Evita: [00:00:00] I was dealing with these like really deep, deep, deep seated wounds that were highly triggering and highly activating and having no skills to regulate my nervous system and center myself so I could actually have a healthy conversation and stop and say, you know. When you complimented Brie and told her she looked really pretty today, it really activated me because I can't remember the last time you told me that I looked pretty and I struggle with you finding me desirable.

Can you just reassure me that you also find me attractive? No, it didn't look like that. You know, it looked like, you know, ripping up as fucking condoms, you know, because condom, I was attacking, you know, their sex life in, in, in my mind. You know, that was the thing to do. So,

Fer: hi everyone. Welcome to Polycurious. I am Fer relationship coach and host of this podcast, and today I'm talking to Evita Sawyers. You might know her as La Vita Loca 34 on [00:01:00] Instagram. I really love her content. I would highly recommend that you go and follow her if you haven't already. A lot of really amazing.

Insights on polyamory. And today she also offers a lot of really, really incredible insights. Some of the things that we talk about that I feel like are going to be really, really helpful to you are how to deal with those big feelings that come up in non-monogamy when you're feeling jealous or when you're feeling insecure.

Evita has come a long way, and she's not afraid to share all of the instances where she's maybe not acted in integrity or where her feelings get the best of her, and I think we can all relate on that. I think non-monogamy brings up a lot of big feelings, so if you're having a hard time managing those Evita has really, really great advice for us.

We also talk about her experience being on a triad. Very, very interesting. She's actually [00:02:00] in a documentary called Poly Love that explores that relationship. You can find it on prime videos, so I'm also going to make sure to add that to the show notes in case you want to check it out. So today we talk about her experience being on that triad, and also her experience divorcing her husband of 17 years at that point, after non-monogamy, helped both of them realize the limitations of their own relationship and the ways in which they weren't fulfilling each other because they found that fulfillment in other people.

And I find this fascinating because I think that non-monogamy can be really eyeopening in many ways. It can show you how good you have it. It can show you how bad you have it, or most of the times it just shows you that. There are ways in which your partner is amazing and ways in which maybe they're not fulfilling all your needs.

So Evita and I talk about how it's important to identify what those needs are [00:03:00] and whether those are important for you to have in all of your relationships, or just in your primary or en or nesting relationship, and how you can learn to communicate about it. But sometimes those people may not be able to give you what you need, and non-monogamy can show you that maybe you are not with the right person.

This is kind of a controversial topic 'cause a lot of people then blame non-monogamy for their breakups or for other people's breakups. But often I think it's for the best. If it shows you that you're not supposed to be with one person and helps you find someone that does, will fulfill those needs that you have.

It can also be very positive. If you love Evita and want more from our conversation, head on to my Patreon where Evita and I talk about things like her experience living a religious community and also trying to find a hookup when she was very upset and jealous that her husband at the time was out on a trip with [00:04:00] someone else.

And how that turned out, spoiler alert, trying to find someone else to be with, to make you feel better about your partner being with someone else. It usually doesn't go very well. But anyhow, I hope that you guys enjoy this episode as much as I did, and if you find it helpful and you think other people could benefit from it, make sure to share it.

Okay guys, here is my interview with Evita Sawyers. Hi Evita. I'm so excited to talk to you today.

Evita: Hello. Hello. I'm happy to be here. Thank you for inviting me on your show.

Fer: Yeah, of course. You know, it's interesting because I actually rarely. Have someone on my show that I don't know that I just met through Instagram or, well, I mean we just met now, so it's not even like we knew each other before, but someone whose content I see that I'm like, I want to have this person on the podcast.

Very rare. Like I can't even think of someone of the top of my head. There might be another one or two people, but [00:05:00] there is just something about your content that I see and I'm like, that resonates so much. And I'm sure you hear this all the time, but that's so right. That's exactly how I feel or what I think, and I think that you and I are similar in that we want to educate and help people.

We we're not prescriptive. We're not saying this is right and this is wrong. We're not saying you have to be non-hierarchical or a relationship anarchist, or you have to do Poly this way. But we're more like, okay, this is our experience. Let me. Talk about it so we can help you figure out what your experience is, but I really appreciate that openness on your side to teaching people what your experience is like without judging them, if that makes sense.

Evita: Yeah. Um, I, I, you know, I, I, I find it so interesting that, you know, polyamorous people come away from monogamy, which is very [00:06:00] scripted, and then we get into polyamory and we do a lot of the, some of the same things. So if we are saying that this relationship style is about customizing your relationships to fit, you know, what feels most fulfilling and satisfying for you?

Then you have to know that, you know, some people are going to have things that are fulfilling and satisfying for them that, you know, you won't super understand or wouldn't be fulfilling and satisfying for you, but it doesn't necessarily mean that they're wrong for doing it. Um, and so, um, and so yeah, so I try to approach this space from, okay, as long as someone is not trying to harm somebody.

Um, you know, be dishonest with someone. They're being above board. They're doing the best that they can to, you know, have the communicate their needs and their desires and, you know, be mindful of being in concentrate relationships with the people that they're involved with. A lot of, you know, stuff having to do with polyamory is really just more, you know, I take a, a harm reduction model, you know, to polyamory.

So it's like, okay, you want a hierarchy, here's how you do [00:07:00] that so that you minimize the harm. You know, you want a unicorn hunt, okay, here's how you do that so that you minimize the harm. Um, and that's, that to me is a lot more effective than, you know, wagging our fingers at people saying, you know, you shouldn't wanna do this, you shouldn't wanna do that.

You shouldn't want to be this way. You shouldn't wanna be that way.

Fer: Yeah, precisely. Because to me, non-monogamy is all about relationship design. How do you want to re design your own relationship or relationships? And if you start pointing fingers, then it's really hard to do that without feeling the judgment, which we are just getting over the monogamy judgment.

And now we're gonna get into polyamory judgment. It just doesn't make sense. But today, I wanna learn about what your relationship design looks like. Sure. And I've heard bits of your story from the podcast that I've listened to, but I haven't really heard the latest update. But before we get there, since the listeners haven't listened to all of the other podcasts, can you give us kind of [00:08:00] like a brief overview of how you entered into non-monogamy?

Evita: Yeah. So, um, at the time it was in 2013, if I'm not mistaken. Um, I was married, monogamously, married to a man, um, and we got into polyamory to essentially, um, explore my sexuality. I'd always known that I was queer of some shade or variety, but I was monogamously married to this man. Uh, we initially got into non-monogamy with swinging, um, and the idea was that I was gonna get an opportunity to explore my sexuality with, you know, my partner obviously knowing, um, and him getting the benefit of that, you know, so in some respects.

Um, and then he had a lot of like sexual, like just repression and like hangups. Um, sex was always a really difficult space for him. [00:09:00] And so we initially got into swinging. My idea at least was, I'm gonna get a chance to explore my sexuality. He's gonna get a chance to sort of lighten up, you know, loosen up.

Um, sexually, you know, we started with swinging. That was okay for a while, but it was very challenging for him. Um, then it was for me because, you know, whether or not, I don't know that he would identify as this now, I would definitely think he is somewhere along the, the spectrum, at least of like a demisexuality.

So I think that he, while I don't, I think he can experience some sexual attraction without having an emotional connection to a person. Um, but, you know, it's, it's not very strong, you know, so like me, I can sleep with somebody whose name I don't know, or at least I used to be. That's changed for me since I've gotten a little bit older.

But, you know, back in the day, you know, um, uh, when I first got into this, I was like, oh my God, like I can be a slut. Like, you know, and so I was just like, yes, you know, this is great. And, um, and so, yeah, so swimming was [00:10:00] very easy for me because I don't need a lot of connection with a person to be able to be sexual with them, um, uh, which, uh, he did.

Um, and even that was interesting because, you know, in our, our cultural understandings, you know, our cultural ideas about men and women, you know, men are like little Caesars Pizzas. They're hot and ready, you know, all the time for like $5, you know. And, you know, women are like, you know, supposedly we take all this time, you know, and we need all this lead in and, and we need all this connection to have sex.

And that was not the case in our marriage at all. Like, he was the one who needed all this lead in. And, you know, and I was like, yo, like you wanna fuck you. I wanna fuck. Okay, cool. You know? And that was kind of it. So, um, so swinging worked very well for me. It did not work very well for him. He struggled, so swinging was really challenging for him.

And, um, and so at a swing a party, we got introduced to the concept of polyamory. And up until that point, we didn't know existed. You know, so we, we like, which is so strange, you know, to me to think about. [00:11:00] But now having done this for like over a decade and knowing that there's this huge community of individuals, you know, for me to go, 'cause at that time I was probably like mid thirties, that whole portion of my life, just not knowing that people engaged in consensual, you know, um, multiple romantic relationships was such a wild concept, you know, for me.

So we're at the swinger party, me and my, um, ex-husband. This woman comes in with her boyfriend, and then her husband came to the party a little bit later on and they were just like chopping it up, like everything was cool. And we were like, whoa. Like, what is this? You know? This is wild. You know? And, um, it had much less appeal to me at the time than it did to my ex-husband.

Uh, because the way my, my philosophy about like sex and relationships at that time was like, sex is like a, to me, sex was like a bodily function. I'm like, it's like, you know, sweating, like, you know, like it's just stuff that our bodies do, [00:12:00] you know? Mm-hmm. Um, and so like, it just did not have a lot of meaning.

And so having sex with someone didn't feel. Super threatening. You know, it had moments of threat, but it wasn't like this like majorly threatening thing for me. Um, but like having an actual relationship, having an emotional connection, sharing your regard, your affection, that stuff, I was like, that's mine.

You know, and I don't want you to give that to anybody else. You know, I didn't understand the desire to wanna have that, 'cause I didn't have that desire at the time, you know? I was like, I'm very comfortable being emotionally connected to you and we just have a bunch of people that we fought, you know? Um, and that felt very good for me.

Um, but for him, um, polyamory had a major appeal, um, because it afforded him the opportunity to develop emotional bonds to people. And he feels a lot more comfortable being sexual with people that he has emotional bonds with. So we tried it out. Uh, it did not go well. Um, initially he went on like [00:13:00] one date and I like lost my shit.

Like it fell apart and, uh, we tabled it. Um, and then six months later we revisited it because, you know, swinging afforded me the opportunity to have sex with women. Um, it didn't afford me the opportunity to have relationships with them, and I wanted the experience of being able to have relationship with a woman.

So we reopened up the conversation of, uh, engaging in, uh. Polyamory as opposed to just, you know, swinging. And at the time we went to a party like shortly after that and met this woman who was the other person that was in the documentary with us. That was our first polyamorous relationship, lasted about two years.

And it's so funny, we really weren't unicorn hunting. I was, honestly, I told my husband, I said, there is no way that we're gonna find a woman that we both like, 'cause our taste was so different. I always said he had a man's taste in women. I had a woman's taste in women. And so our, our taste in women was just very different.

And then we randomly go to a party. And meet [00:14:00] this girl and we're both like smitten. So we were with her for two years. That relationship was highly volatile. Um, none of us had had any experience navigating the complexity of non-monogamy when feelings are involved. So, you know, we had all come from the swinger community, but none of us had any idea of how to navigate that part.

Um, and like most triads, what I've observed, you know, in the community is they feel so serendipitous. You know, it's like, oh my God, like the three of us and we all have this chemistry. And it's great that a lot of times they like punch it, you know? And so it's like, oh, like we have this chemistry and it's wonderful, and now this person is living with us after two months, which.

You know, even in Monopoly. And, and that

Fer: was kind of the case for you, right? Like didn't, uh, the third person breathe, is her name move in with you soon after you started Yeah.

Evita: The

Fer: relationship.

Evita: Yeah, she did. She moved in. Yeah, she moved in pretty quickly. So like we were talking about like, you know, commitment ceremonies and her having a child and all of this stuff.

[00:15:00] And we had been together for like a few months, which now looking back in hindsight, I'm like, what were we thinking? You know? But like I said, it, it feels so serendipitous, you know? It's like, oh my gosh, the three of us, and we all get along and we all like each other and we're all attracted to each other and we all wanna have sex with each other.

It's like, oh my god. You know, like, this feels like this like once in a lifetime, like once in a million thing. And so as a result. Um, you know, we just, were not operating with a full clip in terms of like reason.

Um, yeah. And we made a lot of like very interesting choices. Um, and so that relationship lasted for about two years. Um, and then once that was over, you know, we were just non-monogamous from that point forward, and so we just stayed with it. And we had just various relationships of various configurations throughout the course of us being together.

And then he and I separated in 2020, and then now I'm, I'm living my life as a, you know, single, [00:16:00] non-monogamous person.

Fer: Yeah. And I have so many questions about that triad as well. Having watched the documentary, I feel like a lot of people listening might be finding themselves in that situation.

Evita: Mm-hmm.

Fer: Where it's like, oh, the three of us get along so well. This is so great. And it's like new relationship energy multiplied by three. Right, right. So tell me a little bit about the early days. You said it was a volatile relationship and you know, if people watch the documentary they'll see a little bit of that, but Right.

Why was it so volatile and what would you, you have done differently? Or, or you maybe potentially will do differently than next time you find yourself in a triad situation.

Evita: Yeah, I've actually been in two, so the second one was much better. Oh, okay.

Fer: Oh,

Evita: okay. Okay. I won the comparison. It wasn't with my ex-husband, it wasn't with my ex-husband.

I dated a married couple and I had a ball. Okay. It was fantastic, the second one, but that first one was two. It's

Fer: a lot easier to be the third person.

Evita: It, it really is. It really is. And especially in that circumstance [00:17:00] because, because I was already married, we didn't have the ability to be like, oh my God, this is so great.

Move this person in. Like none of that was just on the table. And I feel like that allowed us to really just enjoy that three person chemistry because nobody was like, in the like existing couple was freaking out, you know, about the emergence of this other person because there were just certain things that we just were not going to do.

Like we weren't going to live together. We weren't going to have a, you know, none of that stuff was gonna happen. 'cause I already was married, I already had kids. In a different situation. And so we could just enjoy that. Oh my god. You know, as three people we get along really well and the chemistry is really great without all of the other stuff that kind of, I, I think tends to trip, you know, uh, triads up.

But the first triad, um, uh, that I was in, what made it volatile was God so many things. She was significantly younger than us, so she was probably about eight years younger than us. Um, and so like, she was like early twenties. Um, and so there was that developmental piece. [00:18:00] Um, so we punched it, you know, so like I said, in two months we were talking about, you know, commitment ceremony and her having a baby and like all kinds of stuff.

And so we just got very, very clouded by the intensity. Um, and we did not pace ourselves. What was going on for me that made it volatile is, um, I used to say that if you took every personal insecurity that I had about myself and made a person, it would be her. So I was literally watching my ex-husband like be in love with every personal insecurity I had about myself.

Fer: Can you tell us what those were? If, if, oh yeah, absolutely. That's not absolutely too much to ask.

Evita: She was younger than me. She was thinner than me. She was of mixed race, so she was black and white, so she was light skinned. She had longer hair. She had a very bubbly personality, so she was very girly and kind of cutesy.[00:19:00] 

Um, she was very charismatic. She was a Leo, so, so she was very charismatic and, uh, so she got a lot of attention when we went places. Even body-wise, her body type. She had a really big butt, um, big, thick thighs. Um, and, um, like I'm, I just have a long back, like there's no behind, like, you know. And as a black woman, you know, that's like a, you know, a tragic, you know, so, um, and so, yeah, so even body shape wise, her body shape, uh, was, you know, very, uh, challenging for me to witness, you know, him liking.

And then, um, because my relationship with him was so much older and his relationship with her was new, it was having to watch, you know, him, like show up to her with energy that like, I hadn't felt from him towards me in years, you know? Mm.

Fer: Mm-hmm.

Evita: Um, and that was really hard. Um, also my, like, now looking back in hindsight, um, [00:20:00] even though me and my ex-husband did polyamory for like seven years together, like, it's wild to me that I ever thought that that relationship was secure enough for me to even do this.

That's like, that is like, now looking back, I'm like, oh my God. Um, I'm not saying that he was a bad husband 'cause he wasn't at all. Um, but a lot of my like. Like real fundamental relationship needs, were just not met in that relationship. Um, and the same thing goes for him. So I'm not even saying that, that was my, just my experience.

That was his experience as well. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Like what very, like what needs? Um, so he wasn't very verbally affectionate. Words of affirmation are a big love language for me. Um, he was kind of, I used to joke that he was a robot, you know? And, um, you know, in some ways, you know, he, he was very emotionally not online.

Um, and even to this day, he's very like that, you know, just not very emotionally connected. Whereas for me, I am like, I'm Pisces. I'm water sign, emotions are my [00:21:00] language. Okay. So and so, like emotionally, it was very challenging for him to meet my needs. 'cause it was like, you know, speaking, clinging on sometimes.

And I would try to talk to him about my emotions. He just didn't understand them. Um, like I said, you know, words of affirmation are a big love language of mine. His was like physical touch and quality time. Um, uh, which, um, are not the largest ones on mine. Also, we had a lot of sexual stuff. So like, I, like I said, I had a very high drive, so I didn't feel very desired in that relationship.

I didn't feel like he found me very attractive. Um, and so he just was not expressive at all. And so I spent a lot of the, that relationship going, does he even like me? Like, you know?

Fer: Yeah. And then seeing his desire for this new person must have been really difficult. 'cause that's what you have wanted from, had wanted from him for a long time.

Evita: Yeah. It was really, really hard. And that's not to say that the relationship was bad. It wasn't, um, but he just was not expressive. And I, I [00:22:00] really wanted a lot expressive. So expression, so feeling secure in that relationship was so hard. And so now, you know, watching in a wi the way I describe triads is, um.

It almost feels like a double betrayal, at least in my experience. For some people, they may experience it differently, but it's like your partners are in love with somebody else and then someone else is each other. You know, I think people get into triads, especially in the pre-existing couple, going, oh, if we're dating the same person, I, we're not gonna get jealous.

We're not gonna feel uncomfortable. And I'm like, no, actually it's more discomfort, I feel like, and it's more, you know, uh, of an opportunity for jealousy because so much of the relating is happening right in front of your face. Whereas like if my partner is dating somebody else that's not, you know, that I'm not connected to a lot of the relating that they're doing, I'm not seeing any of that.

'cause they're off wherever they are doing their thing or I'm not there, you know, I'm not seeing a lot of what's happening in their relationship. But in the triad situation, all [00:23:00] the stuff that's going on, you know, or most of the stuff that's going on in their relationship is happening right in front of my face.

Um, and so this idea that I've never done non-monogamy and I'm gonna move from never having done non-monogamy to moving to a model where not only are we doing non-monogamy, but everything that my partner is doing is right in my face. You know, it's naive at best. Okay. And delusional, you know, at worse. Um, and so, yeah.

And so I'm like having to watch, you know, essentially like my ex-husband expressed this desire for this person and this energy towards this person, you know, that I had, hadn't felt like he had demonstrated or exhibited towards me in a very long time. Um, and certainly not to the extent that I wanted it, you know, but that was more indicative of us just not really being super compatible for the, like I said, the kinds of relationships that really, really, really like filled our spirit, you know?

Mm-hmm. And really were fulfilling. And so that's really [00:24:00] kind of what made it volatile. And then at that time, I did not have very, uh, many emotional regulation skills. I was unlearning the concept of monogamy, you know, which very much posits that. Like if something your partner is doing is make you uncomfortable, you are well within your right to pitch a fit.

You know, until they stopped doing the thing. I was dealing with these like really deep, deep, deep seated wounds that were highly triggering and highly activating and having no skills to regulate my nervous system and center myself so I could actually have a healthy conversation and stop and say, you know.

When you complimented Brie and told her she looked really pretty today, it really, you know, activated me because I can't remember the last time you told me that I looked pretty and I struggle with, you know, you finding me desirable. Can you just reassure me that you also find me attractive? No, it did look like that.

You know, it looked like, you know, ripping up its fucking condoms, you know, because, you know, I was attacking, you know, their sex life and, and in my mind, you know, that was the thing to [00:25:00] do, so.

Fer: Right, right. You mentioned that in the documentary, and I, I meant to ask you about it. So basically they were using condoms to have sex and then you ripped them up 'cause you got jealous.

Evita: Yeah, I was, I was upset and frustrated, I wanna say. 'cause I don't remember such a long time ago. Um, but like I said, sex was always an issue, you know, in our relationship. So like a lot of my struggle with my ex-husband was. You barely scrape up enough sexual desire to give it to me. How are you now wanting to give it to other people?

You know, obviously I, I know that that's a, like a, you know, a faulty way of thinking, but that's kind of what I thought about was I was like, I'm not sexually satisfied in this relationship. How are you telling me that you wanna have sex with other people? Um, and so I think at the time when I ripped up the condoms, I must've been like feeling some kind of frustration around like, you know, maybe he and I had a night together and we didn't have sex [00:26:00] or something had happened sexually.

That was frustrating for me. And like I said, in my mind, me ripping up their condoms was like me kind of attacking their sexual connection because I wasn't feeling, um, fulfilled in the one that I had with him.

Fer: Yeah. Thank you so much for saying that, because I think that, especially now as we talk about today, right?

And how you wouldn't do, or I would like to think that you wouldn't do that today. No, not at all. Uh, but I think, you know, as, as someone prominent in the poly community that a lot of people look up to and listen to their advice, and I know you're also a, a coach and all these things, but you were there, you were that person that did the thing, the kind of thing that you are like,

Evita: can you believe this thing?

I did. Yeah. That wasn't even like the wackiest thing I did. It really wasn't Oh, yeah. You wanna share with us wasn't, oh my gosh. So many things I remember. Halloween, the triad had [00:27:00] broken up, but she and him decided to stay together. 'cause they always got along pretty well. She and I were like, oil, oil and water.

We just did not, and, and you know, now I would've had the wherewithal to kind of be like, you know, our romantic relationship does not work, but y'all two seem to be able to do well with each other, so y'all just go ahead and y'all can do what y'all want. You and I, we good. But I, I just wasn't able to do that.

I didn't have the emotional ability to be able to do it. I looked at it as if I conceded and was like, yeah, she and I don't work out. It, it felt like losing to him and I didn't wanna lose. And so I stayed in this relationship that I was very unhappy in and she and I did not belong together. The first breakup was like, we broke up, you broke up with all of us.

After the second breakup, or the third, God only knows what number that was. I had gotten access to some polyamory education, which fortunately showed me the problematic ness of saying, well, because you don't get along with me. Now, you can't have this relationship with him either. I, I saw that was not, that wasn't the best thing to do.[00:28:00] 

And when we broke up that time that is featured in the documentary, I was like, okay, I'm, I, I don't, I can't in good conscience be like, okay, well since you and I don't work out you and him, you don't get to be with him either. Um, and so I was like, all right, y'all can still date. But it was super challenging.

I didn't show up to it. Well, like, yeah, it, it wasn't easy for them. Um, and they broke up not to, um, the last time we broke up, that was the idea that they were gonna stay together. But they broke up shortly after, uh, because it was of how challenging it was. But, um, but anyways, so I was at work. I worked at Barnes and Noble at the time, and it was Halloween and I had to work like a night shift.

And I love trick-or-treating. I love Halloween. It's my favorite holiday. And so I wanted to take the kids trick or treating, but because I was at work, I couldn't. And so she was very involved with our children and they knew her. They really appreciated her. And so her and my ex-husband took the kids trick or treating.

And I was hoping that I could get off early enough to meet them at the trick or treating and then like catch the little tail end of trick or treating. But like I said, at the time my son was special needs, he was like [00:29:00] not too far out from his cancer treatment and so he didn't have a lot of stamina and he had gotten very tired.

So when I got to meet them that trick or treating, he was already like wiped out. He was like, I, I'm done. And so they didn't want to go trick or treating anymore and I was so angry because I was like, that bitch took my fucking kids trick or treating and these are my kids. She got to play family with my kids and my husband while I was at work, my husband had went to.

Six Flags with my son, okay. For his special needs. He went to Six Flags and he had bought me a water bottle. He bought me a water bottle. It was a, a Harry Potter water bottle, and he bought her journal and even the water bottle, we had a fight about the water bottle because I thought that the gift that he brought her was more thoughtful than the gift to he brought me and I was like, you brought her this journal and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

I was like, you brought me a fucking bottle, you know? And so, anyway, which it was so dumb because I loved Harry Potter at that time. So it's like, girl, okay, but, and so anyway, so I got this water bottle. I get to the trick or treating [00:30:00] and my son is finished and they're like, yeah, we're done. We're packing up.

I was so angry that I didn't get to go trick or treating with my kids, and she got to go trick or treating with my family that I took the water bottle and I went and I like threw it on the ground. Cracked it, broke it. Yeah. So now my little gift was tore up, messed it up, and at the time we were filming the documentary, so the camera coup was there.

Okay. I don't know the, yeah,

Fer: I was gonna say that Halloween is in the documentary, but they didn't add the, the

Evita: bottle because of them not to add. I don't know if they got it, they'll say so. I don't know if they saw it. They saw that part, but I, I knew that they knew that I was upset, so that part they knew.

But they didn't film me breaking the water bottle. No, they did not.

Fer: I love it. We're getting a behind the scenes. If you watch the documentary, you'll know what we're talking about because that I scene where you're picking up the kids. I

Evita: really wanna do like a showing and do it like popup video where you stop and you go, so this scene right here, lemme tell you what's going on.

Lemme take you [00:31:00] the background information. You,

Fer: oh my God, you should totally do it. Yeah. Yeah. It does sound like it was very difficult for you. It sounds like you were experiencing a lot of jealousy. Mm-hmm. So now tell us what helped you? How did you go from that to where you are today? You said I didn't have very many emotional regulation skills.

Like how did you learn that? What are some of the those for listeners who might be in the breaking the water bottle stage to apply maybe earlier than you did?

Evita: Yeah. One of the things I tell people is the biggest benefit of polyamory is, is self discovery. It's not the multiple partners. It really isn't.

It's all the things that you learn about yourself, all the things that you learn about yourself, and it affords this very unique opportunity. To learn things about yourself that I, I just don't feel happens in any other arena. That's not to say that people can't learn those lessons, but the way they happen in polyamory, I feel like, is very unique to the experience.

And so one of the things that polyamory taught me that my default [00:32:00] response to pain was anger. Um, and so I was like, Vita, you have an anger problem. Because what would happen is I would get very activated. Some people get activated and they get sad, you know, so they cry, they, no, I would get angry. I'm cussing people out, I'm throwing shit.

And so I was like, Vita, you have a bad temper, you have an anger problem. And I came from an abusive background. My father was very, very abusive, physically, emotionally, mentally. And it's coded in there, you know, so it is. And a lot of people say, well, if polyamory is something that brought this out of you, why continue to do it?

To stop doing polyamory, you fixed. But I was like, I don't want there to be any situation where that's how I'm behaving. And so once I started seeing like you're really behaving in these like really, really, really intense ways, I began to go, Vita, we gotta fix that. You know, we gotta solve this problem 'cause you're acting out in these like really terrible ways.

And then also my ex-husband was like, you need to fix [00:33:00] that because you doing the most. So I went to an anger management group therapy for like a few months. Um, and then I worked at Barnes and Noble and, and so I was around, I love books and I remember it started with a book, my like process or my journey started with a book called The Untethered Soul by Michael, a singer.

That was the very first book that I read. That put me on like this, this path of like, oh wow. You know, bringing the unconscious conscious and a lot of what happens in our relationship space and our, our love space, our sex space. A lot of it's super unconscious. A lot of it's unconscious. And so it was a lot of it was bringing the conscious forward and then I was like, oh my God, you know, I wanna read more books like this.

And so then I read The Power of Now By Ole, and I read The Four Agreements by Don Miguel Ruiz. And I read No Mud, no Lotus by Han. And then I read this other book by Byron Katy that was really good called Loving What Is, and then these polyamory books started coming out. So at the time when I first started polyamory, um, more than two was [00:34:00] not a book at all.

You know, it was the ethical Slut and that's all you had. You had the Ethical Slut. I think there might have been a book called Open Relationships. Um, there was maybe like one more, you know, um, but they weren't super well known. But then more than two came out, you know, and then now we're starting to see all these different publications, which is great.

But at the time, there really wasn't a lot to read. So I, I joined polyamory groups and discussion groups where people were talking about polyamory, and that was helpful. Um, but a lot of it was just my own personal like seeking of knowledge. And so I read nonviolent communication, which was great in terms of changing how I communicate about when I'm activated.

I've read the Gifts of Imperfection by Brene Brown, and so I just kind of started myself on this path of like reading these kinds of materials. So I'm like, oh, wow, these people are having these conversations about all of these ways. But like I said, we need to bring the conscious forward in terms of like how we relate to one another.

And I always tell people I'm a connection junkie, so I love connection. I love love, I love [00:35:00] being around your people that you really like and. And we do so many things to like obscure that basic q and e, we make it so much more challenging than it needs to be. And I find that super fascinating. And so some of this is just, I just find this stuff so fascinating, these things that I uncover about myself when I get activated and stuff comes up and I'm like, oh my God, this is fascinating.

And so a lot of my sharing. That got me to where I am today was me going, I, this is so fascinating. Has anybody else thought this? Has anybody else felt this? I wanna share this with someone. Isn't this fascinating, this thing that I learned about myself because of this situation that happened, and then it just started resonating with people.

But yeah, but it was a lot of just personal, like seeing myself and being like, Ooh, you know, and then going, how do we fix that?

Fer: Yeah. I really think that that's a great message of the polyamory, not just being about the partners, but about the things that [00:36:00] you learned about yourself. Right? Had you not become polyamorous, would you have gone to an anger?

Support group or would you have read all, all these books? Which by the way, I will make sure to link in the show notes for people to check out because I do feel like those resources help a lot. I'm curious, so for if, if someone else is also dealing with some anger and that's how they express their jealousy, any tips that you might have that come to mind?

Evita: Oh yeah, for sure. So the main one is pause. There is so much space that between activation and response and we don't really think that there is because like once that tape comes on, you know that your condition responses, now you're almost like a marionette, you know? But there is a lot of space between activation.

And reaction. You know, it is really, really rare for somebody to be in a situation where they get activated and they have to react right away. Like what's coming forward for me is [00:37:00] you see some child walking out into the street and a truck is coming. That's activation in response. A lot of what happens in our relationship spaces don't, doesn't need to be acted on right away, but they feel so urgent that we're reacting right away.

One of the biggest things that I got from my anger management class was widening the gap between when I got activated and when I respond to the, you know, response that I chose. There's so much information in that space, and so just learning how to say I am activated right now. Pause, I mean, does wonders.

You know, for your emotional regulation, you get a chance to center yourself. You get a chance to breathe, you get a chance to say. What is happening right now? Because usually when you get activated, you are no longer present. You are in the past or you are in the future. So you're in the past. This is something that happened to me before and it's happening [00:38:00] again.

Or you're in the future. This is something that's gonna happen that I don't want.

Fer: Mm-hmm.

Evita: Very rarely are you still present with what's going on. So the pause gives you an opportunity to become present and ask yourself, where am I right now? Am I here? Am I here? What's happening right now? Or am I in the past?

Am I in the present? It also allows you the space to sort of check and go, this thing that my emotions is prompting me to do. Is that in alignment with my values? Is that in alignment with my integrity? Is that what I wanna say? That I, how I showed up to this person in this moment?

Fer: Do I want to throw that water bottle on the floor right now?

Evita: Do I wanna throw that water bottle on the floor right now? Do I want to rip up these condoms right now that he probably spent $20 on it? So now that's $20 that we lost because I ripped up these expensive ass condoms. You know, is it going to create a larger mess that's gonna be even more uncomfortable?

So like, yeah, it may feel good for me in the moment right now to rip up these condoms, but when I go back to my [00:39:00] husband and I tell him, he's like, Hey, have you seen, you know, where's my condom? What's going on? I'm like, oh eh.

Fer: You know,

Evita: well, you know, and now we have to have this cold conversation about this thing that I did.

So pausing is very important. Recognizing that feelings pass, that they are temporary. There's this Buddhist rapper that I just, uh, discovered in his music is amazing. He has a lyric that I've been repeating like in my head, constant, constantly. And it's, it's a song where he's talking about meta, his meditation practice and the things that arise.

Meditation, thoughts come up, emotions come up. We usually think that meditation is the idea is to get to a place to where those things don't happen. Where, to me, that's not the goal. The goal is to get to a place where those things happen and, and it's like a, it's like a leaf floating down the river. You know, you let the leaf float down the river, you don't reach it and pick it up mm-hmm.

And hold it. Mm-hmm. He's talking about like emotions or different things rising up and he says, show myself love as I ri, watch it rise. Show myself love as I watch it, stay, show myself love as I watch it [00:40:00] fade. So myself, love as I watch it, change all emotions. They rise. They stay for a little bit. And then they fade.

And then they change. They all do. And so understanding this is a temporary emotion, even though it feels very urgent right now. And it feels like it's the whole thing. And I'm feeling it so intensely, and I can't imagine a reality where I ever felt anything other than this. And in a reality where I'm gonna feel anything other than this because of how intense and feeling, especially it's jealousy.

Jealousy is such a visceral emotion. I experienced it very visceral, very visceral emotion. So being able to go, this too shall pass. I am not gonna feel this way forever. And if I can pause and just wait for the intensity to die down a little bit, just a little bit, I can make a wiser choice because I'm not making a choice from my reactionary place.

And so to me, like a lot of emotional regulation is just going. I don't need to react right now, I can just [00:41:00] pause, take a breath.

Fer: Mm-hmm.

Evita: You know, walk away, step outside. You can even say, I am really activated right now. And so I don't think that if I make a, if I say something, if I do something, it is not gonna come from my most integrous place.

And so I need to step away. I need this conversation to end. I think that we bring such a sense of urgency. I have an anxious attachment style, so it's like every relationship issue has to be fixed. Right now. It doesn't matter that we're in the middle of a chilies, but we gotta have this conversation.

Right. The fuck now, you know, and we gotta resolve this right now. Um, and one of my saving graces moving forward is this understanding that like, you know, it's okay to say I, I should probably set this on a shelf until the emotional dust storm kind of settles and I can see a little bit clearly. Because there's just no clarity.

There's very little clarity in that activation space. Almost none. Yeah.

Fer: Yeah, yeah, no, what you're saying is gold. And that's [00:42:00] completely changed how I deal with relationships too, and that's what I teach my clients all the time. Because what happens is that we are in fight or flight, right? Mm-hmm. So it's literally like our survival mechanism responding to what we perceive as a threat, but it's not.

Like it used to be an actual lion that's going to eat you. Right? Right. Like this is, as you said, like it can wait 20 minutes and actually 20 minutes is the amount of time that takes for your nervous system to calm down. Right. So, you know, I, I always encourage my clients, if you can just stop and as you said, go on a walk, take a shower.

Honestly, I literally sometimes stop and I'm like, babe, I'm sorry, but I don't want to talk right now. And I go and literally meditate in the middle of an, an argument. I like lock myself in the room and I meditate in the middle of an argument. If you can do that for 20 minutes. That's going to completely change your relationships.

[00:43:00] The thing is that it is really hard for people. I know it sounds really simple, but again, in that moment you're in fight or flight. So I remember, I mean even as a child, I remember I was very reactive or as a teenager and it wasn't until maybe my early twenties that I learned to pause and not to, to let that sense of urgency because as you said, it feels super urgent in the moment to make me act in a way that I didn't want to.

So let's go back to your story. So, okay, the triad didn't work out. We're not gonna get into the details 'cause I think we've already shown a picture of like kind of why it didn't work out. Right? Um, but then you went on and continued your journey. What happened after that? I know you eventually divorced your husband, but I think there were maybe a few years in between.

Yeah,

Evita: there were several years. Yeah, between the triad ending and us, like, the triad ended in 2016 and we split up in 2020. So yeah, so after the triad [00:44:00] ended, um, you know, we were just, okay, this is what we're doing. And then at that point we both engaged in whatever relationships we wanted to engage in. He had different partners here and there.

Um, I had different partners here and there. I, like I said, I dated an a married couple and so I was in a triad of a different variety. Um, and um, and then um, in 2020 we split up, you know, a lot of people, you know, they think it was polyamory that did it. And I always say that polyamory is no more mighty to break up a relationship as monogamy is to keep a relationship together, you know?

So, um, polyamory did not, you know, it didn't end our relationship. What I will credit it for doing. Is showing us that the kinds of relationships that are most fulfilling for us are possible, just not with each other, you know? So that's what I will credit polyamory for doing is showing us that like, oh, this thing that you [00:45:00] really wish you had with this person, you can have it.

You just can't have it with them. You know?

Fer: Yeah.

Evita: And that's kind of what it showed me. And for the type of relationship that we were in, we weren't suited for each other. We broke up just shy of 17 years. I think it's honestly a marvel that we lasted as long as we did. And like even now, I would say, like I used to tell him, I said, if I met you now, like, and we met each other, I would never do polyamory with you.

Absolutely not. Like, absolutely not. Like, no. Like absolutely not. You know? So that was pretty telling. And I think a lot of times people assume that if you're compatible for monogamy together, then you will automatically be compatible for polyamory together. And No, absolutely not. Absolutely not. You. You could have had a wonderful monogamous relationship with the person.

And then polyamory and it's like terrible. And then I've seen situations where people had a really bad monogamous situation with the person. They were like, Hey, let's try polyamory. And they were like, oh my God. You know, that was the thing, you know? So polyamory kind of showed us this thing that we're doing [00:46:00] with each other.

We probably shouldn't be doing it with one another. It showed us that like, oh, I can be in a relationship with someone who readily expresses their desire for me. I can be in a relationship with someone who, when I have a challenging emotion and I'm crying and I'm bringing it to them, they don't respond like a deer in headlights.

You know? You know? And it just, I don't even know what to do about this right now. But they offer inside and wisdom and you know, and hold space for me. For him, physical touch was a very big deal for him. Um, in relationship, and I'm actually not, physical touch is not super high on my love language list outside of sex.

I'm not a super big fan of being touched a lot. I'm really not. So, um, and he was very physical touch. So, you know, for a long time he was going without, you know, a very core need of his in relationships. And not only was he going without that need, but what we, what happens in our relationship spaces is we [00:47:00] start to internalize that stuff as if this person loved me enough.

If I was lovable enough, if I was wonderful enough, they would give this to me easily. Don't they see how much I want this? Don't they see how much I need this? Everybody needs this. 'cause we think like, and EN says, we don't see things as they are. We see things as we are. So they're like, this is such a major need for me.

This has to be a major need for everybody else. Why is this person not giving this thing to me that I desperately need? And so I think also what was happening in the not getting our base needs met from the other person is we were internalizing a lot about what that meant about us. So, you know what, if he's not communicating with me and telling me all the time that he thinks I'm attractive or telling me he loves me, or you know these things, then he must not think that I'm lovable.

He must not think that I'm desirable. I must not be desirable because if I was, this person would be easily expressing these things towards me, you know? And that just, you know, it just wasn't the case. We were just built very differently. I was willing to still try. He was not, I think he was [00:48:00] tired. He was very tired of, I, I say he was tired of trying to make the east meet the west.

Mm-hmm. We were so different and so like polar opposites in a lot of ways. And I think he just got tired of, of trying to find that middle ground when we're literally like this, you know, trying to, you know, finding middle ground was always like, you know, trying to find a middle ground and I think he just got tired.

One of the things he said to me when we broke up is he said he no longer subscribes to the belief that relationships should feel hard, and were it not for the fact that at the time I was dating this person that I had just started dating and that relationship was so easy. It really was. It was such an easy relationship.

I don't think I would've understood what he was saying, but when he said that, I was like. Yep. I was like, I get it. Because I had this relationship experience with this other person, it was so easy. I was like, oh my god. Even conflict when we were in conflict with, it was so much ease and he and I never had ease.

We never had ease. We loved each other very much. We liked [00:49:00] each other. We never had ease. We never had ease. It was always hard. Always hard. 'cause we were so different. Um, and so, yeah, and so then we split up, I moved over to New Jersey to sort of reorient myself post-divorce. And then at that point I was like, okay, we're just a non-monogamous human.

And so I just never, I've had moments where I've thought about returning to monogamy. I have, I'm not gonna lie, you know, I've had plenty where I'm just like, things would be so much easier if I returned back to monogamy. But I liken that to, for me, it's like living in a five bedroom house. And then trying to move into a two bedroom apartment and taking all of the furniture and all the stuff that you use to fill that five bedroom house and then trying to put it in a two bedroom apartment, it's gonna be crowded as fuck.

Mm-hmm. And so that's what, what going, going back to monogamy feels like for me. So even when I do think about, you know, I could just go back to monogamy, that would be really easy. I know that that would not be fulfilling. And eventually I would be like, yeah, this is just how I wanna live. Even if at times [00:50:00] it's challenging or I find that I'm not enjoying my experience as much as I would like to.

Um,

Fer: so yeah. Yeah, it's kind of that idea of, yes, I could go back to having less and doing less work, but I have all these wonderful things in my life that I don't wanna give up. Right. So the work still feels somewhat worth it. I did wanna comment on what you mentioned about your divorce and how being in other relationships showed you.

What you could have. Right. And, and how that contributed to your divorce. Because, you know, it's interesting for me, I've had kind of the opposite experience where I've been like dating and being with other people, and that I've been like, oh my God, my relationship is so good. I feel so safe. And that's great.

But I, I do think that that's a risk, right? Like when you open up your relationship, which direction is going to go. But what I'd like to think is that. No matter which direction it goes, it's [00:51:00] good, right? Because if it shows you that person didn't make you feel safe or that you weren't meant for each other, then great time to break up.

And if it shows you that actually you have a really safe and awesome relationship, amazing, and then that means that you can still explore other things while having that safety and foundation in, in your relationship. So it's a question of what's important for you to have, right? Because for example, obviously I have other relationships that show me the things I don't have.

There's a reason why I am still dating other people. So then I think of, for example, the sexual exploration. That's a big part of why I'm dating other people. But I'm like, that's not something that I personally feel like I need to have in my primary relationship. Like sexual exploration is something for me that I can outsource, but right.

Sexual connection is not something that I can outsource. Right. And I do have a sexual connection with my partner, even though we don't explore sexually that much. Right? So [00:52:00] it's really like understanding, okay, what is important for you to have in your primary relationship? And then if your other relationships are showing you that you don't have that, then sure you might end up breaking up, but it might not be a bad thing at the end of the day, right?

Because then you'll go on and find that person that does fulfill those things for you, hopefully.

Evita: Yeah. I do think that there is, it can go both ways. Going out and dating can show you like, oh wow, I really don't have it that bad, you know? Um, but for us, I think it just showed us like, you know, maybe like how much we were going without, um, because we were in this monogamous relationship and we were like, okay, like this is the person that I got.

And so I just gotta figure out how to live with, you know, me really not getting this thing. And at the time, I don't think either of us really possessed the ability to like communicate and say, Hey, I really need this thing that, you know, you're not providing. Can we work on you adjusting? So you can give me that.

But I also think that some of the things that I needed, even if I [00:53:00] would've been able to have those conversations, I don't even think, you know, my ex-husband was capable of providing those things at all. Like, you know, I, I think it, it was just so far off from who he was fundamentally as a person that even just the trying would've been like this monumental undertaking.

Fer: Yeah, and I think that's a good point of, it's not necessarily, you always have to outsource whatever your partner is not giving you. Maybe you can identify it, ask for it, and work on it, but you have to be able to express it at the time they need to be able to give it to you. Right. So, for example, it reminds me of my relationship with my partner because even though as I mentioned, sexual exploration is something that I'm exploring with my other partner and not really with my primary partner, that doesn't mean that we're not working on that too, right?

I feel identify with your husband that I feel like I want more physical touch, but that's something that I communicate to Seth, to my partner, and then [00:54:00] he's working on it. But the fact that I'm getting, that I'm getting the physical touch and the sexual exploration from my other partner. It's actually helpful because it makes me less resentful to, well, sometimes it can make me a little bit more resentful 'cause you're comparing.

Right. But in general it helps me be a little bit less resentful. Whereas I imagine if we were in a monogamous relationship, I'd be like, oh, I really need to get that touch. Oh I really want to have a threesome. Oh I really want to explore sexually. Right. So non-monogamy also sometimes allows you to get that while you also work on it with your older partner.

Right? Like to get that with from one partner while you also continue working on it. I think the risk is when it's something that's really a core need of yours and you're not working on it 'cause you're getting it elsewhere. And again, if, if this is not your primary partner, maybe it's fine, but if it's someone that you want to be your anchor partner, your life partner, whatever, then you have to identify, okay, what is essential for me?

Like for your husband, it was [00:55:00] physical touch, for example, and that's something that he needed in the primary relationship and that you in that moment weren't able to give to him. And I'm sure you had things that he wasn't able to give to you.

Evita: Right, and I think we think of polyamory as like a, oh, well, if I just don't get this from one person, I can get it from another person.

And so I call it frank and poly. You know where you're gonna build a perfect partner by like smashing together all of these different partnerships. And I get this from this person, I get that from that person. And in these, you know, relationships being smashed together, I have my perfect part. And I'm getting all of my relational needs met.

The issue with that is there are some things that I'm like, okay, like I don't need partners that like to dance. It's nice when I have it and I would love to have a partner, you know, that loves to dance, but I don't need partners that like to dance. That's more of a want, you know, that's a want. But do I need partners that are emotionally connected and intelligent?

Absolutely. That is a relational need for me across the board, you know? So it doesn't [00:56:00] matter that I can get emotional intelligence from someone else. I'm like, if I'm with you, I'm gonna want that from you too. And so I think like there's this idea, it's like, oh, okay, well these things that I don't get from my partner, you know, my primary partner for example, I can go someplace else and get it.

I'm like, yeah, but there are certain things that you want from everybody, you know? Yeah. You want it from everybody. Yeah. And uh, and so it doesn't matter, you know, that you can get it from someplace else. I still want it from you. And so I think that there were things that it was like, okay, like, you know, I need this, um, and I can get these from these other people.

And that made it sort of no longer acceptable that, you know, we couldn't get it from each other.

Fer: Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. What's it like for you? I know you said you still experience jealousy, but what's your relationship life looking like now in terms of how you react when you have those feelings?

Evita: It's a lot less acute, so I still feel the discomfort, but it's not sharp. So before like the discomfort, it would overtake me like a trance state. I actually talked about this [00:57:00] in terms of my attachment style. So I, I have a, a wound, it would get activated and then my attachment style would like come over me like a trance state, you know?

And so now I'm not operating in my centered mind, my wise mind, you know, my attachment wounding is running the show. Before jealousy used to feel like I got punched in the gut. It was like punch drunk, you know, like I, I'd be disoriented and discombobulated and you know, and it was very, very intense. I couldn't focus on anything else.

I couldn't think about anything else, you know, when I was activated. Whereas like now I'm like, Ooh, you know, something will happen. I'm like, ugh. You know, it's a little uncomfortable, you know, but it's, it's not this like huge overtaking emotion that happens. I have a lot more tools at my disposal in terms of emotional regulation, take a walk, take a pause, go outside, that kind of stuff.

Um, and I'm able to access those pretty easily. I also have a lot more access to language. So now when something comes up, I can communicate about it in ways that feel good for me, [00:58:00] um, and feel like I'm communicating, um, the truth and the genuineness of what I'm experiencing, but from a place of integrity and to where I'm not.

And then also I just don't get activated as much. I, I almost, I describe it as like, you develop a callous, you know? Mm-hmm. So yeah, the first couple of times your partner goes on a date, it feels really, really raw and intense. The hundredth time your partner is going on a date, you know, it doesn't feel that same, you develop kind of like a callous, you know, it's like we've been through this before, and so that's kind of happened too.

Now I have anecdotal data from 10 years, you know, being non-monogamous that your partners can love other people and still love you. That your partners can desire other people and still desire you, that your partners can, you know, show up well to their commitment to you, even as they're showing up to their commitments for other people.

And so now I have enough anecdotal data to be like, oh, okay, I can relax a little bit about this. Because this doom and destruction that I believe was gonna happen, you know, after 10 years, you know, none of that has really even ever really [00:59:00] come to pass.

Fer: Yeah. Thanks for sharing that. I think that shows people, you know, the transformation too.

And again, it's still hard for you, but also I must say, you know, you mentioned you had an abusive father and you, you, you, you had trauma. But even with someone that has that background, like you, you've managed to make it work in a way that, that you feel good about. Right? Yeah. So, so even if you feel like you're having those trans reactions, like you are, you, you can, you can get to where Evita is.

You can, it will get easier. Well, Evita, it's been so wonderful to have you. I like to end my interviews by asking what would you tell to a poly curious person? So you, I know you've already given great advice, but for anyone who's early in their journey, any advice or anything else that you feel might be helpful if they're just starting out.

Evita: Get comfortable with being uncomfortable. Okay. It's probably the best advice that I have is [01:00:00] get comfortable with being uncomfortable because it's going to place you in some situations that may not necessarily be painful, but they're uncomfortable. Um, and so learning how to sit with discomfort is a godsend in polyamory because you will, I don't care how much naturally com conversive you are, whatever you will find yourself in a circumstance where you feel uncomfortable.

Not seeing that as something to where it's what this person is doing needs to change what I'm thinking and feeling needs to change, or the situ like needs to change. Like sometimes it's just, nah, shit's just uncomfortable. You ain't wrong, the other person ain't wrong. Shit's just uncomfortable. And that, that's okay.

So yeah, my advice today is get comfortable with being uncomfortable. Um, because in that there's a lot of growth and, and discovery. Yeah.

Fer: Yeah, I love that because again, we have this tendency to want to fix their feelings. But yeah, what I have found is that as we were talking about before, [01:01:00] feelings come and go and sometimes it's just a matter of waiting it out and that means waiting it out in discomfort.

And we're not used to that. We don't like that, but we do learn a lot from it. So I think that that's great advice for anyone who's there. And what I also like to remind people when you are in that discomfort, remember that the discomfort won't be forever. Thank you so much, avid, that this was amazing and I'm sure people will learn so, so much from you.

So yeah, really appreciate you making the time.

Evita: Thank you. Thank you for having me. This was a great conversation. I deeply appreciated it.