Jon: It's really important to, as quickly as possible, recognizing when you're in a triggered state, finding in the most supportive and loving way possible with your partner to say, hey, we're in this situation. We're in a negative cycle. And then shifting from we're fighting each other and standing on opposite sides to we're actually standing next to each other and we're fighting the negative cycle.

Fernanda: Hey, everyone, it's Fer, your host. Welcome to the first episode of Monocurious. As you guys know, Polycurious is all about sharing examples of different relationship dynamics we can relate and learn from. And as much as monogamous people have learned from polycurious guests in the past couple of seasons, I believe we all have things to learn from monogamous relationships as well. And this is why I partnered with my friend Ava, to launch this mini series.

Ava, why don't you share how we got here?

Ava: Hi, everyone. I am so grateful and excited to be working on this series together. So in April of last year, I was at a wedding discussing my dating life with one of our dear friends, Ruben. We spoke about the challenges women in our community face when dating and desiring committed partnership. We discussed how monogamy is not often the default in our community and perhaps a little harder to get to. He said to me, you know, Fer's podcast Polycurious. I was like, yeah, I want to make a podcast called Monocurious. I squealed. I loved the idea. Instantly, it felt like something I was made for, because prior to this conversation, I had spent a lot of time reflecting on dating culture in New York City. Openness, researching relationship dynamics, and ideating on ways I could improve the experience for everyone, which actually later led to creating a dating event.

F: Months later, I was camping with some friends, and someone mentioned Ruben and Ava were jokingly talking about Monocurious. I thought, okay, they for sure must have something interesting to say as monogamous people surrounded by an open community. So I decided that I wanted to interview them for Polycurious.

A: When Fer said, I'd love to interview you guys. Instantly, a strike of inspiration hit. I looked up Fer and asked, why don't we do this together? A, uh, mini series? She said, yes. And in a nutshell, that is how Monocurious was born. We've set out to explore what does monogamy look like in the 21st century. As a generation of divorced parents, financially independent women, and contraception, our relationship dynamics are shifting. Don't have to pursue monogamy in the same way the generation previous to us did. We can forge our own path. And as a woman in our community dating in New York City, I've had some experience with openness and alternative relationship dynamics. But truthfully, it's left me feeling sad and lacking security. There's always been this inner conflict, though, because from my experience witnessing my parents, I logically know that being with one person forever doesn't totally add up. So where I've come to at this point in my life is desiring to build a secure foundation with a partner, starting with monogamy and seeing where the rest takes me. I guess you could say I'm monocurious.

F: So for this series, we wanted to talk to people who are consciously choosing monogamy, but are still defying convention and doing monogamy in a way that feels right for them.

A: In this episode, we had the pleasure of writing upstate to chat with our friends Sue and Jon. We talked about how their upbringing and community influenced their choice to be monogamous and how they structured their relationship.

F: Sue and Jon also tell us how they met just four months before the pandemic and about the quick journey that led them to where they are today. They became exclusive not long after their first date and married exactly one year after they met. When we joined them late last year, Sue was just six weeks away from having a baby.

A: And what we loved about the relationship is that despite going down what might seem a very conventional path, getting married, buying a house, having a baby, being in an open community, inspired them to allow space for their independence and focus on building trust and communication.

F: Today's episode will be interesting for people in all relationship styles because Sue and Jon provide great tips around what it means to work through traumas, which we all have to build a solid relationship foundation. Okay. I hope that you guys enjoy as much as we did. Here's our interview with Sue and Jon.

A: Hi, guys. Thank you so much for being here. Fer and I have been really looking forward to this and so excited to learn about your relationship and hear about all of your experiences.

F: Yeah, the whole drive up, we were like: "Oh, they're so great." We were, like, talking about what we might want to discuss, and we were like: "They're going to be great. They're going to be great."

A: And I know the history of your relationship and how you met and kind of the path that you've taken, and it's so beautiful, and it's such an inspiration, and I'm really, really excited and grateful that we get to share this with more people. So, why don't we get started about you guys telling us a little bit about yourself and your background, where you come from, and then how you met.

Sue: Hi, I'm Sue, and really happy to be here to have a chat with the both of you as a proud representative for monogamy. So I grew up in a very traditional, east asian chinese family. My parents have been together for 40 years, years, I think, and they were each other's first boyfriend, girlfriend, and, you know, dated and got married and very traditional path. And after we moved to America from Shanghai, our community was really largely very similar types of traditional nuclear chinese families around us, especially in our protestant church community. So, yeah, I would say I had a pretty typical first generation immigrant, upbringing, a lot of focus on family values and the importance of family and education. Very stable childhood, across two different cultures, both american and chinese.

So that I think, really contributed a lot to the reasons why I really prioritize, not just marriage, but the idea of family, around you. So, yeah, so that's kind of how I grew up. How about you?

J: So, yeah, hi, I'm Jon. Really happy to be here as well. So I was born and raised in Detroit, Michigan, to a pretty traditional, mostly, italian american type family. So my dad's parents were both immigrants. They came over in the early 19 hundreds. We were raised Catholic so we used to go to church every Sunday. I went to catholic school for first and second grade. And, yeah, my relationships in the past, yeah, I would refer to myself as a serial monogamist. So if I look at my relationship history, I have a bunch of relationships that were two or three years long. And from the time I started at 16, I had a three year relationship, yeah, for forever, basically was two years or three years. Um, and then finally met Sue back in 2019.

F: Yeah. How about you, Sue? How were your relationships before meeting Jon?

S: Yeah, I think I really lucked out in my relationships, especially early on. I was actually with my high school boyfriend for like, six years, I think from junior year of high school all the way through all of college. So I actually never dated in college, even though I went to NYU and definitely made use of new, uh, York's nightlife at the time. But I had a faithful boyfriend and I, we were very faithful to each other, the entire time in college. And I think in a lot of ways, it was a very grounding experience to be with someone where we had a deep friendship and a mutual respect for each other. And that very tender puppy love. So through a time, especially in college, where there's a lot of social experimentation and figuring out who you are having that grounding force of a relationship that just felt very supportive of each other, was really wonderful, I think, for me, and I think also set the tone for my later relationships in life, too. And I enjoyed dating and I was always drawn more to the deeper connection of a relationship over going wide and experimenting with a lot of people. I think that's both a combination of my first experience with dating, which lasted so long and was in many respects just like really positive and nice. Aand then also, again, just modeling after what I grew up with, with my parents, who are just a very loving, cute couple themselves. So around the time when I met Jon, I had actually just gotten out of a relationship. And Jon was meant to be a practice date so I could learn relearn how to talk to boys again. So it was a low stakes Monday night taco after work. And what was meant to be just a quick in and out, turned into, I think, a 13 hours, 14, I think, 14 hours sleepover. Yeah. So the best lay plans, right, Jon.

A: When you guys went on your first date together, where were you coming from? What was your mindset?

J: So for the prior couple of years, maybe three years, I had decided. So at about 35, I checked in with myself. So this was about actually four years before her and I met. Did I want to have a family? Did I want to get married, did I want to have kids? And yeah, I checked in and the answer was yes. And so I had started looking for that person back in maybe like three, four years ago. And so I had dated a couple of people since making that decision that were longer term relationships. They didn't work out for a variety of different reasons. And then I think I was maybe four, five, six months back into the looking for somebody. Yeah, I was going on dates, trying to meet people. And, yeah, just that one fateful swipe. Right? And, yeah, a few texts back and forth. Funny. I was living in Brooklyn at the time. She messaged me on a Saturday night on the way home from a dinner, and she lived on the Upper West Side, and I tried to convince her to come meet me that Saturday night and she said: "You're crazy. I'm on the Upper West Side, you're in Brooklyn. There's no way. Why don't you just go meet a girl at the bar? Where you are right now?" And I said: "Well, call it a hunch, I don't know, but I feel like there's something here. And this is only from text messages."

F: Oh, wow. And you literally said, I feel something right now without having even met. Yeah.

J: Yeah. And so anyway, I tried to lure her in with a bunch of different, like: "There's this bar that had, um, cheese balls that you could get at the bar" which is pretty random. So I was, like, pitching all these things I could think of. Ultimately, she said, no. I said, okay, fine. And then the next day, we agreed on the Sunday. We agreed on having tacos the following Monday. And so yeah. And that was the fateful 14 hours tacos.

F: Yeah. And this was, you mentioned before, right before the pandemic. Right?

J: So it's December of 2019, so about three months before the pandemic started.

F: Yeah.

A: I am also really curious, like, what made it so different and special for both of you in that, you know, to have that 14 hours day. I'm curious about what you were feeling or thinking and how it evolved from there.

S: Yeah. So I think on my end, I had always had. It felt like two halves of my personality. There's the, you know, the good girl who always did everything that I was supposed to do, went to the schools I was supposed to, and got the jobs I was supposed to to fulfill, you know, the very, like, typical expectations of my asian family. And then there's the other half that always felt like there was my own path that I wanted to go down. And from my later twenties onwards, I had discovered the Burning Man community, which felt so aligned with just this need for connection and discovery and play and exploration that I felt like I would- I didn't even know I was missing until I just met these wonderful people, including the two of you. And so then my life became again, that dichotomy where there's this group of incredibly loose and open minded individuals. And then within that, I still crave the stability and, connection of having a deep, committed relationship, amongst people for whom commitment, is not necessarily always a priority. And my relationships tended all to be in the more, you know, I would call it the normie world of people who kind of have stable, like, finance jobs and, you know, I'm an attorney and the good on paper type of person that you're supposed to date. And then there were the, like, whackadoo friends that I felt like just really understood me on another level. But then that community lacked the sort of stability that I sought in my relationships. And so going into this with Jon, the relationship I had just gotten out of was with a perfect on paper finance exec, right? Like your standard private equity bro, from Manhattan, who checked a lot of boxes. But ultimately it was not like going to be it. And from the first conversation with Jon, I think we had a very quick, like, what you grew up, whatever. But then he really dove into not just, you know, where he went to school and what he does, but who he is as a person.

And his, like, spiritual journey, his self work, all these ways in which he's trying to really get to know himself and expand his consciousness in a way that I felt was such a reflection of my own desire to create stability in my life and to be responsible to my family, but at the same time, chart my own path in living, this life on my own terms. And it just felt like there was this deep understanding and mutual knowing with each other right away. And I had never really met anyone else who embodied sort of both sides of that coin until Jon. And we just didn't stop talking to each other for hours and hours. And even in the brief moments where we paused and it was silent, it just felt so comfortable. Right away I almost caught myself thinking like: "Oh, you've just met this person" but I felt like I've known him for forever. Yeah.

F: Any comments on that, Jon?

J: Yeah, well, thank you. Nailed a lot of it for me as well. So great job.

S: Thanks.

J: Yeah, it's ah, especially the last part around, just feeling easy, or at ease. I didn't feel like I had anything to prove. I wasn't trying to put on any kind of a show or posturing or anything. And she's a very beautiful, successful, intelligent woman. Yeah, I think maybe in the past, like years ago, maybe it would have been something more of like: "Oh, I want to see what I can do to try to win her over or impress her or something." But there was none of that. And it just felt really easy. And the feeling of having known each other for a long time. And yeah, it was 14 hours, and it wasn't a, I would say what can be a more typical New York dating thing of like, okay, let's try to get this person in bed as quickly as possible. Like, that just was just not there. That wasn't the goal. Didn't care about that.

I did invite her to come over, but in all honesty, and she knows this, it was to listen to music. So that we could actually have some time just by ourselves to just hang out and relax. And we just hung out for 6, 7 hours at my apartment, listening to music and talking. There was a little bit of the other stuff too, but that was. Yeah, but that was definitely not the priority. And so it was just a very welcome shift in how things felt.

A: Yeah. I take it that you guys were also just in such grounded states of being yourself. And at least from Jon, from your perspective of, you were like: "I just feel something here." And for you, you were kind of like: "I'm just gonna go like, check this guy out and practice." And you know. Cause you weren't thinking so hard about it. Maybe there was like this like susceptibility for just connection. I have found personally, when I have no expectations, I'm just more successful in my dates and connecting. So, okay, so you guys met, had this wonderful first date, and you spent all this time together. Now let's fast forward to the pandemic and the evolution of your relationship to getting engaged. I believe very within a short time frame.

S: Mhm.

A: So, yeah, I'm curious to learn about that progression.

J: So much curiosity on this podcast.

A: It is called Monocurious.

J: So we went very, very quickly from this first date to seeing each other two or three other times to I think within maybe like ten days or something. Just having the conversation, which in New York usually either never happens or takes, I don't know, like six months or years of are you seeing other people? What do we want to do with this? Um, and we just very quickly agreed that we're going to focus on each other. And so, other conversations that I was having, just, that was kind of it. And yeah, then we just focused on each other from that point.

S: I think we both mutually had that conversation. So I think it was less about like kind of setting some rules around whether we could see other people and more of like a declaration of our mutual, interest and intent, which can feel very vulnerable and scary to Jon's point, especially in a city like New York, where I think there's a little bit more of a tendency to want to be more guarded and keep your options open and not show your soft underbelly and to actually tell someone that, you know that you feel emotionally invested. But it felt like a very safe and, yeah, it just felt like a very safe space, I think, between us to have that conversation even early on. And I think we both also respectively were coming from a pretty, well, resourced place individually, where I think even if that conversation hadn't gone well necessarily, it wouldn't have felt like a fundamental rejection of our worthiness as people or something like that. So, I think it's a combination of both our interactions made it where it felt safe to declare our interests so early on, and then also just respectively. We were in a pretty good place psychologically, ourselves. So. Yeah.

F: And then the pandemic.

S: And then the pandemic hit, three months later, we did manage to get a whirlwind trip in, before the pandemic hit. Jon very romantically flew me out to Paris.

F & A: Oh, wow.

S: Yeah. He was on a work trip.

J: On a whim.

S: On a whim for a weekend. He was doing like a, trip in like Dubai, Paris and Egypt. Oh, yeah. Yeah. In Cairo.

J: Yeah. So I invited her to Paris and Cairo.

S: That was like.

J: Pretty intriguing combination of,

S: Yeah.

A: That's so cool.

F: Better than cheese balls at a bar.

S: Exactly. Way better than a dive bar in Williamsburg.

J: Maybe that cheese balls in Egypt. I don't know.

S: Yeah. It was actually so cool. It was in February of 2020, so I was training for the LA Marathon at the time. Jon had actually started, like, training with me. And so we ran all around Paris together. We did like 13 miles or something like that in Paris. And then flew into Cairo. Got to see the pyramids on like one of the two days a year that it rains. And so the pyramids were completely empty and it was just us and like a few camels, which was wild to get to experience. And then got back to met up in LA for the marathon weekend. To the marathon. Jon cheered me on and he got along so well with my friends as well. And then we came back to New York and everything shut down. So and I think at that point we sort of had a decision to make of what are we going to do now? And so

Jon says that, like, I kind of just moved myself in, which is not untrue. I guess I did have my apartment the entire time and I just started slowly kind of like bringing more stuff over to his apartment and LOL. And after a while, it seemed like I was just there every night. And I guess at some point we did have a conversation about it and it made sense to hunker down in your place with the convenience of my apartment. So if we did get into a conflict or fight or something like that, we could always take some time apart at our respective places and yeah and then we just started going through this intense experience, like, together.

J: Yeah, yeah, it was a really, um, yeah, really amazing, but also challenging time. And, yeah, it was interesting because before the pandemic started and before we ended up kind of just deciding to bunker together we both had really kind of crazy, dynamic, geographically dispersed lives where we were traveling all over the place and doing all this stuff. And then suddenly, like, overnight, almost literally, it went to just one spot. And it was, yeah, it was really fortunate and amazing that we say this in a very loving way stuck together in that situation. We decided to make it, I guess, all about just the two of us, which was really interesting and powerful and risky

A: Because at that point, you guys were four months into your relationship, and then you decided to bunker and be together. And that's a lot, I think, for the first, a new relationship, right? To spend that much time together. But it sounded like this almost also contributed to propelling your relationship forward and the growth that you guys experienced because you had a lot of time together.

J: A lot of time together.

S: Well, actually, we did the math and we did an average amount of time in a normal world. Right. Um, how many days would you go on? How many times would you hang out with a person that you're dating a week and then average that throughout the year? And so, like, about how much, how many hours would you be spending in a typical relationship, versus how much time we were spending together? And we realized that it was just such a multiple. We were literally squeezing years into months. Fortunately, I think both Jon and I are drawn to intensity in life experiences in general.

So for us, I don't think. I would not advise this, I think for most people. But I think it worked out for us because we're both kind of crazy in the same way, in that sense.

A: Yeah, same type of weird. I love it. And so what happened after that? Like, you know, things started opening up. Like, we started going out and I know you guys got engaged fairly quickly.

J: Yeah. I feel like a lot of it to sound very woo woo is being shepherded by the by the universe kind of just pushing us or guiding us into this. In this direction. So, having this opportunity to spend all this time together, and also just to share with the audience everything was not just beautiful and perfect and amazing. We went through multiple, pretty big challenges even before the pandemic where we were getting to know each other and certain things happened. So definitely stuff to work through. And I feel like the pandemic helped bring us together to create this opportunity for us to be able to get to know each other better and work through some of these challenging things as well. So I think there's a whole other layer of beauty to this process. So that was one really big indicator of you're on the right path. And then, yeah, so what would have been Burning Man 2020, it got canceled. We were actually, we were all set to go. We were going to go together. But when Burning Man was canceled a group of friends of mine who had gone to Burning Man for many years, I almost went with them a few years prior, they hosted a friendship Burn for 25, 30 people, something like that, in this beautiful property in upstate New York. This was in September, so we had known each other for, what, nine months at that point. I knew at that point that she was the person. And so figuring out when I was going to ask her to spend the rest of her life with me.

So I actually was planning on doing it on our one year anniversary when we met, which was in December, but in September, it was just this perfect, amazing series of events and experiences. And just spontaneously, we were one of the big nights. We converted this yurt into, um, this beautiful, you know, dance party space. And we were basically just both laying on the laying on the dance floor, relaxing, looking at each other. And in my mind it's like, what are you? Like, yeah, why wait any longer? There's really no good reason. I didn't have the ring yet. And so I just. Yeah, I just looked at her and I said, would you like to spend the rest of your life with me?

A: I'm getting chills.

J: Yep.

S: I said yes.

A: It's so sweet.

J: Yeah.

S: Yeah.

J: And so we were instead of getting engaged on our anniversary, we actually ended up getting married.

A: Wow.

F: On your anniversary?

S: Yeah.

A: So it was, it was one year.

S: It was one year. Ah, yeah.

F: I'm curious because you mentioned the sound journey.

S: Yeah, it was a, it was my first group ceremony, I think. So. Same for you. Same for you. And it was so interesting how, you know, in these ceremonies, you're blindfolded and you're having your own experience, but in a group setting. And for Jon and I, we both had this experience of, like, connecting with each other, you know, in this, like, super deep way, feeling like basically we were, like, spiritually married, effectively. And coming out of it, like, sharing that with each other was just very, yeah, it was just, like, really profound that we could have such parallel experiences together. It felt like a really cathartic, joyous experience overall. And it was a really wonderful group of people as well, in really beautiful, stunning nature after so much time in the city, in an apartment, cooped up together. Yeah. And it just really felt like the beginning of something really unique.

J: Yeah. So, and I can rewind a little bit more to give a little bit of additional, helpful context. So on the ceremony stuff and doing journey work. And so my original intention for going into this type of work was trying to figure out why I had decided that I did want to find somebody and to get married and to have a family. But there was some kind of blockers that would just get in the way, so be dating somebody longer term relationship. It'd be heading in a really good direction, but then something would happen for me where I would just get kind of stuck. So I had a journey around trying to understand this better. What came up was, things around, trust and being able to be vulnerable and just really open up and let myself be in that kind of a situation. And a few months after that, I ended up meeting Sue, which was this really, really amazing thing. And so part of our process of getting to know each other better, and in this sound ceremony experience that we had, was feeling like I could rely on her and trust her in a deeper way that I really hadn't allowed myself to do with other people. And we don't have to get into all the details, but stuff with my, like, growing up with my parents, there's just a lot of challenges and a lot of things that I learned and a lot of things that I just wasn't comfortable with. And it's very hard for me to trust people. And so some of the challenges that we had early in the relationship were related to trust. And, you know, I did some things probably subconsciously where I kind of, like, acted out, which was damaging to the relationship. And so we kind of, you know, ended up in a situation where there was, yeah, some, some challenges that we, that we really had to work through. And we've come, and I'm really proud of us for this. We've come so far in the last three years on our ability to communicate and especially talking about difficult things. It's been a big challenge for me my, my entire life, and it's something that we were just, neither one of us were very good at, when we first met, and so a lot of the issues were around communication, too, where a thing would happen and we'd try to talk about it, and one of us would get really angry, and the other person would get defensive. And we just kind of formed this negative cycle. And we've been working at it really hard for the last three years. And especially in the last few months, we've been going to a couples therapists. She's been fantastic. And we've really made big strides in getting better at how we communicate.

S: Yeah.

F: Yeah. That's amazing. I feel like a lot of couples have that issue, right? Like, lack of communication is the most prevalent one in any sort of relationship, and you can get stuck in your ways. It just kind of becomes, like, automatic, like this, like, defensiveness. And getting out of that is very difficult because you get used to it, right. So then it almost becomes, like second nature. Luckily, I haven't had that much with Seth, but I remember with, like, my previous partner, it just be like I didn't want to act in the way I was acting, and I was, like, noticing that we were, like, falling into the same discussion, the same dynamic. But once you kind of get used to it, it's, like, really, really hard to kind of, like, break out of that. I'm not sure if. Do you have any tips for people who might be struggling with that or any resources that your therapist may have provided or what has worked for you to make that better?

S: Oh, my gosh. Well, first of all, I would just say that I think therapy is a wonderful tool to be employed whenever and not just when you feel like there's a problem or something that you're unhappy with in life. Because if you think about it, I mean, we've talked about the wonderful fairy tale of how we met and fell in love and how everything clicked, all of which is true, but that doesn't mitigate, like, the difficulty that comes with two individual human beings with totally different histories and personalities and, you know preconceived notions and bias, right? You want two totally separate entities to then come together. It's not easy. It's work, and it's hard, right? And it takes a lot of effort in order to. For that union to actually be functioning. You know, you're kind of just told: "Oh, well, if it's right, it's just supposed to be easy", which I think is not. Not necessarily true. So I think therapy is a really great tool to help you understand yourself better and sort of what is at the root of some of the behavior that's happening. And then with couples therapy, it's been really, really helpful for us just as a resource to be committed every single week to come together to understand our specific patterns and dynamics. Our therapist, our couples therapist is specifically an EFT (Emotionally Focused Therapy) focused and a Hakomi trained therapist. So she does a lot of relationship dynamics. And then at the same time checking in with ourselves, like, individually on, like, what is your body telling you is happening, which is particularly helpful for someone like me because I tend to be very intellectually focused and rational, which is not helpful when it comes to feelings. So, even if therapy itself is maybe not accessible to you, I think one of the most foundational lessons that Jon and I have learned in our work together is that in a conflict, how we are both showing up once we're in a conflict is not a reflection of the other person. It is more a reflection of the history and the traumas that we carry and ourselves individually. So, for example, if I point out, something that Jon did that was suboptimal or hurtful to me, and he. Gets really.

F: Suboptimal. I love it.

S: Yeah. Trying to couch that. If I point out something to Jon that he did that was not great to me and he gets really defensive. I think I used to take it as he doesn't care about the impact on me or he doesn't care about me. And that's why he's just trying to, like, pawn off blame. But what I've learned is, like, that defensiveness actually has nothing to do with me. And it's more of a reflection of this lifetime of defenses that he's built up, you know, in order to protect himself. Because when he was a child, he just felt really, really unsafe whenever he was criticized. And then for me, when I'm getting after Jon for something, I think he's also just come to realize that it's not so much a reflection of how I feel towards him. And more a reflection of the fact that when I was a child,

I really didn't feel heard at all. I didn't feel like there was space for my emotions. And so now, as an adult, I have a tendency to have really strong reactions to things. And I'm extremely triggered when I feel like I'm not being heard. So I think the more grace and understanding we can extend to each other to realize that how much it's not about us and how much it's about our histories, then we're able to kind of put down our respective arms and instead just sort of get down to the root of the issue instead, and to kind of show each other more compassion and empathy. So we're working on it, but I think that idea of, like, just taking a step back and realizing it's not really about you is really helpful.

A: Yeah, this is,something I feel like Fer and I were talking about earlier. The self understanding of where you're coming from and the awareness of higher level, where the other person is coming from is so critical. And it's beautiful that you guys have that at the top of your mind, that you're flexing that muscle to have that consideration for the other person and for yourself. The compassion for yourself and the other, that's really beautiful. Jon, something you said earlier really intrigued me about working through trust. It's something I definitely resonate with in terms of getting closer to people. And I'm just curious how you guys work through that trust.

J: Yeah, a few things. So, one, it's really about learning that you can trust somebody through a series of behaviors or avoidance of other behaviors over an extended period of time. So we've been at this for, yeah, for a really long time, for three years. And it's really about actions and not words, right? So you can say a million and one things, but it's really about, yeah. Backing it up with actions. And this is not, when you say trust, it's not about specific to like, relationship dynamics and you know, interacting with other people or jealousy and stuff like that. That is a small piece of it, but it's much bigger than that. And for me, with my family when I was a little kid, it's about, can you rely on somebody?

Is somebody going to be there for you and have your back? And do you have to be the strong one all the time? And that's something that I think we've definitely learned is that because we both carry this of feeling like we need to, be really strong and hold everything for everybody all the time. And we've been learning this slowly over time that that's actually not true. And she can fall apart and have a terrible day or week or whatever, and that's okay. And I'm not going to love her any less. I'm going to, if anything, it actually gives me an opportunity to step in and, like, hold her up more and then the same thing in the other direction. And so as we've just had things happen, we will fight ourselves in, like: "Oh, no, I'm trying to hold it together and then just getting more and more comfortable with, you know what? I can just let it fall apart." And not only will the person not criticize me or will I sort of lose standing with them and come across as weaker and therefore less desirable, but it's actually a really positive thing.

A: Yeah. And trust that they're there.

J: Yeah. And relearning that is, has been a really, a really big challenge, a couple of other ones. So I completely agree with Sue. It's been a huge thing for us to have a couples therapist. And one of the things that, in working with her we've been able to understand and also with our own individual therapists, is when you're in conflict or when you're feeling triggered, you are never going to be able to make progress in the communication and resolve problems in that state. So it's really important to, as quickly as possible, recognize that you are in a triggered state. This is a very hard thing to do. Very, very hard thing to do. We've been practicing and practicing, and we are still very much in learning mode. But it's creating some kind of safe space and separation. And also how you create the safe space and separation is so important because you can also cause a lot more damage if you're pushing away hard from your partner. An example, I've done this in the past of Sue. We're in a triggered state. Okay, let's take a break. I'm going to go in the other room. That can actually be triggering for her because of some of the stuff that's happened to her. And there's things around separation or abandonment type things. And when you're in a triggered state, you're more susceptible to other things, triggering you even more deeply. So recognizing when you're in a triggered state, finding in the most supportive and loving way possible with your partner to say: "Hey, we're in this situation. We're in a negative cycle" and then shifting from: "We're fighting each other and standing on opposite sides to we're actually standing next to each other" and we're fighting the negative cycle.

F: Yeah, I love that. I think that team effort mentality is so important. Like, it's not you against me, it's us against the issue. And I try to remember that as well. But just a quick note on going to a room, that's actually something that I do with Seth. So it might not work in your relationship because of Sue's specific triggers, but I sometimes when I feel like I'm being irrational, and I know that if I speak my mind, I'll probably not say the things in the best way possible. Sometimes I literally just go to the room, lock myself, meditate, and I'm just like: "Babe, I need to meditate. I'll be back." And then once I do that, I come back in a completely different state, and I'm able to do that. So that's something that people can do. And as you mentioned, just recognizing in the moment, communicating it to your partner. I think those are great tips.

J: Yeah, it's really important. And I mentioned at the beginning of this, the couples therapists. I would recommend that to anybody. But also, it's really important to be doing the self work at the same time, so not putting all of the pressure on the relationship and the couples therapist. So Sue and I both have our own respective personal therapists that we do work with. And so it's a really nice combination where we'll have a couple session, and then I can actually take things from that, reflect on that more. Maybe I'll journal, maybe I'll talk to some friends, but then really talking to a therapist about that as well. And so it allows you to keep making progress.

A: On the topic of trust, but the segue of relationships with others. And you mentioned that you hadn't had that much exposure to different relationship dynamics, but as you became more closer to this alternative community, Burning Man community, that's more present. And Sue, I know you had mentioned that you had experience with that and found it maybe a little less committal, but potentially because that's in a social setting, it's more fun and ethereal. But as you guys were forming your relationship and exposed to these different relationship dynamics, I'm curious if you had conversations around your choice to be monogamous or non-monogamy in general. Abroad 'cause we have a lot of friends that choose that, and it's beautiful. So I'm curious what your experience was as a couple together.

S: Yeah, it's definitely been interesting. I've jokingly referred to us as the lone floating island of monogamy and a sea of fluidity.

F: That's gonna be the title of the episode.

S: And it's so interesting to be, shifted, right? To have kind of everything turned upside down where in the Muggle normie world, right? This is kind of just. You don't even really have to explicitly talk about it because the assumed standard is just monogamy. Whereas in this sort of very exploratory and alternative community, we are the exception to the rule, if anything. Right? And so I think, first of all, I would just say that it's been hugely illuminating to learn about relationships and communication and clear communication and the importance of understanding where your triggers are coming from and where your feelings are coming from, because you can't sort of rely on the crutch of: "Well, you shouldn't. I don't like you talking to that girl because we are in a committed relationship, and so therefore you're not allowed to." So when relationships are opened up, what we've observed is the partners in those relationships, if anything, have to be more aware of when a negative emotion occurs. What is the source of that? So they can talk through it and figure it out. Because you can't kind of just say, like: "Well, I just don't like it." So, first of all, I think that's been really illuminating just to learn such generally applicable lessons around communication and understanding and caring for one another. In all different types of relationship dynamics and something that's been really great. And then I think we have also kind of just talked about it, like: "Well, is this something that we should consider? Because it seems like everyone around us" and I think in those conversations we've had I think John and I, well, I'll speak for myself, but I mentioned before that to me, like, stability and a really deep connection with my partner is something that's just really foundational and important to me. And I definitely have the experience where when I'm really in love with someone like Jon, I don't really feel an attraction to anyone else. And that's actually how I know if I'm actually in love with someone versus I just really like them or something. It's almost like everything else just kind of fades away and my focus is on just this one person. And it's almost as if my psyche is only really capable of being so committed and all in with one person. And that's it. And maybe that's a reflection of the extreme nature of, like, my personality, where it's definitely an all or nothing, mentality that I have towards life in general and including relationships. And so we've talked about it, but I don't think I, I think I've been curious in an almost like, intellectual way of like: "What would it be like?" But never to the point where I think either of us, like, felt really, really deeply called to actually opening up our marriage, with, again, the recognition that life is really long and, you know, people change and evolve over time, and hopefully we can change and evolve, like, in the long term. And I think by removing a lot of the negative, traditional judgment around non traditional relationship models, I think we don't view it as somehow one is superior to the other, but rather this is not it for us now. But who's to say it won't be in the future?

F: Yeah.

J: My turn.

S: Yeah.

J: Okay. Yeah, it's actually interesting, so similar to Sue, every relationship that I've been in in the past, once I'm with that person, just everything kind of fades, fades away as I've reflected back on these relationships many years later. Yeah, it's almost like there's a switch that flips. So I meet this person, this is it, switch flips. And then we run our course, and there's never really any interest in other people. Something happens, our relationship ends, and the switch flips again. And then it's like there's people again, like other, other people out there. And I would end up just meeting somebody else, and we would go back into another sort of monogamous relationship. And that's always felt really good and really comfortable for me. So, before meeting her and meeting a lot of members of this community I really couldn't have even told you, like, here, I wasn't even aware of alternative relationship types. And so as I got introduced to more of these, yeah, Sue and I recall we had at least a couple of conversations in the first, maybe year of us, of us, like, having been dating, of, oh, this is actually interesting. Is this of interest to you? And, like, for me, I was also, there was a little bit, earlier on, a little bit of worry that maybe this is something that she's more interested in because she's been a part of this community and she didn't want to share that because she knew that I didn't have this part of me. And so, oh, there's a little bit of that fear, which kind of went away pretty quickly after we had these couple of conversations. Yeah. But for me, it's interesting, it's intriguing, but it's never been something, I don't feel like anything has ever been missing that I need to sort of have fulfilled outside, whether it's sexual or non sexual, all that said, pros and cons to everything in life and then exacerbated by COVID. So in a monogamous relationship, the amount of things that you are getting to have your needs met, it's all from essentially one person.

And then in COVID it got even tighter where literally everything in our lives needed to be either provided by ourselves or by Sue and vice versa for me. Yeah, in these relationships, it does put a lot of pressure on the other partner. Because we all have a lot of needs. And our respective intensities. We do really live life at an eleven all the time. And so there's a lot of like even more needs coming from that because of how, yeah, how fast and furious we do, we do live life. We've never tried an alternative relationship style. But you know, who knows? Is it a possibility? If we did have a different structure, would some of the things that were really challenging for us. And again, more on the non sexual side of things, of just our feelings and our emotions and just stuff that we're going through. Having her have to hold all that space and vice versa. That is, it's challenging.

A: Yeah. And I'm also curious you know, if so Jon and Sue are pregnant and you're about to expand your family. And I'm just curious if you think about the sustainability of that, of going at an eleven for each other. The sustainability of needing all your needs met and then once you have a baby and expand. I'm curious if you've thought that in the long term because you've kind of mentioned like this is what works for us now. And that's not to say in the future you couldn't revisit it. And it doesn't sound like you guys have necessarily needed that from your relationship. And curious if you've thought about the long term if you guys both feel that will work as you expand your family.

S: No, that's a great question. And it's definitely been really top of mind for us on the ways in which our relationship is going to have to evolve and adapt because we've been like so singularly focused on each other since we met, basically. And so I think a couple thoughts on that. Once COVID started loosening up and we started spending more time with our larger circles of friends and having other places to go in order to just have release. Like for me it would be things like going to a women's retreat or even just having a nice dinner with girlfriends and just spending some time apart. And we found actually every time we spent some time apart from each other to really have quality time with other people in our lives who are chosen family and we feel deep intimacy with albeit on a platonic level, we always come back to each other feeling even better, resourced, and are able to be better partners to each other. One of the, I think, saddest parts of COVID was we all felt so isolated from these spider webs of relationships that we maintained in our lives. And so for Jon and I, I think realizing that and reawakening to how many other important relationships we have in our lives and really just deepening those relationships again and connecting with those friends and connecting with our family again that was really helpful. And so going into this next stage, where we will have to really focus on our baby a lot and keep him alive and, you know, all those good things, I think, you know, there's a lot of ways you can prep for a baby's arrival. We've really focused in a lot on how do we build an infrastructure around us where we feel support. So we have told our friends, like, we love you. We hope you're, you know, you would never be bothering us to come. In fact, if anything, like, it'd be really great for you to check in and to call or anything, just so, we're not so, like, isolated in a little pot in ourselves.

F: Right? Because just for context, you guys just got a house upstate where we are right now, outside of the city, so your larger community is a little far away.

S: Yeah. But we've also channeled a lot of energy into building a local community as well, you know? And I think the thing that Jon and I try to be really intentional about is recognizing that we have a finite amount of time and energy and really being intentional now with where do we channel that time and energy? So we definitely invest a lot of that into people who are going through a similar phase, reconnecting with old friends who went off and had families. And we maybe grew apart a little bit, but now it's, like, a good time to come back to each other and to have the support and advice of more experienced parents, for example. And so now going into this go time of actually birthing this baby in.

F: Six weeks, by the way, in six weeks.

S: Oh, my gosh. I actually think we both feel pretty good about the number of resources that we can both tap into. I think we've also really strengthened and invested a lot into couples therapy and our relationship. Going into this phase, knowing that it's going to be a really big challenge in a lot of ways, but also just reminding ourselves that it's also going to be just the most amazing, wonderful, incomprehensibly happy time of our lives, observe this little life coming to the world. And we're so excited.

A: Yay!

S: And, yeah, and then just like, I think, yeah. The idea is that instead of focusing on like, the baby registry and having the right things, we've really just focused more on making sure that we have the right people in our lives so we don't end up in a situation where we're super isolated and just kind of like feeling really emotionally afraid and only having each other to lean on. And that's it. And on the topic of kids, something that I think would be really interesting is we talk a lot about how we want to be as parents. And both Jon and I mentioned that we grew up in fairly traditional nuclear family structures surrounded by other nuclear families. And, yeah, I definitely, I don't even think that there was a single same sex couple. And I knew like, of one single mom family, and that's it. But pretty much everyone around me looked like exactly the same cookie cutter, you know, like mom and dad, two point, like two kids, like kind of a vibe. And same thing for Jon. I think one thing we really appreciate about having this broader community around us is, you know, when our kids are kind of getting older and starting to observe different families around them, families with kids, families without kids, like villages, like, whatever it is, I think it's just going to be a really wonderful gift that they'll be able to not have a default idea of what a family looks like or a loving couple looks like, or even, maybe it's not even two people. And I think just having that space to explore and to observe and decide for themselves what resonates with them as opposed to perhaps what just is the default for them, I think would just be a really wonderful canvas. I think for our children to have to make choices for their own lives and to have all these aunties and uncles that they can ask questions to. Because I think so many people in this community have been really intentional about the choices that they've made or they've gone one path and then made another decision later on. And just those experiences, I think, are really valuable and not necessarily something that we can provide, but we want our kids to be able to have a very non judgmental and open minded view into all the different possibilities.

A: Yeah, I can relate to that in some ways. My parents were divorced, but I had my dad's partner ten years as a family member that helped raise me and our family friends. And I just had all these different examples of people from such different backgrounds, and I feel like it really contributed to my open mindedness. I think it's beautiful that you guys want that for baby Ju. And I think it'll be just really beautiful compliment to who you guys are. That balance, like you said, of having the grounding energy, but also wanting to forge your own path. I think this is a beautiful meld of what you described.

F: Yeah, yeah, that's beautiful. Well, to wrap up, what would you guys tell to a monocurious person? What message do you want to leave the listeners with?

J: So, yeah, definitely there's no one best way of doing anything, whether it's relationship type or the type of partner or career path or just anything in life, everything is a great possibility. And so just getting out there and exploring as many of these different options, as you can. Yeah, just really being thoughtful about everything. So as new information comes in, just like, for me, not being aware of alternatives to monogamy, like, once I got introduced to the possibility of these things, evaluating them, thinking about them, talking to my partner about them, and then ultimately just making the best decision for myself and for my partner. And, yeah, just surround yourself by as many diverse people and experiences as you can find. Yeah, I honestly believe that the more diverse the experiences and people you have around you, the richer your life is going to be in all aspects.

F: I love that.

S: Well said. I would just add that I don't think monogamy has to be a limitation. I think it can also create a container for deeper exploration of both your partnership and yourself. It could just be really wonderful and expansive as well.

F: Yeah, and what I like about your relationship is that you're monogamous, but you're still doing many things that polyamorous people do in this sense of trying to build community, being aware that you might need space, apart from one another, fulfilling your needs with other people, even if it's not your sexual needs, but with your friendships. And you can be monogamous and still have that sort of openness and enrichment in your life, you know? So I think that's really beautiful. And also just the way that you guys are self aware to be able to say, we are monogamous, we feel good this way, and we celebrate how other people are, but, you know, we can all live together, coexist, and not judge one another, but, like, learn from one another, just like we're doing right now with the, with the podcast.

A: And support each other and, yeah, I think it's I think it's really beautiful, because all of what you said is, like you said, the elements of learning from non-monogamy. I think that's what monogamy in the 21st century can be taking. Like, making it what we want. It doesn't have to be these traditional concepts that we've been learned, and we can also know that we can expand it from there, and we have the tools and options to contain the relationship if we need and, like, do whatever is healthy in that sense.

F: Yeah. Well, that was lovely. Thank you so much, guys. I really admire and, like, treasure your relationship and appreciate your honesty and your vulnerability. So thank you for being on the podcast.

A: Yeah, we really appreciate it, you guys. This was so lovely.

S: Yeah, thank you for having us. It was such a nice walk down memory lane, and, yeah, it was just, like, a really nice chance to reflect for us, too. So thanks for having us.

F: Thank you guys so much for listening to today's episode. I hope that you enjoyed learning from Sue and Jon.