A: [00:00:00] I just thought, these are my rules and that's what I have to follow. I didn't even have to do any introspection within my own heart because I had these rules from the outside that were being imposed by someone else. And if anything, I felt like it made me less loving toward him and made me more resentful toward him.

Mm-hmm. And I think without rules, now that I don't have any rules, I'm always thinking about him. I'm always thinking about, well, how would he respond if I did this? Maybe I don't wanna do that then, because I do want to be always behaving in a way that's respectful. He didn't tell me what's quote unquote respectful.

I have to think for myself, what's respectful for me and what behavior I think would be respectful for him. So. I feel like I'm much more caring about his feelings now than I was when I just had to check off rules.

Fer: Hi everyone. Welcome to Polycurious. I am Fer relationship coach [00:01:00] and host of this podcast, and today I'm talking to a and j Friends from Denver who I actually met because A is a fan of the podcast and she joined my patron and we realized that. We actually live in the same neighborhood, and even though there's a big difference in age, I'm in my early thirties and a and j are in their early fifties.

We've actually connected a lot, partly because we have some parallels in our relationships. As you might know, I'm in a relationship where said is monogamous and I'm polyamorous. And even though J isn't monogamous, this is a couple where. One person was going a lot slower than the other one. And the reason why they opened up their relationship in the first place after being, I think 28 years together, and Monogamously, without cheating, without any [00:02:00] desire to open up the relationship was actually because A, as she went through menopause, her libido went through the roof.

And as you can imagine, opening up the relationship after three decades together, that involved a lot of letting go of that enmeshment and assumption of similarity that comes with monogamy. And in letting go of that, they open a dialogue and they open a different type of connection that's not based on exclusivity, but that is rooted in supporting each other to do the things that feel aligned to each of them, even if those things are different as well as.

Finding value in the time that they spend together in what they built together. And not only in not having sex with other people. And I think this is a really great example of how. Non-monogamy can actually be used to, to keep couples together because had they not opened up their relationship, [00:03:00] a would've been resentful that J wasn't acting in the ways that would help her feel more sexually satisfied.

And I also think about my relationship with Seth because I do think that part of the reason why we've been able to stay together is because I have not gotten resentful towards him for not being as sexually exploratory or not wanting to have sex as much as I want, because I know that I can go and do that with other partners.

I like to think that couples that have been together for a long time can use non-monogamy as a way to stay together. So in this first part of our conversation, we talk about their journey opening up and how at the beginning, given that a, was the one that wanted to open up and J was resistant to it.

J set all the rules. There are some people that believe that you should not restrict your partner at all because of your insecurities, and I'm actually not one of those people. I think that as long as you recognize that you are restricting [00:04:00] your partner because you're having a difficult time and you're working on it, there's nothing wrong with saying, Hey, can you please not date as often because I'm still getting used to this, or whatever it is.

But there's two caveats to this. One, that it should not come from a place of judgment. You should be aware that you're setting a boundary because you feel insecure and you should be willing to work on that insecurity. And it's not because there's anything wrong with non-monogamy. It's not because there's anything wrong with what your partner is doing, it's just because you are slowing into it.

And hopefully at some point you can remove that rule or that agreement that's restricting your partner's freedom. And secondly, I think it's also important that everyone is on board. So in our conversation we talk about J having a rule that a couldn't date men under a certain age. And in my opinion, there would've been nothing wrong with that rule if one, he [00:05:00] would have admitted from the beginning that it was coming from his insecurities around his own age and was trying to work on that and feeling more comfortable with a dating someone who's younger.

Also if a would've agreed to that rule. So what ended up happening is because there was only one person setting the rules and a wasn't really on board to begin with, she started breaking those rules and that exposed J to having to look at his own insecurities and why those rules were there in the first place.

And now they don't have any rules. And the thing was that as they removed the rules, it didn't mean that J. Completely let go of his insecurities, but he's gotten to a place where he's working on those insecurities and he's working on himself as opposed to restricting his partner's freedom because of them.

And that's what we're really going to talk about in the second part of the [00:06:00] conversation, how J is working on those insecurities That comes out in a couple of weeks. Or if you can't wait to hear it, you can subscribe to my Patreon where it's already available. And if you subscribe, you'll get access to.

More bonus content from different interviews, some solo episodes where I get super personal about my experience. You'll be able to join our monthly meetups where we cover different topics as well as their recordings from previous meetups where we talked about things like tone on tell, how to be a good kinde comparison, new relationship energy, and actually coming up on October 29th, we are talking about hierarchy, which is a very loaded and controversial topic in non-monogamy.

I'm actually not one of those people that believe that all hierarchy non-monogamy is bad. And also if you're doing non hierarchy, I think there's some things that you [00:07:00] need to take into account. So we're gonna talk about all of that, and if you want to join us, all you need to do is subscribe to My patron.

Okay guys, I hope that you enjoyed this episode as much as I did. Here is my interview with a and j. Welcome to the podcast. I'm so excited, so exciting. It's such a joy to interview people from Denver that I've also met organically. So maybe we can start there. So a, would you like to tell the listeners how we met?

A: Yes, I would love to tell that listeners how we met. Um, so since we started, I just have been listening to podcasts all the time, listening to audio books about non-monogamy and polyamory and yeah, your podcast was the very first podcast I listened to from start to finish. Um, I never thought that I would beat you or we would become friends or anything like that.

I just was really. Captivated by you and your perspective and your style and the way you approach it, and just how smart and wonderful you are. Anyway, I don't wanna be too [00:08:00] much of a fan girl, but yes, I have all the positive things to say about you. And when you started the podcast, you were not living anywhere near Denver, and then over the course of the podcast, then you were living in Denver.

And so I joined your Patreon and then you reached out to me and then we found out we live in the same neighborhood. And then I invited you to Happy Hour, and then we went to Happy Hour and spent like, I don't know, three or four hours talking that day at Happy Hour. And then, um, you invited us over, J and I over for an event at your house with you and Seth and your friends, and I don't know, I'm just.

Really grateful, so Yeah. 

Fer: Yeah, me too. I love it. And you know, it's, uh, wonderful because people know me because of the podcast. I have more to learn about you and I've also been learning about you, but it's like they're already my friends because they already know me and if they felt that attraction than it's normally reciprocal.

And a lot of my friends are, you know, poly curious listeners. So it's been a wonderful way to, to connect. But [00:09:00] you know, I also love that we are. Coming at non-monogamy at different ages and in different circumstances, but we also have a lot in common. Yes. I do remember you in one of the patron meetups, you said, I have a Seth Yes.

Gay over here. Yes. Right. And you know, I think there's many differences between you and Seth, but there's also certain similarities. One of the things that we were just talking about that, that you mentioned you wanted to talk about is the religious upbringing. The, um, perhaps having a personality that although you are also non-monogamous, maybe doesn't need as much of that newness, mental or physical simulation or whatever.

Whereas a and I are more of the Yes. We want to do everything and meet everyone and we have a big sexual appetite. Yes. And all of those things. But before I go too much into that, why don't we just let the listeners know who you are, whatever you [00:10:00] feel comfortable sharing when it comes to where you come from or like your relationship or what you do.

Speaker 4: Yeah. So, uh, in terms of our background, we met in college. Uh, we, uh, met and started living together after two weeks. And that coming up this Wednesday will be 30 years ago, 

Fer: which is insane 'cause I'm 31. 

Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah. And so, uh, we've been together for quite a while, uh, and a, uh, asked after 28 and a half years to be open, so.

As we started the relationship, there was no intention or understanding, looking forward two and a half decades plus that we would be in this spot. So this is quite an adventure for us. And, uh, 

A: adventure is a good [00:11:00] word. 

Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah. And I think it started with a, uh, going through hormonal changes and that had, uh, prompted us to talk about opening up our relationship.

And maybe you wanna talk about that a bit more? 

A: Yeah. And just going back to our background. Yeah. So we, yeah, I was 21 and J was 23 and we moved in together and we pretty much just, that was it. Like two weeks later we got a dog. And so I remember saying to him like, well, we've been together for one month now.

Like, are you ready to make a 15 year commitment to me? With the dog, and he's like, yeah, I'm good with that. And so we pretty much became very family looking very, very early. We nested 

Speaker 4: very quickly. We 

A: nested really quickly and became a, a family very, very quickly. And so our own ideas about what a family looked [00:12:00] like really sustained us for a very long time.

After we were living together five years and married five years, this is our 25th wedding anniversary this year, we adopted our children. So we have a 20-year-old daughter and a 17-year-old son. And we were just very much a family. And I think now we're recognizing how much monogamy had to do with being a family.

But I never questioned it. Like, I never questioned have, oh, I wanna have sex with other people. It's just something that I didn't. I didn't ever think about. I was, sex has always been super important to me and important to J because of me, and he's always met my needs. So I don't know. And he's always been pretty focused on work and research and like, I don't know where you were with that, but I was not thinking about it and looking back at why this came about and why I was sparked into [00:13:00] wanting to be able to be with other people.

It was hormonal for me too. Like I was just going into menopause or like late perimenopause and menopause and all of a sudden my sex drive, which was consistent over. Our entire marriage. I'd say the first 15 years were maybe a little bit slower, and then the last 15 years, um, have been already kind of hyperdrive for my libido.

But even at those times, I didn't have a desire to have sex with other people. But with this change, you know, I was, uh, 49 at that time. I'm 51 now. This change, it's like my libido was really insatiable. Like, I was telling him like, I wanna have sex twice a day. And he's just like, what? Like, can we do it twice a week?

Like, and I said, no, I have to like now masturbate constantly. Um, and I was just having a lot [00:14:00] of sexual desires that I did not have before. And I talked to my doctor about it, who she's this exact same age as me and she was like, number one, don't worry because a lot of women are in your situation, even though popular culture tells us that.

When women get older, they like go out to pasture and they're not sexual anymore and they're not sexy anymore and they're just invisible in society because now they're not of childbearing years. So what value do they have? She told me a lot of women, not just me, she's had other experiences with women who also have a hyper sex drive when they go into menopause.

And that's been the biggest change for me. Like, I don't know if, if it wasn't for my chemical makeup and my hormonal makeup, if we would be sitting here right now. 

J: Hmm. 

A: I don't, because how is it that I could go 28 and a half years and never think, never cheat, or never think about cheating? Um, I mean, we'd fantasize about, you know, you fantasize when you're in bed, but nothing, [00:15:00] nothing.

That was actually anybody that I would ever actually wanna be with. Usually celebrities or whatever. Um, but it was never, it was never me asking like, Hey, can I have a boyfriend? Or, Hey, can I have sex with other people? So. That's just something that people don't talk about in society. My hormone hormones were so big that I had to bring this to him, and then the way that non-monogamy has looked like for me is very different from the way it's looked like for J.

And my sexual appetite is a huge driving force, even to this day of why I do it. So many other things have come out of it. Like I didn't realize that I was afraid to be separate from J. I was, um, worried to point out at my differences because there's so much pressure to just always compromise. Right? Um, and just my.

Cultural background and the way I've seen women [00:16:00] in my family, in my cousins and my aunts and uncles, the way I've seen women always behave is in a compromising way to their partners, to their husbands. And so I think I didn't realize that I was also doing that until now. Mm-hmm. 

Fer: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that because I think not only what you already mentioned that we have this idea of menopause being.

When women become less sexual, when that might not be the case for a lot of women out there, but also just in general, that women are the less sexual person in their relationship. And that's why I also try to show people in the podcast like, Hey, no, like I'm the one with the higher libido. And that's the case for a lot of women.

That's the case for you. Yes, and And there's nothing wrong with it. And there's nothing wrong with the woman being the one that's like more exploratory. 

Speaker 4: Even just like opening up and admitting that she has a higher libido. I think as an American male [00:17:00] growing up, that alone is a bit threatening. 

Fer: Yeah. 

Speaker 4: What kind of man am I if I don't have a higher libido?

And so there are a lot of of those issues culturally just as a male. 

Fer: Yeah. 

Speaker 4: That I'm like, okay, does that mean I'm less of a man? 

Fer: Yeah. 

Speaker 4: And so there's a lot of things that kind of come up there, uh, as we're opening up that I need to work through. 

Fer: Mm-hmm. So maybe we can tell the listeners how you decided to open up at first after 28 years, I think you said.

A: Well, it's interesting because. A lot of this, like figuring out what exactly happened has, it's taken time for me to like, understand my body and understanding changes. At the time when it happened, I met someone and they were interested in me, like [00:18:00] romantically slash sexually, and I was very confused about it.

I was like, wait, what's happening? What are these feelings in my body? I felt like a teenager. I, I didn't know how to make any sense of it and this was just upon meeting this person. So I told J that night, I was actually traveling and I told him on a Zoom call and I said, I think I wanna have a boyfriend.

And like literally, I'd never said anything like that ever before to him. I'd never brought up really sleeping with other people or anything. And then now all of a sudden I'm saying like, I want a boyfriend. And I didn't, didn't want a boyfriend, but I didn't know what else to call this. Being an educated person and being a well-read person.

I was completely unfamiliar with the concepts behind non-monogamy or polyamory. So I just said, I wanna, I think I want a boyfriend. And he said, okay. And I was traveling at the time and he said, okay, why don't you come home from your trip and then we'll talk about it. 

Speaker 4: Yeah. So, yeah, it was really interesting for me to [00:19:00] hear that, because on the one hand, we've been together for such a long time, so there is just an innate trust over decades.

But this is the first time she ever brought it up. And I was the first like, wait, why is she saying this? What? And it made me first. And this is where like the insecurities and just like, what is going on. Uh, and I immediately was kind of on the defensive. 

A: But you didn't show it, you said, let's talk about it when you get back.

Yeah. You didn't show alarm or, um, insecurity or frustration or anger? Nothing. I remember. I think it's 

Speaker 4: because we were on a, you know, zoom call then, and I was like, wait, what? It was kind of a, a shock to be honest. At first I said, okay, let me, I know I'm gonna get off the Zoom call. Let me then process it.

So I kind of put that aside and said, okay, well if she's saying it, there must be a reason for it. I don't wanna [00:20:00] immediately get defensive and then. Shut it down. I kind of wanna understand what, what's happening here. Yeah. But it, it was a bit threatening for me at the beginning. Yeah. 

Fer: Yeah. I think that that's normal when your partner wants to open up our tendencies to think, what did I do do wrong?

Where is our relationship lacking that they feel the need to go somewhere else? But I think it's very wise of you, and I think you and Seth have that in common to be like, hold on a second. Why don't I just process, take a minute to understand as opposed to just reacting to it. I know it was probably because you were in a Zoom call, but I think that's skill of being like.

Okay. My partner's telling me something that's making me feel a certain way, but instead of just like putting it on my partner and making them feel wrong for expressing how they feel, let me take a step back and think about where they might be coming from and think about how I actually feel about it.

So then we can have another conversation at a later time. [00:21:00] And that's something that I've learned from Seth. I, um, I have the tendency to be like, let's resolve everything now. And I think there's so much value when you are a little bit shocked or confused to be like, actually, let's take a, let's take a moment.

Let's revisit this conversation tomorrow or in a week or next time we have our check-in, or whatever it is. 

Speaker 4: Yeah. I came at it initially trying to separate the emotional side from the logical side, wanting to know where she's coming from, but then at the same time, having to deal with these like issues of feeling threatened, feeling insecure, and.

For me, I think as a typical American male, there are two separate things. And I think one of the biggest learnings is how to process and sit with that uncomfortability emotionally and still talk through that. I think that's one of the biggest things that I'm coming to learn here. And, uh, [00:22:00] opening our relationship has been really interesting because there are aspects when you're just in a monogamous relationship, just issues, events, conversations that would never come up.

You can just bury them or put 'em away and not have to deal with them. But when you're in an open relationship, all of a sudden there's certain spotlights that show up and it's very surprising and it catches me off guard, uh, sometimes. And so dealing with that unexpected. Feelings and emotions and then trying to just sit with that and dealing with things like jealousy and insecurity, I think is the biggest kind of surprise to me.

Uh, when opening our relationship. 

A: For me, like I read this a while ago, I listened to it and it said like, in monogamy there's a real pressure to be the same, to feel the [00:23:00] same, to not rock the boat. You have to always be in this movement of like compromising so that you're always going in the same direction.

And for me, being open has made me. We more willing to point out our differences and not being afraid that we're going to lose our connection. Mm-hmm. Because once you start sleeping with other people, all of a sudden that thing that you only did with your husband, and I remember over the course of 28 and a half years saying to him, God, like, gosh, this is so much fun.

I can't believe we only do it with each other. That's so special. I remember saying like, I can't believe it. It's so interesting. But. There's this just pressure to stay the same. And now when you let go of that piece, like now we don't just sleep with each other and so why are we together? It feels like a more intentional choice [00:24:00] that we choose to be together, not just because of sex.

And once you kind of separate the sex out, I feel like I'm able to separate more of my personality out than before. And I'm not afraid to say, Hey, you know what? I just realized that I was compromising a lot on this X, Y, Z subject and I'm learning more about myself now and I'm realizing I don't really feel that way.

What I've been presenting to you is really not how I really feel. But I was maybe afraid to say it before 'cause it was, there's so much pressure for to us to not have conflict. 

Speaker 4: I think that there's that assumption under a monogamy, your partner supposed to be everything for you. And if they're not. And there's something lacking then, like how do you navigate around that?

What does, what 

A: does that mean? Yeah. Yeah. 

Speaker 4: And then for me, growing up religious, I thought that that physical act of sex is [00:25:00] the thing that separates your relationship with everyone else. And if you don't have that anymore, what does that mean for like a marriage? And so that is where it's like, okay, well we have to make active choices and decisions of connection and being together, because then if she's sleeping with someone else and she's also sleeping with me and sex isn't that differentiating fact of that physical event, then what separates and makes our relationship.

Special or more meaningful. So we have to drive deeper down into connections. But now not having that pressure of being everything for her allows me to have that freedom to actually learn and get to know her on different levels because we don't have this physical act of sex. Yeah. That separates us, 

Fer: right?

Yeah. Because we hold onto that [00:26:00] idea of like, this person is mine because they only have sex with me, and therefore I'm valuable and therefore they want me, and therefore we have a connection. And then when you take that out of the picture and it's like, oh, this person loves me because, not because they're not having sex with other people, because they are.

Why does she love me? Yeah. Right. So I think you're both hinting at a process that I think a lot of couples go through when they open up of insecurity of. What is our relationship if it's not exclusivity and if it's not being on the same page and doing the same thing all the time. And one thing that I think a lot of couples realize is how codependent they they are and how to do this successfully.

You have to be able to do your own thing without feeling like you having your own experiences is drawing you away from your partner. And the other way around, like your partner, having their own experiences doesn't mean that [00:27:00] they love you any less, doesn't, doesn't detract from your connection. It actually adds to it.

But that's a concept that it's so difficult to come to terms with because that's not what we're taught. It just takes time to realize how additive and how, how much it it can add to your life to to, to be with other people. 

Speaker 4: And it also, for me, what it, what I come to realize is that I do love her. And I do wanna show up for her now and I wanna, uh, have a deeper connection with her.

But that means I have to like get my stuff straight so I can show up being my best self to her in a monogamous setting. We compromise for everything. We don't necessarily need to compromise now, and I think this is the enmeshment or the taking away or untangling that enmeshment that we've had for almost three decades and saying, okay, [00:28:00] well, like who am I?

What do I want? 

Fer: Mm-hmm. You've both mentioned having to realize how enmeshed you were and having to separate and ask yourself, what do I actually want? So can you maybe be, give an example of what that actually looked like practically? Or Jade, you also mentioned. Realizing of your insecurities and how you needed to better show up.

So can you maybe tell us a little bit more, uh, specifically about like how that showed, showed up in the way that both of you were behaving? You know, 

Speaker 4: there's a lot to unpack there. Uh, when she first brought it up, I, I felt like a, a rift or a disconnect because now we don't share this one thing together anymore.

This 

A: you mean once I started sleeping with other people? 

Speaker 4: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And then wanting for her to do that because she has that desire and that need, and I want her to be [00:29:00] happy, but at the same time, what does that mean for me? And I think that is when it really shown a spotlight on enmeshment. What, what, what is, uh, the context or the assumptions or the.

Uh, unspoken rules of our relationship and how do we reframe those things? 

A: And I wasn't feeling any of that. So you were feeling all of that And I was just like, good, I can have sex with other people now and I can get some relief. Mm-hmm. 

Speaker 4: Right. And then for me it was, okay, well how do I bring up these issues of uncomfortableness in terms of my own insecurities or jealousy?

Or is that person that she's sleeping with, uh, does she like having sex with that person more than me? And then what does it mean when we're intimate? 

J: Mm-hmm. And 

Speaker 4: what the difference is. And that exposed a lot of, I guess, the enmeshment. Mm-hmm. That [00:30:00] I think it's hard for me to still even articulate because I first need to like sit with that emotion and I'm not used to it.

I think. For me, it was just, okay, let me be analytical and logical about this, but I have these like weird feelings I don't even know how to articulate. 

A: And it came out in anger. Yeah. So it's like he would say, yes, you should do this. And so I'd say, okay. And then he'd be angry about other things. Hmm. And it was a lot coming out.

I didn't know what to do 

Speaker 4: a lot coming out at me. Coming at me at the same time. 

A: But he was saying like, what he was saying was, I'm okay with this and yeah, go ahead and do this and I'm glad you're doing this. And, and so I was like, okay. But then, well, a lot of it was around rules. Maybe we can talk about that a little bit.

J: Yeah. I think, yeah. 

Fer: Just, just quickly, we were left when you said. I want a boyfriend. Yeah. And you were like, okay, I need time to [00:31:00] think about it. Oh, right, right, right. So what did that conversation look like? Yeah. And how did you go from there to, to ua? Um, sleeping with other people. Yeah. And then eventually J also sleeping with other people.

A: Yeah. Okay. So I got back from my trip and then it took us about two, two full months. Like it was like October to December of talking about it. Maybe every other day. I couldn't, I wish I could have talked about it every day because I was already doing all the research and learning as much as I could about it.

So I could have answers for him when he asked me about it. But he couldn't talk about it every day. Um, but maybe every other day we would talk about it a little bit. And then finally at the end of December, he said, okay, let's, let's do this. Let's give it a shot. And I remember we shook on it because I was like, I don't know if I can trust him that he's saying he wants to do this.

Um, because. Like I said, he's analytical, so he'll say yes. But then is it really? Yes, I wasn't sure. So I said, if we shake on it, then he'll remember. Like there's proof, [00:32:00] there's like this physical proof. It's not just words. It's like we shook on it. And then, um, we talked to my cousin. My cousin is a university professor.

She's like an a queer advocate. She really does all kinds of relationship work with all different types of, um, populations of people, mostly non-traditional relationships. And she's been in non-traditional relationships. And we had a. Chat with her and she said, whoa, whoa, whoa. Hold the phone first. You should at least go to a sex club and watch each other flirt with other people.

Just start with that. Can you watch J flirt with someone else? How are you gonna handle that? And can J watch you flirt with someone else? How are you gonna handle that? So that was our first kind of foray into swinging non-monogamy, non-traditional life, is that we started going to a club here in Denver.

Fer: Right, but before that, the man that had expressed interest in you? Oh yeah. Nothing happened with him. 

A: Nothing happened with him. She [00:33:00] actually pursued. With his wife 'cause he was married too and they're also open now. Oh. So he and I are both now in non-monogamous open relationships. But nothing happened between us except we kind of, we sparked something within each other that then we took to our re relationships.

And now yeah, they're open. We're open and yeah, he and I are friends now, so it's really fun 'cause we have something really significant in common. Mm-hmm. Um, and we have a very good relationship in that we're very good friends and we have this big thing, but like our moment has passed. But at the time he just sparked something within me that made me come alive in a new way.

Speaker 4: But I would say that at the beginning, uh, when she brought it up, because we've been together for so long, she kind of understood how, uh, to frame it and talk to me about it. And I would say that she was very. Gentle and very kind [00:34:00] because I was very apprehensive at the very beginning. 

J: Mm-hmm. 

Speaker 4: So I tried to think about this logically again, and, but then these emotions would come out and I didn't know how to express it.

I'm still trying to be a better communicator. And you would think that after like 30 years we would know each other and we communicate so well. But it's, uh, made me a lot more aware about how little I'm connected to myself emotionally and being able to express 

Fer: that. Right. Because one thing is to say, Hey, I'm angry at, at you having done this.

I'm sure you already had the skills to communicate that, but how do you communicate? I'm feeling really insecure. Yeah. Because you're having sex with other people and that's making me wonder if I'm valuable and like what? Worth, I bring into the relationship and, you know, this is deeper, right? Like it's very vulnerable to admit that you're jealous and that, that you feel less than because [00:35:00] your partner is having sex with other people.

Like, those are deeper conversations than, oh, you did this, I'm annoyed. You know? Yeah. 

Speaker 4: And, and I didn't want to have those feelings. 

A: Hmm. That's where the anger came in, I think. Yeah. 

Speaker 4: And I was like, uh, this is not comfortable for me. Mm-hmm. So I thought, okay, well, and I didn't know this consciously, but I'm like, okay, well in order to protect myself, let me create a rule.

Let me create this kind of situation or rule so that I don't have to deal with my own jealousy or things like that. And it was almost like this protective wall. And they've come to learn that actually it cre creates a separation. The rules either you're right or you're wrong. 

Fer: So what was the rule? 

Speaker 4: Uh, so the rule was, 

A: there were a few, but I guess one lingered, but yeah, there were a few in the beginning.

Speaker 4: Like, she can do [00:36:00] it when she's traveling, not, I don't wanna know anything about it. If I don't know about it, then I can't really be jealous about the details. Um, but it didn't work 

J: though. 

Speaker 4: It didn't, because, you know, the imagination, it's, uh, oftentimes a lot worse because it's an insecurity and a fear. And so it just fed into that fear for me.

J: Mm-hmm. Uh, 

Speaker 4: a lot more. And I, I felt more of this kind of separation and then I would take it so personally, if there was a questioning of the rule or 

A: if I broke a rule 

Speaker 4: or she if, or she broke. 

A: Well, age, you had a age limit too. 

Speaker 4: Yeah. 

A: And then, you know, because 

Speaker 4: I felt threatened, 'cause I'm older now, being compared to younger men.

A: Mm-hmm. And then you didn't want me to see what, see anyone more than once. 

Speaker 4: Yeah. Because I didn't wanna build up or think that there was a connection happening. [00:37:00] 'cause I would feel threatened in our relationship because again, like if the act of sex isn't what's separating it us uh, it's not bringing us together and there isn't that connection, then I feel a bit separated from her.

So it's like, okay, just one and that's it. Help me digest it. None 

A: of these rules survived. I broke the H one, I broke the sleeping with people more than once one. And then there was one that lasted for a while until I broke that rule too. 

J: Yeah. 

A: Which was, do you remember? 

J: You can, 

A: which was, um, I have to tell him before I do it.

So if I meet someone, he's like, just tell me that. What's gonna, that it's gonna happen. Just text me and say like, okay, my location is on. Um, I'm going to be with whatever. I don't know, Giorgio Armani, I don't know. So whoever the name is and, um Oh, nice. Armani. Yeah. And so, uh, [00:38:00] that was like the last standing rule of just text me beforehand and tell me.

And, and then I didn't do that one either. And that was the last one. And that really caused a huge, huge, huge issue for us. And he really focused on the rule. 

J: Yeah. 

A: And said I didn't love him and that I've never loved him. All this stuff came out that I'm like, wait, what? We've been together for 30 years.

Like, so this has actually been one year since that happened last August. And all of a sudden things I'd never heard him question before. I don't respect him, I don't love him, I don't care about him. I've never loved him, I've never respected him. Like, just all this kind of stuff. And I was like, okay. But it was, it, it was really, really, I think, damaging for us.

And we had a lot of recovery that had had to happen from that. The anger, uh, initially he had told me that that rule [00:39:00] was about safety. He said, that rule, will you tell me physical safety? Physical safety? He's like, you're, I don't know if someone's gonna murder you. Like you're going into a situation with men and they're, they're probably bigger than you are and stronger and I don't know them and.

You're in a different country, so I need you to tell me where you're going and who you're gonna be with. So if anything happens, I know. So I, I knew that's what he was telling me, but I did not like the rule and I did not, instead of confronting him on it and telling him how I felt like it took away my autonomy and took away my agency and took away my ability to like have faith in myself and my judgment, I just broke it.

And then when I told him I'm safe, everything's fine. He didn't care. So then I'm like, this isn't about safety. I don't know what it's about, but I felt like it wasn't about 

Speaker 4: safety. Yeah, there's that logical part of the physical safety aspect, but I felt it as something [00:40:00] other than that as well in terms of like a breach of trust and, you know, the, the concept of the rule I think is a bit flawed because it sets up to then feed into my own fears of.

Worthlessness of insecurity because it says when the world is broken, see, aha. I knew it. So it's, it's almost like a setup, but that was the emotional side that I couldn't like really articulate. Yeah. So this is where it, it kind of collided for me and I didn't know how to address it. 

J: Yeah. And again, 

Speaker 4: as a, as a guy or I think it's gender wise, a bit different for men in general, uh, than women where I think with women, typically it's, uh, more appropriate to talk about these type of emotional [00:41:00] issues or conflict.

But for guys, you just kind of have to grin and bear it and try to figure it out on your own. And there isn't this. A shared space to be able to talk about it emotionally. And that's one of the things that I really appreciate now being in an open relationship because the men that I meet actually are a lot more in touch.

And, uh, I think it was that situation for me to understand like how disconnected I was. 

Fer: Mm-hmm. Um, it's super interesting what you're saying about the rules kind of fitting in, in your, into your insecurities. Yeah. Because I guess, you know, if, for example, the assumption is that if a has sex with someone more than once, that they will form a connection that will detract from yours.

So therefore you setting the rule of she cannot do that. It's in a way [00:42:00] based on that fear mm-hmm. That is somewhat unfounded at the same time. I often advise people to have those rules and those boundaries, because regardless of whether that's true or not, regardless of whether a connection with someone else is going to actually harm your relationship, you can't deny that that's how you feel, right?

Yeah. So it's an interesting balance, whereas, for example, with don't ask, don't tell, right? It's like, I don't wanna know because it triggers me. But then does that mean that I'm not facing the fact that it's okay for that person to do those things and, and why shouldn't I be able to hear about them? But at the same time, it triggers me.

So, you know, to me, I think what's helpful, what has been helpful for Seth has been to just have those rules at first. Mm-hmm. So it's not like everything all at once, you're like hearing about, [00:43:00] because, you know, if a had just been like breaking all, I know she broke the rules, but. Throughout a few months. I, I assume not like at first, right?

So if, if she had been like, I'm just gonna go ahead and have sex with a younger guy and I'm going to see him once a week, not tell you when I go see him, and then give you the details about it when I get back home. You know what I mean? Like, sure. Like you should, in theory, you should be fine with those things.

Like those things shouldn't affect you because her having those experiences doesn't detract from your relationship, et cetera, et cetera. But that doesn't take away the fact that like, if she had done that, it would've been so difficult for you that, you know, a lot of trust would've been broken. So just on that topic of rules and agreements, because I feel like that's a big debate of like, how much should I restrict my partner?

How much should I know? And a lot of people feel like I shouldn't be jealous. I should be able to handle all this, so I'm not gonna put any restrictions. And then. They get [00:44:00] angry. Even like you did when you, even when after putting restrictions, you know? And then they're resentful, they're triggered and all these things because they didn't honor the fact that yes, they're jealous and yes, it's difficult and yes, they don't want their partner to do these things.

So I actually am a proponent of rules or agreements rather, I like to call them agreements at the beginning that limit that insecurity. Yeah. And then with time, as you get more comfortable losing those up, at the same time, those rules shouldn't come from a place of actually believing that what A is doing is wrong.

Right. It because you didn't, right? Like you didn't actually think that? Well, I don't know. That's the 

A: hard part because I did feel like he did think what I was doing was wrong. I did feel that, but I also felt like I need this and he's my partner and I've supported him. Through a lot. I mean, like I said, we've been together 30 years.

I keep saying that, but it's like [00:45:00] the gravity of that I've given a lot into this relationship and things that were his dream, not my dream. And I just felt like because of my hormones, I couldn't really control it. But my brain was saying to me, he should be able to support me now. I've shown my loyalty.

I've shown my faithfulness. I've shown my commitment to him and to our children and to our family for decades, and now I want this thing like he should be on board with it. So in my mind and my heart and my body, I felt like that was true. And so even when he was angry and he'd get angry and I did not break all the rules all at once, I broke them over time and then he's like, okay, that one's not gonna work.

Or that one, it's like he kept lowering the age and it just, every time I'm like, well, like, and what I've learned from that is that. Now that the shoe's on the other foot and he's beginning to have dates and he's beginning to see women without me, which he wasn't doing [00:46:00] before. I'm realizing that I want him to make his own boundaries.

Like I want him to care about our marriage. Instead of me saying like, no, you can't go out with someone more than once, or, no, you can't say I love you to another partner. Like, I don't want any of those rules. I want him to behave in a way that shows his respect for our relationship. So if he behaves in a way where he does keep seeing someone over and over, and he does tell them that he loves them and he does build a strong emotional connection with somebody, then he's also telling me what he wants from our marriage.

And so I want him to always be aware of what he wants and behave in a way that's congruent with what he wants. 'cause when I just had the rules, I didn't think about. Our marriage. I didn't think about, oh, what would Jane be comfortable with or not comfortable with? And let me think about it myself, and what am I a comfortable with?

I just thought, these are my rules and that's what I have to follow. I didn't even have to do any [00:47:00] introspection within my own heart because I had these rules from the outside that were being imposed by someone else. And if anything, I felt like it made me less loving toward him and made me more resentful toward him.

Mm-hmm. And I think without rules, now that I don't have any rules, I'm always thinking about him. I'm always thinking about, well, how would he respond if I did this? Maybe I don't wanna do that then, because I do want to be always behaving in a way that's respectful. He didn't tell me what's quote unquote respectful.

I have to think for myself, what's respectful for me and what behavior I think would be respectful for him. So. I feel like I'm much more caring about his feelings now than I was when I just had to check off rules. 

Fer: Right? Because if you didn't agree with the rule to begin with. If you were like, there's no reason why he couldn't have sex with a 25-year-old.

This is not unsafe. I don't need to tell him beforehand, then you don't even feel like thinking about him. 'cause you don't even agree with the rules. So maybe that's also [00:48:00] why, maybe it's not about rules, it's about agreements. Right. Because if he had said, I don't want you to see someone more than once, and you had said, okay, but I, I want to see people more than once.

How can we like meet in the middle and like Yeah, I didn't know. And And you were just like, okay, whatever. Whatever your rules you say are fine. And then you were like following those, which is why you ended up breaking them. Yes. 'cause they were in agreement. You didn't design them with him. Right. Right.

And 

A: I don't think you can in the beginning. So I think in the beginning when you agree to stuff, especially in this situation, me, 'cause I was the one that brought it up, I'm like, okay, fine, these are your rules. And I didn't know that those rules would be. Impossible for me to follow. Like I didn't know that those rules really went against my ability to judge for myself what's best for my body.

And I didn't know that agency over my own body and autonomy over my own body and being able to do with my body whatever I wanted to do in a way that was keeping us both physically safe and me physically safe. [00:49:00] I didn't know that those rules were going to be so difficult. And one of the things that we've talked about is, gosh, we went into this thinking we could just have rules and never revisit them.

And that's something that we've talked about a lot lately. 

Speaker 4: Yeah. I think that, uh, just to go back, because I think this is this evolutionary process where at first when a is saying that she felt like it was wrong, I don't think that it was like right or wrong, but I think that there was a sense, what I'm picking up here is from her that there was a judgment.

Mm-hmm. And so we can say right or wrong as the judgment, but it was like the judgment was, and I think this is part of just un meshing, that's not something I would do. I, 

A: and religion 

Speaker 4: and, and because of my religious upbringing, something I would do, uh, naturally. And so the, the rules came out. I think there weren't [00:50:00] agreements 'cause they were not things that we had discussed mutually.

The rules were a reaction to protect myself. 

J: Mm-hmm. 

Speaker 4: And I think that there was a rebellion or like, uh, a subconscious or, and just, well, that's not what she wanted, but she's doing it for me so that I don't have to deal with or face my own issues. And so the rules, uh, aren't. It's something that we adhere to now, but I think it was a necessary process to go through.

J: Mm-hmm. 

Speaker 4: Because a lot of it is, okay, how do we, uh, structure this in an open way? Because there's no one way to do an open relationship when you open. There's no structure there. It's what we decide it to be, 

A: but we didn't. And I don't agree that that was the right way to go about it. And I think if we would have educated ourselves more, um, but I [00:51:00] think that you did not wanna know, learn more about it.

I, 

Speaker 4: yeah. I, and so 

A: I was the one that was always doing all the research and reading all the books and you did not have any interest in, it was not an interest of yours. 

Speaker 4: I think that was part of it, because she was the one that brought that concept. So. I just said, okay, then you need to be the responsible one to like understand and research all of this.

But I've come to learn like I need to be an active participant. 

Fer: Mm-hmm. 

Speaker 4: Uh, and, and come to it as well. 

Fer: Yeah. So how did that shift happen from feeling judgmental about non-monogamy in general? Sounds like a puritanical even, I'd say, to being more open or even, you know, maybe we can take one of the rules as an example.

How did you realize, oh, actually this rule is not. Serving us, and I'd rather there not be a rule, um, when, [00:52:00] I don't know when she had sex with someone younger or when she didn't tell you about the sex before she had it or something like that. How, how did this shift happen? Because I've actually been reflecting on this a lot because as we talk about mono open relationships, I'm always like the, the monogamous person should set the pace and you need to be careful and you need to have disagreements and everything.

And then a lot of people, uh, especially in social media are like, but what if the monogamous person is like not making any progress and they are making me wait like two years, or they're asking me to break up with my partners, that's unfair, or, or whatever. Uh, what I realize is that it's an issue when the monogamous person doesn't actually believe that non-monogamy is a fine way to live.

And I feel like I was really lucky that Seth. Even though he never wanted it for himself, he had no judgment towards it. He was like, you do you, [00:53:00] yes, I have my feelings, but I don't see what you're doing as wrong. And I think that was a blind spot for me that like realizing that usually when there's a monogamous person, and I know you're not monogamous, but you were like more monogamous leaning.

Yeah. Usually they're monogamous because they have a judgment towards non-monogamy. Yeah. And that's when things get really tricky. That's when it's harder to go at the pace of the monogamous person because if the monogamous person has this judgment, then the non monogamous person feels judged. It feels like they're not living their truth.

Feels like criticized, feels like the other person is making them feel like they're a bad partner. At the same time they, they feel constricted. All these things, you know? 

J: Mm-hmm. 

A: I absolutely agree with that. And that's really the first time. And like I said, after years, even though J had a Christian upbringing, very.

Strict Christian upbringing and was involved with Christianity as a believer until less than a year before he met me. Um, religion had never come up in our relationship, and then all [00:54:00] of a sudden I started getting lots of what I thought was Christian based judgment against me for the way that I was practicing non-monogamy.

And I was like, where is this coming from? Who is this person? Like, this is my best friend and partner of my entire adult life, and all of a sudden he's treating me like I'm different from he, like he is. I'm like, I don't share his values or like, he knows me more than anybody. He knows that inside we have the same values and yet he's treating me like I'm doing something dirty or wrong or bad.

I didn't know where to go from that 

Speaker 4: or, yeah, I think there was some innate assumptions that stayed buried that didn't come up and never needed to come up unless there are situations like in an open relationship. I think, uh, to tie back to your question with regards to kind of how did the transition [00:55:00] happen from knowing that I'm gonna have a rule and then not having it is really, uh, this really interesting, uh, kind of understanding where I would take it personally if or when she would break a rule, but then reflecting back on myself, I would say, why, why does this hurt me so much?

And then always it's just pointing back to me my own insecurity, my own issues of self-worth. And I think that there isn't this embracing of that or sitting with my own issues 

J: mm-hmm. That 

Speaker 4: I had to deal with. Uh, and just saying like, non-monogamy is bad allows me to not have to deal with it and protect [00:56:00] myself.

But then as I'm questioning why and really just trying to sit with it and I'm not used to that at all. And I think also this has to do with, um, just being a guy not processing or dealing with my own emotions and just like compartmentalizing and saying, okay, I don't feel good about that. Let me not just, let me just tuck that away.

But then it would always come back. And so like, I have these dirty cupboards and I just don't wanna look at them. But then there's situations that come up that shine a light on that. So I'm like, all right, I might as well now just organize it. Let me, let me try and process this. Mm-hmm. And I think that is what was the kind of.

Deconstructing of the rules, 

A: but I also told you, then let's just stop. I was like, you know what? Forget it. Let's just not do this anymore. And you said, no, I wanna keep doing it. I 

Speaker 4: knew that the cupboards were dirty. I knew [00:57:00] that the cupboards were dirty, and there was a lot I needed to sift through. 

Fer: Mm-hmm.

Speaker 4: But I wasn't ready yet to clean. Yeah. And so it just. Took a while, and then when she's like, alright, you don't have to clean at all, let's just stop. I'm like, no, I know that I have to like, 

A: it's like, forget it. It's fine. Know, I, it's too much to, 

Speaker 4: I know I have to deal with this, but just give me a second. I, I just need to catch my breath.

Fer: Yeah. 

Speaker 4: And like try to really kind of embrace, it's like, you know, you're gonna run a marathon, but like the night before it's just like, oh man. Like, I know this is gonna be hard. Do I really want to do it? And that's where it's like, okay, that gives me insight. No, I do wanna do it. 

A: Mm-hmm. I'm 

Speaker 4: like, wait, because I 

A: offered to just say, fine, let's stop.

And 

Speaker 4: I'm like, no, I do wanna do it because I know that that's what she wants and that's how we can connect. And maybe there's something deeper, but I need to sift through all this baggage for myself. And that's why I think that the scaffolding [00:58:00] of the rules help me just to at least get to that position where I can grab onto it and feel.

Comfortable with myself that whatever happens, I'm gonna sift through this and organize this. And the rules helped at the beginning because I wasn't able to deal with that yet. I didn't have the strength. 

A: But helped you. I don't think that they helped us. I don't agree. 

Speaker 4: Yeah. No, they, they weren't good.

That's why we don't have them anymore. 

A: Yeah. But I think that for you, they still felt like you found some comfort in them. I do think the reason I was willing to let you feel comfortable in that space is 'cause I felt like I was getting something that you didn't want. 

Speaker 4: So I come now to and reflect back on the rules with appreciation and gratefulness, even though we don't have them anymore, because that's part of my own acceptance.

J: Mm-hmm. 

Fer: Yeah. And I mean, as I was saying, and I'm curious, hey, what, what you think? [00:59:00] But do you think that. We said maybe having agreements would've been better, but like you just doing whatever you wanted from the beginning would've been the best course of action. 

A: I think what, what was not the correct, and I don't think that clients that come to you are in the same place where we were.

'cause we went into it with, again, just me kind of having done all the education and him having done none of it. I don't think that putting all the responsibility for all of all the, uh, library of information should just be on one person. So that was true for me. But I think we should have revisited the rules as soon as we have to understand that we're going down a journey together.

Mm-hmm. We don't know the game and we can't say, this is the winner and the loser and this is how you play the game. And these are the rules to play the game to get what you want. Yeah. Like we should have known that this is gonna be unknown terrain. We're hiking a mountain, no one's ever hiked before and we need to stop at every rest.

Stop and see if what's. [01:00:00] What we're doing is working for us. But because J didn't wanna talk about it, and it was, don't ask, don't tell. And I was very much left to just the rules and that's it. Like I'd come back from my trips or I would have an experience with somebody and I couldn't talk about it at all, and I couldn't go anywhere with that.

And so he was able to stay in the same place in terms of his growth. 

J: Hmm. 

A: Which is, we're an open relationship. The rules are X, Y, and Z. That's it. We never talked about it again. The only conversations we had is I would say, sorry, I broke that rule because I met someone and he seemed a lot more mature than your average whatever age person.

And then he'd say, so what if he seemed more mature to you? Like it's a number for a reason. It's not gray, it's black and white. There are two numbers there. Those were the rules and. I think that just caused a lot of, instead of saying, wait a minute, why do you have that rule? 

J: Yeah. 

A: And then saying to me, [01:01:00] you know what?

I know I made those rules. But the more we do this, the more you're understanding what you want out of non-monogamy. And maybe the rules that I put in the beginning don't really work with what your goals are at the moment. And you are changing and learning about yourself as you go here because you've never done this before.

It's brand new to you and to me. But it, it definitely felt like because he was the one that was not as interested, he made the rules and my only job was to just follow the rules. And he was not accepting that I was also growing and changing and learning about myself. And 

Fer: you couldn't even share that, right?

No, because I guess the ideal situation would've been like, okay, there's no like rules per se, but approaching each encounter as its own little experiment. And that's kind of like what I work with my clients. Yeah. I'm like, if there's this like rule. But then you, you meet someone and you're like, oh, this person is really mature.

Then, you know, it would be great if you could have like gone back and been like, [01:02:00] well, I met this person, they're really mature, blah, blah, blah. And then J could have been like, okay, well that's fine. I think actually I feel okay with that. Or, or no, you know, whatever. Yeah. But like you couldn't have those conversations because there was this judgment and this idea of like, you deal with it on your own.

As long as you don't let it affect our connection, then we're good. Yeah. Yeah. Because what you're saying a little bit with the rules and the judgment is, you know, instead of dealing, for example, with the fact that I feel insecure because I'm aging, I'm just going to say that she can't have sex with people under a certain age because it's quote unquote wrong.

Right. Or whatever it is. But any tips, because I mean, what you're talking about is I think. Everyone's challenging. Non-monogamy. Okay. This is exposing, for example, that I have insecurities about aging. I'm having these feelings and I don't want these feelings to restrict my partner. [01:03:00] How did you deal with those feelings?

Are those insecurities things that you're still dealing with? Uh, what has helped you feel better about it? Because it sounds like, even though I'm sure there's still insecurities and things, you are in a much better place than whenever it was that you were like, okay, let's not do it. This is complicated.

Yeah. Like it doesn't sound like, yeah, a year ago. It doesn't sound like it's that complicated anymore. So, any tips for the listeners who might be facing these insecurities within themselves? If you want to hear the answer to this question, make sure to subscribe to the podcast for part two coming out in a couple of weeks.

Or join my patron where the recording is already available. For those of you who cannot wait. Okay guys, thanks for listening. And remember, if you found this helpful and you think it might help someone, make sure to share it.