Transcript of Episode 66

Fer: [00:00:00] Don't get ahead of yourself. I feel like, you know, we meet someone, we start like imagining our future with them and we think like, oh, what if this happens? Or what if that happens? And we have fears, insecurities, future tripping. Mm-hmm. And what I realized in my journey is that, you know, you might be worried about that and then the next day.

Fer: It might not be a problem anymore, or the next day, another problem is gonna come around the corner, right? So there's no point in future tripping. Just do what feels right to you in the moment and really listen to your intuition. Be present with whatever it is that's inside you, and learn to communicate that with other people.

Fer: Hi everyone. Welcome to Poly Curious. I am fair. Relationship coach and host of this podcast, and today as a guest, I have myself, actually, I was [00:01:00] interviewed by a, who was a guest on the podcast a couple of weeks ago. She's a friend of mine in Denver, and I asked her to interview me because I feel like I have.

Fer: Learned so much from people who come and share so vulnerably in the podcast, and I figured it was time to do the same myself. I have of course, shared some of my journey, especially on Paton, but only bits and pieces, and today I'm really talking about my journey from my background, my relationship with Seth.

Fer: My relationship with my sexuality and masturbation even, and also my relationship with John, who at the time we recorded this episode was my secondary partner. Since we have broken up, and in this episode, I bet that you'll be able to hear a little. Taste of the reasons why we ended up breaking up. But I also recorded another whole episode for my patron talking [00:02:00] about the breakup specifically and all of the lessons that came with it.

Fer: And I know to you it might seem like John and I were together briefly because I only released my episode with him a couple of months ago. But for context. That episode I released a couple of months ago was recorded in February, so many months ago. Today's episode was recorded early September, and John and I broke up about a month after that.

Fer: So him and I were actually seeing each other for over a year and a half, and it was long distance, but definitely my first time experiencing a partnership with someone besides my primary partner, Seth. And in reflecting on why we broke up, I think we were both lacking the stability that's required to navigate non-monogamy.

Fer: And if you have ever been through a breakup with one partner while you're in another relationships, you probably know it's a very difficult [00:03:00] place to be. If you want to hear more about all of that, you can find the link to my patron in the episode description. I will also add my previous episodes with both Seth and John in case you want the full scoop, as well as another couple of patron episodes where I've talked about my experiences.

Fer: But anyhow, today is not just about that, it's also about my journey, my approach to relationships. The difficulties I experienced having two partners and having to deal with conflict with two partners. And perhaps something that I didn't talk about enough in this episode is also how wonderful the experience of having two partners was.

Fer: I do not regret absolutely any of it, and I feel really grateful that I had the opportunity to feel. Fully seen and held and like I could be my full self sexually with John and then have a relationship with Seth where I also felt fully seen and held in other relational aspects and what a privilege to be able to experience that.

Fer: So I hope that you [00:04:00] resonate with some of the things I share today, and if you do, I would love to hear from you. You can write to me at Poly Curious Podcast on Instagram or to my email Poly Curious podcast@gmail.com. Okay, well this feels a little strange to say, but here is a's interview with me. 

A: I am super excited to be here today.

A: My name is a, and I was actually a guest on this podcast a little while ago with my husband Jay. I am a married mom. Um, been married to my husband for 25 years and living together for 30 years. Mom of a 20-year-old daughter and a 17-year-old son. Came to poly or to I guess non-monogamy a couple years ago.

A: Found fair, fell in love, and here I am now together in Denver. So I get the opportunity to kind of ask you all the questions that I've had over the last, I [00:05:00] don't know, six months, uh, learning all about your story. 

Fer: Yeah. I love it. I'm so excited too, and I think you're perfect for it. As I told you, I actually don't remember who it was, so if you're listening, uh, remind me who you were.

Fer: But one of my clients or podcast listeners or someone at some point was like, you should get interviewed. Curious by someone else. And I was like, oh, interesting idea. And I was like, you know what? I'd be down. And then I was kind of like breaking my head, trying to figure out who would be the right person to do this.

Fer: The obvious choice would've been Mariah, who's still my bestie, but she's not non-monogamous anymore. She, um, doesn't listen to every single poly curious episode. And then I met you and you're like, I listened to all of your episodes. I know everything about you. I know. And like the first time we met for drinks, it was like funny 'cause it seemed like, you know, you knew me from forever.

Fer: And then I also know that in the regular world, outside of [00:06:00] non-monogamy, you do public speaking too. Yes. So I was like, okay. A is perfect. Let's do it. Yes. So I'm very excited to, to have you here. 

A: I've been a guest on, I don't know, probably two or three dozen podcasts, maybe more. Oh wow. Um, as a guest, and so this is my first time.

A: Being the host. So it's still very new for me and I'm very excited. But this is an easy transition because I am so curious about you, no pun intended. And your story has always resonated so deeply with me, and I don't even know why we're so different, but I just feel a strong bond with you. And so I think my natural curiosity will come out.

A: About you. So there's been a lot of sprinkled information about your childhood and how you were raised and where you went to high school and where you went to college, and how you got involved with non-monogamy. But I was hoping maybe for people that are just listening, because they just found your podcast and now there is one where they can meet you, maybe you can give a little bit of a background about.

A: Where you came from and how you 

Fer: got here. [00:07:00] Sounds good. So I was born in Mexico, but I was born in a Cuban family basically. My dad is Mexican, my mom is Cuban, but they divorced when I was four years older, so, so I mostly grew up with my mom and my aunt and friends that came from Cuba sometimes and stayed at our house.

Fer: So even though I didn't leave. There for too long. I, I was there only for like six months. Um, in my early twenties. I do feel a strong connection with Cuba. However, I'm definitely Mexican, but when I was 16, I applied to go to, uh, what's called United World College. It's not actually a college. It's a high school.

Fer: Well, not just one. They have several. Around the world and if you apply for the scholarship, they might send you somewhere. So I wanted to go to Italy or Canada, or you know, some first world country and they sent me to India. Oh my God. No offense. I know you're Indian. [00:08:00] 

A: No, I've never lived there though. But yeah, I can't imagine shock.

Fer: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think coming from Mexico, I wanted a European country or something. Yeah. And yeah, it was a shock. I had a really interesting deep time full of personal growth and yeah, I feel like it was really difficult as well to be away from home. I didn't speak English very well, but it really pushed me to, uh.

Fer: Do whatever I wanted in my life. Like most of my friends in Mexico are still in Mexico, and that also has its benefits. But for me, that was the thing that made me then live all over the world. After that, I studied in Amsterdam for college and then spend some time in Cuba, as I mentioned. 'cause I had a Cuban boyfriend.

Fer: Mm-hmm. I actually, I don't know if I mentioned this to you. Yeah. But I got married. Yes. You got married? Uh, for papers. Yes. Uh, even though we were together, we like got divorced right after. 'cause as listeners might know, most Cubans can't leave the country unless they, you [00:09:00] know, marry or get a visa. Some somehow then got to New York.

Fer: Broke off that relationship soon after because he was just manipulative and sexist. And once I arrived to New York, actually I met, uh, someone who ended up becoming my boyfriend later on, and he introduced me to the whole Burning Man. Well, I wanted to get 

A: there. I wanted to get there because I think it's such an interesting way to enter into.

A: This alternative way of having relationships where you said you met them like as soon as you landed. Was it on the plane? Was it at the airport? Like how, how did this happen? 

Fer: Yeah, I mean, this is actually a great story. I met. Who would become my boyfriend? Let's call him D in case he doesn't want to be named.

Fer: I saw him in the plane. We were in the same flight, but we didn't really talk, but I kind of like saw him at the airport kind of looking at me and I was like, brand new. First day in New York. I had never been there. [00:10:00] About to be a student. I was only 23. Was he older 

A: or younger or 

Fer: He, he's like three years older than me or something.

Fer: Okay. Okay. But anyhow, we share a cab. I'm like, oh, where are you going? Should we share a cab? And and he was like, oh yeah, totally. Like, yeah, it's on the way. Not on the way at all. Wait, wait. Where 

A: were 

Fer: you going? You were in Manhattan, right? Yeah, I was going to the Upper West side because I was, uh, studying at Columbia.

Fer: Right. And he lived in Brooklyn Heights. I know. So like, totally out of the way. But he was super sweet when I like offered to pay for half the cap. He was like, you're welcome. Gift to New York. And I'm like, okay, wonderful. And then next day I realized I lost my wallet. What with my passport, with my money, like I had no idea, no money.

Fer: Fresh, like first day in the city. I know no one. So then I contact Dee asking him, Hey, can you check if I left my wallet in in the Uber or whatever? And he's like, no, [00:11:00] it wasn't there. But like, are you okay? Do you need anything? And I'm like, well, I just came out of Wells Fargo and there's no way that my family can send me money without an id.

Fer: I need an ID to get the money. And I have neither. Then he's like, okay, just take the subway and I'll meet you here after work and I'll give you money and I'll help you. I'm like, okay, great. And then I look at how much money I had and I had only like two 50. Could you get left? No. Like a subway. The subway was 2 75 because I had spent some money on like a fucking hotdog 'cause I was starving.

Fer: Yeah. So anyhow, I had no money. So he's like, okay, I'll get you an Uber. So he got me an Uber. Yeah. He comes out, he brings all these like snacks from work and he's like, uh, here, $500 in cash. And I'm like, okay, thank you so much. Like I'll pay you back, blah, blah. I thought, you know, that was gonna be it. I was gonna go back home.

Fer: And he's like. Well, are you busy? Do you have anything to do? And I'm like, no, no. Literally I have no one, no nothing. Like, [00:12:00] and he's like, okay, well let me take you out. And, you know, he took me out and we actually never ended up having sex during that time. Uh, he tried to kiss me at some point and like I push him away.

Fer: And he knew I had a boyfriend at that point. Well, I was married. Well, I, I was divorced technically, but I was still with the Cuban boyfriend who would move to New York with me. They knew that. But he didn't care. And you know, he took me to my first festival. We ended up like going to this after hours place at like 4:00 AM in the morning and then he left and then I met this like group of people and they were like, we're going to a river in Connecticut.

Fer: And I'm like, okay, I'll come with, and I ended up like first weekend in New York, just having this wild experience. Just like full of life though. Yeah, no. Amazing. I mean, I think about it a lot and it was really wonderful. But anyhow. Dee had been to Burning Man. He told me about it. He introduced me to his friends.

Fer: Eventually I, my boyfriend came and then he came. [00:13:00] Yeah, he came. Okay. To live with you? To live with me. Wow. And. He was just not happy with me having a life. Yeah. And him not having a life because we had been in Cuba where he had the friends. Yes. He had the family, he had everything. Right. And then I am in New York, and even though I was new, I had met some people while he was gone.

Fer: I had my career, I had a school, I had classes. A life. A whole life. A whole life. Yeah. And that was just hard for him. So he would like pick up fights. So anyhow, we broke up and then a couple weeks later, DD like picks up the phone and like calls me and he's like, Hey, how are you doing? He had heard I had broken up with my Cuban boyfriend.

Fer: So, so then him and I started dating, but I was not ready to have a re another relationship. I was still actually grieving my Cuban ex-boyfriend because even though I broke up with him, I, I loved him. Yeah. But it was one of those where you keep thinking. He'll, he'll change. He's [00:14:00] well-intentioned. He's going to get a job, he's going to do this.

Fer: And he was just not that type of person. Well, you're ambitious, 

A: like you are the one that decided to go to school in a different country. You were already like ready to experience all the world hat. 

Fer: Yeah, I mean, I was doing my master's at Columbia and he didn't even try to find a, a job. He messed up his papers and like it took a long time for him to actually get a green card, even though he could, he could as, as Cuban, Cuban, a Cuban.

Fer: So yeah, I was just very frustrated of like me feeling like I was carrying the weight of the relationship and him like just being lazy and sexist and, and picking up fights when I was trying to write my and a little bit envious maybe my master's essays. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So just had to break up with him and that was difficult and, you know.

Fer: By the time I got with, with Dee, I had already discovered non-monogamy. I made some friends. [00:15:00] Wait, you knew He was also non monogamous, so he, he wasn't, he wasn't. Oh, that was the issue with him, that it was my slot era, you know, and I was for sure making out with people left and right. Andy really wanted something serious like he had been waiting to have.

Fer: More of like a stable partnership, and he saw that in me and I remember. Him being like, oh, now that we're dating, I told Natasha that I'm not dating her anymore. And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no. Why did you do that? Like the opposite of what most women want. Like, I'm like, no, no, but why? Like I, I, I think you should continue dating other people and I want to continue dating other people, but he would just have a hard time with it.

Fer: Again, I was still grieving my ex-boyfriend and wanting to explore. So at some point I just felt a little, okay, I need, I need space. Need space. Yeah. So I was like, let's, let's take a break. Mm-hmm. And then the moment we took a break, I started going out and making out with people. And I was like, this is, this is [00:16:00] what I want.

Fer: This is my jam. This is what, this is what I'm feeling like I should be doing. But it was really difficult for him. He had some like mental health struggles after that. And then funnily enough, that was about almost 10 years ago. And, you know, we're still friends. Yeah. He actually just came for, for my birthday and Oh, fun.

Fer: About like two or three years ago he broke up with his girlfriend. Not the most recent one, the one before. Then we kind of like had a fling again Nice. In Mexico. And it was so funny because before he was the one who was like so in love with me and I was like, I need space. I haven't, you know, gotten over also even like sexually, I wasn't, I didn't even know how to come.

Fer: I think if you listen to that patron episode, you know this, but I didn't like figure out how to. Masturbate until I was 24. So fast forward, I'm like, okay, now I know what I'm doing sexually. And it was like a whole different experience. And the interesting part [00:17:00] is that then I was the one who was like falling for him.

Fer: Yeah. And then he's the one who ended things with me. Not because he wanted to explore, but because he found someone else that he wanted to be monogamous with. And Well 

A: that's a really interesting point there about just learning how to masturbate, right? Like because of. The patriarchy, like women are not, it's almost like a blessing and a curse.

A: You have to be sexual, but you also can't be too sexual. And so a lot of women fall through the cracks of what is the relationship with my body supposed to be like? And when you're not exploring at a young age and growing that relationship sexually with your body, how do you know how to do all of that?

Fer: I mean, it's interesting because for me, I don't feel like I had the shame that a lot of people have. Mm-hmm. Uh, a lot of women have of like not wanting to be sexual, but I just like literally couldn't figure it out because I never really watch porn. I think a lot of the porn is. Male centered. Absolutely.

Fer: So they don't mm-hmm. They don't really [00:18:00] show how, right. How women, it's all fake. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, they don't really show like women touching their clit and coming Yeah. Without penetration. Right. Right. I mean, I'm sure Newport does and actually puts even then recommendations, but Yeah. Yeah. I mean, even then, like even it doesn't, it's 

A: pretty, but it's not like actually what.

A: Is what you need. 

Fer: Exactly. And And we're all different too. Exactly. So I've never been the one to come from penetration. So I would have sex and I would enjoy it. Yeah. But that wouldn't make me come. Yeah. And then when I like tried to touch my clit, like I just didn't, didn't know the motions. Like I just didn't, like I didn't know what I have to 

A: build the tension and Yeah.

A: All of that. You just don't. Yeah. And 

Fer: actually the first time that I. I actually don't even know if I orgasmed or not. But the first time that like something happened that I was like, okay, I actually squirted. Okay. So I was like really confused. Yeah. Like what's that like? I was like, is that what I'm aiming for?

Fer: And I actually remember the first time I managed to, to make myself come, and this was even after I met Seth. So it hasn't even been, wow. Seven years [00:19:00] was because I was, wait, so before you met Seth, you still were not Yes. Knowing how to Yes. Make yourself? Yes. Okay. The first time it happened, I think. We were still long distance.

Fer: It happened within the first year of our relationship and I was sexting with someone. 

J: Okay? 

Speaker: And that's how it actually happened. And then I understood that what turns me on is to think of the man. Looking at me and Because you know you're sending pictures and video. Yeah. And so like me thinking of him get getting turned on.

A: Yeah. 

Fer: But then also because it was sexting, I didn't have the pressure of him being there. Right. Right. So I could take my time. Yes. That was like a period where I was, even as I met, met Seth, but I think I had already like calmed down a bit of like a lot of sexual exploration, even though I didn't. I didn't know how to come.

Fer: I still enjoyed sex. Yeah. And I, I was still having sex with, with people. And you still enjoy 

A: it. Absolutely. If you enjoy bodies and the connection and the excitement. A brief caveat about me, I also have learned through non-monogamy [00:20:00] and having multiple partners or having more than my primary partner, um, how to have an orgasm every single time.

A: Now, that wasn't true for me. I used to be in a situation where, um, yeah, the lighting had to be right and I had to have certain thoughts. My mind is what would guide the masturbation. And so if I didn't have those particular thoughts, then it's like my mind led my body. But through non-monogamy, my body now leads my mind.

A: What I've learned is a guarantee for me, and maybe this is interesting for other women out there, and maybe it's hormonal. I'm 51 for anyone listening. If I squeeze my legs together and have clitoral stimulation, I have orgasm every single time. Hmm. And so it can happen with oral, with a partner. It can happen with a tool, a toy.

A: Uh, it can happen with a hand job either myself or my partner, and every time I have an orgasm. Since I learned that trick, there has not been a single time I've had sex with a new partner or with my partner, or when I'm masturbating that I haven't been able to have orgasm. 

Fer: [00:21:00] Oh, good tip. I will try it. It's true now that I think about it, that when you squeeze your legs, it does feel better.

Fer: Or like even when you like lean forward a bit. Like do like this. Okay. Try it. Good to know. No, but yeah, I mean. That's one of the beautiful things about non-monogamy. I actually, I said I, I don't come from penetration. Yeah. But like I've realized also through having sex with John, my secondary partner, that I can touch my clit and then, you know, yeah.

Fer: And then come that way, like I hadn't like put those. Two things together, you know? Yeah. I mean, it had happened before, but like now I'm learning different ways of, of coming. Yeah. And bringing that into my primary relationship as well. So it is really great to explore with different people. 

A: I'm just saying it's, it's opened up a whole new world for me.

A: And I've been, prior to being open, I was in the same sexual relationship for 28 and a half years. And the sex was wonderful and we knew what worked. But now it's like a whole new, a whole new ball game. It's great. Okay, sorry. So we are with you and back to you and Seth. You are just learning how to pleasure yourself and have an [00:22:00] orgasm.

A: Um, how did you meet? I'm so excited and curious about hearing about this part too. So your partner now is Seth. He's your primary partner. You live here with him in this beautiful house. 

Fer: How did you guys meet? We met at Burning Month, seven years ago. Uh, this weekend was our anniversary as it was yours.

Fer: Apparently. This is another thing we have in common. Common, but yeah, I mean. I was actually talking to Seth and I asked him, what's been your favorite part of the seven years? And he said, moving to Denver and you know, buying a house together and like setting up the house and all of that. And it was like, oh, I think for me it was when we met because I was like, it only went downhill from there.

Fer: Jokingly. Jokingly. No, 

A: he's such a homebody. I mean he love, you can tell he has a lot of pride in home ownership and just 

Fer: doing things around the house. It's very cute. Oh, he loves it so much. Yeah, definitely. Home is his happy place. Yeah. But yeah, for me it was very special because it was my first burning man.

Fer: I was 24. And again, even before I had learned to masturbate, I [00:23:00] was in this period of exploration. I had just come back to New York, 'cause I actually spent some time in Miami after I finished my Master's. Then I was like, uh, nope. I'm going back to New York. That whole burning man. I was kind of by myself, not with a camp.

Fer: Uh, no, I was there with a camp for sure. Okay. But like, I only knew one person from the camp. Okay. Uh, this woman I had just randomly met in Miami actually, but at this point she had moved to New York. Uh, she, she was traveling. She, she's Dutch. Uh, she's a model and she was just like traveling and I just met her and she's, she was like, oh yeah, I'm going to Burning Man.

Fer: Yeah. But yeah, I was in a moment in my life where even though I had moved back from. Miami to New York, which is where I wanted to be and where I had a lot of friends. I had lost some friends, and also I didn't really have a job. I was freelancing for Forbes. I, I was like writing articles, but you know, I was like struggling financially, struggling to make new friends and just in a difficult moment [00:24:00] in my life.

Fer: I went to burning one kind of on my own because the, the, the friend that invited me, she's younger than me, I think at that point she was like 19 or something, or like 20. Okay. And I was 24. Yeah. Which at that age does feel like a big gap. She's a very mature person, but she had never done drugs and kind of like w went in like more of a chill plan of like, actually her plan name was Sunrise because she would like wake up for sunrise and like do yoga and Nice.

Fer: I was much more like, yeah. Let's go party. Let's go party all night, let's go late. Let's go meet people. So I had like a wild adventure. I would get lost and it, it wasn't like apparently is now, which I'm really sad to hear, but now there's like service and people can be on their phones and things like that.

Fer: At that point, there was none of that. So I would lose the people that I had from my camp and then I'd be like, okay, I either like go back to camp. And probably I won't see them anyways because they're out and about, or [00:25:00] I just make new friends and have my own experience. So that burn, you know, I would meet someone, be like, I'm coming with you guys.

Fer: And I would just go with them. Yeah. And then I would be like, okay, I don't wanna hang out with these people anymore. I'm going here and there. And I didn't really have someone that I spent a lot of time with, but I had like a few men that I met that I kissed. Yeah. And, and then when I met Seth, it was the Friday, so the fifth out of.

Fer: Seven days and it was like. Immediately, I just felt such a sense of like, safety. Wait, where were you? What was set us up? Give us the, oh, okay. Okay. Okay. Tell us what happened. So we are, so we were, our camp was like 120 people. Okay. So we were, uh, that party actually. And he was in your camp? He was in my camp.

Fer: Okay. And I had noticed him because he had DJ'ed and I think he had noticed me because I, I was doing like acro and like, he just saw me like doing acro yoga. 

J: Yeah. 

Fer: And I thought he was cute, but, you know, that was it. And then. We did like, I think afternoon party. So it was [00:26:00] like a chill, chill party. Both Seth and I were sober and we were both on our own and we both just kind of like arrived to the middle of the dance floor and we were like, oh, hi.

Fer: Yeah, I didn't realize we were in the same camp. Oh yeah, we should, we should like correct that we should hang out. And you know, we talked for maybe like 20 minutes and we had decided that we were going to spend the night together basically. I remember just next to s just feeling like so safe and so like I'm so glad I have him.

Fer: And you know, as much as I'm an independent woman, I do feel like my relationship with Seth has been a lot feeling like really safe and like protected with him. I immediately felt like I was at home. And then I think for Seth, when he met me, I was so pure, like after burning one, you're just like. Being my most authentic self, which is very honest and very out there.

Fer: So he sensed in me that I was just very transparent and that I think reassured him [00:27:00] that he wouldn't have to guess with me because he cares a lot about people and he doesn't wanna get it wrong. And some people just don't really like speak their mind and hide things. Yes. And you know, expect the other person to.

Fer: To guess what they need and when they don't get it from the other person, they get mad and all of these things. So I think for him, even the fact that I told him, because I told him immediately, like second night we met. I wanted to be open, even though he didn't want to be non-monogamous. He appreciated that I said it from the beginning.

Fer: Beginning From the beginning, yeah. Because he's like, okay, she's not hiding it. No, she's authentic. She's pure in that way. So that's what I think attracted him to me. 

A: Yeah. I think that just speaking on that point. And I'm, maybe I'm in a little bit of a, a renaissance period with my non-monogamy, but it feels like what you're describing, which is guesswork, guessing what women want, guessing what men want.

A: I find that being in an open relationship and openly relating with other people and takes away that guesswork. People are a [00:28:00] lot more honest about just what they want. Yeah. And I find that type of way of relating way healthier than what we're 

Fer: practicing with monogamy. There's a lot of value in just being Yeah.

Fer: Straightforward with what you need and yeah, not having to, as you say, guess what people are thinking because it's really. 

A: The honesty is what brings out real connection amongst people, right? Sharing what's really inside of you without worrying about, oh, what's this guy's feelings gonna be? And I have to be quiet and I have to do this little dance, and I have to, it's too much.

A: I find that the honesty at this second half of my life really, and being around other people and non-monogamous people, the honesty is incredibly refreshing, satisfying, fulfilling. I don't know almost as much as anything else. 

Fer: Yeah, for sure. And I think that's why my relationship with Seth has been so great because we're just straightforward, you know?

Fer: And again, he feels like he can be his true self because I'm being my true self and [00:29:00] we don't judge each other or judge our feelings and we just put it all on the table. You know, even though I might not always share absolutely everything, um, you know, I might not share about my relationships with other people.

Fer: Mm-hmm. I still just. Whatever's relevant to us. Yeah. And whatever feels important for me to share with him, I know that I can be a hundred percent honest with him, you know? Yeah. And he, he can be a hundred percent honest with me. 

A: We've talked, I've, I listened to Esther Perel, I'm sure you have too. Yeah. And she talks about privacy versus secrecy and what things can be private.

A: Yeah. And what things can be secret and, um. Jay and I, my husband and I over the weekend, we were talking a lot about that, you know, reflecting on our 30 years together, or 25 years of marriage together. And one of the things was, yeah, it's okay to have private things. It's okay to have some private things that just belong to a, or just belong to fair and.

A: You having private things about you that just belong to you. Allow Seth and Jay to have things that just, [00:30:00] it, it makes you a richer human being. A more allows you to have more complex thoughts and you can have thoughts that exist outside of that primary partnership, which you're having anyway. But now you can be honest with them and you can see them and share 'em if you want.

A: Don't share 'em if you don't want. That's okay. 'cause ultimately it's our relationships with ourselves that we're really growing here. 

Fer: Yeah. And I think why people have issues with. Letting their partners have some privacy is because they don't trust them. Right. So I can have my privacy and EC can have his privacy because we trust each other.

Fer: We don't need to hear everything to make sure that the other person is not doing something that, or still loves us, that yes still loves us or isn't doing something that we don't agree with, or it doesn't have other intentions that we're not aware of. And I just. Don't have any doubt that he is always going to have my best interest at heart.

Fer: And also it's like what kind 

A: of relationship is that? If you're always worried that the person is going to have thoughts that [00:31:00] undermine your relationship, like that's not a good way to love. 

Fer: Yeah. And I mean, sometimes it is because of the other person and sometimes it's you. Mm-hmm. You know, sometimes you are just insecure.

Fer: Oh yeah. And you need to get over your shit and like, remember that your partner loves you and that you should trust them. And sometimes your partner is a little sketchy and you have reasons not to trust, you know, so. Yeah. And then what's the plan there? 

A: Are you hoping they'll change? Like are what are you working toward that?

A: And I've known a lot of people that have been married a long time. They've just given up on a lot of that. They're like, well, there's one thing about my partner that makes me really unhappy or makes me really insecure or really triggers my childhood trauma, but I just don't talk about it 'cause it's not gonna change.

Fer: But then you're living with that. Well, sometimes I, I do think that, that you have to like, let go of some things. For example, with us, I mean we do like having people over, but if it was up to me, like we'd have people over all the time, but it's like Seth doesn't like to have people 24 7 in the [00:32:00] house, so, you know.

Fer: Things that do affect me. 'cause we live in the same house. Sometimes you just have to like let go. Right? So sometimes it's just like, okay, he's great at all of these things. So I'm just going to stop pushing on this, on this point, but it's about like knowing what's really important and what, yeah. 

A: That I'd say is.

A: Definitely a co. You can make a compromise. What I'm thinking about is like people that have an explosive anger problem or maybe drink too much during social occasions with their family, like there's a lot of stuff that really does bring out some really traumatizing kind of experiences, and yet you just kind of keep pushing them.

A: Aside because you don't wanna cause problems in that marriage. 'cause what if something happens? So yeah, it's that one. I feel like what you're describing, I mean, I think Seth and you are amazing together. I think he's a joyous person who is just full of hospitality. When I was at your home, he definitely is happy in those moments.

A: He's not like. Grumpy in Hi. In his office, right when you [00:33:00] have people over. No, no, no. He 

Fer: definitely enjoys it. We'll, both love to host. I would just host every week. Yeah. He would rather host every month, you know, or something. Yeah, yeah. 

A: That's true. Um, but yeah, he's really a pretty gracious host, I would say.

A: That's pretty nice. Okay, so you and Seth there together and you tell him immediately, look, I'm non-monogamous. This is my deal. He says, I'm monogamous, but oh my gosh. Fair. What I'm feeling with you is real. And so what happens? You're in Burning Man, you live, I don't even know where you live in real life, like how, I know you're in New York.

A: Where is he and how is this working? 

Fer: Yeah, so he's in San Francisco. I'm in New York. He was already thinking of moving to New York, so he moved in with me like nine months in into a relationship, but about a month after Burning Man, two weeks after Burning, and he came to visit me in New York and two weeks after that I went to San Francisco.

Fer: So that's another thing I really liked about. Seth. He wasn't like, oh, I like you, but didn't make any moves. I actually, when I met him, I [00:34:00] was dating someone who was like that, who like, we liked each other, but he would be like, oh yeah, I'll see you when I come to New York. He would never be like, oh, I'll, I'll fly you to where I am so you can see me or, or I'll fly where you are and you know, part of it might.

Fer: Be, could be financial in some situations, but Seth was definitely like, okay, I'm in. Can I come see you in two weeks? Okay, two weeks later, you, you come back. So a, a month after we met, Seth asked me if I'd be his girlfriend. And I was like, oh boy. And I was like, oh, that's so cute. Yes, of course. And then I was like, oh, hold on, wait.

Fer: This means that I cannot have sex with other people. And at that point, I wasn't dating anyone seriously. I mean, there was this guy I just mentioned, but that that was kind of fading. I still had some friends with benefits that I would like occasionally see, like rarely. I wasn't sleeping around too much at that point.

Fer: And he was like, yeah, that's what. That's what that means. And I'm like, okay. And I mean, at that point we had already talked about me wanting to be open and he's, he was [00:35:00] like, listen, I'm open, but I'm open to being open or you being open, but not right now. I want us to first build the foundation of our relationship.

Fer: And I was like, fine, I can deal with that. Yeah. So then we, we got together, uh, I mean, during that time I did go to a couple of play parties. He was okay with that. And he was the one who came up with the idea of doing it in steps and being like, okay, first. The least intimidating step is a play party. So I'm, we're gonna do that.

Fer: So tell 

A: me how your ideas about monogamy have changed. Did you come into this with any preconceived idea about monogamy? You were in a monogamous relationship a couple of times. Like what is your feelings about monogamy now compared to non-monogamy? So that's my first question. And then my second question is more about.

A: What are your feelings about non-monogamy that are different now than when you first started and how are, where are they now? So two-parter. 

Fer: Cool. Cool. So yeah, in terms of monogamy, I think the biggest thing that [00:36:00] has changed is that before I thought that if you really love someone, then you only have eyes for that person.

Fer: And now, at least in my experience, if I'm really into someone and I just met them. I mean, it's not like I only had eyes, I only have eyes for that person because I'm also would said, of course, but there is a period where you're just like infatuated and fixated on that person. And I still believe that that's true, and I still find it really interesting when people are, I.

Fer: I mean, I don't see it that often, but like when people are like, yes, I'm falling in love with two people at the same time. Like that, that sounds, not that it doesn't happen, but I think generally when we're in that new relationship energy, we fixated on that one person. And before I thought like, okay, that means that.

Fer: That's your person and that like, if you rights, if you want to be, 

A: that's what Yes, that's what society tells us. Exactly. 

Fer: If you want to be Disney, someone else Disney, then that means that that's not really your person or something. So that's what I thought, but now I'm, I'm realizing after learning about new relationship energy mm-hmm.

Fer: And [00:37:00] the biological, hormonal aspect of it, that it literally is something that your body does for a period of time and then it fades away. So. I think it can last up to two years or something. But, and I mean, I think that's why we fully opened that relationship also around the two year mark or maybe a little bit before that.

J: Mm. 

Fer: Because, you know, at that point, like the shininess has faded away and I, I still loved said more than ever at that point. But I just didn't feel like that meant that I couldn't, you know, I couldn't see other people. And I think at that point it was also sexual. Right? So I didn't even consider really falling in love.

Fer: Although I was curious, and actually that ties into your other question, my like perspectives about non-monogamy. At first, I was curious about polyamory, hence poly curious. I don't know, just curious to try it out and maybe have two boyfriends or something like that. And then I think I, I realized [00:38:00] with time that for me it was more about the sexual connection because all of the other aspects, the support, the caring, and I mean also the sexual connection I have with Seth.

Fer: As I've mentioned before, Seth is not very sexually exploratory, so for me that's what really like was in it for me to begin with. Some people are the opposite. Some people want the emotional connection and they don't care that much about the sex. Right? But for me. That's what it was. So then I was like, actually I don't wanna do poly.

Fer: I realized how complicated it can be after I had some people that I was dating. Yes. That started dating other people and then, you know, they were kind of monogamous, so then they would either like not know how to deal with the situation or break up with me, or then I would break up with them. Then when I realized like how taxing and like energy consuming it was, I was like, I do not want polyamory.

Fer: And then 

A: I know where are we today. Fair? Yeah, exactly. And 

Fer: then I started [00:39:00] seeing John, who I'm still partners with. And even though we've been long distance and we only see each other like every couple of months or so, and it has always been very sexual. After like a year having sex with the same person going on these trips.

Fer: Right? Because if, if you're long distance, then you have to like plan around it and like have these like whole weekends together. You reach a level of intimacy that just doesn't feel casual anymore, right? No. So then I realized like, okay. I guess, I guess I'm poly, right? Like, then we started calling each other partners and then I'm like, okay, I guess I'm poly.

Fer: I, I still feel like it's a very different type of poly than what a lot of people consider poly because a lot of people, you know, are non-hierarchical and have two partners. Kitchen table. Kitchen table. Mm-hmm. I mean, we're kitchen table. Mm-hmm. Uh, because s and and John get along again, he, he came to my birthday weekend mm-hmm.

Fer: Where Dee my ex was, you know, it was like all my exes. And then this other guy that I used today too was, he was like, all my exes were at my party. So, [00:40:00] yeah, so it is kitchen table in that way. But I've been very clear, uh, to John from the beginning that my priority, Seth, and if Seth says that we can't meet this weekend because that weekend he wants me to be there with him, I'm, I'm going to do that.

Fer: And a lot of people criticize that. And again, I respect that. If non hierarchy is the way you want to do it, go for it. But for me it's definitely like, I have my life with Seth and I'm somewhat in touch with John, but I actually try not to be too much in touch with him. Mm-hmm. Precisely because I, I want to be focused on, on set.

Fer: I don't want that energy drain that still happens, even though, you know, our relationship is more stable than maybe previous relationships I've had. Or, and also more stable than it was at the beginning. 

J: Yeah. 

Fer: So, you know, it's, it's like I see John every couple of months, but otherwise I'm with Seth. Right, right.

Fer: So, so I guess my new, the way in which my. Perspective of non-monogamy has changed. Yeah. Is that, I do feel like, not in every case, but I do feel like if you do it [00:41:00] long enough, even if you wanted to keep things casual, I think you said this actually, all the roads lead to poly. All 

A: roads lead to poly.

Fer: Exactly. 

A: That's what people 

Fer: told us when we 

A: first started. Yeah. 

Fer: And I mean, maybe not, maybe some people really you it though, so I don't know. Fair. Exactly. And mine went from like. I want to be poly too. No, I don't want to be poly too. Yeah. Oh, okay. I guess I'm poly. I guess I'm poly. Um, so, so yeah, I think I've been thinking about that.

Fer: And also, you know, I, I do think that it, it, it is very additive. I'm learning a lot, but it also, it is. An energy expenditure, you know? So I'm very conscious of that and that that's not what everyone wants to do or should be doing. Yeah, it is a choice. 

A: And also novelty speaking, you've spoken about that in the past, in your other podcasts of anyone hasn't listened to all of her podcasts.

A: I recommend you do it. Listen to every single one. Honestly, it's so good. You've talked about you're a novelty seeker, right? And connecting with people is really what? [00:42:00] I don't know, ignites your spirit and now you're in a relationship where you have a primary and a secondary. So what does 

Fer: that look like?

Fer: Yeah, you know, I've also been thinking about that 'cause that part hasn't really gone away. If I meet someone that I'm attracted to, I. I still want to have the choice to like pursue that. Mm-hmm. But I also feel like I've become a lot more selective with who I want to engage. And in a way, even though I've been with John for like, um, you know, over a year and a half, I, I feel like there's still a lot of newness in our relationship because again, we see each other once every couple of months.

Fer: So when you think about it, like we haven't. Seeing each other that much. So, you know, it still feels somewhat new. So I think I'm still getting fed by that, but I also am open to if I meet someone that I connect with to pursue that if, if that feels aligned. But I, I've also realized that the novelty [00:43:00] seeking doesn't necessarily need to be different people.

Fer: It can be different experiences with the same person, you know, and, and I think that that's why. John and I fit well together because we both very much like that. Yeah. To just like have all sorts of experiences, like sexual and otherwise, you know? 

A: Yeah. And that the part you talked about with the energy drain, I had some questions around that.

A: Mm-hmm. Which is now that you have a deeper. More intimate relationship with John. Conflicts come up and conflicts I'm sure come up with Seth. I mean, you're both adorable together and he's a gem of a human being. But I've been in a relationship for 30 years. I know even with the most perfect people, challenges arise.

A: So one is, um, what are some of the challenges that you've had with Seth that, and how have you resolved them and then now you have also challenges with John and there's just one of you. And now you're having challenges, sometimes separately, sometimes ongoing. [00:44:00] How has that been for you? It's no longer just the fun part.

A: Right now you're in deep relationship with two people, so of course it's natural for conflicts to come up. So how are you navigating that? 

Fer: Yeah, you know, I'm actually maybe going to illustrate this with a story which feels a little bit vulnerable, but I, I feel like it really shows kind of like how this all plays out and connects.

Fer: So for my birthday, John came, but I asked him not to act like. Sexual or romantic partners just to act like friends, which that's still allowed for cuddling and massages and things like that because that's kind of how my friends and I relate. But Seth had asked me not to behave like that because in that setting, first of all, as we call my birthday, it's very much like, kind of like our creation together, right?

Fer: Like Seth and I and, and it's very special for me because. It's the time of the year where I get to party with Seth and my friends. And not that [00:45:00] Seth doesn't come out ever, but it, it is rare. I, it's, it's actually normally if I go with that crew, normally John is the one who's there and, and, and I do that more of like the festivals and things like that with him.

Fer: But I really wanted to have that experience with Seth as much as, you know, it would've been nice to like, make out with John. All of those things. So I told that to John and he understood, and you know, I do think that it was a little difficult for him. He shared afterwards that he couldn't act like that with me.

Fer: And, and he was like seeing me acting like that with, with Seth. And actually I had this person that I had dated who came to the party and I was also like cuddling with him. I think John did struggle with, I don't know whether to call it jealousy or some, you know, insecurities, but that actually was really helpful to him because it helped him realize that he was like basing a lot of his self-worth on the attention he gets from women and [00:46:00] just to have to kind of, even if I wasn't being affectionate with him, to feel into his value and, you know, it was also like good for him in a way.

Fer: But anyhow. So that was the agreement. John totally understood it and agreed with to it. And, and to be honest, for me, I think that something that has been helpful to kind of like have boundaries because if we had been like, oh no, you can do whatever you want with John and I like, you can do whatever you want with Seth.

Fer: I think the three of us would've been like, uh, like where do, do we step in? Where, like where do I give them their time? Where do I, you know, so I feel like that's, um, mistakes sometimes people make. I'm not saying my way was right. And again, if you're non hierarchal and you want to have your two partners and like all of you hang together at your home and whatever, go for it.

Fer: I'm just saying it's a lot more complicated that way. So they, this is something that we do to, to help, 

A: especially with a monogamous partner. I was thinking about Seth on the way over here, and I was thinking he has a non-monogamous mindset. Right? Yeah. [00:47:00] Like he doesn't have judgment around believing that monogamy is the best way for two human beings to be, but he's also not practicing non-monogamy right now.

A: So that's also a different, it would be maybe different if he was also had partners there at the party. 

Fer: Right. If you have like, if he had partners, then we could be like, okay, tonight you are with your partner, I'm with my other partner. And then, then, you know, whatever. Yeah. Like we can figure out, but I think it's very complicated when you don't have those.

Fer: Who's your primary, even if not like your primary forever, but 'cause you're primary for the night, I think that can be helpful. Yeah, that's fair. Yeah. Anyhow, so we did that, but then it was difficult for me because. You know, even from John, even from friends, I was getting a lot of attention, like physical attention from people and I wanted that from Seth because Yeah, that's what he said.

Fer: He was like, I don't want you to be with John because this is our thing. And again, this is a very special time of year. 'cause I get to combine my community Burning Man community, whatever we said, which don't always [00:48:00] merge, even though, you know, we met at Burning Man, but at this point said doesn't go out that much.

Fer: So at some point I asked him to be more affectionate with me. I asked Seth, but he was so busy hosting. He did everything. He put up the hot tub and built these covers for the windows to soundproof our basement, and he built the. Code rack that we were going to use for the transformation station where we had costumes and you know, he was just like working nonstop and, and really showing me his love through acts of service.

Fer: But I wanted physical touch and he just didn't do it even though I asked him to. And then on the night of the party, we were going to take a certain substance that makes you feel, feel it really lovey-dovey and. I was like holding everyone so we could take it together with Seth. And then I come up to him and he's like, I already took it.[00:49:00] 

Fer: And I'm like, what? Just felt really disappointed about it. It's a joke. So anyhow, after, first of all, we had a conversation about it. He explained that, you know, he was in host mode, but generally because of his religious upbringing, he's had, um, a difficult time being affectionate with me in public especially.

Fer: And, and that's something that we've worked on and he's gotten so much better. And he's, he's more touchy. Now, but you know, all these things came into play. Obviously. It wasn't that he didn't want to, it just was too much for him to, to remember that I had explicitly asked him what's not 

A: natural. So it's like he has to remember it specifically, and that's a tough thing to do sometimes, especially around different people.

A: And when you're in host mode. 

Fer: Yeah, exactly. So I, I get it. And we talked about it, you know, part of it was also like, I don't get to be in the settings with you very often and I want to do more of that. 'cause I usually get to do that with John. But I, it's also important for me to do that with you. And this weekend we went out, just the two of us for anniversary [00:50:00] and you know, it was really wonderful.

Fer: So, you know, we're working on it. And again, this is, this is some of the ways in which sometimes. Having other partners can show you what your relationship might be missing or whatever. Like, I'm going to these parties and doing these things with John, which I enjoy a lot. And probably it's easier in a way because John is more on that frequency than Seth, but I still want that with Seth too, you know?

Fer: Yes. So anyhow, we had that conversation and then it was a tough one, but you know, we, we resolved it. We decided we were gonna go out together more often and then. That weekend or something. I see. John, him and I had a threesome, which. It was his first threesome. Her first threesome. And in many ways it was wonderful.

Fer: We had a lot of fun. But before the threesome, you know, I don't wanna give too much detail, but basically, uh, we had found ourselves in a situation where I didn't feel very [00:51:00] safe with him. Not because he like broke any boundaries or anything like that. You know, because given neither of us are like the irresponsible person in the relationship, because in my dynamic with Seth, I don't have to be that person because he's that person.

Fer: And John is just more of a risk taker. Uh, go with the flow, uh, like party person. We were in a situation. Where things went wrong and I didn't feel really safe with him, and in that moment, I also recognized that it truly wasn't his fault. I should have been responsible in that situation, but because I'm with a partner that's hyper responsible and that would've never allowed us to get into that situation.

Fer: And I had this tendency of comparing John with Seth. Then I was kind of upset. But actually something that's been really amazing about my relationship with John is that I've also realized how much I've been relying on Seth in [00:52:00] many ways, as I mentioned. It was that which attracted me to him to begin with.

Fer: One of the things that I felt so safe and so secure, and he's always taking care of me, but there's also a shadow side to that, which is that then maybe I'm not as self-reliant and I'm not taking as much care of myself. So being with another partner has actually helped me realize that that's something that I need to work on and that I can't blame it.

Fer: On John and that it wasn't his fault, but in any case, because of the circumstances, I was kind of feeling unsafe. And then we had the treason. Mm-hmm. And then I left and he stayed with her after that. Mm-hmm. And we didn't have that aftercare, which I also realized is really important in threesome situations because I had never had a threesome with a partner.

Fer: So I had never like needed aftercare. I had always just been the third. So it wasn't his fault, but felt like my safe space with him, which has [00:53:00] always been sex. Even when like other things in our relationship, I don't feel so safe. Was shaken. 

A: Yeah. 

Fer: You know? So then I was. Feeling really bad about it because that physical aspect I had felt somewhat deprived of with Seth and then with John, even though we had sex before the threesome and and everything, I also felt like that physical safe space aspect was not there.

Fer: I remember the following week, you know, I was having feelings about it. About both the thing that happened with Seth and the thing that happened with John, and they kind of like both related to my feeling of wanting to feel held physically special. Yeah. And wanting to feel special. Yeah, I guess so. By both.

Fer: Both of hadn't way. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, I think what's interesting too is that. Seth and I generally have a very quick way of resolving things, and with John it just takes a little bit longer because he's a different person. We trigger each other in different ways, [00:54:00] but because Bud said we resolve conflict very quickly, whenever I like get into conflict with John and it's taking us a while or whatever, like I get frustrated.

Fer: I realized that I also need to resolve conflict in different ways with different people. Right? So would say that I, I feel like I can be a lot more like straightforward also because we have a lot more security in our relationship and foundation and all of those things. And with John, I've learned that if I come at him in a very direct way, actually, like after.

Fer: The treason thing happened. I like came to him and I was like, I'm having doubts about, oh boy. Um, why am I even doing this and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And again, it wasn't about the treason, it was like what happened before the treason that made me feel unsafe. And then the T threesome kind of like added to it.

Fer: Yeah. And you know, but I just came at it like. I'm doubting, why am I even doing this? This is so much energy, et cetera. He of course, got defensive because I was making him feel like I was going to break up with him and making him feel insecure in our [00:55:00] connection and in our relationship. So then he got defensive 

A: and then, but when you do that with Seth, how does he respond?

A: Because I'm assuming you're still fair, so there are gonna be times you do that with Seth. 

Fer: Well, I think, I don't really do that with Seth in the same way. I mean, I am more straightforward with him, but I don't say. Oh, I don't know if we should be doing this. Got it. Or like, right, because again, we have a foundation like I have one.

Fer: Right. So that doesn't come up at all. No doubts about our relationship. That doesn't really come up. What does happen is that a feeling comes up and I'm just like straightforward about it, and even if I didn't say it in the best of ways. Mm-hmm. I think Seth is better able to navigate it, even if he does tell me.

Fer: Like it doesn't trigger him. It didn't, it doesn't trigger him. Yeah. Also, because he has a lot more confidence in our relationship. 

J: Mm-hmm. 

Fer: So with John, I like came at it not in the best of ways. Then he got defensive and we have this, this thing we've identified where. That happens. I, I am really straightforward.

Fer: He gets defensive, I get defensive, and then we don't, we don't get anywhere. But then even [00:56:00] eventually, he came around. Mm-hmm. He was, uh, able to like, make space for that and was really able to hear me out and I could tell that he really cares and we were able to resolve it because at the end of the day, we always resolve things.

Fer: And I think that what's been beautiful with him is that I do feel like. He, he also learns a lot from, from the conflicts that we have. Mm-hmm. And we're able to resolve them. And I know he cares about me and he listens to me and, and all of that. So, you know, it's, it, it's different. But for me, what's been hard is to have to filter myself.

Fer: When I, when I tell John how I'm feeling, I'm still being completely honest. But I need to watch myself because I sometimes it's also my insecurities talking, right? When I say like, I don't even know why I'm doing this. I wasn't planning on breaking up with him, but sometimes because I'm insecure about it, he's insecure about it.

Fer: Like, we don't have that foundation that I have with Seth. Yeah. I can't come at it. So, um, straightforward. I need to be a lot more [00:57:00] softer and, and easy with, with the way I bring things up. Yeah. 

A: Okay, fine. I think maybe final question. Yes. Yes. Okay. Is if you could, I mean it's, it's cliche, but I feel like it's really special and I think I have answers for that too, myself.

A: So I wanna ask you, if you could tell yourself at the beginning of this, I know you made the mistakes, you may made, we all made mistakes, but what would you tell Young Fair when she's embarking on this journey for non-monogamy that has right now is looking like polyamory? What advice would you give to her?

A: What, what would you want her to be thinking about? 

Fer: Wow. You know, I asked this question to a guest, right? Like, what would you tell to a public curious person? But for some reason it had never occurred to, to ask myself that question, but something that just popped into into my head, it might not be the thing.

Fer: But I guess one of the things is don't get ahead of yourself. I feel like a lot of us have a tendency to. You know, we meet someone, we start like imagining our future with them and we think like, oh, what if this happens? Or [00:58:00] what if that happens? And we have fears, right? You know, even with my relationship with John, he's been dating someone and they might become primaries.

Fer: I sometimes I'm like, oh, but what happens if there's this festival that I would've gone with him and now he's bringing her? Or what happens if this and that? Like all these insecurities, future tripping. 

J: Mm-hmm. 

Fer: And what I realized in my journey is that, you know, you might be worried about that and then the next day they might break up, or the next day you might break up with them, or the next day it might not be a problem anymore, or the next day another problem is gonna come around the corner, right?

Fer: So there's no point in future tripping. So I guess my advice would be. To just be present and to do what feels right to you in the moment and really listen to your intuition and just go with that and, and tell people as you go on that journey, what it is that you are feeling and the reasons why you feel like you want to do what [00:59:00] you want to do.

Fer: But. Don't have any like preconceptions on, on what that should be or what that will be. Just be present with whatever it is that's inside you and learn to communicate that with other people. 

A: And I will say that is definitely not just about non-monogamy of poly. Oh yes, it is about living and life. And I feel very moved by that because that's definitely something I'm trying to do more in my life now.

A: Mm-hmm. In all aspects of my life. So I think that's a wonderful place to stop. And I just wanna say thank you for this opportunity. It's been fantastic. 

Fer: Thank you so much. This was so much fun. Thank you everyone for listening today, and remember, if you want to hear more about my journey and my process with the breakup, you can go to my patron.

Fer: The link is in the show notes.