Ava: The more we can have, you know, maybe the hard conversations that we're not feeling a connection, or maybe that we are. But I think really at the baseline is communicating your desires. I know in non-monogamy, it's such a focus. I think monogamy can really borrow from that.

Tory: The one liner takeaway is you can still be really progressive with how you're thinking about relationships and community and feel most comfortable in a monogamous relationship. And that's okay.

Fer: Hi, everyone. I am Fer. And this is Mono curious, a mini series by Polycurious that explores the question, what does monogamy look like in the 21st century? For our second episode, I did something that I've never done before. I interviewed a couple that's not actually a couple. So there are two single monogamous leaning people. One of them is Ava, our, uh, monocurious host who you probably already know. And the other one is Tory. Tory recently moved to New York from San Francisco for work and also hoping to have better luck in finding partnership with a, uh, jewish woman.

Ava, on the other hand, has lived in New York City for over eight years. She has been consciously single most of that time, but now she´s more interested in finding a partner to explore monogamy with. Today, Tory and Ava both share how their family and culture have influenced their desires in partnership, as well as their experiences with open dynamics. And, my takeaway from this episode, as someone who does not have a traditional background at all, is that making a choice to follow convention, as long as you are aware of the other options, can be the right decision for you. So if you are one of those people surrounded by tons of polycurious friends, remember, you are free to pursue a different path.

A: Hi everyone. My name is Ava. In this episode, we also discuss dating culture in New York City and the various contrasts and experience men and women have while dating in New York City is relevant to my experience and the 3 million single people here. Like many others, I have found the dating app experience challenging and exhausting because I know so many people struggle with this. This past year, I actually took a stab at playing matchmaker in my community by organizing a group dating event. I learned that, one, people want to find love, and two, this is an obvious one. It's not a simple equation to solve. There is something to our modern societal shifts, especially living in a big city focused on the hustle that slows down the process of settling down. From my experience and observations, this has been often true for men in their thirties who are focused on their career and establishing themselves.

While for women in their thirties who desire a family, they may feel their biological clock ticking. I can name at least five friends who have frozen their eggs in the last two years. Regardless of anyone's circumstances, I believe it is a journey of personal growth, getting to know your relationship patterns and getting clear on the traits that you want in a partner. Wherever you are on your journey, I believe this episode may resonate with you.

F: Hopefully, this episode also helps you become better at communicating with people you're dating, whether you want to continue seeing them or not. Okay, without further ado, here's our episode with Ava and Tory.

Welcome to Monocurious. I'm so excited. I can't wait to dive in. So, why don't we just start by learning a little bit more about each of you?

A: So I'm Ava, and I grew up in Texas. My family, is from Iran, and my parents were divorced. They had a very conservative, traditional upbringing, and their traditional energy kind of was influencing our upbringing. and I moved to New York eight and a half years ago. And I've been single and dating most of that time.

T: So I'm in my early thirties. Just moved to New York from San Francisco. Seven years in San Francisco. And, you know, I moved out here for two reasons. Half personal, which is for dating, and finding a partner, and half professional, which is, this is a better place for my work.

F: So what was the logic behind moving to New York for dating? Because it's actually the first time I hear that. What I hear a lot is that dating in New York is really hard, but I hear that mostly from women.

T: So, yeah, I mean, I think for me, maybe it's cause from a very young age, I was exposed to a story that my mom would tell of her own journey, where she was living in Albuquerque, New Mexico, for almost a decade. And she wanted to meet a jewish man and knew that that was not going to happen in the deserts of New Mexico. And she made the pilgrimage, so to speak, to New York. And lo and behold, within three months, I was actually conceived.

F: And I assume she's jewish.

T: Yeah, she's jewish, and my dad is jewish, and they're married to this day. But anyways, hearing that story, I think that definitely had an influence. But also my whole life, I feel like I've tried to put myself in the place that I guess is most aligned with what my top priorities are in life. So when I wanted to start a business, I really wanted to go into tech. Moved to San Francisco. Right. And when it came time to be like, okay, done a lot, achieved a lot, accomplished a lot professionally, and now I'm thinking about, well, what are my priorities? Especially in a world where we have more flexibility of how we work. You know, I was like, well, I want to meet someone.

F: Are you looking for a jewish woman?

T: For me I've decided that it's important when it comes to having a family that we have some level of, like, ideological consistency. What I want for myself is where we can share our traditions. And so, yeah, so I decided that that was a priority for me. And trust me when I say the dating market in New York is the polar opposite of the one in San Francisco.

F: Why do you think that is?

T: There's a lot of factors, but, I mean, a big one is just the simple industry, right? I mean, you think about what industries dominate San Francisco and its technology and.

F: Too many tech bros.

T: Yeah, a lot. A lot.

A: And also, I imagine, kind of like shy, nerdy ones.

T: Yeah. It's a really challenging dating market, I think, because there is a lot more men than women. And so it creates weird kind of abnormalities in the dating market, and it really does change people's behavior. But it can definitely put you into a very scarcity, scarce mindset. and the inverse is true, I think, here, where it's like, there's actually disproportionately a lot more single women than single men in New York.

A: I low key have always wanted, because I'm a stylist and I work with men, and I'm like, I should just go to San Francisco style, a bunch of men, pack them up, present them really nicely, maybe have them go through a boot camp for dating and how to treat women and bring them to New York. Like, we need more men here. You know, that's a business.

F: I thought you were gonna say and find a man in San Francisco. Cause, I mean, that would be a great way. Cause you would, like, go to their apartments, look through their clothes. Like, you would get to know them, like, pretty quickly.

A: Totally.

F: And then you'd be like, the hot stylist who makes them look better.

A: I thought about it, but I just love my life in New York. So it would be more like an expedition to go, you know, help. It's more like, help these young men. I was just like, there is a service that could be done for many people that would make it a win win situation.

T: There was a dating service not too long ago who very famously was, like, flying women from New York to San Francisco to date and vice versa. Meaning bringing men out here. Yes. Like, that was the thing.

A: Oh, my God, I need to hear about this.

T: Yeah.

A: I do think it's this illusion of choice, and I think women are more geared and more interested in, I think, having relationships. And I don't want to say this is everyone. And I feel as though men are more exploring or like to have all their options, and there's just this context of illusion of choice. I have more choices. And so they're not settling down necessarily as fast or easily. But then you look at the apps, it's like women have hundreds of matches, and guys, like, guys are doing a lot of work to get matches interest and get a date. I think men struggle in that sense with dating in New York. They're also maybe footing the bill and it can get expensive for them. It's an investment.

F: Yeah.

T: That is a line item. It needs to be on the budget. Dating has to be.

A: Dating has to be on the budget.

F: Yeah. You know what? I think age is also a big factor because men can be in their forties and then find a 20 year old woman. Right. And a woman in their forties is gonna have a harder time. Same supply and demand. Right. It's like exactly the same thing. Finding someone even their age sometimes. I think that also plays into it.

A: Totally.There is definitely a huge difference, I think, where men that are, like, kind of maybe more established in their career and in their life are more willing and ready to settle down to find partnership and. Yeah. Otherwise I feel like there is also this desire to establish themselves. It's New York. It's a very hustle city. Everyone's working, everyone's trying to make something of themselves. So I do think that plays a really big factor. I know it has for a lot of the men I've dated in the last eight and a half years, where work was priority or took a lot of time, so they didn't have time. And I think, like, the priorities change with age, where you're like: "Oh, I'm looking back, I've done it all like you said, and now I want to start a family or settle down and have that experience."

F: Yeah. So in your eight and a half years living here and dating for eight and a half years, tell us a little bit about that.

A: Well, I will say I like, when I first moved to New York, I was out of college, and dating was the first time I was dating as an adult, and I was in New York City, and I was just like: "Wow, this is so fun." And the age of apps, I was like, it was really fun. And then within that time, I met someone that was just visiting from San Francisco, ironically. Yeah, I think we really fell for each other in a very short amount of time, but it was not a realistic relationship. And then I dated a little bit, and I look back on the last eight and a half years, and I think there was a lot of periods where I didn't date, and I was not really available. And as I continued growing and evolving as a person and doing my own self work, I started looking at dating again and kind of reflecting on what I wanted and really being so much more intentional and expanding in how I date. But there is this frustration that I've experienced, and I saw a lot of my friends experience, and I just hate the apps so much. Like, I really hate them. I hate swiping left on a person.

I'm like, there's plenty of people I've dated that I would have never swiped right on. You know? There are, like, all these arbitrary factors, like height, what someone does for a living.

F: Chemistry, you know?

A: Yeah, exactly. Chemistry is what's important. I hate text messaging. I don't want to message anyone. I just want to talk to them and see how we vibe, and that's it.

F: Yeah. Yeah. I love that. And I agree. I was on Feeld, the dating app for a month, and I. It wasn't all negative. I met some interesting people, made some connections, but it was not fulfilling at all, which is why I'm not doing it anymore. And then right after that, I went on a date with someone I had met at a party. And even though it was just, like, one date, and I'm not sure we'll see each other again, I was just like: "Oh, my God, this is 200% times better than the dating app game." And then texting and all of that, and then, you know, the meeting and it's always different than what you have in your head, right? And very rarely is it better.

T: Yeah.

A: Yeah. I don't know. There's this predisposition when you're on the apps that you don't take. Not to say that you don't take people as, seriously, but I feel like the level of respect, or maybe respect's not the right word.

T: No, it is. Yeah. People feel permission to treat people not as people, but as objects on the other end.

A: You just don't owe it as much to someone that you've never met, you know? But whereas, like, I've met you. I care about you. I connected with you. Then I owe it more to you to be like: "Hey, I haven't seen you in a while" or: "hey, let's get that coffee" or whatever.

F: Or even just to say: "Hey was lovely to meet you, but I'm not looking for that sort of connection right now, or, I don't have the bandwidth" you know, whenever I don't get that message, and people just stop messaging, even if I wasn't that interested, to me, it just doesn't feel good. And, like, yeah, I don't like. No one likes to be treated that way. And it's become normal and accepted to be treated that way in dating culture.

A: In dating culture. And also, I just want to say overall like, it adds another layer of exhaustion. And I think we're so inundated all the time, you know, like, I want to share some compassion that it's just a lot, you know?

F: I don't know. For me, it was really hard not to be distracted with it. And it became a little bit addictive, honestly, because I liked the attention. I had it at my fingertips.

T: Well, it's the Uber of love or Netflix. It's like when you feel like, oh, there's just this cue, and it's like when you get in a car, and it's like: "Oh, this person's here to take me from a to b, and it's not a human in the front seat, it's just this person in service of me." I think it's an extension of that. It's not a person on the other side of this interaction. It's just like, it's an object until maybe you meet in person. But even then, I think this behavior has also extended with a lot of kind of unspoken norms to, if you don't have a good first date, I think it's very typical to just basically, neither person talks to the other ever again, and you leave it at that.

F: But, you know, that's probably fine. Even if it's an unspoken acknowledgement that we methemenous. We didn't really vibe. No need to continue the conversation. I think that's fine. Uh, but another thing is for you to meet, and then one person does feel the vibe and the other one doesn't, and then the other person is like: "Oh, I'd love to see you again." And then no response, you know, like, totally. That's where it's like.

A: That feels disrespectful.

T: Yeah.

A: Yeah. I mean, something that I feel like we've talked about is communication is a big part of creating the relationships you desire. So having even just, like, the conversations, we need to practice that. That muscle is not being, like, worked. And it's so important, I think, for dating to have conversations.

F: And these conversations are hard to have, and people are not used to it saying, whether it's, I don't want to see you again, or I do want to see you again, or I'm feeling sexually connected to you, but I don't want anything serious. Is that something that you would be okay with, for example? So, yeah, it's difficult, I think, as a society, to know how to do this in a way that feels respectful. And I think everyone hates dating apps, and yet everyone's doing it, you know?

A: Yeah, I think it's the, like, boost, you know, the endorphin boost, just like the likes, you know, like: "Oh, I got a match. Maybe I'll talk to this person" you know? But it's like, oh, this curiosity. It's the curiosity. It's like, oh, well, maybe.

T: Maybe.

A: you know?

T: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I think another thing that apps do is it just sort of flattens, like, humans and chemistry. It's very multidimensional. But when you're in an app, it flattens the person down to pretty much a single dimension, which is like, am I physically attracted or not? Now, the interesting thing is, like, yes. And in a weird way, that means that the apps are both more efficient. Like, they have a sequence score for every single user that's sort of based on the scores of the other users and how they're swiping on you. And so it's super efficient, but it's efficient on one dimension.

A: Yes!

T: And so, you know, if you imagine.

F: Hot people with hot people and not so hot people with hot people.

T: Right! it's kind of crazy.

F: Yeah. Well, I mean, I love this conversation. I think it's important to talk about dating apps. Also, I want to say that it's also a great way for people who might be in communities where they don't have access to a bunch of people that they might be interested in dating, even non-monogamous people or queer people. And, of course, there's also beautiful couples that are formed from dating apps. It's just the culture around it that's curious to hear. Tory, about your experience dating here in New York, since that's. That's why you move here.

T: I've been on more dates with jewish women since moving here, and I really have not had a lot of time for dating because I've been very busy with work. But I've been on more dates with jewish women since moving here in four months or so than I had in seven years in San Francisco. And that's crazy, right? But that's just the...

A: It makes sense. Supply, demand, it's insane.

T: And I'm telling you, it's palpable. It's like you feel it. Like you feel it very much. It's like the market telling you, like. Cause you can listen to the market when you're in San Francisco, and it can tell you you are undesirable. You are not. No, literally, that's the signal. It's very demoralizing. It's like if you listen to it, the market will tell you nobody wants you and whatever. And then you come here and the signal is like, you're hot shit. And so it's funny is you have to stay very grounded and just be like, market signals will be market. And just know who you are.

F: Yeah. So, has it been good to date jewish women here? Have you been enjoying the dating process? Because we just literally spend, like, half an hour talking about how dating sucks.

T: So I think my hack for dating is I try to do things that I would enjoy even if I was doing it on my own. So, like, what that means is, like, during the summer when I was going on dates, like, going climbing or going to, like, a festival or going to, like, a really cool, you know, exhibition or activity. So I can say that I. Even though none of them have, like, really resulted in a relationship yet, I've actually enjoyed. I mean, the worst thing I can say is, like, you know, either it was boring or we weren't compatible, but that's okay.

But it's been. It's been great. But I can also say, full disclosure, I've literally never had a relationship with a jewish woman in my whole life. And so it's so bizarre to be at this point where I'm like, oh, and now it's a priority because now I want, you know, I'm ready to start a family. I feel like I'm in a place where that's my priority.

F: But sounds like none of them have become a long term, that you are seeing.

T: Yeah, there's only been onw second date, I'll put it that way.

F: And so how do you normally have these conversations when you don't follow up? Is it: "Hey, sorry, I'm not interested." Or have you been ghosting people? What has been your communication around it?

T: My personal policy is I will try to treat others the way I would want to be treated. And therefore, what I have done is I will write a message, like, usually the day after saying something to the effect of, I really enjoyed spending time with you, yada, yada, yada, particularly, um, this, this, and the other. Uh, and I can read maybe one example, but it's basically, like I said.

F: Can you read one example?

T: I'd be happy to, but I would. I'm honest about either, saying, like, I feel the connection I felt with you was more one of friendship and not of, like, not romantic.

F: So read us the text.

T: Yeah, I just said, I hope you got some sleep last night. Uh, I had a lot of fun at dinner. You have an awesome perspective on life, and I appreciate you because I value honesty and transparency. I want to let you know that I'd be more interested in exploring friendship rather than something romantic. Are you open to that? And that was it. And then she responded, basically just saying she feels the same way, identified with me as a person and would love to be friends. And we've still been chatting ever since, and, like, we've seen each other at, like, some charity things, and we're gonna potentially meet up later in Mexico City over around New Year's. And, like, legitimately, I think we're gonna, you know, we're becoming friends. And so I think, like, you know, sometimes those small gestures can go a long way to just remember, like, you know, yes, it's just a first date, but, like, yeah. How we gracefully leave those interactions can make a difference.

F: What a gentleman. I really hope that people take that text as an inspiration.

T: I will send that. And sometimes I get no response. Sometimes I get a wonderful response. And I think if you treat people with respect and treat them like a human, they'll treat you well back. Although a lot of times, I think women don't believe if I say to them, like: "I want friendship" but then once I, like, if you show it with your actions that, like, you know, I reach out again, or if I invite her to a dinner, or if I do, you know, you actually show that your actions are aligned with your words. It can lead to a lot of great.

F: Yeah, I love that everyone out there learn from Tory dating etiquette.

A: Well, it's also also, like, it depends on the perspective of the person. If they're really looking for a partner or a relationship, you're like, I don't know if I want to invest time in a friendship right now. I think it's coming from a little different perspective, I might assume from you, given that you moved to New York recently, and if you vibe with someone and want to connect as a friend, that's awesome. And I'm not saying that people shouldn't become friends with people that they meet on Twitter.

F: Yeah, but some people don't want that.

A: But people don't want that. I feel like for after a first date, it's really hard for me to want to become friends with someone if I don't click with them.

T: That's the minority. So, to be clear, like, most of the time, I'll send the same message, but not without the friend. I will only send that if I genuinely am, uh, coming from a place where I'm like, I could see us being friends.

A: So something interesting you shared earlier was you kind of find what's important fundamentally, right. Family values. Jewish culture, also very similar to persian culture, is very centered around family and all of that. So I think, like, at the end of the day, it's really about what do you actually really need?

T: So what's interesting, though, is I feel like I've definitely gotten some flack for wanting to, you know, date someone where the thing we connect on is around, like, faith and, you know, tradition and values. And I think, though, a lot of it, like, what people might not realize is I think what it's actually doing is it's controlling for, like, a whole lot of, like, downstream decisions that, like, you haven't yet faced, which are around, like, you know, when it comes to the community that you want to try and live nearby or in proximity to, like, is that gonna be a jewish community? Does it matter if you're near, like, a school?

What are you doing every Friday night? Are you doing Shabbat as a family every Friday night? What holiday are you celebrating? Come, like, holiday seasons, like, who are you visiting? Things like that. There's all of these things that I think don't really matter when you're just dating for yourself and what feels good.

A: Totally.

T: And for learning and for growth and whatever. For that, it's like, date anyone and everyone. But then when it's like, if what I'm saying is, like, this is someone that I'm gonna have a family with, it's sort of like, it can control for a lot of things. Now, the irony is there's just as many women who I've gone on dates with or, you know, know well, who are jewish, who I know 1000%, we would not be compatible on a million other dimensions. So I'm not saying it's an end all, be all, but it can help for controlling for a lot of those things.

A: Yeah, well, there's also, like, I feel like, the power of love. Those are things that can be, like, accounted for, you know? But I do see a difference. Like, my dad, he dated a lot of women, and had partners, like, monogamous relationships as I was growing up. And he eventually was like, you know, I just really want to be with someone who's iranian. Like, I think, like, being able to, like, connect over my language and my culture is just so important to me. And I. And I see that, you know, I see that. I don't think it's necessary for every relationship dynamic. I think I would love to marry a persian man and, like, have those shared things. Like, I really would.

But I've also come to see, like, if I. If I don't marry someone that's iranian, I would love to still continue my traditions, my culture, and celebrating that and for them to be, like, really into it. But I don't know. Uh, there's something about connecting. Yeah, it's just different.

T: Totally.

A: It's different.

F: Yeah. I mean, I think that it's great that you have those values, but there are values that you chose, right? Like, you are choosing to have a jewish partner and to continue that culture in your life and have those values, which is great. And I think it just depends on how important that is for you. And for some people, that's not important. I think what's important is that it's a choice.

And on that, on, you know, being intentional about the way you are dating and the decisions that you're making. I was wondering where you stand in the spectrum of monogamy, because, of course, this is Monocurious, right? But you know that the option to be non-monogamous exists. In fact, I believe that your brother is polyamorous. So I'm curious to hear about your perspective making this conscious choice of being monogamous. When, you know, or monogamish, however, you'd like to describe yourself knowing that there's other options out there.

T: Yeah, well, and to clarify, I think he's still in exploration. He's still defining, I think, what he is. And where I see myself on the spectrum is monogamish in the sense that I would identify closer to wanting to find a singular partner and seeing it as a very, very serious commitment to one person and to someone who wants to, partake in something that's more like a spiritual union and takes it really seriously and wants to create and build something beautiful together. But if part of that is we want to test boundaries, things like that.I'm a big believer that experimentation, when done with the right communication, is really healthy. I think that that's the sign of a healthy relationship and respecting each other's boundaries. And I've been in, or I've experimented with being polyamorous and being in a wide variety of relationships and varying degrees of open, and where I landed is probably closer to more monogamish than not, because I think it's, for me, a more stable foundation to, you know.

F: Yeah, I hear what you're saying, and it is true that being monogamous can be more stable in a way. But I think that you also mentioned committed, soulful. And I do think that there's, like, a misconception that non-monogamous people are less committal or that, you know, they might not have as secure or, like, as deep connection. And, you know, I feel like with my partner, we just have a really beautiful, like, deep connection. And I'm not saying you are, like, antagonizing non-monogamy, but what makes you think that being in a monogamous relationship means that you are more committed?

T: Well, and I should clarify, like, yeah, it's not to say that you can't find that in a polyamorous relationship. I think it's more, in my experience, love can be very infinite and boundless and uniting within the world. But when you break down, what are all the elements that maybe go into showing love or the resources that you would use with a partner? Those are all finite. Time, money, energy. And I think that, in a consenting relationship, I think that there totally are ways to find beautiful equilibriums. Like, it sounds like you have with your partner. And one of my closest, closest, closest male friends back in the Bay Area, I met him at a poly meetup, one of my first few months in San Francisco, and to this day, is one of my best friends. And he, at any given time, will probably be in, like, five different relationships. And I really admire that he's able to do that. He really shows up, and he's very intentional. But if you look at his calendar, he's booked out months. And I think it's a life decision. And I think. I'm not saying it's a right or wrong thing. It's like, the type of connection that I want and the type of relationship that I wanna invest in. I imagine us putting the majority of our resources into our own relationship and needing to do that to make it through the hard times and through the good times and knowing that, if that's just the expectation, but we also might wanna have space for experimentation, maybe we're on a trip and you wanna do something together.

You wanna do this or having just space apart. I think even that is actually experimental. My mom, to her credit to this day, she's 65, my dad is 80. He's not traveling so much anymore. She'll go alone and travel for two months at a time. She'll go to, like, Mexico or to where was she? Ecuador, very recently. And so she'll be apart from him for two months. And I think even something like that in traditional culture is very like, whoa. Traveling alone, doing this. But that's for them, where they've found balance, is that she has a lot of independence. And I think each relationship, like, you do need to find your own equilibrium. I believe it's different for everyone. What I've figured for myself, though, is like, that is more around how we would dedicate our resources.

F: Yeah, the resources. I think that's really true. I mean, that's the reason why I'm not dating right now, because I'm putting my resources on Monocurious, right? And that's also why I consider myself open. I could only imagine what it would be like to have two, three boyfriends and have to use so my energy and resources. So, yeah, I think that's really valid. But I'm curious what your experience with non-monogamy was because you base your decision to be monogamish now on that.

T: Yeah. Well, my experience was, actually, I saw how it could be really great, like, when there's a strong, trusting foundation. I think one of the things that I struggle with or that I experienced is it just created a lot more opportunities, at least in our relationship, for insecurities to not, I mean, I don't even wanna call them insecurities. It created opportunities for fissures or, like, fissures to show up cracks to show up in the relationship, right? Like, let me put it this way. Like, if you're in an argument and, like, one of the safety valves is like, I'm gonna go spend the night with a different person in the arms of a different person. Because, like, we're not in a good or fun place at the moment or whatever. Like, if that's an option on the table and it's like, versus, like: "Hey, we're gonna sit in this and, like, we don't want to go to sleep angry, and we want to just work through this." I think, like, it. It can create, you know, unhealthy, potentially unhealthy situation. Now you can have unhealthy situations even without other relationships.

A: Yeah.

T: I just felt that it added, you know, it can add a lot of complexity. And relationships are already very, very, very complex.

F: Yeah, I agree. It adds a lot of complexity. I always say, people say to people, if you are in a tough place in your relationship, don't open up. Like, I would never do that. I would never go and meet with a date when I'm in a fight with my partner, you know, and I don't recommend people to do that. But even if you are doing it well, having another person in the picture does complicate things. does, make your resources more limited, after you account for those people. So I totally, totally hear that. How about you, Ava? Where do you stand in the spectrum?

A: So the desire for doing Monocurious was really to explore what monogamy looks like in the 21st century. From my perspective, I. Okay, like I said, I had divorced parents. They weren't in arranged marriage, but they essentially were kind of, like, set up as a, there's a traditional term called ostighari, I believe. But you, like, kind of set up for, like, a tea with a potential suitor. And my mom had a lot of those, and she said no. And then she said yes to my dad. And he was visiting from the US, and they got married ten days later. They were like complete opposites. They didn't have a foundation in their relationship. And I, through this traditional sense, they were expected to raise a family together and have this long life, and that didn't work out for them. And when they got divorced, I was like, it made sense to me that they were getting divorced because I never really saw them together. I spent three years of my childhood in Iran with my mom and brother, and my dad wasn't there. And, when they got divorced, my dad had another partner that he was seeing, and this person became like a mom to me.

And they were a part of my life for the most formidable years for, like, over ten years. And, you know, after that, my dad had other partners that he was with for a long time, and they also influenced my life for a long time. When I was younger, I kind of created this fantasy that I was going to find, like, the love of my life, Disney kid, you know, and that that would be my story. And as I've gotten older and, like, kind of experienced my dad having all these different partners, I was like, I don't know if this is realistic to think that one person can be your everything and this is what you have. And so I, you know, coming to New York, I, like, was exposed to a lot of different things. I was dating a lot of different people. I definitely can own that I have had, I think, commitment issues, like, in the sense that I haven't really had that many long term relationships. And when it gets close to that, I've kind of freaked out. I also attract a lot of unavailable people.

Everyone's going to hear all about my, but it's a part of my journey, right? Like, I'm learning about myself, and I'm just curious to see, like, what works for people and understand what would work for me. I've been in situations that were, like, non-monogamouish. It's hard to say when you're dating, everyone's non-monogamous. When you're dating, you're dating multiple people. But I dated this person briefly a few years ago, and they were communicating with me. They were non-monogamous how they were dating other people, and, like, it was their birthday, and they gave me a warning that the other women that they were dating were going to be there. And the whole birthday party, I was just, like, feeling so bad and insecure and not sure who it was, and I was like: "Oh, what if it's them?" and comparing myself, and this was a younger version of me. We weren't dating that long. It was uncomfortable, you know? And then it turned out the next day, none of them were there. And, like, I just went through all of this. Like, people were, like, worried about me. They told him, whatever, don't, be good to her. So I've had just a few experiences that have influenced that. I dated someone the summer of the pandemic. He was clearly dating other people, but we weren't very communicative about it, and I just had just such anxiety around it. I think it was more that he wasn't communicating with me.

F: Yeah, same with you. The other guy. If the other guy had been like: "Oh, actually, they didn't come." Or if they came...

A: Totally.

F: "Oh, that's the girl that I've been dating." You know, the uncertainty is what creates the jealousy.

A: Exactly.

F: It's not security or whatever it is.

A: But, like, the truth is, when I learned about "Ethical slut", the book, my roommate at the time was delving into learning about that. In theory, I really believe and understand how non-monogamy, polyamory can make a lot of sense. And I believe fundamentally in the beauty of non-monogamy. Like, you know, seeing how I have this traditional idea that men will maybe not be satisfied and cheat, you know, or maybe I won't be satisfied and I'll want to have other sexual explorations, and I would never want, like, desire to come in the way of my partnership. Like, for me, building a really strong foundation with someone is what I want. And I do believe that having that commitment to each other to build that is really important for me to even feel safe, to, like, open and explore that. So, like, right now, I'm pursuing, like, creating depth and partnership and commitment with one person. I have never really fully experienced it, and that's what I want to experience. And it's like, I don't oppose that polyamory or non-monogamy could be something that could work for me. I just don't know.

And I think that in theory, I think it could work, but I haven't had it really fully in practice, but I imagine it'll be a lot harder for me. I would like to be fully consumed and fully consume someone and just really be there for each other. And I think that's where my desire for monogamy comes in. Yeah, I believe in non-monogamy. I believe when you're getting to know someone and you're not committed to each other, you should have the option to explore, if that's what you both agree on. But, you know, or if you want to, like, contain the commitment and build the foundation, I think that's beautiful, too. So I'm monocurious, and I would say I'm monogamous, leaning in my current pursuits, a longer term partnership. But I don't think non- monogamy is, like, completely out of the picture for me.

I can't say I don't have enough information, which is why we're here, which is why we're doing this. Ah, right. I want to learn more and have these examples. It's meaningful to me.

F: Yeah. I think that what a lot of people feel more comfortable with, and Tory also mentioned this is kind of creating that stable partnership first, and then perhaps maybe opening up. And not to say that people who choose to begin open are not doing what's right for them, but I do find that it's important to have that security, build that security with one partner. So you are not as afraid if you do open up, that, that partner won't come back to you, right? Because you have a level of commitment, you have build the communication skills, etcetera. But yeah, it sounds like you both are in a similar, point in the spectrum, although perhaps for slightly different reasons.

T: Well, and one thing that I wanted to clarify, I shared this quote with you earlier, but it was: "Old souls do not marry for romance. They marry to be of service to humanity and to the cosmos. They marry to serve the principle of marriage, which is one of service not to themselves, but to humanity and to the world as a whole. They come together at the appointed time to unite their energies as an act of service to their creator." So super beautiful. This actually has nothing to do with Judaism, but the concept to me is beautiful because if you think about it, it's like, what are we agreeing as the orientation? Is the orientation like me, me? Is it us? Or actually, is it something larger than us? And I think inherently it's very difficult because the ego will always dictate everything that was back to me, me, me and meeting my needs and expecting one person to meet all your needs. Maybe you need a bunch of people to meet all your needs. And it's like, well, what if the orientation isn't about my needs or it's not about your needs, but it's actually about what can we do to be in service of the world? And it's like, that's the orientation. If you keep coming back to that and you're like, wow, we have the potential to create life that is like a, that's an amazing thing. And we have potential to, like, build something really amazing. Whether that's, you know, you know, it's a family, it's the family unit's potential, whether it's like, you know, the impact you have on your community, like, all of that. And I was like, if you start there and it's like, that's the orientation. You know, seeing, like, okay, there are other needs that might need to get met, and maybe there's a role that other people can play in that, but it's almost like it's just a different orientation.

Whereas if I've read a lot of the same books, like "Ethical Slut", "Polysecure", things like that, the orientation is very much on, the me or the I and my needs. And my joke is I'm already narcissistic enough and I'm like, I need to work on being of service and a huge part of why I want a family is to help actually train me to be more oriented to giving to a child. That will take, take.

F: I love what you guys are sharing, but I do want to be mindful. And what you are saying right now sounds like when you are talking about being of service to humanity, are you referring also to how you want to be in a committed, monogamous marriage in order to do that? Is that the orientation that you.

T: No, to clarify, like, I'm not saying you can't have that same orientation in a poly relationship. So to be super clear, like, that's why I keep using, like, eye statements. It's more like, for me, I'm starting at what is my first priority, and it's finding a relationship where it can be oriented like this. And then if we then decide to explore, and it's other things to me, like being open or doing that, that would be only if it made sense in the context of relationship. But it's not a priority because it kind of goes back to much earlier in our conversation, we talked about what are you willing to give on and what is, like a top priority? And I guess this is just my way of saying, like, I would make this more like, closer to my top priority, and then the other stuff would be like, if it fits within the equilibrium of our relationship, like, I'll know then, you know? But I'm not, like, selecting. Does that make sense?

F: Yeah, no, that makes sense because as we talked about, it's true that resources are limited. It makes total sense that you want to put your resources on something outside of yourself and your desires. And I respect that perspective. There's another perspective which we won't get into, because we don't have time, which is if you fulfill your desires, then you are going to be better off to actually give because you are actually reaching self fulfillment cup before.

T: Us over.

F: Yeah. If part of filling your cup is being non-monogamous, then that's what you must do if you want to be of service of others. I do agree that there's a distinction between what's best for you and what you want. Right. So a lot of people might want to be non-monogamous because they might want the sex or they might want this or that, and that's not really what's really gonna, like, make them feel good and help them be of service. But if they are actually in tune with what they need to be of service and that's been non-monogamous, then I think that that's great. I just wanted to clarify that. Okay. So we've talked about so many interesting things today, and I'm so glad you both, uh, shared your perspective. As we come to an end, what would you guys tell to a monocurious person? So that can be our listeners. It can be people who might be curious about the things that we've been talking about today.

T: One liner takeaway is like, you can still be really progressive with how you're thinking about relationships and community and feel most comfortable in a monogamous relationship. And that's okay. It can be beautiful to be in a polyamorous relationship. It can be beautiful to be partially open, and it can also be like, it's also okay. Don't feel like you have to be progressive, because one thing I didn't share, my brother keeps getting hurt. He keeps getting hurt because he's a very sensitive person and he's trying to work out all the jealousy and all this kind of stuff, but then he keeps going into relationships being like, I'm not going to get attached, but he's sleeping with them, and then shockingly gets attached, and then shockingly, like, they sleep with other people. And then he ends up feeling really hurt and then calling me, and I'm like: "Listen, it's okay to, like, admit that you're feeling hurt. That doesn't make you, like, weaker or, like, you have some insecurity or something that's wrong with you. It's like, it's okay to be, like, you're desiring something that's, like, a different type of relationship. Like, that's more committed and where, you know, and if that's where you're at, that's just what your body and, like, that's what you're being told. That's okay." But what's funny is I think he feels a lot of pressure in the communities that he's a part of.

F: How about you, Ava?

A: Yeah. I mean, I think being really true to yourself is important, and you can explore all sorts of relationships, and I think the biggest thing is communicating what you want and what works for you, like, what your desires are. And I think, like, the more we can connect in person and less, you know, online, the better it is for our relationships and our personal growth, the more we can have, you know, maybe the hard conversations that we're not feeling a connection, or maybe that we are, like, I think it's beautiful to say that we are feeling a connection. These are just, like, little tidbits, but I think really, at the baseline, it's communicating. Communicating your desires. I know, in non-monogamy, it's such a focus that I think monogamy can really borrow from that.

F: Yeah, I love that. I love that. Well, thank you guys so much. This has been truly wonderful.

A: Thank you. Fer. This was so fun.

T: Thank you for having us.

F: Thank you everyone for listening to today's episode. A lot of you might be new to the podcast, especially if you are monocurious and not polycurious. But as you might have already noticed by the past couple of episodes, relationships are relationships, whether they are non-monogamous or not, and a lot of the struggles are actually the same.