Adam: [00:00:00] When your brain starts creating negative outcome fantasies, they are incredibly powerful and they seem so real. Oh, they're probably having the best night ever. She's gonna leave me and be with these guys, which is ridiculous. But at the time, the emotion that you feel around it is debilitating. So recognizing the death spiral of fear as you go down it, and also recognizing that you are reacting to a, a fantasy, a negative outcome fantasy that that's made up, it doesn't exist yet.

So I tried to understand why the negative outcome fantasies were, were so strong, and that's where I dove deep into my psyche and found the imposter syndrome. I think that's the hardest thing to do is when you're in that state and you're feeling low and you're feeling alone and your emotions are raging, but asking the question, where is this really coming from?

What am I actually afraid of here?

Fer: Hi everyone. Welcome to Polycurious. I am Fer relationship coach and host of this [00:01:00] podcast, and today I have a. Adam, who is the author of the book, Seek the Risk. And as far as I know, and please send me any books if you know of another book like this one. But as far as I know, this is the only memoir by a man about non-monogamy.

So I really wanted to get the male's perspective when it comes to the insecurities that might come up. Especially when you have a partner, a girlfriend in this case who is a lot more sexual than you are in his case, coming from a background of doing stream sports. He felt really masculine before he started this relationship.

Throughout the relationship had to face a lot of insecurities, a lot of questions to his masculinity, and ultimately he realized that he needed to learn to refrain his mindset. He needed to learn to deal with that fear, [00:02:00] and he actually took a lot of what he had learned from the world of extreme sports to navigate non-monogamy.

One of the things we talk about is cognitive reframing, meaning instead of thinking, for example, this person is going to leave me, they're probably having the best time. I'm not as good as this other person, et cetera. You can flip it around and think about if you are non-monogamous as well. For example, think about all the times that you have been with someone else and how that doesn't mean that you don't want to be with your partner, or you can think about the things that you're getting.

From your partner being in other relationships, like time to be on your own, time to be with your friends, maybe a better sex life with your partner because they come back. Feed that energy from their other relationships into your own relationship. Right. Also, very importantly, we talk about recognizing their narratives that we tell ourselves and how they [00:03:00] might or might not be true.

So in his case, he had some imposter syndrome feeling like he wasn't masculine enough, attractive enough, or whatever. Fill in the blank, whatever you feel insecure about. But then when he found himself having to look at all of these insecurities, he actually realized that that's just a narrative, just like your narrative, that your partner is gonna leave you for someone else.

The narrative that there's something wrong with you. It's just that it's a narrative and there's so much power in realizing that those stories are there and we must. Welcome them in. In a way we shouldn't repress them because feelings are feelings and we're humans. But also we can say that is not true.

We can acknowledge the feeling, we can process it, but that doesn't mean we have to believe the narrative that is making us feel that feeling. So I think that this episode might be especially. [00:04:00] Interesting for men, but for anyone who's ever felt insecure in this non monogamous journey, and I bet that most of you have, and if you want some more from this conversation.

Check out my bonus content on Patreon, where we talk about how Adam overcame a lot of different online comments that were directly attacking his masculinity After Jane, who was his partner and the subject of this book, started a blog talking about all of her sexual experiences. Ultimately, he had to. Learn to believe in his masculinity and know himself no matter what other people say.

So if you wanna check that out, make sure to subscribe to my Patreon. You'll find the link in the episode description. Also there, you'll find the link to check out Adam's book. Seek the Risk. I highly recommend it. Very interesting, very useful, especially for men. But as Adam mentioned in the interview, also for [00:05:00] women.

If you learn something from this episode and feel like someone else, maybe another friend of yours who's struggling with jealousy or insecurity would benefit from it. Please make sure to share the podcast. Okay, let's get into it. Here's my interview with Adam from Seek the Risk.

Adam, welcome to Polycurious. I'm so excited to have you. This is actually the first interview I do in person in my house in Denver. Alright. So, yeah, very excited to kick things off. And as I was just telling you a moment ago, I'm especially interested in your book because there's very few stories out there around men's experience with non-monogamy.

You were saying that you don't know of any either. And as you know, men also really struggle with that. And there's a few memoirs of women. Speaking about their experiences, which [00:06:00] have been super helpful, but not that many men talking about it. So thank you so much for writing the book and for coming here to, to do the interview today.

Adam: Well, thank you for having me. It's great to be here.

Fer: Before we get into the book, which I'd love for you to give like a little overview for listeners who haven't read it, which everyone should go and read it. Tell me about you, like about your background, where did you grow up and, and before the book. A story took place.

Uh, what was kind of your background in, in non-monogamy? Yeah.

Adam: Uh, well, my background in non-monogamy was, uh, nearly non-existent. Grew up in New York City, so I, I grew up in a pretty liberal environment, so I already had somewhat of a liberal. Thinking towards sex and relationships. Um, or at least I thought I did.

Went to college in New England and then from there, went out into the world and started, uh, participating in, competing in a lot of extreme sports, a lot of very masculine, male dominated, [00:07:00] uh, environments. Uh, almost toxic, you could say in, in, in some ways. Through my dating life. During that period, I did seek out women that I thought were alternative or freaky or you wanna say it.

And um, I thought I was, you know, so badass. 'cause I occasionally had threesomes with my girlfriend and another woman. One of my climbing partners had a. Me have sex with his girlfriend and him once. So that was about the MFM threesome when I was in my twenties as well. So I came through my twenties thinking I was living this wild and crazy sex life.

Moved into my thirties when I left sports and entered more of a professional business world and started working a Wall Street a little bit, but then started opening, uh, businesses and my dating life started continued along around the same until I met Jane, which is the subject of the book. My relationship with Jane and.

Jane Shattered. Everything that I knew about relationships and female sexuality and then my own know and male sexuality, and it, it, it blew me away. [00:08:00] She thought my level of sexual experience was adorable, you know? Oh, it's cute. Isn't that nice? You have threesomes, you know, and this is a woman who had slept with four or 500 people by then and had once had a gang bang with 12 men and such.

So that was my introduction to non-monogamy, was meeting Jane and falling for her. That's sort of the background of how this, how the story begins.

Fer: Yeah. And I happen to know Jane and, and I love that she's so forward with her sexuality. And as I was sharing with you before, a part of the mission that I have with the podcast is to normalize women being that sexual.

But it's hard to find women that are as self-assured and sexual as she is. I feel like I am. Also that way to some degree, but I don't compare to her, you know? But I love that being with her helped you really look at yourself and really question [00:09:00] some of your masculinity and, uh, toxic masculinity, maybe even, which is something that all, all of us grow up with, right?

Mm-hmm. And, and you, you might want. To do things differently, but you might not realize how strong those beliefs are to challenge them by being with a woman like her. So tell us a little bit about the book and how your relationship with Jane initially challenged you in that way.

Adam: Yeah, it's um. I'd always supported, you know, female sexuality.

I'd always women to let their freak flag fly. And I'd always been nonjudgmental and I'd always sought out women like that as my partners. 'cause I like a little wild wildness. I'm someone who seeks adventure. But I had this blind spot that I was completely unaware of. And Jane kind of. Brought that blind spot to my attention with like a baseball bat to the face kind of.

I think it was like, whoa, like, wait, what? You know, her idea of a relationship was, oh, I'll go out and fuck whoever I want whenever I want to. [00:10:00] And that does no, no effect on our relationship and I that. I didn't even know what to do with that. Um, so I ignored it at first. Uh, I mean, I, I, I, I met her and, you know, she's European.

She was getting a, a PhD from an Ivy League University. Spoke five languages, incredibly intelligent. You know, we, we loved art and music and theater and, and so we connected on all these really intellectual levels. But yet there was this side of her that just did not compute with how I saw the world and how I saw relationships, but I really wanted to be with her.

So I was forced into this space of, well, you, if you, if you wanna be with this woman, you're gonna have to do some adjusting. You're gonna have to do some learning. Or find some other way, some other workaround. And the initial workaround I did was let's just do a don't ask, don't tell. I don't wanna know what you're doing.

'cause she was still living up at school and I was living in New York, so I had a complete don't ask, don't tell thing. And that worked great for me until she graduated and we wanted to move in together. And [00:11:00] that don't ask, don't tell, didn't. Work anymore when you're living with someone. Obviously in my head I had assumed that when we moved in together, her behavior would, would stop.

Like, oh, now we're gonna be a couple, you know, a normal couple, or what I considered normal and now she was like, uh, I'm sorry, did. Did you think I was gonna change? Just 'cause we were moving in with each other? Yeah, there's a lot is a discussion in the book where she says, you know, she can't wait to be living in New York City and have all the available men and such.

And I was like, wait, what? We're gonna continue doing this once, once we're living together. And she's like, yeah, what do you think I was gonna change?

Fer: Yeah. And I think she made it very clear from the very beginning she was like. I am this way. And I think she even said like, oh, everyone always wants to change me.

Yeah. Right? Mm-hmm. And, and you probably know more about that experience, but I think even people like you who were initially open to it, aware of it because she was really straightforward. There was this idea of yeah, she is like that, but also. [00:12:00] Not fully understanding what she was saying from the beginning.

Adam: A absolutely.

Fer: Yeah. Because it's so rare, right? Experie, you hadn't seen examples,

Adam: right? Experie? Yeah. Yeah. This is new territory. Yeah. We, when we first started hooking up, she's like, now don't you fall for me. I'm not the kind of girl who has a boyfriend. She's like, 'cause they always try to. Change me and I kind of dismissed that second part 'cause I'm like, ah, I'm an evolved male.

I'm not gonna try and make my girlfriend change. But then I was like, oh my God, she's right. I'm just another guy who's trying to change her. Then I was like, fuck, I don't wanna be that guy, but I have to figure out how to, how to evolve. I have to figure out how to find a way through. And my initial find a way through.

Unfortunately, unfortunately, I don't know. I'm not sure which. Um, I travel a lot for work, so. I kind of just kept the don't ask, don't tell. I was like, listen, can you just only be non, you know, have your crazy wild one-on-one sex Capades when I travel, which was about half the time. And then when I'm home, we can have fun times together with, if we're doing non-monogamy, we're doing [00:13:00] it together.

So that was the initial, that's how we initially did it. But that didn't, that didn't last very long.

Fer: Yeah.

Adam: It was very difficult for me.

Fer: Yeah. Yeah. And with the very interesting, because. I've been saying that my partner and I have a Don has don't tell. Now I'm changing that framing because everyone's telling me what you have is not a Don has Don't tell.

Because my partner knows the people I date. He knows when I'm dating them, and he knows if their relationship is becoming a little bit more significant than just like, uh, friends with benefits or whatever. But we don't talk about the details and you know, I come back from a data and we don't talk about it.

And a lot of people criticize Don as Don tell, because they think that that means that the partner that doesn't want to know is not fully aware or ignoring or you know, not really dealing with what, what's happening. And I'd always be like. No, I mean, not [00:14:00] necessarily like said my partner doesn't know the details, but it's not like he doesn't, doesn't know what is going on or is not, you know, facing the reality.

But then I read your book and I was like, oh, actually, I understand why people criticize Don ask and tell, because in your case, it made you ignore something that was there and then you couldn't ignore anymore when you moved in together. But it was, it changed my, it changed my perspective.

Adam: Oh, well, I'm, wow.

Okay. I'm, I'm glad. It's nice to know that you're, you. My, my, the words I write had had impact, so that's, that's really nice to hear. Um, on that same vein, one of Jane's love languages was her sexuality and with her partner, me, and. She really wanted to share the experiences she was having. Like to her, that was how she would get closer to me.

So if I would return from a trip, she would wanna tell me about this great MFM threesome she had with these two guys or whatever. And she really wanna do that. And, and we [00:15:00] have this discussion and she says, look, if you don't know about these things, you don't really know who I am. You're only living with part of me.

If you really wanna be with me, you wanna be with me long term. You have to accept all parts of me. And so. The don't ask, don't tell to her meant I was rejecting part of her to her. Whe whether or not, I mean, I'm not saying that's that's always true in every situation, but in that situation it was in some way I was rejecting her.

So. I said, okay, I'll start, I'll start allowing, allowing, I'll, I'll listen if you wanna tell me about your sexcapades when I return home. I said I only wanted to hear about them when I returned home. I didn't wanna, I didn't wanna hear about them when I was traveling on the phone. Um, so she started sharing them and that destroyed me.

Like I just, hearing them just tore me to pieces and I kept pretending I was okay, but it wasn't working. What's funny is that to her telling about me brought us closer, but to me it pushed me further away. And there's this one scene in the book where [00:16:00] we're at theater and we're where the, the lights are about to go down.

We're sitting there holding hands. I noticed a bracelet on her, on her wrist and I was like, oh, that's cool. Where'd you get that? She goes, oh, I had a threesome with this guy, uh, these two guys. And one of 'em was designer. He makes them, he gave them to me. Isn't that great Then like. The lights go down and the theater begins, and, and it's this immersive experience in an Allison Wonderland thing, and I'm just, my brain just is exploding now.

I'm just, I'm jealous, I'm angry, I'm feeling threatened. I, I don't know what's going on. And meanwhile, the, there's, I'm being walked around to all these theater scenes by the Alice Wonderland, uh, characters like in the M hat or in the rabbit. It was a very, like, almost tripping experience for me. But that kind of stuff was continually happening to the point where.

I was like, look, something's gotta change her. I'm out of this relationship. I can't do it, and I really want to do it because there's so many amazing things about this relationship, including the non-monogamy. When we were together, she would frequently bring a, you know, a, a friend of hers home. We'd have a fun, uh, FMF [00:17:00] threesome.

I, I was living my best sex life with her. But, you know, she took me to sex parties, which there's a whole scene about that that initially is kind of challenging. But I mean, she opened my eyes to an incredible world of sexuality and it was incredible. At the same time I was being destroyed by it. So I was living both of these realities and, and a lot of the book is trying to rationalize and trying to understand where all the negative, all the negative emotions are coming from, from the stuff she's doing.

Fer: Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's, it's interesting because. I get her side of wanting to connect, like I feel similarly. I came back from a trip a few months ago and it's a little bit different than coming back from a date and not talking about it. Right. And I was like wanting to connect with Seth and wanting to share.

We had a conversation about it and he was like, if you had shared. At that moment, after coming back from the trip, I would've felt disconnected from you. So that's kind of like what I was happening to you. Exactly. She was like, this is part of, of me. And like it's a big part of [00:18:00] her. Right. Uh, in her case, probably bigger than, than what it is for me.

And how could you not see it? But there's also the reality that if you see it, you feel disconnected, it's harder. So again, that's why. Sometimes I'm a proponent of don't ask, don't tell at the beginning. 'cause I'm like, it's a lot already knowing that she went on a date. It's a lot, right? So do you need to know about the sex that she had and all of those things?

It can be traumatic in a way, and then you might not even want to do it. So I always recommend to people first limit all the details. Like don't really talk about it. And then like little by little you can start introducing it when it becomes more manageable and. I think that, that that can work. But I also get her point of like, yeah, hey, you are not, you're not fully seeing it.

But I think in your case, the issue wasn't so much how much she was sharing. Although, although yes, it became like a lot for you, but the fact that you kept your feelings in right. That like you would feel triggered, you feel [00:19:00] jealous and you felt like you couldn't express that. Mm-hmm. Because if you express that, maybe she would break up with you or something.

'cause she seemed. Accommodating and accepting, but also I think you wrote at some point that she had made clear that she wasn't going to be there for like your emotional processing.

Adam: YY yeah. There's a, there's a, there's two things going on there, uh, in the book for the, the part you're describing. Uh, the first was I had my own sense of masculinity and not wanting to seem weak, right?

I came from this, this sports com competitive sports world of. Toughy, it's all about toughness. It's all about who's gonna be the toughest, and you can't show weakness and you have to manage fear. And so I was in this mindset of being the strong guy, like, no, I'm, I'm not gonna show weakness. But then there's the other side of it too, where she did not have, and, and for good reason.

She didn't have a lot of patience for the, you know, fragile male ego when she saw so much hypocrisy in the world of sexuality. Mm-hmm. With men and women. And [00:20:00] there's also another point that, that we're not, that we haven't spoken about. She encouraged me to go out and have crazy wild times on my own, which,

Fer: and she did not get jealous at all.

Adam: Not at all. So she was always encouraging me to have go to get on apps and go hook up. And I did. And I, when I went on my travels, you know, I was on my, my work trips. Yeah. I was. Hooking up meeting women and having a great time. So I'm like, if it's okay for me to do that, why am I getting so bent up for what she's doing?

So there were a couple things. There's, I guess there's a lot of things going on there, but she specifically, and this was a failing on her part for sure, and, and she admits this now. That she didn't want to hear about my jealousy issue. She had no patience for it. She's like, get over it. It's your fragile male ego.

Grow up. I, I, I don't want to hear it. So I knew that I, I was on this journey alone, the emotional journey I was on alone. And that was too bad because, I mean, it forced me to grown in ways that I might not have otherwise grown. Uh, but at the same time was [00:21:00] really, really difficult. So, I I you, it's hard to say whether.

It was good or bad, even though she recognizes it as not being very empathetic to her partner, who is me.

Fer: Yeah. It forced you to go into this journey alone. 'cause even though she made clear that she had no patience for your jealousy, I feel like a lot of men do what you did. Even when their partner is open to receiving and open to being there for them, but they're just like, I shouldn't feel jealous.

Why do I feel this way? If she's not jealous or he's not jealous, whatever. And they just keep it in. Right. And I think that something that's important in the process of opening up is being there for the feelings that your partner has, even if, if those feelings come from things that they agreed to. Right.

So I feel like when, you know, when you say, Hey, Jane, yeah. Go and have your phone and, and you know, have your threesomes and stuff, and then she'd come back and tell you about it. You could tell her, okay, I'm glad you [00:22:00] had fun. Also, I'm having a little bit of jealousy and insecurity, but without like pouring all of those feelings on them.

And also some days, maybe you don't wanna say it and you want want to do the processing on your own because it's okay for them to be be there, but also. You. You can't blame your partner for it. One of the things that I always recommend to people is that they have a set time to talk about these things, right?

Yeah. Let's set a time to do this, which I actually wanted to. Talk about that, because I think a lot, a lot of the issues come about when you are not ready to hear certain things and then your partner just tells you, right? Like when she was like, oh yeah, I had a threesome.

Adam: Yeah.

Fer: With this guy who gave me this bracelet.

Right? Like when you were in the middle of a date, there was supposed to be a special, right? So you were like, okay, let's set a specific. Timeframe where I'm gonna hear about all your escapades and then you, you know, she would be detailed about her experiences and you found yourself feeling [00:23:00] uncomfortable, but also kind of aroused.

Can you talk about that, that experience? Because I feel like a lot of people can identify with that, right. Of just being like, uh, I feel uncomfortable, but also I'm kind of horny, you know?

Adam: Right. So there's, um, there's a, the, there was a two step. Uh, process there. And the first was, yeah, I got this. She would surprise me with stories, which as we found out, like sometimes at the theater or whatever, and it got to a point where I was always.

I was apprehensive because I never knew when a story was gonna come up. And then all of a sudden I'm walking around. So I'd be away for two weeks. I'd be home for two weeks away. The two weeks I was home, I started to be tense the whole time. 'cause I never knew when a story was gonna come up. So that was really unhealthy.

And there's the point in the book where I finally, it's like, you know what? We're gonna get very deliberate. I'm gonna set a time, I'm gonna come back from my business trip. And we are, she's gonna tell me all the stories in one go, boom, boom, boom, however many there are. And then they're outta the way. And then I'm done and then I can, then we can just have our own fun for the next two weeks while I'm home.

[00:24:00] And initially. It was definitely the right move. It was very hard to sit there and listen to her stories. And I was doing a lot of reframing and trying to be like, well switch the roles. You know, I had a great thing, but I was getting through it and it, that, that was the first thing that really, that turned the corner for me and the relationship and that was great, but the impact was getting less, but I still was uncomfortable.

And then there was this one moment where we had finished dinner and we were planning to have our, our share time, which is always on the second night, uh, I got back. She had spilled wine in her jeans or something. And so she had taken her pants off and she was cleaning up from dinner. 'cause I would generally cook.

She was a terrible cook. She would clean up and Jane was just smoking hot. And she's walking around this thong, uh, in this little midd drift. And I'm watching her clean up and I'm just kind of just getting really aroused. And then she sat down and started telling me the story about this massage therapist who she went and got a massage from, but he started touching her and there's, she was just, he was lingering.

Too long around certain areas.

Fer: Also, like her [00:25:00] story sounds like a, like a porn me.

Adam: It was, it was literally sounding like a porn. And the massage fantasy is always like a thing for me. So I was getting really turned on and she's sitting there in her thong and, and telling me stories and then. I think she probably recognized it.

Then she puts her hand on my leg while she's telling me the stormy story, and then she unzips my pants and she's telling me her story while she's giving me a happy ending to her story. Even though her massage was a happy ending, and it was just this like incredibly connected moment between the two of us where all of a sudden it was like, boom.

Oh my God. Like this is erotic. It's really erotic. Hearing her stories. Yeah, I'm like getting, I, I'm getting an erotic reading from a sexy underwear model who's. Also stroking my cock. It was, and so our story time sort of started becoming a lot of that. It would, it would just morph into, into, into sex. And when I knew that story time was going to morph into sex, it made it really, it made me look forward to it.

Yeah. And I wanted, it became erotic and it was, so we [00:26:00] had, I had reframed the whole thing into this.

Fer: Yeah.

Adam: Fun, uh, experience.

Fer: Yeah. It shows how it's all about mindset, right? Mm-hmm. Because you could have. Chosen to focus on how uncomfortable you were, or you can choose to focus on how aroused you were. Right, right.

And yeah, it makes me think with, with my partner Seth, so he really likes to spend time on his own. So when. I go out on a date he thinks about like how nice it is to be alone. Right? And I mean, he doesn't really experience much jealousy anymore, but at first his advice was to people who would be, you know, at home and their partner is on a date and you're feeling jealous or uncomfortable.

Instead of thinking about that, why don't you think about how nice it is to have the house to yourself? Right? Or or if Exactly, or if you're out with a friend. Like how nice, right? So it's also just like what you decide to focus on and how you want to approach it and. You know, the brain is a muscle, right?

So then like, as you said, you were starting to associate the story time as like this [00:27:00] sexy thing instead of this scary thing that had you nervous and, and stressed for weeks before. Right. So, so I thought that that was really great that you decided to, to structure it in that way.

Adam: Yeah, I mean, I had no role.

I mean this was back in 2010, right? So this was non monogamy wasn't as popular, I guess, or there wasn't so much information out there, so I had nothing to go on. I was kind of making it up as I went along.

Fer: Yeah,

Adam: and that reframing is what you just said, what you choose to focus on that. That in itself is such a, a game changer.

Um, being able to reframe change, your focus is just, changes your emotional response. Mm-hmm. The mean of the book is when I was broken down to the point where I didn't know what to do anymore. I looked back at my experience actually in, in the extreme sports world and. In the extreme sports world, a lot of what we're doing is managing emotions.

We're managing fear. We're going towards things that were scarce, but we're managing that fear. We're managing those emotions. And [00:28:00] what I realized in from my previous, you know, my previous life of, of competitive sports, was that. The journey and the experiences I were having were better because of the emotions, because of the natural emotions that would come up, right?

Not in spite of them. They were better for them. I used to think there was something wrong with me for having the fear that I had in the things that I did. Uh, I thought, oh man, look at all these other people. They're not afraid. There's something wrong with me. I'm afraid. But first, then I finally realized that's not true.

Everyone's afraid, and it's just, it's the journey of managing those emotions. And when I started thinking about non-monogamy that way and that, okay, wait, these emotions I'm having are totally, that's okay. They're normal. It's normal to have emotions. Emotions can be good. I mean, and I mean, having them is good.

Uh, if they control you, it's bad. So I started it, it, I. It started me reframing my experiences. And reframing is another tool we use a lot in, in, in climbing. Um, uh, a lot of, a lot of my, my [00:29:00] previous life I did a lot of free soloing, which is roadless rock climbing. And when fear gets the better of you there, you're always trying to reframe the situation.

You're just, you know, you're not afraid, you're exhilarated and you start thinking about this wonderful place you are and what you're doing and the excitement and the adventure you're having and that. We'll get you to stop thinking about the negative outcome of falling or dying or whatever. And so I started using those tools that I had honed from my twenties in, in the extreme sports world to the non-monogamous relationship with Jane.

And I was like, okay, relationships are normal. They're good. You know, if they're too, too powerful, okay, then there's something else going on. Try and figure out where it's going. I got very introspective and I still got very calculating about it and, and once I started doing that. All of a sudden things started opening up and I started giving myself grace of, okay, if you feel jealous, let's try and figure out why.

If you're feeling, if are, are there really threats to your masculinity? If there are, maybe you're looking at the wrong markers. [00:30:00] To feel your own masculinity. Let's, let's dive deep. Let's see what's going on there. So I would encourage people than men, I guess, or women too, uh, that just when emotions come up that doesn't, that that's not a reason to, to explode outward at your partner.

That's a reason at first to be introspective and try and understand them and, and be okay with yourself for having them. Having the emotions is fine. How you behave from those emotions is where you have the control.

Fer: Mm-hmm.

Adam: Uh, and that's, and that was a critical lesson to learn.

Fer: Yeah. So tell us a little bit more about that.

What were some of the things that you had to face in doing that introspection?

Adam: Uh, yeah, that's, uh, it's the, the book I went really personal as you know, since you, you've read it, I, I really, I go into my psyche and into my childhood and try to understand and, and found a lot of baggage in my head around.

When I went through, you know, I talk about being the geeky, redheaded kid on the playground who was always teased and, [00:31:00] and always feeling like I was excluded and such. And it, it, it's funny, I've talked to my friends I grew up with and they were like, what? When, when were you ever like, teased repeatedly?

Like, I was like, and they were like, we were the ones who were teased. I was like, no. Anyway, so we had our stories in our heads of, of, of what happened when, when we were young and that was still, I found that was really still controlling a lot of. What was going on with Jane? 'cause I was still feeling like, oh, I, I have to fight to fit in.

And, and Jane's this super experienced, uh, woman in sexuality and everybody knows it. And, and who am I? So these are just the stories that were going on in my head, which obviously I wasn't. Broadcasting to anybody else. So recognizing the stories that we tell ourselves, the narratives that mm-hmm. That we play out in our head that are based on things that may or may not have happened to us

Fer: Yeah.

Adam: In our lives. Um, and that was huge. Um, the imposter syndrome that I had been battling my whole life for absolutely no reason. That was interesting to dis discover that. But then things like [00:32:00] reframing experiences, right? As I just talked about from the climbing example, if Jane was telling me a story. About her with, with another man or several men, and I started feeling those, those, those negative emotions coming up.

I would reframe it, I would go, wait a second. Let me flip it. What about a Smith? You think about the wonderful experience you had last week or two weeks ago, or think about the, the awesome friend Jane brought home the other day and, and reframing. It's like, you had a great time. It didn't affect your love for Jane.

You're not getting rid of her, so why would you have emotions around thinking that you're being replaced? Because she had this great experience with this, with this other. Men. Men or men, um, the reframing is really powerful if you can get good at it.

Fer: Yeah. That's very common, right? We know in our head. The fact that my partner goes out and have sex with other people doesn't mean that they're going to leave me.

But that doesn't mean that you don't feel it in your body. Mm-hmm. But I do think there's a lot of [00:33:00] power in repeating to yourself, this narrative is false. This is not real. It's okay for you to have those feelings, but that's, that's not real. And actually, I wanna read a quote that I thought was really interesting.

So you said it was as if I had been seeing a monster under the bed for years. And when I finally got out a flashlight and looked at it, it was just a pile of dirty clothes.

Adam: Yeah.

Fer: So yeah. Tell us more about that.

Adam: Yeah, it's, that's, that was in, in, in response to the imposter syndrome and I, that, that quote is, I believe from the Fight Club chapter when, when Jane has the foursome with her friend Sophie, who is dying.

Fer: And just for listeners who might not have read the book. So basically Jane had a friend who was dying and she wanted her to experience double penetration, right?

Adam: Well, the friend came to her and said, look, she had six months, she was given six months to live. Basically. She came to Jane and said, look, I wanna, I wanna be [00:34:00] double penetrated, uh, before I die, and I wanna see what that's like, and I wanna have a foursome with you with two guys.

And yeah. So that's, that's how that. Came about and Oh yeah, Adam's not invited.

Fer: Yeah. Yeah. And that was like kind of the trigger.

Adam: That was one of the most pivotal experiences of my life was having to manage that because I wasn't invited because Sophie and I had no, uh, physical chemistry. Like we just weren't attracted to each other.

So it wouldn't have made sense for me to be there, but that didn't mean I wasn't feeling excluded and that it sort of brought. All my insecurities and my imposter syndrome to the surface, and that whole chapter is, is kind of almost a thought experiment where I'm just raging, I know what's going on and they're having this, this experience, and Jane's not calling me and I don't know what's happening.

And then my brain starts going down the death spiral. That's a feeling I recognize really easily from all the extreme sports when your, when your brain starts [00:35:00] creating negative outcome fantasies.

Fer: Hmm.

Adam: They are incredibly powerful and they seem so real. Um, like, oh, they're probably having the best night ever.

She's gonna leave me and be with these guys, which is ridiculous. And seating and saying out loud sounds ridiculous, but at the time, the emotion that you feel around it is debilitating. So recognizing the death spiral of fear as you go down it, and also recognizing that you are reacting to a, a fantasy, a negative outcome, fantasy that that's made up.

It doesn't exist yet. It's like you have to stop yourself. So that whole experience. I tried to understand why the negative outcome fantasies were, were so strong, and that's where I dove deep into my psyche and found the imposter syndrome that I kind of always knew was there. But when I really started looking at it and asked myself really tough questions, and I think that's the hardest thing to do, is when you're in that state and you're feeling low and you're feeling alone and your emotions are raging, but asking the question, where is this really come from?

What am I actually afraid of here? So you keep going [00:36:00] down and I started, well, am I an imposter? I started going through my life and looking at all the things I had done and the people I had met and my friends and what I had done, and I was like, I'm not an imposter. That whole experience really got me an incredible amount of growth for me personally in terms of getting past a lot of these things I've been bugging me through childhood.

So that's the quote is in relation to, I had this imposter syndrome, this monster under the bed that had been controlling me for so long, and then once I really finally dove in and. And pulled the hood open and got into the engine. I was like, that's just a pile of dirty clothes. There's nothing real here.

It's why, but the, the emotion's still there. It's still there now. Mm-hmm. I just am now, I'm more educated about where it's coming from and why, and, and can push it to the side.

Fer: Right. So in that context, you felt like. You would be found out that you weren't like maybe worthy of being with Jane or something?

Exactly. Was that the, the, the imposter? Yeah. Yeah,

Adam: absolutely. I mean, it was the first time in my life as an adult I had been the sexual neophyte [00:37:00] in a relationship and I, up until meeting Jane, I had thought of my, I'm this tough masculine guy. I have great sex, I have threesomes women. Like, you know, I had this image of myself as being the powerful, knowledgeable man about sex, and then all of a sudden.

I wasn't

Fer: right, so it wasn't so much like being worthy of Jane, but more like being worthy. As a man. Absolutely. Like being absolutely masculine enough being Yeah.

Adam: It was, it's, it's, it was all those things and it's, it's, it's not black and white, right? It's, it's nuanced. There's bits and pieces of all of that, of the masculinity, of the, I'm not worthy or Someone's gonna be better than me, or am I really a man or, and I'm gonna be alone and I'm gonna lose my love.

All those things are, are mashed up in a blender and kind of bouncing around or were bouncing around in my head and from the men who have read the book. And sent, I've gotten some great emails from readers and such who Oh, yeah. Have really thanked. They're like, thank you for writing this. I, it's so nice to know.

Other people feel this too. I thought there was something wrong with me for having these thoughts, and [00:38:00] it's just nice to know that it's sort of universal. Right. There's, there's an element of this in a lot of us. I wanna say, all of us,

Fer: to have these thoughts of I'm not enough, basically.

Adam: Yeah.

Fer: Mm-hmm.

Adam: And the reality is we're not enough.

Right? I mean, it's who's enough, right? Yeah. I mean, you know that whole line. I should be, I should be enough for them. How I've had women say that to me, I should be enough for you. I'm like, well, it's you. You can't be all things to everyone. I, there was no way I was gonna be all things to Jane. I mean, especially since she was really into BDSM and that's not my, I don't really like relating on that level.

And so she wanted to have a sex life and that was never gonna be me. Uh, so she had a sex slave for a while, you know, this young boy who was absolutely the most submissive thing. And, and so, yeah, I, I wasn't enough. I couldn't be. Ever be enough and to think, well, I should be enough. Is, is a flawed way of thinking.

I, I, I feel

Fer: Yeah. That's, that's interesting. I [00:39:00] read just right before I just came across this line where you were like, and what if she actually fucked someone who's better in bed than I am? Right. Like, 'cause that's the fear.

Adam: Right?

Fer: And then you were like, well, you know, competition is good for the market.

Adam: Yeah. That's right. I have a whole thing once I find on the other side of the, of the, the, the Sophie foursome, when I'm finally, I, that's, that's sort of the, the, the, the pivot point of the book where I'm okay. I kind of get a handle on it, and now all of a sudden I'm sinking into the non-monogamy and I'm sort of enjoying it and I'm starting to really thrive, living my best life and I'm, yeah, I have this whole thing of like, well, yeah, what if someone's better than me?

Isn't. Good thing. Doesn't that strive me to be a better lover? How can I step up my game? Competition is good for the consumer.

Fer: Yeah.

Adam: But it's also good for the corporation, so to speak. Right. If, if, if it inspires me to perform better, that means that's good for her. And it's good for me too. I'm learning, I'm learning how to be a better lover.

Yeah. So, yeah. I, that, that was a big growth thing for [00:40:00] me was starting, starting to understand. That a little healthy competition is very good.

Fer: Yeah. But you know, honestly, even if you didn't try to compete, even if you were just like, oh, okay, well, she goes and has kinky sex or BDSM sex with, with some people, and I'm not like that.

I think also just being okay with that and also just being. Well, that doesn't mean that she's going to leave me, right? Like that doesn't mean that she's going to just want to be with the person that fulfills those needs. You know, that's something that Seth and I talk about, right? Like, because I'm also more like Kinky BDSM and, and he knows that like a lot of my relationships with other people are, are based on, on that.

Actually, this was a listener question when we did an interview together and, and they were like, oh, don't you feel like insecure about your sexuality, like knowing that your girlfriend has sex with other people? And he was like, you know what? No, because I feel like very [00:41:00] confident in these other ways that.

I providing to the relationship. Right. So as you said, just getting comfortable with the idea of like, yeah, I'm not enough, even though, you know, set is monogamous. I'm also not enough to fulfill his needs. He just has maybe less sexual needs, but he has other like needs that his body is like fulfill that I.

Exactly. Could never, right? Like, so it's just, yeah, getting comfortable with that idea. And I do think that, uh, in your book you really show how non-monogamy can really like, help you grow.

Adam: Non-monogamy is, is a tough thing. And I, I, you know, I think in the book I say it's a sharp knife, uh, and it can really get under your skin, um, which is a good thing.

You learn, you can learn a tremendous amount about yourself. If you're someone who struggles with things, I'm sure there are people out there who were like, oh, it's no big deal, and then they're fine. But that wasn't me.

Fer: Yeah, yeah. No, for sure. You mentioned that you were employing climbing techniques, and I know in your book you do draw that parallel, right?

Adam: [00:42:00] Mm-hmm.

Fer: And I think you've like touched on some already, but for listeners out there, what were some of those like techniques that you used, that you used on, uh, extreme sports that you applied to?

Adam: Right. Well, I mean. The first and foremost is that you don't, don't let fear control you, right? Mm-hmm. Don't let emotions get the better of you.

'cause that's from a biological, from an evolutionary standpoint, our emotions are there to protect us, run away, run away, fight or flight, right? So we're, we're kind of short circuiting that. Um, so one of the ways, certainly in, in, in sports, in extreme sports. You, you take little steps, you keep pushing you, you keep getting comfortable with the fear, you get comfortable being uncomfortable.

And that was, that was sort of the, the, the biggest thing that I brought over is this desire to exist in, in difficult environments and to manage the fear and know that my experience. We'll be better for it, right? Like I said, the, the, the journey is better because of all the fear and because of the struggle, not in spite of it.

I knew that from the [00:43:00] sports and I says, okay, let me just apply that to an intimate relationship as even a crazy wild one like this. And so that sort of started making it, okay. Then the next is the reframing or do that all the time. It's funny, the, the biggest, or not the biggest, but Chill the fuck out, is what I'm always telling myself.

Mm-hmm. When I'm starting to vibrate, I'm getting at Chill the Fuck Out. In fact, that was the original title for the book. Oh, yeah.

Fer: Which

Adam: it was Chill the Fuck Out because I, I saw, you know, as we were existing in, in the, in the non-monogamous community in New York City, in the sex parties, I saw a lot of men.

Who let emotions get the better themselves and would explode or get really angry at, at at, at things and just chill the fuck out. Like there's nothing you need to discuss today that you can't discuss tomorrow. Right. That's a huge one. It's a mantra I say to myself when I feel myself starting to get a change.

Just so I chill the fuck out, chill the fuck out. You're okay if you need to talk about this, talk about it tomorrow after you've calmed down. I talk about the climber's mindset in the book about this [00:44:00] sort of very, kind of very even keel, very chill kind of demeanor to get through difficult situations and then, and then debrief it later.

Then go back and try, okay, what happened there? Was I right to feel this way or not? And hopefully you have a partner who is, uh. Who would, who would, who would do that with you? I did not at the time.

Fer: Yeah. You know, it's so interesting that the title of the book went from Chill the Fuck Out to Seek the Risk.

Yeah. It almost sounds like it's like the opposite or something, but I think that in the process of seeking the risk and that self-growth that you experience, right, you gotta chill the fuck out. Right.

Adam: Exactly. Yeah. And just for the listeners, um, the. The full saying is, seek the risk, not the reward in life.

And, uh, but that's too long for a title. So, uh, that idea of seeking things out because they are risky, not because of the great reward you'll get on the other side. Even though obviously we, we do things because we want, we wanna achieve the goal, but by [00:45:00] saying we seek the risk, not the reward. What that means is that we're, we're going after the experience, not the outcome.

Even though, you know, we'd like a nice outcome, and that was the mentality I used to say yes to. This relationship was like, this relationship terrifies me, but I'm gonna say yes because it's probably gonna fail, fail miserably, but I may come out a better version of myself on the other side. And so that's what the seeking the risk is all about is like I'm motivated for the experience.

Fer: Yeah.

Adam: Not the goal.

Fer: Yeah. Yeah. I feel similarly that I usually tend to want to do things that scare me and challenge myself, but I also respect people who are not like that and who are like, I'm good here. And that's why I say, you know, non-monogamy is not for everyone. Mm-hmm. Because it's definitely going to test you.

It's gonna push your buttons, and if you don't want to do that work, you won't grow as much, at least in that aspect of your life. But that's fine. You know, like totally, you know, not, it's not for everyone, but I think that, um, you know, people who are venturing into non-monogamy can [00:46:00] definitely relate with that, with that mentality.

'cause it does test you and it's fun and exhilarating and sometimes really difficult. But it, it does make you grow so much, you know, from it.

Adam: Yeah. That's the central point of the book. It's not about being monogamous or non-monogamous. The central point of the book is just get outta your comfort zone wherever that.

Comfort zone is right, like my comfort zone. You know what I consider uncomfortable might be way too far for someone else, or maybe someone else is way too far for me. It doesn't matter. We only grow when we get out of our comfort zone, so it absolutely does not matter where your limit is of comfort, just.

Push yourself. Yeah. Go beyond it a little. Just, just a little bit. Stick a toe over. See how it feels. Yeah. You may decide, Ooh, I didn't like that, but at least you, you try and then maybe try it in a different way. If there was one message in the book, I'm trying to get out to people, it's like, go to the areas that are uncomfortable.

Right. Go experience something. See, see what it's like. It doesn't have to be NoMy. It can be any, it can be anything. It's how I've lived my life of. [00:47:00] Really going towards the places that are, someone called it, running towards the burning building, uh, which is a little extreme. I don't recommend that at all.

But wherever your limit is, doesn't, there's, there's, it's all arbitrary. There's nothing right or wrong. Your limit is your limit. Go past it a little bit, see what happens.

Fer: Yeah, I love that message. I think it's great. And as you said, it doesn't have to be with, with non-monogamy. Tell us where you are now in your non-monogamous journey.

We, you, you mentioned before we started recording, that you are still non-monogamous, but that you wouldn't go back to being non monogamous in the way that you were with Jane. Yeah.

Adam: I mean, if anyone looks at the chapter headings, they know we don't, uh, we're not together anymore. Uh, Jane and I, we had 10 years together and it was.

Wonderful. And it was great, and we're dear friends now. Uh, and she helped immensely with the book. She was so excited. I was writing it actually, but the level of non-monogamy that I did with her was way too much. I mean, by the end of the book, she's [00:48:00] bringing guys home while I'm in the other room working like, I don't even care anymore.

We were, we just, I had gotten so relaxed with it, but I found that it was just too, it wasn't what I, what I wanted. I didn't have enough of it. Of a one-on-one. I really like having one-on-one connections with people. Um, and I'm definitely, I've realized I'm definitely not polyamorous. I don't wanna have multiple deep, uh, emotional connections I want.

One partner. Uh, and, but some sex on the side would be great. Yeah. You know, I am, I am, uh, that, that's, that's where I've landed. I think, um, Jane was telling me that the new, the new buzzword is open monogamy, uh, which is kind of like, yeah, I wanna have a em emotionally monogamous relationship. But boy, it's really fun.

Having novel sex with a new body, a new person, and doing different things. And, and it also makes me feel it's, you can get a lot of rejuvenation from sexual relationship. I can't anyway, and it's, so I don't wanna give that up. So yeah, I'm still non-monogamous, but I, uh, I'd rather have it [00:49:00] be sort of a special treat now and again than sort of the prime directive, which is what it was with my relationship with Jane.

I mean, she was sleeping with like a hundred guys a year. Uh, so. That's, uh, that's a lot.

Fer: Yeah.

Adam: And I was sleeping with probably 25, 30 women, uh, a year, uh, which is a lot. That's, that's, I, I don't want, I, I didn't, it's too distracting. There's none. I, I have other things I wanna do with my life.

Fer: Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, no judgment for people who want to do that, no judgment.

But, you know, even for myself, I've always said I'm not polyamorous. And lately I've been in a relationship where I've been spending more time with this person. He lives in New York, so we are not seeing each other that often. But I had an experience where I was with him and I was like connecting with other people while also, you know, I have my primary partner who wasn't there.

And I did feel for the first time ever, like, oh wow, my energies are like too spread out and this doesn't feel good.

Adam: Mm-hmm.

Fer: And I truly do [00:50:00] believe you can love two people at the same time, but I'm becoming more and more aware of how energy truly is limited. And if you have a lot of like different sex with different people, different emotional connections with different people.

It does take a little bit away from your primary relationship. Right. And again, no judgment and uh, for me, you know, I actually don't know. I'm like curious if like, maybe other people truly do not feel that at all and they just have like more of an emotional bandwidth or energy bandwidth. But it's been interesting for me to explore that because.

I, I mean the, the, the title of the podcast is probably Curious, right? Like, I've always been curious about it. Again, I'm lucky that this person I'm seeing doesn't live here, so then I can truly focus on my partner where I'm here, all my energies are in that relationship, and that feels good. And then if I'm traveling and I'm seeing this other person I'm dating, then I can focus on him.

But even like the transition from going from one partner to the other, [00:51:00] it's a little bit. Like it, it takes me a moment to kind of like reconnect. Yeah. You know? And so it's been interesting to, to explore that aspect, but I like that people are starting to recognize that there's like open monogamy. Right.

Right. And I think that's also why I try to bring a variety of people to the podcast that are very poly or also that are just only wanna have threesomes together or are somewhere in between. Because I feel like we don't have that many. Examples. It's like either we're like a hundred percent poly, poly Q, kitchen table polyamory, solo poly relationship anarchy like that.

That kind of more extreme, which totally respected and I think there's like a lot of great people that find a lot of value in that and growth in that. But it's like either that or swingers and, you know, threesomes, but there's like a middle ground, right? Yeah. Like there's a middle ground that we don't talk too often about.

Adam: Yeah. And don't limit yourself. Like, yeah, like you said, it's all, however, however you want to express is, is [00:52:00] great. Just find what. Works best. And I'm at the point in my life where I really appreciate, uh, a connection with a person, but do like a little fun on the side.

Fer: Yeah, yeah, exactly. But yeah, you had to go through the process to figure that out.

Adam: Yeah. But, and, and that's what's. There's a point in the book where I'm, I'm very clear that if I'm gonna say no to the relationship with Jane, I wanna say no because I've decided that's not the relationship I want. I don't want to be saying no, 'cause I'm afraid of finding out. So if you're gonna, like, now I know I don't want that.

And it's not because anything wrong with it, it's just I tried it and it doesn't return to me the, the things that I, that I want out of a relationship.

Fer: Yeah. And I love that you guys are still friends that. She read the book that, um, you know, she recognizes the things that she could have done better.

Adam: Mm-hmm.

Fer: And, and you too. But you also recognize the ways in which you could have done better. Like, I like that you painted her in the book as a complex human, really awesome [00:53:00] human. But that, you know, you, you maintain that relationship and that you weren't like, it doesn't work for me. Then like, fuck non-monogamy, fuck her.

Like, that's not for me. You know, which is a reaction that some other people might have had, you know?

Adam: Yeah. It's funny you say about the painting her as a complex, uh, person. I, I've had a number of, I'm surprised at how many women have read the book actually. 'cause I totally wrote it with young men in mind.

But based on the stats that I've been seeing, it's, it's. Almost equal number of men and women, and the women readers who I've spoken to have all said that about, they really appreciated how there was no judgment about Jane at any point in the book. There was just representing her as a complex person who is real and, and, and very tangible.

Uh, so it's, I'm glad to hear you say that too. It's, it's affirming for me that I, at least I did an okay job.

Fer: So, Adam, thank you so much for everything you've shared. So my, my last question for you is, what would you tell to a poly curious person? Maybe a poly curious man, I don't know who's [00:54:00] struggling with the things that you struggle with years ago?

Adam: There's a line in the book where I say, you know, at, at the end of the whole thing, I. I say I, I really wouldn't recommend non-monogamy to anyone, but I really wouldn't recommend monogamy either. Uh, it's a question of what problems you're gonna have. So the first thing I would say is, listen, you're gonna have issues.

This, this is not a, this is not a, a, a way to eliminate the issues of relationships. It's just a different set of issues. So accept that you're gonna have issues and take it slow and, uh. Push yourself little by little. Hopefully you have a partner who's, who's on the journey with you that is, uh, appreciative of the fact that you are pushing yourself because it's important.

Jane never knew the extent of what I was going through 'cause I kept it hidden. Uh, for better or worse, that's the way it did. And when she did find out, when I was writing the book, she was really appreciative of the fact that I was pushing myself so much at the time. So if you're someone, if you're a guy out there and you're trying to, to get into [00:55:00] a, a.

If you're poly curious, you're, you're exploring with non-monogamy, you know, be upfront with self that this is really hard and that you are pushing yourself, and that when negative things come up, it's okay. And start trying to just be, go to the uncomfortable places and see what it feels like. And don't chill the, chill the fuck out.

Don't explode. Like you're gonna, you're gonna go eventually. I mean, there's a one scene in the book where I go too far and it's too much and I have to pull it back and, and we had a rule that we relaxed and then we. We, I, I stepped over the line. We checked it out. I was like, no, I did not like that. And we had to pull it back.

So as long as you're okay, um, going someplace and finding out, oh, I, I didn't like that. And then pulling it back to a place you do like, then that's, that's what the journey is. The journey is getting outta your comfort zone, pushing yourself a little bit, trying to find out where emotions are coming from and, and have fun.

This is, I mean, life is fun. Life's of an adventure. Life should be a daring adventure. Uh, I think, uh, and whether or not a daring adventure should be an adventure, just, yeah. Go, go [00:56:00] get out, play around with it a little bit.

Fer: Yeah. Yeah. And as you said, it is not like you can't go back if it doesn't work out.

Right. Right. And I remind people of that you can decide, okay, we're gonna do this, we're gonna try it, and then if it doesn't work, you can pull back. Right. And And I think even Jane who wasn't very available for your emotional processing was okay pulling things back as long as you tried it. Right. Exactly.

And I think sometimes that's what. Your partner wants, just try it. It doesn't mean that you, you can't go back

Adam: and, and be upfront with your partners. Like, okay, we'll try this, this is a, I'm pushing myself and, and in a, in an ideal situation, your partner should be very, very appreciative of, you know, of, of you pushing yourself.

Now that doesn't mean you, you do things that are totally. Against who you are as a person, but you know, little baby steps.

Fer: Yeah, exactly.

Adam: Yeah.

Fer: Well, thank you so much, Adam. Is there anything else that you wanted to talk about that we didn't cover or anything?

Adam: Um, no, that's, that's, I mean, that was a pretty good interview.

Yeah, I like that. I mean, [00:57:00] people can get the book@seektherisk.net and it's available in audiobook, paperback, and Kindle. And you can reach me at Adam at Seek the Risk. And I, I answer all emails. Uh, I love hearing from people, so please, please do reach out. Yeah.

Fer: Yeah, and we'll, we'll include all of that in the show notes.

Jane actually narrates the parts of the audio book of her blog,

Adam: correct? Yeah. We had a lot of fun recording the audio book. Uh uh. It's me, it's myself reading most of the book, but there's a number of, there's a number of conversations that happened with Jane that she came into the studio with me and we read that, and then there's a lot of Jane's blog posts that I included.

Just as, as, as context for the whole relationship that she comes in and reads as well. So you get both of us on the, on the, on the audio.

Fer: Love it. Well, people should definitely go and check it out. I definitely enjoyed reading your book, so thank you so much for coming too. Thank,

Adam: thank you for having me.

It's wonderful.