Libby: at the time I had a lot of very harmful scripts about what it meant to be a woman and what it meant to be a sexual being. And I wanted to do a good job and be a good person.

And so I wanted to make sure I, you know, was good giving and game, right. But. Ultimately what I told Drew and Kyrr both was like, I actually need to pause my sexual connection with you because I need to rewire what's happening inside me. When I approach being that way with you. I'm feeling all this obligation and all this pressure, and you're not putting it on me, but I'm feeling it, so I need to change that.

And I don't feel pressure with this other person, so I'm gonna keep having sex with them. And I did. And that was hard. That was hard for everybody.  

Fer: Hi everyone. Welcome to Polycurious. I am Fer relationship coach and host of this podcast, and today I'm talking to someone that you might know if you're [00:01:00] not new to non-monogamy. Her name is Libby Sinback. She has a great podcast that I highly recommend called Making Polyamory Work, which I will actually be a guest on very soon, so stay tuned for that.

She's also a coach. Like myself, a relationship coach,

and she has plenty of experience when it comes to. Polyamory. So there were really a thousand ways this conversation could have gone, but we ended up actually talking about something that. We hear a lot about not just in non-monogamy or in monogamy, which is the decline in sexual appetite in long-term relationships, right?

This is something that a lot of couples struggle with that after many years after having kids especially, it's just a lot harder to feel like having sex, to plan for it, to schedule it, To get away from all of the distractions of everyday life.

 and today Libby [00:02:00] opens up about how she actually spent four years without having sex. with her husband

 They have been together for nearly 17 years at this point. And there was a point in the relationship where Libby realized that she is in the asexual spectrum, meaning it's not like she doesn't like sex or she doesn't enjoy it when she does it. It's just that.

She is not prioritizing it as much as perhaps other people might prioritize it, and it's something that she can live without for extended periods of time, however. At that point, she had just begun seeing another partner, Tom, and she realized that she did want to have sex with her new partner, but not with her husband or her other partner that she lived with Kyrr.

And when she told Kyrr and Drew, her husband, that she didn't [00:03:00] want to have sex with them, but she still wanted to have sex with Tom. Drew especially, had a really hard time understanding that, and I think that that can also be very relatable. Interestingly enough, in my personal experience, whenever I'm having sex with other people, I actually feel more like I want to have sex with Seth,

 my primary partner, but seems like it isn't the case for everyone. Right. In Libby's case. It wasn't that she wasn't interested in Drew, but Drew is the father of her children When she started seeing Tom, she didn't have any of those distractions that come with parenthood and marriage and living together.

She was able to feel much more relaxed. So you might be in a situation where this is happening to you. Either you are in a long-term relationship where you just don't feel like having sex as often anymore, or your partner doesn't feel like having sex as often anymore.

You might be in a situation where you just met someone new and all you want to do is to [00:04:00] have sex with them and not really to have sex with your long-term partner. Or you might be someone who just generally speaking, is probably in the asexual spectrum, or just a woman who feels that pressure to perform and to provide for the man.

And again, it doesn't have to be gendered. But I do find that it happens a lot more to women. So. If any of these resonates with you, you are going to get so much out of this episode.

And Libby tells us how she got out of that four year pause on her sexual relationship with her husband. She gives us great tips about what to do if you're in a situation like this.

Lastly, we actually also talk about. How she found community as a poly parent. So if you have children and you're polyamorous or non-monogamous, I think you're going to get a lot out of this episode. And on that note, there's a lot of [00:05:00] resources that you can check out after this. I created a poly parents miniseries, which I will link.

In the show notes, Libby mentions a few resources, an episode where she talked to her husband, drew about his experience, becoming more encouraged to work on his relationship with Libby after she started seeing Tom. She mentions a couple of books by Emily Nagoski, who is amazing, and I highly recommend you to check those out.

and in the show notes you'll also find links to my Instagram links to book a free exploratory call with me if you are struggling with non-monogamy and feel like you need some help.

Of course, you will also find all the links to connect with Libby if you'd like to reach out to her also for coaching or to check out her amazing podcast. so make sure to check all of those out if you are interested.

Okay, it's time to give the floor to the [00:06:00] amazing Libby Sinback.Libby, it's so great to finally have you on the podcast. You know, as I told you before, I think that your podcast is one of the few that I actually recommend to my listeners and my clients because I think you have so many great insights. So I'm so glad to finally be able to connect for a little bit during this interview.

Libby: Oh, that is so kind. Thank you for saying that.

Fer: Yeah, of course. And you know, as I was listening to your previous podcasts, I was reflecting on how you really have done it. All when it comes to polyamory.

 not just as someone who's lived through it, but as a coach as well. But before we get into all of that, I know one of the things that you mentioned in your interviews was that you never wanted a traditional lifestyle.

 I'd be curious to hear a little bit more about kind of your upbringing and where that bug of I want to do things differently.

I [00:07:00] don't wanna be inside a box came from.

Libby: so I grew up in a part of Georgia that is actually getting more, I think, politically liberal, than it used to be.

When I was growing up, it was very much not, but my parents were, I think, more liberal. but I think that actually the reason why I didn't want conventional relationships is my parents got divorced when I was 10.

So I definitely didn't grow up with some imagining of happily ever after. 'cause I literally saw that not playing out in my family.

And so I very quickly wanted to explore other things. And when I was 19,

Fer: So that would be 1998. So long ago. Ah,

Libby: so 1998 there was, there was not the same internet that we have today. There was no social media, there wasn't even Google. Google didn't even exist then. So like, I think you, you know, I don't know how I found it, but I found Adult Friend Finder [00:08:00] and I started looking through adult friend finder and it was a lot of people putting up like their kinky profiles and stuff.

And that's, I, I kind of like found one that I found intriguing. I met this person and over the summer in between me doing some, having a year off of college to do some theater stuff. between that summer and going back to college, I had like a fling with what I now know was a polycule. I did not know at the time, but it was like, there was, there was the person that I met and then he had three other partners.

They had partners, and we all just, I just kind of hung out. I was kind of like a, a featured guest in their crowd and I was like, okay, this is interesting. This is cool. And, you know, I didn't pursue it further because I, again, I was still figuring out what I wanted, but it was nice to know that stuff like that existed.

Fer: Yeah. It seems like you had that inclination from early on, and it's [00:09:00] interesting because one would think that back then those things didn't happen or.

Libby: Oh yeah.

Fer: there weren't polycules or whatever,

Libby: but polyamory has been around for a long time. So tell me, how did you go from that to meeting your husband now and, you know, then getting into a relationship with Kyrr and them moving in with you and all of that? I, I know that that story is

That's a long

Fer: in, in other shows. It's a long story,

but give us the short version so

we can get into some details from that story and go deep in, in them.

Libby: Sure. Well, I'll, I'll get you from 19 'cause I met Drew when I was 30, so 10, 10 years later, more than 10 years later. And so between that time and the time I was doing all the experimenting somewhere around like 25. This was after I finished college and I was in my first job [00:10:00] in DC where I had moved. I decided that I was gonna try just monogamous dating with men.

At the time, I thought that was going to give me the best. Opportunity at having a partner.

 because that's the, the path is already paved for me. And then proceeded to every person I was in a relationship with. I broke up with them after about a year. I always made a joke that they would never make it past my birthday.

They would actually never make it to my birthday. So I would always celebrate my birthday as a single person, which was very funny. So I celebrated my 30th birthday as a single person. And then I met Drew, uh, in the summer right after I turned 30. And what I really liked about him was how different he was.

Fer: One of the really different things about him is that we hung out for three months. We met on OkCupid, and we hung out for three months before he [00:11:00] ever made any kind of romantic or physical overture towards me. Like, I remember on, I think our second or third date, we actually went to a county fair and we got on an on a Ferris wheel, and he was sitting next to me and I was like, this would be the perfect moment to like, put your hand, take my hand or put your arm around my shoulder, or something like that.

Libby: And he, nothing, nothing. And I was like, okay, he's clearly not ready, or he doesn't like me. I don't know. So I kind of like put it in the, I guess we're friends bucket. And then at one point he was like, by the way, I'm interested in you. And I was like, oh cool. Uh, let me, let me reorient myself and figure out if I feel that way too.

And then I realized I did and we had a very lovely relationship and he made it past my birthday. And yeah, at a certain point it was about a year into our relationship. Again, [00:12:00] at that point, I wasn't looking to get married. I wasn't looking to have kids. None of that was on the menu for me. I was just enjoying being a young person, being in the city and having a lot of freedom to live how I wanted to live.

I wasn't, I wasn't interested in anything else. but then I, one of the things I used to do is, and still do, is partner dancing. And Drew was not into that. He, that was not his thing. He was very into politics. I was very into partner dancing, so I would go out dancing without him and going out dancing.

I met this guy who was in an open relationship and he. Based on just the way that I would talk at like group dinners and things like that. He actually just assumed I was too,

So I think maybe he was picking up on, maybe that I just was like, even though I'm part of a couple, I'm actually like my own person.

And so he asked me out and I was like, oh, well this is, that's interesting. So I went to Drew and I [00:13:00] talked to him about it and I was like, you know this, this guy who's my friend who I find a little bit attractive, and he's a very good dancer, asked me out, what do you think? And Drew was like, well, we both had poly friends.

 it wasn't new to us, like the whole concept, we had just not had that conversation yet. So we did.

And he was like, well, let's, let's try it and see, and

 what he got out of that dynamic with me and this person was, I told him everything. I let him know where I was, where I was, what I was doing, what I was thinking. And I think he just had the experience of being, knowing he could trust me, like knowing that I wasn't gonna surprise him or blindside him or anything like that with dating other people.

And when I got out of. That experience from him was, oh, this is someone who doesn't wanna control me. This is someone [00:14:00] who really honors my full humanness and is like willing to give me a lot of space to be who I wanna be and be with who I wanna be. And I feel like that's a really lovely foundation for a life partnership.

So I was kind of like, before I was like, I don't really want like to get married. And then I suddenly was like, actually, if this is how it could be. Then I'm, I'm actually a yes to life partnership. That sounds really cool because it's not locking us into this model that I didn't think was very, it didn't look very good to me.

 but I really wanted what I had with this guy 'cause it was different. So that's, that's how we landed in non-monogamy land.

Although, you know, for the first couple years of our relationship, even after we were open, there didn't, not a lot happened.

fast forward, like, to kids. And I [00:15:00] think when we had kids, which was not that long after we got married, I went through what a lot of women go through when they have kids, which is, I went through a major identity shift and a major social shift because a lot of the people that I was hanging out with didn't have kids and didn't understand that actually happy hour is a terrible time for a parent to go out like five o'clock.

Are you kidding me? Baby's gonna be in bed by seven. So no, I'm not giving up that two hour window of time to go out and drink. so I, I lost track of a lot of social engagements and lots of, and, and a lot of my social connections.

And I really wanted friends and I really wanted people who were going through what I was going through, who got parenting. And I tried to meet other parents just through my kids and like mommy groups and things like that. But I always felt a lot like an alien around those people. 'cause the only thing we had in common was that we had kids.

And I didn't realize at the time [00:16:00] that, again, I have a lot of neuro divergences and so I, my brain just actually works differently. And I was finding it kind of exhausting to like mask myself and try to seem like a normal person around all these parents. And so I decided, well, let me see if I meet some poly parents and see if that's an, if that's better.

And so that's kind of how I started. More seriously connecting to polyamory community and connecting and being interested in dating and things like that. And also I, when I started dating, the first person I really started dating seriously, and we're still really good friends. he was completely uninterested in my children. He was completely uninterested in anything about me as a mom.

And so I got to be like this adult with him where I, he didn't need anything from me. He just was enjoying my company. And that was so different from what my day-to-day life was like, that it was just like, oh, well I could just be a person. And so that was [00:17:00] really great. And I think that's the thing I really liked about Kyrr too.

When I met Kyrr, and I met at a party. And we became friends first, and they were much younger than me. They, at the time were identifying as female and a lesbian and an anarchist. And, and so they, they were very different from me. And yet they were also similarly like, just interested in me as a human, not interested in me as a parent.

In fact, it was very funny when I had my second kid, they came to visit and they brought food and pretty much everybody who comes to visit wants to hold the baby. You know, they wanna say hi and all that stuff. And, you know, Kyrr comes over with some stuffed delicata squash. And my mom goes, do you wanna hold the baby?

And they go, no, thanks, I'm good. were completely uninterested in that, and they were interested in me. And I was like, that's, that's amazing how cool.

And when, when I met them, they were like, I'm never gonna, I don't wanna get married. I never wanna live with [00:18:00] anybody. I'm an outdoor cat. I then fast forward a couple of years, they're, they're forming relationships with my kids.

They're really getting, involved in our family life. They're spending Christmases with us. then they start dating my husband, they start dating Drew and they have like a amazing like rocket ship, fall in love stars in their eyes kind of relationship, which is really beautiful 'cause it's like these two people that I love now love each other like that.

That's amazing. And then the pandemic came along and they were living in a group house and there was the problem of, that's too many people in a bubble kind of thing. And so they were like, well, I don't really wanna be constrained to this group house, so I'm either gonna move home to Florida and move in with my parents, or I can move in with y'all.

And you know, we said, okay, you can move in with us. [00:19:00] We made some space and they moved in and then we all were in the COVID together, you know, in, in the lockdown together. And a lot of stuff happened in that time, but I think it really deepened the family connection that they had started to develop with all of us.

And so when we moved to Atlanta in 2021, they said yes to moving with us. So that's how that all happened.

Fer: thank you for explaining that. I do wanna get into a few of the things you mentioned. So, well,

first of all, I love when I hear that you searched for other poly parents, because I think that people often assume that they either have to be their, you know, monogamous, quote unquote, or monogamous facing selves with school and parents and that world, and then they have their crazy poly kinky friends on the side that no one knows about.

[00:20:00] And I don't know exactly how you went about finding these parents, but I think I might have heard somewhere that you, went on Feeld, the dating app and just

Libby: There was no Feeld then.

Fer: Oh, There was

no Feeld. Oh, okay.

Libby: OkCupid was, had not yet bought, been bought by match.com. So OkCupid worked differently than that. It does now. So you could actually, for free, you don't have to pay search for the parameters that you wanted. So I could literally search for 10 mile radius from my house.

 says they're polyamorous in their profile and says they have kids, and I can even be like, and doesn't smoke. Like I could put all of those parameters in there and then it would give me a list of people that I could message. How amazing. The other thing that happened was one of those poly parents that I made friends with,

he created a secret Facebook group for the people that he met on his dates and their partners and their friends.

And you, you could only get into the secret Facebook group if someone who knew you [00:21:00] invited you. And what I did was I said to this group who I didn't know, I knew some of the people in it, but I didn't know a lot of them.

I said, Hey, I'm having a potluck at my house. Come over, just come, bring a dish, come hang out. And I did that over and over again. And that built my community like that is part of what built my community, was connecting people, bringing people over to my house. And I, I probably, between between 2014 and 2020, I probably had people over to my house like a hundred times, maybe more than

Fer: Wow.

Wow.

Libby: What we did with the parents was we started meeting every Sunday with our kids. We'd create a safe area, safe ish area for our kids to all play with each other. And then we'd chat. Like, we'd sit around and we'd, we'd somebody order pizza or somebody would make dinner and we'd trade off whose house was [00:22:00] hosting.

And that went on for, for a while. And it was, it was incredible. It was just, it was a really special thing.

Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah. And even though Feeld might not work that way or OkCupid these days, I do think that that's a great tip. if you're looking for community and you're a poly parent, you can go on dating apps and just say, Hey, I'm not looking for dating, but

Fer: I'm looking for friends that also have kids and that are poly.

 because I do think community is so important and a lot of people don't know how to find it, but also don't really make an effort to find it. And you were very intentional about it and it paid off because how wonderful to be able to be both a mom and also your poly weird self with your friends and

 kids that your kids can play with and all of that.

So, tip for the listeners out there who might

be looking for, for a community,

so Kyrr, tell me more about them. even though you had built this community of poly [00:23:00] parents, they

were not parents nor interested in being one.

 I also heard that how Drew and Kyrr got together was that you don't like cuddling. And you were like, why don't you guys cuddle?

Turned out that they had been attracted to each other and you know, they formed a relationship. So I guess I'm curious to hear, first of all, how was that for you? Because it sounds like it was. Great. You were like, oh, amazing. Two people that I love, love each other. This is great. And there was no jealousy or anything like that, but at the same time, how did that change, if anything, your dynamic with Drew and Kyrr

 can you maybe give us a little bit more of an insight of how you handled both the relationship between the three three of them?

and then your separate relationships and kind of the process of adjusting from you being. the only partner of the two to them also being partners together. Was that all [00:24:00] easy for you or were there some rocky moments in there?

Libby: it's so weird to think about that time in my life it, 'cause it was, this would be, this would be 2017 was when Kyrr and Drew got together. It was like in the fall somewhere. And earlier that year I had met someone else that I fell like just madly in love with. It was not a slow burn. It was a fast burn.

It was a rocket ship. It was wild.

Fer: So in that moment when I met Tom, that was where a lot of my focus was, romantically and sexually.

Libby: when I met Drew, and when I met, even when I met Kyrr, I had a very performative relationship to sex.

So I didn't actually know how to really feel into what I actually liked and didn't like. [00:25:00] I really just wanted to do a good job, and that, as you can imagine, affected how I felt about sex with people, if that was the way that I was approaching it. And again, I didn't know any of this about myself. I didn't know this was going on.

I couldn't have told you this. All I knew was that I was very, very tired from having two kids, and I was not very interested in sex with either of them. Like I would do it sometimes and we'd have a good time, but I wasn't that interested in it. And then more and more I stopped being interested in sex with Kyrr because our, the, just the things that we liked and the ways that we approached it were very different

So it just didn't, it just didn't click. You know? It didn't click. And I still really loved them and, but I felt guilty about not desiring that with them. And they very much desired it with me. But I think they wanted me to [00:26:00] be in a role that I just wasn't right for me, sexually, you know? So then I met Tom and everything clicked.

Everything clicked in a way that I didn't have to explain or work at or perform at. And also, I had more language for consent at that time than I did when I met either of those two people. And so I just had a really different relationship with. With how sex worked for me. And then I met this person where there was just a lot of compatibility.

Like the things that I wanted just happened without me having to say anything. And things that I didn't like didn't happen. So nobody was hitting my brakes, you know? And all I knew was, wow, this is great. This is amazing. Oh, but like, it's not like these other two relationships that I'm in. I feel bad about that and, you know, but I did my best at the time to try [00:27:00] to make sure that I wasn't ignoring anybody or that I wasn't getting totally sucked into this new thing.

And, but I'll tell you, when Kyrr and Drew got together, there was, there was relief there actually, because I don't, Kyrr never ever expressed jealousy to me around Tom, but I don't imagine that it was easy for them to see my focus shift. And to see me being very available for sex with this person and not available for sex with them.

But it was never a thing that came up in front of our faces, like they never really said anything to me about how that felt.

Fer: Mm-hmm.

Libby: And Drew, however, did say a lot to me about how that felt and how he was struggling with that. And I think part of it was because I was so excited about this new connection in a way that he had never seen me be excited about anyone before.

He was like, oh my gosh, is that going to mean that you're not as excited about me anymore? Is that going to change our [00:28:00] relationship? Is that going to take the focus away? I think he understood polyamory on paper and he'd seen me date other people before, but. This one made him worry that he was gonna be in a, like a more secondary status in my mind and heart.

He didn't believe that I could hold the excitement that I had for this person and the deep love that I had for him. At the same time, I knew I could do it 'cause I was doing it, but he didn't believe it. and then he and Kyrr got together and then he told me, oh, okay, I get it now.

Because they also fell madly in love and it was this rocket ship feeling and they were having lots of sex. And I was like, phew, okay, cool. Y'all are having fun. That means it's not my responsibility to make sure you have fun, which it never should have been. Right? Never should have been.

 you're not responsible for making sure that other people get sexual gratification. Even if you're in a monogamous relationship, I don't think you're responsible. You may have made an agreement to only do it with each other, but I do not think it is your responsibility to sexually gratify someone else.

That is something you create together, [00:29:00] not something that you fix for someone else. But, you know, again, at the time I had a lot of very harmful scripts about what it meant to be a woman and what it meant to be a sexual being. And I wanted to do a good job and be a good person.

And so I wanted to make sure I, you know, was good giving and game, right. But. Ultimately what I told Drew and Kyrr both was like, I actually need to pause my sexual connection with you because I need to rewire what's happening inside me. When I approach being that way with you. It just doesn't, I'm feeling all this obligation and all this pressure, and you're not putting it on me, but I'm feeling it, so I need to change that.

And I don't feel pressure with this other person, so I'm gonna keep having sex with them. And I did. And that was hard. That was hard for everybody. You know, Kyrr did express like grief over our sexual connection going away. and that's because they felt like, I'm very good at sex. [00:30:00] What do you mean? And I was like, you are.

It's just not the way that I like it, so I'm so glad you're having fun with someone who is having fun with you. That's, that's really great. so I didn't have jealousy because I, I had my own thing. And also though, like, 'cause I could have very easily been afraid. That we'd just split off, you know, like he would go, Drew would go be with Kyrr and maybe they would like partner off and be their own separate thing.

And you know, Tom and I would be over here, although Tom was also married and so had his own family and life and everything like that. So that wasn't really that that wasn't gonna happen. But I just deeply, deeply trusted and still trust both of them, like both Drew and Kyrr like deeply, deeply. And I know I feel no worry and never felt any worry about how much I mattered to both of them.

And honestly, taking a break from our sexual connection and them continuing to invest in our [00:31:00] romantic and our just love relationship just strengthened. My connection with both of them actually like strengthened my faith that I, I mattered because I was worried for a while. Like, well, if I'm not providing you sex, then do I still have value to you?

Do you still love me? Am I still worth putting in effort to spend time with and to make space for, and to have deep conversations with? And they both said, yeah, a hundred percent. I still want all the things with you. And that was so healing. Actually, that was probably one of the most healing experiences of my life, was telling people that love me, that want sex with me, that I'm not going to have sex with them and them still saying, well, I'm still a yes to being in a relationship with you and being in love with you.

Fer: I think that, especially when it comes to long-term [00:32:00] relationships, although I know it happened with Kyrr too, and that relationship wasn't that long, but that feeling of, for whatever reason, I just don't feel like having sex anymore as often. It's very re relatable, and I do think that non-monogamy can be a great way to remedy that.

However, in my experience, usually. Opening up their relationship and having sex with other people that makes you also want to have sex with your partner. But sounds like for you, that wasn't necessarily the case. So I'm curious to hear what your relationship, if you don't mind me asking, what your sexual relationship with Drew, I know that since Kyrr, and you have broken up,

but what's your sexual relationship with with Drew like today?

Do you feel like the spark has come back somewhat? And if,

if so, how? Like any tips for other. Women or men, although I do [00:33:00] find that it happens more often to women than men that are just like not in the mood anymore. And then they might be in the mood to do it with their other partners, but not with their husband or  primary anchor partner, however you want to call it. any tips for, for them in that, I know that your approach of saying no can be one way of doing it,

but did it then come back or Is your relationship now mostly romantic or friendship instead of sexual?

Libby: Hmm. well, how our relationship is, I'll answer that question first. oh. It's so good. It's so good. I was just reflecting on this the other day. We, we had, we had sex like not that long ago, like a couple days ago, and it's like probably one of the best. Times we've ever had sex, like ever, like, and one of the best times I've had sex period, like it was lovely, it was wonderful.

 as a parent of two kids living in a [00:34:00] house together, and our kids go to bed around like 9.30, it's harder to have the energy

Fer: Right.

Libby: to have sex. Like that's just, and again, I'm on the demisexual, uh, asexual side of things. So it's not a big drive for me in general. So if I'm very tired, I am less likely to sacrifice sleep for sex.

But this was on a Saturday morning when my mom had the kids and it was Valentine's Day and it was like, cool, we're gonna go put the dog, the puppy in the crate and we're gonna turn the music up in case she whines and we're just gonna have some time. And it was great. It was beautiful, it was wonderful.

Fer: And so, yes, we. We do have a sexual relationship, and I would say it keeps getting better, and that's after not having a sexual relationship for four years, So you spent four years without having sex and now you're

back at it.

Libby: [00:35:00] Mm-hmm.

Fer: Wow, interesting. So do you think that those four years, the partnerships that you had had to do with you not having sex because again. One can say, okay, non-monogamy can actually help bring that spark back because you are just more sexual in general.

So you may want to have more sex with your partner, but it might also do what it did in your case of being like, okay, well I'm now having sex with Tom.

And even though maybe you wouldn't be having sex with with Drew or Kyrr, probably if you didn't have Tom, you would've worked on your relation on your sexual relationship

Libby: You would think so. You would think so,

Fer: well, I'm cur that's what, that's my,

Libby: yeah, that is not true for me. That is, so it's so interesting that you say that because that was something that I, that I really had to work on Drew I think there's this belief that, and I, I suppose it can be true for some people, it just wasn't true for me.

[00:36:00] So it wasn't like I had this sex bucket that needed to be filled, and if it wasn't filled, then I wasn't. Okay. I'm on the asexual spectrum. I wouldn't call myself like fully ace. I'm not sex repulsed. And I do think I probably have experienced some sexual attraction at some point, but most of what I experience is actually energetic attraction or aesthetic attraction or, just excitement about what's possible.

It's usually not about sex. And the sex was something I felt like. I wanted to do a good job at so that I could have all those other things. And like I said, unwiring, that has been huge for me because the way I frame sex is it's like tennis. It. If I've got a good tennis partner and I think it's gonna be a good tennis game, then I wanna, I wanna play tennis if it's not, or if I'm too tired, or if I'm bloated, or if I'm hungry, or like there's a million things that could get in the way.

And I'd be like, well, it's just not a good day for tennis for me. I'm not like, Ooh, [00:37:00] I need five sessions of tennis a week. That is just not how it's, it is, if it's fun and if the conditions are right, I'll play tennis. If they aren't, I could easily read a book or go to sleep or hang with my kids or whatever.

It's just, it's just not that important to me. And so, and, and Drew was like, I don't get it. Obviously it's important to you 'cause you're going and spending time with this other guy who having great sex. And I was like, yeah, it's because it's easy. It was very easy. I didn't have to do any work on it. If it was easy, if I have an easy tennis game and there's nothing getting in the way and we have carved out time together to have a good tennis game, then yeah, I'll play tennis.

I'll play tennis all day. It's easy. Nothing in my way with Drew. And with anybody, Any co-parenting relationship. There's so many things in the way. There's exhaustion from kids. There's maybe resentment from the way that you just had an argument over who loaded the dishwasher wrong.

[00:38:00] There's, unfolded laundry on the floor of your bedroom. There's, there's so many things in the way and. If neither of you are working super hard to move them out of the way, then it's much harder to get to sex. If you're someone like me where if there are things in the way, I'm like, well, it's just, it's, I'm already doing so much work to move things out of the way for all the other things that I'm doing in my life.

I am not gonna work at this thing too. I will do it if it's not work, but I will not work at it. And that's what I told Drew. I was like, look, I want a sexual relationship with you. I am not gonna bend myself into a pretzel to make it happen. 'cause I am already doing that to be a mom of two neurodivergent kids.

I'm already doing that to figure out how to make a living as a mom with two neurodivergent kids. I'm already trying to figure out how to have a community of friends and parents and things. I don't have it in me to work at this. By myself. I do not have it in me to fix this for you. If you want to partner with me [00:39:00] on working on this together and maybe see what the things are that are in my way that you could move out of the way, then I'm down.

And ultimately that's what happened. But for a while, he just didn't believe me. And what I was saying and was wanting to get into a fight about that. And if you wanted my advice, 'cause you asked what advice do I have? My advice is get real curious about why sex isn't happening. If sex isn't happening, get so curious about it and don't stop talking about it until you deeply understand each other.

Because it's gonna be different for everybody. Right. But if you come in, assuming you know. Why this is happening, what the problem is, or with your wounds on your chest and asking your partner to heal your wounds. Your wounds by fixing their feelings of unworthiness with sex. If that, if [00:40:00] you're asking for that, then it's, you're gonna be stuck in a real yucky situation.

It's, you're gonna be the stalemate with your partner because you're not trying to understand that person, and you're not trying to co-create and make something work. Instead, you're coming in with a pre-made story and then telling them they need to fix it for you, and that that's a no-go, right? But if you get really, really curious, you might still land in a place where you realize, you know what?

We're just not gonna, this isn't gonna be a part of our lives anymore. Now we have to figure out what to do. Right? You might land there. I know people who you know, in through polyamory, discover they're queer and discover they're actually not interested in the opposite gender anymore. Yet they may be married to someone of the opposite gender.

So that might be a moment where you're gonna have to actually just grieve that this isn't gonna work. I've met people who discovered their kinky side through polyamory and their partners like super vanilla, and they're [00:41:00] just not into sex. That isn't kinky anymore. And that's another moment where you might have to grieve, right?

But there are all kinds of middle grounds, right of ways to find each other again. But you have to get curious. You have to get so curious and so patient like, I am so grateful that Drew was patient with me, that he was patient and willing to hang in, even though he didn't, he didn't believe me. He didn't believe what was going on with me.

He was so patient and so loving, and I think we both believed that what we had without sex was so worth investing in. And, and he kept showing up for the relationship. Though it was still a very high priority for him, even without sex on the table. And not everybody can do that.

Some people wouldn't feel excited to be in a marriage that doesn't have sex they'd be like, well, if you're not putting this effort in, then why should I put my effort in? You know, if you're not giving me sex, why should I go get the [00:42:00] groceries?

And again, it's just, I wouldn't think about it that way. 'cause that's not, those are two different, just totally separate things. But, um, but you know, I think it's okay to want a long-term partnership that includes sex and to consider that that long-term partnership isn't worth it without sex. It's okay to want what you want.

And I will just say, I. I'm so glad that that isn't what happened for me.

Fer: Yeah. Thanks for sharing. You know, it really gets me to reflect, because as you said, you don't feel like you have a sex bucket, right? Or you, you need to have sex a certain amount of times a month, or whatever it is, because again, you're in the asexual spectrum, but maybe Drew does feel that way, or maybe your partner does feel that way, right?

So what do you do in that situation? Because I totally get what you're saying. I only want to do it if he feels like I want to do it. I don't want to force myself to do it. [00:43:00] And we have kids, I'm tired at the end of the day, so I wanna do it with Tom because when I'm with Tom, there's no responsibilities or kids around.

It's not just because Tom is the, the only person that I want to have sex with is, is because of the circumstances and you happen to be my husband and the father of my children, and it's just a different setting that doesn't make me as aroused as my partner that's outside of this. Caregiving role that I exist in.

Libby: Right. Well, and I think a trap that a lot of people who are in that nested co-parenting or even just nested, but I think co-parenting just adds a whole nother layer of difficulty when they're in that dynamic. they want sex to just happen effortlessly, it's probably not gonna happen because there are so many things you have to move out of the way.

And you know, some people, some people have such a powerful sex drive that they can have sex. When they're sleepy, they can have sex. When they're sick, they can [00:44:00] have sex. Like they'll want it no matter what. No matter when, no matter, like, they'll always want it, right? And they'll want it, they'll want it lazy.

They'll want it, they'll want it for, you know, five minute, you know, like they're not, it's like the, the pizza analogy, right? Like even, even bad pizza's good pizza for some people, that's how they feel about it. And bless those people, you know. But I think a lot of people, I don't think, just me, a lot of people, like we don't just wanna just eat day old pizza.

We want a nice meal. And it's not worth, as per leaf would say, it's not worth the calories if it's not gonna be good. And, and I think if you want to maintain, I mean, Emily Nagoski wrote a whole book about this and I think it's an incredible book. It's, um, called Come Together. It's

Fer: Yeah, I read it

Libby: to come as you are.

And she talks about like, if you wanna prioritize your sexual relationship over the long term, you're going to have to create a container where it can live. And you have to [00:45:00] prioritize it. And I think that's, I just think that's true. And there's research to bear it out. And I find that there are some people who just want it to be effortless the way it was before you layered all these responsibilities on top of your lives together.

Fer: when you were dating before you were married with kids, you had a contained time. You were spending together, you were coming together for the purpose of being with each other.

Libby: But when you're living together all the time, you, you don't have those containers created for you. You have to carve them out of a, of a whole. Life you're living together and that is much harder.

Fer: Yeah. I mean, even for myself, I am not even, married. Well, I'm engaged. I'm basically married, but I don't have kids yet. Right. So Seth and I technically could have sex all the time. And even then, we need to schedule it to make it happen because we have busy lives and we're not just gonna do it.

As you said, we, we are not the type [00:46:00] of people that, you know, want the cold pizza.

So it just makes me think like, what happens when one partner does want the cold pizza and the other partner could live without pizza for months? Right. And I

do think that,

Libby: well.

Fer: do think that. Exactly. I do think that non-monogamy can help with that because it can be like, okay, you go and get your cold pizza, I won't get any pizza or I, I'll get my occasional pizza or whatever it is, and we can still be married to each other and parents and then at some point, hopefully we rekindle the relationship. However, I think that can be really tricky because you also don't want to be. Supplementing something that's really important to you with someone else, right? Like I also see people who do that, who stay with someone for a long time, even though for them sex is super important, but because they're getting it elsewhere, then they ignore all of the wrong things in their own relationships.

So, you know, it's really interesting to think about all of the ways that this can work. But you do have to [00:47:00] be careful that if you do do that like you did, that you still have some sort of connection, even if it's not sexual and that both people are okay with it not being sexual for the time being. So I'd be curious to hear for you, how did you come back together after four years of not having sex and how do, did you rekindle that relationship and throughout that time sounds like it was difficult for Drew to understand, but at the same time he had Kyrr, I don't know if he had other partners. Was there an agreement of, okay, we're not having sex, that's okay, we'll get to it later, and then you did rekindle? Or how did that process of kind of coming back together

happen?

Libby: Well, the first thing I'll say is I, I think again, everybody's different, but I think some people, it's not about the amount of sex they have. It is a vector of connection that they want with people they, they care about. Right. And I, that was true for Drew for sure. So even though he was having. [00:48:00] Sex with someone, right?

He was having sex with someone. He still wanted to have sex with me too, because that was a vector of connection that he desired between us. He's like, Hey, I think you're hot. I desire you. So it's a bummer that we can't, you know, act on that. And so that's just important to name is that sometimes it's not like, it's not like just 'cause you've gotten sex, that that means you don't want sex with another person that you're in love with.

Right. And we, we are, and always were in love with each other and that never stopped. but so yeah, it was, it was difficult for him. And I still remember the conversation we had years ago where he said, you know, I could just like turn it off. Like I could, it would be work, but I could just like turn off my desire and turn off.

I would have to probably turn off my, my being in love with you two 'cause those feel very connected. But I could just turn it off and we could just be roommates and co-parents and I could just not desire you anymore. [00:49:00] I could just do that. And I was like, Ooh, I, I don't, I don't really want that. Like, it's not that I don't, it's not that I wanna have sex, but I don't want you to turn off the love that you feel for me because I still feel it for you.

Like, we still made out, we still cuddled naked, we still touched each other. It just wasn't, prioritizing sex. So, you know, we talked about it a lot. I think that was one thing that was really helpful and I made it clear that. I needed to be where I was gonna be. And I didn't know when that would change, but that I hoped that it would, you know, it wasn't like I gave up.

And I think that was something that was important to him, was to know that I wasn't checked out of the relationship and I wasn't checked out of all of the aspects of it. And, and that's true. And it wasn't impossible to talk about. So we talked about it a lot. And we talked about it over the years, many times.

[00:50:00] And I don't remember exactly when it started to change.and to be clear, I guess I wanna loop back to one other thing, just really, really briefly. The thing that was, true in Drew's and my relationship was I was the planner, the scheduler, the organizer, the one who made the doctor's appointments for our kids, the one who made sure what school thing was needed at what time and, and read all the emails from the school.

 I was the one building the community. He wasn't doing that with me. I was doing that because he didn't really, he was fine. He was fine being an introvert. He was fine doing his thing, having his small group of friends, and he wasn't looking for the level of like village that I was looking for.

So we were very different in that way, and think I held some resentment about that. I think I held some loneliness about that. And so when you said the thing about, you know, I want sex to be effortless. I actually, [00:51:00] it's not that I wasn't willing to put the effort in, it's just that I wasn't willing to be the driver of the effort because I was the driver of the effort in so many other aspects of my life in our shared life.

And I was tired and I was very, very tired and I needed him to pick up some of the slack. And I had been telling him this for years, years before we even started dating any of these people. I was telling him like, I really need this. And when I started reading all these articles about like emotional labor and the mental load and things like that, I was like, yes, that, that Drew, we gotta talk about that.

And at first he would get defensive and you know, I didn't bring it up very well, but like over the years he kind of got it. and so when it came to sex, what I'm saying is I wasn't willing to carve out the container, get myself ready, I was like, I wanna be, I want you to plan for me. I want you to seduce me.

[00:52:00] I, if you do those things, if you start asking me on dates and planning the dates I'm down for years, he just wouldn't, you know? And I'm like, I can't be, I can't be responsible for that too. I'm responsible for all these other things and it's not that important to me. So I can't be responsible for something that is more important to you than it is to me when I'm taking responsibility for all the other things that are important to me, but that also benefit you.

So that's just important to say.

Fer: Yeah, no,

that's an important point for sure.

Libby: and I think

Fer: would he, you said he wouldn't, but who

would he say, oh yeah, I'll do it, and then just life would get in the way and he wouldn't, or like, why would, do you think he didn't do it? If you framed it in that way.

Libby: Um, he would say he saw the need. He was trying to get there, trying to get the bandwidth to do it, but would put it off, you know, put off whatever it was, you know?

 sometimes argue why, why he didn't need to do that, or why it wasn't that important or why, you [00:53:00] know, sometimes he would, you know, go that track.

Sometimes he would say he would do it and then. Not, or do it for a little while and then not do it. And then sometimes it was like, I want to do that, but I'm not ready yet and I'll get to it eventually. And honestly, my relationship with Tom kind of lit a fire under his ass about it, you know? and he would, he would agree with me.

We did a whole episode about that.

Fer: right. So he saw you excited about having sex and he's like, oh my God, I need to kind of like get back on the game. Like a little

competition isn't always bad, you know?

Libby: Well, and, and in my mind, it wasn't competition that was all in his mind. I was like, I am ready for you when you decide to step up. I am not gonna force myself or push myself, past my own desire. I just can't do that. So again, it, it, it took a while. For us to find a place where things started feeling better.

And then it took me a little while to feel [00:54:00] like I could kind of trust it, you know, and trust, trust our connection, and be willing to find my way, my own personal way into a space of, of play and letting go and being open to pleasure versus like trying to do a good job or, trying to make a thing happen, you know?

And, and he was just so patient. You know, one beautiful thing about Drew is he, he really has a wide range of what he can be happy with, and that includes sexually. So again, another piece of advice I would give to people who maybe sex has fallen off for them is to try. Being sexual, but not goal oriented about it.

Like just playing together and stopping whenever you feel like it, whenever you feel tired, whenever you feel bored, whenever you feel overwhelmed. [00:55:00] Like just stopping and having that be okay. 'cause I think there's a real, particularly in heterosexual spaces, but I even encountered in queer spaces too. This idea that we need to do this part, this part, then this part, and it has to end this way.

And that's the way we do it, you know? And what would it be like if you just go, Hmm, what do I feel like doing right now? What do you feel like doing right now? Let's work it out together.

Maybe you just wanna touch me here for five minutes and maybe that's all we want. Or maybe I just wanna touch you, but I don't want you to touch me because maybe I'm feeling touched out today, but I could totally just touch you.

Could you do, could we do that? And then you kind of toss out the obligation, you toss out the scripts and you're just in your bodies.

And I think we did that a lot over the years where we weren't like. Fucking our brains out, but we were still being sensual with each other and then there was no pressure.

And I think actually having a lot of time of sensuality and no pressure caused my body to relax and go, [00:56:00] okay, I can just enjoy what is and and be in it. And I think that, again, I'm just so grateful that he was willing to be so patient.

Fer: Yeah.

Libby: It paid off.

Fer: Yeah. I really, I really think that you are right on the dot with that because. It does become a chore that you do, and it's hard because you don't want to disappoint the other person, but at the same time, the other person doesn't really want you to do something that you don't want to do. So you really just need to do whatever feels good.

And if that's, just cuddling, it's just cuddling. If it's masturbating next to each other, it's masturbating next to each other. If it's you touching them or them touching you, but not the other way around, like, there's many ways of doing it, but you have to get really comfortable when in your mind you get, you'll find that moment where you are like, ah, actually I'm feeling like I don't want to do this anymore.

And vocalize it. Because even, even for me, sometimes it happens, like if I'm having sex and, [00:57:00] and I want, not really with my partner, but you know, more with new people, but that, you know, I want to change positions or something, and I'm thinking, okay, I want to say this. Like, I want to say something about this or move the person or whatever.

And it, it's, it's scary to say.

Until here, I'm done with this. I wanna change this faster,

slower, right? Like, yeah. Yeah.

No, I, I've worked on it, but I still find myself being like, hesitant to put it out and now I just push myself

to do it. So

Libby: the

Fer: you don't you don't want to, whatever. All of those things.

So, yeah. Thank you for, for that. So it sounds like removing that pressure was actually what helped bringing back the, the sexual spark. But going back to what we were saying of also being careful not to then just have sex with other people and then forget your connection with your partner.

You were still connected, you were still intimate, you were still sensual. Right. And I think that's really important. So as long as you do that and your partner [00:58:00] feels okay with taking that break and potentially has other partners they have, they can have sex with, although as you said, it's not necessarily. It doesn't necessarily mean that they won't wanna have sex with you, but it could

relieve that quote unquote need. Right. That they might have. It's okay to have a non-sexual relationship for a time in a, in a long-term partnership. How long have you been together with Drew?

Libby: it'll be 17 years this summer. Yeah.

Fer: Wow. 17 years. Yeah. So I mean, it, it makes sense that during 17 years there's ups and downs when it comes to your appetite for sex, depending

on what's going on.

Libby: with kids. I wanna normalize that a lot in your life changes when you have kids. I was reflecting on this recently when I had kids, I really didn't want my life to change. I really didn't want to have to slow down so many things that got slowed down because I think there's this model of like, like having it all, like keeping, keeping everything going and the kids are [00:59:00] just there.

And that is not how it worked for me at all. And I had to over and over and over again, just surrender to this is my life now. It's different. This is my life now. It's different. So I think being accepting of that things will change when you have a kid, when you open up, when you get a puppy, right?

Fer: I just got a puppy. Oh, so did Libby. Coincidentally,

Libby: So like things will change and I don't think you owe a long-term partner consistency and sameness over the course of your life. I think that's insane. Like Esther Perel says, like you, she's been in multiple marriages over the course of her life. It just happens to be all with the same person.

And I like the idea of like continually asking, oh, what marriage are we in now? What season of life are we in now? And what, what is [01:00:00] this season of life calling for for us? You know? And there was another thing I wanted to touch on. That I think y'all should all just check out this Instagramer. Her name's Morgan Burch.

She's a a, a relationship coach. She did a couple of really nice posts on sex, and I like what she says, which is a lot of times the need that you have is not for sex. The need is maybe to connect to your erotic self. The need might be to feel, wanted to feel less lonely, to feel sensual, to be touched.

None of those are actually sex, right. Erotic does not have to mean sex Erotic could be dancing erotic, could be talking erotic, could be certain kinds of sensate activities that aren't involving genitals. Like there's a lot of things that are in the realm of erotic that are not sex, [01:01:00] feeling not lonely.

There's so many ways to not feel lonely besides sex feeling desired and wanted. There's so many other ways to get there besides sex, and I think a lot of people channel a lot of relational and physical and human needs into sex and say that I need sex when what they need is, I need to feel less lonely.

I need touch, I need eroticism. And then it's like, well, this is the only way I can get it. And it's like, no, no. You can find lots of other ways.

Fer: Yeah. Yeah, I love that. And I will add to the show notes, all of the resources, the Emily Nagoski book, your episode that, that you referenced, those Instagram posts and all of that. So people have all of those resources. 'cause again, I do see this a lot, in my work, and I'm sure you do too, that it's very common for long-term relationships to have stagnation when it comes to their sexual relationship.

And I [01:02:00] do think that non-monogamy can help, people get creative with it and find solutions. And I'd be curious to hear Libby would you say that, were you not non-monogamous? Maybe you wouldn't have been with Drew for 17 years? 'cause that's another thing that I've been reflecting on lately, how some people say. Non-monogamy breaks marriages, and yes, that's true, but also sometimes is what allows you to continue in the marriage, right? Like if you weren't open and you had realized you were a, a

asexual and you want, you didn't want to have sex with Drew, would he have waited for years for you to have sex before?

Right. Or, or on your side, you know, also having the flexibility of having different partners and maybe getting that erotic energy elsewhere. Right. So I'd be curious if you have reflected on that before.

Libby: Yeah. I mean, it's such a hard question to answer because there's, would I have gotten married at all and would I have stayed [01:03:00] married at all if non-monogamy wasn't available? The boyfriend I'd had right before Drew got mad that I, naked hot Tubbed with friends, and I was like, oh, hell no. Like it clarified something for me that I need that freedom period.

You know, it's not about, I'm not getting my need met in this relationship, so I need to get it available in some other relationship. That wasn't where non-monogamy was coming from for me, it was. I wanna feel free to follow what's right for me.

 So that's that question. And then the question, would I have stayed with Drew? I would stay with that man through anything, anywhere, anytime, doesn't matter.

I love him so much. Like, like I'm getting teary about it, but

Fer: Mm.

Libby: that relationship, irrespective of sex or no sex, irrespective of who we've dated and not dated, is the most healing and beautiful [01:04:00] relationship I've, I've ever known in my life.

 it is because we, we both believe in staying. We believe. And of course I say that and, and I have regularly said, you know, if this doesn't, if this doesn't change, I don't know if I can do this. You know, I've, I've said those kind of things. I don't mean it, I don't really mean it at all.

But, um, because I think we both have an ethic of, yeah, our, our relationship is gonna go through seasons. Our relationship is gonna change and grow. We don't know what the heck's gonna happen, but I know that I love you. I know that you are this person that I wanna continue to see and watch evolve. And we've talked about like what would happen if we broke up because, you know, I suppose that could happen.

 And so it's not that we're we're devoted to remaining married. Per se. But I've never really [01:05:00] felt a need to not be, you know, and, and I think that's because he's not asking me to shrink myself, to change myself in moments when I said I couldn't have sex, he didn't say, well, you better fix that.

Or else he said, okay, that sucks. I'm still here. You know? And there were moments where I was again, carrying the mental load and feeling, aggrieved about that. And I said, this sucks, but I'm here. I'm here and I'm gonna figure out what I need to do to be okay with what is here because it's still good enough that it's worth sticking around.

Fer: Yeah.

Libby: it really is. And it never stopped being that.

Fer: Yeah. You know, I feel identified with my partner Seth, I feel very similarly of, well, we're figuring it out. It might look really weird at some points, but we don't really care how it looks. We care that it works for us.

 I would want [01:06:00] listeners to take that message with them and, going back to the topic of sex, I think a lot of people think that they must want to have sex, they should be having sex a certain amount of times per month or whatever it is, and there's no shoulds. It's just whatever, whatever you want to do, whatever works for you. So thank you so much for sharing all that. Libby, I had no idea we were gonna talk about this

Libby: I know. Right

Fer: for the whole

hour, but Here

we are and I think it's

Libby: we are.

Fer: great and very valuable topic. So we'll have to have you back because I did have a lot of questions about, you know, living with two partners and after they left the change, I'm sure there's

Libby: Oh yeah,

Fer: I'm sure there's another episode there and we're gonna record it some other, some other time.

But before we wrap up, I usually end my interviews by asking what will you tell to a polycurious person? So any final words of wisdom from your experience, either from, you know, what we talked about today or more generally speaking, polycurious people.

Libby: [01:07:00] Well, I think tied to what we're talking about right now is if you are in a committed relationship with someone, before you step into polyamory and really, before you step into committed relationship, I would say ask yourself, is there anything. That could happen in this relationship that is on your absolutely not okay list, and then look at that.

Really look at that. And because if, if what's on your not okay list is stopping having sex. That is so common and it's ridiculous.

Obviously there are lots of things that get to be on your not okay list if you're gonna long term commit, but if that's one of 'em, I would, I would, I would think twice. And I'd definitely think twice about polyamory. and similarly, like if you step into non-monogamy and you're partnered. I would look at what kinds of things could happen that would also not be on your okay.

[01:08:00] List, like that would, that would feel terrifying or torturous because, I don't know. I feel like they often happen and I feel like a lot of people try to make rules and agreements and protections to prevent those things from happening. And I'm sure there are lots of people for whom they never happen, but plenty of people they do.

 I approach it as, you know, it's an opportunity face something hard. I, I believe that life presents us opportunities to, you know, experience something that we haven't experienced before. And sometimes it's hard, and that doesn't mean that it's not a worthwhile experience. Like I, I am so grateful for.

All of the hard things that polyamory has brought me, that marriage has brought me, that being a mom has brought me. I have [01:09:00] no regrets. But I think if I had a big list of, well, this better not happen, this better not happen, this better not happen that again, I would look at that, I would really think twice.

Fer: Yeah, for sure. Well, thank you so much, Libby. It's been so great to chat with you today.

Can't wait for, part two.

Libby: thanks for asking good questions.