[00:00:00] 

Jonny: the feeling of insecurity has very oddly grown to be one of my favorite feelings, because it's more familiar to me now, and I notice that every time I feel insecure it's because something old is becoming rocked inside me. and that it needs attention.

and I think that insecurity is actually weirdly a gift. it's your body's way of like being like, oh, hey, there's this thing, that you maybe haven't been paying attention to, pay attention to me.

Mm-hmm. Like, whether it's like your child self or your, your adolescent self. they want to be seen and heard.

Fer: Nancy and Jonny, I'm so excited to finally have some time to sit down and talk to you both. I don't know you very well. I think you guys know me better by being fans of the podcast, but just what I've known of you through the meetups, the Patreon monthly meetups,um, you know, [00:01:00] just a few WhatsApp exchanges in the WhatsApp community or, personally as well.

I was just like, you know what? I feel like getting to know these people better. and let the world get to know them better as well, because I feel like if I have that instinct, then probably listeners will also want to

learn

more about

Nancy: Thank you. Thank you

Nancy + Jonny RX: for having

Jonny: us. We're we, we were just fangirling all over you before you started recording and how grateful we are for Polycurious Podcast and how like formative it's been for us in our learning and growth in this process. So we're very happy to be here.

Fer: Yeah, I, I really appreciated how you've mentioned to me even before that, there's been some lessons that you've learned, and I do wanna get into some of those lessons that yes, you probably learned partly from the podcast, but you also, I think, experienced yourself.

 tell me a little bit about your beginnings. So I know that you've been together for 20 [00:02:00] years, right?

 you have two kids, an 11-year-old and a 13-year-old, but you've only been open for about a year and a half. So how did that happen? Well, first of all, tell me a little bit about your relationship before then. Um, how did you guys meet and how did things evolve? And then how did the conversation to open up the relationship

come about

Nancy: we met here in New York. I was dating somebody else at the time, and, we met at a party where you were giving away things that you got for Christmas that you didn't want.

and yeah, it was really fun and I noticed Jonny from across the room because he was like, kind of had this way about him where he wasn't looking around to see like, oh, let me see if there's anyone better to talk to. Like, he was just like having a good time talking to his friends.

And so I just like, kind of like spied him outta the corner of my eyes, like, oh, [00:03:00] that person looks. Like really fun and like, like a good person. and then later on in the party I was talking in another room with a group of friends and we were talking about a neighborhood that I lived in and Jonny happened to overhear 'cause he was working in the same neighborhood.

And he was like, oh, hey you guys talking about, um, about Sunset Park. And, we were just talking about, uh, like Latino culture and our connection to the neighborhood. And there was like some Spanish speaking happening and I was like, oh, y'all, what are y'all talking about over here? You know?

Okay. That's cool fun. Yeah. And then he just gave me his card and was like, oh, if you ever like, you know, wanna tour the neighborhood or something like that.

Fer: I can tell that this was 20 years ago.

Nancy: It a long time ago. Yeah. Yeah.

 I basically, you know, took his card and I said, oh, okay. And then, Five months later, I, you know, finally broke up with, the guy I was [00:04:00] dating. And then I was like, oh, let me pull out that card by that guy. So I sent him an email and he responded, and then we went out on our first date.

Fer: Beautiful. So you mentioned that. You also kind of connected on the Latino culture.

Nancy: my, father is from Colombia and, um, my mother is of Irish descent,

Jonny: and, my father is Mexican and my mom is part Irish, part German background. we both have Latino fathers. and European

American

moms.

Fer: What a coincidence.

Jonny: Yeah.

 and also neither of our fathers taught

us Spanish growing up. And we learned in like high school, college, I mean, you studied abroad and mm-hmm. I did a study abroad also. yeah. So that was really exciting to me to meet somebody who spoke Spanish. I was like, oh, great, I can bring him to Columbia.

And, you know, [00:05:00] that was like a real perk at the time. And I think there was a very, strong chemistry from the very beginning. Mm-hmm. I think our connection felt very easy and natural.

I, I always felt a, a sense of, of stability mm-hmm. And safety. Mm-hmm. Um, with you. and all the other forms of chemistry really flowed from that. Mm-hmm. sensual and physical and also romantic chemistry. Mm-hmm. Just really all kind of flowed. From a very stable place.

Nancy: Yeah. We also were both raised Catholic and, you know, left that behind kind of early on, me earlier than him. so that was another thing that kind of joined us, I think was our Catholic upbringing and just kind

of getting away from that.

Fer: Interesting. Do you think that that has come

up at all in

your explorations of non-monogamy? You're

both shaking your heads for those who are

not

[00:06:00] watching,

Nancy: Yeah, Yeah. Big Mm-hmm. we've had to unlearn a lot of the conditioning, just that everyone has to unlearn, but I think the Catholicism especially, has kind of deep, deep roots in

us. Yeah. Very deeply

ingrained.

Mm-hmm.

Fer: Okay, well maybe we'll get to that. I know that this might not be non-monogamy related, but I guess it's in my mind because Seth and I just had a conversation about putting a timeline on when we want to have kids and is just gotten me to reflect on how relationships change,

So I'd be curious, how was your relationship pre-kids and after kids

Nancy: Yeah. I mean, I would say once we had

kids, we were just in the thick of it, right? So like, I think we listened to one of the podcasts where somebody was talking about, right after they had given birth and they went out on

a date and remember, oh, the Australian

couple, I

Fer: know [00:07:00] Abby and Liam,

I was just on their podcast evolving Love project. Shout out to them.

Nancy + Jonny RX: Oh,

Nancy: we gotta listen. Okay,

awesome. But I remember thinking about

that and thinking about how, I don't know that I would've been able to do that at the time because I was so, deeply, just in, in it, right in the thick of parenting and, new Parenthood and yeah. I don't know that we would've been able to do what we're doing now at that time.

Jonny: Yeah. and a, a big part of our story, is, our, our younger child. so we have two kids and our, our younger child was born with a disability. it's a, a brain condition, it's a lifetime condition. and it results in a variety of developmental delays, gross motor, fine motor, cognitive, social, lots of different things.

And so raising her, has [00:08:00] been, a pretty full experience. And in her early years it was sometimes overwhelming. and, when she got to be a little older, we were able to, get a whole variety of special education services and disability services, both in school and out of school.

 and those have been life changing for her and also life changing for us as parents. once we, we got these services, it really. Opened up, a lot more free time, rest time, downtime.

 we kind of came up for air, together and we were like, oh, it's, it's you again.

Like, I missed you and I love you so much. and so, you know, we, we were able to institute like a once a week date night, once a month date overnight. Much more quality [00:09:00] time, just in bed together on a weekend morning, just chatting and hanging out. and, and our kids were older too, right? Mm-hmm.

Yeah. So they're much more self-sufficient as well. Yeah. So that was the setting in, in which we started to discuss, as long as five years ago, you know, started to discuss this idea of

poly curiosity.

Fer: Hmm. So you started discussing it five years ago, but only a year and a half

ago you started acting on it. How did you start discussing it?

Nancy + Jonny RX: there were

Jonny: different moments throughout our partnership that the idea of,

of fantasizing about sexual encounters with another partner together came up. and Nancy had had those experiences before we, we got together I had never, I was like Catholic altar boy, practically a virgin.

 and [00:10:00] so I had a lot of curiosity and interest. and I think the questions were probably more coming from me. Mm-hmm. Um, but you were open to hearing them. And I remember Nancy saying, if you are really interested in something like this, we first have to work on our communication.

Nancy: so at that time we've been, which is so wise of me, I didn't even know. I mean, I really, I'm, I'm very with Hell yeah. past, past me for saying that. Mm-hmm.

Jonny: Amen. Amen. and we had already been going to therapy, you know, individually and stuff like that, but we really doubled down on that.

 and we got from a place of just kind of functioning level to a real thriving, state.

Nancy: I went to India, with two friends and, I was reading all fours by Miranda July, which I feel like is definitely the gateway to, ethical.

Well, I think it's been a gateway to a lot of divorces actually, but I think it's [00:11:00] also could, could potentially be a gateway to, ENM as well.

 it's just a book

I, for me that is a

lot about, you know, being of a certain age.

You know, I turned 50, last year and kind of questioning what you want out of life or, you know, what haven't you experienced. and so I came back after reading that book and I just expressed to Jonny I think I may be ready to talk about, the idea of opening up our relationship.

 and it kind of worked out because you, you had said that we were sort of in this Pina Colada moment, so, you know, that Pina Colada song so we were kind of in this moment where we were kind of reacquainting ourselves with each other

Jonny: I remember one of the things you said when you came back was, I'm kind of open to this idea of you and me being with another man in the bedroom and both of you pleasing me at the same time.

Mm-hmm. I remember [00:12:00] you saying that. Yeah. and I said, okay, that, that sounds great. I'm open to that. so then we started, looking around for different, educational resources and I, you know, I have friends who have. Kind of dipped into, polyamory and, and or also been to like, play parties.

 through like word of mouth and conversations, we found a lot of different really helpful resources out there, you know, and we live in New York City, which has a lot of different groups and communities.

And so we went to, a few workshops, like in-person workshops.

 one was called, unlearning mono normativity, which I love that phrase. because it was very illuminating as to this idea that we have been taking monogamy [00:13:00] for granted and holding it up as the only true way of relating romantically with a partner. and so it was really like this unlearning process, like deprogramming process that we started on.

And then we also went to social events and mixers in different, poly communities. And we weren't ready to do anything physical yet. I think to our credit, we were really taking things slow. so we would, you know, go to a social event or go to a workshop and then like reflect on it and discuss it and see what came up for us and then go to another event and then repeat.

Nancy: And for me it felt like a very, easy way in, as much as like I came back, from India, you know, with all these great ideas when it came to actually thinking about doing things, I was like, oh no.

Like, you know, the idea of just going straight to a play party was very overwhelming to me. and early on in one of these social mixers that we went [00:14:00] to, we each separately happened to hit it off with one other person. so, I connected with someone who came up to me

a woman who had kind of been eyeing me and, and came up to me and said, do my eyes look blue or gray to you right now? Um, and I said, let me have a look, gray, why? And she's like, well, they actually changed color randomly. and I was like, that's so intriguing. Tell me more.

And, and so we, we, you know, we connected and then, later that night we found ourselves like sitting down on a couch next to each other and she asked to caress my hair. and I said, sure.

And my heart was beating like

so fast.

Fer: Right, the first the first interaction with someone new after 20 years, right? Or 19, maybe at that point. Even if it's just someone cursing your hair,

Nancy + Jonny RX: Mm-hmm.

Fer: have felt

Nancy: Oh, it was so, electrifying. and then after like 10 seconds after she started caressing my hair, I'm [00:15:00] like, actually, could you gimme a minute? I need to make sure I, my partner's okay with

this.

Fer: Yeah. I mean, yes. Great, great. Good for you. That's

how it should be, but it's kind of

ridiculous

at the same time. you know, what I mean? you did the right thing. I would've done the same. That's how you should

do it. But it sounds

Jonny: Of course. Exactly. And so I, you know, I went and checked, you know, Hey Nancy, is it okay that this person's sing my hair? She said, okay, yeah, sure. Go for it. Go for it. And you were chatting up with, with this other person, would you like to share about the connection that you made? Oh yeah. That night was,

 was really fun to be like, oh, it's easy to connect with people, right? Like that, I think because as a married person. you know, I would be flirtatious with people like, you know, random person in the coffee shop, but then I always kind of shut it off once it got to a certain point. Like I would be like, oh no, okay, I'm married.

Oh my children, you know, or I would just kind of bring that kind of thing up. So [00:16:00] this was the first time where it was like, oh, I feel flirty energy, and now we're just gonna go with that. Like, we're just gonna explore what that feels like and exchange numbers. And, you know, we texted for a while after that and so that was, I think the first time where I was like, oh, okay, so this is okay, right?

Like that we can just, explore this. And so it was small things that might seem small to other people, but for us it was a really big deal to be like, Hey, I'm gonna text this person. Like, you know, are you

okay with that kind of

thing?

Fer: Yeah. I think that even what you just said, as you said, it might sound small, but it's so big to me, it's almost almost the main reason why I want to be non-monogamous, because it feels so strange when you feel a vibe with someone to cut it, right? Because you have another partner. And that has always felt like, it doesn't make sense to [00:17:00] me.

 and it, and felt like you are restricting yourself, like you're not being yourself. Right? And, the funny thing is that you might not end up making out or hooking up or dating this person, but it's just kind of nice to be able to be in that space where you're connecting and maybe it leads to something, or maybe it's just a flirtatious friendship, you know?

 And I really, really like that you both approached it, like really slow.

it also sounds like even before going to events, you were working on your which is amazing.

So I'm, I'm curious,where do you feel likeyour communication wasn't the best and what did you do to fix it and, and like make it get to a place where you felt like you could

open up and communicate better about it? Because I think, that's a great tip before you even open up work on your communication, you know.

Nancy + Jonny RX: Yeah. Yes.

Nancy: I think, for me, I.

I started [00:18:00] studying, politicized somatics, which allowed me to kind of be more in my body and allowed me to kind of understand when my body was telling me something that maybe I didn't know intellectually yet, or I wasn't able to speak it, but that sometimes my body would have a reaction to something and I just wouldn't listen to that, right?

Like, I would just kind of move beyond it. And so I think for me, the communication has been like, hold on, let me sit with that for a second. let me actually think, what is my body telling me right now? Do I feel a tightness in my chest? Is there like a swirling in my belly? is there tension in my shoulders?

And using that as a way to communicate because Otherwise, I sometimes would be like, oh yeah, Jonny, that's fine. Or, you know, just not necessarily always bring up exactly what was going on for me. And so from my point of view, my communication got better the more [00:19:00] I communicated what was actually happening for me and what what was actually coming up for me.

And knowing that he was gonna be able to receive that and not take it personally. Right. That I could be like, Hey, I'm feeling, you know, jealous and this is even before any of the ENM conversations, but just like, Hey, I am feeling upset that you, you know, did whatever. Right. Just like some random thing with our kids or in our household.

 so I think that that was a big one for me is just starting to like really trust that I could bring anything to him and he would receive it without feeling defensive.

Jonny: And I see that in you, that when I ask you a question like, Hey, would you be okay with this thing? five years ago you would've been like, yes, without pausing.

 and now I noticed that you'll say, let me think about that for a minute. Mm-hmm. And then you'll actually be [00:20:00] silent for a, for a moment, you seem to be checking in with yourself. Mm-hmm. and then I've trust that the answer that you're giving is a very authentic answer.

Nancy: Yeah. I think I'm a recovering people pleaser, so really learning to like actually put myself first in these scenarios. Mm-hmm. And that it actually does such a disservice if I'm not true to my own experience, because if I keep saying yes, but it's not an authentic yes, then that's not good for me.

That's not good for him, and it's also not good to anyone else I'm interacting with. That was one of my biggest fears in the beginning was like, I don't know if I can go to a play party because I don't yet know how I I the boundary of saying like, no, not right now. Like, we did a lot of like practice things even before we went where I'd say like, kind of like a, a scenario of like somebody coming up and like, what might I respond like, oh, not right now or like, not today or, yeah.

You [00:21:00] know, just kind of practicing the language of saying no

Jonny: Yeah. and Fernanda, that actually reminds me of. One of your podcasts with, I think their names were Luna and Leo, is that right?

And they, they, remember they talked about safety. and that really resonated with us. And we, we started talking about safety and remember how you kind of talked about how, what safety looked like for you and safety looked like, putting your own needs on the back burner mm-hmm.

Yeah. In the past. so that you wouldn't take up too much space. Mm-hmm. and that what you're talking about now is, is a confrontation of that.

Nancy + Jonny RX: and for me, I think it's been, about a journey of healing, which I did not expect, and [00:22:00] I expected polyamory and ethical non-monogamy to be just sexy, fun times.

Jonny: and I also expected it, or, or was hoping that it would be an exploration of queerness, which it, that it absolutely has been and continues to be that. but the fun, sexy times is like 2% of the time, as we know, right? As, as sure you know. and so, This actually brings us back to that moment when you connected with that person, with that man mm-hmm.

Um, at the, at the party. And then you were texting with each other. And it came to a certain point where you asked me, what do you think about me going on a date with this person? And I remember saying, yeah, sure, totally. Go for it.

 but I felt in my, in my body, just everything felt wrong and, and panicky. And and I was, it triggered a memory of my college girlfriend, who we dated [00:23:00] for like four or five years.

We thought we were gonna get married, we're very old fashioned kind of Catholics. and towards the end of our relationship, she confessed that she had a crush on her med school, ta, like her teaching assistant. and I was like, all right, go for it. And, and this is after five years of being together, right?

I was like, you wanna hook up with them? You want, we can maybe make things non-exclusive between the two of us. Go for

it and this

is

Fer: interesting that you had that openness even though you were

Jonny: That's true. That's true.

It was very

strange. I, think we were very young and, and didn't have the tools at the time to be able to navigate something that Rocky. So I remember that night she hooked up and with her med school TA spent the night with him. this conversation with Nancy triggered that exact memory.

Right. and [00:24:00] luckily I have therapy now. I'm. 45 years old. I, I have so much more maturity and tools, and so I was able to process that in therapy and, you know, I found a lot of healing. and got in touch with that, like some, some real like self-limiting beliefs that I have been operating on most of my life.

 like that for example, that I'm not inherently worthy, I can only earn worthiness through good works and accolades and praise, and, that I'm too much and not enough, that I have to check myself at the door. so a lot of these self-limiting beliefs had been just rolling around inside me for years, including in our own marriage and.

I think when we pushed ourselves, a little bit outside of our comfort zone through this opening up experience, it really brought some of those old [00:25:00] things right up to the surface

again.yeah.

Fer: Yeah. Yeah. It's really crazy how non-monogamy really does that for you. Right? So it's really, as you said, it's, it can be healing, it can be, something that really gets you to realizethat you hadn't gotten over when your ex went and had sex with the

 ta. and I think for me as well,what non-monogamy taught me is my trauma with my dad.

Right. and how I was seeking attention from men to kind of feel a void that he had left. 'cause I felt abandoned by him, even though he was present. He didn't contribute financially and he, wouldn't give me birthday gifts. And in many ways I didn't feel loved, even though in his actions he did, except for not giving money.

He did, he did show me his love, you know? And, and I don't know if I would've ever discovered that and, and like to some degree healed [00:26:00] that If I hadn't opened my relationship and explored non-monogamy and all of that. But, I love what you both share. I think for you, Nancy, the point about not just saying yes and being a people pleaser, but tuning in with yourself, non-monogamy also pushes you to do that.

I know you started the process beforehand, but being able to say, no, I don't want this is so important because if you say, oh no, it's totally fine. And then, you know, like, it happened to you Jonny, and then like your partner goes and does something that you, you are not fine about, then that has terrible consequences.

And then you learn to really be honest about, where your boundaries are. So I would really recommend that people who are listening take that with them of not just. Saying yes. Because they want to be supportive towards their partners. And they, they want to be okay and they want to not be jealous.

But to really be honest and take that second to be like, okay, let me tune into my [00:27:00] body. Right?

 I think that really, really, really helps people to, to communicate better.

 but yeah. Tell us Jonny then, okay. When, when Nancy was like, okay, I wanna go on that date, was it then that like this came up or was it when she actually went on the date? And

how did you move through kind of that past trauma into becoming more comfortable, assuming that you did?

Jonny: well in

Nancy + Jonny RX: Yeah,

Jonny: In that

particular case, you never ended up

going out mm-hmm. On a date. It was more of a hypothetical. Yeah. that, that never panned out. Mm-hmm. but yes. there, there have been subsequent, events that have happened on our ENM journey that have brought up, more things, but whenever there was a really strong feeling from either of us coming up, like a strong sense of insecurity or big feelings, we've been good, good about communicating those big feelings to each other and then asking for what we might need.

Mm-hmm. [00:28:00] including I need some time to process this before we move forward on the next thing. Mm-hmm. Is that okay with you? Are you open to pausing? for a moment. While we process or while I process.

Nancy: Yeah. And I think one of the things that's been really helpful is using a scale of one to 10 to be like, okay, so you're feeling, you know, jealous or you're feeling, whatever.

And, and how strong is that feeling? Is it like I'm feeling like a two, or I'm feeling like actually like, it's like a nine, you know, in terms of this intense, feeling. And that has been very important to me because, because I can so easily if Jonny says like, you know, I'm really feeling uncomfortable, or I'm feeling upset, or even if he's like, I'm feeling sick, I instantly will rush in to kind of.

Cater to that. Whereas if he says, well actually, you know, it's kind of a low level sickness or it's a low level [00:29:00] jealousy, it's like two or three, then I can say, oh, all right then that sounds like something that you can tend to on your own time and in therapy and that kind of thing. And it's not necessarily something that I have to take on.

So the scale has been really helpful, I think, for both of us, but for me especially to be like, okay, how do I gauge whether or not I, need to come in, you know, or, or, you know, have, have a conversation around it.

I love that. I really love that tip because, and this is another thing that I work with my clients on, they might feel that because their partner is uncomfortable with something that they're doing, they shouldn't be doing it. And what I tell them is, your partner can be uncomfortable and you can still go and do it.

Fer: And, and also on the other hand, I tell the partner that's uncomfortable. You can say you're uncomfortable and still say that yes, they can go do it, right? Like they think that if they say, oh, [00:30:00] I'm feeling jealous, then that means that they're saying no, you can't go on the date when you can say, I'm feeling a little jealous and it's a little uncomfortable.

But you know what? It's a two, as you said, right? Like it's a two. So I think that I'll be fine. So go on the date right? As opposed to being like, yes, it's fine. Go on the date. Go on the date Right? I like the scale because you can be like, yeah, I'm jealous, but it's a two jealousy, so don't worry too much about it.

But also, it's good to put it out just so the other person is aware, right? Because that might influence how late they go and they come back from the date or something, right? Like if they know that, even if it's a two, if they know that you are feeling a certain way, they might not be like, oh, he's fine, or she's fine.

I'm gonna spend the night

even though I didn't check before, or whatever. Or you know, they'll be like a little bit more sensitive towards that two or three or five or

Jonny: And

Nancy: Yeah.

Jonny: there is another, helpful tool that,

that we use that goes along with that is, once one person shares that [00:31:00] feeling and the number of the feeling, then the other person can say in response, what we call the three Hs, do you want to be helped, heard or hugged? About this feeling or this issue that is coming for you?

 which we have found profoundly helpful because in the past  When Nancy would bring a problem to me, I would

almost automatically jump

into helping mode.

Fer: That's a very, very common with men specifically, but also, you know, there were other, oh, I gotta solve, you know, I gotta be the, I gotta protect.

Jonny: yes.

Men are

conditioned

to,

to fix things, to,

find solutions, to, bust out their toolbox

and, and make it like new again.

Fer: And I think that that's also why they often get defensive too, because when someone says, I feel this way, they feel like, oh, it's because I'm doing something wrong. It's not, you know, that means that it's my [00:32:00] responsibility to fix it. I did something wrong. I don't think I did something wrong.

And then they get into

that train instead of just being like, that person can feel the, way that they feel, and that doesn't mean that you did anything wrong or that there's

anything to fix, you know?

Nancy: that's right. Yeah. Yeah. Well,

and also I think the, for me, what I've discovered in that is that almost 80% of the time I just wanna be heard. Right? Like, that's almost, that, that's, that's the majority of times like heard and then hugged, right? Those are like the my top two. And then usually in terms of help, it's usually like if I'm like, yeah, actually I'm kind of stuck on this.

Like, can you offer up some ideas? Or like, sometimes you'll say like, can I offer you reassurance about that? but, most of the time it's just feeling heard because I think everybody wants to just be seen, you know? Mm-hmm. Like to, to be seen for the complexity that we all are.

And, having your partner [00:33:00] reflect that back to you, that's honestly more important. Especially because I feel like if he really hears me and really understands where I'm coming from, that will change any kinds of behaviors that are not necessarily working for me. Right. Yeah. And I would say to my fellow cisgender males out there that might be struggling with this idea, 'cause I struggled for a long time, with letting go or moving through this urge to fix things.

Jonny:  I used to use the phrase actionable items with you. Do you remember that? No. Oh my gosh. You poor thing. I'm glad you forgot. I'll be like, I, I just need you to tell me actionable items, Nancy,

 just give something to hold onto so I can actually, you know, fix it. but like, I feel ironically the biggest form of fixing if there were one is to hear, you know, is to actively listen and to repeat [00:34:00] back, what your partner says or what, and anybody, it, it doesn't have to be just your romantic partner.

It could be any, anyone in your life. Family, friends, loved ones. yeah.

Fer: I love that. So where did you get that helped? Heard or hugged? I love it. Did you make it, make it up or you got it somewhere?

Nancy + Jonny RX: So I'm, I'm actually a

kid

Jonny: therapist.

Fer: 

Jonny: and ironically,

the kid Therapy and Ethical

non-monogamy have a very large Venn diagram connection, that's another one that I would've never predicted. But, there's all these really powerful tools out there, you know, in, in child therapy. and they're very simple.

 and so that's one of them.

Fer: I love it.

but let's get back to your story,

Jonny: Yeah. Well, the next thing that we did was we, decided to go to our first, like [00:35:00] physical.

Experience, which was, a makeout party.

 it's an event called lip service, which is just a kissing is kind of the highest level of physicality that happens.

 so we went there together, and they have spin the bottle, and some like icebreaker activities and sexy Jenga. Yeah. Yeah.we kind of, Split it off in our own different directions at that party, which we have tended to do at most parties that we've gone to. Mm-hmm. and I played Spin the Bottle and it's a pansexual, party and it's a queer centric space.

 is all genders, are, are there, and, and you know, there's, they're really big on consent and communication and boundaries. And so you can do whatever you want to do. you could give a hug if that's [00:36:00] all you wanna do. You could do a French kiss if you wanna do a French kiss, you know.

 I told everyone in the circle, I'm like, this is my first time ever doing something like this. just wanted to put that out there. I'm a little nervous, but I'm really happy to be here and, and everybody was so nice and, you know, kind about about it. And, and I ended up making out with almost every face in the circle.

 and, I, you know, really had never kissed a bearded face. I have a beard. Um, and I was worried it would feel scratchy and it was perfectly pleasant. and so that was a really, I think empowering experience, as well as a pleasant experience. And it was kind of my first foray into this, you know, into the physical and sensual side of queer curiosity.

Nancy: for me. and for me, I did sexy Jenga and um, that was really great just to practice [00:37:00] boundaries and practice consent, right?

You know, you'd pull out a thing and it would be like, okay, who wants to spank me? And then, you know, you could kind of pick who you want. Like people would raise their hand and you would be like, okay, you and you or something. so it was like these small little games, but ways to be like, actually no, I don't want to do that.

I'd like to do this other thing, like, I'm gonna pick another Jenga,

 I met somebody at that party who, it was just like instant chemistry, instant chemical kind of, connection. and he was there with his partner and his partner was next to him. And it was like, oh man, like this is wild to me to just be in this environment and just have it feel so easy.

Cool. Yeah. Again, it seems like you went super slow, you talked about it for years, worked on your communication, went to workshops, and then finally went to this party, which was a makeout party, and not even like a play [00:38:00] party. I want listeners to take this away from these episodes to do it like you guys did it. I'm curious, Jonny 'cause you mentioned that the appeal of non-monogamy was probably also to explore your queer side, so how had you realized that you were queer, if that's how you identify

Jonny: Yeah, that's great question.

so I remember being a kid and hearing stories, you know, my adolescence of like, other guy friends of mine who did a circle jerk together or. know, pulled down their pants and compared penis sizes with each other. and I remember hearing these stories and I, I never did those things.

 I never happened to be there at those different moments and feeling really intrigued and really a little envious.

 so I think entering into this world of ENM kind of gave me a. Leave no stone unturned approach. and so I came back to that and, and [00:39:00] I was like, I really don't know what this is going to bring. But I, like Nancy has been incredibly supportive, in my journey of queer curiosity. and I really like the word queer because it is so open-ended and open to interpretation.

 and in, in every queer space that I've been to, it feels very nonjudgmental, very liberatory, and very open-minded, which are all traits that I've always gravitated towards, you know, and, and that have always felt so healthy and healing for me. and so I think there was just this, at the very least, like a social emotional attraction.

To the queer community. and so, so then I'm like, well, let me see if where I'm at with the physical side of this.

Fer: So it sounds like you had the awareness simply from hearing stories about men being naked together in a room and you being like, [00:40:00] Ooh, that sounds interesting to me. You were like, I think I might be queer, but I wonder, again, because of your Catholic upbringing, I, I wonder how you made sense of

that?

 maybe when you had those thoughts at first you were like. Oh no. Does this mean I'm gay? I'm gay. Like I shouldn't be having these thoughts. how did you go

from that to being like, oh, actually let's open up the relationship and let me make out with a bearded man at a paty

Jonny: Yes, you're absolutely right. I had to come face to face with a lot of ingrained biases in myself, that were a result of my religious upbringing. I think if I were raised in another era, like if I grew up in my kids, age, I probably would've experimented with various identities and sexual orientations, from the get go.

 and I remember when I did that, that spin the bottle, that I told you about. I remember in my subconscious mind predicting [00:41:00] that I would either feel, disgust or turn fully gay. Like I actually had that subconscious thought going into the spin the bottle experience, and neither of those things happened.

Fer: It was a perfectly pleasant and open-minded experience. Yeah. 'cause that's what we're sold, right? Like, I remember that narrative of there's no bisexual people. You're either gay or you're heterosexual. You know? And I think even I believe that at some point, So how has your exploration with men been so far?

Jonny: I

went on a date with a man that I met on Feeld, who is queer. And and it was super pleasant socially. and I even put myself out there even further and I like asked him, Hey, could we go on a walk? Could we hold hands? and we did. And then we went to a park, busted out a picnic blanket.

 I [00:42:00] offered to give him a back rub. 'cause again, gave no stone unturned. I'm just gonna do this right. And I could tell he was enjoying himself but it, for me, I wasn't feeling aroused. I wasn't feeling a chemistry. and so I, I, I shared that with him, you know, later I that and, um, and so, but that doesn't rule out that you wouldn't feel chemistry with someone else.

Oh, of course. Who is now presenting course. Oh, of, of course. Yeah. And so that was one experience. And then another experience was I went to this, group called New York Jacks, which is a, mostly gay male space, that is basically a giant masturbation party. and. that was obviously totally new to me.

 but it was something that I was really intrigued by and thought about it for months read up on it and talked to a couple people who had been [00:43:00] there and kind of got a sense of what it would be like. And I was like, okay, Jonny, let's do this. You can do this. and it's pretty wild because you go into this space, it's a big open space.

There's about a hundred men there. and you have to check your clothes at the coat check, but not just your coat, your entire clothes. So except your shoes, your butt naked. there was so many different body types there and so many different age groups and races, ethnicities, languages, and everyone was like sexy for somebody.

Um, another thing that there was a diversity in was penis size. And, I'm one of many men who has dealt with insecurity around penis size. I read up on this 'cause I was curious like how many males are, are insecure And like about 50% of males have had some sort of insecurity around their penis size.

 [00:44:00] and what I saw there was so awesome. It was like, a chiseled bodybuilder. Man walking up to like, a hairy bear man with like a small member and jerking him off, and then that man jerking him off, right? And, by the way, is this, is this okay? This level of sexual explicit words.

Okay.

and I, I loved that. I, I loved seeing that, there's this idea that, is, everyone is sexy to someone. that, that it's not this idea that a conventional attractiveness and conventionally attractive bodies are the only ones that are gonna get attention. And the only ones that are gonna, you know, get paid attention to and, and, and get a number or make a connection.

Find love? nope. it was a very, it was like showing my body, like hard [00:45:00] evidence that all that is bullshit. so that was really liberating for me. and I had some really like intimate sexual experiences there as well. and I went back a second time and I noticed that both times I did not orgasm, which isn't necessarily a clear marker of things, but it was like, okay, that's a little data point to pay attention to.

 and I also didn't feel necessarily like a real fire in my loins, like a real deep arousal. It was like very pleasant but it was mostly like personally empowering. To be just walking around butt naked, running my hands over my body and having other people look at me like, damn, you know, like, that was great.

 but I think I left that second time, in terms of, where am I at in this queer journey, kind of with some more questions than [00:46:00] answers. I decided to basically allow myself to, make peace with this idea that, maybe I can be in a questioning mode for a while and just kind of hang out there for a while and not necessarily be in a rush to find things out.

 because I think there was a certain part of me that was oddly disappointed, when I wasn't feeling like, oh. I'm into like the male physique also I'm, I'm into all genders. And, that it was somehow cutting me off from, twice as many potential play partners in the world. Um, um, and, um, but I, I, I think I've really gotten to a place where I am not rushing to any conclusions and just, kind of hanging out in the, in the gray area,

Nancy: 

Fer: Yeah. That's awesome. And yeah, I think that especially for queer men, it probably is hard to know how much [00:47:00] of it is, And maybe for queer women too, how much of it is Your conditioning and your own blockages from your Catholic upbringing

So, I really like that you are down or were down to explore it, but were also like, I'm not gonna, you know, force myself to have sex with a man just because I must find out whether I'm bisexual or not and just be like, well, I wanted to go to a party.

I had a great time, but I don't feel the need to. seek gay men to date necessarily right now. But you know, if I find someone that I do feel that attraction with, maybe I'll go for it. So I love that. we kind of, I guess, jumped a few steps, right? Because we went from, you guys not dating yet, but just going to these makeup parties to then you exploring with men.

So fill us in a little bit in between.

 what else did you do to ease

into. Having your partner [00:48:00] of 20 years date dating for the first time.

Nancy: we

 well, I guess the next thing was we went to, a play party with, the Susya community. And that's another community in New York, that's, bipoc centered.

And, I really felt very good and every time we went to workshops there and mixers there, and so we were like, okay, we're gonna go to this play party. and I think we had always thought we were gonna be doing things together. And then I met somebody at that party that I instantly connected with and Jonny was, dancing on the dance floor while I was with this person.

And, Then it was kind of like, this person doesn't necessarily want to be with another man. and so I got his number and then we went out on a date, like, you know, I don't know, couple months later and, and that was the first time where I was like, I think actually I wanna [00:49:00] date separately.

 I don't want it to be something that we're going out together on. And so that was a big adjustment, I think, for Jonny to be like, oh wait, you're not gonna do this with somebody who is bisexual and wants to be with me as well. and that was really hard. that was probably the toughest, experience we had was at that party because Jonny hadn't connected with somebody else.

And I had, and it was. It was really painful,

Jonny: and like a, a pain, another like painful twist in that was, do you remember the, so the person who you, the man who you connected with? Mm-hmm. I was vibing with someone on the dance floor. and, and we were like chatting and dancing at the same time.

And then I asked her, Hey, would you like to dance a little bit closer? and she said, not today. Thank you. and I was like, okay, that's cool. but I felt like a pit in my stomach of like, Ooh. it felt hard. It was hard to hear. [00:50:00] Mm-hmm. And so I was dealing with my own feelings of rejection.

 and then at that moment, the man who you had been like making out with upstairs, he came downstairs and grinded with the very same person who I, who had just declined.

Dancing with me.

Fer: that's the worst. you know, I'm not a very jealous person, but When there's a woman that two of the, men that I've been with are interested in her, I do then get jealous. I do then

feel the, the

competition in me,

you know?

Nancy + Jonny RX: Yep. Yeah. Yeah.

Jonny: So like, here, here's someone who just like scored with like my partner of 20 years. Right. And, and someone who I was trying to hit on, right. And then I'm just like, do, do, do, just gonna keep on dancing on the dance floor, acting like I'm not hurt. Yeah. That rough. That rough.

Nancy: Yeah. And so then Jonny came and talked to me during that, party, and just said that he was [00:51:00] feeling really uncomfortable and could we go? And I was like, oh, wait, but like, I just had this kind of incredible time with this person. and I remember saying to you I wanna feel good.

And he was like, what does that mean? And again, it was like a lesson for me and like being specific, right? It's like, I wanna know that I can see this person again. I wanna get his number. I wanna like make a connection so that I know that I'll see him again, and not leave the party and not have a way to contact him in the future.

Right? So once I said that, he was like, oh, okay, sure. Yeah. I like exchanged numbers and then Jonny and I left and, Then I later went out with this guy and then have been seeing him for like the last, I would say, like 10 months. 10 months. just seeing him kind of once a month dating him. and that's been really awesome.

Like it's been really, really [00:52:00] great. And I think Jonny had to do a lot of work around just the fact that it was like a consistent thing and you know, that it was without him. and so now Jonny has gone out on a date and felt very connected with another woman.

And so now it's my turn to kind of do some of that same work and maybe kind of borrow from some of the things that he worked on. The time that I started dating, this guy.

So he has a lot of empathy for me and I have a lot of empathy for him, because we both kind of have experienced it now.

Fer: so Jonny tell us all the secrets. how did you work through those feelings of, of jealousy and how can you help Nancy and other people that are going through those feelings? Also, what you guys experience is super common, right? Like, oh, we're gonna do this together. And then one person in the partnership [00:53:00] more often than not the woman, because we have a more options, you know, assuming it's a, you know, mostly, hetero sexual facing couple,that that's like, oh, actually, but I wanna do it on my own.

Right. And that can be really hard. So how do you kind of get over that

hump? And also just more generally, the consistency of Nancy's relationship with this person.

Nancy + Jonny RX: Hmm.

Jonny: I think

it goes back to that, therapeutic healing journey that I have been on. and I haven't done that alone. we're blessed with a really badass community of loved ones in our life. we can't do this alone, right? and we don't exist just as a nuclear family.

this has really broadened our definition of family. so there's a lot of different people that I have leaned on for support through these, difficult times. And so that's been really, helpful and crucial. and I think a lot of self-care. [00:54:00] I started going to the gym, to a personal trainer twice a week.

I've never done that. And so that's like huge, right? And. This is cheesy, but like, there's so many different elements. I take multivitamins every morning now, like I'm on top of my health, my, like I take cholesterol medication. I take myself on walks in the park and listen to music. I made myself a self-love playlist and I have a handful of songs that I listen to that I know are gonna automatically get the waterworks going for me.

 I've cried more in the last two years than I have in my whole life combined. And I look at it as if inside me there's this big reservoir of tears that had just been building up bigger and bigger and bigger. And, you know, I'm finding the [00:55:00] key to. Let that reservoir rush. and for me, music is really big.

 like I play music, I play drums. I love dancing. in the midst of this ENM journey, we start hosting dance parties in our home, for neighbors and friends and family. when shit gets real, we trust that we have built and are continuing to build a very strong local community of loved ones, that are giving each other mutual support.

Nancy: When you had people come over, like, the very first time I went out, he had a friend come over and they hung out and, you know.

Mm-hmm. That's right. Like you, you really leaned on people mm-hmm. In the beginning. yeah. Which was huge to see. And I, I think there's just been so much of, you've taken care of yourself in a way that I haven't seen, yeah.

Before this journey started, right?

Jonny: Mm-hmm. And so I think I'm really in an [00:56:00] era of getting in touch with my own unshakeable self-worth.

 And, there's this song that has this quote at the end. It's in Spanish, but the English translation is that there's nothing more beautiful than once you light your own fire.

Nobody can put it out. and that's what I feel like I have been doing. Like, I'm like nursing this fire. no one can put it out like, to quote another musician, Whitney Houston. no matter what they take from me, they can't take away my dignity.

Fer: Wow. Beautiful. I, I wanna ask for your, it might be too personal and it's totally okay say no, but I, wanna

ask for your playlist

to put it out there for

Nancy + Jonny RX: Oh yeah, I'd be happy to.

Oh

my gosh.

 real cheesy. Just to warn you, if you're down for cheese,

then it's not really, you got it. I wouldn't

say that.

Fer: Yeah. I mean, as you said, sometimes you just need the [00:57:00] waterworks flowing, right? What you're hinting at is, you know, when those feelings come, whatever it is, if it's jealousy, if it's lack of self-worth, whatever, just kind of, being there with the feelings and like letting yourself feel those things.

And also giving yourself what you need, whether that's community, whether that's, Self care,

 so I, I think that that's awesome that you are on that journey, as you opened up the relationship. Okay. Last question, unfortunately, 'cause I could talk to you guys forever, but what would you tell to a Polycurious person?

As a final piece of advice,

Nancy + Jonny RX: I think I'll say to don't be afraid to take it slow and like, even if it's really, really slow. Right. for me, the biggest learning has happened just in the conversations we've had.

Right. Even more so than the actions. Those things have also brought up a lot to the surface, but. [00:58:00] Just being able to talk to your partner about what your desires are and what your authentic yearnings are has been huge. that's just been so wonderful. So even if you spend two years just talking about it, um, I think that can be really, really fruitful.

Jonny: I think there's two ideas that come to mind. one is, don't go into ENM with an empty bucket that you're seeking to fill from an external source. try to go into ENM, finding ways to fill your own bucket. and for me that's felt like it's made a big difference is Not seeking, uh, something that I feel like I'm lacking on the inside, with another person, with an external partner, with a, a make out session at a masturbation party. You know, but, coming at it with a [00:59:00] sense of wholeness.  and then get comfortable with insecurity, or find a way to sit with insecurity.

 the feeling of insecurity has, has very oddly grown to be one of my favorite feelings, because it's more familiar to me now, and I notice that every time I feel insecure it's because something old is becoming like, rocked inside me. and that it needs attention.

 and Nancy is a very, helpful in validating when I say, oh, hey, I'm, this is bringing up some feelings of insecurity for me right now. actually you, Fernanda, you, I remember you brought that up in your breakup story, I think with John, that you, some of the fights and conflicts that you would get into would be possibly because of, not having named the feeling that is coming up for the person.

Instead launching into [01:00:00] some kind of an action step or, a comment or a criticism. and I think that insecurity is actually weirdly a gift. it's your body's way of like being like, oh, hey, there's this thing, um, that you maybe haven't been paying attention to, pay attention to me.

Mm-hmm. Like, whether it's like your child self or your, your adolescent self. they want to be seen and heard.

Nancy + Jonny RX: Yeah. Yeah. I, I really, really, really, love that because at the end of the day, we can't just push our feelings away when they're uncomfortable. Right? Like, they're telling us something that, we need to pay attention to that if we pay attention to them. And that's the thing, non-monogamy pushes those feelings up.

Fer: If we pay attention to them, then we can actually examine them. heal and evolve and grow And it sounds like that's what you both have been doing in this, in this journey.

 uncovering stuff,and then being like, how can I grow as a person

[01:01:00] knowing what I know now that I didn't know before

because I

wasn't exposed to non-monogamy. Right?

Nancy + Jonny RX: it's an exponential growth that you

wouldn't have access

to necessarily. Had we had, we continued in our current state, we wouldn't have had access to that. So I'm really grateful for everything that is brought up.

Fer: yeah. You know, me too. And at the same time, I understand that sometimes it's not the time to excavate and deal with all that shit, you know, that comes up sometimes. It's totally okay to be like. I grew a lot from it. And you know what? I need a break, you know, which is where I'm, I am right now. And I'm just mentioning that.

'cause literally, I just posted on Instagram, wow. I'm taking a break from non-monogamy and I'm feeling so good about it. And now I'm like, but you know, you grow so much from it and both things are true. You know, but sometimes it's not the moment to grow like that, right? Like when you first had kids and you realize of your child's condition and you had to deal with all of that.

[01:02:00] Imagine dealing with that. Dealing with everything that you just talked about, right? Like it would've been impossible. So there's periods for everything, but it does bring immense growth, especially if you do it intentionally like you guys have done it. but anyhow, sadly, this has come to an end. But thank you so much.

Truly such a lovely conversation. And one of those that I think that people will have to really listen to because there were a lot of awesome

nuggets of wisdom.

Nancy + Jonny RX: such a

pleasure to talk with you and thank you for bringing all the different interviews into the mix from so many different, walks of life that people are coming from. Um, I really appreciate that. So thank you.