Bella: [00:00:00] I would read a book on polyamory and I'd be like, oh my God, love is infinite. I totally agree with that. And then I would get to the moment of things are actually happening and my nervous system would totally collapse in on itself.

 it's a very similar experience, to like dying or being attacked. Right. We don't know the difference as humans. Like when you get activated that

Fer: Right. The fight or flight.

Bella: Fight or flight fully kicks in, you know, and I, I had never experienced that before, ever.

And  it took some time and like these really, really challenging and beautiful conversations afterwards of like, what do you need? What do I need to give myself?

Fer: Hi everyone. Welcome to Polycurious. I am Fer relationship coach and host of this podcast, and today I'm talking to my friends. Bella and Patrick, they have been [00:01:00] together for four years, married for a year and a half, and interestingly, they started non-monogamous and long distance. And during that time, Patrick had a partner in Oregon where he was, and Bella was in Mexico City, and she had to face a challenge that I think a lot of people face when they first entered.

non-monogamy, which is that in theory, you might be on board with it, right? You might know that your partner dating other people doesn't mean that they will leave you or that you are any less or that they don't love you or whatever it is. But that doesn't mean that our body is not going to react in fight or flight, that our body is not going to feel like.

That person might abandon you, right? Even if you know in your head that that's not the case, and Bella who's now a coach has learned to self-soothe, [00:02:00] self-regulate and now is helping other people do the same, So today she has really great tips around that,

 and. There's a lot to it, but one thing that I would like you to take out of this episode and that I also really stress with my clients is that instead of bringing things up in the moment with your partner to first do some processing on your own.

Right. So when you're feeling jealous, when you're feeling insecure, when you're feeling activated, give yourself some time. To process the feeling and to calm yourself down before going and talking to your partner. Because what happens when you just go straight to your partner? You might not have a productive conversation.

You might make your partner feel guilty, even though they might have not done anything wrong And you might find yourself in a situation where non-monogamy is pushing you to learn to self-regulate, to learn to [00:03:00] be your own support before going to your partner or going to other people. And those skills can actually help you everywhere in your life, not just in non-monogamy.

so I'm hoping that today can give you some practical advice that you can start using if you find yourself basically freaking out when your partner is out on a date with someone else.

And if you are in that situation and need some help, I would highly recommend that you reach out to Bella, who is now a relationship and intimacy coach, and who has been there herself, right? So she can help you in that process if you're really struggling. and you can find her website. In the show notes, if you scroll down, you'll also find this worksheet that she created for agreements in non-monogamy

and we mentioned so many other resources in this episode. We [00:04:00] mentioned men's circles, we mentioned books.

Podcast episodes, so make sure to go to the show notes and take advantage of all of that. And if this episode makes you think of a friend of a partner, or someone that you know that needs these resources that could benefit from it, that's maybe having a really hard time regulating with non-monogamy, please make sure to send them this episode.

It takes one minute, and you could be making a big difference in other people's lives.

And this conversation is not just about self-regulating. There's so many excellent tips, funny anecdotes, and gems of wisdom that I can't wait for you to hear from Bella and Patrick. So let's get to it. Bella and Patrick, welcome to Polycurious. I'm so excited to have you. Thank you for agreeing to be on the podcast. So last minute. Mm. Um, just context for the listeners. We were having [00:05:00] brunch and I was like, actually guys, I've been meaning to invite you to my podcast. Are you down? And I'm so glad that you were both down to do it.

 I know that when you got together, it sounds like Patrick, you had more experience with non-monogamy, is that right? And then Bella, you were kind of introduced to this world by Patrick.

Bella: yeah. from my perspective, I, met Patrick and he was, very clear about his, his orientation. He was like, I am polyamorous. And I met him and I was like, whoa, I'm definitely not. And he had started to listen to me and my stories and he, he was like, maybe you are more polyamorous than you think you are

Fer: What, what story you gotta tell us the story

Patrick: Yeah, she, yeah, she we're out the, like, the day after we first got together properly and we were talking, and first of all she's like, we, we started talking about Feeld and she's like, [00:06:00] oh, the threesome app. And I was like, what? And she's like, yeah, like the one that you go on to go on threesomes, like to get, and I was like, I guess that's what you get after it.

I

Fer: mean that's, I don't, did you know that it was called Thrinder before?

Patrick: I didn't. I found that out after, but it was amazing 'cause I was like, oh, like, and you know, it was also, uh, you know, listening to her talk about her experiences, she's like was in it for more than just like hooking up with a couple.

She really loved the connection of it. And then she also started telling me about like. I mean, I'll leave names out of it, right? So, oh, there's this guy in LA that I, and then this other guy from New York. And like, did I and I, and I just said at some point I'm like, well, have you ever heard of the term like solo poly?

Like I get that you are presenting yourself as like single, but like it feels like there's something with all these guys. Mm-hmm. That is special.

Bella: yeah, it was just a funny, it was a really funny realization 'cause I was like, no, I'm not polyamorous. I just have couples that I love that I date and they all know about each [00:07:00] other.

And like, I have my couple in Mexico City who I love, who I still talk to, to this day and my first couple in Vienna. And like, I, and I just love them and he's like, that is kind of the definition of polyamory in some way. And I was like, definitely not.

Fer: So where was your resistance coming from?

Bella: probably social programming and also a lack of knowledge just.

Also just this idea of, I really wanted to find my person. Like I really wanted to find this man, may, maybe a woman, but really I was like, I wanna be with a man who loves me unconditionally. And that had always been presented to me as that is monogamy. So that's what I was looking for and it kept not working.

Yeah. So that, that was my,

Patrick: or it was working like a little too well.

Bella: Yeah. My solo poly life was going well, I guess.

Fer: but at that point it doesn't sound like you were like, oh, we are

Bella: mm-hmm.

Fer: [00:08:00] Primaries or we're doing this thing. Maybe tell us how that happened.

Mm-hmm. I know that you guys met in Mexico, but how did you go from meeting in Mexico and I don't think you lived in the same place to being like, okay, we're doing this thing together.

Patrick: we met at a, like a music festival in Mexico.

And we had a, a very nice time. We didn't like nothing sexual happened. We had a little cuddle. And then two years later I was back in Mexico and we connected. And that's when we started having these conversations. I was going through a, you know, I was mid breakup with a partner, overseas and, you know, that one hadn't really landed in the square of consensual non-monogamy that I would've liked.

And so I was pretty clear that I was like, no, I want this thing. And when we started talking like it, it was like, well, we definitely like each other. We definitely wanna see each other again. And, Bella didn't seem turned off by my orientation towards that, so that was good. But also, I was living in Oregon at the time and she was in Mexico City, so [00:09:00] it just started to be like, okay, well how do we make this work if we wanna see each other again?

And I, I actually don't remember the next time we saw each other. You flew up to Portland.

Bella: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I got in his van. He, he had a van and he was part-time living van life and driving around and I was like, okay, but I'll try this on and

Fer: like, try this on. Try Patrick on.

Bella: Yeah. Yeah. Try on like his lifestyle, try on who he is.

Mm-hmm. You know, like it's, it's hard when you meet. S just a, a guy that you feel a deep connection with, but they're like, I'm polyamorous. Right? I don't know what that means to you. Right? Because polyamory could mean so many different things. Like how many partners do you really wanna have? Like how, what is my capacity then in this?

So the only way to find that,

Fer: like, go, let me try out this hippie van Polyamorous.

Bella: Yeah. Yeah. What does that actually mean? he was

Patrick: pretty hippie at that point too.

Fer: Yeah.

Patrick: Or it was great.

Fer: You're like, I've, I've, [00:10:00] I've like cleaned myself my act up, but at that point, yeah, yeah,

Patrick: I mean, what was cool about it too was like. You know, in some ways people are like, it was really hard. It must have been really hard to do it long distance and to start off that way. But in some ways I thought it like actually worked really well 'cause it created this need and also created like a, a real clear reason why I didn't wanna be monogamous as well.

Like, not that I needed one, but it was like, hey, like if we're not only gonna see each other every like eight to 12 weeks, like do you really wanna be out at a club in Mexico City and be like, oh no, I have a boyfriend who lives in Oregon so I can't like kiss you or hook up with you or flirt with you.

Like, I was like, that's weird. Yeah. Or at least my view. That's weird. Yeah. And so it sort of added to the like, hey, this is a legitimate way to start our relationship 'cause like why would we have that, those kind of encumbrances if we don't even live in the same city? so that was part of it and I think it like helped a lot for Bella to get, acclimatized to like some of the [00:11:00] stuff that would come up in her nervous system in those early.

Months, you know, on her own, like not being able to rely on me.

Bella: Yeah, exactly. That's kinda what I wanted to, yeah, thank you for saying that. 'cause I, I just, so I meet this man who I feel so connected to and then all of a sudden all of my shit is coming up. All of my stuff is coming up and I'm like, oh my God, don't leave me.

And I'm like. I literally just met this person, what is happening? Like to my, and so I, I took it upon myself as like, this, I need to figure this out on my own, like this. Even if this beautiful man leaves me and I never see him again, I need to figure out why, why am I so anxious? Like what's I, I really do wanna figure this out on my own and take this as like, this is, this is obviously the work that I need to be doing is to find security on my own, feel safe in my body and not throw it on some man that is in Oregon that I feel deeply about.

But like, I literally have only met and spent [00:12:00] three weeks with him. Really? So,

Fer: yeah. But you could tell it was special. Yes. 'cause you probably didn't feel like that with your other lovers.

Bella: Exactly. I cared for the first time. Like truly what it was

Fer: like for the first time ever. No.

nah,

Bella: sorry. Ex-boyfriends.

No, I think I did care about them, but I had a certain level of power I felt with other relationships. Like I knew that they really were like, you're amazing. Or, or there was this feeling of like, I feel safe and powerful and for the first time,

Fer: they would never leave me

type

thing. Yeah, yeah,

Bella: yeah. I, I control the, I have the cards and for the first time I was like, whoa, this person I feel deeply for and has a sense of autonomy and power on his own, which is terrifying.

Oh my gosh. You know, like, what, what do I do with that? You know, like, what does polyamory mean, like to him? and so it really was a, I took it as an invitation to, do a self-discovery and like, [00:13:00] why? What do I need to feel powerful and autonomous?

Fer: And what did you find out?

Bella: Oh, oh my gosh. Well, I did start, I started with this amazing book, that Patrick gave me called Polysecure.

Fer: Mm-hmm.

Bella: and I'm sure you've read it. Mm-hmm. And it, for anyone that's kind of like just starting out, I, I really recommend that book to them. It's Attachment Theory and related to polyamory. And at the first half of the book, I was freaking out. I was like, oh my gosh, I'm broken. It's never gonna work. And then towards the end of the book, I started to see myself in this world.

Like she, Jessica Fern, I believe is the author. She does this beautiful diagram. It's like a chart four

Patrick: by four.

Bella: Four by four, thank you.

Patrick: Two by two,

Bella: two by, I don't know, four quadrants. And I literally could see myself on the chart. I could see it's [00:14:00] like, not monogamish, it's like a little bit more towards polyamory, but it's somewhere in that realm.

And so. There was suddenly it went from freaking out. Like, I don't belong here to, like, I, I can see myself and it's right there and I can choose it.

Fer: Patrick sounds like of the bat, you were like, I'm poly, this is what I want. How did you figure that out, or what was your experience before?

Patrick: Yeah, I mean, I, I was super lucky. I did a bunch of work, 15 years ago now, 10 years ago. And I was with a partner then for a long time, and we were on and off in a monogamous container, and it was just like amazing at times.

And then at other times it was just like really hard on both of us. And at some point when we were doing a bunch of work on ourselves, you know, I just asked her, I'm like, would you be open to like more of a, a non-monogamous arrangement? And to her great [00:15:00] credit. Instead of rejecting it, which I sort of thought was a possibility, it was one of the scariest conversations I've ever had.

She just got really curious and was like, what does that mean to you? Like, what does that look like? And there was a lot of baggage. We'd been together for eight years and there'd been a lot of heartache and bad decisions and yeah, she just came with curiosity and wanted to know more and then was like, yeah, like here's what I'm gonna need in that arrangement.

And the arrangement was like, I was traveling a lot for work. Then she was like, I'd just prefer if we start out like, where you're not dating people in this city. You know? Which was totally fair. 'cause she's like, I'm tired of showing up at parties and not knowing who you've slept with. You know,

Fer: that was already happening.

Patrick: Oh yeah. Oh yeah. And she's just like, nah, I don't want that.

Fer: Because you were like a slut before you got together.

Patrick: I mean, now that we've reclaimed the word slut, I'll accept that.

Fer: Yeah, no, I, I'm a slut too. I'm not. I'm

Patrick: saying my judgment at that I would've been like,

yeah,

Patrick: no. yeah,

Fer: it also has a different connotation.

No, I know. When it comes to men.

Patrick: Yeah, totally. But it was, I mean, we'd both been, you know, at times not together and [00:16:00] things would happen and you know, she's an attractive girl as well. So, and then, yeah, we ended up just really exploring that for. Two years, I think. And, and we ended up moving to Europe together.

And then, in an ironic twist, she ended up leaving me for another partner. Mm-hmm. And like going back home and, and that was so much heartbreak. Like, it was crazy for me to deal with that. And, yeah. And like, sort of similar to what Bella is sharing, like I got through it, like it was okay. And then I came outta that and I was like, despite having it kind of blow up in my face in a way, like, is one way to look at it, it was just like enlivening to know that like she chose the life she wanted, you know, like she chose it with this other man.

Mm-hmm. And that was fine. And I was like, yeah. Like that's amazing. Yeah. So at least I know she's not just stuck here with me because of some compulsory monogamy that she feels in her right. Body or whatever,

Fer: right?

Patrick: And so yeah, that's when, and and so coming outta that, I was like, no, I, this is, I've only recently [00:17:00] gotten the sort of like, I've heard people talk about like identifying as, you know, non-monogamous or, being oriented that way or like kind of making those distinctions.

And like, you know, at that time I was like, no, this is definitely something that's more important to me than any one person is like being true to myself. Mm-hmm. And true to my needs in terms of like loving a lot of people and wanting to have freedom. And, yeah. So by the time I met Bella, I had been through Europe a little bit and, had had another couple of relationships and I was just like, yeah, this is how I want to frame this and this is how I want, I want our starting place to be.

Fer: It's so interesting, right? Because one would think, oh, you know, he was left. By, by someone else because he decided to open up their relationship. Like that might have burned you or something and, and maybe you were like, oh, I don't wanna do this anymore.

But you were like, yeah, she left. But I want to be with someone that chooses me. You know what I mean? And, and I think that that's [00:18:00] always kind of what I think about when people say like, aren't you afraid that, well, they don't really say that to me 'cause Seth is monogamous. But you know, like the typical thing that like, I wanna say ignorant, but not in a judgmental way, but people that are not familiar with non-monogamy says, aren't you afraid your partner is gonna leave you for someone else?

And it's like, yeah, but if they do is because they wanted to be with that other person. And like, I believe that I can find a partner that will always come back to me and will always choose me, above other people, right? Mm-hmm. If you are hierarchical, which,

Patrick: or like for the time that they choose you.

Right. Like is how I think about it. It's like if Bella decides one day that she doesn't choose me anymore, like that's okay. She chose me for however long she chooses me. Right, right.

Fer: But then, but then, well now, now you've signed the papers.

Bella: Yeah. I mean, it's beautiful. I mean, I also met this person and it was just, we had a wonderful walk one [00:19:00] day and I was, it was just a really sweet moment of she chose her path and then I, I think she said something to the account of like, I'm glad that you met Bella.

Like, I'm glad that this has all worked out the way it has because I know you met the person you're supposed to be with. And for now.

Speaker 4: Yeah,

Bella: well, forever. Forever. but yeah, it was, it's just about, like you said, choosing. Yeah. Really choosing that person. And I'm so glad I worked out the way it did. 'cause now I to be with this person.

Patrick: Yeah. And like I'll also say like. It allowed, allowed me and this person to like create a new relationship. Mm-hmm. And like, we, like intentionally created kind of a new way of relating that was like connected, but separate. And it's like if I was in a monogamous framework as I see it, like it would be harder to do that, right?

Like it would be harder, you'd just kind of be like, oh, I've moved on, you've moved on, this is whatever. But now we have this beautiful, like non-sexual, non-connected in this like any physical way, but we're, [00:20:00] we still love each other in like a dear way that

Bella: like

Patrick: is really great. Mm-hmm. And really special to me.

Fer: so how did you go from you being in Mexico and you being in Portland to being like, okay, let's like do this together and, and sounds like at the time you had another couple of partners.

Patrick: Yeah, I mean, the short answer is the van trip went really well. I did have a, a another partner there in, in Oregon that I was seeing and so that like actually was a whole world of experts.

Fer: Not the same one. Not the same extra difference.

Patrick: No, no.

Just as somebody that I started dating after I moved there. And, that became like a really interesting, testing ground for how we like reregulated ourselves and how we like navigated having another partner. And it was, it was pretty wild, to have. I mean, I can tell a little story.

Fer: Yes,

Patrick: for sure. If you're good with it.

Mm-hmm. Like, I would go on dates with this person and she had a fiance, like she was quite, she had a nesting [00:21:00] partner. And, and where I lived was like a small town. Like there wasn't a lot of, it wasn't like living in a big city where you have a ton of options. Like we were not in San Francisco and everybody's got some form of weird relationship thing.

So it was really nice to find somebody that was like, oriented towards polyamory. And her partner was like basically a, a relationship anarchist. And they were great. And I really enjoyed spending time with 'em. We had a lot in common, but I would go on a date with her and, and Bella's nervous system would act out.

Mm-hmm. And so my experience of it would be, you know, I could feel a few texts coming in and then all of a sudden she's blowing up not only my phone, but my girlfriend's phone and then, you know, and sticking to boundaries was like super helpful. Wait,

Fer: she was blowing up Bella's phone?

Patrick: No, Bella would be calling her 'cause she had her number as well.

Bella: We were all talking.

Patrick: Yeah. So from Mexico City, she's calling her on her bedside table and it would be like, okay, well let's stick, like my thought process would be, [00:22:00] well, let's stick with this. Stick to the agreements we have. I'm gonna call Bella at 8:00 AM tomorrow, which is the agreement we made. And I would do that and it would be really hard.

And that eight o'clock call and I, you know, sort of knew what Bella would be going through in terms of her nervious system being flared up and whatever, you know, was happening for her. I could only imagine. But, you know, sticking with it and then calling her usually from the van parked outside and, and having those really, really hard conversations, was, you know, showed me that Bella could handle it in a way and that we could handle it.

And that, like, that boundary setting in Bella's. Experience of it or however she was dealing with it on her end, which I'll let her share was like formative in how we like, knew that this was gonna be something that was possible. 'cause kinda like, if we can do that and deal with that, then like we're gonna be okay.

Fer: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Patrick: I should put a really positive spin on a really difficult thing that would happen.

Fer: Well, I mean, I know you guys are doing great now, so we'll get to that. But let's get into [00:23:00] the difficult parts too. So I'm, I'm curious

 what were you gonna say? Like, in the middle of his, just like, I'm freaking out. And Great

Patrick: question.

Fer: And, and not only that, not only that, okay, maybe, maybe I get that. Maybe just being like, Hey, I'm having a really hard time. Can you tell me you love me?

I get that. Mm-hmm. But what were you gonna tell to his partner,

Bella: It was just like he didn't see his phone and I was like, I really need to talk to Patrick right now. I really, really, really, really do.

Fer: And you, Patrick, you, you were like. Actually, I'm gonna choose not to talk to her right now 'cause we agreed. 8:00 AM so, mm-hmm.

Patrick: I never picked up her phone when Bella would call it. 'cause I was just like, that's, that's such a boundary.

Like, I was just like, that's not okay. You know, like, this is not okay. And I would say that to her in the morning, like, this is not okay. Like, you can't just be blowing up phones because you're, you know, and so that was hard and it's a hard thing to tell somebody. It's like, you know, you, it's almost like your feelings aren't valid.

You should be fine with this. But I, I wasn't saying that. I was just like, we had an agreement to talk at eight. I'm on the phone with you at eight. Mm-hmm.

Fer: Yeah.

Patrick: That, you [00:24:00] know, like, let's stick to our agreements or else we're gonna not know where we stand.

Fer: Yeah.

Patrick:  And I think it's also important to just name that that other person, like the agreements are with them as well. Right. So it's like staying until 8:00 AM with them was like super important because it's like, hey, like this person has rights too.

Like they have a say in this. Mm-hmm. They are an autonomous person with agency. Mm-hmm. And so it's not fair if, yes, I at that point was falling in love with Bella to just be like, oh, I'm out like my other partner's having a problem, you know? Mm-hmm. And it's just like that, I think it's important to name that, that like, I couldn't just, there was this fairness thing in me that was like, I can't just be like, you know, and also like training ourselves to just like be able to hold a boundary with our partner mm-hmm.

And hold a boundary in our relationship.

 I think it's just important to name that too, that holding those boundaries is not only for me, it's not only for you, it's for them as well. Right. And, and it's important for all people involved, you know?

Fer: Right. [00:25:00] Because when you're like freaking out and your partner comes back, back late from the date or something when they agreed that they would get, be there at a certain time or just doesn't respect those boundaries and you are already in that fight or flight.

Yeah. It's like you kind of lose all mm-hmm. Ground, you know, and you're just like, oh my God, this is, I don't know, you know, I don't know what to trust. Like, you know, it really erodes trust. It's just really difficult to. Kind of come back from that almost. Mm-hmm. Like, then you, then you become, suspicious every time.

Yeah. That they are out and like, are they going to break the boundary again and again? No, no. Shade to people who have broken boundaries, because that also happens. Yeah. We,

Bella: we've messed up.

Patrick: No,

Fer: yeah. No, we'll get

Patrick: to that. But is it just like, comes down to integrity, right? Like, it's like, am I my word? Am I being my word for myself, for my partner, for my other partner?

Like, am I in integrity?

Bella: Right.

It, you know, this is like the most embarrassing and like hard [00:26:00] thing to talk about in some ways, but also that's like a hundred percent worth the juices and like the meat and like the truth really lies.

yeah, I would read a book on polyamory and I'd be like, oh my God, love is infinite. I totally agree with that. And then I would get to the moment of things are actually happening and my nervous system would totally collapse in on itself. Right. And for somebody that's never experienced that before, it is a crazy feeling.

It is really hard to be on your own and like self-regulate.

Speaker 4: Mm-hmm.

Bella: It's for the first, you know, for your first few times. It's a wild experience. And I, I've learned so much about the nervous system. It's a

Patrick: bubble bath. It's gonna be fun. Yeah. Just,

Bella: just

Patrick: breathe, call a friend. It's fine.

Bella: I, it was wild because I, I've learned so much more now.

I mean, it's a very similar to experience, to like dying or being attacked. Right. We don't know the difference as humans. Like when you get activated that

Fer: Right. The fight or flight.

Bella: [00:27:00] Fight or flight fully kicks in, you know, and I, I had never experienced that before, ever. Because I, like I said, I had been in control or like had some power in these dynamics.

So, yeah, I really lost myself in many ways. Like, I lost myself in like, what, how do I come back to myself? How do I, like, what do I want in this? And it took, it took some time and like these really, really challenging and beautiful conversations afterwards of like, what do you need? You know, what do you need to give yourself?

What do I need to give myself? Um, and also there's an element of like, we were long distance, so bodies, body regulation, like is

Fer: he couldn't hug you.

Bella: Oh my god. So important. Right? And I was like, single, like this single girl living in. Mexico City. Right. Which is like this big [00:28:00] activating city. and so I didn't really have another partner to go to and like, be like, can you hold me?

So it was a huge lesson, like magnificent, giant lesson of standing up for my own boundaries, asking for what I need from a new partner, right? Like being like, I need you to call me at this time. This is really what I need. and understanding that I need to learn how to, how to regulate myself, how to come back to myself, how to scream into a pillow, how to all of the techniques that I've started to learn now or, you know, continue to learn.

yeah. Yeah.

Fer: Can you share some of those? 'cause I know you're also a relationship coach now. Yeah. And I'm sure that now you, you know, even teach people that mm-hmm. Which I'm glad that you are sharing. It wasn't always like this. Mm-hmm. Because some other people who might find themselves in that situation.

Yeah. Which is probably the most common thing, right? Like your partner is on a date. Yeah. And you're freaking out and you're like, [00:29:00] theoretically I love polyamory, but practically it feels terrible.

Bella: Yes.

Fer: Right? And, and, and when you're in fight or flight, it's almost like none of your usual tools work. Mm-hmm.

You know, it's like really difficult. So what, what have you learned? Yeah. Or what did you learn during that time? Totally. To do, to self-soothe or, or come back to yourself as you were saying.

Bella: Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for asking that. it is, you know, the, one of the reasons that I was really excited to come on this podcast and talk is to my younger self of if somebody is like, finding themselves in a place where they're like, I want this relationship to work, but oh my gosh, I keep getting activated and I wanna like light something on fire, you know, I really wanna talk to that person.

I really want. Feel that person because I was that person. And, the things that I've learned, you know, like really it's okay to ask for what you want and need. And if that person can't meet you, it's okay to like draw a [00:30:00] line and say, well then, you know, maybe we're not primary to really ask for what you need and stand up for yourself.

Huge, huge. And another thing of like self-regulation is just recognizing that if you're really activated, if like if I'm really activated, it takes me like two days to come back to myself and maybe I don't have that hardest conversation with my partner when I am a hundred percent charged. Right.

Fer: That's a great one. Yeah.

Bella: Burn. I would say 70% of the anger off like by. Hitting a pillow, like turning up your music as loud as you can and dancing, you know, going on a really intense hike, like moving your body, getting into your body however you want to. and I wish I had a friend to tell me that at the time because I was just like full charge, calling my partner or wanting to resolve something.

Fer: Yeah. And I think that's also why non-monogamy can be so powerful because it teaches you. [00:31:00] For any type of situation where you feel activated, it doesn't have to be your partner being on a date.

Mm-hmm. But my first instinct before was also, oh, let me go to Seth. Let me go to my mom, let me call a friend. You know? And I've learned to self-soothe. Mm-hmm. And I have a, a, well, it's not my method, but I teach people, I don't know if you've heard of this meditation teacher, Tara Brach, but she has this thing called Rain.

I don't know if you're familiar with that, but, you know, I have a version of that that I teach my clients. And, you know, I'll, I'll link the. Episode for that in the show notes. Mm-hmm. I have a Patreon episode that's like what to do when your partner is on a date, but like doing that rain exercise of kind of just, okay, recognizing I'm feeling this way.

Mm-hmm. Then just allowing yourself to feel it, but also importantly, like at the end, the, the end is nurture. Right. In the nurture. It's basically like being your own best friend. Mm-hmm. And being like, you are doing great. It's normal to feel this way and you know, like, this is gonna pass and whatever. And like patting yourself on [00:32:00] the shoulder.

Mm-hmm. Like when you do that. When I started doing that, and I don't even think it was in the context of non-monogamy necessarily, but in the context of relationships, I was like, this is so empowering. You know? I know that in the moment it sucks when you're feeling uncomfortable. Mm-hmm. But when you come to the other side and then come to your partner and have like a calm conversation because even though mm-hmm.

You still have that 30% you've done your work on the other 70, you feel like, oh my god, like. I'm a, I'm a I'm an adult now.

Bella:  if you tend towards anxious attachment style, like I do, anxious attachment, wants to solve the problem right away, wants to have the conversation right away.

and so I had to start to notice myself when noticing is a huge part of it. Like when I wanna be like, oh my gosh, we should talk about this right now.

Fer: That sense of urgency. It's kind of like,

Patrick: it was very urgent.

Bella: Yeah, it was.

Patrick: That's my 2 cents.

Fer: We made so many mistakes and, and I'm grateful for them, honestly. Now I am. [00:33:00] but we, we started to understand that writing out our agreements ahead of time, and I, I did make a work, a worksheet for this, you know, like, and it's very clear, it gets really thorough and times like how, like is there an allotted amount of time, you know, like spent with another partner.

Bella: Do you want to see, do you want your heart to be involved with this partner? Like, you really start to write down, and it, and it can be a beautiful exercise. It doesn't have to be scary. It can be like, oh my gosh, and it can be hot. You know, you wanna make out with what, like what's your dream scenario? You wanna, and you have

Fer: that worksheet that,

Bella: yeah, yeah.

And I can, I can link it. I can share it with you. Yeah, we can link it. and it's open for, for people. So, because I really do wanna help people who are struggling with this, how do we start to open up so you, you can really start to write down your agreements and make a beautiful. Check in of it. Right.

And then you can share that agreement form with another partner and be really clear about like, my, I'm [00:34:00] not allowed to involve my feelings in this. And it's written down here.

Fer: Right. Well, I think that that's a hard one too.

Bella: It's a very tricky one. Follow

Fer: I spend

Patrick: the rest of the time on this.

Bella: It's a, it's a really tricky one.

I would, I, yes, it's that, that's not what I adhere to, but you know, whatever your agreements are, you can say these, these are them, they're written out. And because when you're in a moment of heat, like we literally went back and referenced a document that we had written out together once and said, oh, we missed this.

Or like, oh, we, we'd written it out. But like, it's changed for you now.

Fer: And do you remember what it was that you had written out

Patrick: time was a big thing for sure. Like time. How much time? Time.

Bella: It's, it's very practical and I'm not a very practical person. I'm not gonna lie. That's why I kind of needed to make the. This. Mm-hmm. Because I'm a very feelings based person, and that got me into a lot of gray muddly areas that I'm like, I need to write down these feelings and

Patrick: agreements.

Bella: Yeah. Agreements and take it from the heart and really put it into practicality. So for example, I need you to call me [00:35:00] by 8:00 AM your time. That's 10:00 AM my time. But I wake up around nine. I'm waiting an hour.

Fer: Yeah.

Bella: By noon I'll have a total panic attack. Like you, you need to, you need to call me and just say, I love you.

I'm thinking of you. I'm not leaving you that, and that's just, that's a timeout thing. Right. So, so it, it came from the heart first. I need to know that he's not going anywhere. What does that mean in reality?

Fer: I find that fascinating because. On the one hand, you'd say, okay, well you guys are long distance.

Patrick: Mm-hmm.

Fer: So whatever time you you're spending with Oregon partner is not going to take time away from Bella. So, you know, sometimes, sometimes I like criticize that because I'm like, well, if it's not taking time away from you directly, then what do you care? But then now that I'm thinking about it, I'm like, well, you care because if, if you, your nervous system is in overdrive the whole time he's with someone else.

Mm-hmm. It is affecting you directly. Yeah. You know what I mean? So [00:36:00] even though you, you wish you could be like, oh yeah. Like, spend as much time as you want with them. You don't want to be two days with your nervous system hyped up and, and, and, you know, there's many ways of doing it. Right. Like you could have said, well.

Just don't tell me when you see her, right, because you're long distance. Which would, which would've been a way, but I understand wanting to know as well so you're not like constantly texting him or you don't, like, wonder if he's with her when he doesn't text or whatever.

Bella: I was at this time going through a lot of my own EMDR therapy with a therapist. Okay.

Patrick: She had professional

Bella: support. I had professional support and, I also got the advice that I would give to anybody, which is surround yourself with positive relationships that are alternative relationships, which is kind of tricky to find sometimes.

And surround yourself, especially as a woman. Get female friends who are, [00:37:00] ethically non-monogamous, positive. They don't have to be, they don't have to be practicing polyamory. They just need to look at you and be like. I really hear you

Fer: or like not assume that all of your relationships issues are because of polyamory, right?

Yeah.

Bella: Surround yourself with people that can hold that for you. You don't have to get rid of your old friends. You can keep them, but maybe just don't tell them everything that is deep, hidden.

Fer: Yeah. 'cause judgment. Like imagine feeling like you were feeling. And on top of that, receiving judgment. Receiving judgment from people like can make it really hard.

Bella: I mean, I became a relationship coach because I needed a relationship coach like me.

 I needed a therapist that wasn't telling me. Stop being polyamorous. You know that that'll fix all your problems. So what I've really spent the last five years working on is. Authenticity, figuring out what, what is your truth? What do you want to be polyamorous? And we, I [00:38:00] love going through tons of exercises, trying to figure that out together.

It's a really uncovering of like, who you are, what do you want? Because I had plenty of people telling me to not go on in this relationship. So I, I would've missed out on my now husband truly if I didn't surround myself with the right people.

That helped me figure it out for myself. and it, you know, is a true honor to help other people figure that out deeply. What is their story? What is your needs? What do you want?

Fer: Yeah.

Bella: Yeah.

Fer: And someone who has lived through it, right? Like you were just sharing how. You were, you know, calling Patrick. Yeah.

Freaking out about the date. Oh, right. My gosh. So you've been there, you've developed the tools to

Bella: Yes.

Fer: Help you with that, and now you're helping other people.

Bella: Yeah, I mean, I was, yeah, I was the crazy girl. I was like, oh my gosh, I am freaking out. And it took me a long time to understand, how to get through that.

And I, it's a, it's a wonderful honor to, to work with people on their nervous systems and figure out [00:39:00] what they want. because I have, like you said, I have lived through it. I have worked through it, and on the other side, my relationships have grown much richer, deeper, fuller, all of that.

Fer: Yeah.

Wonderful. Well, if listeners, if you're someone that's like freaking out right now, you know, we got Bella who's been through it, you know, I think, I think,

 that having someone that you know, really has gone through it can be super helpful. Mm-hmm. But going back to your story, so you guys were long distance, you were dating the Oregon woman, you were in Mexico, right? So,

Bella: mm-hmm.

Fer: How did you kind of decide, okay, we're a thing, we're gonna live together and be primaries and all of that?

Patrick: I mean, Bella made the decision to quit her job and move into my van. That was good. She, like I said, the van trip went well and so she, yeah.

And, and that was obviously a big step for her. And it was like, oh, now we're nesting partners in a like [00:40:00] 20 by 10 foot van. Mm-hmm. You know, and so we sunk in pretty quickly together to try and figure out what does this look like together? and yeah, I mean, I. There's a whole story there about like how the other relationship went.

It fell apart pretty quickly when, when that partner became the long distance partner, I was no longer, you know, I was no longer in that town. We moved outta that town and so it was like, yeah, that fell apart pretty quickly for the same reasons that ours didn't, frankly, it's just like how we were able to hold communication.

Fer: Mm-hmm.

Patrick: And so, yeah, once we were in the van, we ended up in the town. We now live in here in Colorado. And in

Fer: Boulder.

Patrick: In Boulder.

Fer: This unknown little

Patrick: place. Yeah. And it's like we, you know, we have an amazing community there, but I think, I think one thing to name,

 when we first got to Boulder, we, like we spoke about intentionally not just jumping into like dating anyone we meet. [00:41:00] And it paid a lot of dividends to be like patient, even though there's lots of availability of people that are living this lifestyle. And you know, we really tried to be a little bit choosy about how we entered the space.

Fer: Yeah. 'cause it's a small community.

Patrick: Exactly. And, and I mean, we hadn't experienced at a, at a play party right away where there was a, a very handsome gentleman who literally fell in my lap at the party. And I was like, he was, he was a bit dysregulated. And I like to say, sometimes men are so handsome, I'd kiss them right on the mouth, you know, and I, and sometimes I do.

And I was like, oh man, that guy was so handsome. I would've kissed him right on the mouth. And thankfully I didn't, 'cause it turned out to be like the ex-boyfriend of a friend of ours. And there's a whole story there, and it was just like a real great reminder of like, Hey, let's ease into this. We don't know who anybody is.

We don't know what their story is. Like we don't want to go running around and, and making mistakes in this community.

Fer: And [00:42:00] has Bella had another partner? Have you had another partner? I know that you, there was this woman, which we can get into that was Patrick's friend. Mm-hmm. And you connected with her at Burning Man. Mm-hmm. And then I know that you went and visited her in California. Yeah. But have, has Patrick had to deal with what you had to deal with, like you being on a date?

Yeah. And him, his nervous system freaking out and all of that, or not yet?

Bella: I don't want it to sound like, because we've only talked about this one relationship dynamic. yeah. I've also gone out with people and like spent time with, with others. I would say my capacity is much smaller than my partner's just like, My capacity for like energy and time spent and how long I can dance for, in many ways. He has a lot of energy, he has a lot of space, and I need to take care of myself in different ways.

 something to name is like, one of the biggest breakthroughs in our relationship was just getting to the point of like, I'm not leaving you. I'm here.

Fer: Mm-hmm.

Patrick: I [00:43:00] love you. And like, we're gonna figure out whatever we're gonna figure out. And it's just like even that language of like, I'm here.

Mm-hmm. I'm not going anywhere early on. And Bella engenders that in me like immediately. And she engenders it, engenders it in anyone she meets. Like you're just like, oh, this woman is not going anywhere. So maybe that calms from my nervous system. Maybe I don't, I don't have. As much. I think definitely there's been things that come up with, male partners of hers.

You know, like the, you know, it's like, it's interesting to sit with it and I really try and sit with it. there's been a one time specifically I'm thinking of where something came up and Bella really wanted to like, assuage me and like soothe me in a way. And I was like, babe, this honestly, it, it has to do with you, but it really is more my own stuff, right?

You know, like it's my own whatever, that I'm feeling inadequate or I'm feeling less than right now 'cause there's nothing. And, and it was like, there's nothing you [00:44:00] need to do right now. And that was even hard for her to hear, hear. I was like, there's nothing you need to do right now. I just need to be with this feeling.

And I was, you know, pretty mixed up at that moment. But it, for me, I'm lucky it passes pretty quickly. I know that I have an amazing partner. I know that like, I'll have an amazing life no matter what. And so it's not as bad now. She hasn't fallen in love with anyone. yet, but, you know, so far so good. So I hope she does.

Speaker 4: Mm-hmm.

Patrick: and yeah, and I think like also just speaking about the, the woman that you do date regularly, like it's amazing 'cause it's a friend of mine, so I like, maybe that's a little bit giving me peace. 'cause it's a way for me to connect with

Bella: and she's amazing.

Patrick: Yeah. With my dear friend in a way that like you never would've thought of, you know, like that.

Like my wife is now dating one of my good friends.

Bella: Mm-hmm.

Patrick: And that's just like unreal to me that that was able to be a possibility. Mm-hmm.

Fer: for sure. Yeah, I think that what you [00:45:00] are talking about, of realizing that it's your shit, I think it's important and also kind of the.

Reaction of Bella, of like, but I need to do something to fix it. You know, I, I think a lot of the work that I do with my clients is with getting comfortable with you, being uncomfortable themselves, and also getting comfortable with their partner, being uncomfortable. Mm-hmm. And recognizing, when my partner can help me and when I need to self suit, right?

Which is again, why I encourage my clients to do rain or to do, you know, other things before they go to their partner. Because often they first need to do their own work. But as the partner, it can be really tough. 'cause then you start feeling guilty, right? And you're like, oh, did I do something wrong because I went on this date or whatever.

And it's like, no, you didn't do anything wrong. And your partner can feel jealous and have a different, difficult time. And all you have to do is make sure that you're sticking to agreements. Make sure that you're giving reassurance when you can, but there's a lot of work that the par like your partner [00:46:00] has to do on their own.

And I was telling you guys about my relationship with Seth and how I really admired that about him. Mm-hmm. That he was like, yeah, it's difficult for me, but he would just kind of deal with it on his own. And yes, I would give him reassurance, but he was also kind of you too. Sounds like you were too Patrick of being like, yeah, thanks for saying that.

But like, you know, it's, it's, it's my own shit. But what do you do, you know, like, Bella, screamed into a pillow. What did you, what did you do?

Patrick: I mostly just push it down really deep and just don't think about it. Yeah.

Fer: Sounds

Patrick: like many, many. Yeah. It's doing a lot of work on that. That's the work I do.

Fer: Yeah.

That's a trend.

Patrick: Yeah, I mean, I, I, I think for me, I, a lot of these practices I've gotten more recently after doing like ISTA or something like that.

Fer: Yeah. By the way, it, for listeners. Yeah. ISTA is a tantric retreat, I guess you could call it.

Bella: sexual shamanic spiritual

Patrick: experience.

Bella: [00:47:00] Experience. Yeah. So, yeah, it's, you know, sexuality meets ritual, meets emotional release.

Mm-hmm.

Patrick: Yeah. So a lot of, you know, and I make the joke about pushing things down, but that's how I used to deal with things, right. And now it's more, okay, what do I need? Where, where does this fit? And like where, where do I need help from Bella, and where do I just need to sit with this and let it pass or push it out in pillow screaming, or, I don't know, go for a hike or.

What have you. So I think from, yeah, like from the jealousy perspective and from like the processing stuff that maybe not jealousy, more like inadequacy, feelings of inadequacy have come up for sure. it's like really working with that and like working with that with a coach and working with that in other parts of my life, like when I'm, I bring it up a lot in my men's circles.

It's like, you know, like I'm having self-worth issues or I'm, I notice that this is coming up in this other area of my life.

Bella: Mm.

And

Patrick: so like, just linking it in, for me it's been like linking it into other places and [00:48:00] really seeing that it's not just about, you know, this is the trigger that Bella's been with this other man and had a very nice time.

You know, but maybe that's just the trigger and that's not the cause of the problem. The cause is something inside me that is like, Feeling less than, or feeling of self That my, that I'm inadequate.

Fer: Yeah. And

Patrick: so how do I get that back in every area of my life?

Fer: Yeah. I think men's circles are really great because, you know, women are really socialized to talk about their feelings, but men aren't, right.

So having that space where it's like, this is a space where that's what we came here to do, it pushes you to be like, I'm experiencing feelings of unworthiness and, and even just putting it out and having other men see you and hold that for you, I think can be very powerful, especially as a man, because again, I think women are much more used to kind of doing that and we rely on our girlfriends a lot more, but for men to get comfortable talking about their feelings, I think that men's circles are great.

[00:49:00] And you can start one yourself. I, I started at Women's Circle and then the partner of one of the women in my women's circle started a men's circle and it's just like, you can just get whatever. I have like six women in my women's circle, six women together and just like meet up.

Patrick: Yeah, I was gonna say, like, I just wanna name again, putting something in the group, like for folks that maybe don't feel like they wanna start one.

Like, sacred Sons is a really great organization and there's a few like it, that are definitely like worth linking in here.

Fer: Okay. Yeah. Put it in the show notes

Patrick: because I, you know, I did one here as well and it's, it's more like, oh there's, and there's something to be said for going to a group of anonymous men and like, connecting in that way and connecting in that deeply.

I really appreciate my men's circles 'cause they're men that are in my life every day. And so agreements around confidentiality and, and that sort of thing are super important and we hold it. In a different way because we know each other intimately and now we know each other's partners intimately and everything that's coming up.

So we talked about. [00:50:00] Things that you've learned, right? Like to self-regulate, to lean on your support systems? Mm-hmm. Or, or just learn through books and men's circles and courses and all of that to kind of deal with your, those feelings of insecurity of un unworthiness that come up, I think for everyone, our most people, exploring non-monogamy.

Fer: So it sounds like you're doing much better then. Mm-hmm. Is there anything that you struggle with at the moment or that you're working with, or do you feel like your relationship right now is mostly going smooth?

Patrick: I have an internal struggle of like, are we, you know, are we doing this in practice? Which was interesting 'cause like,

Fer: because it sounds like

Patrick: now you are mostly

Fer: monogamous

Patrick: right now. Now mean sometimes you feel like, like are we polyamorous enough?

You know, it's kind of silly. Like it doesn't matter. Right. But I'm also like, I do want to keep pushing up the bounds of like what we're up to and what's possible for me. Especially like, 'cause I do have a lot of capacity. So, and that can feel [00:51:00] sometimes like, like that original conversation. Like, Hey babe, like I'd like to date some people again.

Bella: Mm-hmm.

Patrick: You know, can I date your friends? You know, those sorts of things. And so, yeah, I think that that's one thing I struggle with is like, just like that contra, what somebody once said to me is like that contraction expansion thing. So sometimes I'm like, are we in a contraction phase? Which is totally fine, but like how do I get back to an expansion phase sometimes, is a struggle.

Fer: Like that, that step of, oh, I know we've been monogamous, but I kind of feel debug.

Patrick: Yeah.

Fer: Like I wanna be dating

and

Fer: kind of bringing that, I wouldn't say,

Patrick: say, I wouldn't say

Fer: Yeah. What's, what's going on.

Patrick: We're leaving out some details, but,

Fer: yeah. Okay. What's going on right now? Do you have any, any people that you're seeing now?

Patrick: Yeah. I mean, and I think that's what I was gonna get to at the second story. We, we are seeing another couple and it was amazing. Like, it seemed, you know, amazing. I, I said this to you earlier when we were talking, it's like, you know, we had this great crush on these two [00:52:00] people, and I, I recently saw a meme that was like a, in my forties, I now realize that a crush is just a lack of information.

Bella: That's so good. It's so true.

Patrick: So good. Because we love the language of crush. And this is something like, Bella was amazing. Yeah. Like when we first went to the burn, she's like. Really like, let's experiment with what we want. Like let's go find the thing that we want. 'cause we were talking about, I was kinda like, what happens if I meet a cute girl?

Bella: He was so funny. He was like, well if you wanna go off with another guy, you can, you know, you're free to do that. And I'm like, I don't what, like, I wanna like make out with like 12 people at the same time with you. Like, we're at burning man, let's do something weird. Like, I can go on a date with a guy anytime.

I wanna like make out with women. I wanna like, you know, like I wanna expand our capacity in weird, strange ways.

Patrick: And then, and then start bringing that back to our real life. Like, so it's like you get to have this like weird playground out there and then like, okay, what parts of this do we actually want to try in our real life?

And [00:53:00] so yeah, we started to use Language of Crush like like we love Camp Crushes. So on like Wednesday of the burn we're like, okay, who's your camp crush? Like male and female. And then now I, part of the reason I love this meme so much is it kind of blows that up, right? Like before we were like, this is great language.

It softens it for us and like makes it approachable and it's kind of cute. And then you can go tell that person that they're a crush. Yeah. And almost instant makeout every time. Like you're just like, you know, my wife and I were talking and you're our camp crush. It's like boom. Like you're making out within 30 seconds

Fer: tips for the listeners if you get one thing out of this episode.

Patrick: Tips. Yeah. Just people love to be your crush and I don't use my wife to pick up women. It's fine. so then. You know, we, we had this crush on this couple and we started and we fill and

Fer: Was it at Burning Man?

Patrick: No, we'd met them at a different festival, but similar circumstances. Mm-hmm. There was like a,

Fer: and you came up to them and you were like, we were joking and then you were,

Patrick: I mean, you know, we, [00:54:00] no,

Fer: actually, well,

Bella: Patrick went up to,

Patrick: should I, should I tell that story?

Can I,

Bella: yeah.

Patrick: Can I use that word? We already used that word. Yeah. You can

Bella: use the word.

Patrick: Anyways, I was running around with the pig nose on at a festival in New Mexico.

Fer: The famous, the famous

Patrick: pig nose that we, the pigg noses has like a,

Fer: we wore last weekend at

Patrick: the party I do with the septum piercing and all, and I was looking for my wife, who sometimes in the right circumstances I refer to as my slut wife.

And I was like, has anyone seen my slut wife? And this. Beautiful woman stepped outta the crowd and was like, well, you better find her. Before I do. 'cause I'm a slut girlfriend and I was, you know, instant crush, right. So I'm just like, this is, this is great. You

Bella: some, sometimes that line,

Patrick: some

Bella: people are like,

Patrick: whoa.

In some circles it's, or like if we're at a, oh, I love if we're, oh, if we're at a sex party though, like people are like, oh my God, this poor guy has lost his slut wife. She's fucking some other dude. And he's just like, lost at this

Fer: party. I know they, I know they keep on trick. We, we got all the pickup tricks.

We didn't know that that was, these are, this [00:55:00] episode was gonna be about,

Patrick: so that's not what I'm trying to share. Trying tore, but struggles, not pickup lines. So yeah, we, we got into a relationship with these two and it's a long distance thing and we've seen them several times.

Fer: Oh, so you've like, have they come or do you go, where do they live?

Bella: We went to where they are. And then we met in Mexico, in

Fer: secret location.

Bella: We went to where they are, I mean, in San Francisco is, it's a big place. So we went to San Francisco and then a month or two later we all decided to go to Mexico together.

Fer: Okay,

Bella: nice. Which was amazing and incredible.

Patrick: and yeah. And how

Fer: long ago was that?

Patrick: Just a couple months ago.

Fer: Oh, nice.

Patrick: And then mm-hmm. Yeah. But I mean, the issue comes up that. You know, all of a sudden it's like we fall out a communication, you know, and, and it's like, wait, what? Like what do I need here? And like, what, what is my right to ask for? If somebody says, oh, I'm not great at [00:56:00] responding to texts, or they don't have time, it's like, but all of a sudden it's like, what am I, you know, kind of rights here?

You know? Like what is it, what is, what is common courtesy too, and mm-hmm. And, and so that's been really tough to deal with is like, oh, what, what, you know, dealing with, ultimately what I'm pointing to is like dealing with a breakup in another partnership. And I think you've shared about like having a similar issue, like you're trying to deal with this breakup, you wanna deal with it with yourself, you know, you want your partner to understand as well.

'cause they're a huge Part of your support network. And so it's like, and, and at this point, I'm not even saying it's a breakup. There's just like a complete lack of clarity and communication. And so it's like I don't know what's happening.

Fer: Mm.

Patrick: And that is so weird for me in this space. 'cause I'm like, I thought we were all trying to be good at this. Yeah. You know, and we're trying to, and then all of a sudden it's not, you know, and so

Fer: yeah,

Patrick: that sucks and you just feel a little let down or whatever, but at the same time it's like, oh my God, what's going on for that other person?

Like, what are

Fer: Right? Like we don't know what's going on with them. Yeah. But, but also it's like just at text, Hey, this is what's going on with us. That's why we haven't, [00:57:00] right. Yeah. Yeah. I'm totally on that camp 'cause I'm like really big on, and then probably maybe in an exaggerated way that if like a message goes unanswered or like a comment that I made, go, goes unaddressed or whatever, I'm like.

Yeah, I feel dropped or something, you know, and I hate that feeling. but I also understand that people have lives and, you know, especially like people who have kids or whatever, you know, like it's, you can't expect perfect communication all the time.

Patrick: Totally. And communication's one thing, and then it's also like, okay, well how much, like, how much of this I, and I'm super lucky, I'm able to share a lot of it with Bella.

'cause we were all involved in this together. So it's been an, but it's just been really interesting. Like, what are, what are my rights in this? Like what, what can I expect in terms of my needs being met from someone that is long distance? And then also like, what is, what do I wanna share with my wife? What do I wanna just hold for myself?

Fer: So it's

Patrick: complicated.

Fer: So it sounds like Bella is not having that experience herself.

Patrick: what I [00:58:00] would say about it is that it has been asymmetrical. So our experiences of this are very different.

Fer: Mm-hmm.

Patrick: And that's been wild too, you know, so it's like she's having a totally different experience because it's four people trying to relate and that's wild.

And it's, you know, I wouldn't trade any of it for anything. 'cause it's just like, oh, these are, you know, we like to say all the time, like, these are my problems. Like, I would choose this over monogamy problems all the time. You know, like, I would choose what's going on now, which is fraught and fresh over, like, not being able to name a crush, you know, to my partner not to be able to be like, Hey, that girl at camp's really cute.

Bella: I think what you said is really beautiful of like, we're choosing our life and like I get to choose the fact that I get to have make outs with people when I want or not.

And the,

Speaker 4: I mean,

Bella: or more than,

Speaker 4: yeah. Like, I'm just like, I think we've done more than make,

Bella: gimme a just little credit. It's just me. No. Yeah. We, we get to live like this beautiful, really sexy life and [00:59:00] I love that. And it comes with other people having different needs, having different expectations, having different, just totally different people.

And it, I think sometimes I get kind of like, oh my God, I just wanna go back to my partner. 'cause I love him and he, like, he, I know him and, and we've worked through all of these things and there's other people in front of me all of a sudden. And I'm like, I dunno, this person, I don't know their communication style.

I don't know. so I think it's the, the, the struggle is just like pushing that edge and being like, it's okay to mess up with this person in front of me, this new relationship because they're a new relationship and trusting in myself that I'm going to get back in communication with them and I'm going to lead in a heart-centered way and I'm gonna mess up and it's okay.

Fer: Yeah. And it's also. Easier to do that when you do have your safe space. Hundred percent. Which is your, your partner. Right. And I think exploring from that place is a lot easier. Like, I'm so grateful [01:00:00] for all the support that I had from Seth. I was going through the breakup with John, or in general through my relationship with John.

I'm like, I don't know how I would've done this without Seth. You know? Totally.

Patrick: I, I mean, I totally agree. Absolutely. Having you as a support is amazing. And also like, I, you know, it's like a lot of times it's a bit like going to your monogamous friends and asking for advice, right? It's like, well, of course you're trying to have more than one relationship at once.

You're, it's never gonna work. You know? It's like, oh, well, but nobody's crying for Patrick 'cause he is got a beautiful wife.

Speaker 4: Right.

Patrick: You know? And so it's like, but it still hurts. Like, fuck, you know? Oh yes. Like, and it's like, so, you know, you've got Seth, but like, you have to break up, like you broke up with John and that hurts.

Like, fuck

Fer: Yeah.

Patrick: And it's not. Just like, oh, but you've got this other fallback. You know, it's,

Fer: yeah, no, because it's totally different than when you have a support system. Like I remember, you know, I told my sister about the breakup and my sister adores me and, and is super supportive and, and then, we talked [01:01:00] like a couple of weeks later and she's like, oh, how are you and I, and I'm like, well, I'm still like really depressed from the breakup and all of that.

And then she was kind of just like, oh, that's right. Oh my God, sorry, I didn't like check in on you. You know what I mean? It didn't even cross her mind as if, if I had broken up with, you know, not even with Seth. 'cause that's obviously completely different. We've been together seven years. But, you know, with.

If I just had had one boyfriend for like a year and a half like I was with John, like all my friends would've been like, you know, super understanding of that and, and wanting to talk and asking about it and, you know, and then yes, you, you don't have that support network. And then you're like, well, but I do have my partner.

And then your partner is like, okay. But also I have feelings about your feelings about the breakup, right?

Bella: I have feelings about your

Patrick: feelings. Have feelings about your feelings

Fer: always.

Bella: But yeah, I mean, it's like a beautiful, it's a beautiful problem to have, I think at the end of the day. And [01:02:00] I would choose it over and over again.

And I choose you. I choose you.

Patrick: We've been really positive, spinning like crazy people. Hey, we're like,

Bella: this is great. Yeah. I mean, it, it's though like, it's so hard.

Patrick: Oh my God.

Bella: But we love each other.

Patrick: Crazy.

Bella: I know. It's really great. I, I don't know, it's kind of crazy. It's like a, I think, you know, some people would hear that and be like, I would never choose that. And like, yeah. More power to you, you know, like Absolutely. Yeah.

Fer: Absolutely.

 I always end my interviews by asking what would you tell to a public curious person?

So that could be, what would you tell to yourselves, you know, when you were starting the journey? Or just to someone who's new to non-monogamy or more generally speaking, final words of wisdom.

Patrick: I think the biggest shift for me was like, twofold was like claiming my own, like non monogamousnes

And again, like [01:03:00] not, not wanting to put like intentionally not wanting to put a label on what it would be, but just knowing that monogamy wasn't for me and being like, I'm not doing this because of a partner. I'm not doing this because of whatever. It's like something in me, whether it was identity or orientation or like just wanting to eshoo the norm.

I just like claimed it eventually and that's what led me to somebody that fit so well and somebody that I was able to create something with so well. So it's just like that final, like claiming of my own identity and knowing that like, you know, monogamy is not for me and I don't know what it's gonna look like to, to be non monogamous, but I am, I'm gonna state going into everything that I'm not, I'm not gonna do monogamy.

Because you can always change your mind too, right?

Fer: Yeah. But tuning in with yourself and being honest, you know, no matter how different it might be from what your partner wants.

Patrick: Yeah.

Bella: I would say for me it's, committing as crazy as it sounds, [01:04:00] Choosing, committing whatever word you wanna use for it. with polyamory, I think you kind of need to commit more than, you might think and say, I'm going to choose this lifestyle like you said, or I'm going to choose this person and that person and I'm going to try it on fully.

And in that time bound, time bound time bound, time bound. so for example, for myself, I said, I'm going to move in to this van with this man and I'm going to be trying on polyamory for, and I gave myself six months. I said, I'm gonna, like, no matter how much my nervous system acts up, I'm really gonna try this on.

'cause I just wanna try it on, for six months and then I'll check in with myself. You know, so not saying like, I'm gonna be polyamorous forever. It's like giving yourself these time bound agreements, with your partner, with yourself. And then the last thing is just surrounding yourself with [01:05:00] people who can't support you, whether that's a therapist, a coach, but also just friends who, like I said before, are positive to e and m life.

and if you can find a relationship that you admire potentially in, in e and m world, but surround yourself with pos, like look around you, like do you have positive relationship examples around you, monogamous or not, but just find really positive relationships to surround yourself with.

Fer: Yeah, I like that.

And that's, why I also interview couples that I feel like they're doing it. In a healthy way. And that can look many different ways, but you know, if people want examples, they can check out the podcast. If they want support, they can reach out to you, Bella. Mm-hmm. Yes. for support as a coach, which I will make sure to, you know, add that link in the show notes if people wanna connect with you.

and yeah. I mean, there's so many resources and communities out there, so I, I love that. And also the time bound thing. Mm-hmm. Because I think that [01:06:00] sometimes people freak out about making a decision or having an agreement, and it doesn't have to be six months. It can be we're gonna try this for a week or for a date.

Yes. Or for whatever. And like, that doesn't mean that that's gonna be the agreement forever. We're just like trying it on for size and then

Bella: Absolutely.

Fer: After reassessing. I was just talking to some clients about that and they were like, oh, that's right. That feels good that it's not forever.

I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Just one date. And we, we come back and we talk about it and then we decide, you know, so, so I like that. Or it can be six months or whatever, you know, depending on what you're committing to, but

Bella: Yeah.

But I like that. Thank you guys. This was so lovely. I love this conversation. Thank you so much. Thank you.