Fer: [00:00:00] I'm not gonna assume that because the fireplace thing happened or, or you didn't do this thing that you said you were gonna do or whatever, that you are unreliable. And I like recognize that that was my own insecurities and we talked about this. Yesterday while on acid while I was crying, but, but, um, you know, it ha What did

John: make you cry?

Just for the record

Fer: there. Well, you, you did in the best of ways.

Hi everyone. Welcome to Polycurious. I'm so happy to be back after the summer break. And today I have a special episode because I'm talking to one of my partners, John, if you're new to the podcast, I have a primary partner called Seth, and most recently a secondary partner called John. And this is actually this.

Second part of our conversation. In the first part, we talk about John's journey [00:01:00] into non-monogamy and the lessons he's learned from it. And if you want to check out that first part, you can subscribe to my Patreon. You'll find the link in the show notes. But this second part is all about my relationship with him and the.

Ups and downs that we've gone through, the lessons that we've both learned and how we're each learning about ourselves through our relationship and what we're learning from each other. And if you want even more detail into how we became partners and how I overcame my resistance to being polyamorous, you can listen to, uh, my episode on Patreon.

It's called How I Went From Polycurious to Poly. Part one, it is free if you become a free member, and part two is only for paid members. So check that out if you're curious about going deeper into some of what we talk about today. But the reason I wanted to have John on the [00:02:00] podcast was because I feel like becoming more intimate with someone besides Seth, has come with a lot of lessons, and I think a big one for me is that.

A lot of the things that we resent our partners for, or that we expect from our partners are often actually things that we need to work on or that we resent ourselves for. And I think for me with John, given that my relationship with him has revolved a lot around being exploratory and taking risks, and also given that he's a very, very different person from Seth.

What I came to realize as I came to accept John for who he is, is that even though there are ways in which, yes, John is learning to show up for me in the ways that I need, at the same time, most of that work of feeling safe is work that I need to be [00:03:00] doing within myself. So then instead of expecting. Him to be the responsible person, I need to be responsible in my dynamic with him in a way that I might not have to be with Seth.

Because in my dynamic with Seth, he's the one who, for example, wants to follow the rules all the time, and I'm the one who pushes him to be a little bit more spontaneous. But because John is as crazy as I am in my relationship with him, I have to show up differently. So. I think a lot of this episode for me is about what happens when you compare partners, how you show up differently in each partnership, and how polyamory can actually be a great opportunity to examine yourself and grow as a person.

I know everyone's poly journey is different, and I've had a ton of different stories in the podcast, and I just wanted to also share my poly story with all of you, so I hope that you learn from [00:04:00] it. I hope that this helps you. In your particular journey, and if what you hear today resonates with you, make sure to share this episode with your partner, with a friend, or maybe even with a family member.

Okay, guys, here is my interview with my partner, John. Okay. Let's talk about our relationship.

Oh,

John: right.

Fer: Yeah. I'm not sure where to start, but I guess from the beginning. So. I met you through Iris. Mm-hmm. Who's a friend.

John: Yeah.

Fer: And I feel like we both like, just really liked each other and, you know, felt some level of attraction, but I knew that you and Iris were like figuring it out.

Like she had shared some things with me about your relationship with her, so I was not thinking that, you know, anything would come off our attraction, which I wasn't even like, sure. If you also felt. Eventually we reconnected. I [00:05:00] had already left New York by that point, so I think the first times that we interacted, I thought it was just a physical attraction.

And then I think we went on a date and I was like, oh, actually there's more here than I thought it would be. Ever since we've been seeing each other in different places, be it in Mexico or in. Denver in New York, and it's been already over a year. But yeah, you know, I think where I was coming from was from a place of having had a lot of flinks, but also having had a break realizing that I was seeking validation from men and wanting to step back from it and focusing on my friendships and wanting to live in New York from a more conscious place.

But before that, I had a few flings. With people or relationships with people that didn't last. A handful in the few years that I've been [00:06:00] non-monogamous, and I think that created. Some fear in me because these relationships would either end because the other person would find someone to be monogamous with or because I wanted to move on, and I think I learned from my desire to move on to the next shiny person that I'm a novelty seeker, and then I just assumed that that was part of my personality and that I would just.

Not get bored, but desire to use my energy annotation on someone else. And because I'm not someone that generally likes to date too many people at the same time, besides obviously, you know, Seth and you know, maybe one other person, then I would break up with those people. Or again, those people would find a, a monogamous partner.

And what was hard for me wasn't that they found a monogamous partner, but that. They weren't graceful about it, and I felt like they stopped treating me as a friend and all these things. So I came with this preconception of [00:07:00] I am a mono novelty seeker, and also if I date single men, they'll probably find a monogamous person and their relationship will eventually end.

So I wanted to keep things casual and also because I've been so disappointed so many times, I didn't want. My feelings to overtake me like they had before because they would. The relationships would end and then I would be heartbroken. And as you know, I took it very casual at first or tried to take it very casual and I, I wasn't looking for a partnership, but I think that was giving you the idea that I was avoiding, recognizing that we were more than just.

Friends with benefits, and I was still kind of in my head, I was still being like, no, we're friends with benefits. And I think you were at some point came to say like, Hey, come on. This is not just friends with benefits. Yeah. But because of those fears that I had, I think I [00:08:00] was very hesitant. And then when I finally was feeling like I was comfortable to give into our relationship.

The fireplace incident. The fireplace incident happened.

John: Notorious Fireplace.

Fer: Yeah. Why? Why don't you talk about that.

John: So this was after a, a party that we had gone to together and. You were in town and

Fer: in New York.

John: In New York, and we were gonna spend some time together. And so I came to sleepover and. It was your friend's apartment.

It was a nice apartment in Brooklyn. And it's funny you tell this 'cause your mom said, oh, don't destroy your friend's apartment.

Fer: Yeah. It's crazy. My mom has powers

John: premonition.

Fer: Yeah. She texted me that day out of nowhere. Don't destroy your friend's apartment. Ha ha ha. [00:09:00] You know, and I'm. What the fuck? Like, mom, why would you, why on earth would you think I would destroy my friend's apartment?

Like, who do you think I am?

John: Yeah.

Fer: And then,

John: well, we're both fans of cannabis, which of course is legal in New York. And so there was a fireplace and, and even though you're friends that said, don't operate the fireplace without. Asking us, we're interested in doing so, and I've built a million fires and I felt very confident, not just my ability to build a fire and maintain it, but I've built a million fires in fireplaces and the only thing that ever needs to be done is opening the flu.

And so I presume that the flu was in the closed position 'cause it was the winter and. Like, why would you keep, the whole point is you keep the flu closed and then you open it when you go to use it. So I couldn't see up the flu and I ended up closing the flu, like reversing it. So it was already open and I ended up closing it, um, which wasn't intuitive, but I wasn't, I didn't have all my faculties and I [00:10:00] was eager to get back to hanging out, which is another lesson.

Same lesson, slow down. So I start the fire and. Of course the smoke is now not going up a chimney, but it is invading the entire apartment and fire alarms going off and it's late at night and the super lives in the building and you don't even live in the building. And we have to open all the windows and yeah, it was just a mess.

And eventually we get it under control. The apartment's smokey, but whatever. We have a great night and then the next morning. We wake up, there's very noticeable soot damage above the fireplace and on the ceiling, and obviously that's a massive problem. And Seth was coming soon, like within two days. I think and I needed to work.

You needed to work. I had needed to go home,

Fer: said my primary partner.

John: Yeah. [00:11:00] And so we didn't wanna leave this for, for him to have to clean up for obvious reasons. And, and, you know, you obviously wanted help on this as, as, as a course I was the main culprit here. If I had just done the lou, the right, the, the flu, the right in the first place, we wouldn't have had this problem.

And so. You know, I came over, I, I stopped at multiple Home Depots to try to get stuff to clean it and spent hours trying to scrub it, but it, it just wasn't coming off. Like I could tell it was better, but it was still so damaged and it was taking forever, and it was stressful for both of us. And I think the number one problem, which is something that.

I've learned to work on is and I, I think a problem that a lot of men have, which is just taking accountability right away and just apologizing and just being like, Hey, sorry I fucked this up and we wouldn't be in this position if I didn't, and I'm sorry it's causing you stress and let me take care of this.

And even though I was attempting to take care of it, you not hearing an [00:12:00] apology and full responsibility was obviously putting a wedge between us and making you feel uneasy. And at the same time, you're so used to being treated by Seth in a certain way and, and him being amazing at apologizing and taking responsibility right away.

I think that the, the details are less important than the fact that one less an all men. It's not only okay. To apologize and to own up for what you did wrong. Women don't expect you to be perfect. They don't expect you to be someone who never falls down. What they do expect is for you to have the wherewithal to recognize when you have made a mistake and just simply look them in the eyes and say, I'm sorry, and.

Not to make excuses and to let them know that they're safe in knowing that you [00:13:00] will work on yourself and that you're gonna endeavor not to let this happen again. And it's a, I think it's a core wounding for men. Men have this need to feel and be seen as competent, especially by. Women that they, they are in romantic relationship with, and so there's this subconscious fear that if we recognize that we made a mistake, that that diminishes us in your eyes.

Fer: Mm-hmm.

John: And that then there's a fear that you won't respect us or that you will judge us. Or that you will leave us.

Fer: Yeah, and the interesting thing that is that it's, it's quite the opposite, right? When people mid fold,

John: right?

Fer: You respect them more. Right. But yeah, so that happened and then I think what was, what was difficult for me was that even though we mostly fixed it, so we eventually found a bucket of paint and we painted, but turned out that the color of the wall was different than the color from the [00:14:00] ceiling.

And you could see that we had painted the ceiling. So it was like crazy 'cause we were painting literally like a minute before set, gets into the apartment and then you're like, oh, ris, ris. Stay and say hi. And I'm like so mad. I'm like, no, just get out.

No, I didn't act like that. I was pretty trying to be composed, but um. Yeah. Anyhow, so you left Seth arrives two minutes later and it was late at night, so we didn't really see, but then the next morning turned out that we still needed to paint the, the ceiling at different colors. So set at night and went and got three different types of paint and none of the colors were right.

And then we spent the whole day mixing different colors and trying to get the. Shade ride. And I think I had come to that trip with the intention of being grounded. Yeah. And I was there [00:15:00] just for like a short time. Seth was only there for like a weekend and it felt like this paint thing like took over.

Half of my trip and half of that's trip. So I was really activated by it. And also, and, but mostly as you said, because you hadn't apologized. Because if you, if you had, I wouldn't have been upset, but I, I was like upset 'cause you hadn't apologized. So then moving through the motions of trying to fix this, which took like three days or something.

Was difficult and then said, got there. And even though obviously it wasn't his mistake, I felt safe in a way that I hadn't felt with you because you didn't apologize for it. So that kind of made me pull back from. Wanting to talk to you about partnership and like wanting to engage with you in a deeper way.

But, you know, it's also like my stuff, right? So my insecurities about trusting men and me having guilt about not stopping you when you said, oh, I, I can do the fire. And, and knowing [00:16:00] that I should have waited for my friend to reply. We did ask her, but she was taking a long time and not listening to my intuition and just trusting you.

And I've had a long journey of. Finding myself in unsafe situations and having to learn that I can't trust men. So all of that was coming up for me too. And you know, eventually I talked to you and we resolved it. And ever since you've taken accountability and apologized, and even when we talked about it, you recognize that that's something that can be hard for you.

But I think that because that had happened in my head, I, I made this association of for me to feel safe, I need a Seth.

John: Mm.

Fer: I need someone that makes me feel like Seth. Because Seth would've never started the fire without the instruction if that's what was supposed to be done. And that's why I'm with you too, because I want someone that [00:17:00] I can just be.

Not following the rules with, you know, like we're like partners in crime, which is super fun.

John: Yeah.

Fer: But then that also means that I'm more at risk and the next time we saw each other. Which was Candelaria, right? It's a festival in Mexico that we went to. I think I, I had come a little bit like curious of how this was going to go because it was the first time I had ever gone on a trip with someone other than said, like, as a couple.

In a way wanting the validation of, okay, this is someone, save someone I can trust. I want this partnership. And in another way, having like a confirmation bias of just seeing all the ways in which you weren't like said and assuming that that's what I needed from a partnership. And you know, I communicated it to you.

That I wasn't feeling safe and that I needed you to step up. And I think, and I'm curious to hear your part, but I think that you took it as, [00:18:00] okay, she wants me to take care of things for her. And what I was really trying to express is yes. One, I want you to take accountability, but also I want you to follow up on your word.

When I got there, I was late after my flight had been delayed, so I had missed the beach party. And you were at the beach party. You said you were gonna be on time and then you were 20 minutes late after I was just like exhausted and had to wait outside of the Airbnb. So like it already started off in like a bad, you know, because I, again, I that like, I was already like looking for proof of can I trust this person, can I not?

And like it already like started there, right? So then it became like every single little thing, I was like, oh, this means that I cannot. Trust him or whatever. So I talked to you about it, but I think I also had that standard of this Seth who's like always on time, hyper responsible person, [00:19:00] and because you are not like Seth, whatever, in whatever ways you wouldn't act like him, then I would take it as confirmation of like, I cannot be a partner.

With, with him, you know, but also like by telling you and expressing that I put pressure on you. So then you were acting from a place of, of insecurity and of like wanting to prove yourself, and then it became like a self-fulfilling prophecy because you were acting from that place. Things weren't like in flow and authentic and I was just like getting annoyed.

Not something that I'm proud of, but being like, he's doing some things, but he's not doing the thing that I want.

John: Yeah.

Fer: That's kind of, I feel, the dynamic that we were at. But yeah. What, what is your experience of, of that? And then we can continue the story.

John: Yeah. Well, I think you hit on also a lot of meta topics about relationships.

One is that you're always gonna need to work through things. There's no way that you're never gonna come to. Uh, a disagreement [00:20:00] or where one person wants something and the other person wants something different, or an expectation is missed, and it's, it's really about the repair and it's hard to repair when you're holding things back from the other.

And so you holding back from me this inner conflict around whether you felt like I was safe to trust or whether or not. I was living up to a standard that you would put on me without sharing what it was. Those unspoken contracts get in the way of being present. It gets in the way of connection.

Fer: But that you don't think that I was expressing it.

John: It's not that you weren't expressing it. I I don't think you were expressing it to the, the same level of detail as you were experiencing it, and that after getting. Your entire perspective and understanding your history, it was able [00:21:00] to click for me why this was so important for you and which made it easier for them for me to show up in that way.

And also this is something that I've gotten feedback from from other partners where they're like, you are amazing in so many ways, and you go outta your way in these great ways and thank you, and I would really just love for you to do the damn thing I am asking you to do. And so that's the work I need to do where, because I'm afraid of disappointing, I can feel like a perfectionist, and then I can avoid the thing that I'm being asked because I'm so worried about screwing it up and disappointing them, that as you said, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy and I either don't do it or I do it poorly.

And it induces, of course, the thing that I'm afraid of, which is disappointing my partner. And so, because we were more than just friends with benefits and we shared intimacy and connection, we [00:22:00] were bringing up things and we were triggering the other person. And I'm really proud of how we both stayed committed to being open.

Emotionally with each other. And instead of closing up, which I've done many times in other relationships, I would just voice to you and say, Hey, I'm feeling really unsafe and I feel like I am closing up emotionally and I don't want to do that. And you do a really wonderful job of staying calm and of feeling your feelings without projecting them or hurling them at me of speaking your truth while leaving.

Open the possibility that it's not the whole truth and that there's my side and there's a lot of contributing factors. We actually have a very healthy way of relating, very transparent, a willingness to see the other person without judgment [00:23:00] of notice where we are being triggered and how that's creating the dynamic.

We don't want. Really trying to just hear the person and, and understand them and hold them in it and not need to fix them, and not need to move them on from it and be a safe space for them to process without it needing to be a multi-hour overprocessing thing. And so, yeah, I'm very grateful to be able to have that dynamic with us.

Fer: Mm-hmm. Yeah. You know, it's very interesting because, and, and this is something that we've talked about too, I know that we haven't, well, I mean, no, we did spend one time, we did spend hours processing something, but outside of that time at Candelaria. But,

John: but that, that was a unique, very unique circumstance, I think.

Fer: Right. But my point is that. You know, with the exception of that, like we resolve problems relatively quickly, and I think that the more we get to know [00:24:00] each other, the easier it becomes, but also because. This is something that we've talked about because in my relationship with Seth, there's very minimal conflict.

This actually feels like a lot of emotionally processing for me, but then you compare to your relationships with other women and you're like, this is, this is nothing but. What's been interesting for me is that I first saw that as a cause of concern of why am I spending time processing and why am I fighting or butting heads?

Not that we like fight all the time or anything, but like we've had. Misunderstanding, disagreements, those things. And I don't have that much of that, which said, obviously we have it every once in a while, but not as often. So I just thought that, oh, why would I be doing this with someone who's not even my, my primary?

Yeah. When I have like a primary, I don't really fight with much. And what I've come to [00:25:00] realize this, this weekend is that it's been really worth it, you know, because with the. Processing, or however you want to call it, comes a lot of growth, you know, and, and I feel like you are very down to work through things and to have conversations and to be exploratory in many ways that I'm not with Seth.

And that's good. 'cause then things can be lighter in a way with Sev and that's fine. But that the fact that our dynamic is different doesn't mean that it's. It is not worth it. Or that there's like, there's also a lot of value in having a dynamic where there's a lot more of intensity.

John: That's the word. That's the I've, I've been told by. Most, if not all, my partners, that I'm a very intense person, which I'm aware of.

Fer: Well, you know, you've said that a few times already. And, and yes, you are intense, but not, not in the way [00:26:00] that the sound of a very intense person might make people. Think that you are like, you know, like you are very, you're a very pleasant person.

John: Oh, thank you. No, I, I mean, I'm also very goofy and lighthearted and I'm silly and I don't take everything very seriously, but I just, I have a lot of IV and, and, and zest and enthusiasm and, and I can let myself get caught up in things and I can be emotional and. Yeah, so I, I understand, and I, I've also been told I'm, I'm very triggering in that way too because of that intensity and, and my rawness and my desire to feel deeply and to experience.

And I, you know, I think one of the things you mentioned was. Ever since we sort of transitioned from okay, we're [00:27:00] just friends with benefits to, oh, like we actually have something deeper and it's great to connect on this level and it's worth investing in this, even though there could be challenges because there we get so much out of it.

And actually like a lot of what we were drawn to in each other was not that at first. It was attraction and excitement and novelty and partying and like sort of hedonism.

Fer: Yeah.

John: Right.

Fer: Six.

John: Right, right. And the other thing is like we think we're fairly selective, where we've gotten fairly selective about who it is that we spent time with and that it needs to be a lot more than attraction.

Or even just connection to make it worth us investing.

Fer: Mm-hmm.

John: And I think that, you know, I'm of the belief that I think at its core relationships for [00:28:00] me is I'm in this relationship for my own personal growth.

Fer: Mm-hmm.

John: And I view that as a, as a selfless way of, of interacting. And if I am growing through my interactions with you, then not only am I better for me.

But I'm a better person moving throughout the world, and I can do more, and I can move through things without causing harm. And so if I'm growing, I can then show up in ways that are safer for you and more fulfilling for you. And so that's why I really appreciate that we've stuck through difficulties and said we're getting so much out of this, both in enjoyment and growth that the disagreements, the misunderstandings are well worth.

Fer: Mm-hmm. So maybe we should get a little bit more specific about like what we're each working on. Okay. And, you know, for that reason, I will finish [00:29:00] the story of, you know, when I was like putting that pressure on you and telling you I don't feel safe. And then you were trying to make up for that in ways that didn't feel like what I needed in that moment.

And then I think before we left that trip, there were two conclusions. One of them being that I needed to be more, more mindful of you because I had acted with other people in ways that had made you feel uncomfortable. And the other thing was that you were going to continue trying to. Make me feel safe.

And I think what was interesting is that I came back from the trip and then I talked to Seth about it and he was like, babe, you are being too hard on John. That's not who he is. We're different people. And I was like, oh, I think he's right. So then, you know, I talked to you and then. I told you that I'm not going to put unfair [00:30:00] expectations on you.

I'm not gonna assume that because the fireplace thing happened or, or you didn't do this thing that you said you were gonna do or whatever, that you are unreliable. And I like recognized that that was my own insecurities, and we talked about this. Yesterday while on acid while I was crying. But, but, um, you know, it, what did make

John: you cry for the record?

Fer: Well, you, you did in the best of ways. You, you asked me a question, but we were talking about how my upbringing, you know, my dad didn't contribute financially and I was mostly okay with that. But then when we actually needed the money. And I asked my dad for it, and he still didn't help my sister and I and, and my mom out, you know, I felt like I was abandoned and like he wasn't reliable.

And I recognize now, now that a lot of the safety that I look in men is because of that. And I've been [00:31:00] working on finding that safety within myself. So I think one of the things that our relationship is helping me to do. Is that I need to find that safety, even if you are not making me feel safe. You know?

And, and it's not that you're not making me feel safe because you're a non reliable, irresponsible person, but I didn't feel as safe with you as I felt with Seth because Seth is just like hyper responsible and that also. Causes friction in our relationship that I want him to be more spontaneous or I want him to party more, or I want him to not always have to fucking have a plan.

And with you, it's wonderful that we don't have to do that, but then I'm the one who has to be like. Like last night, I'm like, it's 11:00 PM we haven't had dinner and I have a 9:00 AM meeting tomorrow. You know? So for me it's like that practice of feeling safe within myself. And the other [00:32:00] side of it is being more mindful and careful of how I approach my feedback to other people.

Because what I realize is that. As we talked about, I was telling you, oh, you better show up, you better be more responsible, whatever. But I was also kind of telling you, if not, who knows if we're going to continue together. So it came from a place of not making you feel safe either. Yeah. Or it didn't come from a place, from from wanting that, but that was a result.

So. Something that I constantly am also working with, with the coaching that I do and, and my clients is to, instead of just telling them what to do,

John: mm,

Fer: giving them the space to feel safe and to be, be themselves. And I was not giving you any reassurance.

John: Yeah,

Fer: because I was having all those fears about I was not being able to be partners because you weren't safe enough.

And then would that mean that we would break up? So [00:33:00] then I don't want to get too close because. This could end at any moment. Yeah, so I think that. I don't get to practice with said that much. I do, like sometimes said is like, you shouldn't say things that way. You know, as I'm sure listeners have, have noticed, I'm like very direct and sometimes things don't come out in the right way and sometimes I, I don't think about how the person is gonna hear them, and I just think about what I'm trying to express.

So I definitely have moments like that with set, but I think that. Seth has like a thicker skin or less, is less reactive to those things. And I think because of what we've talked about of the, you know, abandon abandonment issues and vulnerabilities that you have, I need to be more careful about how I.

Communicate with you and, and with everyone.

John: Mm-hmm.

Fer: But I feel like being with you and knowing that you will only feel comfortable to step up and act in the ways that I, I want you to act. And [00:34:00] also I know you want yourself to act is by giving you reassurance and making you feel safe. And I was having a lot of issues doing that because I was like, you need to make me feel safe for me to give you reassurance.

And you were like, you need to give me reassurance for me too. Yeah. Do the things to make you feel safe. Yeah. And we were kind of in this loop. Yeah. And you know, we eventually resolved it. And I think this weekend we got a lot of clarity around that as well. But I think the lesson that I've learned also, besides those two things I just mentioned that I'm working on with you, is that people are different and partners are different and that.

Instead of trying to focus on the ways in which you are not making me feel safe in the ways that said is making me feel safe. It's like, why don't I just like see you for who you are and find ways to feel safe that are not dependent just on you, but that also are dependent on how I show up. And by the way, [00:35:00] like it's also the other way around.

Like I have also compared Seth with you and with other partners and I've had to. Come back to remembering that he's not like that. And I had gone through that process before I met. I met you because I had had other partners that were also kinky or exploratory. And then I would go back and. Have sex with Seth and then compare, you know, so it, it, it's always been interesting because in a way having sex with other people makes me more horny and makes me more excited about having sex with Seth and, and makes the sex better.

But it also sometimes makes me feel like, oh, the standard is something else. And then I go back to my relationship. And again, I say this all the time 'cause I wanna be very clear that. Seth and I have great sex is just not as exploratory as a stinky. So then when I go and do that with other people, then it's very easy to come back and like compare.

But I had already gone through that process before, so I wasn't doing that. And it's [00:36:00] still a practice. I still have to like remind myself of that so I can like stay connected to Seth and I can stay connected to, to you or whoever I'm dating at the time. But I hadn't gone through that process. With you.

Like I, I hadn't gone through that process of like realizing that you are also different from set. Just that set is different from the people that mm-hmm. That I date. So, you know, for listeners out there, I think that's, that's. One of the lessons, just take your partners for who they are, and instead of expecting them to make you feel a certain way, just ask yourself if that's something that maybe you need in yourself.

And, and again, the being safe is something that within myself is something that I've been working on. And. Because I felt like you weren't giving me that then I was projecting on you. But those were things that I need to work on. So that's the beauty of polyamory, I guess. Even though I've been so resistant to say that I'm poly, but okay, whatever.

Here we are. It happened, you know, that you get to experience different people and you get to grow in [00:37:00] different ways. I mean, as cliches, it sounds, but I feel like it's been so true for me with my relationship with you, I feel like. I get to do so many things that I don't get to do with Seth and the other way around.

Right. And I get to see the, the two personalities, experience two, two ways to be loved and to be desired. And it's so beautiful if you are able to let go of the comparison and just be present.

John: Yeah. Yeah. One of my famous round US quotes is.

Fer: You are famous.

John: My favorite.

Fer: Oh, your favorite, my favorite.

John: That's course is you, you look at a tree and you see that it's, it's bent in this sort of, you know, complex way.

Maybe a 90 degree angle, and some of the branches don't have leaves. Um, and, and the trunk is a little, I don't know, not pleasant to look at. It doesn't look like the rest of the [00:38:00] trees. And you don't look at the tree and say, oh, that's a bad tree. You just recognize that it grew that way because that's the way it had to grow to get access to light, and that's the way it needed to grow, to get access to water.

And yet when we look at people, instead of looking at them and saying, oh, they're, they're like that. They're in their own unique way because of their own lived experience, and how can I appreciate this person for who they are? Now it's easy to say, this is not good enough. This is not what I want. And there's a fine line because not everybody's for you, not every, you're not supposed to be in a romantic or primary partnership with everybody.

There's very few people actually in the world that will line up with you in that way. And so knowing yourself and knowing what it is, and you need in a partner, knowing what your boundaries are and what your desires are. Being able to communicate them [00:39:00] clearly and consistently having your words match up with your actions.

It all requires a ton of inner work and patience and trial and error, and you and I have had a lot of trial and error with other people and with each other, and so coming to this place where we're at, where we could be in deep appreciation for. The individual nature of the person sitting across from us and appreciating them for all that they are and not needing them to be different than that.

Being an acceptance. And then recognizing that no one person, whether you're polyamorous or not, whether you're you're monogamous, no one person is ever gonna fulfill all of your needs. And the expectation that they should is going to set you up for so much disappointment and set both of you up for so much pain.

And so it's all a yes, and it's yes, [00:40:00] Fer. I love that you are working on feeling safe within yourself and if you're gonna be in an intimate partner relationship with someone. You also need them to provide a certain level of safety and finding out where that line is, is idiosyncratic to an individual and the partnership.

And as much as you do the inner work and the introspection, the only way you're gonna really find out is by trying. And by being reflective and willing to change your mind about things, and so I really admire that about you, your open-mindedness, your ongoing willingness to discover more about you and be curious about yourself and your ongoing desires.

We don't know how long our relationship in this format will last. [00:41:00] And at first when you communicated that as you admitted it, it did come from this place of fear of having been disappointed in the past and not wanting to spend all this energy processing if who knows how long it's gonna last. But even now, when we're like, okay, this is worth pursuing and putting energy into, there is this very present focused element to our relationship.

Because, and I, I love how supportive you've been of me in saying, I want you to have a primary partner. I I, you have such a beautiful relationship with Seth and you're like, I want you to have that same feeling and I too consider myself, you know, it's funny 'cause you, you've gone through your journey of poly curious and now you didn't want another relationship and now we're in a relationship and like, I don't, I don't know what configuration I'll have indefinitely.

So releasing our need to put [00:42:00] labels on everything and project out indefinitely and to say, this is who I am. This is who I'm always gonna be. Instead, we are allowing each other to show up as our authentic selves right now, and we get to plan for the future knowing that I. We are gonna change and our dynamic will change and, and however it changes, we will hold each other softly and gently and with love.

Fer: Mm-hmm. Yeah, and I think that, as you alluded to, the fact that I have a primary also. Helps making our connection to just be about the present moment because I. I think that, you know, in the past relationships that you've been in all of those situations, one person in the partnership wanted to be primaries and the other person didn't, and [00:43:00] we're in a dynamic where we know that's off the table.

So then there's no, there's still fears of descending and insecurities and things, but there's no push and pull in that way because we were very clear, and I've found that it's really. Amazing. 'cause there it takes a lot of the pressure off and we can just be ourselves. But you didn't answer my question of what, oh, I'm sorry.

What? What you are, uh, what you're working on in our relationship.

John: In our relationship, in our relationship. Well one is continuing to be emotionally vulnerable and, you know, in the, in the past there's, I think that the trope is that women want men to open up. Emotionally and men have been socialized not to seen as weak.

It's seen as feminine, and I do, I am someone who's I think, deeply in touch with his emotions. I, I cry quite often. I express joy and gratitude and the whole range [00:44:00] of the human emotions. And yet through socialization and through my own trauma, where I've opened up before. Really let my guard down and been honest.

And it hasn't always been held by my romantic partner and it hasn't always been viewed with compassion and sometimes it's been weaponized against me. And so there's this fear that that will happen again. And I think this weekend we've made a lot of progress on that. And like I said, just me being able to say, Hey, I am feeling unsafe, and I'm feeling like closing up.

And I don't wanna do that. And that one just allows me to feel seen and lightens the load. And two, allows you to then step into this place of compassion and recognition that I want to be here with you in something and that I'm experiencing difficulty. And it helps you figure out [00:45:00] how to. Show up in a way that's gonna support that I am working on not people pleasing, which is something I've, I've been working on for a while.

But I think finally making progress on because of, like you said, my, our, sure there's, there's fear of losing each other, but we're actively working on allowing each other to be who we are in the moment. Being accepting and saying, like, as you said, what I need you to do is just do what you say you're going to do and, and if you can't do it, that's okay.

Don't people please me and by you reassuring me that you care about me and that our relationship matters and that yes, I'm bringing up something that I would like to talk about, but it's not the end of the world and you're not a bad person. You, and this is worth the effort, has been very healing for me.

I mean, there's other stuff I'm working on.

Fer: Sure. Appreciate that. Right. [00:46:00] No, that's pretty good. That's pretty good. Good boy, thank, thank you. Thank you for sharing. Um, yeah, and just to give a little bit more context about the first point, the vulnerability aspect. I think there had been a couple of times in our relationship where I've just, 'cause I'm very.

Aware of what I want and I'm very vocal about it, so I just be like, I need you to make me safe. I need this, I need that, I need that. And you would, you would just like take it and like try to do those things for me and then. When we had that disagreement at Candelaria, all of a sudden you started telling me things that I didn't even know that were like going on with you.

And there's been a couple of times where I'm like, but why didn't you tell me from the beginning? You know? And I think it's what, what you talked about, that you haven't been told to be vulnerable. Your vulnerability has been weaponized before. But ultimately. It like kind [00:47:00] of backlashes because you keep it in, you keep it in, you keep it in, and then it comes out in other ways.

But again, then my work is also to give you the space to feel like you can do that. And I wasn't giving you the space to do that because I wasn't giving you reassurance because I wasn't sure. But also. I was asking you to do something impossible basically, again, in this cycle of give me safety, give me a reassurance.

No, I can't give you one until you give me the other one, you know? But yeah, I think we're very clear on what, what, what the work ahead is. Anything else you want to share?

John: Just. Giving a shout out to Seth. I, you know, I met you at the same time, met him and immediately felt drawn to him and appreciative of him as a person, and having obviously my own relationship with him and, and having heard your episodes on Poly Curious, I have a lot of [00:48:00] respect and appreciation for him.

As a person, as a partner, and I've learned a lot from your dynamic with him and, and how he shows up. And it takes a lot of work on his part to be the sort of person that can be in such allowance of you. And I have a lot of respect for that.

Fer: Hmm. Awesome. Well, um, I usually end by asking people, what would you tell to a poly curious person?

I.

John: Be curious, not judgmental. I know I sold that from Ted Lasso, but I kind of look like him if I shave my beard. And, and by that I mean if you feel fear or negativity or judgment rising up, be kind to that and examine it. And if you think that you're poly or think that you're monogamous, like. Whatever's right for [00:49:00] you.

Whatever you feel is right for you in a given circumstance is probably right for you. And don't get too caught up in labels.

Fer: Yeah. Well, thank you so much. That was really sweet.

John: Thank you so much for inviting me and thank you so much for everything you've given to me and shared with me.