Episode 65

J: [00:00:00] Being an open relationship, it shines a spotlight on things that you never saw coming and then makes you deal with it. And I think that part of it is just, if you're gonna do this, you have to just like fully accept yourself. Like your flaws, they're there. You don't victimize or put yourself down for it.

J: You accept it and then you can then begin working on it.

Fer: Hi everyone. Welcome to Polycurious. I am Fer relationship coach and host of this podcast, and today we have part two of my conversation with a and j. If you have not listened to part. One yet, I will highly, highly recommend that you do that before listening to this one. In part one, we talked a lot about rules and whether it's good to even have any of those in the process of opening up your relationship.

Fer: They talked about how J insecurities were [00:01:00] dictating the rules of the relationship, but in the past few months, they've actually transitioned to not having any. Rules per se. And that has required Jay to really dig deep into the things that were making him feel insecure and deal with that. And we pick up the conversation when I ask him, okay, you're not letting those insecurities dictate your relationship, but are they still there?

Fer: How do you manage them? And something that I really loved about what he said is that. It is not about eliminating those insecurities. It is about being aware of those insecurities and working on them, and part of it has to do with acceptance, both acceptance that you are feeling that way, and acceptance of yourself and your unique characteristics that might make you different from the people that you're partner is engaging.

Fer: And you can be aware of them and still not let them rule your life, right? So if you're asking your partner for [00:02:00] something because of an insecurity that you have, that can be okay, especially at the beginning, but you have to be aware that that's what's happening and you have to be working on your insecurity.

Fer: Now, this can mean different things, right? There are some things that you. Can't work on, right? So if you are jealous because your partner is dating someone who plays an instrument and they're making music together, and you are not a musical person, working on your insecurity doesn't mean that you're gonna go and pick up a guitar and start playing, right.

Fer: It just means that you are working on accepting the fact that you not playing an instrument, doesn't make you deficient, doesn't make you worse than anyone else. And centering in other things that you do get to enjoy with your partner and create with your partner, even if it's not music. However, in other cases, those insecurities are things that you can work on.

Fer: So Jay talks about how a, having sex with younger men expose the insecurities that he has around his body and how he looks and his age. So non-monogamy has [00:03:00] actually contributed to his desire to. Work on that, and now he's been going to the gym and doing a keto diet. But what's important is that it's not about Jay thinking, I need to look like ACE partners.

Fer: Right? It shouldn't be a comparison. You shouldn't try to be like someone else. But if non-monogamy reveals that there's something that you feel insecure about, then you can definitely. Work on it if you want to, while also being gentle with yourself and being okay if you are not at the point where you want to be or if it's really hard for you, and maybe you'll never get to be the ideal version of yourself.

Fer: And that's also fine. And I think it's about accepting all of ourselves today. We also talk about the reasons why Jay has been a lot slower in his exploration of non-monogamy since we recorded this interview. I'm happy to report that he's been on a date. He actually had a great time and felt like it really opened up his [00:04:00] world.

Fer: However, he never pushed himself to do something that he didn't feel comfortable with, and part of it was because of his religious upbringing and having to learn to let go of that. So I think A and JR just a good example of how it's okay to go at different paces and each person is in their own process of non-monogamy and.

Fer: There's no point in forcing yourself to date other people just because your partner is doing it. It feel needs to feel right and aligned for you. And also if it's not right and aligned for you, that doesn't mean that it's not right and aligned for your partner. And it's not about judging what the other person is doing.

Fer: It's about talking about the ways in which you can reach agreements, and that might take time and that's okay. And it's okay to restrict yourself a little bit at points or restrict your partner. It needs to be an ongoing conversation and there needs to be progress in the name of each of you living your most authentic lives.

Fer: If there's someone that comes to mind as you listen to this episode that [00:05:00] you think might benefit from it, make sure to share the podcast. There's a lot of people who need this information and these resources, and all you need to do is copy paste the link and send a quick text message. So I would encourage you to do that if there's anyone that you think might learn from this conversation.

Fer: Okay, let's get into it. Here is part two of my conversation with a and j.

Fer: What you're saying a little bit with the rules and the judgment is, you know, instead of dealing, for example, with the fact that I feel insecure because I'm aging, I'm just going to say that she can't have sex with people under a certain age because it's quote unquote wrong. Right. Or whatever it is. But any tips, because I mean, what you're talking about is I think.

Fer: Everyone's challenging. Non-monogamy. Okay. This is exposing, for example, that I have insecurities about aging. [00:06:00] And I, I'm having these feelings and I don't want these feelings to restrict my partner. Are those insecurities things that you're still dealing with, uh, what has helped you feel better about it?

Fer: Because it sounds like even though I'm sure there's still insecurities and things, you are in a much better place than. Whenever it was that you were like, okay, let's not do it. This is complicated. Yeah. Like it doesn't sound like, yeah, a year ago. It doesn't sound like it's that complicated anymore. So any tips for the listeners who might be facing these insecurities within themselves?

J: Take it at your own pace. The way I think about it is like there is this dinner table with all my different personalities and securities confident, like all of that. And knowing that these guests that come to dinner, these other versions of me, they will always be there. But I get to choose which one gets to lead the conversation.

J: And for [00:07:00] me it was the insecurity, these other things that I just gave the floor to. And it was like, wait, I don't have to give the floor to you. You can be there. And I think that the, this kind of. Anxiety, apprehension. Uh, the insecurity, uh, it's not like I'm going to tell you to get out. You are part of me.

J: You help me probably at a certain moments in my life beforehand, but you're not serving me right now because what I want to do is have a deeper connection. That's my number one priority with her. And so I'll hear you. And I'll hear your, your issues. So it's not creating a tension where I'm trying to deny it because that is what pushes me into the rules, not having to deal with it and just deny it.

J: So you're welcome, but you don't get to lead [00:08:00] the conversation. So I'll listen to you and embrace you, and maybe you have some insights that I have to think about, but I'm not gonna let you control. What the outcome or the action will be. And so just sitting with that and I think that's more of like self-acceptance and that what is, what goes, okay, well, I need to just accept myself, know that I'm insecure, know that I have.

J: Issues of worthiness that I wanna try to unpack. Does this really serve me now? Because the younger version of myself didn't know about the world or didn't have to deal with an open relationship, so now I'm needing to like figure this out. So I invite all of them in. But then I, I can sit back and reflect, and I think that's one of the biggest things that I've learned in terms of an open relationship, uh, is there's just so much more self-reflection and there's just so much more kind of evolution and new things will come up all the time, and, uh, [00:09:00] partners need to be aware of that.

J: It's just gonna be this rollercoaster ride. So if one person is monogamous and another person is open, the person that. Is monogamous and just say, okay, all the work is on you. Like it. You as the monogamous person is also gonna have to deal with stuff. You're gonna have to deal with your own growth. That doesn't stop you or give you an excuse to put all the responsibility onto someone else.

J: That is like leading us. So I think that is where it's like, okay, I need to put in my own work. And that's what I've come to the realization of. And that's how like then the rules start to kind of, the scaffolding can go away because now I'm building up my own foundation. Who am I and what is the best version of myself that I can come to the table with here for her?

J: And that's constantly changing and evolving. And the rules helped at the beginning,

Fer: right? You're not saying I don't have those insecurities, you're just saying those [00:10:00] insecurities aren't driving me anymore. Which I think it's a very valuable lesson as in, you know, you can still feel insecure that A has sex with younger people or whatever it is.

Fer: But you are choosing to make another decision that's not based on that insecurity and just being like accepting. I think that's the biggest part, like accepting that you feel insecure about your age instead of being like, no, I don't feel insecure about my age, but I don't want her to have sex with younger people because that's morally wrong or something.

Fer: Right? So it's just being like, okay, yes, I do feel insecure about it, and you know what I'm going to choose. To make a different decision. And I'm not saying again, if, if like you feel insecure about it and the decision is like, no, that really, really makes me feel insecure and that's really important to you.

Fer: There's also not, nothing wrong with if, if your partner agrees with it of having that rule or that agreement rather based on the insecurity. I don't think that you should always [00:11:00] act as your. Ideal self, because sometimes you just have to admit that that's not where you're at. And that's also fine. But I think that if you're able to put that insecurity aside and choose to do what aligns more with your values or with, you know, as you were saying, showing up for your partner and not thinking so much about your insecurities, but thinking about like where your partner is coming from.

Fer: That can be very helpful while still feeling it. Right. But I, I, I'd be curious to hear like, does it get easier? Like do you feel less insecure now, or, or do you just feel like you've gone into, as you said, not let the insecurity lead the conversation, but it's still there?

J: Yeah. I,

Fer: I think you should point out, you've made a huge

A: physical change as well, so it's like you've also taken this on to bring vitality back into your own life.

J: So specifically when it comes to like the age thing, like I'm like, okay, well where [00:12:00] does that really stem from? And what I realized is I'm not happy with myself and so I need to do that. And I think that, uh, addressing those and like having that light shine back on me and then being able to confront it takes courage.

J: I think courage is a habit. I think that the more things that you do that are courageous and you're like, shit, I did that. That gives that self-confidence and then that has its own momentum, and I think that's one of the side effects I had not saw coming when it comes to an open relationship. And that's the self work that I'm doing and I think that.

J: That's why when she said, okay, well stop. I'm like, oh, no, we, we shouldn't. I know that. I need to work on myself, and this is gonna prompt me and force me to deal with my own [00:13:00] issues.

A: But you've completely changed your body.

J: Like that's a physical manifestation, an action based off of a decision to be courageous.

J: Once I'm courageous and then I'm like, okay, I did that. That gives me the confidence because now I can trust myself because I know I've done that. And so that those are part of the issues that I've had to deal with. Mm-hmm. And then I'm like, wait, I can trust myself. I, I, I don't, I don't have to give that agency to her with a rule.

J: So now that can change. And I think that is one of the key things, like just in general that I've learned is that there needs to be this reflection period. Like I'm always kind of of the mindset, okay, move forward, move forward, move forward, and not sit back and reflect. And so I think that reflection.

J: Really is important just to have like a check-in or times where we connect and I'm like, that is what's valuable in terms of our relationship. That is what makes our [00:14:00] relationship deeper. That is what separates our relationship with other people that she may sleep with. Like this sex thing is just a superficial act, and so this is where I can connect and this actually allows me to enrich myself as well, and that feels right.

J: And so this is where now I think I've reframed the, like, having the rules which are reactionary to protect myself to then letting the rules like fade away and when things come up, having and making it so that I'm responsible. For how I'm reacting to it. And I think that's what a is saying too of like no rules gives you the freedom to show up how you are and say this relationship is the most important.

J: And she can see that, that I am always prioritizing the relationship. Whereas in monogamy, you're just [00:15:00] like, okay, checkbox cruise control for 56 or whatever. Right, and that's when it's like you, and that's

A: where we were at. We

J: were,

A: because I did the heavy lifting in terms of, and I don't know, I, I really do believe.

A: Most women do this work in a monogamous, heterosexual relationship of the emotional work. And I think I always did the heavy lifting of like, how do you feel about this? Or have you thought about this? Or, you know, you seem a little bit upset. Let's talk about this. Is something bothering you at work? Like he never had to do any of that work on his own.

A: He always had me to, and we worked together as well. So he always had me to. Be that voice for him. And now I'm in a completely different situation and he's like, shoot, I really have to rely on myself. I don't wanna burden her with it. I need to pull myself up and look [00:16:00] inside without her asking. And I think you wanted to.

A: Like what you see. And I think that's where all the working out. I mean, he's done a lot of working out this summer, changed his diet completely to keto. Like he's just had a lot of physical changes and I think that's part of, it's like you're becoming someone that you want to look at.

Fer: Yeah. And you know, it's, I, I am really glad you brought that up because you know, my question was like, okay, then you know, you're insecure, you put the insecurity aside, but then you choose differently.

Fer: Is that it? And you're like, no, I. I'm working on the thing that makes me insecure. Yeah. So, so I feel insecure about the way I look. I'm going to work out. Yeah. And I'm going to choose to not let that insecurity dictate the, the way a relates to other people. Yeah. So I'm going to work on myself. So I think that that's the beauty of non-monogamy.

Fer: I've been reflecting about that because I think what's also important in that process is that you're not working out from a place of. Oh, I [00:17:00] need to look better than the people that A is having sex with. Right? Like if it, if it's coming from that place, then it's not really healthy. But if it's coming from a place of, yeah.

Fer: You know what? I actually been meaning to like work out more and be healthier and I would like to look better and this is a good opportunity for me to do that. That's, that's different. My partner John, is dating someone who is very like, chill and, you know, spoken and a little bit of a people pleaser.

Fer: She's wonderful. I, I love her and she's amazing, but. I had to come to terms with that insecurity of like me being very straightforward and not as sensitive. And you know, John has made comments when I bring things up saying, oh, why are you saying it in this way? Or Why are you so direct? And I know it's coming a little bit from mm-hmm.

Fer: His experience with being with someone. I mean, it was already kind of a thing before her, but from his experience [00:18:00] being with someone who's more softer. Yeah, a lot softer and I'm not, yeah. Mm-hmm. So then I, I started getting really insecure about that. Yeah. Because again, I know her and I do admire how nice she is Yeah.

Fer: And how comfortable she makes people feel. And then I started feeling like really insecure about me not being that soft and comforting and, and just. Yeah. You know, nice in that way. And then I was like, you know what? I think this is a good opportunity for me to be a little bit. More sensitive and to learn to be a little bit more, not like her necessarily.

Fer: Yeah. But, but that was already an insecurity that I had. Yeah. It's not like I had this insecurity because she came along, along, like I had already identified. I need to be more careful with my words. I need to be more sensitive. I need to be a little bit less direct. So people actually what I'm saying, so my reflection was okay.

Fer: I'm glad that I'm working on this, but I shouldn't work, be working on this because I want to be like [00:19:00] her. Right, right. Like, I should be working on this because I believe that I, I could do better if I worked on this. But also the hard part is to not feel really bad about yourself for not being that way.

Fer: Right. So like being like, yeah, I have this thing that. I need to work on, like I'm not as fit as I would like to be, but not being like, I suck because I'm not fit and this other person is better or whatever. But also to be able to realize how. Even the thing that you are working on or the thing that you are different from the other person.

Fer: You also have like positive things like your age has positive things like you have experience, you, uh, you know, have, like, know how to use your body better in bed 'cause you've had like more years to figure that out, whatever. Yeah. And you would like to look younger, right? Like my. Directness and my way of communicating can be really great because I really know how to speak up.

Fer: And actually John really admires that I live so authentically. Yeah. And that I [00:20:00] speak my mind. And also I could be more sensitive about how I approach things. Right. So I think that in this process of opening up. Our relationship and having to deal with those insecurities is important to understand that you are a human with, with complex and very specific characteristics.

Fer: Yeah, and some things are good, some things are bad, some things are great, and you can work on those things without. Feeling like you are worse or better than someone else, you know? Yeah. I think

J: there's this, um, and this is why like being in open relationship, it shines a spotlight on things that you not never saw coming and then makes you deal with it.

J: And I think that part of it is just, if you're gonna do this, you have to just like fully accept yourself. Like your flaws, they're there. You don't victimize or put yourself down for it. You accept it and then you can then begin working on it. So like for example, last [00:21:00] night we went to this goth EDM show and we were running a little bit late and so I was gonna wear this like fishnet see-through top.

J: You know, I have this like body insecurity and I was like,

A: which you, I mean really even before you started doing keto and working out, you still had an amazing body. I just don't wanna make it sound like you went from not having good body. 'cause you've, I never understood why he had body insecurity,

Fer: but we all have our own things, right?

Fer: Yeah, yeah. No, I mean, you both look amazing. In case listeners were wondering,

J: well, I think that like, this is another thing I'll just. Briefly mentioned, there's like this whole like I think now with men in general, in general society like, which was different than like 30 years ago, there was this like beauty standard for women.

J: But now like culturally there is definitely a beauty standard for men and I think that there's could be issues and guys don't talk about like body dysmorphia as much and like body insecurity. [00:22:00] So that is something that like culturally now just when you look around. Shirtless guys, if you go to the park that we're at, all these shirtless guys are like, so fit, especially I think maybe it's even more so in like Denver than other parts of the country.

J: Um, and anyway, so uh, we're going to this goth, EDMI had this like see-through fish. Shirt, tank top, tank top, and uh, we're running a little bit late and typically I would say, okay, let me like wear another shirt over it. And so that, you know, I don't have to expose my body. And it was shocking to me where I like just innately.

J: Because I'm dealing with my own issues. I was like, screw it. Let me just wear this fishnet top. And I wore it the whole night.

A: Even to the non goth EDM. Yes. And you look great, by the way. Thank you. Sent me some pictures. Yeah.

J: Thank you. So it, it, it was,

A: yeah, he looks incredible.

J: It, it, it [00:23:00] was like a little bit shocking for me 'cause when I reflect back.

J: I would not have done that three months ago at all. So

Fer: again, and it's like being aware of the insecurity and choosing differently. Like, I'm insecure about wearing this shirt, but I want to feel good about my body, so I'm going to choose to wear it.

J: So when I'm working on myself. I see myself change and evolve.

J: Uh, and I think that is the proof for me that I'm doing this for myself, not as a competition or reaction, uh, to just other situations and I feel good about myself. And so that is kind of this guiding light.

Fer: Mm-hmm.

J: When I'm dealing with myself full acceptance. So even with like saying that, uh,

A: well, Friday night I had a date And you were okay to hear about it.

J: Yeah. Yeah. So it's like things are just changing completely

A: different. It's never happened before. Yeah.

J: I, that's why the rules, I [00:24:00] think were not okay. But that's where I was at. A year ago, two years ago, but now I'm not at that place anymore. So it's really about personal growth and if you can see that personal growth in yourself, that is for me at least, what gives me the confidence to continue doing this and finding out more about myself.

J: So I feel like this is making me better, and I think that is what's enriching and that's what is exciting. And this is where. I don't know where this is gonna go, who knows? Um, but there's, they say

A: all roads lead to Pauline. That's what they say from the beginning. All roads lead to play. I don't know if that's true, but

Fer: Yeah.

Fer: Actually, maybe let's touch on that because I mean, I love that wave garden so deep, but I think, uh, listeners might be wondering like, what's your non-monogamous structure, right? Yeah. Uh, because I think you went to that sex club. Yes. So you have. And you have seen each other having sex with other people.

Fer: Yes. Yes. So you have done [00:25:00] that in that context. Yes. But also after that. A, you travel a lot. Yes. So most of your non-monogamy was when you were traveling? Yes. But as you were just saying, you just went on a date. Yes. Date on Friday. So you changed that, so, right. I know that you were both playing at the sex club and then a.

Fer: Would mostly have sex with people when she traveled. Yes. And mostly in a casual way. And I think that's still the case, right? Yeah. Like it, your connections with other people are mostly sexual. Yes.

A: Sexual and friendly. Like I love, I mean really I'm in this for the connection and I, that's something that appealed to me about you from the beginning to far is like I just.

A: I just crave connection with other human beings in any way I can get it. And this is just another way for me to get it. And because of my hypersexual libido at this time, it's just a perfect mix. It's a new way for me to explore connection with other people. But yeah, I don't [00:26:00] have, like, I'm not really thinking about them in any way other than I hope they're okay.

A: Like men that I've slept with or women that I've slept with. All I think is like, I hope they're well, but it's not like I have an emotional, um. Like connection to them. But if they reach out and you know, I'm happy with the friendships and we talk about this sometimes with being a woman, I can say to men like, Hey, I'm not looking for anything, or I'll never be your girlfriend, or we're not gonna text.

A: Like I can say all that stuff and the guys are like, okay, cool. But then we have that conversation a lot with Jay that he says like, I can't just say that to women. I can't just be like, I'll never be your boyfriend. Don't text me.

J: Well, like as an older man, especially if it's a younger woman. And I'm like, we're just gonna do this once.

J: Don't talk to me. Don't text me afterwards and we're done after this.

A: I'll never be your boyfriend. I'll never

J: be your boyfriend. Like this is not going anywhere. Just know that from the beginning. Likes a different, I know.

Fer: It's so interesting.

J: It's a different dynamic when an [00:27:00] older man would say that to a younger woman.

J: And so this is where it's like their societal constructs it. That's not

A: fair. Yeah. You would tell me it's not fair. Yeah.

J: But that's what I really appreciate about the sex club actually. It's really interesting and really insightful for me because you're there at a sex club, so everyone knows that sex is on the table.

J: But because you know that sex is on the table, you can actually, literally,

Fer: there's sex on the, on the table.

J: You, you can, there is this really interesting new type of connection I can have with women because I, I don't have to think, oh, in the back of their mind, is this guy hitting on me? And I don't have to think, okay, I don't want to be a creep.

J: Mm-hmm. So then they

A: know you're hitting on them.

J: So if I do, yeah. They're like, totally, that's fine. Because that's a context of that's Yeah. Happening. And actually I can have a decent conversation with a woman. Like that whole aspect of that was something that I didn't know that was really appealing to me.[00:28:00] 

J: And I guess there's this whole kind of, I don't know if you call it the feminine side or that emotional side, that it's like. As a guy, you're supposed to suppress that, and that, that's something that's deemed as weak and I come to learn like it's actually the opposite.

Fer: What's deemed, deemed as weak.

J: Talking about your emotions. Mm-hmm.

Fer: Mm-hmm.

J: Talking about your feelings. Mm-hmm. Talking about your insecurities being vulnerable. Mm-hmm. And I think that's where this self-reflection comes in and this growth comes in and this new aspect where it's like, well, I didn't even know it was missing. That I can now tap into.

J: Mm-hmm. And being able to go to the sex club and just talk to women and just be free to talk is just really exciting. Yeah. I think all of it is just coming back to just acceptance, whatever, you know, way I dealt with things. I needed to deal with that in that way. But we are [00:29:00] always evolving, always changing, and have to understand that doesn't serve me anymore.

J: Now I can change and I can improve. Uh, and I think that is kind of the, the premise of it. Mm-hmm. And I'm excited to see like who and what shows up. Yeah. Now, instead of being afraid of it, and like if that other personality of mine comes to the knocking on the door, wanting to sit at the table. I don't have to be afraid of opening that door.

J: I'm, I'm more than happy to bring them in. Uh, and I think that is where the review and the reflection comes in too. Let me think about this. Does this serve me? And if it doesn't, if it doesn't serve our relationship, um, like what do I need to do to change? Or what is it telling me about myself? Uh, so there's a lot of self work, I think more than, uh, more than I expected.

Fer: Mm-hmm. So you've been going to the sex club? Yes. A has been [00:30:00] traveling. Yes. Although now you decided to stay here this summer? Yes. So now you're dating here? Yes. Uh, for the first time since you made that rule?

A: Yes.

Fer: But Jay, you've uh, only been at the sex club. Yes. You haven't decided to date separately, so I wanted to ask you why that is.

J: Uh, I'm still trying to figure out what I want 'cause. You know, going into a relationship and being monogamous for a long time, like we got together before there were apps and all of that, and I never had to think about any of that. Uh, so I kind of turned that off. Uh, and would think that, okay, I am needing to be in this monogamous relationship.

J: I can't have those thoughts. So even if they would come up, I would just not think about them. But now I'm letting them in and I'm like really figuring out, okay, well what, what do I want? Well, what do I need? What does really, uh, [00:31:00] attract me?

A: But you are going on a date.

J: I am.

A: Yeah,

J: I am. I'm a little nervous.

J: Um, I don't know how to be the, I don't know, single guy, you know, like, but

A: you're not,

J: I'm not, but you know what I mean?

A: You're have to be a single guy, not, not a single guy, be a married guy all day, but like,

J: know how to like, flirt. Know how to like, you know, be attractive or at, because as a guy, again, this is just conditioning, just like decades and decades of conditioning.

J: Um, you know, I don't wanna be a creep. So I never let that flirty side or that part of me out, so I don't know how to do that. Uh, and so, uh, I'm embracing it and coming to terms with it, and so I think that's why I, I'm taking it slow and I'm okay with taking it a little bit slower.

Fer: Yeah. Yeah. And I'm glad that [00:32:00] you are listening to yourself and taking your time and you know, when it happens, it'll be, you'll feel right.

Fer: You're not, and that's another thing I admire also about Seth, that he's not like, oh, my, my partner is dating all these people. I should be dating other people because otherwise I'm not as much of a man because, you know, why wouldn't I want, you know, what we were talking about earlier.

J: Yeah. Um, that I think is real confidence.

Fer: Yeah. No, it is, it is really, it's really, um, impressive. So tell us about this date. Potential date that's going to happen. Sounds like.

J: So we met this couple, uh, early on when we started going to the club. Uh, and, uh, a has been in contact with them. Like for me, just in general, I'm not. Into like social media and texting and, and all of that, but a is a little bit more into it.

J: Uh, and so she's been keeping, and she's really good at keeping up relationships, but

A: that's also been my job in our relationship. [00:33:00] Like, you know, when you're coupled like there's things that he's in charge of, there's things I'm in charge of. Yeah. And so he's never had to develop that muscle of like keeping a social calendar or making friends.

A: Yeah. Yeah. Same here. I'm like the one who's like here, all the friends. Right. Yeah. Become friends with Seth. Exactly. Same. So it's always been that way. It's like, here are all our new friends now, and Jay go be friends with those people and he'll say, okay. And so he's just never done that.

Fer: Yeah.

A: He's just never had to have a Yeah.

A: And so now it's like, yeah, no social media, no texting. He's now having to like ask someone out on a date.

J: Yeah. So actually it was, uh, this morning that. Like I said, okay, like I should, we, we had this, like let's do it. Like let's do this. Well, she

A: asked me like, yeah, would Jay wanna go on a date with me? And so I asked Jay, do you wanna go on a date with her?

A: And he said, yes. I said, okay. But then he didn't,

J: I [00:34:00] didn't set the time. You didn't, I wasn't leading it.

A: He wasn't leading it. And she said to me like, look, if he wants this, he's gonna have to do it. And I said. 100%. Yes. You deserve that. If he wants it, he's gonna have to do it. Like I'm, we're not gonna just make the whole date for him.

A: Like she needs to feel desired.

Fer: Jay, here are the tickets to the show.

A: We kicked out for you. Yes. Right? Yes. Right. She should feel desired.

J: Yeah,

A: I just think that's only fair.

J: And, and so I was like thinking this morning, just reflecting now, I was like, wait, it's almost the end of the month and we're supposed to do this this month.

J: And I was like, wait, how come didn't, oh, oh shit. Like I'm the one that's supposed to like set it up. And I'm like, wait, what? And so this morning I, I texted and I said, okay, let's do this. How about this date? Or, and so now we're working that out. Um, and that's part of this kind of. Uh, I don't know. I don't know if you call it a single guy or whatever, just, but just like, [00:35:00] okay, if I want this, I need to go and get after it.

J: Yeah.

Fer: Yeah. My wife isn't doing it for

A: me.

J: Yeah. No, no. Yeah.

Fer: So, and a how do you feel about that? Because we talked a lot about how, you know, your exploration brought up a lot of insecurities for Jay. I know he hasn't explored separately as much, but you've seen him have sex with other people when I

A: wasn't having sex.

A: So I've seen him, but again, I was there, but I've, yeah, I've seen him be with other women and me not participating and that does not ever bring up feelings of jealousy for me watching him with other women. I think you can agree to that. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think it's cool. Um, I know how much Jay enjoys women.

A: It just, it should not be just for me. Like he really, really, truly enjoys women. And so watching him, and I guess that's Compersion, um, watching him with other women, I, he just looks so joyful that it's almost impossible for me to think anything other than, oh, [00:36:00] like I love seeing him feel joyful and I know how joyful I am when I'm.

A: Having other experiences. And so I also put that on him when I was doing it and he wasn't doing it. Um, he couldn't put himself in my shoes. He couldn't say, oh, when I do it, it feels good. So I know that when she does it, it feels good. Like all he saw is. I don't do this and I don't like that she's doing it.

Fer: So when you'd seen a, having sex with other men, has it brought up insecurities? Is that something that you don't like to just to what?

J: So what I've come to learn is that there would be, and we were talking about this the other day, a and I, in terms of how do I confront my own, like jealousy. And what I've realized is that, and I didn't even really understand.

J: It was envy. I didn't even understand the difference between jealousy and envy, and that's where it's like [00:37:00] opening up the relationship brings out the spotlight, and really, it wasn't like jealousy. I was envious of it, and why am I envious of it? And asking and continually asking myself why. Always.

Fer: So you were envi as in you wanted what A was having, 'cause that's how I understand MB as opposed to jealousy.

J: Yeah. Yeah. I want that too.

Fer: Mm-hmm.

J: That it's not that she gets it. I, I can't have it, but like, I kind of want that too. I'm like, wait, that is something that I need to like, kind of understand. Um,

A: so like resentment more. That you want what I'm doing with that person, or if I'm enjoying it, I

J: wanna be able to have that experience too.

J: And, and a has been saying, and she came to her own conclusion of like, he's not gonna really understand unless he has that too. Yeah. And so I was like, oh wait. Yeah. It's, it's this envy it. Uh, yeah. I guess. Uh,

A: but you [00:38:00] didn't wanna watch me have sex with other people before, like it's not enjoyable to you when you've seen it.

J: I've seen it,

A: but you didn't.

J: And then afterwards, I, I'm reflecting on it and it's just like, oh, I, I want that too. And I see how much compersion she has for me. And so I, I can trust that. And I, and she tells me that she does a really good job of communicating that to me, that really helps me with my own insecurities and my feelings of, uh, worthiness or trust

Fer: communicating what

J: that she wants that.

J: For me and she like likes that, that she can watch and that I have joy and I'm like, yeah, I never really tapped into that kind of. Fulfillment before. 'cause in a monogamous relationship, having those thoughts are threatening to the marriage. But now that is off the table. I can explore that and what do I want?

J: Who am I [00:39:00] attracted to? What kind of connection? So

Fer: it helps you not to feel like you're doing something wrong when she's like, oh, I'm so glad you had a good time with this lady, or whatever.

J: Yeah. And so it's interesting to, because. Yeah, I guess I, I do love women.

A: Yeah, he loves women. I,

J: I do. And I, I, that's a side of me that I guess I suppressed,

Fer: right?

J: I, I had to trade it in, right, in a monogamous relationship. So again,

Fer: that's, that's probably also the religious upbringing of, even though obviously she's okay with it, you're a sex club or that's what you're there to do. If you have sex with, or when you have sex with other women, there's still a part of you that's like, uh, like I'm doing something wrong.

Fer: So then a being like, I'm so glad you had fun. Like helps you being like, okay, I'm fine. I'm not doing anything wrong. And actually I can lean into that. I can lean into my desire for other women without feeling shame about it. But it sounds like [00:40:00] there's still some residual shame there.

J: Oh yeah, absolutely.

J: There's always gonna be, I think, echoes. Mm-hmm. Of that. And I just have to like know that and how do I deal with that and how do I navigate that so that shame isn't the overriding voice,

A: I don't think it will be. I just have a really strong feeling that. The more he's with other women, the more he's going to discover who he is because we have such a code between us and, you know, shorthand and he, he doesn't have to grow in some places, and I'm, he's overgrown in other places when he's with some new women, more and more new women.

A: Who Jay is will be more and more exposed, and I can't wait for that because I think what you're gonna, you're what you're gonna find is that you are amazing and desirable and [00:41:00] wonderful and funny and smart and all the good things because I feel that way when I'm. In my situ on my dates, right? Like I'm like, wow, I'm really funny.

A: Or Wow, I'm really beautiful, or, wow, I'm really smart. Or all the things that I feel when I meet somebody that doesn't know I'm married, doesn't know about my family, doesn't know what I got on the SAT, like when they're just meeting me as who I am right at this moment, at 51 years old and they're liking me.

A: There's a real. Confidence and self-awareness. Like, ooh, who am, who am I? Oh, I'm someone that likes, uh, a red jacket on a guy, like, you know, whatever it is. So it's like he's gonna be able to find out his preferences. He's gonna be able to say, who am I? What do I like about myself, and what am I impressed with about myself?

A: Because that's what you show a new person. Yeah. And I can't wait for you to discover. [00:42:00] All the things you love about yourself.

J: Yeah. Yeah. And I think that is where it's like, I, even now, and I didn't understand this before, 'cause you're swimming in the waters of monogamy, like why is it that this one person that I met and together with 30 years ago needs to now fulfill all my needs as I get older too?

J: Uh, and that's just not fair. And so. I don't want to put that on her. And then that makes me think,

A: because that causes resentment.

J: Yeah.

A: Putting that on the other person, like, you must fulfill all my needs and if you don't fulfill them, I'm just gonna be resentful of you.

Fer: Right. And that's also what would've happened to you if you had got like gone through menopause.

Fer: I mean, it was happening when you were like, let's have sex twice a day. And Jay was like, no, you would've been like resentful. Yes. You know that, that you couldn't have as much sex as you wanted. Yes. Whereas now. You know, it's not like you're neglecting your relationship, your sexual relationship with Jay.

Fer: You're [00:43:00] just getting yes, the extra that you need. Elsewhere, you know? Yes.

A: And I do need it. Like, like I said, you know, I always say I have a PhD in monogamy, and Jay tells me that I'm really like a tenured professor in monogamy. I think we both are. Yeah. You know, we did it for so long and we did it right.

A: Whatever that means, quote unquote, we did it without cheating and remaining faithful. Yeah. And remaining in love. Yeah. I don't think there's a day I didn't think I'm obsessively in love with him, which I still am, but yeah, this has been a whole new. Exploration of learning. Who am I? What am I? What is this?

Fer: Yeah, what a gift. Yeah. Well, it's really interesting. Also, we started off talking about also being okay with the differences between your, your desires and your feelings. And it sounds, it sounds like you. Don't have as much jealousy, but also you haven't really been tested. I haven't been tested, so I'm, I'd be really curious, but, well, it sounds [00:44:00] like at the very least, like when you see Jay having sex with other women, you don't feel the same way.

Fer: Jay feels like when he sees you having sex. That's not my

A: threat.

Fer: My

A: threat is not physical desire him desiring somebody else physically because. You know, we have a great sex life and I, Jay has always desired me, so I'm not, we're not coming from a dead bedroom. We're not coming from a situation where there's anything lacking in our, in the times that we are together in our love making.

A: It's very satisfying and fulfilling. But I also, in the same way, you were talking about being a bit too straightforward or assertive about your desires and wants, uh, I'm that way and my insecurity would be that he would meet someone softer, gentler, more willing to just like put his head and her bosom and like cradle him while he's crying.

A: And, um, I'm not, I'm not that girl. And that's where my insecurity, I think is gonna be at [00:45:00] peak.

Fer: Fear.

A: Um, and also somebody smarter than me. Like, yeah, like I'm not very good at math and, and Jay's an engineer and so he does meet women who are also engineers. And I'm like, like, I don't know how to do that. And Jake gets frustrated with me where he thinks something is logical and makes sense, and I'm like, no, it doesn't make sense to me.

A: I'm seeing it this way. And he's like. So I think he's gonna meet someone more logical than me. He's gonna meet someone that's more analytical than I am and he's gonna meet someone, it's all made up stuff in my head, and he's going to meet someone that's like a mother earth and like in a flowing gown with a flower headdress and holding, holding him in her bosom.

A: And that can't be me. Um,

J: so that shows like more than anything, her insecurities. Yeah. And so she has to. Like confront those and deal with that and that That's this whole thing about how it shines a light on all aspects of your life where monogamy is kind of easy. Yeah. There's things that you don't have to like deal with.

J: It is, [00:46:00] it's easy.

Fer: Yeah. Yeah. There's people who say, oh, there's issues in monogamous relationships. There's issues in non monogamous relationships. I'm like, bullshit. Yes. Yes. There are issues in relationships, but. Po polyamory, non-monogamy. Definitely. It is. Not that it has more issues per se, but it's definitely more work.

Fer: It's definitely you have to talk about

J: it. It, it's, uh, it's, it's more uncontrolled exposure. Yeah. Like with monogamy, I think you can come at it. Yeah. There are issues, but you can like. Deal with it or not Deal with it. Yeah. Like no girl,

A: no female secretary or whatever. Not going out with coworkers when you're on a trip on, like, you can make all these things that, like if someone saw you, if someone saw you with a woman at dinner Yeah.

A: Um, they would be like, oh my God. Look at him. Like, yeah. All of society is pushing us to have a certain way of thinking, monogamously thinking. And when you're supported by society, it's very empowering. It is everywhere you look people, people clap [00:47:00] when we tell people like, oh, we've married 25 years. Oh my God, that's so amazing.

A: It does. They don't ask us a quality of our connection. They're just like, oh, you've been married 25 years. Like, that's amazing. Congratulations. They're not asking us if we've had a good marriage like. None of that matters. All that they're celebrating is that two people are saying that they've been married for X amount of years.

A: Yeah, and And that's enough.

Fer: Yeah. You know what's interesting too? I was reflecting on it because one of the most popular episodes from my podcast. The title is opening up after two decades together. I wasn't thinking like your episode should be opening up after three decades. Three decades, but um, I think people were drawn to that 'cause there are a lot of couples who have been together a long time and actually have a really good relationship and they opened up the marriage.

Fer: Not from a place of wanting to fix it necessarily, but yes. From a place of like wanting to continue to stay together. Yeah. [00:48:00] While continuing to evolve as people. So I think in a way non-monogamy helps couples stay together. Yeah. Yeah. Often, not always. It sometimes breaks couples, but in those cases, I think there's a lot of couples like you that open up late and then all of a sudden.

Fer: I feel more connected. More connected, none less and, and have a better relationship because of non-monogamy and, and, and can be together forever because of non-monogamy. You know, when you have a mismatched

A: libido. I really don't know. That's a perfect example of having to open up really to stay married.

A: Like I needed more sex. He needed the amount of sex that we were having, which would be perfectly normal for most, most people. But now I was like in Hyperdrive. Yeah. And he's seeing that. The someone he loves has these urges and needs that are too big for him alone to manage at this time. Yeah. And so I think this was like, I think we had to,

Fer: yeah.

Fer: I mean, I

A: [00:49:00] don't, I don't, I can't imagine we wouldn't be together, but I wonder if it would've been marriage in the way we had always been married, because my hormonal desires are so. Counter intuitive to me at this age and make no sense to me.

J: Yeah. Yeah. And I, I want you to be happy.

A: Yeah.

J: Like that, that's the number one thing.

J: I mean, my relationship with her, our relationship is the number one priority for me, and I don't want to stifle her. Mm-hmm. And so, yeah, I, I don't know where this is going to go. This is continuing to unfold. Who knows where it's going to go, but that's why. Uh, you know, for me, uh, having to like say, okay, let's have this open relationship.

J: I had to like deal with all this like religious baggage that kind of was in the way to ultimately going, okay, I want her to be happy. That's [00:50:00] my prime motivation and that is what? Is driving me to like, work through this as well. Mm-hmm. And that is why I want to do this too. So, um, it's 'cause I love her.

Fer: Yeah.

J: And so, uh. But I didn't expect it.

Fer: Yeah.

J: I didn't expect all this stuff I needed to do. Yeah.

Fer: It took a while to, to realize what you needed to do to love her better and you know, but it sounds like you are doing great and thank you so much for sharing your journey. Last question, uh, what will you tell to a poly curious person?

Fer: Good question. So someone who might be new to this journey, maybe even yourself a couple of years ago, what advice would you give them?

J: Mm. Um. Go at your own pace.

Fer: I like that.

J: Be kind and gentle with yourself and expect the unexpected.

Fer: Mm-hmm.

J: And just, I think it takes a lot of review and [00:51:00] reflection, uh, because it's easy to kind of have false motives if you're not willing to really look at yourself.

J: And that's, it's gonna just, you can't avoid yourself. And in this whole thing, you're gonna get in your own way and that's okay. Uh, but understand that, uh, and there's no like set playbook or rule book. I was asking a bunch of people, how are you doing it? 'cause maybe I can find someone, some, because there's no, there's no books, movies, anything, references to go by.

J: I think the podcast is really. One of the few things we haven't read them.

A: You're starting to read them now. I'm starting to read some books. There's a lot of books.

J: Okay.

A: Not movies, but books and podcasts.

J: Yeah. And so I think podcasts are the easiest to like, uh, grasp, be open to however it unfolds for you and your partner, or if you have multiple partners.

J: Uh, and it's gonna be different [00:52:00] for everyone. But this is, I think, just. Part of living and living a full life, your true, authentic life, it's gonna bring up a lot of stuff, good and bad, or not bad or good, but like exciting and things that, you know, are difficult to, to confront.

Fer: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Beautiful. And it's, um.

Fer: It's quite a journey, but it does help you grow a lot, a lot. Which, um, I try to remind myself when I'm like, Ugh, it's a lot of work. I'm like, okay, but I'm becoming a better version of myself, you know?

A: Um, yeah. And with that kind of going along with what you just said, is you're gonna meet new versions of yourself because the person you are with, your partner, like the person I am with Jay.

A: I, that person isn't always showing up in my connections with other people. So being able to meet that person, that person that's with different people that have had different life experiences, that I [00:53:00] get to have new stimulus and new reactions, who is that version of me? And then bringing that per person back into my marriage, um, has been really fulfilling and.

A: It's almost like getting a second life and how awesome is that?

Fer: Yeah. Beautiful. We wrap up.

J: No, thank you for having us. Yeah.

Fer: Thank you for having us. I'm

J: really, uh, grateful and appreciative that you do this. Oh,

Fer: thank you. 'cause

J: we've learned a lot and it's helped us on our journey. Yeah,

Fer: thank you. I'm sure people are going to learn a lot from this one in particular, so thank you for also providing that.

Fer: Um. Wisdom and opening up yourselves to today so other people can learn from your experiences. Yeah, we've learned a

A: lot. I mean, to every single couple that's been in this spot with you, like I have so much gratitude and for you of course for we've learned so much. Like I really am hopeful that people can learn from us.

A: [00:54:00] Yeah.