Episode 67

Jesse: Things that undo monogamous relationships are things that you just confront in poly. So yes, it's harder to navigate these things 'cause you're doing all the things on like the hardest difficulty, but like that will just expose if a relationship's right for you or not.

Jesse: It's worth doing for a period of time just to have that experience and know what that's like and get better for when if you do wanna reenter monogamy, you're going to be a better partner because you had these experiences that Poly forced you to have.

Fer: Hi everyone. I am Fer, relationship coach and host of this podcast, and today I am talking to my friend Jesse. We had this conversation in my time in Mexico City, where I'm from and where he is currently based after [00:02:00] being nomadic for a while. And a few weeks ago, in one of his travels, he actually stopped in Denver.

Fer: We had a conversation about how often the people that we have the most fiery and fun connections with are not necessarily the best people to have as life partners or even just as partners in general. If they're not stable, if they don't respect your boundaries, if there's a lot of conflict in your relationship, I think it's important to think about those things.

Fer: It's important to be mindful of the people that you engage with. Connection is not enough to make a functional relationship. I also found this conversation very interesting because we talk about something that I don't think I had covered before on Poly Curious, which is the effect that [00:03:00] dating in community can have on.

Fer: Your reputation on how you be yourself, on how the community sees you. And when I say community, I mean in this case, I guess the Burning Man community, but it can also be the non-monogamous community. And I think what tends to happen is that if relationships end in a bad way, that can cause people to gossip about one another.

Fer: And you can create a lot of damage, not just in the relationship that just ended, but also in the whole community. And this happened to Jesse, and I don't think it necessarily was because he did something terribly wrong, but I think for him, it wasn't just about the effect that it had on community. Those relationships also had an effect on how he viewed himself.

Fer: And I think that that's something that we can all relate to, right. We might have had a relationship where our partner characterized [00:04:00] us in a way and we carry that, or maybe we were actually that way. Not in Jesse's case I think, but maybe we were actually what those people say we were. But maybe we've changed and sometimes it's really hard to get away from those boxes that we ourselves have often put ourselves into because of what other people have said about us.

Fer: I have a friend, for example, who even months after she had broken up with her partner would still have doubts of whether she was actually. Selfish and self-centered because she had been with a partner that kept telling her that she was all those things when she's not at all. So I think this is also a story of learning to let go of what your partners thought of you learning to let go of your past, and really tuning into yourself and knowing who you are and knowing that not because you did something, [00:05:00] let's say selfish.

Fer: You're a selfish person, or because you lied, you're a liar, your past doesn't define you. It often takes a lot of courage and a lot of time to let go of past toxic relationships where things happened or you form a certain identity that might not be who you are today. So I really like how Jesse has been able also through having healthy relationships with more stable people to realize that he's not necessarily the person that his previous relationships told him he was.

Fer: So a lot of food for Todd in this conversation. And there's even more on my patron if you want to hear about Jesse's experience in an MFM threesome. That's male, female males. So an experience where he was basically a unicorn. I think that we don't have that many examples of people talking about what [00:06:00] this looks like in practice or what this can look like in practice, and we had a lot of fun talking about that.

Fer: On Patron. You'll also find a little bit more detail on Jesse's latest partnership and how healthy and healing it was. After everything he's been through, they were also open and things went a lot better than what you're about to hear, and yet that relationship dissolved for other reasons. So if you want to hear more about his experience with Dad, if you want to hear about his MFMT threesome and you want access to more bonus content, as well as a lot of solo episodes where I talk about my personal experiences, where I share tips for all sorts of topics related to non-monogamy and where I drop the recordings from our monthly meetups, please go and check out my Patreon.

Fer: You can find the link in the show notes. Okay, let's get into it. Here's my [00:07:00] interview with Jesse.

Fer: Jesse, welcome to Polycurious. Excited to have you. And it's fun to also do an interview in Mexico City. 

Jesse: Uh, yeah, I've been looking forward to this since you brought it up. I don't even know how long ago. 

Fer: Uh, yeah, I think it was because you happened to stop by Denver. Just for context, for the listeners, you had dated Mariah for a little bit, and she would like, tell me about how you handle the situation with her and with having other people that you were seeing and being very clear in communicating that.

Fer: And I feel like a lot of men have a hard time with that. They have it baked in their brain that if they're dating more than one woman, then they're doing something wrong or something, and then they have a really hard time to communicate, even though they say they're not monogamous to communicate what's going on when it comes to.

Fer: Their intentions with the women that are, they're dating when it comes to new connections that they might be making. So for me, poly curious [00:08:00] is many things, but one of them is empowering women and with that also comes empowering men to be better in their relationships with other women and have men that are examples of that.

Fer: So yeah, that's why I wanted to talk to you. I guess just so listeners know, like at this point you don't have a partnership. You are still somewhat, I guess somewhat non monogamous in that you have connections with different people and you communicate about those. But where did it all start? Like tell us a little bit about your background and how you found out about non-monogamy.

Jesse: I guess going back really since high school, I've been pretty much single. Like I've never really been in very many like long-term relationships, so I've kind of navigated. My romance through the lens of someone who's been mostly single. There's been moments where I've dated people periodically, but for the most part have been like dating Monogamously.

Jesse: My first introduction to [00:09:00] Poly Dynamics was when I first joined a Burning Man camp back in, I believe, 2017, maybe it was 2018. There was a significant portion of people in the camp that were non-monogamous. That was my first burn. Two of the people in the camp were kinda like the matriarch and patriarch of the, the community.

Jesse: They were like doing poly at least outwardly or like what it appeared like to me in like the best possible way. And I just remember being blown away by how. Well, they navigated that and modeled that behavior for everyone else. And so that was my first introduction to polyamory. 

Fer: How old were you at that point?

Jesse: I guess that was seven years ago. So it was 25. 

Fer: 25. And you said at that point, or even up to this point, you hadn't, you haven't had really like long-term relationships. Like how long has your longest relationship been 

Jesse: at that [00:10:00] point? I think my longest relationship had been maybe like six months. And still even to this day, I think the longest relationship I've been in is like almost two years.

Jesse: Okay. But like relative to most people who have been in like a long-term committed relationship, that feels like pretty, like a short blip, you know? Yeah. 

Fer: And why do you think that is? 

Jesse: I think at least presently, my lifestyle, I've been like a nomad for the last six, outta the last eight years, and I think it's pretty hard to establish a relationship.

Jesse: When you're constantly changing environments and the time that you get to drop in with your partner is somewhat sporadic. I also think there's been very few people that I actually have met now in retrospect that probably possess the qualities of a life partner, like someone that I really would want to invest in like a long-term relationship with.

Jesse: There's been a lot of times where I've mistaken, like [00:11:00] enamored connections, like really like hot and heavy new things and or like an maybe a physical attraction that I'm willing to overlook, maybe red flags or incompatibilities. And I think I've entered into a lot of short term relationships, hoping that they would turn into longer term relationships with people that maybe weren't the best fit.

Jesse: And so I think I've hit a lot of like dead end relationships where I've like started something that maybe wasn't the right thing to put my time and energy into. And even though I had like a lot of these relationships haven't matured into a long-term relationship, I still really cherish like the experience of being in them and what I learned from them.

Jesse: I think when I come across a relationship that, you know, is a good fit, I'll be much, you know, all these other relationships are like practice to get to that point of being like the a ready, ready for a serious relationship when the time comes. So, 

Fer: yeah, I mean I think it definitely makes sense if you are just traveling around and if [00:12:00] you have that tendency, which I think we, uh, we all have of, you know, falling hard for people quickly and then sometimes those people are not.

Fer: The right people. It makes sense that it might be hard for you to like have something more, uh, long term with someone. And I remember that's one of the things we were talking about in Denver, that sometimes the people that you have those like really like explosive, amazing connections with, are not the best life partners, you know?

Fer: And, and I, I mean that's been my experience too with, with Seth. I mean, we had an amazing connection from the beginning, but it never had quite the intensity that other relationships have had. But then with that intensity, like when the highs are really high, the lows are really low and  mm-hmm. You know, and 

Fer: then that intensity doesn't, is not often indicative of life partner potential.

Fer: And that's why I am like so grateful that I'm non-monogamous. 'cause then I'm able to have those like fiery connections that don't need to become [00:13:00] life partners, you know? Mm-hmm. So how did you go from Burning Man or knowing that non-monogamy was a thing to actually experiencing it yourself? 

Jesse: Well, around the time that I was first going to Burning Man and thereafter I was, you know, a digital nomad working in the festival industry.

Jesse: So I was on the road a bunch and that lifestyle was amazing, but I definitely felt like there were trade offs, um, to it. And I felt like there were things in my life that I wasn't able to try. And this perfect opportunity came up to become roommates in Portland with two of the members of my Burning Man camp.

Jesse: Um, so I took that opportunity and moved to Portland. It's the only place that I've really lived as an adult, like in a stable way. Put down roots in the community and in the location where like the Poly Q was the strongest. You know, like this is just where it was [00:14:00] like ground zero for polyamory. At least in my let lived experience was in that place.

Jesse: And when I got there pretty shortly after arriving, I'd say like maybe a month into being settled in Portland, I started dating a woman who was in my Burning Man camp. Eventually we were like, all right, like what do we want this to be? And she actually proposed that we enter into like a relationship that was defined by like relationship anarchy, which we defined at the time as not valuing your romantic relationships over those of your platonic friendships or other sorts of relationships in your life.

Jesse: 'cause there is kind of a tendency in. Dating, generally monogamous or polyamorous dating to put a lot of weight into these new romantic relationships at the expense sometimes of your [00:15:00] other preexisting personal relationships, platonic relationships with friends, and I think because we were dating within a community context, we really wanted to guard that and make sure that this just 'cause we were dating that.

Jesse: We weren't gonna like suddenly like stop hanging out with our friends as much or prioritizing the romantic relationship over that of the other relationships in our lives. And I, you know, totally subscribed to that. I was like, yeah, that sounds good. I don't think I understood at the time how difficult that could be given, just like the, the natural tendency for people to gravitate towards spending more time with their romantic partner.

Jesse: So we started off in a relationship anarchy context. So we were like open to seeing other people, but there weren't really other people we were seeing at the start. And this relationship started over the winter. That's like a time of year where there's not as much travel to events and it was just a little bit more laid back.

Jesse: So we got to be very close and, and spend a lot of quality time together from the outset. But then as [00:16:00] events started picking back up again, my availability and my willingness to spend time. Remotely FaceTiming or calling when I was away working a festival or another project was limited. And I think maybe the expectations that had been set by the time we had spent together in the winter wasn't sustained.

Jesse: So I think that partner would've characterized that I like, love bombed at the beginning, or that I like perfected very quickly and then didn't, didn't put in the work to sustain that afterwards when I like started traveling again. Um, and I think there was just some general incompatibilities with my willingness or ability to like sustain a distance relationship.

Jesse: When I'm working on an event where I'm doing 12, 16 hour shifts in a day, it's like I don't wanna call my partner at the end of that. You know, I just want to be present in the moment. And that wasn't. I think what they had expected. And so that relationship was a little shaky. [00:17:00] This is maybe in like April of that year, so shortly like maybe we were five months into the relationship, four months into the relationship at that point, around that time is when I met my longer term partner that I had while I was in Portland.

Jesse: You know, that was my opportunity or my first attempt at trying to have the conversation, the check-in around new partners. Right? And to my credit, I do feel like I navigated that pretty well. Like I didn't proceed with doing anything until I had a check-in with my primary partner at the time, and also brought it up with the new person I had just started dating.

Jesse: Like on the second date I mentioned, Hey, like I want you to know that I'm in a, you know, poly. Relationship anarchy dynamic and, um, is that okay? And she said it was fine. And so it felt like everything was off to a good start. And I, I think just the issues of sustaining a relationship while I was on the road at these festivals for weeks at a time [00:18:00] paired with dating someone new in that and managing that new relationship energy and still tending to my initial relationship like that led to the dissolution of the relationship anarchy.

Jesse: So I don't, even though like the one attempt I had at Poly, like there was maybe a month or two where I was dating one person and dating a new person at the time, that actually didn't go badly. Like I felt like the communication was there. Um, but I do feel like. I don't think I did a good enough job tending to my initial relationship and kinda let the new relationship energy and like the desire to spend time with this new person who I was excited about when I was back at the expense of the relationship that was on the decline.

Jesse: Like that wasn't. 

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Jesse: We stay true to ourselves, stay true to our friends, no matter the call 

Jesse: You know, like I could have managed that better, 

Fer: right? Your initial relationship was like, Hey, you're not spending enough time with me.

Fer: And you're like, oh, it's because I'm [00:20:00] traveling. You know, we'll spend time when I get back. But then you got back and you're like, actually I want to spend time with this new person that, that I met. You know, 

Jesse: it wasn't exactly like that, but it would be like, I wanna spend time with you one night and I wanna spend a night with this person.

Jesse: But the expectation was. Spend two nights with me or you know, whatever. And like that just wasn't tenable. And also too, I do feel like this is, getting back to that, how relationship anarchy didn't feel like it was being upheld in this relationship. Like it felt like the expectation of the amount of time that I was expected to spend with this person or like to go out of my way to call them when I was at a festival was not consistent with what I had defined or what my understanding of the definition of relationship anarchy was.

Jesse: Like I wouldn't do that with a friend. I wouldn't like call a friend to check in weekly when I'm away or when I'm back. I might spend one night or one time with like an important relationship like platonic or [00:21:00] romantic, but I wouldn't do that like twice and right. So like that's where we had agreed to this definition of relationship anarchy.

Jesse: That I felt like in practice wasn't what the actual expectation was, but it just felt like, yeah, I wasn't able to give that initial relationship the amount of energy that it needed to make that person feel valued and cherished. And so it led to a really bad breakup that also I could have managed better in some ways.

Jesse: But 

Fer: in what 

Jesse: ways? I think the, the main thing that I didn't do well in that breakup was trying to ease our way, like progressively into like a, or like downshift into maybe more casual romantic relationship and then into friendship. Like I think that, like that led to more hurt on the part of my initial partner of like just feeling like I was stringing her along.

Jesse: I think that's like putting it in her own words like that [00:22:00] I was like, kind of like not treating her with like, and that relationship with enough respect to like just. Call it what it was and, and break up and like kind of have some separation and distance. We broke up and then we hung out like once or twice after, like went out, went to the Ren fair together and went and had dinner and it felt like it was going kind of well, but I could tell that she was still uneasy with that and I didn't really call that out.

Jesse: I kind of like, you know, it was like working for me to kind of downshift and like, you know, still 

Fer: Yeah. You weren't as emotionally attached as she was. Seems like, 

Jesse: potentially, yeah. And also too, like, just like, I don't think, I think I was more comfortable with being in a platonic relationship than she was with like, feeling like, oh, we had gotten really, you know, close and now it's, it's shifting underneath us.

Jesse: Right? Yeah. That's what she would say, uh, about how that kind of played out and that I was like being narcissistic around, [00:23:00] like prioritizing my needs over hers and. I don't necessarily agree with the like that narcissistic label, but I do feel like I could have done a better job of being mindful of her feelings as I was downshifting one relationship and letting the NRE of another relationship really, you know, soar.

Fer: Yeah. I'm thinking of two things as you're talking about this. One is I don't believe in like downsizing a relationship or decoupling or however people wanna call it. Like, I mean, I do believe in relationships changing, but even if you want to transition into a different type of relating, I think that you need a break.

Fer: Like I think that you need like a clear like breakup and then maybe like months later or years later or whatever, then you can like reconnect. 

Jesse: Some important context there too is that for both of us, this was our first like serious relationship. And we were trying it out as like relationship anarchy. So like two new people to dating generally.

Jesse: Yeah. And you were [00:24:00] trying the hardest form you were in your 

Fer: twenties, which, um, I mean, I know that you're only, I think 32. You just turned 32. But like, I like always joke that like men in their twenties are just like, not men yet, you know, like they're just like adolescents. So like I can imagine that, you know, you were doing the best that, that you could at the time.

Fer: But I think the other lesson in there that, that's something that I've had to learn too, is sometimes even if it works for you and even if the other person tells you that it works for them, if you see that it doesn't work for them, sometimes you kind of have to make the decision for them. And this is like a very complex thing because I mean, in theory I believe that everyone's responsible of their own feelings and decisions.

Fer: And if someone's telling you I'm okay with this, then you need to trust them. But I've also been in situations where. They're like, yeah, I'm cool with you having a boyfriend or a primary partner or, or, yeah, I'm cool with being friends [00:25:00] and you know, and I'm like truly just being like, I really just see you as friends.

Fer: And then I see that they have like romantic feelings and attachments and stuff. And before I'd be like, well, that's their issue. You know, I've told them what I am able to provide and like, I don't need to like worry about that. As long as they say that they're fine with it. And I had a relationship where I was like, I, I realized like, okay, no, I need to break up with him and I cannot even tell him that I'm breaking up with him because.

Fer: He's too much into me. But that's basically, I mean, and it is not like I lied. I had other reasons to break up with him, but, but I was like, oh man. I guess sometimes you do have to kind of like make the decision for the other person if you see that it's not serving them. And I think that that's something that we don't talk about enough, but mm-hmm.

Fer: You know, in that situation you were like, well, it works for me. She says it works for her, but you could see that it wasn't working for her and you were like, you didn't end up making the, the decision on her behalf. 

Jesse: Yeah. I also think she was [00:26:00] communicative that it wasn't working for her either. I remember on the like first platonic hangout post breakup where we went to the Refa and had dinner later, or like towards the end of the dinner, we both, she, she mentioned that, hey, it would be helpful for us to like make, manage this transition into platonic.

Jesse: Relating by maybe potentially having a relationship counselor like guide us through this. And then that felt like a lot for me for like a five month relationship. But I had, I remember being receptive to it, maybe a little bit resistant of like, does this really feel like that's necessary? But, uh, I remember relenting and being like, yeah, like, let's consider this when I get back from this, like next work trip that I'm on.

Jesse: Like, you know, like I, I'm about to leave again. Like I don't, you know, have the time to really navigate that right now. But like, let's pin that. And then I left to work this festival in another state, [00:27:00] and while I was at that festival, she kind of like abandoned that. Completely. And I think she did her own like research and like listened to podcasts and kind of maybe self therapized and like decided then that how she was going to define or revise what our relationship had been.

Jesse: And just, just like decided to accuse me of being a narcissistic abuser, creating like a huge referendum within our community. She was trying to convince everyone in the community that that was how I was. Yeah. I was like, at this festival, kind of like not really in a place to be able to, uh, have those conversations.

Jesse: And she meanwhile was like campaigning with several different key members of that Burning Man camp community to like have me excommunicated. And you know, I think many of the people in the group, some of them relationship counselors, many like, you know, emotionally attuned men and women in [00:28:00] the community, they heard that out and kind of made their own judgment that like, hey, Jesse might have not have done everything to the best of his ability, but like, I think that's a far cry from being a narcissistic abuser.

Fer: Oh, so they stood up for you? 

Jesse: Yeah. I mean, pretty much everyone, like the matriarch and patriarch of this community, I mean, several other people, key members pretty much were like, I, you know, I don't think that that's, you know, how Jesse is, you know, I, I can understand maybe he didn't, he mistepped in some of like the ways in which you guys broke up or handled the relationship, but like, that's, that's just not, he's not a narcissist or whatever.

Jesse: And I felt very like, backed by the people in my community and seen for like, that I, that I wasn't like this malicious person that was like disregarding how my ex was feeling. But it created nonetheless like a huge issue and rupture in our community that is still kind of an open wound there. So that was just like a really challenging thing to deal with.

Jesse: [00:29:00] And also while I was at that event, not only was she campaigning with people in the community, she also reached out to my new partner who she had no real relationship with, to basically advise them against dating me. And when I got back, I brought that up with my new partner that, not that I didn't know that she had reached out yet, but I brought up what had just happened while I was away like that, that this whole like my like world in this community was like collapsing around me because of how my ex was interpreting our breakup and.

Jesse: Like, she was like, I'm really glad you brought this up, because if you hadn't, I would've been probably more like given more credibility to what she was saying. But the fact that you're being transparent with me and like telling me about it and engaging in a conversation is reassuring. But nonetheless, like that seed was planted with that new relationship that like, that was like a big wound that much.

Jesse: Later on in my later break, like a year and a [00:30:00] half later in my breakup with my now new partner at the time, it ended up being weaponized against me in that same context, that wound from that initial relationship, like carried for like the duration of the time that I was in Portland and created a lot of problems for people in my community, for myself, you know, for my ex, for my, you know, my, my current partner at the time.

Jesse: Like, it just was like basically this thing that like never kind of went away. 

Fer: Yeah. Yeah. I'm sorry to hear that. But it's great to hear that like, people stood up for you, but I think that it becomes tricky when the couple dynamics are, like within a larger community, and like, I know even in nas, the community I'm part of mm-hmm.

Fer: In New York, like people have been, like consciously excluded. 'cause you know, they've done things. And I think it's great that you know that there are standards and that there's like, we're strict about that because we're also very open. I, I wouldn't say [00:31:00] like poly necessarily, but you know, monogamish.

Mm-hmm. Like 

Fer: community, sexy community or central community, whatever. So, so it's important that women feel safe and that's one of the things that. A lot of people comment when, and, and I feel it myself when like they enter like, wow, like I feel so safe. And, and it's like really wonderful to, for women to have a, a place where they, they can be sexy without feeling like this means that there'll be these predators around that will try to, and, and in other settings that's how it feels.

Fer: But anyhow, like it's good that that happens, but also I've seen. How, you know, talking for example, with some people who have been, you know, excluded from the community because the woman had a version of the story. And then I hear the other version and I'm like, well, it was more complicated than that.

Fer: Right? And, and as much as, you know, I'm a feminist and, and Me Too is real, and all of those things, I also think that sometimes that makes it very easy for women to stand up and be like, he's a narcissist, [00:32:00] he's an abuser. And for everyone to be like, okay, bye. You know, like, you're out of the community. So I'm glad that that wasn't the case for you.

Jesse: Yeah. To be honest, I'm pretty surprised that it wasn't, it didn't happen that way for me. 'cause like yeah, 'cause 

Fer: you don't give up those vibes, that's why. 

Jesse: Well, sure. But like, there's definitely something that is brought up a lot in the whole Me too thing of like. PE men who are accused, oh, they don't seem that way.

Jesse: And it's kind of one of the ways in which like women's, like accusations are dismissed. And so, you know, I was very aware of that as this was all happening. I definitely felt a little like, powerless and, and like decidedly so that I wasn't going to make a public post or wasn't going to go around. You know, people brought it up with me.

Jesse: I knew everyone in the community had heard about it. And it was this thing that like, was like a little awkward for me. 'cause it was like I'd hang out with these people after this initial rupture and I like, knew that they knew about this, but like, what did they think of me? You know? And I, it [00:33:00] wasn't something that I, because I believed my truth, right?

Jesse: Like, I wasn't gonna go out there and have to like, you know, I felt like that was also in a way like me putting forth what my truth was about the experience would come at the expense or feel like I was. Invalidating her experience, which I definitely wanted her to like be able, you know, like I, regardless of whether I agree with her interpretation of things, like her emotional hurt was real and like I just felt like let her be able to occupy the social space with that.

Jesse: And if people ask me about it, I would give my like account of the story, but I wasn't like this thing that I felt like I needed to like go out, go on the offensive and like try to like, you know, really change the narrative. But it did have the effect of, while I wasn't ever explicitly excluded and I did have people rally around me, there was a more chilling, non-direct consequence of like, I self excluded from [00:34:00] community events because either she would be at that space and I wanted to like allow there to be space for her to be at that thing.

Jesse: That's actually how I ended up leaving my Burning Man camp and joining the one that I'm currently in is 'cause we were both gonna go to the burn and like everyone was like seemingly okay with that. And I was like, this is insane. Like, and I had the ability to join a different camp, so I like left. And you know, since then I feel like there's been moments where it's like I won't go to big community gatherings because I just like haven't had the opportunity to give my side of the story to many of the people so all they know is her side of the story.

Jesse: I feel judged in those spaces or I just don't know what people think about me and it makes me not want to be in those spaces. 

Fer: Yeah, I think that, you know, once the cat is out of the bag, even if you clarify or whatever, like there's still going to be like a layer of like, oh, maybe I should be a little bit careful with Jesse because even though you know, I'm sure that the other partner was a little biased.[00:35:00] 

Fer: There were reasons, right? But I think it's important to give people opportunities. If men make one mistake and then they're like shone from the community and not given the opportunity to learn from that and act differently, yes, they will learn, but then they will carry shame from it. Like, like you did, even though you weren't even officially excluded, you know?

Fer: Anyhow. But So this new relationship that mm-hmm. That you started as you were breaking up with this other person, was it open? Like what, what was it? The dynamic there, and that was, as you said, your longest relationship, right? 

Jesse: Yeah. That relationship started off in a poly dynamic. Like she wasn't dating anyone else, but I was, and like, so we were navigating that at the start of the relationship.

Jesse: But then once I ended things with my ex and I was really only invested in this one new relationship. We had still decided to be open and had actually had an experience when I was [00:36:00] visiting New York, I think on the heels of camp, 

Fer: which is a festival for people who might not know. 

Jesse: Yeah. Calling all magical people.

Jesse: Shout out, come volunteer for me. Um, but yeah, when I was out there, we both actually at the same time, had like a hookup experience with other people that we communicated about and actually navigated really well. Like I hooked up with someone and I kind of told her ahead of time that like there was this person I was interested in seeing and we ended up meeting up when I, we were there, had protected sex and then, you know, she had connected with someone she met at a party and we both kind of like confessed this to each other in like.

Jesse: One, you know, or whatever, had a check in or 

Fer: At camp? 

Jesse: Not at camp before. I, I, it was after camp. I was in New York after, but it was like on the heels of that event. I see. I was out out there. 'cause that's kind of how I moved through the world. I was like there for an event, stuck around a little bit to hang out with friends and community.

Jesse: Hooked up with [00:37:00] someone, checked in about it. When we got back, she had hooked up with someone. We were both like, cool. That wasn't a rupture thing for this relationship. We just managed that really well. Um, and so we were like ostensibly open, like, I mean, we had vocally said that we were open and navigated that experience together and the relationship was going really strong, you know, for the first six months, you know, new relationship, energy, like honeymoon phase, all of that stuff.

Jesse: And then there started to be challenges around communication between us. And she had been unemployed for the entire time and was also a sex worker. So there was some like difficult dynamics there to navigate, but like overall felt like we were handling those pretty well. But there was a moment we had been dating for almost a year at this point where we had both were flying back from Envision Festival in Costa Rica and I got sick with the Woo flu and I was incredibly overworked at that time.

Jesse: Like I had a huge client 

Fer: just so people know because they didn't know what the [00:38:00] workflow is, but it's what I have, hence my raspy voice. But yeah, after a festival. 

Jesse: Yeah. Post festival sickness. 

Fer: Yeah. Yeah. Anyhow, continue. 

Jesse: So we were coming back from that trip and I was sick and was like inundated in work at the time.

Jesse: I had a full-time job in tech and was running my own business, like secretly running festivals, um, and huge volunteer programs at them while still like pretending to do my full-time job. And I was just like very stressed from juggling those things. Sick. Coming back from traveling, ending my PTO, having to get back to work.

Jesse: And I get back to the house and I had like, it was something super innocuous. Like I was super sick. I was, we were both gonna go to bed. I was like, Hey, can you set the alarm? She's like, yeah, I got it. We would go to bed and she like, did not set the alarm and I slept for like 18 hours or something. Like ridiculous.

Jesse: Like I missed my entire next day of work and I had so much shit to do. [00:39:00] And when I woke up I was like super, like thrown off by that. And she's like, oh, I guess you really needed the rest. And I was like, you know, she being unemployed, not having really like, you know, sex work is work. So she was doing work but like working like five hours a month, you know, kind of thing.

Jesse: Like, something like just insane relative to like the 60 hours a week I was doing. And I was like, I, I, I can't remember exactly what I said, but I said something that was like incredibly hurtful to her about. Some of us have like real jobs that we need to like do things for, and I just, it was like such a regrettable moment, but like totally seeded this wound in our relationship around her work, or lack thereof and my, you know, value judgment around that, you know, and that was like a wound that I felt like kept coming up later on in our relationship.

Jesse: It was kinda like the beginning of like the rupture in that relationship. And then two months later was at another festival that I was working and [00:40:00] one of my coworkers came up to me at this event and I was wearing, I was wearing a onesie that was like, kind of like the Dixie Cup, like, like thing. It was like a, A man romper, if you will, like this kind of like, just like funny looking outfit.

Jesse: But it like looked like a water cup. And she came up to me and was like, I wanna drink you like a cup of water. And I was like, wow, man, that is a lot for me to take. You know, I'm in this relationship. Like, let me check in with my partner before we do anything. So a day passes, like, you know, nothing even happens that night.

Jesse: The next day I'm talking to my partner and then like towards the end of the conversation I ask her like, Hey, like, just wanted to check in about where we're still at, like, you know, whether we're open or not. You know, like just confirming before I go into this, you know, potential connection and just the.

Jesse: Proposition of this possibility set her off like she was [00:41:00] irate and I think partially because she hadn't, you know, been in this wounded state from that comment and just su like succeeding arguments that had happened after that that like our relationship wasn't in a good enough spot for me to even bring that up.

Jesse: Also, in a week we were going to move in together. So like hindsight, you know, probably was thinking too shortsighted. Even though I do feel like I was entitled to be able to have that check-in and ask, 'cause I would've, you know, if she had had like a, hey, I don't really feel like that would be comfortable with that, like a more measured response, I wouldn't have done it.

Jesse: But she like blew up, broke up with me on the phone, you know, and we're about to literally have a lease signed together. We're about to move in together in a whole week. And long story short, I ended up letting her drink me like a cup of water at this festival, uh, because hey, I was single now, which was like also a dumb thing to do.

Jesse: Uh, but get back to Portland. We do the relationship repair, but it kind of like ruins [00:42:00] our anniversary slash moving in together. That happened in the next month. Like it was just like overshadowed all of that. So like at this point, like honeymoon phase is over, it's like we're in like relationship survival mode and like, you know, it kind of pointed out this thing around openness or like open relationships that you like really need to be clear on like when you can bring stuff up.

Jesse: Like, you know, probably don't bring it up when you're in a moment where you're actually seeking something specific. It should always be in the abstract around like, hey, like how would you feel in this situation if, you know, I was to meet someone? You know, like kind of like define all of those nuances, but not when it's tied to a specific thing that could be like hurtful in that moment or if you're like.

Jesse: Have distance between you and you can't like really? 

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Jesse: Be close. So there was a lot of lessons there around it. 

Fer: Yeah, I feel that, I think that one of the things that I'm learning, not just in non-monogamy but in general is to have like be a little bit more sensitive about like [00:44:00] putting yourself in the other person's shoes.

Fer: Right. And I, I don't think you did anything wrong with asking, even though maybe you hadn't really talked about it in a while, but you had like kind of like thought about the fact that you hadn't been open in a very long time. You hadn't even like thought about that, that you know, you were in a rocky spot that you were about to move in together.

Fer: Maybe even if you had brought it up, as you said, maybe you would've brought it up in a different way. I don't know if you told her about the comment. 

Jesse: I don't think I was that specific. 

Fer: Right. But you know, I'm the type of person who would probably be like, oh yeah, you know, this guy told me that he wanted to drink me like a cup wine.

Fer: You know what I mean? Like, I feel like I've had to learn to be like, hold on a second, let me like put myself in. Seth's shoes or mm-hmm. John's shoes at that point or whatever, like my partner's shoes and like think of had the best way and the best moment to approach this. Like, actually I had a similar thing when Seth was moving in with me.

Fer: I [00:45:00] think I had a moment like, I don't know, I just kind of got frustrated that the like opening up was too slow. And I was like, I really wanna see this person type of thing, like pushing for it. And he's just like, Hey, I'm like packing up all my shit to drive across the country. 'cause he like drove from San Francisco to New York and like, you're asking me this right now.

Fer: It's, it just feels like, yeah. Context wrong. Wrong, yeah. Context. So it's like putting yourself in the other person's shoes, thinking about the context and then to bring it up when you have a check-in, which again is like, I feel like I keep like. Beating a dead horse with my clients. I'm like, have you had your check-in?

Fer: Have you had, and then they come in like, yeah, we had an argument because I brought this up at this the wrong time or whatever. And he's like, well, that's what the check-ins are for. You know what I mean? So 

Jesse: yeah, we actually had check-ins, like structured check-ins in our relationship and my ex was pretty avoidant of them.

Jesse: Like she didn't like to have them because it would bring up uncomfortable [00:46:00] feelings for her. So like we had attempted prior to this, even when things were good, we actually solicited a relationship counselor when, like we were still in the honeymoon phase when there were no problems and she was amazing.

Jesse: And then ended up having to pull out of her practice because she had, not an abortion, but like 

Fer: miscarriage. 

Jesse: Miscarriage, yeah. She had a miscarriage and like was like stopping her practice. She was this, this amazing counselor and then she's gone outta the picture. We're trying to do these check-ins without her kind of falls off.

Jesse: We start with a new relationship counselor who's horrible. Like the worst. Everything she said made the relationship worse. That's a big lesson. Don't just go to a relationship counselor 'cause she's covered by your insurance. Like pick the come, 

Fer: come to me, come to me. 

Jesse: Yeah, come to fair. She'll do a much better job.

Fer: Um, anyhow, so how did you end up breaking up? 

Jesse: Oh man, this is a story, but, uh, we were at this festival in Pennsylvania. [00:47:00] Elements. I was very like avoidant or resistant to the idea of bringing her to this particular festival because that coworker that drank me like a cup of water was going to be there. So I very much knew that there was like this very like potent potential for there to be some sort of fallout or some sort of like conflict at the event.

Jesse: And I told her about this, I told my ex like, Hey, like just so you know, this person's going to be there. You gotta promise me that. Like we're not, you're not gonna get into like some argument with them and like that we're gonna be okay. 'cause like I'm running this like 400 person volunteer program and like I don't have the time and space to navigate this like, relationship dynamic or like.

Jesse: Conflict at this event, and she promises me that. And I'm like, okay, fine. Like you can come to this. Like, I, I had thought about putting up a boundary like that. You couldn't come, but, or I actually did try to do that and that became like a whole wound in itself of like, you're going to this thing where she's at and you're like, 

Fer: and you don't want me to come [00:48:00] and 

Jesse: you don't want me to come.

Jesse: And you had told me that I could come and I was like, oh my God. Okay. So like, fine, you can come. Which again, lesson learned, hold your boundaries. Don't, don't do that. As soon as we get there, the interloper, I don't know how to call this, the person that drank me like a cup of water, just like to keep you using that to the 

The drinker 

Jesse: drinker. Yes, the drinker. Like as soon as we come in, like. Comes up to me and gives me a hug. Oh wait, the thirst trap. The thirst trap. Yeah. There we go. The thirst trap comes up and like gives me a hug and like, I guess makes eye contact with my ex and like says nothing to her. And so it's like already like, like catty dynamics are at play and like that riles up my partner and it's like day zero, you know, of the thing.

Jesse: And so we're trying to navigate that, but also on top of making this difficult, that coworker shared a workspace with me. Like they were in the booth next to where my booth was and there wasn't a wall between it. So it was like we were just like in the [00:49:00] same space and my ex wasn't working the event but like wanted to hang out.

Jesse: So she would be around in that space and like just was like con constantly commenting on like, you know, her being flirtatious with me. I'm like, and I'm like shutting that down. Like I'm not talk, I'm like. Super curt with this other person, like with the thirst trap. I'm like, Nope, not, not falling for that.

Fer: But like how did you deal with that situation? Did you tell her, Hey, my partner had an issue with it and we can't do this, but were you like still flirty a little bit? No, no, no. Were you like 

Jesse: I pretty much like had to hold that boundary like from back in April when that initial wound happened. I like, you know, told her about what happened.

Jesse: She was, you know, understanding. And I told her again prior to, you know, I actually had to have a check-in with her to be like, is it okay if I bring. My partner, you know, to this thing. I knew that it could potentially be an issue, and so I'd have, I had to like, but 

Fer: she was still flirting with you or that was just, yeah.

Fer: That was just your partner's perception? 

Jesse: No, I, and like, this [00:50:00] is where it's like I could, you know, say all these things like my, my ex was crazy. All this shit. No. Like, she was not, this person was definitely trying to play mind games and fuck with her. And, and there's, I was about to actually give a very specific example of that.

Jesse: My ex and I are in the back of the booth, like behind the, the tent quelling an argument that we were having that I think stemmed from something really silly. I think that morning I like farted in the, in the tent and then left and she was all pissed off about that and like. I don't know why that was an argument.

Jesse: Like just giving an idea of like where we were, the state of our relationship. Yeah, well Everyth becomes an argument. Exactly. And we were like, we're trying to like do relationship repair about my fart, like behind the dent, like in our own private space like no one else is around and thirst trap comes out of the tent and is like, is everything all right?

Jesse: The first thing that she had said to my partner the entire time, oh my God, when she's like. In an argument with me and like she was like, no, things aren't all right. And then kind of blows up at her. [00:51:00] It makes her feel uncomfortable in her workspace because my ex is spending time in the booth. So now it's like this issue of like, they can't be in the same space, but she's entitled to that space 'cause it's her workspace.

Jesse: And so like I have to then hold this boundary with my ex that I'm like, you can't be there. And that creates like a whole fuck load of problems for me in terms of managing, you know, like, oh, you're prioritizing her over this. The fact that this all happens like blows my mind with like, what's about to follow.

Jesse: But like me and her have this whole. Conversation and I validate how she's feeling. She's, she even commented, I like direct quote. Like, thank you. I feel so seen that like you're validating that this person is like totally messing with us and like, thank you for not thinking I'm crazy. All this stuff. We like, we hug it out.

Jesse: Like it's like a good moment for our relationship. This is like Saturday of the event. I'm like, sweet. Like we got through this. Like we navigated it successfully. It's Sunday. The last day of the event, for some reason my ex had admin privileges, [00:52:00] not my doing, but like had admin privileges over our like work group chat.

Jesse: She's day drinking while I'm working at the info booth and like she removes thirst trap from our work group chat that she needs to be in for work. Like, just like randomly like, 'cause she's drinking and probably like talking shit with her friends or whatever back at camp and like the, the woman who was working the event reasonably.

Jesse: Gets really upset because she's like, what the hell? Like, I'm trying to do my job. And you're like, you know, this person just like removing it, just like stoking the problem that we had just quelled yesterday. And so, you know, I add her back to the group, whatever. I'm like, all right, we'll deal with this later.

Jesse: Like, I just need to get through this event and like get out of here and never do this again. And in my mind, I'm already thinking like, I probably need to end this relationship. Like this is becoming a like a problem. Like I don't know how, but I'll deal with that. When I get home, I finish my shift, I go back to camp and I'm there.

Jesse: My ex is there, she's been drinking all day. She comes up to me and is trying to talk [00:53:00] to me about like that situation and I'm like, look, I'm like really upset with you right now. Like, that just created a whole bunch of problems for me that like I didn't need to deal with today. And I thought we had put that behind us.

Jesse: I need space. Like I, I don't wanna talk to you about, we'll talk to, we can talk about this when we get back home. And she like, gets very upset that I'm like not willing to like have that conversation with her and begins verbally assaulting me and literally not letting me leave the space. So I like literally had to run away to get the physical space to like be away from her.

Jesse: And I'm inside the festival with my GBF, who's like also working the event GBF, gay Best Friend whatever. Like my friend Devin, he's hanging out with me inside the festival. I'm like, dude, thank God I'm with you right now. Like, I just need to like be away from my team, away from my ex. Like I just need to have some space and like hang out with you.

Jesse: So we're hanging out. And then she's like, meanwhile texting me, blowing up my phone, like, you're all of this, you know, fuck you all this. Like, just like very vile shit. [00:54:00] And then she like posts on Instagram that I am a narcissistic abuser. She's like clearly drunk, like it, like it's drl, like, it's like just like incoherent sentences.

Jesse: She tags all of my clients. She tags What? Oh, she tags? Yeah, she tags. My ex. The person from the initial relationship. They 

Fer: were where she got the idea to call you narcissistic. 

Jesse: Exactly. This is where this thing is now coming up again. Like, alright. She's like, I want to, I'm hurt. I'm going to hurt back.

Jesse: You're like, you know, create harm. So she let like LOBs that bomb into like the most public commons, you know, Instagram at the time and is like tagging everyone, like. Taking all these selfies where she's like clearly drunk. It's like kind of silly, but it's like my world is now bloating again because like now opening this wound for my community in Portland, you know, tagging all my clients, God knows what kind of damage that'll do to my reputation in this field of work.

Jesse: [00:55:00] And you know, I immediately go into damage control mode, like block her on all the shit. I'm not even texting her back, she's still like sending me all these messages. I had sent my coworker, Vic to go get my shit from my tent because I'm like, I'm not sleeping there. She has packed up our tent, my tent with my laptop and all my work and stolen my rental car.

Jesse: Drove somewhere within the festival. My car is missing, all my shit's missing. And then she starts saying that she's gonna kill herself, which she has had suicidal ideation before in the past. So it's like something you kind of gotta take seriously when someone says that. And so we put an all points bulletin out at the festival for.

Jesse: The safety teams to essentially find her. And so we're working with her mom who has her location of her phone to pinpoint where she is in the festival. Because her location is live and they end up finding her in a porta potty with like a handle of alcohol. She's finally, we finally find her, they bring her in.

Jesse: The cops ask me like, she's like [00:56:00] still being like verbally assaulting me and at like the harm reduction tent. And they're like, sir, can you please like leave so we can like, you know, quell this situation and like, deescalate and I like leave. And I'm like, yeah, but like, just like make sure she has my rental car with like my laptop.

Jesse: Like please don't give that back to her. And I leave for 30 minutes and like talking to the harm reduction specialist, just 'cause I'm having a, like, probably the most traumatic thing that ever happened in my life is dealing with this person threatening to kill themselves and saying it was all gonna be my fault.

Jesse: For like hours while we're looking for her. And I'm like the only person that can communicate to her and she's just like, literally every message is just like the worst shit I've ever been said to me. So I leave, I come back after being like consulted and like she's hopefully like situated and the fucking cops gave her the key back because they couldn't prove that it was my rental cars, even though I explicitly told the cop.

Jesse: So she goes and drives off, still has all my shit and drives offsite, drunk. Drunk. [00:57:00] Yeah. Like that. That part is the most insane part too, is that, that she'd been drinking and they give her the keys back and she drives my rental car offsite. She. A couple miles off site to some gas station realizes she doesn't have enough money to pay for any of this shit like for gas or whatever.

Jesse: Calls me is like crying like you know, please help all this shit. And I'm like, oh my god. Like I'm pretty pissed. And I'm like, no. I'm like, call the cops. I'm like, this is where she is. Like she's at this gas station. Please arrest her. Give me my card back. Send her to a psych ward. 'cause she's not well and threatening to kill herself.

Jesse: Oh my god. 

Fer: Do this crazy. 

Jesse: Yeah. And then so that all happens. But apparently the law in Pennsylvania is that you need to like, you can't be in possession of someone who's in like a psych ward or like arrested thing. Like you need to like get that to them somehow. She get arrested, sent to a psych ward. I'm brought to the car, I get my car back.

Jesse: But the cop tells me, Hey, if you have any of her possessions, like you need to get those to her somehow. And I'm like, you know, it's four or five in the morning at this point and I have a 7:00 AM [00:58:00] shift to like do my job that I'm at this festival for. The very thing that I wanted to avoid, having to balance these two things.

Jesse: But I have to drive to the psych ward where she is. 30 minutes away from the festival. And meanwhile, I'm like coordinating with her mom. She's gonna get released and I'm gonna be at work. So like I can't physically be there and I don't really, you know, like I still have like love for this person. Like she's clearly in crisis, like threatening to kill herself.

Jesse: Like this person that I love that I did not want to be in this conflict with. Like, yes, I was mad, but I was also like deeply like sad for her. You know, she's in a different state in the middle of fucking nowhere, 30 minutes away from any of her friends at a psych ward by herself. Like traumatizing shit.

Jesse: Like I feel horrible for her. So I'm like working with her mom. I get a motel next to the hospital that she's at and like pay for the room, drop her shit off, and I drive back and work my shift. So she was at the psych ward from like four to like [00:59:00] 12 or something. But my shift was like from like seven to five or something.

Jesse: So like she gets out of the psych ward, I guess it's kinda like a drunk tank where it's like, you know, you have to be there until they can verify that you're not gonna be a harm to yourself. But at some point they allow her to leave. And it was communicated to her, I believe by her mom that like, Hey, this hotel that Jesse got you is next door.

Jesse: Your stuff's there. You can chill out. I go back and go to work, like literally no sleep, do my shift. And she's now apologetic and all this like sad, you know, like, please, I'm all alone. Her mom's begging me to like, don't leave her alone. Like please bring my baby back. She clearly has no means to take care of herself.

Jesse: 'cause she couldn't even afford gas without me paying for it. I go and console her and like, honestly, like I feel like I was really upstanding in that moment. Like despite this person literally trying to like ruin my life. Um, and did create a lot of damage that I have since had to deal with after that.

Jesse: But like. Like, despite that I go there and like be my most [01:00:00] compassionate self, you know, Hey, we're gonna get you back. Like we're, we're done. Like, I was very clear that we're like, this isn't a relationship anymore. And she was very sad about that. But like, I love you still. Like, this is really trauma traumatizing for both of us.

Jesse: Like, let's just get back. And so I was like a very weird space to be in the week after this event and before going to Burning Man, I am breaking up with my ex that I'm cohabitating with a, leaving a really stressful festival and dealing with all the damage control and like prepping to like leave work for two weeks while I'm on Playa and preparing for Burning Man and moving out of my house and like gathering all my things and like storing it with friends, put all my shit into storage, left for Burning Man and became like a solo poly nomad moving forward.

Jesse: It was a very crazy spur of a turn of events, but 

Fer: wow. What a crazy story. 

Jesse: Yeah, I don't know if this makes the podcast like some of that stuff. I, well, 

Fer: I mean, I 

Jesse: don't know. Some part's a big game. I mean, it's a good 

Fer: story regardless, [01:01:00] but like, what are some of the lessons maybe that you learned from that? I mean, one thing I was, that you already mentioned was the person not respecting your boundaries.

Fer: I, I feel like that's a huge red flag if you're like, I don't want to talk right now. Like, I need space. Or can you please not come, or whatever. And they just completely disregard that. 

Jesse: Well, I did, and then that led to the blowup. That became a way bigger problem. But I agree, like, yeah, that's a huge red flag for me now.

Jesse: I think other lessons, cohabitating with partners, like, I feel like it's gonna take a lot for me to do that with someone. Like, I'm gonna really need to be in like post honeymoon phase. Like I, I'm not gonna make this decision to live with someone when I'm like, swooning over you. I think that needs to be something where I have like a lot of security in a relationship.

Jesse: I think probably could have done a better job with thirst trap of being like, Hey, like you really gotta be like not, you know, it's unfortunate 'cause I don't feel like they really did [01:02:00] anything wrong other than like maybe being a little catty, but like ultimately like this drama was put onto them, like it wasn't their fault.

Jesse: Yeah, those would be pretty big lessons there. 

Fer: Yeah. Well, thank you for sharing. That's quite the story. 

Jesse: It's probably the most traumatic day of my life, honestly. I 

Fer: mean, it sounds insane. It sounds insane. And I mean, it does make me think because obviously we're just getting your side of the story and as we've mentioned, you know, they had the reasons and whatever, and yet I'm like, are you like attracted to like crazy, crazy women?

Fer: Because you know, again, we also talked about before how, yeah, how like sometimes you have these connections that are like very like fiery and fun, but that doesn't necessarily translate into. 

Jesse: Yeah, there is a graph that sometimes circulated as a meme with like the Y axis is the hot and the X axis is the crazy, and I like, definitely feel like I gravitate towards like the top right part of that, you know, graph.

Jesse: I mean, I would say probably 60% of my relationships are like short term or whatever [01:03:00] are with like women who fall more into the category of like crazy hot. Um, and then, but I've definitely had some really, like, since that relationship it took, there was like a lot of stuff there about like, just like how to like build back my self-esteem looking into whether I was a narcissist or not.

Jesse: Like really doing some introspection there. Learning how to bring up that this had happened with me with exes like, or with new partners that like what had happened because I felt like I had to kind of disclaim or like, you know, be like, Hey, just so you know, like I don't want this to come up like when we're like a couple months into dating that this is my history, you know?

Jesse: So like learning how to navigate that in check-ins and all of that. But I've, I've since had some very nourishing and like soul affirming and self-affirming relationships with like very stable women that I still admire deeply. That like made me realize that like, alright, I'm not this irredeemable piece of shit that these two [01:04:00] partners have called me.

Jesse: You know, like I can't have healthy, positive relationships and I can be at attract and am attracted to people that are stable and like, not firebrands, you know? And so bless them. Like, I'm super lucky to have had those relationships and now, you know, they've moved, I've moved on from dating those people, but like, they're still friends.

Jesse: So it's like, that's also a reassurance that like, I'm able to like transition out of a relationship into a place of like long-term platonic care and like deep love for one another, but just not like romantic sexual love. So. You know, yes. I'm attracted to the crazy hot. Even my most recent breakup, I would probably describe her on like that scale of like unstable, but like really hot and fun.

Jesse: But the one prior to that was like very stable and like in high integrity and like we're on a great terms. Yeah. 

Fer: No, and I mean, I'm not, I'm not asking it. Um, and not any judgment. Like I'm into the crazy ones too, you know? And like I feel, and I'm a little bit [01:05:00] crazy too, so like I, I, I get it like, like nothing, nothing like wrong with that.

Fer: I, I was just curious because sometimes I feel like, I see like really like sweet men. Kind of like really being into the, I mean, not just sweet men, I think, I think it's just, it's, there's an allure. There's an allure to crazy peoples. Yeah. I also 

Jesse: know that's how I would characterize myself, you know?

Jesse: That's flattery for sure, but I don't know if I'd, I'd call myself a sweet man, but 

Fer: Oh, you're definitely a very sweet man. 

Jesse: Oh, I don't know. I, I think, I don't know. I always joke that like, if I was in Hogwarts, I'd probably be in slithering. 

Fer: No, I mean, you were telling me how after those two relationships you were like, you know, you were researching what are like narcissistic traits and, and I was like, Jesse, you're not a narcissist.

Fer: Narcissists are not doing the research to figure out if there are narcissists. But you know, I understand why those experiences and how those women portrayed you and all of that, like caused insecurities in you. I mean, it takes a lot of like courage to be like, I did those things [01:06:00] and that doesn't mean that I'm that person, you know?

Jesse: Yeah, absolutely. I just felt like I had to. Like if lightning strikes twice, like maybe it's worth some introspection of like, what, what patterns am I producing myself or reproducing myself and. Yeah, I did my due diligence. I like looked into that a little bit and tried to even convince my therapist that I was, you know, narcissist.

Jesse: He was like, no, you're not. You know, it did create a lot of insecurity for me that like, I'm fine. That I had to deal with that. Like that's a fine outcome. And like, I think that like, I think made me a better person because I was like doing the work of trying to figure that shit out. But it did take me a long time to regain and like several relationships honestly.

Jesse: And having like, you know, learning how to have a check-in around that. I didn't wanna like create more harm, you know, it was very like, ah, like I feel like every relationship I'm touching is blowing up and they're calling me an abuser. Yeah. And all this shit. And I 

Fer: think that it just seems like you had a combination of yes, you made some mistakes, but also just bad luck when it came to, to all of this.

Fer: [01:07:00] So this was 2023, you ended this relationship and then what has happened since in the past two, three years? 

Jesse: I feel like I've had a lot of like short term relationships where I maybe dated someone that. Either wasn't a perfect fit or I was unavailable because of my traveling lifestyle. I do find it to be somewhat affirming that when I was physically in a place, I had the two longest relationships that I'd had in my life, you know, so it's like, okay, there is some correlation there.

Jesse: Um, but yeah, resuming my kind of solo poly, digital nomad lifestyle. Like, I dated a bunch of different people for like, you know, one to three months at a time kind of thing. And, uh, there was one semi-serious relationship since then that was like, I mean, I was a serious relationship. It was eight months, ironically, also with a woman in my Burning Man camp.

Jesse: Uh, the 

Fer: same, the first burning different second, the second Burning Man camp that 

Jesse: I'm in. [01:08:00] And it was really healing, you know, in a lot of ways to a, have a relationship with some of my community and be like. Be validated by people in the community saying like, Hey, this seems like this is a really good thing for both of you.

Jesse: You know, very caring and tender with one another. And it was just like this really amazing, we were open so we were able to see other people and then, you know, have been friends, uh, ever since. And like, again, that's been something that like, I just needed after having had many relationships that like didn't go that way after to like, have trust in myself and that like, alright, if I'm patient, like these sorts of relationships will materialize.

Jesse: And like, I don't need to like, think that I'm damaged goods and un incapable of like having those relationships. 

Fer: Yeah. And you know, I also think that having those difficult relationships, I, I also had, you know, toxic relationships in the past and it just helps me now to like see the red flags, you know, you are like, oh.

Fer: You know, I see that behavior that I saw in that person, and you're like, okay, no, that's not what I [01:09:00] want. So, you know, like you were saying earlier, like thank, thank you to those relationships that you have. Mm-hmm. Like, I feel like as much as we can be like. Pay attention to the red flags. Don't let people cross your boundaries, this and that.

Fer: At the end of the day, I feel like you just have to live through it. Like everyone needs to have like a shitty relationship to know what a good relationship is like, you know? 

Jesse: Yeah. Not just learning what your red flags are, but also like in those relationships, I learned what my green flags were. You know, like I, with the second ex, the one I was with the longest in Portland, like I learned that ambition was really important.

Jesse: Like, you can be a sex worker. Like, I don't, that actually didn't bother me, but it was more that you gotta be like, wanting for, for something and like trying to build something for yourself outside of that. So there were like lots of things that I also learned from like the positive standpoint. It wasn't like a negative trait.

Jesse: It was like actually like, wow, I really admire when someone's African after it. Yeah. It was 

Fer: true comparison to the things that, that you didn't like, you know? So even when you, that's why like any relationship teachers do a lot because if it's a good thing you're like, oh great, I want this. If it's a bad thing, it's like, I don't want [01:10:00] this, you know?

Fer: And, and you just like figure out, or you want 

Jesse: the opposite of that too. So that was a, a really helpful thing. And yeah, I mean all these relationships I learned a lot from and I wouldn't change a thing and you know, it's still crazy to be at 32 and not have had like a significant long-term relationship.

Fer: Thank you for sharing that. So I usually end my interviews by asking what would you tell to a poly curious person? So someone new to non-monogamy, what do you wish that you knew? I think 

Jesse: I would tell someone just like, or like give them the permission to seek those relationships or like to try this out regardless of what the social norms are or Yeah, our conditioning.

Jesse: Like it's worth experimenting for everyone by trying to like try on this like different way of relating, you know, like I haven't seen too many people in poly relationships for like the long term. Like too many people who have like been poly for. [01:11:00] Indefinitely like most people, I actually, those patriarch and matriarch of that first Burning Man community I was a part of like are now in monogamous relationships.

Jesse: Like I think it's like a phase that is like a worthwhile phase for everyone to go through. Like you could, there are people that are going to be perpetually poly, but I actually think it's like a thing that everyone should experience because it's mind expanding and it actually forces you to relate in a much more authentic way.

Jesse: All the things that come up in monogamous relationships or the things that undo monogamous relationships are things that you just confront in poly. So yes, it's harder to, to navigate these things 'cause you're doing all the things on like the hardest difficulty, but like that will just expose if a relationship's right for you or not.

Jesse: So in a lot of ways Polly is just like. A harder way of relating, but it can be like the best form. It's just like a challenge and it makes you have to like learn how to confront your jealousy, how to have better communication, how [01:12:00] to check in, how to be mindful of other people, how to be empathetic, like it just forces all of that.

Jesse: So like no matter what, it's a growth area. So even if it's something you don't think that's like what you want long term, like it's worth doing for a period of time just to have that experience and know what that's like and get better for when if you do wanna reenter monogamy. You're going to be a better partner because you had these experiences that Poly forced you to have.

Jesse: So 

Fer: I think that it does force you to learn a lot about relationships and about yourself, you know? So, 

Jesse: yeah. 

Fer: Thank you for sharing. 

Jesse: Yeah, thank you for having me on the pod. This is great. I haven't really talked to anyone about these kind of things in in long form detail before. 

Fer: Well, now, instead of having that conversation with your partners, you can just be like, here, here, here's the podcast about all my, you know.

Fer: Yeah. Do your homework before first date might be on, you know? Yeah.