Episode 68

Skyler: [00:00:00] I've encountered a lot of judgment and resistance based off of like how I've approached non-monogamy. It, it makes me so sad because I feel like. There's so many amazing experiences that people are resisting or hiding from or turning their nose up to because that person doesn't have the same eth ethics that they may have or whatever, you know, like whatever label you wanna call it.

Skyler: More people should, should not be afraid of a label or a stigma or what that may look like, you know, like at, uh, optics and, and just do what works for them.

Fer: Hi everyone. I am Fer host of this podcast and relationship coach, and today I'm talking to my friend Alex and her partner Skyler. And it is truly a fascinating conversation because Skyler has three partners, [00:01:00] Alex being one of them, and while they're all aware of each other's existence. They have a primarily don't ask, don't tell dynamic.

Fer: With the exception of Alex who has more conversations around Skylar's relationships with the other two women. And as you guys might know, I'm not one of those people that's necessarily against Don as don't tell. I actually have a dynamic with my partner, Seth, where I also don't share too much. Although I think with time I've been sharing more and more, and yet I think in this situation it is pretty complex because he is not prioritizing any one relationship over the other ones.

Fer: He is not jumping on a relationship escalator with any of his relationships. The three partners do want that relationship escalator with him, and while Skylar has been clear that he cannot [00:02:00] move in with them or have kids with them at this point, he's also leaving the door open to eventually stepping on that escalator with one of them.

Fer: Alex is in her mid thirties. Her biological clock is ticking. She does want eventually to settle with someone and to have kids with someone, and while in theory, she could go and find someone else to do those things with, if Skylar is unsure whether he wants to do those things with her, the reality is that it's really hard to do that when you know that there's a chance that the person that you want to do that with might want to do that with you.

Fer: And we didn't get to talk too much about it today, but they've been having a lot of issues around that because of course, for Skylar to get on a relationship escalator with Alex, he'd have to talk to his partners about that. And because he's not ready to take that step right now and because of the Dons don't tell [00:03:00] arrangement that they have, he cannot give Alex the reassurances that she would like to have.

Fer: And interviewing them got me reflecting on how doing both Don as don't tell and non hierarchy might be a little complicated because I think it's important for people to know where they stand. And even if you're non-hierarchical, if you know about your partner's relationships with other people, you have an idea of where you stand.

Fer: And what I'm afraid of is that, especially Skyler's, other two partners besides Alex. Are living under an illusion of monogamy, and he's working really hard to maintain that bubble. And I know he is doing it from a place of not wanting to herd his other relationships. But I think the moment that one of the partners becomes more visible to the others because he [00:04:00] decides to step on that relationship escalator with them, I think it's going to burst each of the bubbles that he's been working so hard to protect and ultimately lead to more hurt.

Fer: And yet he wants to continue these relationships with each of his partners, and he does not want to commit to an escalator with neither of them. And those feelings that he has are totally valid. I just wonder if the way that they're all going about it is sustainable. I shared this with him. However, as he says, he's being completely honest and transparent, and I do appreciate that, and it is true that these are all consenting adults and there's no lying or deceiving or manipulation.

Fer: So I think that this conversation shows how you can have really good intentions. You can be a really good person. You can love each one of your [00:05:00] partners very dearly and want to honor and protect those relationships, and yet find yourself in a very complicated situation. While I have my reservations, like I just shared, I still wanted to release this episode to give voice to people who might be doing things a little bit differently.

Fer: And even though it's not perfect, that doesn't invalidate their experience, I guess this is one of those stories where we'll have to wait and see what happens. The moment that he makes that choice, then maybe we can have a follow up conversation. But until then, I hope that you find this fascinating and as thought provoking as I did.

Fer: Here's my interview with Alex and Skylar. So Alex and Skylar welcome to Poll. Curious just context for the listeners. We are at my house drinking some wine. We [00:06:00] just had a lovely dinner. Skylar just met Seth for the first time. I'm super excited to get to know your story better because I've gotten little bits and pieces from Alex mostly, but we haven't really gotten the chance to really go deep.

Fer: This is only the second time that I meet you Skyler. So thank you so much for doing this. I appreciate you being here. 

Skyler: Yeah, thanks for having us. Uh, thank you for having us. I appreciate you inviting me on. I think, you know, like I, I've found out. Over the past, you know, year or so that, you know, I, I have a really unique take on polyamory and perhaps about unpopular opinions, but I think they could be valuable for, for people to hear.

Fer: Yeah, for sure. And I do have a lot of questions for you because again, Alex has told me a lot of things. Actually, one of my first questions has to do with how you guys met, but before we get there, let's just give a little context for the listeners. When you guys met [00:07:00] Alex, you were married? I was married, yes.

Fer: And Skyler, you were with two partners that. You are still with. Yeah. And that was about a year ago. Yes. How are you still on field when you already had two partners? I mean, because to me it's amazing that whenever I hear, I don't actually know many people who have a lot of partners, but whenever I hear someone that has three partners, I'm like, wow, how do they do that?

Fer: You know? I, I feel like for me, when I had two partners and one long distance, it still felt like a lot saturated. Yeah. It still felt like a lot. So can you maybe, uh, explain a little bit like where you were at in your life and what, like prompted you to go on field even though you already had two partners?

Skyler: Yeah, of course. You know, I was in a mono, what was supposed to be a monogamous marriage for 12, 13 years, something like that. [00:08:00] It's funny 'cause I see it a lot now. People think about trying, um, non-monogamy as like an effort to, to repair, uh, a relationship that might be falling apart. Especially one like, like mine that where we were, you know, married young and you know, perhaps for the wrong reasons.

Skyler: Um, in our case it was a, a ki our son that was born when I was 23, I think, you know, and of course we were very in love and, and we were ready to parent together. But yeah, as time went on. You know, it became apparent that that marriage was gonna be really difficult to maintain. And I think a lot of people look at non-monogamy as a way to, again, kind of like relieve some of the pressure on that.

Skyler: On a marriage like that, 

Alex: you put a bandaid on. 

Skyler: Yeah. Yeah. Honestly, I think it's a mistake almost every time the marriage inevitably ended and I got super curious, you know, like the, the whole, um. [00:09:00] Missed time or the, uh, wasted time mindset where like, oh, I've been monogamous for 12 years. Look, look at all exploration.

Skyler: Yeah. Like at all the, all these things I could've missed and mm-hmm. In my twenties, mind you, you know, like the prime of my life as most people would say. Mm-hmm. And I, I, it's funny, I started DJing swinger parties. I got, I got into a unique position where I could do that because I learned pretty quickly being a single man and, and, you know, this non monogamous community can be really difficult, especially some of these play party events, things like that.

Skyler: So it was cool to be able to, to be present while, while DJing and not, you know, kind of have some of that stigma put on me. And, you know, I had, I had one partner kind of going into that, you know, that I didn't necessarily meet in the non monogamous community, but it was just kind of like something I brought up early on saying that I would like to continue to date.

Skyler: I met the, the second partner while I was visiting New York. I, I think I had [00:10:00] gotten on one of the apps just out of pure curiosity, being in a new city for the first time. Just curious about like what kind of people are out there. There's 

Fer: a lot of 

Alex: good dating options there. I bet. Like people are super attractive there.

Alex: Like I would love to open there. There's lot of better options, remember? Yeah, like Colorado men are pretty, pretty nice. I will say I've, I've been very lucky on field. Yeah. Yeah. Obviously. Yeah. My, my past two partners I on field evidently. Yeah. 

Skyler: Yeah, that was, um, that was an interesting thing because I never intended on picking up a partner while I was there.

Skyler: And inevitably it ended up, uh, meeting I would go back and meet her and, and form a relationship, but it was always gonna be a long distance thing, you know, you know, I still have my, my, my partner here in Colorado that was getting more and more serious, you know, as we, as we had gone along this long distance thing was, was interesting and fun, but it was always gonna be that built in, you know, barrier.

Skyler: Um, and [00:11:00] so I felt safe to continue to date a little bit, but really without any goal or expectation other than just to, to see who's out there, who can I even attract at this point, you know, after being, you know, monogamous, monogamous husband, father for so long, like, I kinda lost my value, my sense of value, my sense of self, even.

Skyler: And so it was kind of like a, a fun litmus test to see like who's, who's gonna vibe with me? And it might be something to do with me. Like I personally, I just, I don't want to put any breaks on, you know, like connection. It seems so tragic to me to like say like, no, no, no, I can't love you anymore. Or I can't connect it with you anymore.

Skyler: Even though like, I want to, like my heart's telling me there's more there. Like, I think it's so tragic to say no to that or to avoid it. And [00:12:00] yeah, I mean, that's how you end up with three partners that you know, like it's without intention, surely. Because I think if I was planning it all, I, I would not be trying to juggle three partners.

Skyler: It is incredibly difficult. I'd like to say that the, that the value I get out of it is equal or, or, or even exceeding the, the work that goes into it. But I, I'm afraid it's probably a little skewed. I get incredible value out of it, but there's just a lot of time spent, you know, like mentally, um, on handling all of it because.

Skyler: Two of the partners, they have elements of don't ask, don't tell. Built in 

Fer: the other two partners. Yeah. Not Alex. Mm-hmm. Not Alex. Right. Not me. 

Skyler: Alex is, is, is the only one that, uh, and 

Fer: also the only one that's Polly, right? The other two? Or are the other two dating other people too? 

Skyler: Whether they are or they aren't, I wouldn't necessarily know because it's a don't ask, don't tell the situation.

Skyler: Oh, 

Fer: right. So you don't know. [00:13:00] But I mean, you probably have a sense, like even if you don't know, like when they are dating or whatever, like, you know, whether they identified as as non-monogamous or monogamous. Right, right, 

Skyler: right. Yeah. And, and I think that there was non monogamous traits in both of them. I don't know if that's necessarily like the direction that they wanted for their lives.

Skyler: In fact, I feel like perhaps not. They may have been looking for more of a monogamous relationship, but there was this deep sense that I needed to maintain my independence because in the course of separating my life from my ex-wives. I realized that I had little of it that was like my own, you know, like truly my own, and that that includes my identity.

Skyler: That was kind of a, a wake up call that like I had been give, putting too much of myself into a, a relationship or like another person. Mm-hmm. And that like a healthy relationship should be two independent people building something together, not two people [00:14:00] destroying themselves to exist in the middle.

Skyler: And so, yeah, just like there was this sense of like needing to in, uh, maintain my independence at all costs. Right. Non-monogamy made a lot of sense. And I didn't necessarily put any labels on it. It was just like what felt right? Like, I'm unable to commit to a serious relationship. I'd love to continue seeing you, but I'll be dating other people.

Skyler: And of course you should too. And it was acceptable to them. They just did not want to feel like they were in competition with anybody else. And, and I think that has a lot to do with, uh, their need for don't ask, don't tell or their, their wants for that. Because I think we all know that there's like, there's a big jealousy tendency and all of us and, and in non-monogamy, that's something that we, we face all the time and, and we really work on managing and you know, and some people.

Skyler: Don't like they, they, they [00:15:00] don't necessarily have to, you know? I think for me it was fine because each relationship could live in its own world in a sense. 

Fer: And you started the relationships with them how long ago? 

Skyler: The first relationship began a little over three years ago, and then the other two are just, just over a year.

Skyler: So I had been in the first relationship for two years before I ended up connecting with somebody else, 

Fer: which was the long distance person that lived in New York, and then she moved from New York to Denver. Right. So I think that helps providing some context, right? Sure. Yeah. Because I was like, okay, why?

Fer: If like you already had two partners, which it's not a judgment, I'm just like, no, you're really truly curious. Like why? If you had already two partners, you were on a dating app, that was kind of my question. But then at that point, one of your partners, 

Skyler: mm-hmm. 

Fer: Was not here. Right. Was long distance still. So therefore, [00:16:00] like practically in your everyday, you only had one.

Fer: Yeah, yeah, 

Skyler: yeah. At the time it really felt like I only had one partner, you know, especially on like a, on a day-to-day basis, you know, like I would, I would connect with this person in New York, you know, every other night over the phone or something like that. But since then, she, she has moved to Colorado and that was like, when I say I don't want to block, uh, you know, a connection, I, I mean more to that sense where like she says it's time to leave New York.

Skyler: She can't do it anymore. I say Colorado's a great place to be, but like, don't move here for me. Of course. Like, I don't want to be the reason you move across the country because remember, like, I have another partner and like, I'm, I'm not offering any type of commitment to you. Like, it feels like a big move.

Skyler: Right. And I just wanted it to be super clear that like. I can't be the reason she moves to Colorado. I could be a reason, but [00:17:00] there had to be more here for her than just me because I can't guarantee her anything. And I, and I, part of me wanted her to too. Like I love spending time with her and like who knows what that relationship could end up being at some point.

Skyler: And that's what I'm afraid of blocking. I'm afraid of blocking something beautiful because of course it would've been easy for me to say like, we'll never be more than this. Don't move to Colorado. Or to say like. I don't have space for you in my life in that way, so we should stop seeing each other or we should, you know, just admit that this is what it'll always be.

Skyler: I have a really hard time doing that part of it, which is how you end up with three partners that you love a lot. Like Hmm. Because, you know, by the time I met, uh, Ali or Alex as we're calling her here, I was super excited about it. You know, she's gorgeous, she's talented. She, she's so individually unique.

Skyler: It was just like, in a lot of [00:18:00] ways it felt like the person I was always looking for, and the timing was so terrible for me. It was just like, oh, damn, if just could have met her three years ago. I was surprised she was even talking to me, to be honest. So, so to actually get onto a date with her, um, I was telling my neighbors about her.

Skyler: It was funny. You did. And then, uh, to, to score a date with her was, was the most exciting thing to have happened to me in years. And, and then the, the date going so well, like, it was like a double-edged sword, right? Because I'm thinking like, wow, what an amazing connection. Cannot wait to see where this goes.

Skyler: But also knowing like. Oh, fuck. I cannot, I have no space for her in my life. Like I mm-hmm. Unless I take it from somebody else. And that just doesn't seem fair. 

Alex: But there, it was convenient because you had a ceiling at that time, because I was married, so it was kind of like seeing each other once a week.

Alex: But it was like exciting because like, I recently went through a breakup, so meeting Skylar was [00:19:00] like, oh, not the shiny new thing. But at the same time, yes, like I love this new connection. Like I'm excited again about dating. Like, let's see where this goes. But no expectations of, you know, making this connection something that was like so important.

Alex: Like, uh, now it's, now it is a priority in my life to make time for you. 

Fer: Yeah. I actually met you around the same time that you guys met. Mm-hmm. Interesting. And I remember when the second time I met you, we went to, um. A Reggaton dance. No, no. That was the first time we went to a Reggaton party the first time.

Fer: The second time we went to, uh, to a folk, folk. Folk Calico. Yeah. Folkloric dance event. Mexican folkloric dance event. Yeah. And I remember you telling me I met this man and we were just like so into each other and I feel so connected and all these things, and you were so excited. [00:20:00] Um, but yeah, as you said, you were coming from a breakup, not from your.

Fer: Not husband. Husband at the time. Like not, not the divorce that happened later on. Yeah, it was, it was a very intense year, but a breakup with With my former partner. Your former partner that you were with while you were with your husband. Yeah, and yeah. I actually remember the first time I met you, you were like, I just experienced my first poly breakup and then you told me the whole story and I kind of love that about you because I'm also the type of person who just puts it all out.

Fer: But I was like also like, okay, I just met this girl. She like, that's like dumping me. Then she's like telling me about, you were telling me about your mushroom trip and like your poly breakup and then this whole thing. And actually I think about that a lot now because now I'm going through my first poly record bad.

Fer: Like I understand how, how difficult it is, but anyhow. Alex, tell us where you were coming from in your journey when you met Skyler. 

Alex: So I guess like my poly journey is a like very different [00:21:00] than Skyler and I've been learning a lot from like, as he said, like don't ask, don't tell. Like when I met you even I was a very strong proponent of like, poly should be practiced a certain way.

Alex: So no hierarchies, like kind of like relationship anarchy. I recently got divorced. I was married for 12 years in a relationship with my former husband for 16 years. I got in my first poly relationship, I think it was 2022. That relationship was very intense, but that prompted me to learn. A lot about myself.

Alex: First of all, lot of therapy, poly group therapy, the boo like poly books, you name it more than two. The Ethical Law, Polly Zaki. Like I, I had a lot of will to be a very ethical, empathetic person in my [00:22:00] poly journey. Uh, then first poly breakup was around, I think it was April. 

Fer: So April last 

Alex: year. April last year.

Alex: Yes. Very sad Summer. I also experienced my first mushroom journey, which was like very healing in, in many ways because I, I learned that the things that I really needed to heal in order to have good relationship was, you know, like my dad wound. So that was like very telling, like, oh, I'm, I've been looking for kind of like my dad and a lot of the women right.

Alex: Men that I date. Yep. So at some point I was like ready to date again, which that was September amazing first date. I was like, swiping on field. Then I saw a beautiful tall man with a saxophone, and I remember, and you know, the mushroom is related because like [00:23:00] in his profile he put like a little tag that says ecology, and I'm like, oh.

Alex: Mushroom and then we talk a little bit about mushrooms on on chat. And I think, like we only talked like for like two days before like jumping. I was like, oh, let's, let's meet each other. And I remember, and I've never done that. I went to this like holistic crystal store. I went to buy, I think it was like an Oracle deck or something, but in like in the cashier, it was like little mushroom stones.

Alex: And I knew that I had a date with Skylar the next day, so I bought two. Oh, so you bought him a gift? A gift first. First date. First date. Yeah. Yeah. No, it was an amazing first day. Like he was super moved when I was like, oh, like I've never done this, but like I, here's a present. Oh, that's so sweet. Yeah, I was 

Skyler: floored.

Skyler: Like, here's this, here's this beautiful woman that I am excited to meet. And it's funny because like I wanted to bring her some micro doses. I just didn't have time [00:24:00] to make 'em. And when she presented me with a gift, I was like, oh no. Like I, I had the same thought, like I wanted to bring you a gift. Might feel a little corny to do that on a first date, but I wanted to do it.

Skyler: And then you gave me a gift and I was like, well, what is this universal I'm living in? Because I felt so, like out of your league, even like, I don't know, I was just enamored by you. So that was, to receive that gift was like, was, was shocking to me. And after that it was like that whole date, I was just walking on sunshine.

Skyler: I was just like, gobsmacked. 

Alex: It was, it was, it was a lot. Like the next day I was like, oh my God. Like I, that's when I saw 

Fer: you. I think 

Alex: I, yeah. I think it was like, or two days after my first day with Skylar and I'm like, I cannot wait to see him again. Like I, there's something here. Hmm. That. It is very intense, but it, it was, it felt like a connection meant to be because like, we are being in support for each other, for many phases of my life at that time.

Alex: [00:25:00] Like I didn't know how, you know, my marriage, like how bad my marriage was. I decided to get divorced by the end of that year, and it was not necessarily polyamory. I, I talked to my ex today just a little bit and we agree that sometimes like polyamory shows you like how incompatible some couples are. And, and as Skylar did, like I get, I got married like when I was 23 and I, we were trying to play house at that time and we are so different and I have a lot of love for him still, but we are not good for each other.

Speaker 4: Mm-hmm. 

Alex: Uh, and I don't know, like. And it's not like we're trauma bonding, but like this man here, the connection felt like extremely like close After I decided to get divorced, I feel like I had somebody that [00:26:00] understood me, what I was feeling, like how disconnected and like, oh, did you feel the same? You know?

Fer: Hmm. Because you had gone through a divorce too. Yeah, yeah, 

Skyler: yeah. Just like two years before that. 

Fer: Yeah. As I understand it, you, I don't know are, or were at the point you met Alex, like also non-hierarchical. You had two partners, but you weren't like, you know, one of these two partners is the most important partner in my life, and that's a partner with which I'm going to marry and have kids again or whatever.

Fer: Mm. Uh, you were more like, no, I'm treating all of my relationship. As equal to certain degree. Right. That that was kind of your philosophy. 

Skyler: Absolutely. Yeah. And mostly because that's what felt the most fair. I like to think of it more of like bubbles and that like each relationship exists in its own world, in its own bubble, and while in that bubble, that is my partner.

Speaker 5: Hmm. 

Fer: How was that for you, [00:27:00] Alex? I mean, coming into this dynamic where Skylar already had two partners dealing with that as you became more available because of your divorce? 

Alex: Exactly, because like there was not a ceiling anymore. When I thought about Skylar as a potential long-term partner. It was around March, we went to a Eric Brides concert, and I don't know why, but we bonded.

Alex: Like You don't know why. Huh? I don't know why. I was like, I'm a man of something and a friend named Molly. No, it was pretty fun. But I felt, you know, like people call Molly the heart opener. Like it was an incredible way of connecting with someone that I never felt before. So then I remember having this conversation with Skyla like, ah, like I am feeling a lot for you and I don't know how to name this.

Alex: And you [00:28:00] knew me. I was like trying to practice p polyamory by the book. Like, oh, I wanna beat my mes. I wanna like, I had like a lot of trouble because like these people didn't wanna meet me and for me, like having a donuts don't tell was not an option at that time. I just like, felt so uncomfortable not knowing, but then I realized that that was my own insecurities and not feeling secure in my connection with them and within myself to not handle not having the information that I wanted.

Alex: Right. 'cause information to some degree is control. It is control one. For me, it was 100% control. Like if 

Fer: you don't know, you don't know that things are under control. Yeah. If, you know, you can make sure that things are under control. Right. Yeah. So it's like 

Alex: I, I, I know who you're with the what days, you know, like, and right now, like it doesn't matter.

Alex: And I'm still learning, honestly, to be comfortable with not knowing. But yeah, like then [00:29:00] March and then months moved along, then it was like I was falling deeper and deeper in love with Skylar. And it's such a weird thing because like, I'm still grieving my, my marriage. I'm falling in love with someone. It is kind of like going through a breakup and having other relationships at the same time.

Alex: Like, you probably know what, what that's like. Mm-hmm. Which is so, so hard. But it's like, I feel like very supported by, by Skylar, and I feel like he really understands what I'm going through. And I've talked a lot to, you know, my friends with you, that even if, if I'm poly, like I'm, it feels like I'm operating in a monogamous mindset because my only partner is Skylar, but like, dealing with my grief and Skylar and adding an extra partner, it sounds like very unrealistic to me.

Alex: Mm-hmm. Like, I, like then I will be polys [00:30:00] saturated. Like, I just, like emotionally, I don't have the capacity for that. And the only way that I, I will commit to creating a family with someone. Even if I didn't believe in before, it is putting a hierarchy because I wanna feel prioritized. Like if I wanna form a family with you, it's like, oh, let's strength our bond or connection together.

Alex: So I'm, I know and I'm sure that we can be a team for parenting. 

Skyler: Yeah, I agree. And, and I don't really necessarily have any like hard beliefs one way or the other on like, which way is the right way. I think for me and especially fumbling through it the way that I have, it's always been about finding the right situation for the relationship, or at least in, in each bubble, I should say.

Skyler: Because a part of of them not wanting to know about my other [00:31:00] partners means I must maintain a bubble in a sense. And, and there's definitely some pluses from that, you know, there's also some really difficult parts, I'm sure, as you can imagine. One way that would relieve a lot of that pressure is if, you know, like my partners not only knew about each other, but could communicate to each other and about like, perhaps, you know, like me struggling with something at work and like one, can somebody grab his kid or something, you know what I mean?

Skyler: Like there's, I understand like the, the, the picture perfect. You know, poly want that 

Fer: What up? Group team? Skyler? Yeah. Like, you know, like, it's his birthday. 

Alex: Let's, let's plan a threesome, like a foursome. 

Skyler: In theory. This, this is all possible in, in polyamory, but. And I digress. It's not in the cards for me at the moment.

Skyler: I mean, Ali has a lot of poly friends and, and getting to know them, I've encountered a lot of judgment and resistance based off of like how I've approached non-monogamy. [00:32:00] And it's not just from her friends, but I think from the community as a whole. And it makes me so sad because I feel like there's so many amazing experiences that people are resisting or hiding from or, or turning their nose up to because.

Skyler: That person doesn't have the same eth ethics that they may have or whatever, you know, like whatever label you wanna call it, I think nobody should be scared of, of experiencing something. And if it doesn't work for you, then, then that's okay. I think that's really what it, the heart of non monogamy is. I think more people should, should not be afraid of a label or a stigma or what that may look like, you know, like, uh, optics and, and just do what works for them that allows the love and the relationships that they want.

Alex: I agree with you 100%, but I, I have like, some critical, let's say, stands with like certain policies or agreements now [00:33:00] that I'm judging anyone right here. But we discuss like, because like I love Seth. Seth, if you listen to this podcast, yay. Um, he, Seth is my partner for this. Yeah, we, we love Seth. He might not know, but um, he, he implements Don don't tell when he feels the need to, but that is like something that is fluid.

Alex: And for me, I've seen hi him as somebody that is always doing the work for understanding non-monogamy. And I really admire when people get to a safe place of like feeling secure with them themselves and their relationship and, and to a certain degree, you know, the don't ask, don't tell. Like, yes, it is to protect like some people's feelings of jealousy.

Alex: I experience that and whenever I experience that, they're, they're like big. But for me that, that is confronting, that is showing [00:34:00] that, that is putting a mirror in, in front of my face is don't ask, don't tell my preference. I feel like right now it is because the way that I wanted to practice polyamory didn't align with his other relationships.

Alex: Because like, if you are the only poly person, I feel like I was like doing a lot of emotional labor in trying to manage an quote unquote, a poly cue that didn't exist because like these other people were never going to make space for me like I was doing for them. 

Speaker 4: Mm-hmm. 

Alex: And I was like feeling the pressure and the weight of carrying a relationship that it was not my responsibility.

Alex: So now it's like, how do I lose control? Because like I always wanna see myself as like this empathetic person. Like, oh, one of your partners is going through something. Like, yeah, go tend to them. Like, I know that I have my needs, but they need you more right now. And I know that I'm going to be okay right now.

Alex: Like I am, I feel like I'm [00:35:00] catching myself a little bit more guarded about my quality time is like, oh, first of all, I don't know, but like if other partner is going through something, if that is communicated to me, sure. But that. You know, like, it's not like I create that space anymore. Like I'm more selfish.

Alex: Right, because they 

Fer: because they don't create that space for you. Exactly. Because for you, you, the standard was like, okay, I'm going to make space for these people in my life. Yeah. When they weren't making space for you. Yeah. So that's why you switch from being against Don. Ask, don't tell to actually let's do Dons until, and I remember the time you, you came to me and you were like, you know what?

Fer: We decided to do donuts until now we don't have any issues anymore. And I was like, I told you, and just to be clear, when I say Dons until is not, it's not the typical definition. It's a partial, it's, it just means like you don't share the details, but you, you do share the general picture, you know? Yeah.

Skyler: We'll see. And there we go with the label, right? Like, I think don't ask, don't tell means to me like [00:36:00] that. Yeah. There's, there's parts. Use the pieces that work for you and you know, like it, everything is modifiable. We don't need a specific name for what we are. 

Alex: For me, I struggle with being a secret, you know, because like Oh, of, of course.

Alex: Yeah. I love hardly, and you know, like, it's like I just wanna like scream to the world that I love you, but like, if I cannot do that, it's like where like I don't wanna put my, my love in a box. Yeah. That is a thing. We spend like now, like three days a week, which is like a lot for like three partners. And 

Fer: how did you communicate that to your other partners?

Skyler: A lot of the times it comes from my time mm-hmm. That I give to her. Um, I'm, I I see it's important to not take away from other people. Oh, so you 

Fer: haven't taken away from the other partner? Because I'm like, oh, if it's done as don't tell, how are you like, oh, now Alex wants to spend more time with me. Right.

Fer: Sometimes it's 

Alex: concerts, so we cannot, we cannot do anything about that. But it's like we go to a lot of concerts together. [00:37:00] Mm-hmm. So it is okay, that is a Friday, that's a Saturday. So before it was kind of like, oh, that is the day that I see my other partners. Like, oh. But I communicate that like two months in, that's like, I'm gonna get tickets for this concert.

Alex: Can you? Mm-hmm. Can you make it 

Fer: or, and how do you communicate that to your other partner? 'cause before it was like, weekends are mine. 

Skyler: Right. Well, luckily the partner that I spend weekends with, we have very dissimilar musical taste. So, so it's usually, when it's a concert, it's usually pretty easy. Like, oh, I have tickets to this concert.

Skyler: Uh, you would hate it, by the way. So I'm gonna go to the concert. Um, and I'll, you know, usually there's an and 

Fer: so you don't tell her I'm gonna go to the concert with my other partner. You just say, I'm gonna go to the concert. Usually I 

Skyler: don't like, I, I will tell unless she asks. Like, that's the thing, like the version of don't ask don't tell that I like to practice is like, of course you can ask.

Skyler: Like generally we don't 'cause we know it's gonna upset us, but like if you need to ask, you have the opportunity. I will be the other partner has to be honest. [00:38:00] Like that's, of course you can ask. All my partners know about their other's existence, like they mm-hmm. It's not like it's a secret, but I usually, there's, there's always a way to make it up.

Skyler: And again, like I have to be very creative and it costs some brain power and, and, and, uh, creativity. But I do my best to defend the time that I have with each partner, and that there's always some way to make it up if something's being taken away. 

Speaker 5: Hmm. 

Fer: Right. But at the end of the day, you know, you are already struggling with having three partnerships, so you couldn't live with three people, have kids with three people.

Fer: Right. You couldn't, you can't prioritize three people all the time equally. Right. Like, you can't divide your time 33% for each partner. Right. So at the end of the day, yes, that was your philosophical orientation of not wanting to put one person above the other. 

Speaker 4: Mm-hmm. But 

Fer: realistically. How did that actually work?

Fer: Because as I understand it, your other two [00:39:00] partners, they might or might not be seeing other people. You're, you might not be sure, but it doesn't sound like they have another 

Skyler: partner currently. No, I don't think I, I think there was, there's been a few partners that have come and gone, but I, I do not think that there's any other at the moment.

Fer: Right. And do they want marriage and kids and that sort of thing? 

Skyler: Yeah. Yeah. I'd say that if, if that was something I was ready to commit to that that's something that they would want, I think it really all boils back to that fierce independence part. 'cause all the while I was also building a business to starting a, a new business of my own.

Skyler: That required a lot of attention and a lot of energy to be honest. And they're also very understanding that this is like tumultuous place in my life and that. Having a baby right now makes zero sense financially, physically for a lot of reasons. And so perhaps I'm kicking a can a little [00:40:00] bit, um, by keeping myself super busy.

Skyler: Sometimes I experience little guilt. Would this person be having kids now with somebody else or whatever? Like I, I worry that I. My choices, uh, affect my partners. I, it's, it is kind of a silly exercise because one thing, as I'm always honest, like with, with partners, and that's like the most important part, like everybody's allowed to make their own decisions and they all deserve all the information that they want to make those decisions.

Skyler: A partner of mine two years ago was explaining like, oh, uh, you don't wanna be on a relationship escalator. You know, like things can happen in the relationship, but it's not like one after the other where like each one is grander than the one before. And I'm like, perfect. Yes. I don't want that. Whatever that, whatever the opposite of that is, that's what I want.

Skyler: Right? Like, I still wanna be open to these pieces of the relationship, like again. Not wanting to, to limit what that relationship might be. Someday, maybe it is the [00:41:00] right time to move in with a, with a partner. Maybe it's not, but like, I don't want, I'm not stepping on that escalator with anybody. There's been a lot of, a lot of conversations that just inevitably ended, like I don't have the capacity for that right now.

Fer: I'm just asking because I think what can be tricky in these situations is that I, you have all the right to not know where you're going with each one of your partners and to communicate that, but at the same time, I think that when you leave a door open, then you might have three partners that are just like waiting to be picked, right?

Fer: To be the ones that you do make that decision with. What I usually tell people, like, not if you're non hierarchal, that's fine, but then be clear about what you can and you cannot provide from the start. Because if you are like, oh, I'm non hierarchal, so that means that. By default, I'm not going to go with one of my partners that tells the other person, oh, okay.

Fer: Then that means that [00:42:00] it could be me. And then the other person then might not go and explore and, and or like go and find another partner or another encore partner, primary partner, whatever. 

Speaker 4: Mm-hmm. 

Fer: Just because they're waiting for the partner that's non-hierarchical. To maybe pick them, pick them, make that choice.

Fer: So how do you deal with that? Do you think that your other two partners are still like waiting to see if you might make that choice? No, I. 

Skyler: I real, I really don't, at least not based off conversations we've had, because like I said, especially with the second one who was moving to Colorado, I had the conversation or I brought it up just to say like, you cannot move here.

Skyler: For me. This is not the direction I, I can have this relationship go in. I, I think I've made that in cases obscenely clear, that like, like if that's a part of your life that you need, go find it. 

Fer: Right? Go find it, but there's a chance I might give [00:43:00] it to you down the line. Which I think that, that's where it becomes tricky of like, don't count on me if you want children and if you, if you want married, go and find it.

Fer: But also I might want that at some point with you, just not now. 

Skyler: Yeah. I think at some point you have to trust somebody's ability to make choices for themselves. You know, all the only thing I can do is be as clear as I can about my intentions, my, my reality, my wants, my goals. I, of course it would be, it would be a tragedy to me if someone ended up missing motherhood or building a, you know, a home somewhere.

Skyler: Right, because 

Fer: do do any of your other two partners have kids? No. And they both want kids. 

Skyler: I don't think either of them wanted kids before they met me. I guess. I, I have a, a son who's 13 and he's my number one priority. Above all else, being a good dad is, has been one of the most important [00:44:00] things in my life, but I think my partners see that.

Skyler: I have heard from both partners that like they, they would have kids with me. My first partner age is an issue. She's a bit beyond the natural pregnancy age and having a child with her would require some medical intervention, which I've been very clear that I would, I was not, um, able to participate in.

Skyler: Like, I just, that's just not how I, I can bring a kid into this world right now. It's, that's kind of already solved itself in a, in a sad way nonetheless. I, I, I feel bad because, like I said, it, it, it did feel like my decision 'cause I didn't wanna participate in that. But, you know, time is, uh, a bitch. 

Fer: Mm-hmm.

Fer: Time is. So we've talked about your three partners potentially wanting some more of a relationship [00:45:00] escalator situation with you, and you're being very honest, even though you know I have my questions as, as you know, I've been asking you today in a way that's a very ethical way to do it because you are being very transparent about what you need and what what you provide in the moment.

Fer: But how does that work? Because then Alex, you said, now that I've realized I want kids, I do want hierarchy. How does that work between the two of you? Right? Because I know that when you started, there was more of a. Um, a ceiling. More of a ceiling. Mm-hmm. Um, but now that you've realized that, and also you are, are you 36?

Fer: I'm going to be 36 in February, yeah. Yeah. You're 

Alex: 35, right? So like my biological clock is like, 

Fer: hey, is, is sticking, right? Yeah. So how does that work between the two of you? Like what, how you had that conversation? 

Skyler: Yeah. You know, uh, we have Ali herself has said, you know, now is not the right time to, to be having kids or to even [00:46:00] be like planning on it like it is this.

Skyler: What I've called in some of our arguments is like an expiration date that I'm afraid of if I can't meet her needs as they change, you know, on that date whenever it needed, which, which 

Fer: happened with your other partner, there was an expiration date with her, and then you couldn't meet those needs with her at that moment and then the expiration date passed.

Fer: Right, 

Skyler: right. And in this case, you know, she's, she's been clear that she needs a, a monogamish type relationship where she has a, a hierarchical partner. Um. You know, and it's gonna look very monogamous. Like, so like basically it means I'm out. You know, like if, if I can't, which it's, it's sad to think that, that that's like, that's my, my chopping block.

Skyler: It may be possible that I am able to meet those needs in some form or another, you know, like nobody has a crystal ball and nobody can see the future. I think [00:47:00] certainly she deserves a partner who not only knows that date, but is like working towards that with her. And I sure hope that can be me. I really do with just with my, my, my business and my son alone.

Skyler: You know, that's a lot to, to undertake starting a new family. My other partners may have nothing to do with it. When it, when push comes to shove it, it just may be that it is just impossible for me, or at least it may feel impossible. I, I, I sure hope it's me and, and there's many pathways that it can be me.

Skyler: It doesn't mean that I lose my other partners. Perhaps they're willing to open up into a more open poly situation. I, you know, like there's a lot of ways in which those relationships are comfortable in their bubble. You know, the, the vascular surgeon is a very busy, professional woman, doesn't have a lot of time.

Skyler: You know, like I said, like the, the, the age difference with my other partner made starting a [00:48:00] family difficult. Um, but she's also the most open I find, to a more open poly situationship, I guess we could say. So like with, with some more conversations, she may be willing to, to, to go that route. I, I don't know, like when, when the parameters become more clear and I can actually decide what the hell I want out of life, other than, you know, your 

Alex: business in your, your kid.

Alex: Yeah. You 

Skyler: know, three beautiful women in my life. When I get a little more specific, you know, like maybe the things change, like I said, sometimes it feels a lot like kicking the can, but with time brings clarity and perhaps that that'll be the case here. 

Fer: Mm-hmm. Since you are done as until I imagine that.

Fer: This hasn't been communicated to the other partners of, you know, there's a potential that I might end up doing relationship escalator stuff with Alex. Right. But when and if the time comes, how is [00:49:00] that conversation going to go? Right. Because the partner that missed the deadline for having kids with you and wanting to have kids with you, like how is she going to receive ah, well now I'm having kids with someone else, right.

Fer: Sex. Oh, 

Skyler: sure. Yeah. That would be a really difficult thing. And and honestly for a long, for, for a while she was worried I was gonna leave her to have kids with somebody younger anyways. Like that was already like a built in worry. I think in a lot of older women feel that way. Absolutely. That's just it.

Skyler: Like that's already a concern for women, you know, who, who are dating, especially younger men, like understanding that that worry of hers, being careful with that, but also like. Making it clear that like, I can't promise, you know, anything, nobody can promise anybody anything In reality, like the most I can promise you is that I'll take care of your heart like the best that I can.

Skyler: And I, that's a promise I refuse to break. And I think that if you put things that way and just promise each partner that no matter what happens, I will care for your heart. [00:50:00] I think most partners are willing to, to follow you anywhere. 

Speaker 4: Mm-hmm. 

Skyler: Down any road. I, um, yeah. I, I 

Alex: even if that means breakup because like, it is also, I mean, that destroying the other person, like, like, uh, in my, in my case, like I got divorced with a lot of compassion and understanding that, you know.

Alex: Like, I love you baby, but I'm, I, you're hurting me and I I will hurt you more. Yeah. Yeah. 

Fer: And uh, just so I don't leave, like the cliffhanger of what we were talking about before. Yeah. Because you mentioned, you know, you feel like the balance is a little skewed and that like what these three relationships are giving you is not, at this point, it feels like it's not more than what they are like taking away from you.

Fer: Why not end one of their relationships? 

Skyler: That's a good question. I think part of me is a coward. I don't want to hurt anybody when I promise to care for your heart. [00:51:00] It feels like I will never do anything to harm it, which is silly. Like inevitably that will happen, even if it's just an accident and 

Fer: it will harm them more if you wait longer down 

Skyler: the road.

Skyler: Yeah. But the other, the other part is like, because it's non-hierarchical, which one do I end? Right? Like, which one is the most difficult to manage when I do love all three of these people? Like what are the metrics in which I judge which one is worth ending? You know, 

Fer: whatever you want. 

Skyler: Right. Well, it 

Fer: is not about what they want, it's about what you want.

Skyler: Therein lies the problem. If I'm being completely honest. 

Fer: Yeah. 

Skyler: There really wasn't any clarity on what I wanted. In fact, it was the opposite. It was like, let me get some of all of it. You know, let me just see what's there. And I never slowed down and took the time to say like, okay, out of all of that. What is it that I appreciate the most, or which is it that I don't want, I mean, it's easy enough to say what I don't want, but what happens when you have too much of a good thing or you have, uh, too [00:52:00] many?

Skyler: Yeah, it, it gets a little difficult. So I, I do think that like in my near future there is some, some serious meditation that needs to happen and, you know, not, not only for myself, but like you said, for the, for the sake of everyone involved, for me to be ultra clear on what I want and no longer like wishy-washy and like, well, let's see.

Fer: Yeah, and you know, I understand that you want to be honest with where you're at and not make any promises that you can't fulfill. And yet just kind of waiting to see how you feel in the moment at every stage of the way keeps people waiting to see if you happen to feel in the way that they want you to feel to then align life.

Fer: Directions. And I think that if your other two partners had other partners that they could have kids with and like do all of that, then it's like, okay, that's fine because they're not waiting on me and I know it's on them. It's not your fault. Like you have to trust them to do whatever. [00:53:00] You are communicating clearly what you want.

Fer: But their reality is that they do wait. So I think that's where it gets a little bit tricky. So I'm glad we had this conversation because obviously you are a kind person, a good hearted person, and I know you care about your partners. And yet when you go into non-monogamy in this way where you are managing three relationships where people can escalate, where three can escalate, you know, people get hurt and you know, it becomes difficult.

Fer: And I think that actually, this actually ties into my last question, which is, uh, what would you tell to a poly curious person, like what would be your advice managing this? Three relationships of what you've learned that as you said, like, okay, I, maybe I also do need to do some introspection and like stop kicking the can down the road.

Fer: But what are some things that you feel like you have learned in managing these [00:54:00] three relationships and that you can maybe share with maybe listeners who are also non-hierarchical and also managing three relationships where there might or might not be escalating and you're just like figuring it out.

Fer: You know, 

Skyler: something that I, I guess obviously like how I ended up in this position to begin with was that, was thinking things would stay the same, thinking that my long distance relationship would main, would stay that way, right? Like or. Thinking Ali was going to be a married woman. You know what I mean?

Skyler: Like, things change. And me refusing to like cap emotionally, um, with somebody means that like I've, I've ended up inundated and I know boohoo, I have three beautiful girlfriends, but like taking care of all three of them is, is difficult. And like, I, I would say like take a second to, to breathe and, and check in like with yourself about like how honest you are about like where this [00:55:00] relationship can go, at least divorce and, and my other partner moving to from New York to Colorado means that, you know, now my workload is, is higher.

Skyler: And, um, 

Fer: workload, 

Skyler: it is work when it comes to like, you know, making sure everybody's needs are met. Because I think that's like, as no matter what, as, as their partner, like they, I owe that to them, you know, to make sure that they're. Expectations from a partner, their needs are met. And if I say I can do it, then I'm doing it.

Skyler: The only other advice I would give would be like, if you can know what you want, um, have, have some clarity on, on what you're looking for. Uh, there's nothing wrong with exploring and letting a relationship run without breaks, but you could end up in a situation where, where it gets really difficult to exit or like hard to, to navigate, um, or you meet somebody incredible that you're just so excited about, you can't say no to.

Skyler: And, um, [00:56:00] you're telling your neighbors, um, you know, like, that's so sweet. Having, having that clarity, um, will at least make it a little easier to navigate. I, I may be unique in the sense that like, I just, I just, I have a, I refuse to cap a relationship. Like I, I think built in caps are great, you know, like, um.

Skyler: It can never be more than this. 'cause I'm married or it can never be more than this 'cause I live a thousand miles away. But like if the, if the connection is there and the accessibility is there, why, why say, it could never be more than this when, you know, I, I'm a romantic I guess in that sense. I just, I just love, love and as much of it as I can get.

Skyler: Mm-hmm. 

Alex: A truly polyamorous Yeah, exactly. He 

Fer: like, oh, I do it very and yes, I mean it is unique in any case, but you actually are very polyamorous or relationship and 

Alex: our kids because this is right in the moment. It's like what? He's feelings like I don't have the capacity to give [00:57:00] more. Yeah. 

Fer: And it's like very clear.

Fer: Yeah. And the thing is that it's true that like people should be able to make their own decisions. It's, it's whether it's hard, it's whether they're also in that mindset, you know, whether they're also in that relationship anarchies mindset. And I think maybe the, the difficulty in your situation is that your other two partners.

Fer: Maybe do not see things in the same way and are maybe more like monogamous leaning and more, uh, you know, having certain, certain monogamous expectations. But again, you know, you are being clear what what you want and your desires. So at the end of the day, as you said, you know, um, everyone's gonna do what they're going to do as long as you're being honest.

Fer: I think that's the most, the most important. 

Skyler: Right. That's, that's my hope, you know, is that like honesty will win. You know, like, like I said earlier. Trapping somebody is like, uh, is is one of the worst case scenarios for me. That's the last thing I want, you know, is for somebody to feel like they were trapped or like, you know, like their options are now [00:58:00] limited or whatever.

Skyler: Like they were holding out for something because they didn't have the entirety of the picture. So like, honesty is always the case for me. And I mean, to be determined, I guess, you know, like any, like I said, anything is possible, like a big part of like waiting and finding out and the time bringing clarity could mean that things go the other direction and, and it becomes more difficult or, or does, you know, turns sour.

Skyler: You know, most of my effort is really just spent on minimizing that possibility and at the very least being able to say, like, I, I was very clear about what I was capable of. And, and you had all the information you needed. 

Speaker 4: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

Fer: Yeah. Yeah, that's right. Uh, how would you, Alex, oh God, what would you tell to a poly curious person?

Alex: My biggest lesson on this relationship and my, my previous poly relationship, which was a more like a poly kill because it, I wasn't a double V. Like [00:59:00] my, my partner, my ex-husband was dating my partner's partner, so it was kind of like a double V, very confusing, very complicated. Shout out to my ex if you listen to this.

Alex: We're great friends now, but it's like. What I learned with Skylar is being fluid and not so rigid with a mindset. Even with you. Like, uh, I've been learning in my poly journey is like, be able to check with yourself and then see if another method works for you because like I was, no, this should be this way.

Alex: Like. H hierarchy is unethical. Like I, yeah. Dons 

Fer: until is unethical. Hierarchy is unethical. And then in the past year that I've met you, you're like, actually I kind of like Dons until, and I kind of want hierarchy it. 

Alex: It is, you know, like understanding where people are coming from and it's like extending compassion to them because like not everybody's in the same journey.

Alex: Like as much work as I've done on myself, like, and I still need to do a lot of [01:00:00] work, especially on feeling secure with my partners. It is, you know, like checking with yourself, checking with your partner. That is the best thing that I have from Scholar is like his honesty is. I just don't have the capacity for this right now.

Alex: And our relationship, like got better and better with time is like more time is allocated for me. Being able to just like, share my needs, which I still struggle baby. I know at some point I, I feel like having three partners, you need to have a big structure to be able to allocate time for everyone. It is very fluid and I, I like that.

Alex: At the same time, it makes me a little bit uncomfortable because like I have some controlling tendencies and I like to plan ahead. Yeah. So that's why, you know, like having a hierarchy of having these conversations about like primary where things are going, like if I'm going to have kids with you or not, like this conver, these are like ongoing [01:01:00] conversations because like for me, having a.

Alex: I don't know, like a three year plan makes sense. And I feel like as an adult, like I should have that, like the, the next year I wanna buy a property is like, I mean, 

Fer: I think especially if you're going to have kids, right? Yeah. 'cause I understand that, you know, let's say you still have like five years, right?

Fer: Yeah. So you're like, okay, you know, maybe I can be like another, like, you know, even like three years with Skylar. Yeah. But then if at that point Skylar was like, no, you know, I'm not ready for this. Yeah. Then, you know, finding a partner, like it's going to take you a while and then like yeah, your expiration date might have passed.

Fer: Exactly. Right. And like the same thing that happened to the other three. If 

Alex: it is like, am I ready to close the, our relationship right now? Like, no, because I'm still like, as he said, like leaving and finding yourself in your own world. Like it is very important. Now I live in my own apartment, like I'm having a, a great time.

Alex: I really need to experience that before [01:02:00] jumping. Yeah. It's not like you, it's anyways at this moment, but, or living with someone. But it is a concern, you know? Yeah. It is something that I'm just like, I need to start like thinking when is that realistic to happen? And it is scary because like we as women, um, we have that, I mean, it sucks time time's a bitch.

Alex: Yeah. Um, I'm mindful and you know, if the universe doesn't put that on the cards for me. Sure. Am I going to try my best to get that? Absolutely. But you're also okay if it doesn't happen. If it doesn't happen. Okay. I, I will understand that. Let's say in a month or two, like, or at the end of the years, like Skylar, I just need a timeline and that means like, I don't know, like you need to talk to your other partners.

Alex: Like I don't wanna put that pressure on him. I'm not ready for that right now. But can that happen with him or another partner, like in the future? Like, I don't know. It's just like, be, be very [01:03:00] mindful about people's time, but also be fluid because like even if breaking up divorce, like ending a relationship sucks sometimes is the best thing that you can do for yourself and for the other person Too.

Fer: Breaking. Yeah. You just have to do what feels right for to, to you in the moment. Yeah. Thank you guys so much. I know these are hairy topics and vulnerable topics, so really thank you so much for opening up your hearts and minds today, and I'm sure this is going to be super thought provoking and people are going to benefit from listening to this conversation.

Fer: Absolutely. So thank you so much. Yeah, thank you for having us. 

Skyler: Thank you.