for us. Just organic for us. After we decided, okay, right now we're gonna open up and we're just gonna communicate clearly.

D: And, and that is m. And just kind of number one hallmark supporting structure of everything that. And trust. But communication, Man. Communicating your needs when you want something, communicating your needs when you're feeling something. Communicating, you know, just. And being able to traverse that honest communication, but also with empathy. So, you know, uh, always there's times where she might hang out with someone else and we don't go into nitty gritty details. And that's something that everybody does it differently and you have your own rules or whatever it is. But just being able to keep the communication kind but honest. And that, I think has been where we have succeeded the most.

A: Yeah.

F: Yeah. I feel identified in that way in the sense that my relationship has really worked. I mean, it's, I guess, in a way simpler because I am the only one who's non-monogamous in our relationship. But even though I identify and understand the struggles that other couples are going through, because I communicate so well with my partner, or rather he communicates so well with me, we both communicate great with one another and we are flexible and non judgmental. It just really works. And it's not like we haven't had our hiccups, but same here.

D: It hasn't been perfect sailing the whole time. We've had our moments, but that communication has been the bridge to get us deeper connected and through a lot of issues.

F: Yeah. So why don't you tell me about some of those challenges that you've encountered?

A: Yeah, tell us. What are those challenges? I'm like, it's been smooth sailing over here.

D: Well, one, uh, that comes up a lot that I like to say is there is, again, generalizations on male things, but there is a male, uh, fantasy of, oh, yeah, I want to be an open relationship because then I get to have my cake and eat it too. I can have a great primary relationship and then go sow my royal oats in every which way I want to. Um, and one of the very interesting things that it shouldn't come as a shock if you think about it for two seconds, is that it'snna be easier for a cute girl to get an extra partner than it is for a guy to get an extra partner. And so that's something that I've had to kind of, uh, navigate where it's like you wooing someone is hard enough already. Uh, you know, when you're on Tinder or Something women get a lot of matches, men don't get as many and then they have to kind of be up there and putting in the effort to try to get that match and get that date and get that connection. And so it became very apparent early on that it was going to be more work for me to get. It's like already wooing a girl is hard enough but then it's like oh and by the way, uh, I already got. You're going to be my side chick. That's not it. That's not we're going to present it. But thata.

A: That's how someone can see it where.

D: It's like what you want to be in a relationship with but you already have a relationship. And so that is something that has been harder to navigate. And now in aggregate over the years I think you have had more relationships outside are our couples than I have.

A: Yeah, I mean it depends on the couple. It depends on the two people involved. Just for us I would say it hasn't been balanced when it comes to who actually goes outside of our relationship, our connection and actually plays or meets people and connects in that way. I feel like for example with Dustin, he. He's more um, interested in more of casual interactions I would say whereas I full on other relationships I like to have someone that I can connect with, someone that I go to the movies with and have ice cream with and I like to build trust. I like to have the communication. Uh, and that was something that was kind of. I would say one of the hiccups like you said at the beginning was understanding that we both are wanting different things from being in uh. Ay. Secondary relations relationship. So that has been an interesting thing. And I also my relationships are longer. Like I just have like I'll date someone for three years or two years but then I'm not necessarily out dating a lot. And um, I feel like Dustin, he hasn't tested me so much in that way. Like I haven't had the experience of him fully dating someone and having for.

D: Like a long period of time.

F: So it sounds like uh, you are a little bit more poly Ana and Dustin is a little bit more open.

D: Or there you go with your categories. Yo.

F: The only reason why I'm saying that.

D: No, but I think you're right. I think you're right.

F: I mean I don't like to put people into categories. Um, but I do feel like it's important to have certain distinctions so we can understand a little better. Like yeah, you are a little bit more looking for investing in relationships and you are a little bit more looking for sexual encounters, would you say?

D: Yeah, but I'm not uh, just wild like whatever.

F: Yeah. It doesn't mean that you don't want to connect.

D: I do want to connect.

F: Yes, of course. But you don't want to invest three years of your life.

D: I would be happy with a friends with benefits. I'm not uh, against that at all. But there is a side where uh, again generalizations about gender roles where I find there's fewer women who would want to connect without more of the relationship side. Not to say that there's not any, but that's. I've found that to be true that it is. If I am going to try to connect with someone in that way, uh, I'm going toa have to put in effort. I'm going to have to think of some dates. I'm going to have to think of things to connect that aren't just purely sexual.

A: At one point he went on a date with someone and he comes back and I was like babe, how was it you. How did you. I was so happy that he was out there connecting with somebody and having a full on date because I had already had um, a lover for a while and he comes back and I think he might have told her I don't necessarily wanna whine and dinee you cause I have a wife at home. And I looked at him when I was like that line is notn't wear.

D: A good line Dustin.

A: No, that's not gonna work. You definitely are not gonna see her again.

D: Did I say that?

F: I don't remember.

A: Might. Why do I feel like you said that? I mean maybe you didn't.

D: No, I probably did.

A: Lessons learned early on because he's still trying to navigate how to be in a polyamorous relationship where he's able to go out and explore and just not wanting to necessarily invest so much of himself when he's already has a partner and a full time work and just so many other things going on that he wants to have these connections but he wants them to be a little bit more casual. And I'm always the one that's like no, you have to ask her in this way. There uh, have been times when I would give him tips and tricks and it's most just like well take her to a movie. I am very traditional in that way where I feel like the build up and just being able to. The courtship, the courtship is important for me and it's not like that with a lot of people. They're just like, no, um, I have my partner. I don't need to have this courtship situation where.

F: Yeah, I mean, I think that Dustin does have a point in the sense that it's easier when someone else does the courtship for you than when you have to do the courtship. Right. Cause you know, I feel identified. Like I get invited to dates and it's like, yeah, come over, Will. Or like, uh, let's go to a restaurant or let's do this or whateverever.

D: I'll cook you dinner.

F: Yeah, I mean, I also cook dinner a lot. Yeah. I don't know. Actually now I'm having doubts because I'm thinking back of like dates I've had in which, you know. Yeah, of course he has to show interest in meeting me and he might be the one inviting me, but I might be the one deciding what to do and I maybe the one cooking or whatever.

D: That's great. That's great.

F: But it is true that little, uh. There's a little bit more pressure or it's a little bit easier for girls to go on great dates without having to plan too much. But also it's just a matter of.

A: Personality, the person, the dynamic and the person that you're gonna see. And for me specifically is like a. Oh, uh, um, I'm. It becomes something of like every once in a while if I meet somebody, if I meet somebody that I feel there could be a connection of substance. There can be someone that I can actually get to know. Like an attraction and it's a whole. It's chemistry'so doesn't happen every so often. But when it does happen, it's usually something that will last, uh, ah, a longer time. This is something that I feel I like about the way that we interact. If I ve already have established intimacy with someone, there isn't, uh, like you have to tell me every time you see them, like every time that you connect with them in that way, I'll just be like, oh, I'm gonna go see this person. And he's like, okay, you. I'll be like, I'll be back by this time. Or I'll call you if I have to. If suddenly I'm staying later, you know. So he's been very patient with me because I feel like if, uh, he hasn't really tested me in a way where it's like, I actually would prefer you stay home tonight because I don't feel comfortable with it today.

D: Or you've been on like three dates.

A: This weekend or you've gone on three dates this.

D: Can I get a date?

A: Can I get a date? Like, we haven't had situations like, neither of us push it to that level. And we're really good at, uh, knowing where we're both at, like, acknowledging and reading. Our body language and our communication is very clear and very honest.

F: Yeah, I think that that's amazing. I do think that's very rare. I do think that a lot of people need to establish boundaries, uh, just to feel they have some sort of control over the situation when it can get messy. So I'm glad that you guys. And there's nothing wrong with having boundaries either. Yeah, I think, um, um, you know, if that's what works for you, that's amazing. But I think that you guys are lucky in the sense that you didn't really have to do that.

D: The reason why I think it has also worked is that I think actually we both are very open people in many ways, knowing, okay, the trust is there, the love is there. Like, you know, if you want, like, let's see how the night goes. We don't have to set boundaries because we trust each other to do. To not do anything super crazy or something. That's hurtful.

F: Right. You are open, but you also sounds like, um, considered for one another.

D: Uh, that's exactly right. There's a consideration and a kindness that we have towards this relationship where we cherish it enough to respect it in a way that lets us be more open.

F: And that's a hard balance to have because a lot of people, it's not like they don't want to be respectful to their partners, but it's just that they can't pe open and respectful. They can be letting go and also thinking about someone else. So I'm sure that that's also a muscle that you guys have developed somehow. Uh, but I think that it's, um. Yeah, I think that non-monogamy uh, definitely suits you.

D: Yeah. And I think it is because of the relationship that we both wanted it, but we were both willing to put in the work to make it work the way it did. There is one area where I had a surprising hiccup and nothing to do with the relationship. More to do with me, where I started dating someone, uh, and we had a few dates, and I was having a really good time, and. And I kind of had a crush. And I thought, like, this is amazing. Uh, and in the back of my mind, when we started seeing a few other people early on, there was a confidence that I had where it's like, I'm going To go out and play the field. And I think it's going to be great because I can't really get hurt because I have my primary, I have the love that I have, so if I get rejected, it's not going to feel so bad, you know. And that was a lesson I had to learn. When you have a crush on someone and you get rejected, even though you still have a primary, it still hurts.

F: Also a lesson that I had to learn. Y.

A: No, it hurts. Yeah.

D: And I think that slowed me down a little bit also in my future.

A: Relationships a lot actually. I feel like because of this fear of being hurt or being rejected, um, I feel like maybe that put you in a mindset where you're just more cautious about where you, when you're meeting somebody, you're just cautious about going after putting yourself out there.

D: And that's something that notice and we've.

A: Been working on because I have been in these longer term connections and relationships. So for me it's very important that I feel that he's also, uh, fulfilled and happy and exploring and having those opportunities as well, to whatever degree he's wanting to explore.

D: But it is a little harder for me. It's been harder. It's harder to put myself out there. I've always had that issue. I'm a little bit more shy. I'm very scared of rejection. And that was a moment that kind of hit that nerve a little bit. The sense of imbalance, even though it doesn't really matter really. But I think there maybe are feelings of guilt on your side and also feelings that you want to share that with me. You want me to go have what you.

A: Yeah. And it's all also hot. It's like really hot to see. At least for me to see him out there meeting women and connecting and feeling being wanted. That level of him feeling really good about himself, to me, that's like a beautiful feeling. And so there's that. That's like. I feel like one hiccup. I, um, have one personally, which I've had this come up with my connections, which is like if I'm seeing someone, they have a fear that, oh, you're married. Like, it does come up. And it's like I'm very, uh, clear from the beginning, like, this is what my situation is. They'll agree and they're like, okay, this is fine. I can actually, um. Uh, I would like to explore this. Inna. Try this out or. Yes, let's go. I wanna take him out on dates. And then I realize there's A shift in the other person where they are just, like, afraid, fear of giving too much because they feel like I'm not a primary to them. Um, I'm not gonna be able to reach a place where I'm gonna be in this level. And I feel like even using the word primary is hard for me now because I feel like there's just love. You know, there's love there that you have for others. For who the person you're with, for yourself, for your friends, for your family. There's this, like, share love that I want to share for the other person. It becomes harder for them to understand that concept and feel like they're important to me. So that's been something I've had to learn the hard way. And we're also pretty good when we talk about someone else. We're very good at being like, well, how do you feel about them? Like, for me, it's very important to speak to Dustin and get his input on how he feels about someone that I'm, um, that I'm feeling, I'm connecting to or I want to get to know better. And I've never felt in any way like, he's ever expressed to me, like, no, you can't see that person. It's always like, I trust that you will make the correct judgment, and I trust that you will explore it and that it'not going to be something that's going to become toxic to us.

D: Uh, that is big. And that does come from a place of knowing her and knowing the type of person she is with relationships that I do trust that if you had enough game to make her like you, you're probably a person of quality. And it, uh, hasn't failed this yet. Mostly, yeah.

F: That's great. Because I do feel like some guys, or just, you know, maybe any gender can be like, to their other partner when they meet someone. Oh, you know, I, uh, don't know about that person, but they might just be, like, projecting their own insecurities on that. So I'm glad that that's not the case with you guys and that you are truly just looking out for her and, like, trusting her judgment as well, but also being like, okay, uh, I see a red flag if there is one.

A: Ye.

F: Has he ever raised a red flag? Like, oh, know I trust your judgment, but, you know, I, I get weird vibes or whatever.

A: He has had the, like, but only after the fact. He was like, I prefer you not spend time with them because they're not treating you the way that you should be treated yeah.

F: So it's not about his jealousy, it's about his concern of your well being.

D: She wasn't getting what she wanted from the relationship, and I could kind of see that towards the end, but he.

A: Was still supporting me through it, which is something really rare and precious.

F: I asked this to every guest. What would you tell to a polycurious person?

D: I mean, it's kind of like real estate. Location, location, location. Communication. Communication. Communication. You know, I think that is kind of the keystone upon which it's all built. Uh, and then, you know, and kindness. Kindness.

A: Being kind. When you speak to each other, we're also very present when we're with each other. Like, something as simple as, like, if I am speaking to him and if he's on his phone or I'm on my phone, we always stop what we're doing and we, like, acknowledge each. Acknowledge each other. So just little things like that, acknowledging each other, our, uh, feelings, where we're at. I don'll know if I'm like, oh, should I go on a date on this day? Uh, I think about it, I'm like, well, that day Dustin has a long work day. He's gonna come home, and I should be that. I wanna be there for himcious. It's not like this, like me putting in a situation where he has to be like, oh, do you think you can stay home? Because I'm not feeling, you know, because I'm gonna be tired and I wanna see you. I've never had to put him in that situation because I'm already thinking, being considerate of where he's at.

F: That's a great tip. Yeah.

A: Just consideration and communication and respect.

D: Respect. But I think also there is this foundation of knowing ourselves and valuing the relationship. Like, I think a lot of polyamory comes in so many different flavors and so many people do it for so many different reasons that you can have your own set of rules or whatever, but at the base, ours has worked because we both want to be in the relationship and we both want to be kind to each other and protect the relationship. If you're starting to use polyamory as a way to ultimately break up or as a way to, uh, get something that you're not going to get from the relationship and therefore create a wedge in the relationship through that. There's these pitfalls that I think that a lot of people can fall into. Uh, where the jealousy rings up or the anger or where you start doing shitty things and it's because you don't want to be in the relationship.

A: You know, I've heard of people that are open and still find ways to cheat on each other. And I'm just like, well, what?

D: What is the point of that?

A: Yeah, it's something that is not something that I've ever experienced. I'm also very. If I'm seeing someone, I would want to see them twice a week. That's normally what I prefer. Uh, but Dustin is very accepting of that. And I feel like I don't really necessarily feel restricted in any way. Like, I feel like we give each other space. We also are able to, like, hey, I was wrong about this, or, hey, I actually kind of messed up here. Or acknowledging that we're not perfect and understanding that, like, we're all just trying our best. Right. Cause we care for each other and we want the best for each other.

D: And we can get back to that sentiment because the love is really there and the honesty and trust is really there. Polyamory works best when the relationship is strong.

F: Yeah, definitely. Being considered to the other person. It's very important. I feel like that's something that I've learned in my relationship because it's not like I don't consider or love my partner, but sometimes I get so caught up in my thinking about my plans or even just worrying whether he's going to say yes or no to my plan or whatever, and I don't even think. Stop for a second and think of his point of view and like, okay, where is he at? Okay, he's tired from work. Or I just saw one person last week and it's been too short of a time. Or just kind of remind yourself, okay, put yourself shoes in their shoes. I think that's very important. And that's also something that I've learned. And again, it's not because I don't care about my partner. And I'm sure people who forget to consider their partners, it is not necessarily because they don't love them. It's just like, you have to put, uh. Yourself.

D: Empathy.

F: Yeah. You have to be empathetic with their experience and just think how you would react in their situation. So I think that's a great one, too.

D: I feel like, obviously there's a podcast. We are being interviewed, but I would love to turn the tables on you on two things. What are some of the hiccups you've had in your polyamory adventures? And what is some advice that you'd give from what you have learned?

F: Oh, wow. Okay. Um, some of the hiccups that we've encountered so the first one was that since we met, I knew that I wanted an open relationship. I had never had one, but, like, I was already in the community, and I had had these conversations, which now I'm making a podcast about. Um, so I told him straight up, like, okay, I want to be in an open relationship. But he has a different background. He grew up very Christian, and he just wasn't really interested, but he didn't really want to restrict me. But we did have this period at the beginning in which we weren't fully open, and the rule was that I could go to play parties, but that was it. And I found that very unfulfilling because I like to connect with people, even if it's like friends with benefits. To become friends, you need to see them more than once at a play party. Right. So I think I was a little frustrated by that dynamic because I wasn't fully getting what I wanted. Even though he was giving up summ something by letting me do thatad when.

D: He was, which was probably a big step for him.

F: It was a big step for him, and it was hard for him. And I do very much appreciate that he did it. Uh, he was just not ready at that time to take that step. So it took us a little while for it to change into being more of a situation in which now I don't have to go to a play party seeing who's there, because it's my one and last chance. You like? Now it's like I have a lot more freedom. So that was a little bit of a hiccup. Um, I mean, I guess more personally that I felt like we weren't advancing fast enough, but we've always advanced. Like, that was the beginning. Then he started being like, okay, you can see other people, but it cannot really be romantic. You cannot stay over. He still wanted it to be in the sexual box. Now things have changed. And, um, yeah, I think that there was a little hiccup. I would sometimes ask for permission, uh, uh, to see people or to do things at moments that weren't right. Uh, so that's why I thought being conscientious. Yeah, yeah. Kind of like taking into consideration. So there was a point in which he was moving from San Francisco to New York to live with me. Because when we met, we met at Burning Man. He lived in San Francisco, I lived in New York.

D: Long.

F: We were a long distance for, like, a little less than a year. So, yeah, he was moving, and he was, like, packing and spending all this money on shipping his furniture and taking this huge road trip to come to New York to see me. And he had already allowed me to. I don't remember what it was, Go to a play party or something. And then I asked permission to do something else when it was the totally wrong moment. And I've had a few moments like that in which I've just asked for something that in the moment, to me, doesn't seem crazy. But looking back to it, I'm just like, how could I have been so unsensitive and kind of not seeing where they. The other person was at? So that was also, uh, something that I had to learn. Yeah. And I think that's pretty much it. I mean, we're still figuring it out. He's fine with me going and seeing people and having friends with benefits and stuff. But we still have rules now, the new rule, but it changes all the time. It's like every two weeks I can do that, which I think is a good rule. And then when that happens, it does take him a little bit to kind of like, shake off that weirdness of the fact that I was just with someone else. So, like, we might not have sex immediately when I come back home, you know, but that's okay, you know, because it's one day, uh, in two weeks. But honestly, he's been super accommodating, um, and we've communicated really well, so I'm very happy about that. And now I feel in a much more comfortable place because now I can have my friends with benefits, which is what I really wanted. Um, and also, I think that he's comfortable with that and he appreciates his solo time when I'm away. Uh, I think that's a big part of why he's open and willing to do that.

D: Um, yeah, once you move in together, that is something that can. Sometimes you realize, like, oh, yeah, I don't have that much time alone when I used to have that all the time.

F: Yeah, yeah, exactly. We both are very independent and appreciate our independence and time alone. So I think that that gives us someing breathing space. Um, and. Yeah. Did I answer? Oh, what advice would I giveave to polycurious person? Yeah, I think that you first have to figure out what works for you, and that's a process. And you have to remember that works for you is not what's gonna work for your partner necessarily. And that's okay. It doesn't have to be equal, but you have to kind of figure out that first. Bring it up in the best way possible, considering your other partner at the right Time at the right time. And then if your partner is not open to what you want, then you have to decide, is this a compromise that I'm willing to make to be with this person? And if the answer is yes, then that's okay. And continue with that person. And that's great. I mean, we all have to do compromises. So figure out what you are willing to compromise for that person and what you're not. Um, yeah.

A: Meeting in the middle, a place where you're both comfortable.

F: Yeah. Yeah. So I guess that would be my advice. Yeah. And I mean, I think that we've talked about so many great things, and this might be a little bit off topic, but I really wanted to ask you about, uh, this fun project that you did that it's kind of related somehow to, um, at least to relationships.

D: Uh, dating in the modern world.

F: Yeah. So in the COVID modern world. Exactly. So they put out, uh, a YouTube show called Quarantine Crush. And why don't you tell us a little bit about it? Just like the quick overview.

D: Yeah. So, yeah, it's basically like a dating show. It's a zoom, um, dating show. Yeah. And so we host it, and, you know, we find a crush, uh, and then we find these contenders who are vying for a zoom date with the crush. And so then we ask a few questions, uh, to get the compatibility as well. And we have a couple challenges, and then the crush will pick someone to go on a zoom date with.

A: And yeah, it came about because we were just. Just this experience that we've all have had of being quarantined and having. And lacking connection in many ways, especially for a lot of people that have been isolated. So we came up with this concept.

F: Yeah.

A: And it's been fun. And, uh, we did like four episodes. And it's silly and it's fun and it's sexy. A way to spread joy and love and also silliness and lightness.

F: Yeah. And it's, uh, a 20 minute, uh, long episodes. Four episodes on YouTube. Quarantine Crush.

Fer: Rightine.

D: Crush. Y Quarantine Crush Episode 04 is probably our pies de resistanceeah.

F: Right, right.

A: Season finale.

F: Amazing. Well, you guys, I honestly was holding myself back from asking more questions. Caus I know we've run out over time. Over.

D: Um, because I got more questions for you too. It's like, okay, no, we're already gone.

F: Okay, okay, we'll continue off the mic.

A: Maybe I'll meet us at the after part.

F: Maybe I'll open a, um, Patreon or something. We will can pay for extra or not. Or maybe we do some of their record.

A: You can hear the rest in our OnlyFans account.

F: Exactly. Let's monetize everything. Um, yeah. But I really, really do appreciate the time and the honesty and openness. And I appreciate you guys. Thank you so much for coming.

A: Thank you for reaching out.

D: Yeah. Thank you for having us.

F: That's all from Ana and Dustin.

Fer: If you enjoyed this episode, it would mean so much to me if you shared it with a friend or if you just let us know what you thought about it. As always, our Instagram is @PolycuriousPodcast podcast and our Gmail is polycuriouspodcast@gmail.com Uh.comt. thank you so much for listening and I'll catch you all next week.