Liam: [00:00:00] I'm missing a little part of my brain that stops me from being compersive.

Abbey: Liam's like, you know, if I'm chatting with someone or like, you know, dating someone, Liam's like, oh my gosh, can you two? What if you go on a little holiday together? And I'm like, what? Like when am I going on this holiday?

Like, for how long? Liam's like, I don't know. Like what, you know, it doesn't have to be two or three nights.

But my compersion also, I feel like my, it's a little bit, gets a bit weird.If we're gonna get a little bit explicit here, like I do when I'm like alone by myself and I'm having my own, okay, paint us a picture like my, my own time where I'm, you know, I'm with myself or whatever.

Liam: Okay.

Abbey: It's very compersion led. Like, I really enjoy imagining you with another woman. And then my compersion is not always what I would want it to be in reality.

Fer: Hi everyone. Welcome to Polycurious, I am Fer Relationship [00:01:00] coach and your host, and today I'm talking to my friends Abbey and Liam from the Evolving Love Project. Now, you might remember them from episode 42 of the podcast where we talked about their journey being poll parents, and I will make sure to link it in the show notes in case you want to check that out.

You might also be familiar with them from their own podcast, the Evolving Love podcast, where I was actually recently a guest and we talked about my monopoli relationship with Seth as well as how Liam and I met a few years ago through Feeld actually, and how we went on a first date, but we were unable to go on a second date because of some feelings that came up for Abbey.

So if you want to hear the whole gossip. You can go and listen to that episode. I also added the link in the [00:02:00] show notes, but Abbey and Liam not only have a podcast, Abbey has a substack where she writes beautifully about motherhood, about non-monogamy, about sexuality, and the two of them have become. Public figures in Australia where they live, and what I really appreciate about them, and a way in which I think that we are similar in our approaches to non-monogamy and educating the public about it, is that they understand that non-monogamy is nuance and that everyone does it a little bit different.

And that as long as everyone is being respected and there's consent, there's nothing wrong with doing things in a certain way that might be different from what you hear in online discourses. And one of the things we talk about today is asymmetry. I think that one of the misconceptions people have is that in order [00:03:00] for relationships to be fair, they need to.

Be equal in the sense that both partners need to be doing the same. And Abbey and Liam talk about how at the beginning of their relationship when they first opened up, Abbey actually dated on her own for about two years before Liam ventured to do that himself. During that time, they were having experiences together as well.

And the reason why they made that decision is because Liam found it really hot. For Abbey to go on dates. So he was actually benefiting from it as well. And eventually Abbey also became more comfortable with Liam going on solo dates. And that's just one example of how you don't have to have the exact same rules as your partner as long as everyone in the dynamic feels comfortable with whatever is happening.

And Abbey and Liam are one of those really lucky people that [00:04:00] experience arousal when thinking of their partner being with someone else. I think the majority of people, including myself, experience perhaps jealousy at best. You might feel neutral, but it is rare for people to, to get excited about your partner being with other people.

Maybe not so rare. Let me say, I think there's a lot of people that perhaps don't. One to admit it to themselves, and you might be one of them, and you might realize that if you were able to just accept that that's something that turns you on. You could have a beautiful exploration just like Abbey and Liam, but even if you are not someone that experiences that, I think you'll find this episode interesting because we talk about whether that's something that.

You could work yourself up to.

So I'm hoping that today by listening to Abbey and Liam, perhaps you can discover a little bit more about yourself. Now, as I mentioned in the conversation, if that's not you, if [00:05:00] you do not feel aroused at all by the thought

Of your partner being with someone else, that's totally okay too. But if you do, you might find some inspiration from Abbey and Liam.

Abbey: Abbey and Liam, welcome to Polycurious. I'm so excited to have you back. And for listeners who haven't listened to your first episode and to the episode that I just did with you guys, they can find out there how we met.

Fer: But basically, through Feeld when Liam was on a trip in New York, we went on a date, then Abbey vetod me me,

oh,

so there's some, there's some gossip for listeners out there, but I'm not, I'm not gonna, we're not gonna go back to that because we want them to go and check out your episode and our episode together before that.

But I'm so excited to be able to just have a conversation to get your full story, because even though I know you and you guys are friends, I don't actually really know what's up with your. Polly life if you're even calling yourself Polly. So I'm excited to [00:06:00] live in.

Liam: Yeah,

Abbey: amazing.

Liam: Thank you so much for having us.

We're excited to, to jump back on the microphones with you again.

Abbey: Yeah. We always love chatting with you. So this is a, a real treat.

Fer: Let's start from the beginning with you guys. So I know that you've been together for over a decade, is that right? Like maybe 12, 13 years? What is it?

Abbey: Is that like 15 years or something now?

Yeah, we'll give

Liam: you 15

Abbey: years. Yeah. Yeah. So. When Liam and I, we met together at university. So we met at college and we were very monogamous in the beginning. I feel like looking back at the early days of our relationship, our intensity sort of towards each other, we'd probably be considered a red flag now.

We would definitely love bombing each other. Um, hard,

Liam: very hard,

Abbey: uh, in the way, in the way that we fell for one another. And we, we have a very sweet, um, falling in love story. Basically. I was volunteering at the food co-op at the, at the university that I'd, uh, was going to, and Liam [00:07:00] was performing with his band that night and they had this music night.

And so there were lots of people there. And I was sitting there, uh, in the audience and previous to that gig, I'd started having these, I know this sounds a little bit woo woo, but I'd started having these. I dreams that I was going to, to meet someone and, and you know, he was tall and had this like shaggy dark hair and I mentioned it to my housemate and it became this running joke with the housemates that, you know, I was gonna meet this, you know, this guy shaggy dark hair.

I, I think perhaps maybe I did. And then I was sitting there in the audience with my housemate and Liam started singing and he was really looking at me, and I felt really connected to him. And I, and I nudged my housemate and I said, oh, I think, you know, I think that's the guy from my dream, you know? And I was like, winking.

It was sort of having a bit of a joke. And she was like, you are crazy. And then after the gig she said, oh, why don't you go and speak to him? You should go up. But I could see all of these other, [00:08:00] you know, these girls were going up and chatting, you know, it's like post gig. You know, Liam was like smiling and chatting and I was like, no, no, I, I'm not gonna go up.

Now, that's not my style, but, you know, I, I feel pretty secure that we're going to connect. Um, and so I sent him a lovely message the next day on Facebook Messenger saying. I saw your concert and I just wanted to wish you all the best for your creativity. Um, and then Liam has an interesting version of this too.

Liam: Yeah. So it was, it was quite incredible because, you know, I'd re I'd been out of a relationship for a few months. I was single, I was looking to, to date, and I remember I was standing on stage in the gig and Abbey was just kind of lit up with this amazing situation where all of the lights were focused on the stage.

But there was one light that was broken in the roof, and that light, crazily enough was shining right on Abbey. So this whole performance I spent about, you know, an hour just staring at Abbey, being like, who is that beautiful? Woman in the audience.

Fer: [00:09:00] So you were actually looking at her? That's what one of the

Liam: questions I had.

Yeah. I was genuinely looking at her.

Fer: Yeah.

Liam: Yeah. I was genuinely looking at her. And then I said to all the, all the guys in my band, I said, look, there's this beautiful woman, I've gotta try and find her. After we finish, can you guys pack up my gear so I can go and find her? So they start packing up all the gear.

I go out into the, the audience, I get sidetracked talking to other people, and I try and find Abbey, but she's nowhere to be seen. So sadly too cool. Too cool. She, she played it way too cool. So I, so I go back to the band and say, ah, I couldn't, I couldn't find her. And then unbelievably, she, she slid into the dms, and then from there it was, it was a whirlwind to romance.

Fer: Yes. I love it. I mean, it almost sounds like the definition of love at first sight if there's such a thing, right? Yeah. Like you, you both experienced it and it wasn't just love at first sight from one side. It was from both sides. Sides. And in a concert with a spotlight on Abbey, you know what I mean? It, it almost sounds like it's a made up movie narrative, you know?

Abbey: I [00:10:00] know. It feel, it feels like a romantic comedy. It's sort of

Liam: Yeah, it was cinematic

Abbey: for sure. Yeah, definitely. Definitely cinematic. Um, and then from that point, we, we went on a date a week later and we've just been like, we just locked into each other. So we've just been like a very connected couple, lots of, um, playfulness and freedom and connecting and you know, like I said, love bombing.

I still feel like after all of these years we're still like, have that level of intensity.

Liam: Still love bombing. Yeah.

Abbey: Um. But very monogamous and you know, that that was, at first we didn't start exploring non-monogamy for a, for a couple of years in, I think at that point I'd sort of associated non-monogamy with like, that's like for unhappy people or that's like, you know, that's what people do, you know, after they've been together for like 25 years and the spark is gone and there's like problems.

That's what that's all about. Um, and then at [00:11:00] the end of 2013, Liam and I moved to New York City together from Canberra. And I feel like that is when our world just opened up. And I think it was actually moving to New York City, being exposed to so many different types of people and different ways of being and just, you know, everything felt very like cool.

Um, you know, people were just exploring non-monogamy and it was just like more in the culture. And then we were like really starting to. Explore sort of like kink and BDSM dynamics. So we had a, and we, we had been doing that from pretty early on in our relationship, but I think that was really laying the foundation for trust, for getting to know each other, for vulnerability.

Like that really connected us in, was actually exploring those sorts of dynamics. So then the topic of non-monogamy just came up really organically. We can't even remember whose idea it was. Can you remember [00:12:00] who suggested?

Liam: No, I think it was just a, just a, a classic. Pillow talk conversation. I think we were just discussing, I think initially because you are bisexual, the, the topic of maybe threesomes came up and then naturally it just kind of evolved from there, I think.

Abbey: Yeah, and it was, it came from that place of excitement, of curiosity and like a very sexually driven motivator. Like for that, like we weren't really thinking about polyamory, we weren't really thinking about like dating other people per se. It was just this sort of organic, like, you know, it would be amazing to have this experience if we had that experience.

Would you be jealous or would you be into it? And we both sort of found, you know, that we were both very compersive. We were feeling compersion, but we didn't have any language for that. We didn't know what it meant, but we were just having a lot of, I had fun with the fantasies of it and then. I don't know.

Then situations just started arising. [00:13:00] 

Liam: Yeah. Yeah. We started, we started finding these, initially we had these, these kind of lofty ideals of what the perfect threesome would look like, and, but we didn't really know that many people. So Abbey was at the time, working at this hotel, and Abbey was working with quite a few attractive, uh, she had quite a few attractive colleagues.

And so we'd say, oh, wouldn't it be amazing to, you know, have a threesome with that colleague or we, we were kind of going about it in just a totally bizarre way of, of, uh,

Abbey: we were like the classic sort of unicorn hunting, but like, just talking about it with each other, but like, had no framework around like if that's bad or good, or like, just like blind.

Like, just like,

Liam: yes. Yeah, just, just running, just running through the streets of New York City, just praying that he, this mythical unicorn. We kind of eventuated. We

Abbey: just really wanted to have a threesome. That's really how it started.

Liam: Yeah. And then, and then amazingly a, a colleague of of Abbey's, um, kind of propositioned us.

She [00:14:00] must have kind of picked up what we were putting down.

Abbey: I must have been putting the vibes out. Yeah.

Fer: Nice. Abbey, you have a, a gift for manifesting. You were like, there's this man. And then you find Liam and you're like, oh, what if this colleague was into us and wanted a threesome? And then she's like, oh, actually I am.

You know? But yeah, that sounds super exciting. And that's actually an aspect you guys know that, um, because my partner is monogamous, I actually haven't really gotten to experience too much of play with, with a partner.

liam (2): Mm-hmm.

Fer: And when I did with my secondary partner before we broke up, I had fun. But the first experience definitely.

Brought up some feelings of jealousy and discomfort, and so it's different fantasizing about it than actually doing it. So what happened when and if, because it sounds like it did happen when you actually did have that tri with that coworker. Did the fantasy meet reality or did you also struggle a little bit?

Liam: Oh, I mean, the fantasy definitely, [00:15:00] definitely meant reality for me. Uh, well, it was, it was something that, me too, because we had talked about it so much, we actually already had a framework about what we were comfortable with. So we'd spoken about boundaries and Abbey, you know, we'd, we'd both agreed that, you know, we wouldn't have, um, full penetrative sex.

There would be like a certain parameters around the experience, and we communicated that to, to this particular person. And she was like, yeah, of course that's all good. Like, this is just a fun thing. Like I'm, I'm very respectful of your boundaries. And so we went into it and I think in the moment, the big lesson for us was the importance of not renegotiating the boundaries in the moment.

Abbey: See, the thing is, and that's because I get really carried away and I think it's. You don't know how you're gonna feel until you're in the situation. So I had sort of set these parameters around things based on what I had thought that I would be comfortable with. But when we were in the moment, I was like, oh, actually I feel great.

This is [00:16:00] awesome. Let's like go all the way. Like, you know, just all of those feelings, like, I'm so like comfortable with this, genuinely so comfortable. Um, and then Liam. Was actually the, the keeper of my boundaries. You know, like Liam was like, well, let's not rush. Like Liam's very con considered, and I, I, I am considered as well, but when I get excited, I can be like, oh, let's like go further.

You know? So Liam was like, let's just, you know, we had like, sort of made this array, like, let's just keep what we had decided on. And I was like, okay. Yep, fair enough. And I remember in the moment being like, oh, damn. You know, I really, it would, oh, okay. Like I felt a bit sort of, um, you know, like I was being reigned in because I was like, I'm actually my com compersions through the roof.

Like, you two go for it.

liam (2): Yeah.

Abbey: But I think the fact that Liam, you know, even though we were in that moment, you know, we're in that sort of, that really heightened sexual state, Liam [00:17:00] actually being steadfast and saying, we're not gonna get carried away here in the longer. In the longer story of us and, you know, in the days after and for, you know, the non-monogamy going forward, it actually built a lot of trust and security with Liam for us to be exploring this because he's not like you were very respectful of what my boundary had been, even though I was trying to renegotiate in the moment.

And that came from a deep place of care for me. Um, and just wanting to play it safe. And you've always been really good Yeah. At playing things safe and

Liam: well, I think about things in, in, in the long term. You know, I think about it's, it's not a race to the finish line. You know, we weren't trying to go all the way and get as much experience out of that particular experience as possible.

And I'm just so glad that we did that. And, and that was definitely an internal struggle. There was no shortage of excitement on my end, you know? But, uh,

Fer: yeah, I was gonna say. [00:18:00] 

Liam: Yeah, it was, yeah. It's a, it's a difficult thing in the moment, I think. But, but because we had that great experience where there was that level of restraint and respecting the boundaries, then moving forward, we knew that that just instinctually was the best way for us to approach those situations.

And every time after that that we had different experiences, you know, we, we did push the boundaries further from where we were, you know, like, then suddenly it became, you know,

Abbey: but Well, we adjusted them.

Liam: Yeah.

Abbey: Beforehand.

Liam: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. So, not in the moment. We didn't push the boundaries, but, but we kind of, you know, leading up to it and, and with the partners that we were with, we kind of communicated those things.

Abbey: Yeah. And we also. I think it was after that moment we, and that, that was all wonderful and that was such a positive experience. And I think a lot of that came down to my friendship with her and just who she was as a person. She was already a very open person. She'd been exploring non-monogamy before, so she had that level of experience.

You know, we were the, we were the [00:19:00] newbies.

liam (2): Hmm.

Abbey: Um. From that moment we were like, actually, let's like look into this a little bit more. And I think that's when we started to look into non-monogamy and sort of found out about compersion, about, oh, there's all these different ways of being in a re you know, being in a relationship.

It's, you know, it's not just like you're monogamous, but some people have secret threesomes. Um, or like, there's swinging. We sort of, um, we started to educate ourselves more so we started listening to podcasts. We, you know, we were in New York, so we started to go to different, um, talks and things that were happenings.

Liam: Effy Blue.

Abbey: Yeah, we started going to like, yeah, Effy Blue's Talks. Um, Hacienda at The Hacienda, and I think from then on. It was, we were sort of more in that, um, swinging space or just more sexually led, non-monogamy. Like, definitely not look like we weren't, uh, you know, we weren't dating one-on-one or anything like that.

That sort of came about, you know, a number of years later. It was like [00:20:00] mostly sort of shared experiences. Like we were going to sex parties together. We were, you know, all of that.

Fer: Yeah. Well, thank you for sharing. I think that what you mentioned about not changing the agreements halfway and even just having agreements before is so important because I think that going back to the jealousy, I know that you are naturally compersive, and perhaps I'm not, uh, not perhaps, I'm not as naturally co conversive as, as you guys are, but I also think that how jealous you get or how co conversive you feel does have to do with how safe you feel.

Right? Right. So I think what happened to me when I had that tri and it was really just the first experience that the experiences we had after that with the same person were great. And even that one was great, right? That's the other thing. Like you can feel jealousy and also being be aroused and have fun and, and all of that.

But I think the issue with that was that because it was with my secondary partner and not with my primary partner, I was like. Oh, we don't need agreements and aftercare and whatever. Right? [00:21:00] So, so then I think what was hard for me was that, you know, he ended up coming with her and then we didn't have aftercare because I had to go, and then he stayed with her for like a week after that.

And you know, it was like the whole situation created the conditions for the jealousy. Right? Because we didn't talk about it beforehand because I didn't feel necessarily super safe afterwards. Right. So I think that for listeners out there, the lesson is whatever experience you're gonna have, especially if it's the first time.

Do talk about it. Do have agreements, and yes, as sexy as it feels in the moment, as as tempted as you are, don't break those, right? Mm-hmm. And take your time. So I really, I really love that. And also what you mentioned about going to workshops, and I know not everyone has the exposure to those things.

Definitely New York is one of the places that has the most, but there's so much stuff online, right? Like,

Abbey: [00:22:00] yes,

Fer: I have a patron. There's our podcasts, you know, there's workshops and things you can buy, and there's books. There's so much. That you can do to research before even doing anything. And actually the couple that I interviewed this week as well, I think they spend like a year, you know, just going to workshops and learning about it before even doing anything right.

And not necessarily that that's a way to do it, but I definitely think that it's important to inform yourself and go to community events and meet other non-monogamous people. And you know, all of those things that you mentioned. Sounds like you were going at it the right way from the very beginning, you know?

Liam: Well, the aftercare piece is super important that you mentioned just then, because I remember the first time I ever went on a solo date, just the logistics of that was I went on the solo date, I think on the Friday night and it was kind of a big deal for us. 'cause Abbey had been solo dating for probably maybe a, a year before that.

And

a

Abbey: couple of years,

Liam: yeah, a couple of years. And so this, it had come time where we all felt comfortable and Abbey and myself felt comfortable with me going on a [00:23:00] solo date. And so I went, I remember it was up in Harlem and we were in Brooklyn, and so there was this huge commute to get to and from the date and the next day, the next morning on the Saturday morning, I was driving out of town out of New York to go away for a few days for work.

And so we didn't really factor in the importance of the aftercare after that. First initial, so date. So, because it was so far uptown, you know, it took me, you know, at two o'clock in the morning, it took me like two hours to get home. So by the time I got home I was raped. I mean,

Abbey: you should have just got an Uber and I said that to you.

Yeah, get the Uber.

Liam: I was like, I was like, no, I'll battle through the subway, you know, doing all the line changes.

Fer: Uber's so expensive from Harim to Brooklyn. But, but yes. But he should have taken the Uber.

Liam: Oh, totally, totally. But then I, I went away and then the issue was that we weren't able to kind of reconnect after that, after that very, you know, big experience for us.

Abbey: Yeah. Because I was feeling really good when you were on the date. I felt good sort of immediately after, but then it was the days, [00:24:00] it was those days afterwards I was spiraling and um, and I think also I was at home, I think all that weekend with our baby, because we had a baby then, and we were just sort of in this different.

You were away for days. I was with the baby and then I was like, oh no. Like, you know, do you, are you like falling in love with her? Like I just sort of went a bit. Mad or something internally. Yeah.

Liam: And I, and I was busy, so I was,

was

Abbey: You couldn't comfort me.

Liam: Yeah. I couldn't comfort you. 'cause I was kind of out of, out of con the ability to contact you.

So it was, it was almost like the, the worst case scenario of aftercare.

Abbey: Yeah. Yeah. A, a lesson. That was a lesson.

Fer: Right? Right. Because aftercare is not just after you have kinky sex or after you have a threesome or anything like that. It's also after your partner goes on a date. Right? Like what are you doing to connect before and after?

And that's also really important. That's so interesting that you started dating separately [00:25:00] as you had your kid. How did that conversation come about? Sounds like you were doing things together for about two years. I don't know if there were any kind of hiccups during that process, but sounds like because you are naturally compersive, because you would talk about the experiences before and after because you respected your boundaries, whatever like it, it seems like that went easier.

Sounds like, am I getting that right? And then how did the idea of. Dating separately come about?

Abbey: Well, that came about because Liam and I were having different experiences of compersion. So Liam, I would say, uh, you know, at that point, and, and perhaps now like you just have a, like Liam has a very, like, very compers, very comfortable, and it just felt like you were very.

Into me dating separately if that was something that I wanted to do. You were like, if you wanna do that, that's great. And [00:26:00] like, actually I find it really hot. Like that's a Yeah. You know, and I

Fer: like she, she has a little bit of a hot wiping kink.

Abbey: Yeah. Hot, hot wiping kink. So it was like sort of in that realm.

So that sort of made it more available to us. But we've always, we've never tried to have like a balanced situation. It's like just because Liam is more comfortable with that doesn't mean that I need to then say, okay, well that's what I get to do. So then you get to do that too. We've just never really take, taken that.

Taken that on. So, and Liam was very comfortable. He was like, look, you know, I feel really comfortable with you dating, and if you are not comfortable with me dating, that's totally fine, and if you're not comfortable with it, I'm not really particularly drawn to it. So it felt very easy for us to navigate that, and we were still having shared experiences together as well.

And then it was years later, I, I, I broached it. I was like, you know what? Actually I feel ready, I feel excited. Um, and I guess I [00:27:00] also have some like hot, hot husbanding, um, you know, fetish, fetish tendencies.

Fer: Kink.

Abbey: Yeah. I find it really hot as well. Um, but I'm a little bit, I can get a little bit more insecure with Liam or things can tip me.

So it just took me a little bit of time to be like, yeah, I'm actually really on board. And then I think it also came down to the right sort of person and circumstance. And so then it felt like a really positive thing.

Liam: And it felt, yeah, it did feel really positive also because it wasn't rushed and because it came from a very genuine place.

I think at the very beginning when we, we, we broached Abbey going on solo dates, I was extremely comfortable with that. I felt super secure in our relationship. I was, as you said, super turned on by it. And at that time I, I didn't feel like going on solo dates myself, you know, we were having these amazing sexual experiences together with, with other women and, you know, there was that interaction that was super sexually fulfilling.

But I think over time. Certainly there, there [00:28:00] was an, an interest that sparked within me, like, oh, maybe it would be really fun. Maybe I would like to feel those, that first date energy again, like that, that would be a crazy feeling to feel whilst being married. And so over the course of the week,

Fer: probably witnessing Abbey going

Liam: through

Fer: that as well.

Liam: Yeah, totally. And so. So, yeah, I was, I was really happy that we waited. Um, and you know, as time went on, it became a more active conversation. And I think by the time it actually came about, obviously the aftercare was, was, was, you know, we, we learned our lessons from that. But I think a good lesson that we learned.

You know, overall was just, just this sense of being comfortable with there being an asymmetry in the relationship with experiences. You know, because if it's tit for tat and you went on a date, so I go on a date and sometimes we see that, you know, with, with Nonmonogamous friends and people within our community is, is that people are very fastidious about, you know, well you went on a date last week, so now it's my turn to go on a date and if, if, if I don't go on a date, then it starts to become this kind of mental [00:29:00] arithmetic of like, you did that, I did this, you know, and then it's, and I feel like that is a dangerous place to be in as a, as a non monogamous couple.

Yeah,

Abbey: I think one of the things that I learned as well from my own dating, my own separate dating, the big lesson for me was that even though I was dating and I was having new relationship energy and forming connections and um, you know, having these wonderful, intense feelings, I never lost my connection to Liam ever.

If anything, I felt closer to Liam, and I think that that was really important for me to have that experience over a bit of a sustained period of time to then go, well, you know, my love for Liam is not less, like this isn't, this isn't bringing a problem for us. This is actually, this is actually fine. So it's sort of, it took this sort of unknown element out of it in a way where I was like, actually, you know, why would Liam just stop being [00:30:00] into me and just become like obsessed with some new person that he's dating and then I'm not appealing anymore.

It just, because that didn't happen. I didn't have that experience myself.

Fer: Right.

Abbey: But I still got insecure with the, you know, he was away on the weekend, so things still come up. But that was a, that was really big for me.

Fer: Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's also a reason why I think asymmetry can be good sometimes, because even if you do want to balance things out, it can actually help to move that in, to move in that direction again, not that you have to, right?

Like, I mean, I'm the, I'm the best example of that, right? Like, so this monogamous, and I'm not monogamous, and she, he's never felt like he needs to date because I date and I've never felt like I should be monogamous because he's not dating. And I actually. Do see in a lot of poly and non-monogamous circles, people making that mistake as you, as you were saying, of like, oh, I can't date because my partner is too jealous.

So then I told them that they can't date either. And it's like, well, but if your partner is more [00:31:00] jealous, but you don't feel jealous when they date, why don't you let them date for a little bit? And maybe they'll realize that it's not just like Abbey did, right? Like that is not going to detract from your relationship.

And then they'll be like, actually, I think I feel okay. Or like, you can get there at some point if you want to or not. And there can always be an asymmetry in how you do things. And I, I, I think that's another great lesson of just being okay with things not being equal and, and not letting people judge, right?

Mm-hmm. Because there's a lot of judgment, right? Of like, oh, you can't date, but you are letting your partner date. Like, how does that work? And of course, if like you really want to date and you can't. And it does feel super unfair to see your partner dating. Maybe you'll be like, no, actually I don't want them to do it.

Not because I, I experienced jealousy necessarily, but because it's still difficult for me because I cannot do it. Right. Like it can also work that way. Mm-hmm. But there's a thousand ways in which you can structure the relationship and you just have to be honest with how you feel, [00:32:00] and you probably will feel differently than your partner.

And your triggers are going to be different than your partners. So you just have to work around those triggers and, and yeah. That often means that you have different rules, you know, and, and it's totally okay to do that. But yeah. I also love Abbey that you felt even more connected to Liam and mm-hmm.

That's also a, a topic that I find fascinating because I do feel like. On the one hand, non-monogamy does make you feel more connected to your partner because you remember what new relationship energy is like and you kind of bringing into the, your relationship or you, because you feel grateful that your partner is allowing you to have this exploration.

And I've experienced that myself, but I've also experienced. Feeling a little bit, maybe not disconnected, but distracted from my relationship by, you know, being in a, being into a new person and experiencing the new relationship energy and, and all of that, right? But I think my relationship is [00:33:00] different in that I don't really talk to my partner much about my dates and my experiences and all of that, right?

But for you two, it's always been something that even turns you on, right? Mm-hmm. So it does bring you together every time because you can come back and be like, I had this amazing date. This is what happened. And then, you know, have amazing sex or whatever, right? But I can't do that. So, so it would sometimes create a little bit of.

Of, again, maybe not total disconnection, but distraction like of like, uh, I, there's like this going on in my life that I can't fully share with my partner, or I'm just like really into this new person and, and my energies are here and I'm not, you know, connected to, to Seth, which is, you know, one of the reasons that I've been taking a break from non-monogamy.

And, but it's just interesting to kind of reflect on how it can work in different ways, right? Because I think generally speaking, it does make you feel more connected to your partner. And I think that that's the misconception that a lot of people have about [00:34:00] non-monogamy that, oh, if you do that, then.

That's going to affect your relationship with your partner. It usually affects it positively, right? Yeah. Like most of the times. But not always. But I'm really glad to hear that. For you it always was k kind of like a point of connection. It has been. And is to this day a point of connection when you have experiences with other people.

'cause you do, sounds like you do share a lot about your relationships with others, right?

Abbey: Yeah, we do. Yeah, we do. We do

Liam: with each other. Yeah. Yeah. With

Fer: each other, for

Liam: sure. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. It, it feels like we're both on the same team having this amazing adventure together. You know? That's, that's how it feels to me.

And we're both creatives outside of non-monogamy as well. But I feel like being a creative person, both of us being creative people, the ultimate. Expression of creativity is actually our own relationship. And so it feels like this incredible project that we're both on together, that we're just constantly evolving and, and moving, you know, in interesting directions.

And it's just the [00:35:00] opposite of boring. It's like the opposite of stasis for me.

liam (2): Yeah.

Liam: So I think. The, what really feeds into that sense of this adventure is actually being able to communicate it with each other, and both being open to being on the adventure together

Abbey: mm-hmm.

Liam: I think is just an absolute gift.

Mm. And for us and our particular relationship, it just works perfectly.

Abbey: Mm-hmm. It does. Yeah. It does work really well. But, you know, of course, like any relationship, of course we have things that we, you know, have to navigate and there are new experiences and we have, you know, we get activated by different things in different ways sometimes It is incredibly surprising.

So, and also sitting with the, with the reality of like, many things can be true at once. Like the first time that I started separate dating was with this wonderful man who, another friend of ours actually, um, you know, she had been dating him a while back, and then she said, I think that you would really like him and, and connected.

And then it was all really wonderful. It was really [00:36:00] positive. It was so positive. For all three of us to the point where that actually also really overwhelmed me because looking back at that situation, it actually became pretty polyamorous very quickly. And I hadn't had, you know, intense sort of feelings for somebody like that.

You know? I mean, O obviously different, it was very different to the feelings that I had for you, Liam, but I had very like, almost like the addictive feelings that you have, like that really intense, and I felt very overwhelmed by that. And it did destabilize me a little bit. And I remember one day I was quite emotional.

Liam, do you remember? Yeah, yeah. I was like, I had tears in my eyes because I had these big feelings for this new person and it was scaring the crap out of me because I think perhaps it was. You know, any other time when I'd had big feelings like that, that usually means that's the beginning of something really profound.

Mm. But then [00:37:00] thinking about how does that fit in with our relationship? And of course things simmer down and everything was fine, but you held that so well in a way that I don't think I would've been able to hold if Liam came to me and was like, I'm so overwhelmed because I'm so into this new woman. I think I would've just passed out.

Liam: Yeah. Yeah. I remember. Yeah, I remember that being, we had a lot of conversations around that time, I think, because, you know, Abbey did feel these overwhelming feelings towards this guy. And I was also navigating how I felt about Abbey having those feelings. And it definitely wasn't easy. And whilst I did hold the space, you know, I had to do a lot of processing.

And there's a lot of kind of unpacking of these traditional tropes of masculinity where we're taught to, to really protect your partner and you've gotta fight for your partner and you know, anyone who's a potential, uh, trespasser on, on that, um, kind of relationship, you have to [00:38:00] almost go into overdrive to kind of protect it.

And so I started to grapple with some of those things. It's like, you know, is it. Am I being a good partner by letting this kind of happen or like witnessing this happen and, and not trying to change it. And so, you know, I had to have those kind of deep kind of philosophical conversations with myself in order to then get to a space where I was able to kind of hold space for you and the intense things.

And I also love the dude as well. Like, he's, he's the nicest guy. And so I was like, oh, I don't wanna, you know, I don't want that to end. And he's awesome and like, we have a great time all hanging out. This is kind of the perfect situation, but this is like very intense, very quickly.

Fer: I'd be curious to hear Liam, and I think I might have asked something similar last time as well, but I'm, I'm really impressed by how you really analyze that toxic masculinity or patriarchal culture or however we want to call it.

And you, you kind of [00:39:00] recognize. Your hesitations around letting Abbey have this experience with another man, having to do with these ideas of having to protect your woman or whatever, right? Mm-hmm.

liam (2): So

Fer: any advice for men that might be struggling with that? Like what did you do? I know that you, you said something like, I had philosophical conversations with myself, but I mean, I don't know.

I don't know if everyone can do that. So do you have any advice for other men that might be struggling with that? For example, with the one penis policy, right? Like they're totally fine if their woman dates other women, right? But if it's, if, if it's a man, then they, they have an insecurity. And I don't know if you've experienced that, but that's the kind of thing that they might recognize, oh, this is obviously sexist.

Yes, but that doesn't mean that I can change how I feel. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm.

 If you want to listen to the answer to this question, you can head on to my Patreon

where I have a very interesting conversation with Abbey and Liam on toxic masculinity [00:40:00] and how to overcome it. And if you decide to subscribe you'll get access to a lot more bonus content from Polycurious, as well as the recording from my meetups on different topics and solo episodes where I give advice and talk about my personal experiences.

So go ahead and check that out by following the link in the show notes. And once you subscribe, you can come back and listen to the rest of this episode.

Fer (2): back to your story, so, uh, sounds like this relationship sounds like this relationship, kind of, you know, as, as it happens to all of us, and your relationship energy was overwhelming. But then eventually this person moved away, so it kind of naturally faded a little bit. Right. But, how have you evolved from there?

Have you still had that, those like overwhelming new relationship energy experiences and obviously the first one is always the toughest one because as you were saying, [00:41:00] Abbey, you then start kind of questioning like, is there space in my life for this person? I, I remember what happened to me the first time.

I would think about, oh, what if I wanna go on trips with this person? And that wasn't Seth was okay with at the time. And then, you know, it's funny, I'm talking about a person that maybe I met two times, you know what I mean? But like, when you're in that like new relationship energy, you are just like, oh my God.

Like I want all the things. And then you start having anxiety of like, can I have this in my life with my current relationship? And then it becomes like overwhelming and difficult. Which sounds like what was what you were experiencing, but how have your. Experiences been since, as you I'm sure, or, well, I'm not sure, but I would imagine maybe you have, again, fallen in love with someone else.

How, how has that evolved?

Abbey: Yeah, so I would say. There's just more, there's still been intensity for, for other men that I've dated, uh, the years. But I would say that I just have a bit more of an understanding of [00:42:00] myself and I just sort of, I know what's going to happen. Like I know that if I meet someone and we've, you know, over the years we've had connections and there have been those feelings.

There's been that strong level of attraction there. I know that when I start sleeping with somebody, I get the feels. And it's like, that's just that thing that's going to happen. And there are those, you know, all of those feelings that come up. But I'd say that there's more, I'm just a bit more grounded in myself.

And I think that comes from experience. And I think it also comes from the stage of life that I'm in. So when I was first seeing that first, uh, that I had where it was very intense, I was also at a point, we were at a point in our lives where it was actually completely, um, okay to get really swept up in that, in like a pretty intense way because I had some more time.

Um, I wasn't a mom at that point and there was just like more time to like [00:43:00] relish in the deliciousness of all of that new relationship energy. And I would say that now, you know, I'm a mom now. Like we, you know, we have a, uh, a 7-year-old and so life, whilst there are those big crushes and things that happen.

It's like when I'm home, when I'm with my family, when I'm in that role, I can't help but sort of get, I sort of get pulled back into my family life in this sort of intense way. So, um, you know, which is the way that it needs to be.

Fer: How about on the other side? So when Liam has fallen for someone else, if it has happened?

'cause it sounds like generally speaking, even though you also have a little bit of that hot hus, husbanding candle, hot husbanding,

Liam: not a turn,

Fer: whatever, whatever you say it, um, you know, maybe sounds like maybe it's a little bit easier for Liam generally speaking. Like, sounds like you experienced jealousy maybe a little bit more than Liam, even though you're also super compersive.[00:44:00] 

So how was it when, when Liam went through that, if that has ever happened?

Abbey: Yeah, so I'm not sure if, I don't think, you know, to my knowledge that you have actually like really fallen in like love, love with somebody. Um, and I think that that would probably be a little bit trickier for me to navigate, but.

In saying that you're a very loving person. And there have been an, there have been a couple of people, there's one partner in particular that I think of where you have had a really strong, she's actually monogamous now with, um, another partner. So we are more in the friendship space with her. But, you know, you had really strong feelings for her.

I also have a love for her, like, as a, like a, not a romantic love, but like a sisterhood love. And I feel so strongly towards her in the sense that like, I feel so comfortable with her. I adore her so much [00:45:00] and I love the connection that you and her had. Um, you know, that was almost to the point where I said to Liam.

You know, if something were to ever happen to me, I actually feel really comfortable. If you were one day going to like repartner, you know, like if something, you know, God forbid got dark, like I actually, it got dark. But that, but to me that was me showing how much I adored her. You kept, yeah, you care how much I care for her.

I was like, I actually could see her. You know, like if something happened, she could be there. You know, like I love how she's with our son. Like, just things like that. And I think Liam, you got really emotional. You were like, why are you talking about it? Yeah. I don't stop it. Like even

Liam: you're talking about it now.

Abbey: I know I don't like, but I just, yeah. But I'm, I know of course you don't like it. It's a hypothetical, but I'm saying that I, I see

Liam: your point.

Abbey: That's a conversa. It's like, I wouldn't have had that conversation years ago. That's like not, it's like would've been illegal for someone to be that close to us, where I would feel that that could ever be a [00:46:00] possibility.

Fer: Generally speaking, I think what you're saying is when I know the person, which, you know, we've talked about before, right? Because, because you didn't know me when

Abbey: Yeah.

Fer: When Liam and I went on a date. Um, but yeah, when you know the person. You, it's a lot easier for you. You know, and it's, I think it's like really interesting to talk to you guys, because I do see you as a super strong couple, super healthy.

And I also see my relationship with Seth that way, right? And we have,

Abbey: yeah,

Fer: completely different approaches to non-monogamy, right? So I love it because I want to show people that there's many ways of doing it, and it depends on your personality, right? And, and you guys are very compersive. And I actually wanted to ask you about that because I don't want people to hear you and be like, why can't I, no, not, you know, get aroused about my partner being with other people, or, or just be happy about my partner being with other, being with other people, and supportive and all of those things.

So. I guess you might not have the answer to this, but do you have any [00:47:00] idea of where that comparison comes from or how to cultivate it if people don't have it? Also, again, knowing that it's totally okay if you don't experience it and you can still have a healthy relationship that will look totally different for, from your relationship.

But I imagine some people might be like, man, I wish I could share everything with my partner and be so compersive, and not everyone can do that. So any thoughts around the topic of co compersion?

Liam: I think kind of back to the, we've had, uh, Dr. Marie Thouin on, um, on our podcast a few times, and she wrote this incredible book called What is Compersion?

And that's a great resource that I, I would recommend for people. But when we've discussed it with her, we've talked about whether compersion is almost like a muscle that you can kind of work on. It's like, go to the gym for your compersion. And I, I wonder about that because. I have always felt very naturally compersive.

And that is a, that is a feeling that I have felt instinctually in a [00:48:00] embodied sense as well as in a theoretical sense. And I think initially when I started seeing other people as well and going on solo dates, Abbey also felt compersion. But it was more of the, the heady com compersion of like, I, I, I like that you are having a great experience and I'm, you're feeling, you know, there was a lot of other things kind of competing at the same time.

So in terms of like building. You know, in terms of trying to build and and nurture compersion, I think that the best way to do that is just by feeling super secure and safe within your relationship to express how you are feeling and kind of creating the foundations where you know, those honest and very real conversations can happen.

Mm. Because if you don't have that, that foundational aspect, it's very difficult to, to. To express that, oh, actually I am excited for you to go on a date. I'm excited for you to see this guy. Or go to a sex party and watch you with other people if you feel that there might be a kind of [00:49:00] a resistance to that or, or maybe, you know, uh, kind of a, a different experience that the partner might have.

So, yeah, I, I, I guess that's where my mind goes.

Abbey: I would say that my compersion, um, mostly, I think it's quite a selfish compersion. It's like, I feel coersive for like, I have compersion for your, um, you know, experiences. If I am like feeling some kind of arousal or like, you know, there's some kind of gratification that I'm like getting from this situation.

I think that's kind. So

Fer: for, it's more sexual.

Abbey: For me, it's been more sex sexual as where I will feel compersion. Like when it's like more of a, just say if you're going bouldering with someone or you're going for a walk with someone. I feel more neutral about that. Yeah. And it's not that I'm like, oh, you know, I'm upset about it or it's a bad thing.

I'm happy about it in the sense that like, I'm happy that you are happy, but I'm not [00:50:00] like having this, like, I'm not like, oh my gosh. And like, and then what did you two talk about next with the blah, blah, blah? Like if it's something like really interesting, like if it's something and Liam is

Fer: more like that.

Abbey: Yeah. Or like,

Liam: I'm kind of, everything I, I'd say that I'm,

Abbey: everything

Liam: I, I'd say that I'm. I, I, I love all of the aspects of it. Like, and this is what I mean by just being naturally very compersive. And it's a difficult thing. You know, it's, it's, it's hard to talk about it. 'cause it seems like, I'm almost exaggerating the levels of compersion.

I feel it's like I'm, I'm missing a little part of my brain that stops me from being compersive. You know, it's like

Abbey: Liam's like, you know, if I'm chatting with someone or like, you know, dating someone, Liam's like, oh my gosh, can you two? What if you go on a little holiday together? And I'm like, what? Like when am I going on this holiday?

Like, for how long? Liam's like, I don't know. Like what, you know, it doesn't have to be two or three nights. Like you could go here, you know, something like you are sort of [00:51:00] like that as well. I probably wouldn't be like. You know, like, oh, you should go on this like, holiday with another woman. Like, it's just not something that, like, I wouldn't sort of go to it in that way.

But my compersion also, I feel like my, it's a little bit, gets a bit weird. Like I have, so when you talk about as a muscle, so like, you know, something to build, it's like I do, okay. If we're gonna get a little bit explicit here, like I do when I'm like alone by myself and I'm having my own, okay, paint us a picture like my, my own time where I'm, you know, I'm with myself or whatever.

Liam: Okay.

Abbey: It's very compersion led. Like, I really enjoy imagining you with another woman. And then my compersion is not always what I would want it to be in reality. So like, I have these fantasies where like, you know, I'm at home. Whatever, you know, being sweet, baking, you know, being like a cute, I don't know, like being a mom, like whatever.[00:52:00] 

And you are like out at work, but then you like have a mistress and you like drop in on her and have like a little affair on the way home. And I don't this happen and I don't know anything about it, but it's like, that's not, that's like, I find that like that sort of thing really turns me on. Mm-hmm. So I have a lot of compersion for that, but like, I don't know how that kind of translate to the translates to the real world.

Liam: Oh, you would

Abbey: love it. You know, so it's like very layered. It's like there's compersion sort of, you know, at varying levels, different situations. Um, yeah. But I do, when you are dating somebody, I want you to be happy. And what I love about you dating, the compersion that I have, and maybe this is again, it makes it selfish, is that when you come home after being on a date.

You are like really happy,

Liam: so happy,

Abbey: which then makes me feel really good. You also give me a lot of attention, like, not that you don't give me attention, but it's like you have this sort of like, hi. Like, hi, how are you? You know, [00:53:00] what have you been doing? I love you. And like, you know, it's like you have this, like maybe because you know, I can be a bit more insecure.

You sort of like, so I enjoy that. It's like, oh, you know, you get, I get a little more like attention something.

Liam: So it's the moral of the story that I need to get a mistress. Is that the

Abbey: No.

Liam: Oh, okay. Okay.

Abbey: No, don't like have an affair. Like that's not, but you know, but also in complicated.

Liam: But also another thing as well is that, uh, you, you can't gaslight yourself into being com person.

No. Because I see that sometimes of people being like, I'm compersive. I'm, I'm into this. But ultimately it's gotta come from a very real place of, of genuinely being compersive. You can't kind of intellectualize your way into an embodied sense of compersion. You can't be saying that you are feeling physically com in a situation when you actually genuinely don't feel that way in the hope that your body will catch up to what your mouth is saying.

Fer: Well, I think that we're talking about three different things, right? It's interesting, there's like, you called it physical compression, but I [00:54:00] would call it. Arousal, you know? Yeah. Like the hot erotic or HUS or hot husband, husband or whatever it is, the erotic compression, right? And then there's the kind of conceptual compression of the concept of you being happy makes me happy.

But that doesn't mean that the third type of co compersion, which is not sexual nor conceptual, which is like, you come back from a date and I'm like, oh, I'm so happy that you had a great date. Right? Like that's another type of compression. Right? So, so I think there's, you know, there's many different types we're talking about, but I guess I also want people to know again, that if you don't feel well, I guess.

You should at least feel the conceptual one. Right? Like, you should want your partner to be happy. Yeah. But if you don't feel the other two, I think most people don't. Right. And as, as Liam was saying, like you can't, like force yourself into, into feeling that if it's not, if it's, if it doesn't come naturally to you, you can experiment with it, right?

Like you can fantasize about it or things like [00:55:00] that. And see, and you might realize that maybe you didn't allow yourself to be aroused by that, but it does make you aroused. But Yeah, without necessarily forcing it. So, yeah. But thank you for explaining how that all works for you. I find it super interesting.

So tell me, where are you guys now in your journey? Do you have any partners? I know, as you said. After you had your kid, you're still non-monogamous and everything, but you don't have the same type of availability to be drowning in new relationship energy or whatever I'm doing. You know, now that I'm, I don't have a child, but, but yeah.

How are things now and how has your relationship evolved since, you know, those first times that we were just talking about?

Liam: You wanna get? Well, I'm about to go looking for a mistress. That's right. That's, that's what I've been learning from this conversation now. Yeah. I think things have definitely evolved and we're at a place now where we're [00:56:00] very aware of.

The sense that we can be very specific about what it, how connections can be totally different depending on the person. And we're not thinking about labels in terms of, oh, we're polyamorous, so we've gotta do exactly what it, you know, says on the tin for polyamory. Or we've gotta do exactly what it says on the tin for swinging, or whatever it might be.

And I think at the moment, all of the connections that we have are incredibly intentional, which is amazing. And we have very different kind of ways in which we approach those relationships.

Abbey: Mm-hmm.

Liam: Um, so you, you know,

Abbey: well, you, I would say that you, you are feeling a little bit of like n we're feeling a bit NRE the moment.

Liam: Got little. I got a little situation on

Abbey: Well, you, yeah,

Liam: yeah,

Abbey: yeah. And we have, I haven't met her, but we have a little group chat going and she,

Liam: yeah, she's super cool.

Abbey: Yeah. Yeah, I would say, um, like where I'm at, I, when I'm dating people, I tend to like, if I like someone and we are dating and they like me and we have a connection and it works, [00:57:00] it'll be a very like, long-term thing for me.

So like, I have been seeing one person for quite a long time, for like five years and he lives interstate. Oh wow. But he would, there have been times where like he has gone and been in a monogamous relationship. Um, you know, so our connection really sort of has to, has to go quiet for that time, completely out of respect for that.

And. Yeah, and it's really interesting because it's that kind of dynamic with him. We don't really maintain a friendship, friendship when there are those periods of monogamy. There's just like this understanding because we don't really have, we have a lover ship, we have like an erotic connection and I don't think it's like appropriate for us to be friends if he is going through that monogamous relationship.

So, you know, then they broke up and then [00:58:00] we reconnected again and it's looking like monogamy is on the cards for him again. Now, um, you know, sort of reading the room, um, you know, from like messages that we've had. So, and that's an interesting place to be in because, you know, I have so much in my life already with, you know, Liam and our son and, you know, friendships and then other lovers as well.

Um, and that's just an example, but this is sort of an example of like, you know, I need to have that strong base in myself, that stability because, you know, things can happen and things can change. And I think, you know, I've never sort of had the belief of like, okay, well he's gone monogamous, so like boo to him, you know, I'm like rejected or anything because it's actually not about me being rejected.

It's the circumstances. And, you know, I can't offer a big. Commitment, love in [00:59:00] the way that, you know, he would, you know, is ultimately probably looking for. And he is never, not looking for that within me. Has never tried to, is very respectful and understands the situation. Um, yeah. And then just I would say that I don't have like a, like I don't have another sort of intense like polyamorous partner, you know, at the moment, but I have, I have other lovers, but there is more of a friendship there with them too.

So it's sort of in that gray area of like, it's not casual, it's not a casual situation, it's ongoing and there is a care and an neuroticism and a closeness. Um, but there's not that sort of anchoring into each other's lives. Um, you know, in the way that I am with Liam or like needing to check in every day.

Like, I don't feel like I need to, you know, I'm not sort of beholden to other people or like if I'm dating, [01:00:00] if I'm dating somebody, but then if I like to connect with somebody else, I don't feel like I need to, like, I don't have to like tell them in the way that they don't have to tell me there's autonomy.

And I think that's really important. And over the years we've had situations where, you know, I did, you know, a number of years ago, I did date somebody who really, who was comfortable with me being with Liam, but he wasn't comfortable with me then dating other people. And that was a real learning experience because by that stage, when that started to present itself, I was very, you know, I was very connected with him.

I was very attached to him and I really had to like reconcile where I was at with that because ultimately. His, his sort of boundaries around my relationship with him was impacting my marriage because Liam and I are very open and we also like to have experiences together and have this playful element, and that impacted too [01:01:00] much on my marriage.

There was sort of rules coming because you

Fer: couldn't have a threesome if you wanted or

Abbey: whatever.

Fer: Right? Totally.

Abbey: Totally. So I'm very, anything that's, I need to keep my autonomy and I need to be able to. Mm-hmm. My main connection here is with Li like if it's, it would be very different if there was a Liam for some reason was like, can you not date people at the moment, because I'm going through something or there's some sort of external thing that's like very different.

But having another partner sort of, I let him into the point where he felt comfortable. Sort of putting parameters around me and that was a real learning experience. So it's really the balance of closeness and freedom with other partners.

Fer: Yeah,

Abbey: yeah,

Fer: yeah. You know, I'm glad you brought that up. 'cause I actually went through the same with, with my secondary partner.

And that's basically the reason why we broke up. Because right there came a point [01:02:00] where I realized I wanted my autonomy. One of the reasons, I think there were a couple, but, and you know, he was okay with me not telling him to appoint, but he wanted to know if he knew the person. And I, I just felt, I just felt like restricted.

Right. And I just felt like this is, this is something that, that I would totally do for Seth, but Seth is not even asking me that. You know what I mean? Said, let me do whatever I want. And then there's this other person that. That I felt, even though I'm sure he doesn't, you know, he wouldn't agree with this, but I felt like he, he's, he was restricting me, you know?

Liam: Yes.

Fer: Yeah.

Liam: Yeah.

Abbey: For sure.

Liam: Yeah.

Fer: Cool. And then Liam, you sound like you have an NRE connection right now. Yeah. Is that, is, are we leaving it at that or the,

Liam: the

Fer: phone's buzzing. Are you gonna give more details?

Liam: The phone is, the phone is buzzing, which is lovely. Um, yeah, we've. Go on a date, second date is in the works.

I mean, one thing that is difficult about Australia is that all the cities are [01:03:00] very far apart. It's not like America where it's like, you know, things are a little bit closer together, or certainly Europe. And so, you know, oftentimes our connections that we have with other people are in different cities, not necessarily in Canberra, which is like, where we live is a very small place, you know, field, you could probably swipe, you know, for about one minute.

And then you've exhausted all the people that are in the, the dating pool of at least non-monogamy within field in Canberra. So, um, yeah. So, uh, it's, it's kind of limited, I think a little bit the NRE and maybe heightened by the, the distance between us. Mm-hmm. Because it means that we have to, we have to wait.

Um, but uh, yeah, so it's, it's kind of logistics dependent is when the, when the second date is gonna happen, which is a common theme. It seems fair.

Abbey: Anticipation.

Fer: Oh yeah. Well, I hope she doesn't have to wait, you know, five years. Like, like, like I am waiting for that second, second date. Um, [01:04:00] but so generally speaking, sounds like your connections are, you know, friends with benefits like, you know, between friends with benefits and partnership.

Yeah. Cool. Awesome. Okay, last question for you guys. I usually end my interviews asking, what would you tell to a Polycurious person? So basically any last words of wisdom that you might have when someone, you know, might come up to you and say, I just discovered non-monogamy. Like, what should I know, you know, or what do you wish that you knew when, when you started your own journey?

Abbey: I think that my advice is follow what feels good, listen to other people's stories. Be curious about what stories of other people connect with you and why, and follow those feel good feelings. Don't get too caught up in like all of the fear-based things straight away. Um, either like what excites you, you [01:05:00] know, and then get some, seek some guidance along the way.

And of course, listen to, you know, Polly Curious podcast, different podcasts that are happening. You know, there a lot

Fer: of

Abbey: podcast. Uh, we have the podcast too, evolving love. Um, but you know, be open, listen, talk, and if you are already in a partnership with somebody, a monogamous partnership, and you're thinking of opening up, um, it's really fun to talk in hypotheticals.

Where it's not like, this is what I want. It's like a how would you feel if not saying that I want that, but how would you feel if, because I think always, yeah, I love that. Anything that sparks a conversation, um, and a new train of thought can be a really positive thing.

Fer: Yeah. Yeah. Because so many things can happen, right?

And yeah, I think as you said, also learning from other people's experiences. And I think a great way of doing that is listening to podcasts, but also reading your writing, Abbey, which I will make sure to link in the show notes as well as as your podcast. 'cause you write [01:06:00] really honestly about your experience, including, you know, the experience that we had about you vetoing me and all that.

Totally. That's, I'll also add that to the, to the show notes as well if people want to check it out.

Abbey: One of you, one of my big regrets, but that's okay.

Fer: No, I think, honestly, I think I love all the content that has come out of it, so I think it has some good things and also the anticipation, you know, so yeah, it's, it's all good.

But yeah, I really recommend people to check, check your writing out and your podcast, and of course if they're in Australia, go to your retreats and your conversation nights and all of that. But Liam, what would you tell to, uh, poll curious person?

Liam: Well, probably, probably two things. I doubled down on the idea that it's not a race and you should, you should take a breath because initially everything in non-monogamy is so exciting.

It feels like you're in a, in a wonderland, in a, in a candy store, and it's so tempting to kind of jump into things with your partner at a million miles an hour. But I would say [01:07:00] take a breath, have discussions, know that. If you're in a great relationship, you, you'll be able to kind of explore these things as, as time moves on, and it allows you to kind of be very considered.

The other thing kind of touches on yours is to, to be very careful about the different advice that you're seeking from people and online, and to be very deliberate about who you're sharing it with and making sure that people are coming to you without a sense of judgment, without a sense of kind of fear-based, you know, this is what you could lose.

This is the right way to do this. And especially when people start gravitating, 'cause naturally is curious, anyone you know, interested in non-monogamy is naturally curious. You're gonna go online, you're gonna see different things. There's amazing resources like, like all the stuff that you do. Fair obviously, but it's very important to not get sucked into the rabbit hole in the algorithm of people who are very negative about certain types of way.

[01:08:00] Ways people open relate, because as we've talked about during this whole conversation, is there so many different ways to have a beautiful relationship that is respectful and explorative and adventurous. And you should make sure that you are not putting yourself into a box that is an unhealthy box just because you happen to, you know, find a particular person's Instagram account and they say if you engage in anything hierarchical, then you are the devil.

You know? I think mm-hmm. You have to be. You have to be very mindful of the resources that you're consuming and the communities that you are becoming involved with. You wanna be surrounded by healthy people who are interested in growth, who are interested in nuance, and who give people grace if they, if they make mistakes.

You know, I think it's really important, um, to surround yourself with, you know, great community.

Fer: Yeah, I love that. And I think we touched on, uh, a couple of those ways in which you might do non-monogamy differently from the online [01:09:00] discourse, right? The being hierarchical can be fine and there's ethical hierarchy and unethical hierarchy as, as well as ethical and unethical, like non hierarchy, right?

Like it all depends on how you do it. Mm-hmm. And, and, and a asymmetry, right? Like, your partner can do one thing, you can do a different thing, you can have different rules. So that's really what I'm all about with Poly Cures and I really appreciate that you guys are also like that of not being like, this is right, this is wrong.

And just being like, okay, tune in with yourself, what works for you? Mm-hmm. As Abbey said, what feels good in your body even, you know? Yes. And, and as long as your partner is being respected and listened to and you feel respected and listened to, and it's a safe environment, it doesn't have to look any specific way.

Right? Mm-hmm. So I really love that message. Well guys, thank you so much. I feel like, you know, we could, we could have a part three, part four, part part five, we'll probably will. Uh, but yeah, thank you so much for, thank you so much for [01:10:00] sharing, uh, everything that you shared today and I'm so excited for people to listen to this episode.

Abbey: Thank you so much for having us. A pleasure as always talking to you.