Tarynn: It wasn't just that he wasn't accepting me for who I was as I was going through these changes, but I wasn't accepting him for who he was as he wasn't going through these changes. And so at that point we started to really accept the relationship for what it is and to kind of get out of this construct of like, what marriage is supposed to be.

Fernanda: Hi everyone, this is Polycurious I am Fernanda. Uh, and on this episode um, Mariah and I speak to Tarynn who is a New York based psychotherapist. She focuses on alternative sexualities and lifestyles, including non-monogamy monogamy, of course. And if you're looking for therapy and want to connect with her, you can find her website in the show notes.

Tarynn grew up religious, married right out of college, had a child, and if it happens to many, she started having issues in bed with her husband, which led them to opening up. Fast forward to now. She has been with her husband for 10 years, but also has another serious relationship that she considers as significant as her marriage. In this conversation, we talk about the importance of accepting your partner for who they are, no matter how different they might be from you or from the ideas that you have about how a relationship should look like. We talk about how she achieved a comfortable kitchen table polyamory with her partners, which basically means that they are both comfortably around each other around the kitchen table, and they are friendly to each other. We talk about what it's like to have a daughter while being polyamorous and how she will approach the subject when the time comes. And about an idea that I found really important to put out there, which is that people tend to assume that if you're polyamorous and you're having issues with one partner, it is because of the other partner, when that might not always be the case. We dove into so many interesting topics that we hadn't really covered before. So I can't wait for you guys to hear our conversation with Tarynn

Mariah: So, hi, Tarynn So good to have you on the podcast. I'm so excited to have you here. Uh, we've been friends for quite a while now and, um, just really excited to hear your story and dive a little deeper into that.

F: Yeah, me too. I just met you. But, um, that's another reason why I'm very excited, because I was just telling you actually before we started rolling, uh, how I love when there's someone that you don't know very well and you can just like start from the beginning and kind of like hear everything that they have to say because there's so much to talk about. So, yeah, I can't wait to dive into your story.

Um, but before we go into your journey into non-monogamy wa, don't you tell us a little bit about yourself, maybe your upbringing. How was growing up like for you?

T: I'm, um, really happy to be here. Um, and it's nice to meet you. Fer I grew up. I, um, had a little bit of an interesting upbringing. But essentially I was raised in a modern, uh, Orthodox, A Jewish, Modern Orthodox family. Um, so very, very, very conservative and traditional values, not a lot of alternative thinking, really. Traditional Modern Orthodoxy is basically where you follow traditional, uh, laws of Judaism, like from the Old Testament. Most Orthodox people observe Shabbat, so, um, there's no use of electricity on, um, Fridays and Saturdays. Um, a lot of, uh, Orthodox women dress modestly. Sex is, as in most, uh, religions, um, look down upon until marriage. But, um, the modern aspect is that, um, we weren't really in a bubble. We were still very much a part of the secular world. My parents both had regular jobs, had friends that were both men and women, perhaps even had some progressive ideals, um, politically and whatnot, but just a lot of as stringencies and also kind of a lot of really this idea of sort of sticking with your own kind, being, keeping yourself immersed in the Jewish culture and the Jewish identity and not really straying from that.

F: Right. And I assume that's how you met your husband, was it through the community?

T: Yeah, I kind of went with emotions. Um, graduated high school, I went to a year abroad and studied religious studies in Israel. Um, yeah, I lived there for a year, um, and then came back to the States, went to a pretty Jewish undergraduate college for my undergrad. And I met, uh, my husband actually through my roommate.

F: Oh, nice. Um, and how old were you at that time?

T: I was 20 when I met him.

F: Okay, and how had your, um, sexual journey been like, to that point? Had you, like, I assume that your parents expected you to remain virgin until marriage?

T: Yeah, my parents expected me to remain a virgin until marriage. Um, that was not the case. Um, I was very, uh, curious about sex at a pretty young age. Um, and even in high school. I lost my virginity in high school.

F: O. Okay.

T: Um, but they didn't know. And it's kind of. It was kind of like a don't ask, don't tell. Like maybe it's possible they had a hunch, but it wasn't something that we talked about. Also, I guess something that's uh, important to point out is that so we weren't not allowed to date. Uh, when I was younger, it wasn't, uh, unusual for myself or my siblings to have a girlfriend or a boyfriend. Um, but there was still this standard of like, it's going to be wholesome or maybe it's going to lead to marriage, um, that kind of trajectory.

F: Right. And, uh, you ended up marrying your husband when you were 21, right, you mentioned. Yeah, yeah. Pretty young. I feel like when I was 21, I don't think, like, I mean, I had had sex, but I actually hadn't even had an orgasm. Like, pretty young. In your sexual journey, anything you mentioned before, um, like you went into it without having explored that much either. So how did you eventually realize that you wanted to open your relationship?

T: Well, I didn't explore as much as a normal, uh, 21 year old would have, but I did explore m. Pretty much my entire year in Israel. I was having sex, um, sex with soldiers, sex with Yesheba boys. Yeah. Um, so I was definitely exploring. Um, and as we know, like, we're in our 30s now. Right. Um, so as you get older, I think your understanding of what an orgasm is and also what you're actually feeling, uh, intensifies later. So I probably was experiencing orgasms, but I wasn't experiencing orgasms as I do now. Um, it was kind of just like a rite of passage. It's like the way I grew up. It was like, you go to Israel, you go to college, and while you're in college, there's this expectation that you're going to find your husband. So that's kind of what happened to me in terms of us eventually opening up. That didn't come until much later, around year 4, 5.

M: After marriage.

T: After marriage we were having, you know, issues in the bedroom, as young couples typically do, or even any couple eventually typically reaches this point where, um, it's not that exciting anymore. You're with the same person for so long, um, and it kind of just becomes a routine, it becomes mundane. Um, it doesn't happen for everybody, but it does happen a lot. It happened to us. Um, and my husband was really not satisfied and I was frustrated with that. We started to see a therapist and this was actually pretty unprofessional of her. But she suggested that maybe we explore that maybe we get on dating up together and have a threesome or we date somebody together, or we could just kind of spice it up in that way. I was like, totally not about it. Um, Abe was like a little bit more into the idea.

F: So you mentioned before that, he was not satisfied. Do you feel like you were satisfied in the sexual relationship with him?

T: I wasn't satisfied, but I was busy, you know, I was just kind of like, um, I wasn't really considering that I needed to nurture that side of myself or even that ins Side of the relationship. And I was a lot of laziness. Like, it was like, e. Uh, whatever. It's fine.

F: Also, by this same. Had you had a, uh, kid yet?

T: Actually, we did, yeah. She was really young. She was, like, maybe a year old. Um, so it was also that, like, I was also, like, a new mom. I was in grad school. I, um, was working. Um, my body had changed quite a bit. Like, I didn't really have this strong desire for sex, um, after I had my daughter, but so he was more interested in the idea. Um, and I completely was like, no, it's not happening. And then I actually went away to visit a childhood friend, um, in Texas. And while I was there, I, uh, downloaded Bumble. Um, not with any intent to, uh, cheat, but just to kind of like, see how I would feel like looking through different people's profiles. You have to remember that I got married in 2013, and dating apps were not a thing. So I never even even experience a dating app before. Something about exploring different people online really kind of got me horny. Um, and actually when Abe came to pick me up from the airport, I was on the plane the whole time fantasizing about being with other people with him, that we pulled over on the side of the road and actually had, like, insane sex. And then after that, decided that we should go on dating apps together.

F: Oh, wow. Were you fantasizing to have him and another man or another woman?

T: Him and another man.

F: And did you tell him that and, like, that's how the spontaneous sex happened?

T: Well, uh, when I got off the plane, I just told him that, ah, I'd been fantasizing about sex and was really horny, and we pulled over to the side of the road and had sex. And then afterwards, he was like, what got into you? And then I told him.

M: And he didn't feel any sort of jealousy or betrayal from that in any way?

T: No, because, um, well, you have to remember we have, like, a really strong foundation. Um, he knows me, and there's, like, absolutely no possibility, you know, that I would ever cheat or be dishonest. Um, I was really honest about it, um, and he really reaped the benefits of it, I guess, because we had really hardcore sex on the side of the road. After I got picked up. So I'm pretty sure he, uh, was just more happy about it than anything.

F: Right. So, yeah. You found that thinking of yourself with other people but with him, like, kind of like ignited your. That desire that was kind of a little bit pushed to the side because of life and circumstances.

T: Yeah, it kind of like, gave me this excitement about just exploring a new adventure. Um, and it was something that I was so close minded to until I was like, let me see you. And let me, like, actually give myself a chance to see how I feel about this before just saying no without actually really thinking about it.

F: Yeah. And how was it? How was your first experience opening up?

T: Our first experience was actually kind of weird. Um, we got on Feeld and we met this awesome guy. Actually. I'm still in touch with him. M. Um, we're like, friends, and it's interesting because we both sort of grew up similarly. Um, and so we relate to each other in this way. It's kind of like this naughty thing that we both have. Um, but we invited him to our house, and, um, I was, like, really excited to play with him, but was so nervous about Abe's feelings the entire time that I kept, like, stopping, you know, our interaction and being like, are you okay? Are you okay? Um, I also didn't tell him that I had a baby. And so at one point, the baby cried and he was like, what the fuck? So it really just didn't go well. We actually didn't even end up having sex. Um, we did kind of other stuff and chatted and got to know each other. Um, but I guess it was a really honest, uh, representation of a couple just opening up. And, uh, we've remained friends since.

F: Nice. Did it actually help your sexual relationship with Abe, uh, separately from when you were with other people?

T: Yeah, I mean, it kind of, like, became this bonding experience because, like I said, he and I, uh, were never on apps before because we were married before they were a thing. And so we would, like, after work, have dinner, and then kind of like, get on the app together. And it was kind of fun and kind of exciting to maybe think about the potential of inviting someone else into our bedroom. Um, so we did that for a while. We had, um, a lot of experiences together. We started going to play parties together. Um, and I think the dynamic started to shift once we started going to parties together because we are completely different personalities. Um, I am super extrovert, very outgoing, make friends really easily. Abe is more, um, introverted, a little bit more shy. Takes a lot longer for him to kind of come out of his shell and show people who he is. And so I started to feel like at these parties that he was kind of, like, holding me back a little bit. Um, and then I expressed that I wanted to kind of separate at these parties and see how it goes. And it usually went really well for me, but it was really not fun for him because he was just so shy. And so he was watching me kind of get this attention and have these experiences, and he felt really left out. The jealousy wasn't really about me having sex with somebody else. It was more about him feeling very left out and pushed to the side. After that, we kind of just talked about, um, taking a break from the parties for a little bit until I felt like he was willing to come out of his shell and put that effort in. Because if you're going to a party and you're trying to, like, play with another couple, both of us have to kind of, like, do the work with that couple. It can't just be me and then like, oh, and here's my husband. Um, you don't know him at all because he hasn't really said that much, but want to sleep with us. So, um, I started going on the apps and dating separately from him. Um, and he started doing the same. He, um, had a little bit less patience with it than I did. And just being a female, um, there's just a lot more opportunity, um, than for a male, especially a male who is married. Um, um, a lot of women aren't really about that life. And so it was really a struggle for him.

F: Sure.

M: And did that ever develop into being easier over time? What ended up working in that situation or did it not?

T: It actually got really, really hard. Um, so I started dating this guy and I was really into him. And at the time, this was really in the beginning stages, so I didn't really have as much knowledge about no monogamy or polyamory. I wasn't really being so considerate of Abe. I was really just kind of like a kid in the candy store and really just excited and selfish. And that relationship really, really kind of messed up our dynamic a lot. He wanted, um, me to stop seeing this person. We started to continue therapy and we were at an impasse a lot because, um, he was feeling really threatened, um, which is something that happens a lot. And, um, we were fighting a lot. And, um, ultimately we actually decided to separate. And it was more than just the non-monogamy I was kind of like going through my own journey where I think that for the majority of my life, I was kind of just focused on doing the right thing and making my family proud and going with emotions about what they expected of me. That I sort of started to feel like I don't even know who I am. And I felt like I really needed time by myself. I went by myself to Burning Man. Um, we were separated for about six months. And at Burning Man, as people typically do, uh, they learn a lot about themselves. And I just really missed Abe and realized that it wasn't just that he wasn't accepting me for who I was as I was going through these changes, but I wasn't accepting him for who he was as he wasn't going through these changes. Like, I had this expectation that he should be on the same page as me, that he should be asking similar questions to me, that he should feel uncomfortable being complacent. And at Burning Man, I kind of realized that I needed to start accepting him for who he was. And then, uh, we got back together after Burning Man.

M: That's amazing I feel like usually when people go to Burning Man, it's just like, forget my life before I'm gonna start all over.

T: And. Well, we also have a child. Um, and I also. We have this really special love for each other. It's like we are each other's family. Like, there's just so much more to it. Um, and so at that point, we started to really accept the relationship for what it is and to kind of get out of this construct of, like, what marriage is supposed to be. Um, and just we started writing our own ruls and we started trusting each other and our intentions in this more. And since then, um, we have had a really beautiful kitchen table style, polyamorous relationship. Or really, I like to look at it more as relationship anarchy.

F: Yeah.

M: So I want to get into that a little bit more. But I guess inn understand too, what was it that shifted? So you understood that you needed to kind of consider him more, but what did that actually look like?

T: I think that I was just expecting him to do what I was doing. Like, we would go to parties, and I would be like, why isn't he as outgoing as me? He's not this partner in crime. I think I was really worried about how other people were perceiving us, but, like, that's all bullshit. Like, what we have is really strong and really real. And I just started to take that at, uh, face value and to also just be okay with being different.

F: Yeah. Yeah. I feel identified in the sense that set my partner he's a, um, much more introverted person and I'm a lot more outgoing. I'm actually the only one in their relationship was non-monogamous And, um, so am I. Oh, that's awesome. Actually, I was talking to someone um, the other day and I was like, I want to interview someone who is in the same situation as I am and here you are. And I didn't even know that. That's awesome. But yeah, I mean, it's not so much that I worried, uh, what other people think. I understand that in your situation at a play party, it's a different dynamic. I've never gone to a play party with Seth, but, uh, definitely coming to terms with the fact that he's not as outgoing as I am and just being like, okay, well he's gonna stay home and I'm going to go out. And maybe to some people it might be like, where is saidd or might find a little weird or I might wish that he came out with me more. Which is actually something we were talking about yesterday. Um, but then you just come to terms with the fact that you are one type of person, he's another type of person. And maybe that's precisely why you work with one another and you can't have both.

Uh, for example, I love how he's so chill and how he likes to be at home and that makes me stay home. But at the same time, when I want him to go out, I want him to go out. And it's just like you can't have everything. You have to accept people the way they are. But I find it really interesting that at first Abe was the one who wanted to open the relationship and you didn't want to. And now he is not practicing non-monogamy and you are. So things kind of like flipped. So I guess what he was looking for was just to like ignite the desire in your relationship, I guess, or. Why do you think he's choosing to be monogamous?

T: Well, for him it was really all about the sex. Um, I realized ultimately that it wasn't just about the sex for me. It was also about like having an intimate romantic connection. Um, I also should specify that Abe is, I guess he's not fully monogamous. Um, he is open, um, to sexual experiences with others, but he doesn't really feel like there's a need for any kind of, uh, romantic or intimate fulfillment with somebody else.

F: You know, I don't know if you've seen that in your practice, but I've noticed that in the podcast. Almost every couple that I've interviewed, the woman has been saying, like, I realized at some point that I wanted more romantic connections with people. I don't want a stereotype at all. I'm just saying this is something that I've noticed. I don't know if this is something that you've noticed in your practice that men are more interested in sex and women are more interested in the, um, romantic aspect of relationships.

T: Well, I think men and women are titillated in very different ways. Men are often more visual creatures. Women usually need a little bit more intellectual stimulation. And yes, this is not a rule. I know many women who are just kind of down to get some strange and move on. But typically I think that's a reflection of just like how different men and women are in terms of their just emotional structures.

F: Yeah. And even probably biology. I don't know. I've mentioned this book before. I don't know if you've read it. Uh, "Come as you are"

T: I have not read it.

F: Um, I've linked it to the show notes before I link it again. But basically, uh, in this book, uh, she talks about how women need more, uh, stimulus to get aroused. In general. There's exceptions, but there's studies that show that men are, uh, more easily aroused spontaneously. So they might see an image and immediately they get a boner. You know, and we are more like, we might need a little music and we might need a little candle and a little conversation before, uh, in general, but that's not the case for everyone. And actually when I read that, I was like, oh, this is great. Like, validating the fact that I might need the perfect music and the perfect lighting. And before I would be like, oh, why is he so turned on? And I'm thinking about the fact that I don't like this song or whatever it is. Right. And after I read that book, I was like, you know what? I don't care if he doesn't care about this song. I care about the song. I'm gonna stand up and change it. And I think that really helped me with my sexuality. But anyhow, we drifted, um, off.

T: I think it's like, I also don't wanna like, pigeonhole this sort of like, with gender. I think, like, people in general are just wired differently in terms of how easily or not easily it is to become aroused. And also just some people have more of the emotional bandwidth to want more, uh, complex relationships and intimacy in their life, and others just don't. And in this case, I clearly have moreimate emotional bandwidth for this. And Abe is just kind of like, you know, he's a businessman. He wants to provide for his family. He wants to relax. He wants to chill. Like, opening up another serious relationship is just not a thing that he's interested in. But I'm sure that if that kind of happened naturally, maybe he would be open to it.

F: Yeah. Uh, it sounds like because you accepted him, he was able to accept you. Like, you guys were like, we don't work together because we're different. Let's break up. You broke up. You're like, okay, no, let's accept the fact that we're different and continue together. Sounds to me like.

T: Yeah. And I guess I also just explained to him, and I think over the years, he realized this about me is that I am a constant, evolving human being. If he wanted to stay with me, he would have to accept that I don't want to be held back from my growth, and my growth doesn't have to threaten our relationship.

F: You have another partner that you've been seeing for over a year now, right?

T: Yeah, we have a really serious relationship. Um, and, uh, Abe is my nesting partner. We have a child together. We pay bills together. We, uh, kind of strategize our lives together. My partner is. We'll call him J. He is a very serious relationship. There's no hierarchical thought about that. Like, it's as significant of a relationship.

M: How does Abe feel about that?

T: Abe actually feels great about it. J is at our house all the time. They have become very friendly. Um, everything's really on the table, out in the open. We'll host dinner parties and things like that. And J is there. They will text about stocks. Um, it took a little bit to get there, but everyone's really connected, and everyone's really accepting about what the relationship is.

F: Yeah. Can you tell us how you got to that point? Was there ever any conflict with Abe and maybe some tips, because I'm sure that there's people who have partners who they want to connect with their nesting partners or their primary partners.

T: Um, so I guess I could say I am a communication expert. I really, really, really push for radical honesty and acte communication at all times. And so very early on expressed to J what it was that I needed, um, how it was that I needed him to communicate with me. Um, and same thing with Abe. And so we were kind of like, all on the same page about the way we communicated. We, uh, would have difficult and awkward conversations just all out on the table. I think it's just about kind of like Taking your ego out of it and just being really real and supplying like a comfortable environment so that everyone feels safe talking about all different kinds of things. Maybe I got lucky in the specific relationship dynamic. But, um, they both, Abe and J root for each other.

M: And that's been like that since the beginning.

T: Or it's been like that since the very beginning. I mean, I will say that when I started dating J, J was in, um, a very serious relationship, which ultimately ended. So that dynamic really made this kind of progress. Sort of delayed, but once that sort of ended, Abe really wanted to, uh, support J through his breakup. Abe was really encouraging about me spending more time with J to kind of give him that support.

M: O. Um, that's so sweet.

T: Yeah, it was really sweet. Um, you know, before I recently went on a trip with J and Abe was like, uh, just so you know, Tarynn gets really grumpy on the way home. Kind of like helping each other in a way. It just remains safe. But I think what it really comes down to is like, just accepting the relationship for what it is. You know, Like, J does not have expectations that he and I will be nesting partners. I'm not saying that will never happen, but we kind of choose to live in the now. Like right now. This is the situation. We really make a conscious effort not to practice, uh, this kind of like, um, ah, relationship escalator. You know, like a lot of people get into a relationship, they're with each other for a year and then they're like, okay, what's the next step? Are we going toa move in together? This is very freeing in the sense that, like, everything's out on the table. There are none of those expectations. We're not thinking about the future. We're really just focusing on the here and now.

M: So does J have any other partners as well? Currently?

T: He currently does not. I do encourage him to do that to date if he wants to. Um, right now he did get out of a 15 year relationship and he's kind of just like enjoying this dynamic. He's in his 40s, he's not looking to have children. That's not an interest of his. And so I don't think he feels really rushed to kind of settle down in that way. And I think he's enjoying the family aspect that I kind of provide to him as well. So I think everyone's just kind of like taking it day by day.

F: Cause he's close with your daughter?

T: Yeah, he's close with my daughter. He's over quite a bit. They will play Together or do art together with us. You know, we've gone bowling all together as a family. But it's not weird for my daughter because the way my household kind of is in general is like this open door policy. Um, we have all different kind of friends over all the time, staying over. I kind of normalize, like, cuddling. It's just very normal for her already. But I think that she knows that J is a very special friend.

F: Right. Uh, it's interesting because in preparation for this interview, I was listening to some podcasts, uh, with, like, the one expert or, like, the one person who's done some research on polyamory and, like, families and children. And what she was saying is that kids who grow up in polyamorous arrangements kind of acquire social skills that other kids don't have. So in a way, it is a plus to live in this sort of arrangement, even though some people might think that it might be weird or whatever. But she was saying that the most harmful thing to kids was not the arrangement itself, but the stigma around the arrangement. And I know your kid is like 6 years old, so she's very young, and there's probably no need to explain right now what the arrangement is. And she's totally fine with knowing that J is your friend, but do you ever think of how you're going to present this to her eventually, if you are? Or do you feel concerned at all around the stigma that she might experience?

T: The only concern that I have is that we're in a very precarious situation because she has a very close relationship with both mine and Abe's parents, and we are close to our parents. But I don't plan on lying to her. You know, my daughter never needs to know what's going on in my bedroom. Monogamous or not, my sex life is none of her business and would be inappropriate to share with her. But, you know, if she ever, as she got older, point blank, asked if me and J, or me and whichever partner was in a relationship, I would be honest with her. I think honesty is really important, and I think being dishonest only further stigmatizes things.

M: Sure.

T: So, Don, I'm kind of just like, seeing how it goes. You know, just like they say, there's no manual for being a parent, there's also no manual on being a poly parent. I am kind of like, uh, researching different children's books and things like that to kind of like, just introduce the idea to her in general. She, I'm sure, is also going to become familiar with the Kind of work that I do. The way that we would probably go about it is just, um, explaining how love isn't wrong no matter how you choose to love. And, um, that the only time it would be wrong is if there was dishonesty. And she can very easily see that there'nothing that I'm hiding from her father because we'll all three be in a room together. Everything's really out in the open. I don't think that as a young child and as she grows up, she would see it as being something wrong because it's not a secret. So I'm kind of just playing it by ear, but I'm choosing to be honest.

F: That transition from Abe kind of being uncomfortable with that first relationship that you mentioned, that was causing some conflict. But now with J seems like from the very beginning it was great. So obviously there was a transformation on apes side. So I was wondering about that, about that transformation, how it happened.

T: He needed to realize that he was getting in his own way. He wasn't trusting me and was like he had to be faced with this loss of like, possibly not being with me to realize that all he had to do was just kind of like, accept. Partners need to accept each other for who they are more and not take it as a threat.

M: So what did he not trust though?

T: He really just had this insecurity that I was gonna leave him behind. Like I was gonna find someone better than him. And that's his own insecurity, which is valid, right? Like, everyone has that insecurity in a way. Um, but like, all of my actions were showing that I cared. Right? Like, I went to therapy with him every week. I was talking to him about everything. I was asking him how he was feeling. He wasn't looking at, like, the facts right in front of him. And he was just really, uh, jaded by his insecurity and his emotion. And eventually you have to be like, am I gonna let this come between us?

F: Yeah. And you know, I feel like that's one of the biggest questions in non-monogamy that I myself have, because, I mean, I feel very secure in my relationship. But when people are afraid that they're gonna lose someone if they start seeing someone else, it is true that it happens. I mean, I know that, for example, in your situation, Mariah uh, there were other issues in the relationship, and it wasn't necessarily because of your polyamory. Um, but those things happen. So, like, the way of trusting that that's not going to happen is that Abe needed to realize that you were gonna communicate and still it doesn't mean that it cannot happen. But like, it's not like it's gonna be like from one day to the other one, I'm gonna leave you for someone else. He's gonna know where you stand because you're continuously communicate. And.

T: Well, it's also this idea of, like, if I'm going to leave him, why does it have to do with the other person that I'm seeing? Like my relationship with Abe and J, although we do have this very lovely, uh, you know, kitchen table polydynamic. They are separate relationships. If something were to happen to me and J, it would have nothing to do with Abe and vice versa. Well, it takes time for people to accept that concept into their reality because of just this whole concept of looking at relationship structures in a different way is new and it's challenging.

M: Yeah.

T: You know, and I think that's like this idea that people have. Right. Like they're looking for something to blame it on.

M: Well, it's actually interesting too, because I'm going through the situation. Is that because I did end up breaking up, or Logan and I broke up and continued to date my new partner, he ended up experiencing a lot of guilt around it because he did feel like he caused it in a way. Right. And it is because there is some sort of blame. And when I told my parents about it and. Cause I'm open to both sides of my family now, which is something else that's new in this podcast. Thanks. Um, but when I told my father's side, I was like, the first question that they asked, they like okay, well, it's because you started dating this other guy now. Right. I'm like, no, it's not like we were having issues for years. I just wasn't happy in the relationship. And the non-monogamous side of it added another layer for me to kind of dive into and more so distract myself rather than actually provide a solution.

T: Well, and that's this, like, you know, that's the stigma. Right. There's not enough individualism in relationships. You know, um, people are used to. Yeah. It doesn't have to be grouped in. Right. Like one has nothing to do with the other. Maybe that's sped up the process. Maybe that relationship, uh, gave me the courage and an outlet to kind of speak about it and draw this conclusion sooner than I would have before. But it's not the cause.

M: Right. Yeah. I mean, trust me, this has been one of the hardest and easiest breakups I've ever had, which has been Such a weird place to be. Um, but I think a lot of it is on the easy side is because I know I have another partner who's there for me and is supporting me. And now I have a very good relationship with Logan where we can be friends and still live together and coexist in a way. And just the both of us have realized mutually that we, neither of us were getting our needs met.

T: Cheers to easy breakups. Easy breakups rock. They don't have to suck. Right? Like, there's also this vibe that the shit has to hit the fan when you break up with somebody and it does it. You know, two people can kind of realize that this isn't working for us anymore and doesn't have to be a negative thing.

M: But I think it also adds a lot of beauty to non-monogamous relationships in the fact that you do have an opportunity because you're constantly exploring yourself to see what is right for you and what is not and in a sooner timef frame.

T: And we want to see what's right for us. Right. We don't want to stay in relationships that are not great for us because we made a commitment.

M: Right. Or like you're settling in a way.

T: Yeah. You want to find the truth. And both partners deserve to find that, you know, and, uh, having that freedom really benefits relationships in a lot of ways. Like probably Abe and I feel stronger about our relationship now that it wasn't like you. Uh, we were pinned against the wall and had to make this decision or because we had to do what everyone expected us to do, we really chose this and that's really powerful.

M: We had conversations previously about when you and J started forming a relationship together, that you were very clear on all sides that it was important that they do coexist. And do you find that because you pushed that in a way that that created more of a space for them both to feel comfortable in that or, uh, was there any hesitancy or resistance to that idea at first, before it did become comfortable?

T: I just kind of naturally started to express to both of them that the lack of connection between the two of them was stressing me out too much. And they both care about me individually and so they didn't want to contribute to my stress. And so I think that reason alone kind of helped give them this push to just coexist. I mean, they also are similar in a lot of ways. And they also, um, are really, really open minded, loving people. Once you kind of like drop the ego or drop the, like, this could be weird. Uh, Vibe. There was no reason for them not to connect.

F: That's awesome. And it is possible for the awkwardness to fade away with constant interaction. I assume that was the way it happened, right?

T: Yeah. I mean, I started realizing that it was like, a problem. You know, we were invited to a friend's house for, like, a Christmas dinner situation, and I went with Abe and my daughter, and J was invited as well. I would, like, pass Abe in the hallway, and he would think that I was avoiding him to be with J and vice versa. And I was like, this is ridiculous. I can't even enjoy events at friends houses because I'm so concerned with both of your feelings all the time. You, too, need to take responsibility for your own feelings. And, like, I need to just, like, be free in these environments. Can't consume me to the point where I'm not even enjoying things. Otherwise, what's the point of any of this?

M: Yeah, I resonate with that a lot because I went through something similar with the structure that I had before Logan and I broke up. And it ended up being a very isolating experience. You know, I had my nesting partner, my primary being Logan, and then I'm dating this guy on the side that I wanted to also be a primary and didn't really understand that you can't have two primaries. That is a relationship anarchy in that sense. But, um, I did feel for a long time that it was more like parallel relationships, and that wasn't working for me. And I can see how difficult that can be, especially when they do start interacting with each other that know, this awkwardness that's there. I could sense that it was there at first. And the more it was happening, the more that they did see each other and were around each other, the less awkward it was. And the more that they were able to accept each other and kind of support each other as well.

T: Uh, it's just easier. You kind of have to explain it to them like, you're making this situation much harder for yourselves. Um, and if you want this to be easy and if you want this to be fulfilling, uh, you want want this to bring you happiness, then you got to cut out the bullshit and just make that effort. Once I kind of put it in the ball in their court, it really started to change. I m was like, I'm not going toa be responsible for this anymore. It would be like, why don't you tell J this? And J would be like, why don't you tell Abe this? And I was like, how about you tell each other? M I Am no longer going toa play this game of telephone. You have something to say to each other. Say it to each other.

F: Yeah.

M: Cause that gets lost in translation as well, where you are then having to voice the concerns or the thoughts of one person to the other and that you can get somewhat of the story right. But it's not as good as them, um, just discussing it on their own.

T: Yeah. And like, at the end of the day, they were both feeling insecure when three of us would be at events with each other. And I was like, it would be just easier if you would be like, hey, J, um, I'm gonna spend a little bit of alone time with Tarynn Um, is that okay with you?

F: And do they do that now?

T: Now, in the beginning now it sort of just kind of is very natural. And there's not this inferiority complex. There's not this fear that one relationship means more to me than the other. So there's less of that kind of friction there. Like they're not fighting for my attention. You know, like they both trust that they're going to get it.

F: Yeah. That's awesome. Um, I'm glad to hear that because I feel like when maybe the first time they meet or the first time two partners meet, the awkwardness that's there might feel like it's never going to go away. But it sounds like it does go away. You know, I mean, just like expl. Anything. Ye.

M: Yeah, just like exploring non-monogamy just between a couple too. You know, there is this discovery phase of like, okay, this is uncomfortable to me. Uh, or is this okay? Is that okay? And it's constantly checking in with each other. And then eventually it's just like, oh, I know that making out with people at a party is fine, and I don't have to check in with my partner every single time. And that just comes with time and with experience. While you guys are getting used to.

T: It, end with active communication. Like, burying these things and not confronting it doesn't help the problem. This goes with the territory. You have to be a really good communicator for it to work.

F: Do you feel like, um, you've learned some skills also from your patients maybe, or the other way around, that your non-monogamous personal life has informed your practice?

T: Oh, it totally informs my practice. I have the ability to understand this dynamic, uh, more from just kind of studying it. Right. Like I'm living it definitely informs that. And also, um, sure, my clients teach me things all the time. Um, I might resonate with some of the problems that they're experiencing and take that with me into my relationships and into session as well.

M: Yeah. And I'd like to talk about that more as far as your practice goes, um, because I think that having someone who does see clients that have all types of alternative lifestyles can be helpful. So what do you say to people that are looking into therapy or are curious about, you know, getting help for themselves?

T: I would say that all couples who are, uh, thinking about opening up or are going to be in an non-monogamous relationship, I would recommend that they see a therapist to, um, be able to have that psychoeduc education and that knowledge from somebody who's an expert in it, as well as perhaps lives that, um, in a safe space. In New York City, there are a fair amount of therapists that specialize in no, uh, monogamy. You know, oftentimes, um, they become familiar through maybe working with one client who's non-monogamous experiencing themselves with that, and then kind of continuing. There are texts and things of that nature that kind of do educate therapists about how to work with this dynamic. But I think it helps to, uh, practice that in your life because it's more normalized when it's kind of in your own life than if you're kind of learning about those dynamics through your clients and then studying about it.

M: Yeah. And I think that just kind of playing both sides too, because a lot of therapists have clients that go through a lot of trauma that they haven't experienced themselves and they still have to learn how to relate or how to be able to speak on it, even if they haven't experienced it.

T: Absolutely.

M: Myself, I would prefer to work with someone if I was to go into therapy, which I'm definitely thinking about it, um, to speak with someone who has experienced that. Cause I feel like it is more relatable. But at the same time I don't think it is a necessity.

T: It's not a necessity. And I would say that there are tons of qualified clinicians who work with non-monogamous couples who do not practice it themselves.

F: You are re so wonderful Tarynn and I really like you and I feel like you have a lot of great insights. So I'm so glad, uh, you came. Um, but before we kind of start wrapping up the conversation, um, can you tell us what your advice would be to someone who's just like starting to dip their toes into the water of non-monogamy or who might think they're interested or just like beginning to explore.

M: Someone who is polycurious of course.

T: I would say the truth will set you free. Live your truth, communicate your truth. Don't be afraid to go for it and really ask for what you need. I think people are too afraid, and that could be because of the stigma. But if your foundation is solid, then this idea of radical honesty and communication should make things easier.

M: That seems to be a recurring theme for a lot of the advice.

F: Yeah, yeah. And, you know, also, not everyone is willing to put in that work and that communication.

T: Well, then you're not ready to be poly.

F: Yeah, and that's. That's okay too, you know, but, um, yeah, it's definitely key. So. Yes, thank you so much for joining us. Is there anything else you'd like to add?

T: Um, yeah, I guess I would say that I have professionally a few slots open for couples or individuals who are interested in exploring. Non-monogamy and polyamory. Sign me up a little bit more. Um, and if you're interested in learning more about my work or working together, you can follow a link in the podcast and get at me.

F: Yeah, for sure. We'll include those links. And I hope that there are people out there that'looking for some guidance that are, like, benefiting from finding you in the podcast or outside. I definitely have benefited already. So thank you for coming to Polycurious

M: Yes. Thank you so much.

T: Thank you. It was fun.

F: That's it for today's episode, if you elect it. It would mean the world to us if you shared this episode with a friend, with a lover, or even a family member. If you want to connect with us, follow us @PolycuriousPodcast on Instagram or write to us polycuriouspodcast@gmail.com see you all next week.