Brian: [00:00:00] You can map out how you think you're gonna feel about something.

Catherine: Mm-hmm.

Brian: Like conceptually. But then when it happens, the chemistry of your body makes you feel how you actually are really gonna feel. And you just have to rationalize with that. Like obviously I was okay with it. I literally blessed it right.

And encouraged it, but then like I was like, oh this, this makes me feel a certain way.

Fer: Hi everyone. Welcome to Polycurious. I am Fer relationship coach and host of this podcast, and today I have Brian and Catherine with me. They're such a great couple with such a fascinating dynamic. Basically they have been together for about a decade now. They have a five-year-old daughter and about a year ago, they were looking for a woman to have a thereon and they went on field, the dating app, and Catherine ended up finding a woman that was not interested in a thereon and started developing a relationship and a partnership with her.[00:01:00] 

That woman also has a husband, also has a daughter about the same age, and the six of them, basically the two couples and the daughters have created a little community in a way. There's so much that I loved about this episode, but one of the things that really stuck with me is that they really have approached the situation with a lot of checking in a lot of conversations, but not really having too many expectations and being open to the relationships developing in whatever way makes more sense.

So Catherine has actually had threesomes with her girlfriend and her girlfriend's husband. With Brian's consent, of course, and even though Catherine's girlfriend has made clear that she doesn't want to have sex with Brian, he's found a way to be involved in the dynamic and to feel of that energy. And Catherine and her girlfriend actually find it really arousing.

They do have a central relationship [00:02:00] where there's a little bit of kissing, massages, things like that. He listens to them while they're having sex, and with their full consent, of course, masturbates to it. He takes care of their sex toys. He writes them little notes. Now, when Catherine had sex with her girlfriend and her girlfriend's husband, Brian could have been like, I also want a threesome.

Why are you all having sex and not me? And get jealous and defensive and insecure around that. And instead, he's just embraced the aspects in which he. Still enjoys that relationship, not in a sexual way, but in a kinky way. And I think that that is really something that we can all learn from. And of course it has come with some difficulties.

One of the things that we talk about today is how sometimes you think you're going to feel one way. And in his case, he not only agreed to Catherine [00:03:00] having sex with the other couple, but he even encouraged it. But that doesn't mean that there's not going to be feelings that come after that actually happens.

Interestingly though, the first time it happened, Ryan was even in the house. So I love how they have found creative ways to have everyone involved in this dynamic. So I really hope that they can be an inspiration to you to not come with certain expectations or hard boundaries when you go into non-monogamous dynamics, but to be open to filling it out, to continue to communicate about how each person is feeling, and find a way to make it work for everyone.

And if you're curious to hear more about how they're dealing with this situation with their 5-year-old daughter, you can subscribe to my Patreon where I have a little clip that didn't make it into this larger conversation about how. Their daughter actually really loves Catherine's girlfriend and how even [00:04:00] though obviously they haven't had a full-on conversation with her about it, they're not planning to hide what's going on.

And they're obviously being very sensitive around the whole thing and being careful, but also wanting to show her daughter that there's nothing wrong with what they're doing. One of the things we also talked about is how important it is to listen and to ask questions when your partner is feeling insecure.

So there's a lot of talk about reassurance and while, yes, I do think that it's important to remind your partner that you love them, that you're not going to leave them. I think sometimes we don't realize that our partners don't just want to feel reassured. They also want to feel understood. And so getting really curious instead of getting defensive or jumping straight to reassurance can be great asking.

What is it exactly that makes you feel that way? If I did this differently, do you think that would make a difference? Tell me more about your experience. I think sometimes we miss that. We get to a [00:05:00] lot of the really important lessons at the end, so make sure to listen all the way through. This is actually going to be the last episode before I take a little summer break.

Don't you worry. It won't be like in the past where my breaks were about a year long. This time around, it's just going to be a few weeks and I'll be back with more episodes. In the meantime, remember you can reach out to me at Polycurious podcast@gmail.com. If you're interested in learning more about my coaching services, you can also reach out to me at Polycurious Podcast on Instagram or book a free exploratory call by following the link in the episode description.

All of the resources we mentioned today will be there too. I hope that you all have a wonderful summer and looking forward to reconnecting when I'm back. Here is my interview with Catherine. I'm Brian Catherine. I'm Brian. Welcome to Polycurious. I'm very, very excited to have this [00:06:00] conversation. You have such a unique, and in some ways also I'm sure, relatable story, and I think you've gone about it in a great way, so thank you so much for being here.

Catherine: Yeah, happy to be here.

Brian: Yeah, for sure. Thanks for having us.

Fer: Yeah, of course. Well, we'll definitely get into your whole story, but just so the listeners know a little bit about who you are and kind of what your relationship structure is at this moment. Can you give us a quick intro?

Brian: Yeah, for sure. Married,

Catherine: mm-hmm.

Married for almost eight years.

Brian: Almost eight years. Been together for 10 years. Mm-hmm. 10 and a half. We've got a 5-year-old daughter.

Catherine: We've always kind of talked about going outside of our marriage and it um, didn't really happen until the first time was maybe three years ago.

Brian: Yeah.

Catherine: We had always talked about, you know, sleeping with another woman with a third.

[00:07:00] It was like a friend of a friend and it. So fun and so great and we loved it.

Fer: So that friend of a friend was at a party or something, or what was

Catherine: the situation? Yeah, yeah, we were an event and literally she just, I like said something to my friend and she's like, oh, this girl might want to, and just happened and it was very fun.

Brian: Really great night.

Catherine: Yeah.

Fer: And Catherine, do you have any experience with women before that? Did you know that you were attracted to them?

Catherine: I always have. I slept with one other woman prior to that and it kind of just happened. Brian was there, but sleeping and um,

Brian: sleeping too heavy.

Catherine: Yeah, it just kind of happened.

I knew that he was okay with me exploring that side of myself, and we had talked about doing it together and then as soon as he woke up, like he opened his eyes and I was like, this is what happened last night. And. [00:08:00] It was fine. He was great about it and yeah. Thought

Brian: I missed that.

Catherine: Yeah. Um, that was maybe like four years prior to Brian and I sleeping with somebody else.

Yeah, it was a little for the first time. So there was like a big gap.

Brian: Yeah. To kind of finish up the answer to the question, I think kind of conceptually we heard about the idea of like ethical or consensual non-monogamy from a different podcast a while back, and we kind of talked about that and kind of established like this, I don't know, not a rule, but just like an agreement between the two of us.

Like if she went out of town for a girls' trip or if I went out of town for a boys' trip, like it was just live your life and have fun.

Catherine: I, a couple times I went outta town, I slept with men, Brian hadn't, but then Brian and I hooked up with a different friend and so we were kind of like. Getting closer and I feel [00:09:00] like every time that I personally had had an experience, like I felt good and comfortable about it and I wanted to explore more.

Brian: I think over the course of our relationship, we've always just really been super open and honest with each other about what we want and I think we've always kind of had that going for our communication is really was good to begin with. And then once we started going down this path, it's like outta control.

Good. Probably, if anything, we over communicate, so yeah. Just gotta talk about it.

Fer: Yeah. Nice. I remember one of the things that. Stayed with me when we had the pre-interview was that you were saying, you know, before we opened up after work, we would just, you know, watch TV and it would be kind of this monotonous mm-hmm.

Routine and now it's like we turn the TV off and we're having like deep conversations and seems like Yeah, you have enjoyed that aspect, which comes with [00:10:00] non-monogamy of having to have deep conversations and sometimes they're about non-monogamy. But then you kind of get into that practice and then you start having deep conversations about other things.

You all of a sudden become more open.

Brian: Yeah.

Fer: In general

Brian: it's true. Yeah. For sure. Mm-hmm.

Fer: So how did you go from that to meeting the woman that you are seeing now? I guess you would call her your partner at this point?

Catherine: Yeah, I would. Yeah. Yeah. We've um, been seeing each other for almost seven months. We were listening to Sex with Emily, that podcast.

And she was talking about Field on there, and I had gone on there a while back and it was just like, it was weird. I, nothing was really happening. And

Fer: yeah. And just for listeners, I mean, I'm pretty sure most listeners probably know about Field, but just in case they don't know, it's like a dating app. I don't know if you guys know this, but it wa it used to be called Trend [00:11:00] there.

'cause it, it was like specifically for threesomes.

Catherine: Okay.

Fer: Uh, I did it. So now it's more for like non-monogamous people. Yeah. Yeah. It's a very glitchy app, but Yeah. Can help with, with finding

Catherine: Yeah.

Fer: Community. If you're in a place where,

Catherine: yeah.

Fer: Where that isn't very accessible, but also it is. Full of weirdos at the same time.

Catherine: So many weirdos.

Brian: A lot of weirdos, and God bless them.

Catherine: Yeah. I

Fer: mean, yeah. No judgment. Yeah. But

Catherine: yeah, and so I went on there just kind of on my own and I like, we had like briefly talked about it, but not really. I just did it and I just connected with another woman and she was not looking for threesomes, she's bisexual and just kind of like exploring that.

Married, has a daughter as well and we just like messaged each other and it was like, just like spark immediately. We just like [00:12:00] nonstop back and forth chatting. We exchanged phone numbers and then we decided to meet for dinner and it was just like amazing time. You know, I, I don't know, we like in the beginning like just thought maybe it'd be casual and um, but like quickly realized that like we had a really deep connection and it.

It wasn't going to be casual.

Fer: And Brian, how was that for you? Is that something that you had talked about before? Because one thing is for Catherine to God, trying to find someone to have threesomes with, with with the three of you. Like with you. Yeah. Another thing is for her to be like, oh actually I found a romantic partner and you're not invited.

Brian: Yeah, you're out. Uh, it was, uh, interesting to say the least, I think. 'cause it all did kind of happen pretty quickly, but like, I don't know. Since we know each other so well, like I could see it, you know, I hate to sound cliche, but like I could see it in our eyes like something was happening and it was okay.[00:13:00] 

'cause she was super happy. As it turns out, I turned out to be pretty happy with it too. 'cause her girlfriend's like my best friend now. So we've got a really great metamore relationship and it all just kind of happened way different than we ever expected. Like, like she said, like

Catherine: mm-hmm.

Brian: I think. When you get into it.

Right. Married, we both have jobs. We got a kid like who's got the time and then well, it turns out we've got the time. She's got the time. So, uh, I think when it's right and it works, it's, it's interesting, I think the dynamic of how they are very similar to us, right? Like a husband and wife with a child, just like we are not miserable with each other, you know, on, on good, good ground.

Just like we were just like looking for something different. Especially for both the, both the girls looking for other girls. Mm-hmm. That just all kind of made sense.

Catherine: Yeah.

Fer: And how was that conversation of. If you ever [00:14:00] had it of, okay, I actually have feelings for this person, or this might be more meaningful.

Like, was that something gathering that you were like nervous around disclosing or did you feel like Brian was going to be okay with it? Uh,

Catherine: I feel like Brian was going to be okay with it. I mean, he's like, he and I truly are best friends and like he said, he could see it in me. And I mean definitely like treading lightly for a lot of things.

I think that both she and I were both treading lightly with our spouses because, you know, we would, is it okay if we do this? Is it okay if we have dinner on this night? Like, I know it's been two nights a week, you know, so there was like a lot of that in the beginning. And I think even now still, like, you know, we struggle with, you know, sometimes we'll be together like.

One day it'll be just her and I then like the next day, the four, the the four of us will do something and [00:15:00] then the next day, like all six of us will be together. Or then it'll be like her and I and the girls. Right? So like, sometimes it ends up being a lot and I think even still we get like a little nervous, like, is this too much?

But it's just really, I feel like it's like just ever growing and ever like we're like, we're just always talking about it.

Brian: Yeah.

Catherine: But yes, yes. To answer your question, yes, I was, um, I was nervous 'cause, and also like I wasn't, I was not looking for that at all. But I think like what we, we talk about and I talk about with her, and Brian talks about it with her and I know, you know, her and her husband talk about it.

It's just like really an abundance of love has been just like such a beautiful thing. So we're just like riding it out, seeing what happens.

Brian: Yeah. And I think early on, like when you started to realize that you were. Developing some real feelings for like, that made us talk about it. Like, Hey, this isn't what we intended, but this is what's happening.

Yeah. How are we gonna deal with it? [00:16:00] Um, and it was a, it was a learning process, I think for, you know, for all four of us really, but for us, and that's really when the communication started heavy. Like, what are we gonna do? How are we gonna do it? How does it look? How does it work? And yeah.

Catherine: I remember having beers with one of my best friends and I was telling her about it.

And it was before, um, she and I had ever met in person before our first dinner together. And she was like, oh my God, aren't you worried you're gonna fall in love with her? And I was like, no, of course not. Like, no, it's fun. You know, so

Brian: they're in love with each other.

Fer: Yeah, that happens. I mean, I feel identified.

I am in love right now, and that's not something that I wanted as it was something that I was trying to avoid, but it's not something that you can control. And I feel like it's hard to explore non-monogamy for a long time.

Catherine: Mm-hmm.

Fer: Without slipping into polyamory, [00:17:00] because after a few years you're meant to find someone that sparks some feelings and often mm-hmm.

That's not like a choice. Yeah. But you know, a lot of people are afraid of that. A lot of people are like, what if they fall in love with someone else and they think, oh, that means that they're going to leave me. Mm-hmm. And, and Brian, you're just like giggling, like being like, oh, she's in love. I love that she's in love.

It's so nice. You know, like, so that's also why I wanted to, I mean, not that it has all been easy. Yeah. And I do want to hear Brian, like, what, what part of that process was difficult for you, but that's also why I wanted to talk to you, to show people that. It's not like if your partner falls in love with someone else, they're going to leave you.

Like what if they become your friend? Yeah. What if you integrate them in your life? And I love that you have created like a family molecule community, you know, that we, that you probably didn't have before and went from being, you [00:18:00] know, the typical, I mean, I don't know you, you can tell me, but, but I, I imagine the typical like, isolated family unit to then having this more, more of a community, but yeah.

Um, but yeah. Brian, maybe tell me a little bit about, you know, from, in this process, what has been challenging, if anything? Because you make it sound like, like it's been great.

Brian: Yeah, well, my journal would,

Fer: which has,

Brian: I think, you know, a lot of typical things, right? Like when it first started and they had. A lot of new relationship energy.

I felt a little insecure, like, oh, well I'm out, I'm out the window here now I'm an old bit at this point. And I say that a little bit, a little bit jokingly, but a little bit serious too, right? Because when somebody finds somebody else, it, I think it's only natural. And I'm, I asked her at one time point blank, like, what are you getting from her that you're not getting from me?

Which I think was a really pivotal conversation we had. [00:19:00] 'cause it wasn't what she wasn't getting from me, it was just in addition to what she was getting from me. Um, which really kind of reframes everything. Like it's not because it's different, although I'm not a girl. So it's way different. But

Catherine: yeah.

Brian: Uh, just a different kind of love and an additional love.

And like, like she said earlier, kind of just looking at an abundance of love in our lives is a really positive thing. And as long as we kind of. Disregard the constructs of modern society and their problems with it. Uh, it's a pretty great thing. And I candidly, I think we were both kind of ignorant about the whole concept of it all and I kind of took to learning a lot about it, right?

Like started really diving into a lot of podcasts and listen to more than two the book, which I think is amazing. Anybody who I think is delving into polyamory or ethical [00:20:00] non-monogamy should definitely read or listen to more than two. 'cause there's so much good stuff in there. Um, just things that we never thought about that you think about and then you talk about and understand how to work through 'em.

And like, one of the things that I think has helped, uh, our relationship along is like, through all this, I've really just embraced becoming like super honest with who I am and what I want and how I wanna act and be. Uh, with Catherine and with the world, I guess maybe a little bit too, which is a little kinky and a little fun and

Catherine: Yeah.

Brian: You know, so we've, we've, we've got some things going on that are, that are satisfying me just fine. And we can leave it at that for now.

Fer: Okay. Because I have some questions about that.

Brian: Yeah, of course. Yeah. Of course we can dig in it. Um, we can dig into it.

Fer: Yeah. Like, 'cause I'm very interested in this idea of bringing back [00:21:00] the sexual energy that maybe your partner is having with other people into your own relationship.

I think in this case you are like also part of that whole dynamic.

Brian: Mm-hmm.

Fer: But you are also fitting of that sexual energy. So how do you do that? Because I think for people who are like, again, oh no, my partner's falling in love with someone else. Oh my, my partner's having amazing sex with someone else.

You know? How about you are like. We have sex after they have sex or, or, I'm, I'm somewhat involved. Yeah. Right. Like there's ways to play with it. So you don't see that as a threat. And then, and you can be like, okay, actually this is a good thing that sexual energy is gonna come back. So what are some things, Ryan, that you have done to

Brian: Yeah, for sure

Fer: to, to benefit from the dynamic?

Brian: Well, I forced myself right into it a lot of times. 'cause I'll like, uh, early on in their relationship I would make 'em playlists and things like that, or help, uh, set the mood or leave 'em little notes, which [00:22:00] actually was really great for me and our relationship overall, uh, because it kind of forced me to get back to being romantic and creative.

Yeah.

Catherine: Yeah. Creative.

Brian: Creative. Uh, I think you're for sure you're always romantic. I'm always romantic. Yeah.

Catherine: Yeah. Just like putting

Brian: effort.

Catherine: Yeah.

Brian: Effort. Effort. Um, right. Because you know, after being married for a lot of years, sometimes the effort unintentionally just. Goes away, the relationship goes on cruise control.

And this definitely took an off cruise control and swerved it into another lane.

Catherine: Mm-hmm.

Brian: And then I just started to embrace like, who I was.

Catherine: Brian really, really loves like my pleasure. He really loves like acts of service. Like he really loves to pamper and do all of these things. And she really enjoys those acts of service.

Like that's something that she is like, whoa, this is so nice. Yeah. And like she's comfortable enough in herself. And I think the relationship that she and Brian have [00:23:00] built, like she was very clear on the night that they met. She's like, I'm not gonna fuck you. You know, like, and Brian's like, fine. He's like, I would fuck you, but we don't, you know, like they have like that very, um, direct.

And so I think like that was established immediately. And she like, loves and trusts Brian. So like. I feel like she doesn't feel like he's gonna, he's on a creep. Like she doesn't feel like he's in front of fuck her every time she's around.

Fer: Yeah.

Catherine: So I think she's able to like, relax and enjoy those things that he likes doing.

And so he, you know, he is involved. It's just in a different way.

Fer: Mm-hmm. So like massages sounds like, or things like that, or the notes, you said you write notes for them, like for of them?

Brian: Yeah. Yeah.

Catherine: Yeah. And if she's like, stayed the night over here and somehow we don't, there's no kids here in the morning or, you know, there's not a couple times where she stayed over and our daughter's at school and, you know, she and I are here and Brian's going to work and he'll bring us up [00:24:00] like a tray with like a thermos whole coffee and like water and you know, all of these things.

And it's great.

Brian: Yeah. It's great for them. It's great for me. Like I'm a submissive lover and I like to do it and I like to provide service like that and I'm happy to do it and it makes me happy to do it. And then when I see them smiling about it, that makes me really happy. I also usually take care of and maintain their sex toys.

Oh,

Fer: nice.

Brian: Real turn on for me. Uh,

Catherine: yeah, yeah, yeah. Massage sometimes too. Yeah. Massages and just, yeah, just like taking care of us. Like the first night that she stayed here, that he was going to like come back here, he like left us a really nice bottle of wine and like decant it and like left us cute little note and chocolates.

And when I saw it I was like, whoa, this is, she got freak out about this. Like, is this a little weird? [00:25:00] Um, but like, a

Brian: little bit. But

Catherine: she loved it. Yeah. And we were, it was just like really fun and we just like sat there and drank the wine and, you know, she sent it to her husband and he was like, wow, that's cool.

You know, he wasn't like, what a weirdo.

Brian: Yeah.

Catherine: You know, like, so we all just, yeah, it all just really works.

Brian: Then I think additionally to that, early on when it was all happening, we were, I, I don't, it wasn't an insecurity, but I really needed like, space and time with Catherine. Mm-hmm. Like after the fact, you know, the aftercare

Catherine: mm-hmm.

Brian: For lack of a,

Catherine: like a physical close,

Brian: a physical closeness. I would be like, listen, if you're with her Thursday, we have to be together on Friday all day. And now it's not quite like that. Yeah. I mean, I still want it, but it's,

Catherine: yeah.

Brian: I, my security has grown so much more, you know, in the last six or seven months or however long it's been, that again, there's, I don't fear that she's just gonna ditch me tomorrow.

Catherine: Well, I also, um, she and I talk about this a lot [00:26:00] as well. Like, I think this is the beauty of, uh, being bisexual too. We both truly want to be with men and women. Like, it's just really, you know, I think again, like coming back to like kind of just being on the same plane, like in the same arena, right? Like we.

So I think like, the fear of that Yeah. Of, of me. Like up and leaving. Right. You know what I mean? I dunno, I dunno if that's relevant, but I, it feels relevant to me.

Fer: Her husband who's mm-hmm. Who's a man. Yeah. It, it like creates kind. And you have your husband who's a man, you're both bisexual.

Catherine: Yeah.

Fer: It creates like a safe container.

Like if she was a lesbian without a husband, then that thread of she might steal my, my, my wife or whatever. Yeah.

Catherine: Or maybe if she was bisexual without a partner.

Brian: I think, yeah. Just not,

Catherine: you know,

Brian: not like our dynamic is so similar that I think it really created a security blanket for us. Like, don't ruin your marriage.

Don't screw up your kids. [00:27:00] Check. Check. Okay. We're on the same page. Those are two really good pages to be on. Yeah.

Catherine: I think it just really helps to sustain, you know, because it is challenging. It's not without its challenges. All relationships are not without the challenges, but then when you're like adding levels and different dynamics.

I think it helps our case world. We talk about like hierarchy a lot, you know, 'cause a lot of the things that she and Brian read and so talk about like how that's not, you know, like hierarchy's not great, but I think that like we've all agreed, like we are married with babies, like we're, well I am committed to her wholeheartedly.

Like, not saying that I'm not, but um, Brian is, you know, he's like my partner. He's the one that I've chosen to be with forever for the rest of my life. And then like with her, it's just, obviously she's a woman, so it's a completely different experience. But like it.

Fer: Yeah. That's really [00:28:00] awesome. I want to hear how that first meeting went, like both between Brian and her and you and her husband.

Catherine: I met her husband like on a whim. We were at a bar near her house and we met for happy hour and she had some of her neighbors coming over to like have a glass of wine in the evening. She's like, why don't you just come? And I ended up going and I met her husband just like briefly. So we just kinda like met, Hey, how are you?

When she and Brian met, we had plans to go out with Brian's cousin and her husband who we're very close with like, they know about us. Yeah. Like

Brian: we're very open with them, super open and honest relationship with

Catherine: them. Um, and they're incredibly supportive. Yeah. And wonderful people. And I had told her, I was like, why don't you just come meet us?

You can meet Brian that night and. We went to a local bar by our house and the night was really good. They were [00:29:00] playing keynote together and having fun and they like, just like laid it all. There was like no small talk with them.

Brian: We just got right into it. It was really fun. And I think her and I are both like that.

Like I have to give a credit to another friend. She's like, I'm not, I don't bullshit with anybody anymore. I go deep. I go deep with you right off the bat and if you don't like it too bad. So I've started to embrace that philosophy a little bit and uh, she really took to it and we really took to each other and it was really great when the four of us first met.

But yeah, we went out to a really nice, really cool spot for dinner. You know, it was pretty casual and pretty cool. And he and I, I think got along pretty well right off the get go. Like we both listened to techno music, so we kind of just related on that a little bit. Both of our girls are into each other.

We related on that a little bit.

Catherine: He and Brian like kind of. Had the like, okay, we're doing this.

Brian: Yeah, this is happening.

Catherine: You know, just so great. Um, but it was [00:30:00] good. And then, you know, we haven't spent a ton of time. They came over with their daughter and spent the night, like came over and watch a football game and like all just spent the night.

It was just like, it wasn't like a sex thing, it was just like a, a

Brian: hangout

Catherine: hangout thing. Right.

Brian: Real literal like kitchen table. Yeah. A couple times we've done that. Where? Over here overnight. Over there. We went out and like got pizza and wine. The kids were there.

Catherine: Yeah.

Brian: Just hung out for several hours.

Fer: Nice.

So it sounds like meeting each other, like east, everyone's. Yeah, insecurities and fears and it was just like, oh, you know, this can actually work.

Catherine: I think we were both kind of hesitant too, 'cause we both had kind of said, both couples were like, you know, we already have a lot of friends. Like, we don't really need to,

Brian: don't need anybody new

Catherine: in our lives.

Had new friends, but then like we found like our girls really enjoy each other. And um, you know, there's been times like where just she and her daughter have come to the night. He recently had [00:31:00] some stuff going on and to help them out, Brian and I picked up their daughter from school and like brought her to our house overnight.

And

Brian: yeah.

Catherine: You know, there's been times where our daughter has spent the night over at their house, like Brian and I went out and it's just, again, it's kind of like that communal thing, you know, like

Fer: Yeah. Support system.

Catherine: Yeah. And it's really nice.

Fer: That's awesome. So their daughter is also around the same age, sounds like

Brian: she's just a little bit younger.

Yeah, little bit younger, a little bit younger. But still fun and they get along.

Fer: That's awesome. How, uh, do sleepovers work? Not with the daughters, but you know, if, well,

Catherine: even with that it's kind of different every time. We were just talking about this yesterday, 'cause she came out on the boat with us and spent the night here, but our daughter wasn't home.

Like last night. She and I slept in our bed. Brian slept downstairs. There's been times where like she and I sleep up here, our daughter's home and Brian has slept downstairs or she [00:32:00] slept downstairs and Brian and I sleep up here. Yeah. And the girls sleep in

Brian: kinda always changes.

Catherine: Yeah,

Brian: I think probably early on that was maybe one of the jokes.

Right. Where's Brian go? Like, oh, Brian sleeps on the couch. Yeah. But it's a nice couch. It's okay.

Fer: Yeah. And going back to the topic of like how you also benefit from that energy, I think you had mentioned to me that, you know, you realize that also just like listening to them.

Brian: Oh yeah.

Fer: You know, having their fun also turned you on, right?

Yeah. So again, like where some could have been like, this woman comes here and is sleeping in my bed with my wife, you know, you're like, oh, like

Brian: he's here sleeping in my bed with my wife and it's going.

Fer: Yeah.

Catherine: And her husband is, he also enjoys, like if we're sleeping together at their house, you know what I mean?

Like, which helps our cause. Yeah. You know, like it wouldn't be happening, I don't think, if they both weren't. Like into it, you [00:33:00] know?

Fer: Yeah, I love that. And you are probably then also more into it, you're like, of

Catherine: course. Yeah.

Fer: Okay. Like we can be loud and Yeah. Like, you know that they're listening and then that turns you on more.

Brian: There's a lot of turning on happening around these parts, which is really nice. Yeah.

Fer: That's wonderful. And I know you said that you don't have a sexual, uh, Brian, you don't have a sexual relationship with her, but do you kiss or, or what's the extent of your, um, you know, interaction? I think

Brian: that's, I think that's changing a little bit every day.

Um, we are physical with each other. Um, like I touch her, I grab her butt, I rub her feet, I kiss her, but not like, we don't put in heavy makeout sessions or anything. There's definitely something going on.

Catherine: Yeah. There's like a,

Brian: uh, they

Catherine: just have like their own

thing.

Brian: We have our own sexual energy, their own thing Yeah.

Going on. That is really fun, I think, for both of us. So

Catherine: yeah,

Brian: she's a little bit of a tease [00:34:00] with me and I really like that part of it too. So that helps. So we, yeah. We've got our own little fun dynamic that satisfies me in plenty of different ways.

Fer: I love that. And you know, something I really like about the way that you're going about it is that it doesn't sound to me like you are like, okay, this is how we're doing things and everyone behave under these boundaries.

Yeah, of course. You talk about everything and, and I love your, your advice of like, just talk everything out. Like nothing's a surprise.

Catherine: Yeah.

Fer: Uh, but at the same time, you are open to. Just filling things out, just being like, we don't need to decide. Oh, Brian cannot touch her. Or, you know, it's like, oh, a massage feels good, but, uh, but that, and like maybe a, an innocent kiss and like teasing feels good, but not full on sex.

Catherine: Yeah.

Fer: And that's okay. And I think that in our [00:35:00] society, we're often not used to that concept. And that's something that I've personally really enjoyed too, where I have friends where we kiss, we just make out, but we don't have sex. Yeah. Or, you know, we have very intimate, a very intimate relationship where like we can do massages or like be pretty much naked in front of each each other and, and that doesn't necessarily have to lead to sex.

And I think that there's a lot of like playful playfulness and, and beauty that comes out from like, being in those like gray, gray areas and just being playful, you know? Right.

Brian: Yeah. And I think that, uh, for me personally anyways, with her and with her, just like. Again, my comfort and my sexuality of what I like and what turns me on.

Like I had never been so just forthright and honest with her. And then with you too, of course. And it's just really liberating to be that honest, like, oh, you don't wanna have sex with me? Great. You wanna tease me a little bit? [00:36:00] Yeah. Can I jerk off while I'm thinking about you? Yeah. Oh, you're gonna like that too.

Okay. This is great. Like in just having that level of honesty, which I had never really had in life mean I did with you a little bit. Of course. But

Catherine: I'd say more than, a little

Brian: bit. More than a little bit. But it was over a 10 year span instead of a 10 day span, you know? That's true. That's right. Where I was like, here, this is what I like, this what I like, this is what I like.

Catherine: She's like, cool.

Brian: She's like more and more and more. Yeah. And so that was really fun. And then I think it just,

Catherine: yeah, it's

Brian: working. So

Catherine: she's very, you know, non-judgmental and like really hears people and which is like a really beautiful thing. So. Been really nice. Yeah. Obviously for me, but for Brian as well.

Fer: Yeah. And I think what's important too is that it's also talked about, you know, you're like, okay, is it okay for me to get turned on by by you guys having sex and masturbating while you guys are having sex? Is that okay with you? And then they're like, yeah, great. Like, that turns us on more, but I don't wanna [00:37:00] have sex with you.

You know, like, that's, that's all, that's all great. And what was her experience? Was she also pretty new to everything?

Catherine: Her experience was very new. Um, she had never been with a woman before. Um, she had had some experiences but never like really, um, dove into that and had not like, really been outside of her marriage in like a truly sexual way.

So, yeah, her husband was super supportive and kind of encouraged her to start seeking it out. It was more than what he had thought it was going to be as well. There were some struggles with that. You know, really just like between the two of them and with me too. Like she and Brian have like such this great rapport, this great relationship.

Spent many nights like just like talking and deep diving about things. First of all, that's not her husband's personality. Also, we just like really never connected that way. I did like feel warmth from him, like kind of as we went along. Then we kind of started talking about sleeping together, [00:38:00] my girlfriend and I, and you know, she had always said like, I'm not into threesome.

She's like, it's just too many people. Like, I don't, I don't wanna do that. And I was like, you should maybe reconsider it. It's really fun. Um, and then we, we just started talking about it more and I had like, told her a while before that like I would sleep with her and her husband and that Brian was okay with it.

And we just talked it more and more and then. Ended up happening and it was very fun. And Brian, it, we like all went out. It was like the first time that the four of us like spent the whole day out together, you know, drinking and flopping around and just like both had overnight sitters and you know, like anybody that has kids understands that like the energy of having an overnight sitters

Brian: real free for all.

Catherine: It's different, you know, spring kind of like leading up to it. I was kind of telling her, I was like, listen, like I'm into it. I would love to sleep with you guys. I was like, [00:39:00] but I need to know that. Like he wants to fuck me. Like I need to know that it's, I'm not just like fulfilling a fantasy or, you know, because it's available.

Like it has to be that like he wants it. From me. Otherwise, like I'm just, I'm not like I, I, I love having a threesome, but like, I don't want it that bad. Do you know what I mean?

Fer: Yeah. You don't want him to do it just because you are a woman that's available. Right. You want, you want him to do it because it's you.

Catherine: Right. Yeah. And he was like very hesitant to do it because he really loves what she and I have together and he didn't want to be a part of like, ruining anything or, you know, taking it to place that we couldn't come back from. Like, he like had to be like really sure that she was sure and that I was Sure.

Um, which, like while we don't talk a lot, like I said, like I did feel that from him and like I feel that [00:40:00] warmth from him, it's just in a different way than, um, the way that she and Brian do. And he is very much somebody that like, it just takes him time to process. So that day that we were all going out, she, like, we had kind of talked about it happening, and I was like, yeah, if it happens, you know, I don't know.

And then she told me when she got to our house, she's like, he's in. I was like, okay, cool. And we were out and we had like, had some drinks, we had lunch, and then we were at a bar and we were like all playing darts and just like, really like connecting and having fun. And she and I went outside and Brian talked to him, and then Brian came out and told us.

Brian: I was like, well, if you wanna fuck her, you're okay to do it by me, but you gotta do it. Like, you gotta go for it. You gotta, you gotta make it happen.

Fer: Yeah.

Brian: That's what, that's what she wants. Uh, and he was like, okay. Which was very

Fer: Got it. So, so you [00:41:00] knew that Catherine wanted a little bit more Yeah, of course.

Maybe it's not the right word, but.

Brian: Effort. Yeah.

Fer: Effort. Effort. Thank you. I just like,

Catherine: I'm just, I'm very direct. Yeah. If you want to do this with me, tell me, you know?

Brian: Yeah,

Fer: right, right. Rightj, like he was talking to her and talking to him about having sex with you. I never,

Catherine: yeah. Like I need to have

Fer: told you

Catherine: I don't need to have like those two and have like an hour long conversation about it, but like, just let me know.

Brian: Yeah.

Catherine: And then we went to like another bar and she always says, she's like, something changed in the air. And like it was just the two of you. So like, him and I were like flirting and super handsy and it was just like him and I, and she always says that her and Brian were just like, like eating popcorn, watching spectating

Brian: sport.

Catherine: And then we went to another bar and then Brian's cousin, who was the ones that we met the first night Yeah. That she and Brian [00:42:00] met. They like showed up and they were like, what is going on here?

Fer: Oh, and they saw you like making out with Yeah. Yeah. Him,

Catherine: yeah. They, they like kind of knew. It was just like a funny, like we joke that like a documentary crew should have been like four us around.

Fer: I mean, I am, I'm fascinated by it. It was a

Brian: great night.

Catherine: Yeah. We had so much fun. Yeah. Um, so we just, we had the best time like in the morning we just like all hung out and watched a movie and had bagels and Yeah. And so now I think by doing that, like now I feel like that's how he and I communicated while she and Brian communicate like, in a different way.

And I feel like it's brought us all kinda like, took us like to a different level.

Fer: That's wonderful. And how long ago was that?

Brian: Um, a month ago.

Catherine: Yeah.

Fer: And Brian was there in like the same house Yep. While mm-hmm. The three of you were having [00:43:00] the threesome?

Catherine: Yeah. Yep. There was interaction and yeah, I mean, it was a long night.

Like Brian wasn't like completely on the outside of the situation. He wasn't in the room, but like he had like his own interactions. Yeah.

Fer: What do you mean by his own interactions?

Catherine: Um, so Brian and she kind of just like spent their own time a little bit, like when we got home, they spent their own time together and then she joined he and I, and then I came upstairs.

Then she came upstairs and then Brian went downstairs. It was kind of just like a

Brian: real free for all.

Catherine: Yeah. It was just like a, the whole lot of sexual energy all night long.

Brian: Yeah.

Catherine: And it was fun.

Brian: Well, but there is a balancing act because I wasn't gonna have sex with her girlfriend. Like that's, we know that.

Catherine: Yeah.

Brian: But her and I still have a sexual relationship. Yeah. I guess you could say just without having Sex

Fer: Central.

Brian: Yeah.

Fer: Yeah. [00:44:00] I'd be curious to hear also how that process was with her husband because mm-hmm. I understand that it was a little bit different and that, Catherine, as you were saying, now that you've had a threesome together that really helped.

A couple. A couple. Awesome. Love that

Brian: you, I guess three. Three. Yeah, we're counting

Fer: three. Nice. Nice. I love that. I'd be curious to hear how that changed the dynamic and before that kind of, what was his process? Right. Because it's an, it's such an interesting like case study, right? Because we have two men experiencing in the same thing, right?

Like their wives are falling in love with another woman. They both have a daughter of like roughly around the same age.

Catherine: Yeah.

Fer: And this is how Brian responded to it, right? We're just talking about it like, sure, there were some insecurities at first, but. Overcame that became friends with the other woman.

Mm-hmm. Started getting turned on by the whole thing. That [00:45:00] was, that was his response, which I celebrate and I think that we need more men with that mentality and with that perspective. Yeah. But what was his process, if

Catherine: you

Fer: don't mind me asking?

Catherine: Well, it's, it, it's hard for me to speak to, like, he and I have never like, sat down and like talked about situation.

Fer: Unlike Brian and her who like talked about it the day they met.

Brian: Yeah.

Catherine: We've got hours and hours. We're more like, Hey, what's up? You know, like,

Fer: but you've had sex with him three times, you know? So

Catherine: yeah,

Fer: again, again, it just goes to show there's many ways to go about it.

Catherine: Yeah. So, and then after that all happened, I said something, I was like, Hmm, maybe we should do it one more time.

And then we did, and then we did it one more time. Um, it can't become like a regular thing, like can't be like an every weekend thing. And it was fun to do [00:46:00] it like three weekends in a row when you sleep with somebody and then you get to know their bodies or it's like more and more fun and I think it will probably happen again.

I'm sure it'll happen again, but like when I don't know. And yeah.

Fer: That's awesome. What a wild ride. I love it, Brian. And I mean, we've already talked about how you. Feed off that energy.

Brian: Yeah.

Fer: But what happens when, you know, all of a sudden there's another man entering that dynamic that, that you, I mean, I know you are in it a little bit, but Yeah.

But don't you feel a little bit excluded or, I feel like a lot of, a lot of people might feel that way, like, oh, like I thought it was just their thing now it's their thing and his thing too. And like, what about, what about me? You know? Yeah. Like, what, what happened? Like, do you have any of those feelings?

Brian: I did have 'em for sure.

I think if anything throughout, it's really kind of funny [00:47:00] throughout, uh, their whole relationship, I feel like a part of it has always been about me. So I, you know, they're, they're giving me something that I want every time. And like that first night that it happened. Like we said, there were other things that happened that involved me, but I was just in a different room.

Uh, and matter of fact, I actually walked in on them, on all three of them, and I was just like, no, that's not for me. That's not for me. Like I was gonna give it a go. I was like, no, that's okay.

Fer: But I love that, that you're like, okay. They were open to that. You were open to trying it. You picked, you're like, Nope, I'd rather

Brian: just, yeah, yeah, no, and then, yeah, I think, you know, like full transparency, right?

I think the three weekends in a row kind of, I was like, oh, I. This shit's going down every weekend, eh?

Catherine: Well, and I think the progression of it. The first night he was there, the second night he was alone. Our kid wasn't here, so he got to just kind of like enjoy [00:48:00] the night by himself. He was waiting for me when I got home.

You know, we had the whole afternoon with no kids, so we got to like spend time together and like he got to have his own fun and then the third time he was like home with our kid.

Brian: Yeah.

Catherine: So like, the progression probably was,

Brian: probably got a little better for her and a little worse for me.

Catherine: Yeah.

Brian: I

Fer: see.

Brian: You know, there was probably maybe a, just a little pinch of insecurity just I think is like primitive insecurity, you know, we talked about it.

Mm-hmm. Um, I don't even know. It's, uh, hard to explain. That was kind of just feeling anxious a little bit. Maybe just 'cause it was a new dynamic. And I think, uh, for maybe you and I had talked about this previously, like you can map out how you think you're gonna feel about something. Like conceptually, but then when it happens, the chemistry of your body makes you feel how you actually are really gonna feel.

And you just have to rationalize with that. Like obviously I was okay with it. I literally blessed it

Catherine: right.

Brian: And encouraged it. [00:49:00] But then like I was like, oh, this, this makes me feel a certain way. Uh, and there was a certain level of uneasiness with it, but that wasn't even that long ago. And I'm past that now, you know?

So

Catherine: yeah.

Brian: And I probably had to verbalize my thoughts to Catherine a couple too many times 'cause that's who I am. And she listened to it and supported it and told me. Mm-hmm.

Fer: Mm-hmm. Yeah. What did that conversation look like?

Brian: I'm the kind of person who, and I've always been this way, like, just, I gotta talk my way through it.

Fer: Mm-hmm.

Brian: Over and over again. And I usually feel like if I talk my way through things, I kind of resolve things.

Fer: Mm-hmm.

Brian: As they go. Um. Which I think is good. Good advice. I think for a lot just talk your way through it. Like it's,

Catherine: yeah,

Brian: no, no matter what your is happening in a relationship, just talk about it.

And if, until until you beat a dead and eventually you'll get a [00:50:00] resolution out of it. To that point though, I think probably I should have maybe sat with my thoughts a little longer and just let everything kind of chill out, you know? 'cause the day after reaction or the two day after reaction is different, I think, than the seven or 10 day after reaction like, like with anything new, right?

Like you experience something, you feel a certain way, then it hits you a little different way, then you react to it. And these were a lot of new, generally I would say they're like new emotions, right? Whether they're insecure emotions about myself or about our relationship or whatever it was like they're just big.

They're just big emotions to deal with. And sometimes it might've been better. Had I just kind of let 'em settle, but that's not who I am. So kind of just blasted her with all my shit every day.

Fer: Yeah, I think you said a lot there. That's very true. You don't know how you're gonna feel until you try it, and that's the only way you're going to [00:51:00] know.

And also, sometimes it takes some time kind of for your body to catch up to the fact that it's okay for them to have a reason without you. Right, right. Because we have this conditioning that's like. You are being left out. You are not man enough. Like whatever the internal talk is that like, you know, it's not true, but your body is still

Catherine: Yeah, yeah.

Fer: Still hasn't like connected what your brain is telling you. Right? Yeah. I had some guests that call it the wonky, which basically that's what it means. Like when you know there's no reason to feel jealous, but your body's still not there. But then eventually your body catches up. Right? Yeah. So like now a few days later you are, you are like, okay, actually I feel better about it.

Catherine: Yeah. Right.

Fer: The other thing you said is, okay, maybe I shouldn't just tell Catherine everything about it. Like immediately. Yes, of course, talk about it. But that's another thing I really encourage my clients to do, because we all have a tendency, or I don't know if all, but I also had that tendency of, oh, I'm feeling this thing.

I'm just gonna [00:52:00] talk to my partner about it. Mm-hmm. Or I'm just gonna call my friend, or I'm just gonna talk to my mom. Or I'm just, you know. And sometimes we just have to sit with the feeling, let ourselves feel the feeling, and then talk to ourselves. I love that you. Journal Ryan, like I, I tell my clients, okay.

Just like, you know, meditate, journal, give yourself a couple of days and then go and talk to your partner. And that conversation is going to look a lot different

Brian: and it'll, those conversations I think are more productive when you do that too. Like, 'cause you're thinking more rationally about things. Yeah.

You're not, well, it's less reaction. You're not letting your feelings take over. Um

Catherine: mm-hmm.

Brian: So,

Catherine: yeah.

Fer: Yeah, exactly.

Catherine: I think that not knowing how you're going to feel until it happens is really such an important thing to acknowledge. Like, truly acknowledge and accept. Like the first time that we had a threesome, like I very vividly remember.

Brian going [00:53:00] to have sex with her and like me looking at her and being like, do you want him to fuck you right now? Like, 'cause you know, we had been drinking and like it was very late. And then she was like, yes. Like yes. And then like I was like, oh my God, it's happening. It's gonna happen right now. Oh my God.

And then I immediately was like, yep, I'm into this. Like I had always thought I would be, but I don't know, like, you know, some fantasies are just meant to live as fantasies. Right. And luckily for us,

Brian: yeah,

Catherine: it worked. And even when I slept with her and her husband, we started without her, like not on purpose.

It was just kind of like this again, it was like late, it's like kind of like this animalistic thing that happened. And she came downstairs and she told me like afterwards. Like for a minute I was like, oh, oh, should I be pissed? But she was really into it. Thank God. You know that it all worked out. But [00:54:00] again, right, like you don't know.

You just don't.

Fer: Yeah. And sometimes you feel both. I mean, I haven't felt that because my partner is monogamous, but sometimes you feel like a little bit jealous and a little bit turned on at the same time. And I think that if you learn to lean into the turnon as opposed as, as leaning into the jealousy that that can, can help a lot.

Yeah. Catherine, I, I'm curious because sounds like. You have been able to give Brian the support that he needs in those moments when he's felt insecure?

Catherine: Mm-hmm.

Fer: What, what does that look like for, for people out there who are maybe like, oh, my partner comes to me and tells me, Hey, I, I feel insecure about you having attri with this couple, or you doing this, or it's like, what, what do you say?

What do you do? Because on the one hand, you know, you didn't do anything wrong necessarily.

Catherine: Yeah.

Fer: But you can still [00:55:00] feel a little bit guilty that, okay, I heard my partner. Or like, what do you tell them? Like, how do you deal with that situation?

Catherine: Um, I think that, you know, first and foremost is to listen.

Really just listen and let them talk and ask questions. And then I would say a couple like of pivotal moments for me would, would be after I had listened to some other podcasts myself and. There were a couple instances like that I heard that like really struck me, like made me put myself into his shoes that I really hadn't because I was, I was caught up in all of it.

I was caught up in like the excitement and the new relationship energy and how good I was feeling. So kind of listening to other experiences helped me. And one of it was a person was talking about their partner laughing and how like that hurt them so much. And I, I asked Brian, does it hurt you when she makes me laugh?

And [00:56:00] he had said he, he kind of like looked shocked. He was like, oh yeah, kind of, you know, he's like, I just kind of get that feeling in my stomach if I see you smiling at your phone. And then that just like made me feel, it did make me feel bad. It just made me feel something. Yeah, I think really too empathy, like I need to pay more attention.

And just be like more aware of my surroundings. So that was one thing, just like really listening and like asking questions. I think because asking that question like so honestly can like put him in a space to be vulnerable and like tell me maybe thoughts that he is been having that maybe he was afraid to share.

Fer: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And sometimes there's no solution, right? Right. Like sometimes it's just often, you know, it's like, yeah, I feel this about. The threesome. Mm-hmm. I'm not asking you to stop doing the, the threesome, right. I'm just, I'm just saying this is how I feel and, and if the other person really feels like they're being listened to, [00:57:00] I think the questions is a great, great tip because a lot of people just jump to, to reassurance, right?

Like, no, babe, I love you. I'm not gonna leave you for someone else, blah, blah, blah. And sure, all of these, those things are great, but often what people want is not that because they know that, like Brian knows that, right?

Catherine: Mm-hmm.

Fer: They just want the space where they can feel like it's okay for them to feel that way.

Catherine: Yeah.

Fer: You know,

Catherine: it is national for me to defend myself or like kind of just always be like on guard because now like not only am I protecting my marriage, right, but like now I'm protecting this love and relationship that I have. So I think like kind of letting that guard down by asking questions instead of.

Like talking.

Fer: Yeah. Justifying yourself.

Catherine: Yeah.

Brian: Yeah. I think that's really one thing kind of overall too, that's a good thing. Like you can't get into the battle of who's more right or more wrong about something. You know? You just have to [00:58:00] discuss how you're feeling there. 'cause a lot of times there isn't a right or wrong.

Like the way you feel about something is very difficult to quantify who did something, you know, what was that particular line item that said, this is what did you know? And I think

Catherine: who's I'm guilty of,

Brian: I think like, I think a lot of couples look, it's a typical argument, like who's got the upper hand in this argument?

Catherine: Mm-hmm.

Brian: And like maybe it's not even an argument, maybe it's just a discussion where we can learn something about each other and how we're gonna feel about things moving forward.

Fer: Exactly.

Brian: And we're really lucky. We kind of hardly ever argue. So we have a lot of these really just good discussions. Where we're, I feel like.

One of the things we've done well is like, we don't try to say who's done better than the other one or who's not as bad as the other one? Or, you know, if that makes any sense. Yeah.

Fer: Yeah. I think the aspect of moving forward is really important. That's something that I've also learned from my partner and, and we, I think we have a similar relationship in the [00:59:00] same, in the sense that like, we don't fight almost at all.

Like very rarely. We argue very, very rarely. I'm at fault too of like being like. Going back to the past and being like, no, but if you had done this thing, I wouldn't have done this thing. And then you, you know, and then like trying to find who is, is there to blame. Yeah. I, I tend to like get, get into that and like my partner is always like, okay, it doesn't matter.

It happened.

Brian: Yeah.

Fer: What are we doing moving forward to avoid that from happening again? Yeah. And sure, sometimes those things are related, right? Because understanding who did what will inform, like what you should do moving forward. But often the details don't matter. Like what's important is next time instead of doing this, we're doing this thing, right?

So I always encourage people to, instead of just saying, oh, you did this, blah, blah, blah. It's like, okay, what I need from you next time. Is this right? And and just focus on the lesson as opposed to focusing on what [01:00:00] went wrong.

Brian: Yeah.

Fer: Yep. Well, thank you so much for sharing all that, so much wisdom. In this episode, I like to end my interviews by asking, what would you tell to a poly curious person, thinking of maybe yourselves earlier in the journey, or just someone who's new based on your experience and what you've learned, like what would be like a piece of advice that you want to leave the listeners with?

Brian: Talk a lot.

Fer: Yeah.

Brian: Be honest. You gotta be honest. If you're not honest, it's never gonna, I don't wanna say it's never gonna work out, right, but honesty goes so far.

Catherine: I would say being fluid, like what we set out to do and what we are doing are two very different things. But I think that if you truly allow yourself to be fluid, but also honoring yourself.

During that, you know, like just finding that balance of those two things, I think you'll find that it's successful.

Fer: Yeah. Honoring [01:01:00] yourself, but also being fluid, like finding the balance. 'cause Yeah. Because sometimes you're like, okay, I am gonna go with the flow, blah, blah, blah. Yeah. And then you don't say, no, actually I'm not okay with this.

Yeah. And I think that's why the non monogamous journey is so interesting because it's a constant like asking yourself,

Catherine: yeah,

Fer: what do I need? Yeah. What do I want? Like how do I express this? And it's, it's a practice, right? Yeah. And, and it's easy not to have to think about those things when you're just in the monogamous relationship.

Yeah. 'cause that's the thing that, that you do. And there's no question when there's so many options, then you have to really like tune in with yourself.

Brian: Yeah.

Fer: And, and be honest, as you said.

Catherine: Yeah. And I think. Also, one more thing is I would say like don't focus on the end game. Especially me, like I like to share with people and we've shared with a lot of our friends and family with what's happening because I don't believe in just like keeping a secret life.

I think one of the number one questions that people ask is like, well what? What's the end game? Yeah. Like, where does [01:02:00] this go? I don't, I don't know.

Brian: Who knows?

Catherine: You know? And then like, don't let that question influence. Like the way that you're walking through the relationship or the experience.

Brian: Yeah.

Catherine: Because,

Fer: yeah,

Catherine: you don't know.

None of us know.

Fer: Yeah. And you know, even if everything were to end tomorrow, I'm sure you would still be super grateful for the experience. Right. And again, I think that that's another thing that's beautiful about non-monogamy, that it's not about the end goal, it's not about the marriage or the how's the kids, whatever.

It's about the journey. It's really not about the destination. Yeah. You know, so I think it's like a metaphor for

Brian: Yeah.

Fer: Life as well.

Brian: I mean our, I think our relationship is. It was good already. And it's like so much better because of it. Just because of what we've learned about each other. Yeah.

Catherine: I'm a better wife and mother.

Brian: Yeah. And I'm a better husband and father. Yeah.

Catherine: And a better

Brian: friend and friend. Yeah. You know,

Catherine: like,

Fer: well, honestly, I'm so in inspired by your [01:03:00] relationship, by how you're going about it. I am very, very, very grateful that you shared your story with us. And I think that is gonna open a lot of people's eyes to what life can be.

Yeah. If only they have the openness and the willingness to have those hard conversations.

Brian: Yeah, for sure. Thank you. Thanks for what you do. 'cause I think your podcast and all the guests that we've listened to have really shown us a lot too, so it's really great that there's. Outlets out there for us to listen and learn, and it's really fun and it's really great.

Yeah. Thank you so much.

Fer: You're very welcome.