Kayla: [00:00:00] We get along great as people and, and play and in sports and as parents. But as far as the erotic landscape between us, the hierarchy of me being in charge and in control and more experienced in every element was definitely eroding my sort of erotic appeal when my natural state is much more submissive.

And so through this experience too, he was now in a position of power to, to kind of simplify it because he is letting me have this exploration. He's giving me this gift, and for the first time in our decade together, I felt this yield towards him where I had never felt that before.

Fer: Hi everyone. I am Fer relationship coach and host of this podcast. Today I have with me Kayla and Carl. I actually connected with Kayla through [00:01:00] Instagram because she had a similar relationship to the one I have with Seth, in which she is non monogamous and her partner was monogamous at the time.

Coincidentally, that weekend we had our interview, Carl, her husband, actually had an encounter with someone and we don't get to talk about that in this first part of the conversation. So if you want to hear all that gossip, you have to wait for part two. Today what we do talk about is how non-monogamy improved their relationship tremendously.

Carl is actually seven years younger than Kayla. They've been together for a while. They have a couple of young kids, and for a long time as it happens to a lot of couples, they were having a little bit of a decline in their sexual [00:02:00] connection, in their communication, and interestingly. Kayla was feeling like she was a more dominant person in the relationship because of the age difference.

Again, seven years older. And when she brought up non-monogamy and started exploring, seeing how Carl was actually really open to that idea, even though he wasn't interested at first, helped Kayla feel like Carl was more dominant, even though he wasn't engaging with other women, the fact that he was okay with Kayla doing that.

Made her see him as more masculine and actually improve their sexual relationship and their communication and many aspects of their dynamic. If you are a man that's open-minded enough to be okay with your partner, being [00:03:00] open, even if you aren't exploring, that to me means that you have a lot of confidence in yourself.

So opening up the relationship. Help Kayla see Carl in that light and also. It just helped introduce more sexual energy into their dynamic. It helped them get out of their mundane lives and feel like they had something to be excited about. And I've spoken about this before, and I don't personally have kids yet, but I've heard from a lot of mothers and fathers that when they enter into non-monogamy, it gives them energy that they can actually use in their interaction with their kids.

They just feel overall better as people. And that can also translate in being better parents. And if you are curious to hear more about this, I'll link, uh, Polly parents miniseries. I did, I think it's three or four episodes, and many of the parents talk about that. And even though [00:04:00] in today's episode we didn't focus on parenthood, Kayla and Carl.

Spoke about how non-monogamy has infused more energy into their relationship and just improved their lives tremendously. Not saying that there hasn't been jealousy or insecurity at all or difficult aspects, but overall they would say that it has been really additive and in part two of our conversation, in addition to talking about what I mentioned previously, which is Carl's first.

Interaction outside of his marriage. We also talk about the jealousy and insecurity that Kayla has felt, not from Carl's new connection interestingly, but actually from Kayla's other partner that's married and how seeing their life has brought up a little bit of envy and what it has revealed in. In terms of what she wants to [00:05:00] work on herself.

So if you want to listen to part two again, you can go to My Patron and you'll find the link for that in the show notes. Before we start, I wanted to let you know that I have a new client special for the month of January. If you're struggling with non-monogamy and feel like you could benefit from some coaching and you've been thinking about reaching out to me.

Now is the time. There's only a few days left in January, but if you reach out to me this month, I will honor that 50% off for new clients. So if you want to find out more about my coaching services and how I might be able to help you, you can also find that link to book a free exploratory call in the show notes.

Okay? I hope that you enjoy this conversation as much as I did. And here is my interview with Kayla and Carl. [00:06:00] Kayla and Carl, so good to have you on Polycurious. I'm so excited to have this conversation.

Kayla: Well, welcome to our bedroom. You've, you've joined us in here with your voice for the last year that you've been a podcast.

I've played while I fold laundry and clean the sheets, scrub the walls, and try to get him to listen to some of what you're saying, like the interviews you've had with Seth and. You know what you've shared about John so far. I was listening on Patreon, so just kinda riding that rollercoaster with you.

Fer: Yeah, it's been so great to connect. You know, I sometimes get people reaching out. I think you reach out through Instagram perhaps.

Kayla: Mm-hmm.

Fer: And I, so sometimes get people reaching out and connect with them, but I am rarely like, okay, yes. Like, let's, let's do this. I wanna have you on the podcast, but I feel like you and I have so much in common.

And, um, not only because you're in like a monopolar relationship, but I think that the, or well. [00:07:00] Kind of, we'll, we'll get to talk more about how that's changing, but, but I think also just like our general kind of approach to relationships. And I can tell that you have grown a lot from the process and are very interested in sharing.

I know you wrote an essay too, um, which maybe we can, you know, link in the show notes as well. But let's go back to the beginning so listeners get to know you a little bit better. So. Tell us about your relationship, how you guys met, how long you've been together, and yeah, just anything that might give us an idea of the beginning of what has become now your exploration into non-monogamy.

Kayla: We've been together for 10 years. We have two children who are two boys who are seven and five. Um, there is an age gap between us, a nearly seven year mm-hmm. Age gap. We've really been through a lot together as a couple. There's been certain areas where we've really deeply struggled. [00:08:00] Um, a lot of it having to do.

Communication. Mm-hmm. Me being on the much higher end Yeah. Of communication and needs and needs for intimacy. Mm-hmm. And needs for novelty and, and needs for truth and depth and, um, and just some fundamental differences between us there. Mm-hmm. Um. Then, you know, philosophically as far as like polyamory or ENM opening the marriage, it had been something we had discussed pretty explicitly.

Explored the ideas. I'd had some,

Carl: yeah. Even, even. Earlier on in our relationship. I mean, it, that was a conversation and neither of us were really interested in, in that at, at the time. And it, it's kind of a bummer, at least for me. Um,

Kayla: yeah,

Carl: uh, it just didn't, sparked my interest. Um,

Kayla: it was like the conversation always led to, like, there was so much fear on like, how, how could this work?

Or there was so much potential for harm. [00:09:00] Um. You know, our sex life had been suffering due to the communication due to, you know, just being in a long-term domestic partnership. Mm-hmm. I think there's a lot of that erotic and really important Yeah. Energy that tends to die, um, as parents and

Carl: Yeah. With a lot of the responsibility,

Kayla: the children, the responsibility and,

Carl: and careers and managing logistics too.

Just all of it.

Kayla: And that was,

Carl: yeah.

Kayla: 99% of our conversations were just in that. Mm-hmm. In, in that. Vain and then I would, you know, I would find myself sort of energized or have my interest peaked by just a kid. It only happened a few times, but a few other men. And, and that energy was really surprising and it was really fun, and it was really intoxicating for me and, and surprising, like, um, at how good it felt, how good it felt to take that home, and how good it felt to have such a friendship.

At the depth between us that I could share [00:10:00] my feelings. That

Carl: you felt comfortable enough to share comfort

Kayla: with you enough that he wasn't like, well, you don't love me.

Carl: You.

Kayla: Yeah.

Carl: And turn it into a big fight, you

Kayla: know, into a big fight. It was always such a beautiful. Easy and bonding conversation to have with him and for a while the permission was sort of enough.

It was satisfying enough for me for when he would say, well, if it's something that is really important to you, if it's a feeling that doesn't go away, like I don't see why we can't continue to discuss it or explore it. And that always felt so good.

Fer: So when was the first time you. Came home and were like, Hey, I feel attracted to someone.

Or you know, was it like, Hey, can I act on it? Or was it just like, Hey, I saw this man and I found him hot and that was it. How did that evolve?

Kayla: The very, very first time,

Carl: the first time it was on my radar was when you came back from Alaska. That trip in Alaska. That one really? Um.

Kayla: I, yeah. So after we had children [00:11:00] and, you know, just went deep and we had two kids pretty much back to back.

We had, it was COVID, there was some financial crisis that happened between us. Mm-hmm. I mean, we, I always loved Carl. We had such a good relationship and friendship, but, you know, the business aspect of our life was

Carl: mm-hmm.

Kayla: Was suffering. And, and so yeah,

Carl: the business and the business communication communic it, it was just not transparent enough and not.

Yeah. Do you have a

Fer: business together?

Kayla: Well, he is a business. I have a business. We're both self-employed, but there, there was just some, we don't need to give in the weeds of it, I suppose, but you know, just the things that happen in life and long-term partnerships. So there was a lot of grief. There was a lot of, it was a lot of work.

Carl: And this missed opportunities too. There was some, yeah.

Kayla: Yeah. And so I used to live in Alaska and it was a really, um, in Fairbanks, it was a really beautiful, really important season of my life. I went back to do some, some climbing and some adventuring. And I have a friend who lives in tna who is, um, [00:12:00] just this great, really dynamic person who, there was some flirtation there, there's some history between us.

Um, and I had no sex drive at all. No sex drive, no interest. I mean, I was just,

Carl: mm-hmm.

Kayla: Being crushed by, by our life and just. Everything, um, that we had gone through and in that season and for the first time in probably four years mm-hmm. I, this guy made it pretty clear that he wanted to sleep with me and he had a pretty intense energy and I was gassed over it.

Like, I forgot what it felt like to, to be the lusted after, to lust after someone to have that. Just radiating intense energy and how good it feels and how alive and inspired and, um, excited it makes you feel about your life. I hadn't felt that way in so long. Um, nothing came from it because of course, you know, I'm not, I'm not gonna.

Have an affair. I'm

Carl: not been okay with that.

Kayla: And so this was like four or five [00:13:00] years ago. But he was the very first person that, of course, I ran home and told, I was like, I was excited to share that. Like, oh my God, I'm not dead. I'm, and that was the feeling in my body. I'm not dead. I didn't have, and it was exciting for

Carl: me too, because you know, you were just in a rut really.

Yeah.

Kayla: And so it was to get those feelings back to, to get that sort of lost to, and then to reconnect with the friendship. To be able to share that and, and, and have this conversation with my husband was such a, was such a good experience. But then the feeling went away. You know, we went back into our life.

I didn't think about this person ever again. It was just a good experience to kind of. Process that, those feelings. And then we went back to sort of the Walking Dead, you know, here sexually and energetically and enthusiastically, um, because that's what you do. You just stay in the margins as parents and people, and you.

Get up at the same time and you make the same foods and you go to bed and that's what you're supposed to be doing [00:14:00] as a married couple. Mm-hmm. Um, and then from there, there was one other person, maybe it was even like a year later, uh, it was a person at my gym who sort of cut my attention.

Carl: Mm-hmm.

Kayla: And he, he is, um, just the greatest guy.

He is a good looking guy. And, and again, it was a surprise to have this erotic intense energy. Just radiate through me. 'cause I had not felt any interest in sex or any interest or any energy in that part of my life at all. And it was another conversation that we had about this specific person and it kind of turned into an inside joke for a while.

He'd say, you know, I'll go to the gym and flirt with your boyfriend and come back in a better mood. And yeah, and that was always sort of fun, playfulness. Between us. Um, and then maybe it was like almost a year later, uh, I have a friend, uh, from Arizona who was a really sweet [00:15:00] friend. I met on a, a trip to Ecuador the year prior, and we had really bonded and.

Her husband and her, um, decided to open their marriage. They're, they're a little bit more wild. At least that was my impression at the time. They felt really wild.

Carl: Yeah, definitely, definitely.

Kayla: And, uh, she had come to, to Minneapolis to visit, um, and I know her husband, you know, I, I'd seen him and I found him very attractive and intelligent, but it didn't register.

I wasn't like, attracted to him because. He's someone else's husband, and that's just not at all on my radar. And so her and I had gone on a walk and she, uh, sort of propositions me with like, I just wanna let you know, my husband thinks you're really cute. He thinks you're really interesting. And of like anyone I know, I think you and him would actually be a, a great match like intellectually.

Carl: Mm-hmm.

Kayla: Energetically. Um, and he is curious about you. It seems like [00:16:00] you're open-minded. It seems like your relationship is, um, able to withstand something like this. If, if you're interested, he would love to get to know you. I was floored. I mean, I'd never been sort of propositioned for anything like that, but as me, just as a, you know, as a person, I'm, I'm, the answer is typically yes for me, just because I'm so curious.

I'm so sort of appealed to the taboo, to novelty, to new experiences. Um, so of course we had a conversation about it and it was just a slow. A slow evolution from there where her husband reached out and he is, um, you know, trying to get to know me. And I'd never like, yeah, it was casually sort of friendly at first, but that was thrilling because I had never engaged, it'd been almost a decade, you know, since I'd engaged with a, a man and in that way where it was pretty clear that he was a person who [00:17:00] wanted to sleep with me, who thought I was attractive.

Um, it was really sort of, um. Casual and, and, and not anything explicit initially, but you know, this buildup to, to more, and I, I kept pulling him, filling him in a little bit. It was so, so exciting. And I have never experienced anything like that in my life. I'd never like sexted with anyone in my life.

Carl: Yeah.

And it translated really well for us. Um, yeah,

Kayla: it, it definitely, um. Increase the energy in the house. I mean, yes. Increase my, it did my, my gratitude for him for sure. Just giving me this gift and it was so fun. And at the time it felt really safe because we had sort of this,

Carl: a little bit of a distance.

Kayla: Well, we had an arbitrary, it feels arbitrary now.

Yeah. We had a rule or a a, a framework that, oh, this could be perfect that he doesn't live in this state. You know? It would be really secure because it'd be [00:18:00] somebody I would see. You know, once every two months or something for a long weekend, it's totally incubated from our life, and he is married. So that felt really like a safe and important framework, uh, for us.

So it, it just felt like the perfect situation and it was a really good, it was a really good experience for me and for, for us. And

Carl: yeah, and, and at the time, uh, you know, Kailin and I also talked, talked about like, you know, um. Uh, you know, exchanging between the two, you know, the two of us, you know, basically sharing partners.

Kayla: You, you and her.

Carl: Yeah. Oh yeah. You remember that? Those conversations we had? Yeah. Yeah,

Kayla: yeah.

Carl: Um, and at the time I wasn't interested at all. I had no interest in pursuing that in any way. Mm-hmm. Um. Yeah.

Kayla: Which was funny because she was super hot.

Carl: Yeah.

Kayla: Or she still is. She's super hot. Yeah. She's a really, a beautiful person and was interested

Carl: mm-hmm.

Kayla: In, in that exchange. But Carl's [00:19:00] also pretty picky. I mean, this woman is, she's very beautiful, but she has sort of. Chaotic.

Carl: She was too chaotic. I just didn't know. Like, I was like, no, I don't think you really know what you want. And like, I just, I didn't feel good. Uh, I didn't feel good engaging with her.

Kayla: And he was like, what would we have in common?

She doesn't even snowboard.

Carl: Well, what I dunno. And, um,

Kayla: yeah,

Carl: because I look for a lot of things in a partner, you know, it's, it's more than. There's a lot of depth to, to a partnership.

Fer: Yeah.

Carl: Um, for it to be something that's worth

Kayla: attraction is spending your time Yeah. Yeah. Is more

Carl: Yeah. It's complex.

Kayla: Yeah.

Complex and just being hot.

Fer: Yeah. Yeah. And I do want to hear more about that because as I mentioned before we started recording, I think a lot of people have. Questions when you hear that the man is the one that's like, I don't really care to date other people. 'cause there's this [00:20:00] idea, I mean, I hear it all the time.

I heard it the other day, I don't even remember. Oh, I think I was doing a exploratory call for coaching, and these potential clients were like, one of them was like, you know, I'm a man. You know how my men say that? Like I'm a man saying meaning like. You know, of course I'm going to want to have sex with other people in that context and.

It's, you know, it's true that that's what, it's more common, but I do think a lot of it has to do with society because it's a lot more acceptable to say that as a man, that to be like, I'm a woman, I'm a slut. You know? Like that's not, that's not really how people talk, but that doesn't mean that that's not how we feel.

So I do want to hear, um. You know about your reasons not to want that, but before you mentioned something that I think it's important to call out, which is the. Added benefit that you get, even though you are, uh, or you were monogamous. Mm-hmm. You would [00:21:00] still get the benefit of Kayla being non monogamous because she would bring, bring back that energy into the relationship.

And I think you were able to identify that really quickly and not only identify that, but even be engaged in that for, for example. Seth identifies that when I'm talking to other people or I have another partner or whatever that I like, I come back and I bring that energy back. But he would never be like, oh, you know, go flirt with your boyfriend at the gym.

Or, oh, what did he say? Or, you know, kind of like be a little bit more interested and curious in that play. So I'm just curious to hear Carl. Why you think you had that openness? Because I think most men would just be like, oh, my wife is telling me that she was attracted to someone else. Like that means that there's something wrong with me, that I'm not attractive, that this and that.

And you were like, oh yeah, she can have her phone or she can be attracted to other people. Oh, [00:22:00] and look at her. She's like, all you know, excited and now we can have amazing sex together and let's leverage this opportunity as opposed to. No, let's shut this down because this means that there's something wrong with me or, um, she doesn't love me or whatever, you know?

Carl: Yeah. Well, the way Kayla communicates is just amazing, so I wasn't worried about. Her necessarily hiding anything or trying to sneak around or, you know, pulling the wool over my eyes. And, uh, we, we both wanted to continue this relationship, so that was like the underlying core of it. And, um, I just, I don't feel threatened by other partners or other men.

Um, in any way. And, uh, and just the, the couple like soft, I don't know if I'd call 'em soft launches, but the couple interactions that had happened before we entered into the full, like dating or [00:23:00] boyfriend opening. Yeah, yeah. The full opening of the relationship. I just didn't see any threat

Kayla: and we, I, I sort of contextualized it too, and, and not to, not to sell or, uh.

Particularly not to be manipulative. And I, I, I always wanna really be sure that it's like I'm, I'm just being as fair and truthful as possible while being accurate. But I said, you, you know, it's, having these good experiences are not a, a threat to him. I like, and

Carl: it's, and it's enriching our life. And I, and I saw that before we opened the relationship.

It was a, it was an immediate change in libido.

Kayla: Mm-hmm.

Carl: Um, not so much with that first experience in Alaska kind of. Um, we were still kind of figuring it out and it, and it kind of wore off quickly because there was, you know, it was basically once she got back, there was not much contact, um mm-hmm. Between that person and, and, and Kayla, the Arizona couple that was more ongoing.

It went, it went on for a few weeks [00:24:00] and, um. You know, Kayla would check in often and see how I felt. If I was comfortable with it, how much should I be sharing. You know, there was just a lot of questions and back and forth and, um, just, uh. She was able to make me feel comfortable and if I asked a question, she would tell it truthfully.

And, um, there was just, there was no secrets. 'cause at the end of the day, at the end of, you know, our existence, it's, it's going to be. You know, and what also, I kinda liked it, it didn't have to be black and white, and it was like, Hey, if you feel uncomfortable, like let's put, put a pause to it. We can, you know, reapproach it and try to find a different way to, to connect and drum up this energy that, that Kayla was just really, really lacking and struggling to find.

Kayla: Mm-hmm.

Carl: Um,

Kayla: and I think that like. I, and with his support have done a really good job at being very, very, very intentional. And that's [00:25:00] shown up throughout our relationship and throughout our life together and through this process of opening the marriage of being sure I, I'm not just doing this because it feels good and as fun as an exciting, but it's, it's meeting an overall bigger goal.

Mm-hmm. Um. Of, of making me more energized and about my life and about my relationship and, and giving me more energy. And,

Carl: and not just for yourself. It, it's, it's with a goal of the relationship in mind. Mm-hmm. Is the, is the key to all that. Mm-hmm. It's like, yeah.

Kayla: Yeah. Yeah. And it was, it was just so fun, like waking up to these thrilling texts of this very attractive, great guy who was like, oh, you're so fucking hot.

And he would say something just wildly dirty. And it was so crazy. 'cause I just, I, if you would've told me a year earlier, I would've not believed you. Yeah. That I loved it. And then I just found myself bouncing around, flipping pancakes and Scrubbing tile.

Fer: Yeah.

Kayla: Know what, where I was just [00:26:00] absolutely suffocating in the cage of my life becoming smaller and smaller and smaller.

You know, I'd see the kids' messes and I'd go from like ripping my hair out to like, cute. Isn't that Yeah. Like crushing my workouts at the gym and I'm like, oh my God. Erotic energy in this type of. Inspiration is, is absolutely a life force. Yeah. This is life.

Carl: And it was really illuminating for you.

Kayla: Life changing.

Life changing for me. Yeah. Uh, yeah. And 'cause we were sort of on the edge between us. Mm-hmm. Um, in a lot of ways we had this great, beautiful friendship, but our intimate life was really struggling. Yeah. Really suffering. And, and I was pretty dedicated to, um. To not letting the relationship die in that way.

Fer: Yeah. And it can be so additive, as you're saying to your family life. Um, when I did the, um, poly parents miniseries, that's one of the things that stood out for me, how especially women were [00:27:00] like, I have an opportunity now to not just be a mother or a wife. Like now I'm a sexy motherfucker. You know what I mean?

It's like. Very good for everyone involved because as, as we've talked about it also then improve your sexual life, your, the way that you are mothering, like all these things. But just going back to what Carl, you were saying, I think that the reason why it sounds like you were so open to exploring this is because of that trust, right, that you have in Kayla.

Right. And I think it's ly because of what you're talking about. Of like just being fully transparent and I feel identified with that. One of the things that Seth has said is, is like he could not do an open relationship with anyone, but I'm just so transparent and so honest, and I will always tell him how I feel that he knows that I'm not going to be sneaking around or having an intention to leave him or anything like that without.

Him [00:28:00] knowing, right? Like he knows that he'll be there every step of the way. And then the other thing that I think is also very important that I also have with Seth is that I'm always like, if you feel like we need to stop, we'll stop. You know? And like you have that reassurance that like, I'm not going to do anything that feels like wrong to you.

And I think that's important because a lot of people. Don't believe in that. Like don't believe in Vito power, and I don't believe in Vito power when it comes to like, oh, you can't date this like specific person, but they don't believe on like their partner limiting their freedom or their autonomy or whatever.

And that's fine if that's your philosophy and that's how you want to go about things. But I do think it helps a lot when you know that. Your partner will stop if you want to stop. You know? Um, and I think that creates that security that allows you to be like, okay, go flirt with this person at the gym.

But, um, anyhow, so tell me how, what happened with this Arizona couple? [00:29:00] 

Kayla: Um,

Carl: honestly, exactly what I thought would happen happen.

Kayla: No,

Carl: he's uh, it's like a little too chaotic. I dunno. They were just saying,

Kayla: you know, they, they were opening their marriage, um, in an effort to, to sort of save it and, and, and, and not that I, that can't work. Um, he, he was a, a liar and a cheater in other. You know, really hurtful ways, um, and her dating experiences, like they, they were open to really chaotic relationships.

Um, me not, not being appealed or a part of that at all. In, in Arizona, the friendship between her and I, which. Has been intact and it, I'm really proud of, you know, I feel good and am really proud of, of my role and holding to two agreements. Um, but it just didn't work out. He wasn't a, he wasn't a great guy and he was pretty hurtful to her.

And, and they've sensed, um, are going through a divorce now. And, [00:30:00] um, you know, my heart is broken for her and it's, it's too bad. Um, so him and I didn't end up having sex or, or meeting up. Which, um, was great because, you know, after I discovered more about him as a person, you know, I'm, I'm really glad to have avoided inviting that type of chaos.

Chaos, yeah. Um, and, um, you know, manipulative capacity mm-hmm. Into my life. It was too bad, but it was, it was such a good experience for us. Um, and from there, actually, you know, the person at the gym that I was speaking about the year prior that I had developed a friendship with and was one of, I think two people who really gave me the, the zoomies as far as being attracted and surprised, um, him and I had.

Continued to develop a really sincere friendship. Um, and while I was initially exploring this first relationship with my [00:31:00] friend's husband, um, I had actually sought out the mentorship of this person from the gym, um, because he had been divorced. He was in a sexless marriage for I think six or seven years, and he's just the greatest person.

He's just a nice person, but he is like sort of an alpha male type. So I thought this brings the perfect perspective of somebody who's been divorced, somebody who understands how lack of intimacy mm-hmm. Uh, affects you as a person and is sort of a, you know, a good looking top tier, has that masculine guy perspective,

Carl: but also able to reflect on,

Kayla: but reflective,

Carl: reflective, not just stuck in one way and not open to new ideas or viewpoints.

Kayla: Um, and, and, and he ended up being my first. Real time partner here in, in Minnesota where we live, um, as that friendship and, and then the attraction, and of course having these intimate conversations about sex and sexting and. With somebody, you have an [00:32:00] attraction. And then I have had the conversation with Carl, um, weeks before having the conversation with this gentleman that like, I, I, I think I wanna explore this.

I think this feels really safe. I, I think he feels like the right person for this. Like, can you trust me? To just make this decision of like when and where and can it be okay also to essentially not, I, I use the word interrogate, but like if I were to go like, have lunch or meet him or go out for cocktails, like.

Does it feel comfortable for me to come home and you not to be like, not that I think you would, but to be like, oh, did you fuck him? You know, because I just, it's such a big

Carl: scary, you asked for, you asked for space, for space to explore this for some, um, privacy. Definitely in the beginning.

Kayla: In the beginning.

Carl: Um, because you didn't know how comfort, comfortable you would feel sharing those details with me. And, uh, I really didn't know how comfortable I would feel hearing about the details. Um, of, and I, of with my wife, with another man. You know, [00:33:00] it's, um,

Kayla: and I didn't want, I didn't want an opportunity to create shame and for that shame to sort of translate in resentment towards him because

Carl: mm-hmm.

Kayla: Even though it, it's nothing he's doing, but. I was, I was worried that if I felt any shame or if I felt I was being interrogated, even though I have his permission, or if he ended up taking away from this fun, good, sexy experience, I worried that even quietly though logically it doesn't make sense, I'd, I'd have some resentment towards him.

And I, I didn't want more opportunity to sort of have this unique resentment that can just easily occur in long-term partnerships and relationships. And I said, does that feel. Good for you. Um, or, or, okay. At least maybe it's not gonna feel good, right?

Carl: Yeah. And I, and I framed it like I, and I'm not, I I, it didn't feel great to me at first for sure.

Fer: What, what specifically didn't feel great? Not knowing when and where Yeah. [00:34:00] How she was going to have sex with him.

Carl: Yeah. The unknowns. And then also just the, the physical act of it. Um, because, uh, it, it's just the way I have thought for so long a, about this type of thing. About, about sex and sex with other people.

Um, I don't, I don't know if it's worth sharing, but, um, Kayla Kayla's the only one I had ever been with. Um, as far as sexual partners. So, um, 'cause I thought it was, you know, I thought I found it to be a really special thing to share, like to, I don't know if it was a gift or to share, but, um, to, to save yourself for somebody and because I mean, it's something you can only give once.

Um, and I thought that was kinda special.

Fer: So I'm assuming you come from a religious background?

Carl: Not necessarily. No.

Fer: No.

Carl: I, I, I guess I don't know where that thought came from, but, um, [00:35:00] um, truly that's how I thought for, for a long time, just being really careful about choosing, uh, the relationship you're in.

Like if, if I don't see myself being with that person, um, for the rest of my life, it's not worth pursuing and engaging. Um, even just to find out, um. That's how, that's how I thought for it.

Fer: Yeah. No, and I'm, and I think that there's something beautiful about that way of thinking, and probably also is one of the reasons why you've been more hesitant to connect with other people because you even as, as you've, you know, opened up the marriage and Kayla has been exploring and all of that.

Because for you, and I feel like perhaps for set as well, it's like something that's not. So casual. Right. And I think that that's just a way of seeing sex and a way of like understanding relationships. I can very much be like, there's [00:36:00] sex, there's romance, there's friendship. Mm-hmm. And there can be friendship and romance or friendship and sex or sex and romance or, you know, there's like different combinations and different ways in, in which I can relate.

And I think other people are like, sex equals romance and, and romances equals. To some degree exclusivity or having something very special about that relationship or something like that. And I think that's a beautiful way of thinking about it. You know, I think the issue becomes when that way of thinking about it is imposed.

That's why I ask like. You know, are you religious? Right? Because that's what church says. Mm-hmm. Right? Like you have to save yourself until marriage and you should only be one person because this, this really special thing and your virginity is a flower. And you know, all these like ideas that might be ideas that you, you can.

Subscribe to and, and or not even subscribe to, but, but, [00:37:00] um, you know, believe in. But for some other people it might make no sense at all. So I think that that's where it becomes complicated. But so, so, so when did you guys like get together? 'cause you said you've been together for 10 years, so then you had your first sexual experience.

I mean, I don't know how old you are now, but you probably had your sexual experience late.

Carl: Uh, yeah, in a sense late. Yeah. Yeah. Um, I think I was 23 when, uh, we first got together and, um, yeah, it was, it was really nice.

Oh,

Fer: Kayla, were you a virgin too when you had sex with, with Kyle?

Kayla: I was busy.

Carl: The exact opposite.

Kayla: We, we have an age gap between us.

Carl: Mm-hmm. Yeah. So there's seven years difference.

Kayla: Yeah. There's seven years [00:38:00] between us, and so we have such a good friendship, but are also sort of a mismatch as far as like 10 years ago, even my own friends at the time could not believe that we were getting together because we're just, um.

As far as the seasons in our life and personalities we're so different, but it just worked. We, we get along, we felt

Carl: it, felt really comfortable with you.

Kayla: Yeah.

Carl: Right away. And I thought you were really pretty.

Fer: So Carol was 23 and you were what age?

Carl: 29 going on 30. And that's, that's where we kind of moved into.

Uh, I at least I was moving slow in the back of my mind. I'm like, well, she is, um, this certain age, um. Yeah. You know,

Kayla: it just, it just, it just evolved. Yeah. It just evolved. It sort of surprised both of us, but

Carl: yeah.

Kayla: And that was maybe an interesting obstacle as well for us in, in the relationship because I didn't necessarily have an appreciation for that [00:39:00] pedestal.

Mm-hmm. You know, as far as sex and intimacy goes. Uh, and there's a little bit of, um. I No, it, it was, there's a little bit of a, of an appeal of, of sharing in the same level of, of experience in, in life, and, and I think that that was some of the energy I was missing is not being the one. In charge of everything.

The one more experienced in business and money and relationships and communication. That was becoming the hierarchy between us. That was, yeah,

Carl: it was a really hard dynamic

Kayla: leading, leading to a lot of, a lot of problems is me being more sort of well versed and in control in every department, and it was an energy that I was.

Missing that translates, at least for me, really well in an erotic way, is being more submissive. And that was, that was eroding us where there's this beautiful friendship, we get along great as people and um, you know, in play and in sports and as parents. But [00:40:00] as far as the erotic landscape between us, the hierarchy of me being in charge and in control and more experienced in every element was definitely eroding my.

My sort of erotic appeal when my natural state is much more submissive. And, and that was something that needed to change between us. And so through this experience too, he was now in a position of power to, to kind of simplify it because he is letting me have this. Exploration. He's giving me this gift.

And for the first time in our decade together, I felt this yield towards him where I had never felt that before. I had never felt one. This like overwhelming gratitude for like, I, I cannot believe that you are mature enough to, to handle this, and I can't believe that you're kind of strong enough in your.

Masculinity and you have so little ego that [00:41:00] like you, you truly, I, through the experience with the person in Arizona, I always knew Carl loved me so much, and in some ways that was kind of a pressure for me. But this reframed everything of like, he loves me so much and he just wants me to be happy and free and thriving no matter what.

And it completely, totally elevated him, in my view, in such a significant and important way. And that was the biggest, that was the biggest surprise in the, in the change of landscape between us. Not only did I get to access these kind of fun, sexy, energizing experiences and interactions, but it, it totally elevated him and my view and that that really needed to occur between him and I.

Uh, the, the most important part was definitely the, the change in, in the hierarchy of him being sort of. In a position of power [00:42:00] to give me this, this gift definitely made him sort of feel three inches taller and, and, and bigger. And, and I, I was truly able to feel his love for me. And so I've also felt a lot more comfortable sharing deeper parts of myself and my sexuality with him and then seeing him, um, just.

Totally being able to withstand things that most men would be, their ego would be completely crushed by. Um, just makes me much more grateful and much more appealed and much more soft. And that translates definitely sexually bet between us for sure. Um, the playfulness has, mm-hmm. Increased. So much. Yes.

Like sort of the, the friendship and the, the, the goofing off and, and, um, the flirtation between us has increased quite a bit and that's been really, really, it's

Carl: been really nice.

Kayla: Rewarding. Yeah. Yeah.

Fer: Yeah. That's [00:43:00] fascinating. And I remember we discussed this a little bit when we were chatting about having this interview.

How. Some people's view of masculinity is the man that doesn't let his quote unquote woman have sex with other people because he is the only one that you know, owns her or whatever. That's one view of masculinity. My view on of masculinity, which sounds like it's also your view, is a man who's so, so confident in himself.

And loves you so much and cares so much for you to be who you truly want to be that. Allows the space for you to go and explore and all of that and support you through that. And, you know, to me, like that's masculinity. You know, I find Seth like so masculine. Like he, he's very, he's got some really feminine traits in some ways, but to me, like I, I like joke and tell him like, he's the only real man I've ever met.

You know, because I [00:44:00] feel like that's what true masculinity is, to be like confident in yourself and to. Want your partner to live their best lives and, and support them through that and, and be that, that source of support. So it's really interesting that you're saying I, I'm more submissive sexually.

Mm-hmm. And him. Being okay with me having sex with other people. Mm-hmm. Made him more masculine, made him more dominant in my view. Even though some people might say that it's the opposite, right? Like, for some people it's like, that's, that's the contrary, like the man, and I mean, I get comments on this. I have a picture on my Instagram of seven I, and I talk about our relationship and it's like some people come in like, Seth, be a man.

Come on. Uh, you know, like. Uh, you're a cock or whatever, you know, like things that, nothing wrong if he was actually, I wish he was, but, but, but you know, like those comments that just [00:45:00] show how. People don't really get what being like a true masculine man is, at least in my views. And tell me a little bit more, because you kind of mentioned at some point that jealousy hasn't really been much of a thing, but I imagine it was an adjustment for Kayla to go from, oh yeah.

Maybe she'll have a fling with someone every couple of months and you know, that will be it. And then she'll come back to, to our lives too. The man that she sees at the gym, you know, regularly, almost every day. Now it's her partner, or, I don't know if you would, you called him your partner at that point, but how was that at the beginning?

Did you experience any jealousy? How was that adjustment to your relationship?

Carl: Yeah, there was a little bit of underlying jealousy. You know, my partner is spending time with another man. The hardest part was getting over the, the physical act for me. I think as far as the jealousy goes, you know, in [00:46:00] the back of your mind there's always that, like, I, I don't know if you'd call it primitive or primal, um, way of thinking like, oh, what if he is, you know, bigger, better, and stronger than me?

Is that gonna. Make her view me as less of a person. Mm-hmm. And, uh, that was one of the, one of the hurdles to just kind of get over and get used to as this kind of progressed. But I, I, I found it, I easier to process and really almost encourage and be okay with as it progressed.

Fer: Any tips that you have for.

Other men who might, you know, in theory, really want their partners to go and explore. But when it comes down to it, they just have a physical reaction. Because, you know, even men who also are interested in exploring non-monogamy, it's very common for [00:47:00] women to just have much more access to dates and things and prospects, et cetera.

So I think a lot of men struggle with that of, Hey, I'm not. Getting any, you know, and then there, there she is with a thousand offers to do fun things and, you know, have fun experiences. And I, I see a lot of men struggling with that. So any advice or anything that was kept helpful for you in that process?

Carl: Well, it, it was helpful to know that I. Also had the same freedom that Kayla had you. You just have to know that at the end of the day, it's you and your wife and it's all in pursuit of benefiting your, our relationship at the end of the day. And that was really helpful and have helped me feel secure, um, in this journey.

Um, and as far as. The level of access. I mean, life's just not fair. Women will, I mean, they, women just have more access [00:48:00] to partners and it's ultimately easier than, than men pursuing women. Um, it seems, and uh, like, I don't know if. It's hard to explain, but it, it's almost like a, a status symbol too. The dynamics of what women are looking for in men and what men are looking for in women is different.

Like if you're a successful male and you have a good job and you have, you know, your financial life in order, that's much more appealing to women. And, um, you know, men, men aren't necessarily interested or appealed to that. Similar dynamic, like if she's well established, if she has her finances in order, that doesn't seem to be like as much of a deciding factor for Matt.

Um, and their partner choices.

Kayla: And I mean, and for the record, I was like, for the record, encouraging him and

Carl: Yeah, you were like, I you were, and I, like, I had set him

Kayla: up an account on field [00:49:00] with his permission. 'cause he was like, I don't have time for this,

Carl: Carl.

Kayla: I, I really didn't. Carl runs a, uh. Successful contracting business here.

He's very, very busi busy. His, his business is doing really well right now, and, and that's bringing him a lot of satisfaction. Um, so he is like, just, I truly don't have time for it. Mm-hmm. I don't have any interest in whining and dining or girl I. Barely of any time to take you on a date. He's like, you're pissed at me half the time because I I'm not taking you out.

Yeah. And, and that's my appeal is, has been much, much less about sex and it's been much more like the novel dates, the sort of being luted and pursued after the, um, the more relational and intimacy engagements. This sort of growth and reflection that comes like, it's much less about sex for me. He is like, would I like to sleep with a some hot girl?

Yeah. But like, I don't want, and you know, the guys that I've seen, they have like [00:50:00] tech jobs. He is like, am I gonna be sending dick pics on somebody's roof? Like, I don't have time for this. Yeah. He is like, it's just, it's not me. That's not my thing. I don't wanna mm-hmm. Be texting girls. I don't, I know what women are like, I know what the level of engagement most women want.

Mm-hmm. And he's like, I don't have time for it. It's just not something that's what he reporting.

Carl: And if, and if I had time, it's like I have other hobbies I'd like to pursue instead of that, um, you know, I'd rather go biking or go swimming or some, something along those lines. And it's, it just seemed like a production to engage with another partner.

Kayla: Mm-hmm. When. When the production was more of an appeal for, for me mm-hmm. Than it was

Fer: for you. Well, also I think because of the gender role, sometimes you don't need to do the production, right? Like, not always. I mean, I, I'm the type that likes to plan dates and, and stuff too, but for women it's a lot easier to be like, oh yeah, you know, like, this guy will invite me out, will pay for [00:51:00] dinner.

And, and then for, for you Carlos, it's like, oh, now I have to think. Of like what to do for the day. Now I have to pay for the, again, like this is a gross, I mean, it's just dynamic, generalization dynamic, but like the gender dynamics is like, it's a lot easier for women to just say yes. To an experience then, like for a man to like plan the experience or pursue the woman or whatever, like send the likes on swipe for hours to get, to get a little like on the dating apps, you know, as opposed to women just like waiting to be pink on, on field and have tons of options, right?

Mm-hmm. But anyhow, I do want to. Keep going on the story. So what happened with this, uh, gym partner that you had?

Kayla: It's been great. Uh, we still are very good friends, but he is still aligns with monogamy and he, you know, had reported developing strong feelings for me and it creating more of a deficit in his life than, than satisfying sort of accessing.[00:52:00] 

The intimacy between us, which continues to exist. We're still very good friends. We're in constant contact. Um, but it was becoming harder and harder for him to have an intimate relationship with me and to manage his, his feelings. Um, and that was a surprise for him. That was a new experience for me to navigate.

Uh, but we continue to be great friends and since then I have met another person. Was also married and more well-versed in non-monogamy. And that has been ongoing for about eight or nine months now and been going really, really well. It's come with its own sort of evolution and, um, figuring out the agreements of how to make this relationship beneficial and energetic between the both of us.

Um, but that's been going great. I mean, really it hasn't been. Caused any uh, issues. It's been really rewarding. And I continue to maintain a friendship with the guy at the gym. And it's kind of fun. I mean, there's still this obvious chemistry [00:53:00] between us and this flirtation, which is fun. And it's fun to play with that energy.

And there will always, I think, be something between us, but he's pursuing other relationships and I would say I'm his number one cheerleader for. In total sincerity. And so he asked me dating advice and then we flirt a little bit 'cause we just sort of can't help it. But we are, we are no longer intimate for the last, you know, several months I'd say.

Fer: You know, I think that's very mature of him to be like, I really like you and this is creating a barrier for me to find what I want and connect with other women. I think what I see a lot is. People who are monogamous, dating people who are in partnerships like you are, and instead of recognizing that it's stopping them from finding their own thing, they just continue doing it.

You know, I was actually even reflecting it with, with [00:54:00] John my, um, I guess ex partner that, you know, was my secondary partner. I don't think I fully like realized how. Him being with me was also keeping him from finding, and I mean, I. I talked to him about it and I, that was a concern that I had, but he kept saying that that wasn't a thing.

But then when it comes down to it, if you're putting energy on someone, that's energy, you're taking away from potentially someone else. Right. And and I think a lot of people get stuck in that dynamic. And it can be tricky when you are a partner and you're dating someone who's monogamous or you're monogamous and you're dating someone with a partner.

So I think that when you date someone that also has a partner, there's like a really nice balance that makes it a lot more likely to be a long-term thing. And that's something that I've been reflecting on because I've only dated single men, you know, so far in, in my exploration. And I would love to date someone that also had a partner.

So there was [00:55:00] more of an understanding, more of a balance there, less of a concern of that person putting too much energy on me when I can't reciprocate in that way and I can't give them what they want. So yeah, maybe tell us a little bit more about this. New I I am assuming you call him a partner at this point, or is, is that not something

Kayla: Uh, I mean maybe I call him a partner.

Sometimes I refer to him as a boyfriend. 'cause I think that that feels kind of fun and sweet and mm-hmm. And flirty. We live in the same neighborhood and it was interesting because we had seen each other a handful of times, just essentially as neighbors. And we have children, or he has a child the same age as me.

I had a friend who I found out as I opened up more about Carl and I's relationship status, who, uh, sort of in the swinging lifestyle and had threesomes and the, you know, engaged in some ENM. And she, when I was telling her about the, the, my partner at the time from the gym that it wasn't exactly fitting.[00:56:00] 

Um, she's like. You and Carl's relationship is built for e and MI think you would do really well being with somebody who is, you know, well-versed in non-monogamy and you should try this app field. So I'd opened the app field and it, you know, it really wasn't for me. I'd never used a dating app. I'm definitely not.

I'm probably the most vanilla. Non-monogamous poly person, you know, that I've met so far. Um, at least maybe this is evolving, but this was at first, so the people, the folks on field seemed a little bit, like too far out for me. It just seemed like, uh, this is not my landscape. I'd probably spent three minutes on there and thought, not for me.

My thought, she goes, no, you're kind of looking for a diamond in the rough. Like, give it a second try, take a look. And uh, I opened the app and boom, he was the first person I saw. His profile was on there. It was like e and m, you know, long-term, married, and, uh, you know, happily committed [00:57:00] father and husband, and I was.

Blown away because there's not that, there's, it's really not a robust, uh, pool of folks, especially e and m folks in Minneapolis. Um, especially attractive ones. And so, uh, I was like. What are the freaking odds? What are the odds that we have to spend under each other's noses for months and months and months?

I mean, literally under each other's noses. And we have this in common and so I just ended up sending him a text message. 'cause we had already exchanged phone numbers, just as friends, just as neighbors. Um, and I thought. What are the odds? You know, and I didn't even really know if I was interested in him, but more sort of interested in, um, again, building the community and, and having, getting to know other married couples who are doing this successfully.

I definitely wanted mentorship and community in that way, and I, I mean, objectively found him attractive, but attraction is more complex than just. What do you look like? What do [00:58:00] I look like? It's, for me, we've just been such a good match and it's been such an easy and really fun and really sexy and really energizing and really, um.

Just very, very sweet and rewarding relationship has bloomed from that, and I've just learned so much about myself as a person. I've been so inspired, sort of understanding envy and jealousy and like figuring out these complex needs. I couldn't really give it a name to. Prior to this experience become increasingly clear.

Fer: Wonderful. So tell me more about those things that you've learned. You said about jealousy and envy. Have you experienced jealousy with the neighbor? I'm just curious in your process, what has helped you overcome jealousy or insecurity?

If you want to hear the answer to this question. You can either subscribe to the podcast if you haven't already and wait a couple of [00:59:00] weeks, or go to my patron where you can already find the recording, where we talk about how Kayla has handled jealousy and envy, and she's got great tips around that. And also we talk about Carl's.

Connection with someone else the first time that he stepped out of his marriage and actually the first time that he was intimate with anyone besides Kayla. So if you want to listen to the rest of this conversation, follow the link in the show notes or subscribe to the podcast. Okay guys, thank you so much for listening and I'll cut you all next episode.